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Concentration Camps in America?

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I’m sometimes amused and often depressed by the crazy things that those on the extreme left and the extreme right come up with in their endless quest for grand and improbable conspiracies. But when they find something they agree on then I know that we’ve really moved into that special altered reality where the only thing that protects our reason is a well-fitted tinfoil hat.

The latest cause celebre of the fervent fringe is the idea that the all-oppressing state under BusHitler™ is building concentration camps all around the nation in which to imprison dissidents and political undesirables as part of their agenda to create an eternal reich for the Bush dynasty and their political allies.

The starting point is the belief that recent rulings in the Padilla and Hamdi cases lay the groundwork for removing the citizenship rights of US citizens on the slimmest pretext. In these cases the precedent was established that if you take up arms against the US you have essentially forfeited your citizenship and can be treated as a foreign combatant. This isn’t an entirely new idea. It’s been a basic principle of how convicted traitors are treated since the nation was founded. From this foundation they then extend the argument to extreme lengths and reach the conclusion that the next step is to take away the citizenship of anyone deemed anti-American by the government. Then those people lose the protection of the Constitution and it’s off to Gitmo-style detention for an indefinite period for them. Before you know it black vans will pull up to the houses of John Conyers and Juan Cole and they’ll have hoods on their heads, electrodes on their nipples and their feet in buckets full of water.

This theory goes hand in hand with the idea that there is a program for the construction of ‘secret’ camps all over the country to intern these hundreds of thousands of new political prisoners. The idea that these ‘concentration camps’ exist originates in a nugget of truth. The Department of Homeland Security and/or FEMA have indeed begun construction of camps. This hasn’t been done in secret and it’s not a new plan. It goes back to the 1950s primarily as a way to deal with a mass displacement of population or the need to quarantine a great many people because of disease. President Bush even mentioned it at the recent conference on the Avian Flu. These facilities are designed to house large numbers of evacuees in event of a health emergency or natural disaster. Alternatively they can also be used by the INS to house illegal aliens prior to deportation, or if there is a sudden mass migration over the border because of a natural disaster or a major civil war in Mexico. Construction has been planned for 50 years, but apparently little progress has been made, despite a substantial $385 million appropriation for construction during the Clinton administration.

But if you put the plan for these likely very necessary emergency facilities together with the citizenship revocation theory, bingo you’ve got nazi-style concentration camps. But wait, it gets worse. You see, they’re being built by the source of all evil – Haliburton’s subsidiary Kellogg, Brown, and Root. Plus there’s another little known government program which would let the military use prison labor on their bases, and for that to work it sure would help if we had a whole bunch of political prisoners to put to work for them. Even more scary, some of these camps are accessible by rail – shades of the Nazi death trains full of Jews and Homosexuals. But wait, there’s more. Right after World War II the government issued various executive orders establishing procedures for organizing resources during a wartime crisis, including imposing government control of transportation and resources. Plus apparently there already are camps all over the country which are part of this system – such as long abandonned POW facilities from the last World War, military prisons, old storage facilities, abandonned missile ranges, even Area 51. Basically, anything fenced in and owned by the government must be a concentration camp waiting to be activated. If you believe the crazies they probably have enough capacity to lock up half the population of the nation. And don’t forget Operation Garden Plot a long forgotten plan from the 1960s to authorize the military to help in suppressing civil unrest which was put together in response to the riots in 1967 and 1968.

Put enough of these unrelated old plans and procedures together with an unreasoning fear of the administration and it starts to look pretty grim if your tinfoil hat isn’t on tight enough. It’s all hogwash, of course, and it’s just about as frightening that people believe it as it would be if it were actually true. It’s also a classic example of how the magical reasoning of paranoid extremists works. You take unrelated events which bear superficial resemblance to the things you’re most afraid of, put them together despite the lack of any actual relationship and you’ve gone an instant conspiracy.

Like most conspiracies this can be summed up as a fallacious syllogism, in this case one in which uses the technique of the undistributed middle, appearing logical, but actually failing to establish a complete sequence of logical relationships.

• Nazi concentration camps were camps.
• The US Government is building camps.
• Therefore the US government is building Nazi-style concentration camps.

The problem with this logic is that it doesn’t consider the fact that not all camp-like facilities are actually concentration camps in the Nazi tradition and that it’s actually possible that things like refugee camps and quarantine facilities might serve a real and legitimate need.

It doesn’t help that (inexplicably) respected figures like Professor Lawrence Tribe go on ABC’s Nightline and say things like:

It bothers me that the executive branch is taking the amazing position that just on the president’s say-so, any American citizen can be picked up, not just in Afghanistan, but at O’Hare Airport or on the streets of any city in this country, and locked up without access to a lawyer or court just because the government says he’s connected somehow with the Taliban or Al Qaeda. That’s not the American way. It’s not the constitutional way.

This hardly bears even a passing relationship to the real world. Picking up less than a half-dozen active terrorists who took up arms agains the US is pretty far from a mass revocation of citizenship and indefinite detention program. When relatively mainstream figures start to pick up on these theories and irresponsibly perpetuate them as if they are established facts, they legitimize them in the minds of people who aren’t likely to look at them closely enough to spot the fallacies and just believe what they are told. This may work well to advance their political agenda, but it’s irresponsible and dangerous.

It’s bad enough that there are lunatics who do the research to build the elaborate web of pseudoreality which supports a conspiracy theory like this. But it’s a much more serious problem that there are so many people on both the left and the right who hate the administration so strongly and so irrationally that they are predisposed to take the conspiracy theories seriously without looking at them at all critically. There is an increasingly common mindset which seems to always assume the worst, and be willing to believe almost anything so long as it reinforces their belief that the world is falling apart around them.

Treating this sort of far-fetched theory as if it is real can be very dangerous. It distracts from smaller but much more immediate threats posed by the increasingly powerful state. We’d be much better off worrying about day to day perils like property seizure under eminent domain or drug forfeiture laws or the erosion of our national sovereignty or insane pork barrel spending on Capitol Hill. There are scores of little government excesses which whittle away our rights every day. These are real dangers which we might be able to do something about if we weren’t wasting our energy and our efforts freaking out over far-fetched super-conspiracies which exist mostly in the imagination of some very creative, very troubled and unfortunately very convincing nutcases.

—-

For more on this subject from the fringe left, check out this Buzzflash article from Maureen Farrell or this article by Nat Parry. To balance it out don’t miss the the unique view of this issue presented by Michael Rivero on the extremely crazy right.

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About Dave Nalle

  • tommyd

    Dave, you lose credibility by slamming those people who question government moves and motives as “extreme left and extreme right”. That being said, the fact of the matter is that the US Government/UK/Israel are currently setting the stage for total war in the Middle East, or in other words, World War Three.

    When and if another terrorist attack occurs in the United States along with the commencement of WWIII and a military draft, America will be in absolute chaos. There will literally be 100’s of 1000’s of Americans aggressively protesting and/or in open revolt against the government’s nefarious actions. What do you think the US Leviathan would do to these people??

    It’s not beyond the possiblity that the fascist US would readily and quickly imprison Muslims, dissenters, war protesters, draft dodgers, etc. I think the government is preparing for something BIG.

    Be careful Dave, you just might get what you wish for.

  • tommyd

    To back up my “conspiracy theories” check out this link from mainstream MSNBC:

    Then tell us we’re paranoid.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    TommyD, you are a perfect case study in the wilfull self-deception I’m talking about in this article.

    You so want the world to be run by evil conspiracies that you’ll believe the most farfetched things just because they legitimize that belief.

    I think it’s some sort of psychological complex, rather like masochism, where you only feel validated if you’re under threat of government oppression 24/7. It’s the secular equivalent of the fundamentalist belief in an impending armageddon.

    Dave

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Damn, Tommy. I forgot to mention the incident mentioned in the MSNBC report. It was referenced in one of my sources, and it certainly fits into the pattern of minor bits of unrelated information that can be cobbled together into a crazy conspiracy.

    BTW, here’s the key quote from the article:

    “All reports concerning protest activities have been purged,”

    As in, it was a mistake and we corrected it.

    Dave

  • tommyd

    Sure Dave, the records have been purged. Sure they have. Trust us at DoD, not the kooky conspiracy theorists.

    “Government, like fire, is our most useful servant, if fully controlled by us, its citizens! And government, exactly like fire, becomes our most destructive master, if not fully controlled by the open majority of its constructive, working citizens!” – George Washington

    Remember George Washington, Dave, not your hero George W Bush and his Federal Big Brother Leviathan.

    So tell me, who’s the conspiracy theorist here?

  • Dave Nalle

    You can’t control the government if you aren’t able to interface with it in the realm of reality rather than the realm of fantasy.

    Dave

  • gonzo marx

    Mr Nalle sez…
    *In these cases the precedent was established that if you take up arms against the US you have essentially forfeited your citizenship and can be treated as a foreign combatant. This isn’t a new idea. It’s been a basic principle of how traitors are treated since the nation was founded.*

    incorrect…

    even a Traitor gets his Rights under the Constitution and is innocent until proven guilty

    as far as i am Aware, the ONLY times this has been different in any way has been after Congress has made a Declaration of War (as per the Constitution/War Powers Act)…and even then, it has been considered a “mistake”

    example : japanese descended citizens during WW2

    just a Thought, and all that’s needed

    Excelsior!

  • http://jeliel3.blogspot.com JELIEL³

    BusHitler™… just move one letter around and we get something more accurate ;-)

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Point taken, Gonzo. Traitors do have to go through due process before losing their citizenship. The Padilla case is sort of unique, and it’s a precedent, but what it’s not a precedent for is taking away the rights of people in the general public just because they don’t get along with the administration.

    Dave

  • gonzo marx

    but it IS a precedent for detaining a Citizen , without due proces, for YEARS on a mere accusation by the Government

    and, no matter how you want to slice it…

    THAT is a fucking crime against the Republic

    nuff said?

    Excelsior!

  • Dave Nalle

    Absolutely, Gonzo. The vanishingly rare instances where that happens are absolutely unacceptable and should be dealt with and resolved immediately. However, the existence of a tiny number of such incidents does NOT mean that the government is about to lock up every non-violent ‘dissident’ in a concentration camp.

    Dave

  • http://www.thebluesmokeband.com Brian Sorrell

    tommyd is wrong about Dave slamming “people who question [the] government”, unless you take it to be the case that ONLY the extreme right and extreme left question the government. I don’t believe that the article makes this claim.

    Furthermore, Dave questions the government in the following:

    “It distracts from smaller but much more immediate threats posed by the increasingly powerful state. We’d be much better off worrying about day to day perils like property seizure under eminent domain or drug forfeiture laws or the erosion of our national sovereignty or insane pork barrel spending on Capitol Hill.”

    And this is what I take to be the most important lesson in the article. Conspiratorial distractions, which in a strange way prey on people’s vanity, are powerful devices that serve to suppress talk about the bigger issues that appear in smaller print.

    The purported erosion of rights that alleged modern concentration camps represent pales in comparison to the deterioration of property rights and accessiblity (the American Dream?) that has resulted from our artificially inflated real estate market. It mystifies me that hardly anyone talks about this sort of thing. And this is only one example of what lurks beneath the superficial petty conspiracy spinning of “liberals” and “conservatives” — neither of whom are what they call themselves.

    Good on you Dave for making a point like this.

  • http://victorplenty.blogspot.com Victor Plenty

    To safeguard our freedoms we must recognize noncitizens have full rights, and make our laws reflect this fact.

    The idea that noncitizens lack rights strikes at the very foundation of the whole concept of rights. By definition, rights are an inherent quality of every human being, regardless of citizenship and independent of any government or law. To accept the idea that noncitizens lack rights is to move toward a concept of “rights” as temporary privileges granted by governments.

    This is the exact opposite of unalienable human rights. We may call such government-granted privileges “rights,” but that is really a misuse of the word. Real human rights are something nobody truly has unless everybody has them.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    And this is what I take to be the most important lesson in the article. Conspiratorial distractions, which in a strange way prey on people’s vanity, are powerful devices that serve to suppress talk about the bigger issues that appear in smaller print.

    Well put, Brian. I resisted using the cliche in the article, but it’s a classic example of ‘can’t see the forrest for the trees’ when you freak out over the remote and most horrible possible outcome and ignore the incremental abuses which impact you much sooner and in very real ways.

    Dave

  • http://jpsgoddamnblog.blogspot.com JP

    Dave, nice article. And I think we do spend too much time and energy on the far-fetched theories, and therefore neglect attention to the more mundane encroachments upon ourselves. However, at the same time, I blogged about conspiracy theories recently myself–and there are too many loose ends for me to write off a theory such as the ‘concentration camp’ allegation completely. Here are just two:

    Operation Northwoods. Those black-ops plans made it to the level of Joint Chiefs of Staff, but were thankfully rejected.

    Bush’s alleged suggestion to paint a US spy plane to look like a UN craft in order to provoke attack by Saddam.

  • gonzo marx

    Brian sez…
    *And this is only one example of what lurks beneath the superficial petty conspiracy spinning of “liberals” and “conservatives” — neither of whom are what they call themselves.*

    Quoted for Truth…

    the sheer audacious falsity in current political epistemology veneers the vapid Fact that the entire System revolves around personal greed in elected Representatives rather then the Ethic of caring for the People’s “general welfare”

    Victor sez…
    *Real human rights are something nobody truly has unless everybody has them.*

    Quoted for Truth…

    nuff said?

    Excelsior!

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ Elliott

    Lawrence Tribe was on Al Gore’s short-list of candidates for the USSC, wasn’t he?

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    JP, the thing about the two examples you cite, is that these are exactly the kinds of ideas that get thrown around in a brainstorming session at 4am as hypotheticals and then get quashed by higher ups or in the cool light of day. I’m sure even crazier things have been suggested and in some cases even acted on. Don’t forget they tried poisoned cigars on Castro as well as putting depilitory powder in his shoe powder can to make his beard fall out – and those were REAL covert ops.

    But the point is that 99% of the crazy stuff doesn’t get implemented, and that part of it which does is let through because it’s basically harmless or a no-loss situation – your basic hail mary play.

    The fact that some people in government have considered all sorts of nuttiness doesn’t mean that there’s a conspiracy out there brewing. The conspiracy nuts basically have their rational filters turned off, and every possible wild idea that ever got a hearing jumps to the top of their list and they assume it was acted on and is part of some ongoing plan.

    That’s no way to look at the world. In that worldview they cloned Hitler, there are Nazis on the moon and Judge Crater is a time traveller.

    Dave

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Lawrence Tribe was on Al Gore’s short-list of candidates for the USSC, wasn’t he?

    Now there’s a truly terrifying thought. Of the big-name lawyers I could live with Dershowitz on the court, but Tribe would be too much to stomach. It is interesting, though, that the really famous trial and cause-oriented lawyers almost never get nominated.

    Dave

  • troll

    a couple of questions:

    if one spends his energy rationalizing or denying ‘conspiracy theories’ does he not set himself up to miss the real ones as they come down the turnpike – think of the Reagan era end run around the Congress

    what does it take for a ‘plan’ (eg – for quarantine in the event of disease outbreak) to become a ‘conspiracy’ (to control dissent)

    -?-

    troll

  • http://blogs.epicindia.com/leapinthedark gypsyman

    Dave I have to say that you are most definitly the voice of reason on this subject. If I didn’t believe they were’nt able to think this far ahead, I’d say that these conspiracy theories were the true disinformation provided by the government, just to keep people from paying attention to all the problems you mention.

    The thing is, and this is the strongest arguement against any of the conspiracy theories as well, look at these guys, do you honestly think any of them can plot out any of those theories and implement them?

    Once again Dave, thanks for being a voice of reason on this; people really need to get out of their parent’s basement a little more often and stay off the Internet for at least a few hours a day.

    gypsyman

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    if one spends his energy rationalizing or denying ‘conspiracy theories’ does he not set himself up to miss the real ones as they come down the turnpike – think of the Reagan era end run around the Congress

    You shouldn’t just reject them all out of hand, but the rational person has to look at them and try to figure out if there’s more supposition holding them together than documentable fact. And when you look at something like Iran-Contra the conspiracy was really very simple and straightforward. It didn’t require a great many leaps to connect things together, it was pretty much all right there.

    what does it take for a ‘plan’ (eg – for quarantine in the event of disease outbreak) to become a ‘conspiracy’ (to control dissent)

    It takes an administration willing to become a dictatorship and with the power to basically override the congress, the courts AND the constitution. Despite all the excessive claims of the left there just isn’t an iota of evidence to support this accusation against the Bush crew. They’re too incompetent to be dictatorial in any real way plus they haven’t achieved anything like that consolidation of power. Don’t worry about the camps, worry about what they might to do gain the power to turn those camps to a nefarious purpose.

    Dave

  • Dave Nalle

    Dave I have to say that you are most definitly the voice of reason on this subject.

    Thanks, g-man.

    If I didn’t believe they were’nt able to think this far ahead, I’d say that these conspiracy theories were the true disinformation provided by the government, just to keep people from paying attention to all the problems you mention.

    The presence of the conspiracy theories certainly provides a context where government can get away with some things which they otherwise might not try.

    The thing is, and this is the strongest arguement against any of the conspiracy theories as well, look at these guys, do you honestly think any of them can plot out any of those theories and implement them?

    Bingo. Bush and his cronies couldn’t start a conspiracy to find their way out of a paper sack with a knife.

    Dave

  • http://adreamersholiday.blogspot.com Lee Richards

    Dave:
    Just wondering–You live on a fortified compound outside of Austin; who or what do you feel threatened by?

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Conspiracy nuts? Heavily armed, militant christians? Tinkers who want to ‘pave’ my driveway? Or maybe the teardrop tattooed homeboys who tried to rob the house while we were moving in.

    But the truth is that the house came this way and given the fact that I have a family and own valuables and live in a remote area, it doesn’t seem like such a bad thing to be surrounded by plenty of land with a good fence and a secure gate.

    Dave

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    I copied this from a different thread…

    “Where do they stand on straight, white men?

    I hear they’re building ‘detention camps’…”

    They are not the DINOsaurs or the GOP, but they are building detention camps. Most are built already. And the camps are not for “straight white men” or Arabs or blacks.

    There are presently “quarantine rooms” in almost all airports. Ask airport officials about them, and if they admit to their existence at all, they will tell you it is a preparation for the bird flu. But any room where you can be locked in from the outside is, for practical purposes, a jail.

    Let’s repeat that last line for emphasis:

    any room where you can be locked in from the outside is, for practical purposes, a jail.

    As Dave points out, they are FEMA. And FEMA is so busy building jails that they have lost their main raison d’être, “flood and mud.” Witness Katrina, flood and mud personified, and FEMAS’s performance therein.

    Now this has been going on for some time and is not just the product of the Bush administration. Pray tell, Dave, what is the point of all these detention camps? And don’t tell me that if I just lie down put my tooth under the pillow, and go to sleep and be a good boy, I’ll find a 10 shekel coin under my pillow in the morning.

  • mike

    Good article dave. By the way as someone said us/britain/israel is setting up the ttal war in mideast but wait if one looks carefully most of other eurpean countries had either tacitly or openly supported american invasion, so did most of mid-east refimes excluding iran and syria. Whoever crows about civil rights being lost in this country are self-deluding, you cant have security and at the same time not spy, u cant protect us without arrests, u cant protect without monitoring

  • http://www.markbellinghaus.com/ Mark Bellinghaus

    Thank you, Dave! For this alarming vision. Is it too late already? Where can I order one of those tin-foil hats, or wouldn’t be better to get a helmet instead?!
    Also Thank you, Ruvy in Jerusalem, for your comment. Very telling and deep.
    There is not one week going by in which this current President isn’t involved in a scandal! Just today – one of his aides, Claude Allen was caught for theft!
    Where are we going in this country? Does anybody care? When journalissm has become corrupt and people, like myself, have no other choice then using a blog – to warn others of a huge scandal, that is about to go around the world…!
    Disgusting.
    I still love this country, but it was better in the past, what is happening now, was created out of GREED!
    Like Gloria Steinem said, last night on “Real Time with Bill Maher”:
    “Better a President who makes LOVE than WAR!”
    Is it too late, already?

  • nitpicker

    This article reads:

    “This hardly bears even a passing relationship to the real world. Picking up less than a half-dozen active terrorists who took up arms agains the US is pretty far from a mass revocation of citizenship and indefinite detention program.”

    And picking up less than a half-dozen active terrorists would so overwhelm our court system that their trials must be secret?

    I have no sympathy for traitors, but I believe Americans have the right to know what their government is doing.

    That right is the key issue here.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    And picking up less than a half-dozen active terrorists would so overwhelm our court system that their trials must be secret?

    And what ‘secret’ trials of American citizens arrested for terrorism would those be? McVeigh, Nichols, Padilla, Hamdi – all of those trials have been public, covered by the media and well documented.

    I have no sympathy for traitors, but I believe Americans have the right to know what their government is doing.

    And the point here is that we DO know what the government is doing. All of the things which make up this conspiracy theory are documented. They all have legitimate purposes which are funded with public appropriations. What makes this such a perfect example of conspiratorial paranoia is that those promoting it say that the legitimate and public reasons are just a smokescreen and that there’s a whole secret and undocumented behind the scene plan which is what these camps and various laws are really for. It works great for them because they can say “look, here are the camps” and have solid physical evidence and then never have to back up how they determined that the use of these camps was something other than what was stated publicly.

    Dave

  • nitpicker

    Americans have the right to know what their government is doing.

    Dave thinks he knows.

    Ignorance is bliss.

  • Dave Nalle

    I certainly don’t know everything the government is doing, but in the absence of evidence, making things up based just on paranoia seems like a really bad course to choose.

    Dave

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ Elliott

    I listen to Art Bell from time to time. A lot of his guests are people who try to get the listeners to believe in their own kooky conspiracy theories. And I’m sure a lot of the listeners do wind up believing the tripe.

    The sad thing is, a lot of Americans are willing to believe whatever you tell them, as long as it is interestingly mysterious and also confirms their own irrational fears.

    Thank you, Dave, for being a voice of reason in the wilderness of the moon-bats…

  • nitpicker

    Americans have the right to know what their government is doing.

    No conspiracy here.

    Unless Dave wants to see one.

  • Dave Nalle

    RJ, you clearly don’t listen to Art Bell enough, since George Noory has been doing the show for almost two years since Bell semi-retired.

    If you want to hear REAL conspiracy radio, try listening to the Alex Jones show. You can find what 10 watt FM station in someone’s basement is broadcasting it in your area at http://www.infowars.com.

    Bell/Noory isn’t so bad because it’s mostly goofy and clearly ridiculous. What Jones puts out is genuinely dangerous.

    Dave

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Mr. Nalle, you still have not answered my question. Why is FEMA building all these detention camps? I don’t want to hear the answers of a conspiracy theorist – I know at least one in detail. I want to know the thoughts of the elitist pig in Texas.

    The building has been going on for several admininstrations now – it has not all been done on the Shrub’s watch. That means that this is not necessarily the Shrub’s ball game. And nobody knew about the bird flu in 1992. You pick it up from there, Mr. Nalle.

  • troll

    Ruvy – please tell me that you don’t think that they are for the Jews in the US

    troll

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Troll,

    What I thnk about this don’t matter very much. I’m as much in the dark as you are. The conspiracy theories I am privy to say just that, though. But I’m not pushing them. I’d rather, that if you left to come home, you left because you understood that the Almighty would do you in otherwise…

    It’s not entirely unreasonable that the detention cmps be built for Jews. Non-Jews in America have an image of American Jews as pretty well off. Whether you fit the image is not all that important. When I was living on the street and wanted a room at a Catholic shelter, the chif social worker rubbed his huge jaw as he asked me three times – “are you sure you’re Jewish?”

    But from what I’ve learned, there are too many of the camps to be just for Jews.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    And Troll,

    My idle speculations do not change the fact that our dear author has still not answered my question.

  • troll

    (Ruvy – no right of return nor any home now or in the hereafter for this semi-Semitic outsider…a Jew through paternal blood only – born and raised outside the Community and the Covenant…an abomination in the sight of studied men and G-d

    troll)

  • Earl

    Nothing new really, right wing Christian Identity groups were talk about this 15 or 20 years ago.

    This is just a rehash and been “just discovered” or Uncovered. Pay attention, this is old news

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Mr. Nalle, you still have not answered my question. Why is FEMA building all these detention camps? I don’t want to hear the answers of a conspiracy theorist – I know at least one in detail. I want to know the thoughts of the elitist pig in Texas.

    I didn’t realize you had asked this. Much of it is already provided in the article.

    The building has been going on for several admininstrations now – it has not all been done on the Shrub’s watch. That means that this is not necessarily the Shrub’s ball game. And nobody knew about the bird flu in 1992. You pick it up from there, Mr. Nalle.

    Very little of it has gone on during the Bush administration, in fact. The programs involved date back to the 1950s and 1960s. There are a number of different reasons for the construction of the camps. The original one was fear of an outbreak of war or disease within the US which would require evacuation of large numbers of urban civilians who would need some place to be housed. That was the concern of the 1950s and 1960s. Then in the 1970s there was concern that war in the third world might require the housing of large numbers of refugees, so the camps were maintained and expanded for that purpose. Today, as demonstrated by Hurricane Katrina, it’s quite possible that a major natural disaster within the US might make these camps necessary to house evacuated population. And finally, as President Bush has pointed out, in event of the avian flu or a similar threat, the ability to quarantine large populations is highly desirable.

    So there are many legitimate reasons why these facilities exist which have nothing to do with a political agenda. If there is a political agenda here, it’s pork barrelling, because these facilities – which are mostly converted former military bases – are a way to keep generating some revenue from those former bases for the states and communities where they are located.

    The reality is that most of hese ‘camps’ are more theoretical than real at this point. There are all sorts of sites which have been designated as potential locations for these facilities but which have not been maintained or gone through the conversion necessary to actually function for that purpose. It’s an idea which the government has paid lip service to in the interest of preparedness, but god help anyone who actually has to be housed in a former military base which has essentially been abandonned for 40 years.

    Dave

  • nitpicker

    Actually building construction 40 years ago was better than today.

    Dust off a few cobwebs and our troops living in tents in Iraq would welcome them.

  • Dave Nalle

    Last I checked we couldn’t move whole square miles of US property directly to Iraq, though that would indeed be a neat technology.

    Dave

  • nitpicker

    Our troops would welcome living in these buildings wherever they are.

  • Dave Nalle

    Well, a lady down the street lives in a house relocated from an abandonned military base – it was the base CO’s house – so perhaps it’s possible. I’m sure you’d like to pay the taxes necessary to pay the expense of moving bricks and mortar 3000 miles and reassembling them.

    Dave

  • nitpicker

    Our troops would welcome living in these buildings wherever they are.

    No need to move any bricks.

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ Elliott

    “RJ, you clearly don’t listen to Art Bell enough, since George Noory has been doing the show for almost two years since Bell semi-retired.”

    But Art comes on during the weekends!

    “If you want to hear REAL conspiracy radio, try listening to the Alex Jones show.”

    I believe I’ve heard of it. Right around 9/11, I was working with this guy who was a big fan of the show (I think it was that show, anyways).

    He once took me aside, and in complete confidence explained that all of the elites in the US go to some annual event in the woods in Northern California and dress up as giant owls and engage in human sacrifice (or something like that). He was whispering as he spoke, and looking cautiously from side to side. And he was being totally serious.

    It was difficult to extract myself graciously from that conversation, as you might imagine… :-/

  • MCH

    Re #48;

    Maybe you could’ve changed the subject by giving him your description of Max Cleland’s appearance.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Comment #40 – Just come on over with the family and let this old goat of a Jewboy figure out the details… It’s a great ime of year for a trip. It ain’t too hot. The boidies go tweet tweet, there is the beach at Eilat…

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    He once took me aside, and in complete confidence explained that all of the elites in the US go to some annual event in the woods in Northern California and dress up as giant owls and engage in human sacrifice (or something like that). He was whispering as he spoke, and looking cautiously from side to side. And he was being totally serious.

    You have indeed been talking to a disciple of Jones. That’s the Bohemian Grove Society, a group which Jones actually infiltrated and video taped. It’s basically a morale-building getaway for businessmen who run around drunk in their underwear and act like fratboys for a weekend, but the conspiracy freaks are convinced that they go into the woods to worship a giant owl statue and sacrifice babies to pagan gods.

    Dave

  • troll

    if you go for the all-American black ops conspiracy (camps included) and have the time to pursue it then you have the time for a good book sort of on the topic…let me recommend Pynchon’s Vineland

    Dave – the beauty of this post is that with statements like *There is an increasingly common mindset which seems to always assume the worst* it smacks of the same catchy ‘doom and gloom’/’our world is threatened’ emotion of a good conspiracy theory

    headline: Wacky Conspiracy Theorists Avoid Real Problems – Sap the Will of the Electorate…

    man the barricades – !

    fact is piss poor positive political participation in the US has been a problem for years and has little to do with this particular administration – IMO it reflects a rational assessment of our improperly so-called ‘representative’ government

    troll

  • troll

    (Ruvy – first ya tell me that yer ’bout to get the holy shite kicked out a’ ya…and then you invite me over

    not sure how to take that

    do you think the position of blacksmith for the Horses of the Apocalypse is open – ?

    troll)

  • Nancy

    Damn! They’ve infiltrated the Brownie Scouts again.

    But on a serious note, what are citizens supposed to think, when this administration keeps doing things like writing energy policies WITH the energy companies – and insisting it’s “secret”, claiming Executive Privilege – and secrecy – on anything & everything, whether merited or not; spying on US citizens, most of them, as the NSA admits, totally unrelated to any kind of terrorist connections – and insisting it’s secret; deliberately blowing the cover of an operative who IS supposed to be secret – and then defending itself by saying that what it knew, what it told, and who told it, are all “secret”; concocts a business sweetheart deal with Bush bedfellows from Dubai – in “secret”; and that this president, Adolph W. Bush, has unlimited powers to do what he wants, when he wants, and whatever he chooses to do is “secret”? What the hell are we supposed to think? I personally don’t think they’re building concentration camps for the Opponents of Adoplh W. Bush – they’d need someplace the size of Canada for that – but I’m not surprised, given the ample material BushCo has provided since Day 1 of his administrations, that others do think so, or ascribe other malevolent rationales to them. Like it or not, BushCo has from the get-go soiled its own nest with their furtive, shady, and unnecessarily secretive behavior: all secrets, all the time, and the public be damned is their very UN-secret motto which is about the only thing they haven’t kept secret. The entire Bush/Cheney coterie need to be behind bars asap. Or better yet, in a camp they can’t get out of.

  • Dave Nalle

    But on a serious note, what are citizens supposed to think, when this administration keeps doing things like writing energy policies WITH the energy companies

    They also consulted with over 100 environmental and consumer groups, Nancy. And who is better qualified to understand energy than energy companies? And might I note that the 5 energy companies they consulted with included the two largest manufacturers of solar energy equipment in the world.

    concocts a business sweetheart deal with Bush bedfellows from Dubai – in “secret”;

    The DP World deal was entirely public and was announced in press releases from the company far in advance of final approval.

    I realize you hate Bush a whole lot, but you’re just making stuff up here.

    Dave

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    (Troll,

    I pointed you in the places I feel are safe if you come over – Jerusalem and and south…

    And yes, we sure could use a blcksmith… ;-) horseshoes, if memory serves, can be used not only on horses)

  • http://jpsgoddamnblog.blogspot.com JP

    Nancy, I’m with you on that one–five years into the Cheney energy plan, we have access to Iraqi oil and yet gas prices are over $2 a gallon and oil companies are raking in record profits. And all of a sudden George Bush “discovers” that America is addicted to oil? Dave, I’m not impressed at ALL with the President’s energy strategizing, or its environmental protection. Not one bit.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    oil companies are raking in record profits.

    Except that almost all of them did not increase their percentage profit margin and a couple of them actually cut their profit share. The only reason their profits went up was that the price went up and since their profits are a percentage of price they went up too.

    And all of a sudden George Bush “discovers” that America is addicted to oil?

    Well, he did sign and energy bill last year which had the largest appropriation ever for alternative energy subsidies and research.

    Dave, I’m not impressed at ALL with the President’s energy strategizing, or its environmental protection. Not one bit.

    Compared to the absolute 0 done by previous administrations it looks pretty good to me.

    Dave

  • http://www.thebluesmokeband.com Brian Sorrell

    Dave, I’m curious about where those appropriations are scheduled to go? To universities or industry or both or where? I don’t know of any numbers on that (though I haven’t really looked either), so if you do, that would prove a useful reference.

    I would add that Bush has been no friend to nationally protected lands. I’ll try to dig out the reference (if you’re interested) to an LA Times article from a year or so ago that was quite informative on the topic. Additionally, the failure to close the loophole that allowed tax breaks on 6000lb. + vehicles (like the Lincoln Navigator), while incentives for hybrid vehicles were phased out was a complete joke. Solar panel incentives (tax breaks) are being phased out as well.

    If we could get the tax incentive that my wife’s family got on their gas guzzler (Navigator) for a hybrid, we could afford a hybrid right now.

    In any case, the fact that previous administrations have not done well with conservation either does not help Bush’s case. Heck, Kerry tried pushing coal again, like that was an answer to the energy dependence quandary. It’s ridiculous from all sides. So even if in the balance he has done more than others (which is a debatable point), there’s a REALLY long way to go.

    But you see: this is just my point from above — this (energy) is a meaningful issue that affects everyone across the board. Why isn’t this on every TV station and in every newspaper every day?? Instead we get drivel about Dubai and Cheney’s hunting accidents, to name the most recent ridiculous distractions.

    Pundits are so good at consumption.

  • Dave Nalle

    Dave, I’m curious about where those appropriations are scheduled to go? To universities or industry or both or where? I don’t know of any numbers on that (though I haven’t really looked either), so if you do, that would prove a useful reference.

    It’s way off topic here, but I have some of the info handy for the FY2007 energy budget.

    $148 million in subsidies for solar cell research.
    $150 million for alternative fuels development
    $330 million for ‘clean’ coal development.
    $30 million for battery technology research.
    $1.2 billion for hydrogen fuel cell research.

    These are all new initiatives over and above the ones already passed in the 2006 budget, which also included the whopping big tax credit for buying hybrid cars.

    while incentives for hybrid vehicles were phased out was a complete joke. Solar panel incentives (tax breaks) are being phased out as well.

    Where do you get that from? It’s just not true. Bush’s 2005 energy bill increased the top tax deduction for buying a hybrid vehicle from $2000 to $3400. This tax incentive will be in force until the end of 2010. He also instituted a new federal tax credit for home solar panel installation of $2000. And he’s pushing for even higher tax incentives in the future. Plus Bush has raised the CAFE standards for the first time in 20 years.

    The phase out you’re talking about is an indefinite schedule based on hybrid sales which will phase the incentives out gradually when manufacturers befin selling large numbers of them so that the prices come down through the natural function of the marketplace. It doesn’t kick in until they sell at least 60,000 of a hybrid model, and then takes 2 more years to fully phase out.

    If we could get the tax incentive that my wife’s family got on their gas guzzler (Navigator) for a hybrid, we could afford a hybrid right now.

    As of January 1st you can get a $2600 tax break if you buy a Ford Escape hybrid and you can still drive a SUV.

    But you see: this is just my point from above — this (energy) is a meaningful issue that affects everyone across the board. Why isn’t this on every TV station and in every newspaper every day?? Instead we get drivel about Dubai and Cheney’s hunting accidents, to name the most recent ridiculous distractions.

    Because most people find sound energy policy boring and want to be titillated or riled up about meaningless pseudo issues instead.

    Dave

  • http://jpsgoddamnblog.blogspot.com JP

    Dave, were you also impressed with the research facility Bush toured, where they had fired the workers due to budget cuts and reinstated them before the visit?

    Oil company profits come from supply and demand, the prices rose because supply was cut and demand wasn’t. I understand the basic economics. Hurricane Katrina wiped out a lot of refinery capacity, but after six months much of that is back online. These enormous profits should be reinvested in alternative fuel research to prevent further price increases. The anti-regulation freaks in the Bush administration would like every state to have a deregulated energy market like California, and look how well that turned out.

    Are all of Bush’s initiatives going to be funded? I’ll believe that when I see it. And when did Bush raise CAFE standards? Our mileage requirements are stuck where they were in the 1980s. Conservative groups constantly argue against raising the standards, saying the vehicles are more dangerous when made lighter, and leading of course to bigger SUVs which skirts the regulation. CAFE needs some serious work, and our technologically gifted country should be producing much more efficient vehicles than it is.

  • http://www.myspace.com/droitfob nicole

    For one bush sucks!I dont like bush,he caused the war thats going on now.And even though im only in 8th grade i no what im talking about.How can they even think about concintration camps again.Dont they no the histery of what happend!Or is bush dostupid to realize what happend to the people in 1944.Like anne frank.Before was jews.What now gay people!Only god Knows whats going to happen to now.Doent care about anyone but himself!

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    JP, the CAFE standards were raised in the last energy bill Bush signed, and they will be phased in to take effect by 2010.

    Dave

  • RedTard

    An alternative to oil will emerge when the market and scientific discoveries reach the required point. If JP is so intent that alternative fuels are the thing I suggest he invest all his money there, or go to work in that sector.

    As usual, the left is all about striking fear, lots of talk, and volunteering of other people’s money. An alternative to oil will be worth trillions worldwide, I think that is enough incentive to develop in itself.

    This is a free society all you commie liberals can donate your money to the commune as you see fit, no one is stopping you. Why must you always be intent on using the government as a weapon to control those you disagree with?

  • Danny K.

    Hey, i came home sat down and went on my computer cause im doing a speech in U.S history,I’m a 10th grader at my high school in oregon. its going to be about U.S History, but im changing it up a little bit and im gonna put in what the history books lie about, I’m going to tell the truth about america giving money to hitler and hitler not getting all his money by selling a newspaper.||Why are U.S history books all lies?||Secondly, It’s already been proven that everyone heard bombs going off in the twin towers to make them fall to the ground, some stuff about 9\11 is: A third building that never got hit also crashed to the ground( this building is keep out of mainstream media), secondly The airfroce is always patroling the coasts, they didnt come to shoot down the ” hi-jacked” airplanes because they were told not to. What was the airplane gonna do, shoot back?|| Ok, is all this stuff about 9\11 a lie? From reading huge amounts of websites i relised that Bush or whoever is telling bush what to do, let 9\11 happen so that homeland security could come into place. Prove to me that 9\11 wasnt staged by my goverment, find me a website, find me a book, find me a movie, Find me anything that proves the extremists wrong. I’m beggin for your help cause i havent found any yet, and the more i try the more i find out about what i dont want to know in the first place. Do i want to know about some ” astrologists and numerologists ” controlling the goverment. Some other things iv seen alot is this ” I JUST QUIT THE FBI(CIA,MILITRAY,ECT) AND I HAVE TO TELL U WHAT I FOUND OUT!” Like i read this thing that a guy wrote who claimed to work for the pentagon for 30 years and explained how america was gonna be all prisoners and taken over by 2001, its 2006 right now for me, and that hasent happend yet. Here are some questions on your personal opinion i would like you to answer if you could for me please!?
    1. Do you think there is going to be a huge upcoming war (ww3)
    2. Have you ever been an extremist?
    (Have you ever belived extremists?)
    3. Do extremists lie about facts?

  • http://andrewyu-jenwang.blogspot.com/ Andrew Yu-Jen Wang

    George W. Bush is indeed hated and despised. Bush may not be “self-aware” relative to his narcissistic personality disorder. A lot of mentally ill people are oblivious and/or in denial of their mental illness. But Bush is probably aware that he has psychological problems. Bush may quibble over semantics or interpretations or opinions about whether it would be appropriate or fair to say that he has psychological problems of “clinical significance.”

    George W. Bush is gravely mentally ill and needs help.

    It is on the Internet: people are “counting the days til Bush leaves office.”

    The American people can hardly wait til Bush leaves office. The presidency of Bush has been a nightmare for the American people and for the world. The narcissistic personality disorder of Bush has certainly contributed to what is almost his inability to do anything right.

    Submitted by Andrew Yu-Jen Wang
    B.S., Summa Cum Laude, 1996
    Messiah College, Grantham, PA
    Lower Merion High School, Ardmore, PA, 1993

  • timmy O truth

    dave nalle kool aid drinker and professional excuse maker for corruption. What a job!!!

  • timmy O truth

    the false left/right paradigm………a fools paradise.