Today on Blogcritics
Home » China to U.S.: “Shut Up” About Military Spending

China to U.S.: “Shut Up” About Military Spending

Please Share...Print this pageTweet about this on Twitter0Share on Facebook0Share on Google+0Pin on Pinterest0Share on TumblrShare on StumbleUpon0Share on Reddit0Email this to someone

Chinese ambassador to the United Nations Office at Geneva Sha Zukang told a reporter yesterday that "It's better for the U.S. to shut up [about Chinese military spending]."

According to an article from the Associated Press, the Chinese government, whose relationship with the United States has never been particularly amiable, has bolstered military spending with "double-digit percentage increases […] every year for a decade."

This alone doesn't seem like cause for concern. United States military spending has certainly increased, and we have boosted our efforts at "homeland security" following 9/11. There are valid justifications for increased defense spending, and perhaps with North Korea becoming an increased regional threat with their looming nuclear capabilities there is valid justification in this case. There is no justification, however, for being so tight-lipped regarding spending. While it's wise to play one's cards close to one's chest when discussing military defense strategies, it would probably be more of a deterrent to potential aggressors to disclose one's military capabilities to a certain extent. If an aggressor sees the nation as a formidable threat, the chance of conflict is lessened. (Although one might argue that 9/11 is an example of how this strategy doesn't always work, it's important to recognize that terrorists act out of very different motivations than national governments.)

While telling the largest world power to "shut up" may be a diplomatic faux pas, it's relatively harmless, though the rest of Sha's quote is enough to give one pause. "Keep quiet," he said. "It's much, much better."

Better for whom? one might ask. Though it's possible to interpret this as a veiled threat ("Shut up, it's for your own good"), I don't think the ambassador would be that tactless (but if he was so undiplomatic in the first place, it's hard to say). It's always possible that the issue can be one of language. The United States government has certainly never been known to employ a language of subtlety (obfuscation, perhaps, but not subtlety) and there is no reason to suggest that China would be any different.

We should also keep in mind that the ambassador's remarks were made to a reporter, not in a traditional diplomatic setting, and shouldn't be taken to represent the official stance of the Chinese government. While he may have been selected as a representative of China in the UNOG, one man's diplomatic faux pas shouldn't be taken as indicative of an entire nation or even an entire government. He went on to say that "China basically is a peace-loving nation," and that the military spending is an act of "legitimate defense" and "is not threatening anyone." This might lend credence to the notion that they are simply bolstering their defenses against the remote possibility of a North Korean attack, but their spending has been increasing steadily over the past decade, long before we were aware of the nuclear capabilities of North Korea and the recent missile tests.

This may be nothing to worry about in the grander scheme of things, but we should still take pause at these remarks. What is it that China doesn't want to tell us? Why is it "better" not to ask questions? That sort of attitude might work under the strict Chinese regime, but it doesn't fly with the rest of the world. In an era where Iraq can be "preemptively" attacked for refusing to comply with UN inspections, it doesn't look good for China to take a similar stance of non-disclosure. As I said previously, a government shouldn't feel obligated to reveal all of its internal secrets to the world, but these seem like simple questions to answer and there is something a bit fishy about the ambassador's response.

Hopefully this was a misunderstanding that will be corrected in the future. I would hope Sha would, at the very least, receive a reprimand from his superiors in the Chinese government. Even if there is no real threat, it still doesn't look good for China to have this sort of representation in the rest of the world. In this era of increased globalization, it's important for nations to learn to cooperate with one another lest they be left behind in the "new world order."

Powered by

About Warren Patrick

  • http://w6daily.winn.com/ Phillip Winn

    Great article. When I heard the Chinese response, I was reminded of the French response to certain Eastern European nations a year or two back.

    Generally speaking, I’m optimistic with China. I prefer to think that our high volume of trade is the best road to ongoing peace with them, as it’s hard to go to war with someone knowing it’ll cost your economy a trillion dollrs or so.

  • http://bryanmckay.com/blog Bryan

    Thanks, Phillip. What you described in your last paragraph is reminiscent of Thomas Friedman’s “Golden Arches Theory”, which, though disproved, still carries some real weight. The more economic interdependence there is on two countries, the less likely they are to engage in any sort of conflict. Interdependence is the key though, because I think there need to be mutual benefits to maintaining the peace.

  • http://w6daily.winn.com/ Phillip Winn

    I suspect that it takes more than a few Big Macs to make a difference. It isn’t franchisees that make the decision to go to war, after all!

    Seriously, the Golden Arches theory has always sounded like a belief in “Magic Capitalism,” and made me wonder if buying or selling something would cure warts, too. I don’t think capitalism is magic, but I do believe that people generally pursue what they perceive as their own self-interest, and if we can arrange things economically so that a nation perceives its self-interest as leading to peace, so much the better!

  • Marc Goldenberg

    Bryan –

    I heard the ambassador’s remarks in full on NPR. The remarks wew made in the context of naval expenses, and the bel;ief that China would need to exert force should Taiwan declare independence. I believe that sentiments about “one inch of Chinese territory is worth all our people” and “no matter who chooses to intervene” were also uttered in the same breath. Don’t you think the Chinese are probing for weakness in the US military posture as a result of our entanglements in Iraq and elsewhere, when we seem to be bogged down?

  • Howard Studstill

    Didn’t Mao say something about the world’s obligation to eliminate the US imperialist threat?
    This is their chance, while we are busy screwing around in other countries chasing illusory goals, they are preparing to pounce on us, most likely with the help of others. I’ve even considered they may use N. Korea to attack us so our attention is misdirected. Strategically it makes sense.

  • http://bryanmckay.com/blog Bryan

    Yes, obviously it takes more than one common interest (i.e. McDonalds) for such an arrangement to work, but I agree with the basic premise. I’m not a big fan of Friedman but I think he was on to something, though you articulated that “something” a lot better than he did.

  • http://bryanmckay.com/blog Bryan

    Marc, thanks for the heads-up regarding the full remarks. I was going on the limited information available at the time through the AP, but it looks like there is more complete information coming out at this time. I couldn’t find the NPR report you referenced, but this Russian news source documents some further comments.

    The United States have the right to settle domestic problems on its own, so let them not pry into China’s internal affairs. It is not a question of how big Taiwan is. Each centimeter of Chinese land is more important to us than lives of our soldiers.

    I’m not sure how accurate the quote is, as I’ve found different wordings on various sites, but this seemed to be the most complete rundown of the story thus far. I’ll update if any more information becomes available.

    To answer your question, Marc, I’m not sure if they’re probing for US military weaknesses as they are warning us to back off and not interfere with affairs between China and Taiwan. I’m glad though that the comments have been put into context, as without the reference to Taiwan it was very unclear where these remarks came from. I hadn’t even thought of Taiwan until reading these comments and the additional stories.

  • bruce

    It only becames a threat when the US sticks its nose between China and Taiwan. Overextending until collapse, this is how empires fall.

  • George Winston

    Mr McKays opinion and whole point hinges on the Chinese being “secret” about their military spending. He says “There is no justification, however, for being so tight-lipped regarding spending”. This kind of analysis is both arrogant and patriarcal.

    That the Chinese should report to mr McKay about their military endeavors puts the huge country in the role of a repository of children.

    But the Chinese are growing up and Mr. McKays “report to me” attitude is childish.

  • Joshua W. Harper

    Although the U.S. is worried about the Chinese military rise, realism must kick in. The Chinese are no where near production nor spending of the United States. The last time I checked, which was rather recently, the U.S. had spent nearly 520 billion dollars on defense as compared to the almost 82 billion the Chinese spent in 2005. The United States has high technological capabilities, the Chinese are using and purchasing outdated (20-30 year old) equipment from Russian suppliers. In regard to the Navy, it is barely afloat (pun intended) and nowhere near U.S. capability. They are spending this money on Naval gain in order to prepare for a future conflict with the U.S. (which has virtually surrounded China) over a Taiwan (a U.S. ally). Unless they can rival our technological ability, they will be defeated regardless of the fact that they have the largest military in the world. The only thing that should worry the U.S. right now is that China has replaced it as the number one location for Foreign Direct Investment (FDI) which will indeed increase technological capability in the military realm.

  • Tim Schacher

    China has what – 4+ times the population of the US and their defense budget was $30 billion in 2005? That’s only 5% of the US defense budget!
    So what if they’ve increased their budget 12% a year. It’s miniscule compared to the US of A.

  • http://bryanmckay.com/blog Bryan

    George, there is no reason for the Chinese ambassador to react so virulently to questions regarding their military spending.

    It’s not a matter of “report to me,” it’s a matter of nations being accountable to each other. That’s the whole point of the United Nations. If we can’t trust one another, it’s very difficult to build solid and long-lasting alliances. This sort of behavior isn’t going to win any friends.

    And as a final point of clarification, my “whole point” doesn’t hinge on the fact that China is being secretive, it hinges on the hostile manner in which the Chinese ambassador reacted, which was undiplomatic and suggested a certain degree of hostility.

    As far as your remarks regarding the Chinese “growing up,” I would suggest that perhaps your remarks are the arrogant ones. China is one of the oldest nations on the planet. Compared to China, we’re the ones that are just “growing up.”

  • Marc Goldenberg

    With all due respect to other posters here, don’t you think that both Iraq and Lebanon are object lessons on the hubris of relying solely on technological superiority in military operations?

    China’s leaders are exhibiting something that Americans should learn: the virtue of patience and a long term strategy. America, these days, is all about the quick fix…

  • Dean

    One threat China poses is supplying military weapons to those around the world who will be their surrogates in using these weapons against us.

  • Chas

    All of you keep apoligizing for China!
    Hope you all like rice

  • http://www.chancelucky.blogspot.com chancelucky

    I like rice, though not Condoleeza so much.
    Could you point me to the places where the other posters are “apologizing” for China? Thanks.

  • ROBERT

    ITS OBVIOUS THAT CHINA FEELS IT’S NEW POTENTIAL POWER. THEIR PATIENT & MITICULOUS. THEIR NEW POWER IS BEING FUELED ECONOMICALLY BY CORPORATE AMERICA. THEY STRIVE TO GAIN TECHNOLOGY, BECAUSE WITH THAT THEY CAN ACHIEVE DOMINENCE OR SUPERIORITY. THIS REMARK IS EVIDENCE OF THE CONFIDENCE THEIR ATTAINING. MAKE NO MISTAKE THAT THEY WANT TO PASS AMERICA ON ALL FRONTS & THANKS TO US IT SHOULD SOON BE POSSIBLE.

  • Zet

    I also heard the ambassador’s entire comment on NPR. He was commenting on our expressing displeasure about their military build up. Basically he was saying that it is none of our business. He made some statements referring to China’s population vs. our population and the military spending in proportion…. He had a very legitimate point. Who is the U.S. to comment on any one and how much they spend on their own defense spending. Lastly, he made no bones about where China stands on Taiwan. I suppose Abraham Lincoln felt the same way about the South, a hundred years ago.

    Our arrogance makes me very nervous. Has anyone ever considered why it is that we have problems with non-European countries that are autonomous and have a good defense system? Is there a non-European country that is well armed that we don’t consider as EVIL? Seems rather glaring to me.

  • Zet

    I think that what a lot of us don’t realize is that a lot of people all over the world feel as if we need to “shut up”.

    Unfortunately some people are so fed up that they are willing to make us “shut up”. Scary.

  • http://360.yahoo.com/arthurpendragone Arthur

    I have just returned from China, as a “Ya sure you betcha Minnesotan.” I have gained a much deeper understanding of the people of China than before. I frankly see them much more like us than ever. I have lived most of my younger life in Europe and the Middle-East as my dad was attached to NATO. Back then we lived on the economy. I have learned the posturing of governments does not give us a bigger understanding of their people.

    China simply wants us to treat them with respect as equals in the world at large. I believe that we both need to understand that we need each other. Taiwan (Formosa) is a much more complicated issue than we understand and we are kind of a bull in a “China shop” (pun intentional) and as such we need to be wise for the benefit of everyone. We don’t own the world nor has God given us the job of managing it, from Thailand to Mongolia we need to leave our dysfunctional roots and respect healthy boundaries. Before we start throwing stones, we had better realize we live in a glass house.

    The truth is if we learn to accept these people first as they are, we maybe have a chance of becoming partners in benefiting the entire world and each other. They still don’t know who we are, maybe we can avoid screwing up a potential friendship. We need to stop competing and learn to partner. When our sons are married to their daughters, we may occasionally say something like: “It might be ok for the Grand kids to have ice cream now and then.” Relationship gives limited ability to guide. We must be wise here.

    We need desperately, before it’s too late, to see the bigger picture and not destroy our opportunity for friendship, like we did in previous generations. This is a “New Day” folks, let’s greet it for what it is.

    Arthur

  • Jack

    Bryan, im not sure if i understand your point on how different nations trust each other. since when did we decide that the only way we trust another country is by knowing how much its military spending is? and how should a nation’s military spending affect our relationship with it? it almost sounds like you are saying that if a country’s military spending is not published all over the news then its not an accountable nation. i hardly believe that this is the point of the united nations.

  • http://bryanmckay.com/blog Bryan

    Jack, let me try and clarify my stance a little. It’s not so much the particular issue of military spending I’m worried about, but rather the attitude of the Chinese ambassador towards the United States’ curiosity. There were many appropriate ways he could have fielded the question, but he chose one that was wholly inappropriate. If people want to start talking about acting childish (i.e. comment #9), let’s start with one nation telling another to “shut up.” It sounds more like a fight at the playground than international diplomacy.

    It’s understandable to not want your countries finances plastered all over the news, but the comments of the ambassador were directed at the United States, not the reporter (who wasn’t even an American).

    Another reason this is different than a minor nation is that China is a member of the UN Security Council alongside the US. Perhaps it’s arrogant of the US to expect an answer from China, but the ambassador’s response was even more arrogant, displaying a complete public disdain for the US. That’s one thing coming from a regular citizen – I’m all for freedom of speech in any capacity – but when you represent an entire nation, it’s irresponsible.

  • MT

    Given our current situation in the Middle East, this comment (to “shut up,” which I first heard on NPR) seems fitting. So China has upped its military spending… Not sure I agree necessarily, but the USA has no place to tell anyone to decrease spending in this area. Given that we — essentially unilaterally — are engaged in a war without an exit strategy or exit plan, I agree that it is “better” for the US not to comment on military spending. It is inappropriate for us to impose restrictions on others that we do not follow ourselves!

  • http://360.yahoo.com/arthurpendragone Arthur

    Brian, perhaps it is not so much as irresponsible as much as we are judging this from our point of view. If we consider their point of view, perhaps we can understand his words better. We keep threatening China over Taiwan. Perhaps if we understood that they have never viewed Taiwan as anything but their own property and that just because they couldn’t deal with the problem at the time the Shek government took refuge there doesn’t mean they don’t think it’s still their property.

    Think of owning a cabin up north… your kid goes up there and claims it’s his because he has a gun and powerful friends and is going to keep it. Whose property is it? Maybe we have pushed them so hard they feel like we are not listening and that is why he choose to speak like this.

    They view this as an internal family problem and it is most inappropiate for us to get involved in their family problem. Could it be that we don’t comprehend their culture.

  • David

    “Perhaps it’s arrogant of the US to expect an answer from China, but the ambassador’s response was even more arrogant,…..” I agree that is more arrogant, emotionally. But, is that a big deal of who is more arrogant when one person arrogants to another and the other arrogants back?

  • Bill

    Wow! Do we have to right to monitor and control every dam country in the world?

  • Michael

    Quiet right!
    The U.S. needs to shutup about the military spending of others, until they get their own spending under control.
    Borrow borrow borrow, and spend spend spend,
    on military power… that’s “the american way”!
    It needs to stop.

  • JohnA

    OK, It’s easy guys, and we have to understand it!!!
    Two things:
    First: The more economic interdependence there is on two countries, the less likely they are to engage in any sort of conflict. Interdependence is the key though, because I think there need to be mutual benefits to maintaining the peace. This is true. (from opinion #2)
    We all know that.

    Second: It is inappropriate for us to impose restrictions on others that we do not follow ourselves! (opinion#23)
    This second part is the one that goes against the first one (there’s no balance), and it is completelly our fault!

    So guess what…! Third: Chinese answer to US as a result…. “Shut up” ( I don’t like it, but I understand it.)

    Don’t sweat…be happy.

  • T R Jackobs

    It is not a threat but just a statement of facts. What can any one including the US do about whatever the Chinese are doing? Not knowing about it is good for American so that they can sleep well until china polietly requests them to leave Tiwan and let it become a province of china. If Americans have learnt anything from Vietnam the would not dare to do or even say anything against China.

  • the cob

    If unbridled, but not blind, patriotism makes you ill, you might wish to read this in the bathroom. The nation in which I have the most interest is mine, the United States. I have visited 24 other countries and find that their peoples are pretty much like us. They want shelter, food, clothing, time for some pleasure now and then. The root cause of international distrust lies at the clay feet of political leaders, not the general populace. Leaders lusting for political power, no matter the cost.

    I would like our problems solved before we “solve” those of other nations. We’ve had our Revoultionay War, we’ve had our Civil War; we should allow other countries to find their own way as we did, brutal as it may have been.

    When our congressional members posture and proudly state that we have a responsibility to introduce our way of life into other nations I cringe. What would our reaction be if some UN nation decided we were oppressed and wished to rescue us?

    No, isolationism is not the answer, but international agreements should be fair and equal. One example: The so-called free trade agreement with Mexico. In 1994 we had a 1.3 billion dollar trade surplus with that nation. In 2004 it was a 45 billion dollar trade deficit. Good for them, tragic for us.

    Despite the rosy pronouncements from congress, we are no longer the richest nation in the world and as more and more corporations ship jobs abroad thus steadily decreasing our production capacity, all most nations need do is to be patient. It’s only a matter of time before we economically implode.

    So it is that I’m not overly concerned about what other countries say about us, I am much more concerned what we are saying about ourselves, as though having once been the richest and most powerful nation on earth was some sort of crime.

    Well, if you can’t match someone’s achievement, I guess all you can do is to try to tear it down to your own inadequate level.

    If you’ve read that whole sermon…thanks!

  • http://www.chancelucky.blogspot.com chancelucky

    Actually, I don’t think economic interdependence prevents wars, it’s actually often the cause of wars.

    The various nations of Europe certainly traded extensively with one another before the EU….the American Civil War the two sides certainly had plenty of economic exchange and considerable familiarity. The American revolution was about excessive ties to England at least in part and the inability of the colonists to determine how things were traded, who they traded with, etc.

    I haven’t and can’t do the analysis but it probably has more to do with the balance of power within those economic relationships. Is it benefitting both parties, etc.

    I do think cultural respect and exchange do make something of a difference, but that one isn’t foolproof either.

  • http://bryanmckay.com/blog Bryan

    chancelucky, you’re right in that it can’t all be reduced to interdependence. I think one of the key parts of my original statement was that there had to be mutual, balanced benefits, which perhaps I didn’t stress quite enough. The former colonial nations (any of them, really) functioned under a sort of economic interdependence which crippled the colonies. Fair trade, not just free trade, is important.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer.php?name=gonzo%20marx gonzo marx

    point of Order!

    if you want to understand what China is doing… might i suggest “the Art of War” by Sun Tzu

    realize that they are applying it to economics as well as military stratagems

    Excelsior?

  • http://bryanmckay.com/blog Bryan

    Here’s a good quote from The Art of War relevant to the situation, Gonzo:

    if [the enemy] has no alliances, the problem is minor and the enemy’s position weak.

    Bad diplomacy is bad for the nation.

    I’m actually not sure which side of the argument you’re supporting though. There’s a lot in there that could go either way…

  • http://360.yahoo.com/arthurpendragone arthur

    Maybe it’s not a question of sides, Brian. Maybe we have to somehow learn to be on the side of the people and not the political organizations from any country.

  • http://bryanmckay.com/blog Bryan

    Uhh, Arthur, I’m pretty sure there are two clear sides here: (1) the Chinese ambassador shouldn’t have said what he did or (2) he should have. I’m not taking sides with the government or the people, but rather whether or not this PARTICULAR INCIDENT warrants cheers or jeers.

    Also, I know “y” and “i” are relatively close together on the keyboard, but please learn to differentiate.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer.php?name=gonzo%20marx gonzo marx

    not sure where i am on it Bryan…

    how about this..

    i KNOW the chinese are students of Sun Tzu

    i think that very few in the Administration are familiar with the work, much less scholars of the principles involved… and as an Entity, it appears the Adminstration is completely clueless that others may be using it as a playbook

    possibly because the political agent (Rove) is determining policy from the Machiavelli playbook instead

    but i digress

    dew neh loh moh

    Excelsior?

  • http://bryanmckay.com/blog Bryan

    Excellent, sir. I tip my (imaginary) hat to you.

  • Will

    Although it is unlikely Ambassador Sha is very familiar with American slang, “shut up” is very appropriate if it is interpreted that way because:

    1) It never ceases to amaze me that US politicans will whine about Chinese defense spending when the US spends more than the REST OF THE ENTIRE WORLD put together. Props to JW Harper (#10)
    TS (#11) should remember, however, that the yuan has much more buying power within China than it does elsewhere. So that $30B figure is grossly understated.

    2) The US has, intentionally or not, had a might makes right foreign policy since 9/11. China has the desire & the financial means to “bulk up” its military to the point where it will be a “player” in regions distant from its own borders – by the rules that we have set.

    3) Another thing that never ceases to amaze me is that US politicans will describe China as a military threat while knowing full well that the Chinese economy depends on exports to us.

  • Emanon

    China being intelligent is tring to build it’s econmy
    so it is as capable as the us to defend or dictate as
    we do. It will not be foolish enough to start a massive conflict unless it is sure of the outcome, it will continue to grow in strenth through trade with us and anyone else who will help it gain enough power
    to dictate it’s own future as it see fit. the only downside is if it continues to sleep with us dogs it will get fleas and like Japan it’s poeple will become more americanized and closer to global culturalization

  • http://360.yahoo.com/arthurpendragone arthur

    Alas, I am dust. Sorry to have offended you with the misspelling of your name Bryan. It wasn’t a typo, it was an artifact from being raised in a standardized generation. Sometimes when there are competing voices for my attention, I miss a nuance here and there.

    My comment was not meant to suggest that there is no side, but rather there are other sides that are equally important. While our ambassadors may think they represent their people, we may think differently. John R. Bolton, case in point. He may have the position, but he doesn’t share often my heart in a way I would desire it to be shared.

    I sense a growing disapproval with the diplomatic corps of other countries who seem to be speaking more harshly to ours. I wonder if we have violated the mores of acceptable behavior once too often. What goes around often comes around. Perhaps they believe that our actions have warranted their own and like a child we are being publicly chided. The Russians did it as well just a short time ago. Are we wearing out our welcome?

    I am an educator, the first thing I was taught to do when I see misbehavior is to ask myself what am I doing that is precipitating this behavior.

  • David

    US always critize everybody for every thing. China has no reason at all to threaten anyone. The only reasons I can think of this “shut up” remark is because US is not justified to critized on China’s defense spending when the US spends 100 times amount of money more than China. China might see US more as a threat than the US sees China. Simple math, US has 30000+ nuke warheads, China has less than 500. Even if you said China plans to use those, there is zero justification when US is the country that invades others. Also, I’m very sick of the US propaganda lately involving every single thing that comes out of China. Take the tibet railway for example, China did not create the railway just for money’s sake and destroy the environment. I didn’t know that China built the world’s first railway, this sickens me. US is the LARGEST consumer of oil, produces the MOST garbage in the world and spends the MOST money on military. AND THEY FEEL THEY ARE QUALIFIED to critic China? HAVE YOU EVER BEEN IN CHINA? PEOPLE LIVE IN PEACE FOR GODS SAKE, CNN and other US propaganda constantly feed their people with half truths to grow HATE on China. The purpose to go give a negative image to China before they have a chance to show its true self in Beijing 2008.

  • David

    Americanization is also key to this whole US domination thing. Thanks to Hollywood, American values are spread internationally (except countries that ban them) and brainwash people’s minds. If you associate theories from the article at the top of this screen, you can say that is ALSO a strategic military tool. Especially with strong words like FREEDOM accompanied with the AMERICAN FLAG showing in almost every subliminal message driven scenes. Many people living outside of US do not see the bad side of ACTUALLY living in the US. They don’t know that there are tons of poor neighborhood and ugly places. For example, Japanese people are so brainbashed by American media that they DREAM of traveling to New York City or spend a night with a Tom Cruise. These are ALL scripted in a way that subtly enough even the most typical of americans are blinded from. Living the American Dream they say, a simple sentence to cause millions of people trying to “escape” their country to seek for that dream.

    Thankfully, as an immigrant, I got “opened” up to see the truth from a friend of mine. I was also blinded once and believe only a white guy can be a super-hero. Just watch any movies involving chinese people for contextual’s sake (even only if they are cameos). Women are sex objects and chinese men are linked to “short”,”nerdy”, etc…all those qualities that would turn off a woman. Is that the truth just because Hollywood or CNN decides it is?

    I believe that the media is SO controlled in the US that one can only see the truth if they visited the country in conflict with their OWN eyes and judgements.

  • http://beaufjerkie.blogspot.com/ Jethro

    “The Chinese Ambassador to the United Nations Office at Geneva Sha Zukang”. Bryan, that in the scheme of things Chinese, is about as important as the guy that sweeps up the dog-poop around the Imperial Palace in Peking. On second thought the poop sweeper is more important.

    A slight exaggeration, perhaps, but said so to make a point.

    What is funny or thought provoking to me is your reaction to it and the comments it has elicited here.

    But I digress…

  • http://beaufjerkie.blogspot.com/ Jethro

    David. Thank You for your un-informed, mostly off-topic, rant.#42 and #43.

  • http://beaufjerkie.blogspot.com/ Jethro

    Bryan, I find it interesting and refreshing that a ‘minor functionary’ nay ‘apparatchik’, can be so John Bolton ‘esque’!.
    What candor! Give this guy some free reign.
    Do you really think he should be ‘reprimanded’ by his superiors? That would be sooo American! What Liberals usually ‘demand’ every time some government official says something off-the-cuff.
    Do we need this type of ‘censorship’?
    And Bryan do you really care how China ‘looks’ or ‘misrepresents’ itself?
    Please, let’s have a good look at China, warts and all. That would be like us, an ‘open society’. Good,yes?
    Same goes for every repressed society, North Korea, Venezuela, just to name a few.

  • http://beaufjerkie.blogspot.com/ Jethro

    Bryan, you didn’t mean ‘reprimand’ in the Chinese Communist way! Recall them for ‘consultation’ then take them out back and shoot them in the back of the head?

  • http://beaufjerkie.blogspot.com/ Jethro

    Bryan, now if you had expressed a desire for the diplomats explanation of his comments… Well, a little explanation would help, since WE Americans want everything ‘explained’ !
    Explained so that WE can ‘discuss’ ‘it’ in a more informed manner.
    Discuss and ‘understand’,
    and once WE have been able to discuss and understand,
    then to ‘change’ , ‘alter’ , ‘mitigate’ and/or ‘justify’ such comments in the ‘context’ of ‘our thinking / morality / agenda’.

  • http://beaufjerkie.blogspot.com/ Jethro

    Is it not elitist to comment? Must be some sort of American ‘trait’ (see David, Arthur et.al.,). I imagine that in China, Iran, Venezuela, Cuba, Saudi Arabia or North Korea you could get executed for commenting on said comment. I meant ‘reprimanded’.

  • http://beaufjerkie.blogspot.com/ Jethro

    Understanding the above, let us now ‘pretend’ that what we ‘discuss’ here ‘matters’.

  • http://beaufjerkie.blogspot.com/ Jethro

    A lot of farting into the wind if you ask me. ‘Important’ farting, nonetheless. So let us commence to farting.

  • Jason

    Don’t get upset with the Ambassador’s remark. China is merely worried that once the world knows how much it spends on military spending, the Western powers, in particular, will stop it from developing enough strength that is essential to protect itself from being attacked and bullied by foreign powers in future. (This happened in the first half of the 20th century.) The Chinese are interested in using sufficient military strength to prevent a repetition of the humuliating invasions in the last century. Now, China is using its military build-up to ensure that its economic strength and cultural influence will continue to increase globally. The best way to influence China and at the same time benefit the people in the republic is to love the Chinese genuinely and preach the gospel of Christ to millions of people there.

  • http://beaufjerkie.blogspot.com/ Jethro

    Marc in #13 writes, “China’s leaders are exhibiting something that Americans should learn: the virtue of patience and a long-term strategy. America, these days, is all about the quick fix…”
    Patience and long-term strategy? What is that Marc? Can it be applied here in America?
    Are you saying that we should become a totalitarian country like China? Is it not impossible here, unless you have one-party rule continuously for a number of like-minded administrations, for a policy or long-term strategy to be implemented? You were kidding! Right?

  • dave

    while i agree that the way the message was delivered was somewhat “tactless”, it does not take away from the fact that we (US) should hold our cards closer to our chest.
    It has been common practice for us to reveal what other governments are spending on their defense/military. while it is okay to reveal some non-classified information about weapon systems/capabilities, keeping the enemy guessing is always a great strategy.
    Or maybe this is just a mind game and a suttle way to re-affirm our position as world leader!!!

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    I am an educator, the first thing I was taught to do when I see misbehavior is to ask myself what am I doing that is precipitating this behavior.

    What a perfect indictment of the system by which we educate our educators that you should have been taught this and that you express yourself so ineptly.

    Dave

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Dave, ‘outing’ the Chinese on their military spending is entirely appropriate. Given that they are involved in all sorts of little military adventures directly or through surrogates in various parts of the world, repressing their own ethnic and religious minorities and constantly blustering about Taiwan and Mongolia and Tibet, putting them on an even footing with the US where such spending is public information, seems like the least we can do for or to them.

    Dave

  • http://beaufjerkie.blogspot.com/ Jethro

    Marc in #13 also wrote, “With all due respect to other posters here, don’t you think that both Iraq and Lebanon are object lessons on the hubris of relying solely on technological superiority in military operations?”
    Hubris – exaggerated pride or self-confidence often resulting in retribution.
    On the contrary Marc, I don’t think hubris is the correct term to use, since pride did not enter into the equation, ‘expediency’ yes, pride? I don’t think so.
    Self–confidence? If self-confidence had entered into the equation then we would have seen ‘carpet bombing’ instead of these ‘surgical strikes’ to limit the ancillary damage. And what has this accomplished? The war continues, the casualties increase, the will to continue the good-fight wanes. I agree, if you mean to say that we are using the wrong tactics. I think that if you cut off the ‘head’ of this ‘serpent’ the serpent (insurgency / terrorism / attacks-on-western civilization) will die. You have to ask yourself “what is the problem”,”where is the head of the serpent”, once you have answered that you can come up with a solution! Everything else is futile. Ergo, your “patience and long-term strategy” come into play.

  • http://beaufjerkie.blogspot.com/ Jethro

    #55 Agree…So P.C. #56 Agree…’outing’

    As re: #56 Can conformity to ethical behavior be imposed on a rigidly self-interested-centered paradigm such as Red China?

  • Howard

    A muscular rich high school student also a bully work out in a Gym everyday find out his skinny classmate is also working out twice a week. The first word pump out the bully’s mouth is Wwwwwhat?

  • http://beaufjerkie.blogspot.com/ Jethro

    I take it that the ‘skinny’ classmate is also ‘rich’ and is also a ‘bully’… because both these adjectives fit China to a tee.
    Your anal ogy fails if applied to America.
    Rich if you count the ‘peoples’ willingness to support ‘representative’ sponsored programs.
    In that sense ‘rich’ is inappropriate since Our Government cannot spend money like a ‘drunken sailor’ or like Red China for that matter!
    There is a limit to our largesse.
    Bullies don’t spend massive amounts of their own money or sacrifice their blood to achieve their simple goals.

    Good Samaritan would much better sum up our ‘character’ as a country – thank you very much!

  • Chinese

    US should “SHUT UP”, and “FUCK OFF” China.

    Why you are keeping killing other countries’ people EVERY SINGLE DAY, and spending more than half of the whole world military spending, but asking China to spend less on military? It is the same as saying “Hey Chinese, don’t protect yourself, so I can kill you guys a day as I choose”.

    I told you a story: When Birtish invaded China 120 years or so ago,in a small scale war, more than 600 Chinese soliders were killed , but only 2 British soliders were slightly injured. The reason is Bristish were using guns, but Chinese were using knifes.

    This is what American wants: You can’t spend money on protecting yourself, so I can kill you as I wish.

    Americans, you are brainwashed by your government, CNN etc rabbish media. WAKE UP!!!!

    Don’t tell me I am brainwashed by Chinese Communist Party. I hate them, but I think spending more money on defence is the only right thing they are doing!

  • http://beaufjerkie.blogspot.com/ Jethro

    Chinee, my friend. Old Proverb says “tail does not wag Dog”!

  • http://beaufjerkie.blogspot.com/ Jethro

    Chinee, my friend, why does the RedChinese government harvest body parts from its hundreds of thousands of political prisoners?
    By the way, how successful is the RedChinese pogrom of ‘One Child’ per family?
    By the way has your munificent RedChinese government figured out a way for Males to conceive children?
    By the way in the last ‘unplanned’ famine in China, how many Chinese people were sacrificed so that Chairman Who, Chairman Mao or their successors could buy more weapons?
    And do you get egg-roll with that order?

  • http://beaufjerkie.blogspot.com/ Jethro

    So Chinee, my friend, if I’m wrong about Red China… Please point out to me their most recent act of Charity. Show me where their actions can be construed to be that of a ‘Good Samaritan’!
    I would suggest to you my friend, that a Chinese has more to fear from Chairman Who and his goons than from any non-existent foreign threat! Or is that a concept too difficult to grasp? Can I get Won-Ton soup instead of the egg-rolls?

  • http://beaufjerkie.blogspot.com/ Jethro

    Philip, your comment “I prefer to think that our high volume of trade is the best road to ongoing peace with them…”
    Is that the price you would be willing to pay for ‘peace’ ?
    RedChina’s feeble/futile attempt at masquerading as a capitalistic hegemony mired in communistic dogma will Fail. Something has got to give. Will Capitalism or Communism survive or will some other form of subjugation come out of this illicit relationship? Your guess is as good as mine.
    Trade with US is a street that has alleys along the way. RedChina cannot subvert the subcontinent with its surrogate North Korea and not expect some form of retaliation.
    In this respect I suggest that the Dog stop wagging its Tail!

  • David

    Jethroyass, Thank You for your un-informed, mostly off-topic, rant.#62,#63 and #64.

  • Chinese

    Jethro, don’t want to argue with you, just one word: Stupid or naive.

  • Zet

    What is most interesting to me about the statement is that it seems to express the sentiments of the ENTIRE WORLD (our allies included).

    Our ignorance as a voting populous has actually resulted in a severly deminished status for our country (rightfully so). We vote on emotion. We are clueless about anything outside of what evokes media images (John Wayne, Rambo, good guys vs. bad guys, etc.) Our politicians know this so they tell us what we want to hear and commit havoc around the planet IN OUR NAME and tell us that we are generous liberators.

    Unfortunately for us, the rest of the world READS. They are well informed.

    China is in a situation right now to tell us to “shut up”. We have lost our status. Everyone thinks that we are a bunch of bumbling idiots (thanks to our fearless leader). China is now the second largest holder of U.S. debt, with more than $260 billion in U.S. Treasury securities…. Who do we think we are?

    We do need to “shut up” and fix the mess that we are in. We must elect people who are deserving of the great responsibility of leadership and governance. We must abandon the paralysing and numbing narcisim and obsession with patriotic imagery understanding that a great American is not one with a flag in his hand and a gaping hole between his ears. A great American is one who alert, is well read, who understands his world and takes his roll as a voter seriously.

  • http://beaufjerkie.blogspot.com/ Jethro

    #66 lame #67 lame er #68 lame assed

  • Zet

    While I hope this not to be the case, my biggest fear is that this statment may be a marker of the begining of the end.

    Its said that to everything there is a season. I am worried that in the past six years that we have made such a joke of America that we will not ever be able to regain the position of leader that we once held.

    Right now we are preoccupied with gays, “intelligent design”, prayer in schools, if Bush swaggers or walks, American Idol and Desperate Housewives… Is Rome sleeping? Since Bush took office in 2001 America’s trade deficit with China has ballooned to $200 billion, the largest bilateral trade deficit in American history. Does the Empror have clothes? While we hole allegance to our political parties, Rush and O’Rielly, the wealthy get wealthier and soldiers and over 200,000 innocent Iraqies die (Saddam is making a mockery of the court proceedings and Asama is producing more videos than P-Diddy).

    Are we leadership material? Does the world need to tell us to ‘shut up” and sit down somewhere?

    I heard this story on NPR on Thursday. Why wasn’t it plastered all over the networks and cable news outlets? Scary.

  • http://beaufjerkie.blogspot.com/ Jethro

    David, Chinee and Zet, since you are all so fond of being told off! I won’t disappoint you!
    Do you prefer the ‘vanilla’ version…Shut Up! Or the more dressed up version…Know You Role and Shut Your Mouth!

  • http://beaufjerkie.blogspot.com/ Jethro

    Zet: “Are we leadership material”.
    Why yes “we” are Zet. For starters, there are over 150,000 Leaders in Iraq and Afghanistan as we speak!

  • Zet

    Jethro: I wont get into a lot with you mainly because we don’t speak the same language. But I will say that your comments depict exacty what is freightening about Americans. The entire world thinks we are dumb. You don’t know it but your statements are EXTREMELY base. I realise that I wont be able to argue with you simply because you don’t have a grasp of what I speak of and you will spit back that mind numbing “talk radio” speak which weakens me… so on that front you have already defeated me.

    Forget the party politics and the patriotism. Just know that the rich are getting richer. You will never be invited into their ranks. Give up the flag waving and put downs of other good hearted Americans and practice good old fashioned deductive reasoning. Learn about other countries (not the propaganda that you have been taught… we are always the good guys, etc.) There is a HUGE world of knowldged out there that you have been prevented from learning. Freedom is not following blindly. It is taking responsibility for your roll in improving your world (country) especially when it is broken. We are screwing up right now. Help fix it. Dont just go along qouting rhetoric. That is what is exactly wha

  • Zet

    If I am wrong, I should be “told off”.

    Only a spoiled individual doesn’t expect to be corrected when they are WRONG.

    Spoiled = Rotten, useless, fowl, repulsive, to be discarded.

    We are not spoiled are we?

  • Zet

    Jethro:

    In Iraq and Afganistan are thousands of working class and middle class young people who are barely out of high school, most of whom could not afford collage and were promised an education and now find themselves giving their lives for the wealthy of our beloved land.

    If most of us kept up with world politics and events we would have never agreed to the idea “Iraqi threat” in the first place. We would have KNOWN that Sadaam was not affiliated with Al Qaeda.

  • http://beaufjerkie.blogspot.com/ Jethro

    Zet, what’s your point? Your ‘rambling’ is incoherant. Take your time to answer, let the effects of the pill you took this morning wear off before you attempt to answer. Try to concentrate on one topic. One subject. Concentrate. Try to make a point. C’mon I think you can do it! Try!

  • Zet

    Jethro: Sorry. We speak an entirely different language. We just wont understand each other.

    I understand your words but that is where it ends. I’m sure its the same for you.

  • http://360.yahoo.com/arthurpendragone arthur

    Hmmm… Where is the diplomacy here? I think we are here to examine the topic. I think it would be classy if we did so with an understanding that this is an international web site. Giving grace and space understanding that language is a difficult beast. In many parts of the world, being “In your face” and demanding. is only considered an inability to communicate. I think we need to start with acceptance here, from there we can develop understanding. We learn by sharing, not my forcing.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Unfortunately for us, the rest of the world READS. They are well informed.

    So, you don’t actually know anyone from outside the US and haven’t travelled at all either. Because trust me, there’s as much or more ignorance among the general populace of every nation in the world. It’s not a problem unique to the US.

    Dave

  • goku

    I think what the reporter said is absolutely appropriate. The US has become a joke, hypocrates in every sense of the word. Compare the military budgets of the US and China…there lies the answer. So I would say the same thing, “Shut the F*** UP America!!”

  • http://360.yahoo.com/arthurpendragone arthur

    Ok, well, I can see we are not exactly going to work these things out peacably… so…I think I will go to bed and let your folks enjoy your pain.

    “All we are saying…is give peace a chance.”

  • Chinese

    With no doubt, Jethro has been brainwashed.

    Your China is 30 years ago, it was true my parent generation has no food to eat, Chairman Mao has done a lot horrible things to make people suffer(but also did a lot good things beneficial to ordinary people). But now we are 21st century, WAKE UP!

    Just like comparing the China with the Amaerica 1,000 years ago, whne China was richest country, and there were a few monkeys jumping around in Amaerica. Does that make any sense?

    Just like people in US, and Europe, Chinese are working hard(or harder) to have a better life, to pay children’s education, to pay mortgage/bills … American government is rich, but the ordinary people are not. I don’t think you are richer than me – I am also earning >100K US Dollars salary per year, and I think you are just a unedicated ignorant American.

  • http://beaufjerkie.blogspot.com/ Jethro

    You know Chinee when I get cranky and my spelling goes to shit and I can’t string a coherent thought together. I stop what I’m doing; I call my house-servant and have her prepare some soothing Ginseng or Green Tea. Then cup in hand I’ll sit on a bench on my veranda or wander over to my Japanese contemplation garden, sit, sip and reflect on all the good things that God has bestowed upon me. Feeling better from this restorative, I then may go to my study, call my broker to have her figure out whether to exercise my stock options, or see the direction of oil futures for the next month. Then I go out for a quick ride in my Maybach. Before you can say Chop Suey I’m feeling 100% again.

  • nowwesee

    Before Ben Laden and the Iraqi rebellion, we had the world believing that we were invincible…we have lost the aura of invincibility, which is necessary to truly be a world leader…but more importantly we have lost the worlds respect.
    China is merely demonstrating that regretable fact. Leaders who lead with physical might “only” soon lose power. It is clear that we have done just that.

  • http://beaufjerkie.blogspot.com/ Jethro

    Gwarsh!
    Censorship rears its ugly head! Welcome back Bryan.
    Your thread has taken on a life of it’s own. Some of us stayed around just to keep this ‘orphan’ out of trouble.
    I see that my post did not go ‘unnoticed’ and was not appreciated. The curious can view my URL to see for themselves if it was ‘over the top’. I thought it was rather tame.
    Sorry to see such sensitivity among ‘adults’…but what can you expect in this crazy-mixed-up PC world we live in!!

  • Zet

    Dave:

    I’ve done extensive travel. The population that has the same access to information (even less actually)as we do is MUCH MUCH more informed than we are about the rest of the world. You may be refering to their ideas about us (Hollywood, etc.) I am speaking about an understanding of global affairs.

    You certainly can’t mean that your average suburban person male or female has a sense of what the world is like outside of a club med resort.

    In most countries the educated class is actually educated. They actually know something.

  • http://bryanmckay.com/blog Bryan

    Censorship rears its ugly head! Welcome back Bryan.

    Jethro, in all honesty, I’ve entirely lost interest in this thread and what it’s become. But having said that, I have nothing to do with any sort of “censorship” on this site, nor do I have any control over the comment section.

  • Chinese

    I have never been to US, I am not anti-America. I have met some very nice, smart Americans. I quite like them, and gave them a lot of respect.

    But some American do live in illusionary world, don’t respect other countries’ people, think US as the cop of this planet, think about WHAT IF I am rich … Welcome back to reality!

    Respect everyone, respect the differences, make the world a better place is everyone’s responsibility.

  • Zet

    Dave Nalle:

    Are you saying that the activities of the U.S. which include supporting candidates (future dictators) or funding over throws of “disobedient” leaders in other countries, is a matter that is openly shared??

    Also, the matter is not that China was irritated because we “outed” them. It’s that we had the gaul to express displeasure about how they plan and spend for their own defense.

    What country do you think has a right to tell us how to defend ourselves and offer objections and suggestions to our millitary planning and spending?

  • Mohjho

    To be unconditionally free from foreign manipulation is what holds the vast population of China together. It is what enabled Mao to unite the people of China under his banner of Communism.
    Please read an accurate history of the Opium wars. The Western powers and Japan carved up China like some third rate cheap fiefdom that it had become while forcing vast amounts of opium on an defenseless population .The Chinese will never forget or forgive this humiliation.
    If their ambassador use the term ‘shut up’, you can damn well believe that is exactly what they meant to convey, especially to the ‘bring em on’ leader of the free world.

  • james

    Yes, it is better for US to SHUT UP, and FUCK OFF.

  • Jonathan Asian

    Dear Americans, don’t be jealous of China. According to Lynch, the average Chinese’s IQ score is 105 while that of Caucasians is just about 100.

    Even though the U.S. military strength is far greater than that of any other country in the world, its potential for future economic growth is waning.

    Like the United Kingdom, the U.S. has been finding its political influence declining. Look at the increasing number of unemployed people in the U.S. and you will know it. Soon it will also lose its cultural and economic influence.

    Face facts and work hard. Stop being jealous of emerging powers or superpowers. Learn to be humble and gain the world’s respect.

    Respect Asians. They will be at the top of the world again.

  • pleasexcusetheinteruption12

    uhh john? unemployment in America is actually fairly low right now

  • James

    You know why unemployment in America is actually fairly low right now?

    So many soliders have been sent to Iraq, and some have died, amnd more will die.

  • Clavos

    Not so, James.

    The unemployment figures are based on total nonfarm employment of more than 144 million (as of July 2006), while the total number of US troops in Iraq is about 160,000, with about 2600 casualties.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    And not only is unemployment low, it’s at historically low levels and has been declining. It probably can’t actually go significantly lower unless we figure out a way to make the habitually unemployed want to get jobs.

    Dave

  • David #42 #43

    Jethro, uninformed? All my references are from ‘real’ world event covered by CNN… Well, I’m actually glad you say that I’m uninformed pulling stories out of CNN. Much of your topics are pretty much off-topic anyway, you are just another typical american who believes everything the TV tells you, perhaps also a war supporter too. I checked your blog, skimmed through it: “Lebanese civilian casualties, Lebanese terrorist-Hizbollah casualties. What’s the difference??” Jethro, are you ONLY good at using a rich vocabulary? Your blog just confirms it, a war loving imperialist. PS. Thanks for mentioning me by the way 😉

  • Jonathan Asian

    ‘Pleaseexcuse’ and Dave Nalle, do you really believe the published figures on unemployment in America?

    Find out how many factory workers have lost jobs because of competitions from foreign products. Find out how many qualified academicians have failed to get jobs that suit their qualifications. Find out how many people with Masters and PhDs have failed to get teaching positions in universities and schools even though they are qualified and excellent.

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    Jonathan, I’ve seen the unemployment, employment by skill area and every other figure you can name, not just from the BLS, but also from private research groups. Plus I can read the want ads. And I AM one of those ‘qualified academicians’. I could get a job teaching in a second if I wanted to go back to it.

    Factory workers who lose jobs to overseas competition need to retrain or move to where the work is, and most of them do. They ultimately end up with better jobs in most cases.

    The job market in the US has always been somewhat fluid, but for some reason people have lost the will to adapt to changes the way they did in the 1950s and 1960s when people changed jobs once every 3 years on average to advance themselves. Now people expect to get out of college and do the same job forever and get paid more and more for it every year while just filling space. It doesn’t and shouldn’t work that way. And really it never has.

    Dave

  • Chinese

    I am happy to see American unemloyment rate dropped, otherwise some American like President Bush, or some brainwashed Americans like “Jethro” will say this is China’s fault. I am happy to see an even stronger US economy, which will be beneficial to everyone including myself, and China can escape from criticism.

    Don’t just blame other countries, think about what your own country has done and is doing first!

  • crocodile_cn

    Dear Brayn:
    I feel that your translation of “one inch land is more valuable than lives of our soliders” is wrong. The sentence “Ning Shi San Jun, Bu Diu Cun Tu” has strong historical context tha its meaning word by word. Also, I feel that you over concern some issues in sino-American relationship. I do not want to state here in details because I personally do not like to speak too much in public.

  • http://bryanmckay.com/blog Bryan

    Croc, I wasn’t responsible for translating that quote, nor do I even speak Chinese. Blame the news source.

    But if you do have comments/criticisms, please do share them. I appreciate any feedback, especially if you have a contextual background. What is the historical context of the sentence in question, for instance?

  • michael Dong

    The Financial Times newspaper reported on July 15, 2005 that Zhu Chenghu, a major general in the People’s Liberation army warned that China was ready to use nuclear weapons if the US intervened to stop aggression against Taiwan. “If the Americans are determined to interfere … we will be determined to respond,” he said. “We Chinese will prepare ourselves for the destruction of all of the cities east of Xian. Of course the Americans will have to be prepared that hundreds… of cities will be destroyed by the Chinese,” he added.

    This is the second time in a decade, a Chinese General threatened to attack our cities with nuclear weapon.

    One may dismiss that these are just isolated comments. But hasn’t there been enough of these isolated comments over the years? It actually reveals an attitude that are pervasive amongst the brass and ranks of the Chinese Communinst regime. This is a malignant tumore that the world refuses to acknowledge because they are too obsessed and won-over by trade with China.

  • http://beaufjerkie.blogspot.com jethro

    Bryan re #87. You did not strike me as the type to pull a harmless little back-handed compliment. I did not mean to imply that you were the source; I was just rhetorically questioning the source of this censorship. Just interested and really couldn’t shiv a git one way or the udder.
    You don’t have control of the comment? Interesting!? So some dufuss jackass selectively decided to be the arbiter of the limits of the dialectic dialogue…ho hum, whatever.
    As regards you comment about losing interest in this thread, not hard to see why. Where one hopes for stimulating, one finds boring. One looks for solid reasoning and a regard for the language, one is met with repetitive wisdom regurgitated from the mainstream media with a butchering of the language so vile that the posters thread, leaves one to think that they are on both sides of their own argument.
    There are some interesting commentators here, including you.
    No, Arthur, you are not one of them. The last thing of interest to happen to a Minnesotan was the suicide of Garrison Keillor and I’m not counting the numerous ‘Prince’ name changes. The last interesting thing to happen in Minnesota was the movie location for ‘Fargo’(1996) and not a prequel in sight, alas. Sorry, that was North Dakota, wasn’t it! Ya,hey der! Fashizzle!
    My continued interest here, Bryan? Just that of a house cat toying with a mouse it has caught before it tires of its amusement. Meow

  • Clavos

    The last interesting thing to happen in Minnesota was the movie location for ‘Fargo'(1996) and not a prequel in sight, alas.

    Well, no, that would be difficult. Impossible, actually.

    Perhaps we will see a sequel one of these days, however.

  • IgnatiusReilly

    “the suicide of Garrison Keillor ”

    someone should tell him he’s dead.

    last interesting thing to happen to is Gov. Ventura

  • Jason Lim (Malaysia)

    As a linguist, let me tell you that ‘ning shi san jun, bu diu cun tu’ means ‘Even if we have to sacrifice (or lose) our army, we should/will not easily give up (or discard) any part of our land that we love and cherish so much.’ It does not mean that our soldiers are of little/less value. It means that the dignity of our country is priceless, and our people (particularly the army/navy/air force) are determined enough to protect every part of our beloved Motherland. Take a course on Discourse Analysis and you might know how to interpret it using relevant contextual information.

  • http://beaufjerkie.blogspot.com/ Jethro

    Dear Asians, you are destined to make the same mistake that Admiral Yamamoto commented, “I think we have woken a Sleeping Giant…”
    When Wal-Mart decides to source its products from a less strident and arrogant country, RedChina’s future empty factories can go back to making those funny little Mao military uniforms for Castro and Chavez.
    Average Chinese I.Q. score 105? Johnathan forgot to put in the multiplier. Best example is the Chinese Yuan in relation to the U.S.Dollar. 1 Chinese yaun = 0.125495708 U.S. dollars. So mathematically 105 Chinee I.Q.’s divided by the official exchange rate of 0.125495708 is equal to an American I.Q. of approximately 837. So mathematically Americans are approximately 8 times smarter than Chinee.
    J.A. Americans are humble and we do have the free world’s respect. Operative word Johnathan is “FREE”. Moreover Americans were admonished by their Great President Theodore Roosevelt, to “speak softly and carry a big… Shillelagh”.

  • http://beaufjerkie.blogspot.com/ Jethro

    Yes, prequel.
    Just sending Keillor a subliminal message. Hope springs eternal.
    Bring out the wet-noodle, how could I have forgotten about Jesse?!

  • Chinese

    Jethro, US has free world’s respect? Have you ever been to Europe countries – France, Germany, Italy, Ireland? Even some British dislike US? Every Greece I meet hates US. You are so lovely …

  • Jean

    Most of you have hit the nail on the head when it comes to the real China. Do countries start increasing their military budget just to keep up with the Jones’? With respect to the comment that that was China 30 years ago, maybe you could explain the widespread unrest amongst human rights advocates, pro-democracy groups, and labor unions. Those of you that think the drilling rights of the coast of Florida are solely for a booming economy should read the nine commmentaries.

  • http://beaufjerkie.blogspot.com/ Jethro

    As a matter of fact Chinee my company does business with every European country. Personally I travel to Europe a dozen or more times a year. My extended family has roots in France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Monte Carlo, Latvia, Lithuania and a few Balkan countries. Most of our trading partners are decidedly pro-American. In private conversations most despise their countries official coolness towards the U.S. They understand the liberal leanings of their mostly socialistic governments and they see their countrymen turning away from their failed policies.
    They say their problem is similar to ours. A very vocal Leftist minority supported by Leftist Media with a student population indoctrinated by Leftists professors. Their average workingman besides being nationalistic still admires the U.S. and understands what the Left is doing but like here in America, he feels powerless to do anything about it. Many say that pro-Western change is coming because most of their citizens are tired of failed socialist programs accompanied by high taxes and high unemployment. So naturally they admire and envy America’s success and affluence.
    Yes Chinee, the economic sun rises in the west!

  • Jonathan Asian

    Dear Jethro, you have made a silly mistake by using an exchange rate to discuss differences in IQ scores. (Different countries have different units of currency.) Study reports written by IQ researchers first before you confuse yourself and others when it comes to comparisons of intelligence quotients of Caucasians and East Asians.

  • duane

    Oh brother. Sense of humor?

  • Mr. Sha

    Jethro, for anyone in this world still calling China Red China, it shows that this person is either bigoted or ignorant of what’s going on in that country and in the world as well. It shows that you are still living with a cold war mentality. Wake up! Calling names won’t do a thing, it only makes people think that the caller is insecure. As China rises, a lot people feel unhappy, and you must me one of them. Let’s not focus on how emotional Ambassador Sha was, but consider isn’t what he said about the US military spending the truth, and it is only the truth that counts. China is still under a totalitarian government, but it will change. Just be patient and give it more time. Don’t forget, only some 40 years ago, white people in North America was covered by law to go out and shoot Indians for fun! By the way, among the alliances of the US, quite a few courtiers are ruled by totalitarian governments. US didn’t say a thing about them but provide them with military support, actually, not that long ago, Sadam Hussein’s Iraq was a loved alliance of US. The double standard, arrogance and hypocrisy of the US government are what made Mr. Kang, and many peoples in the world, so mad. By the way your mentioning of Chinese government organizing acts taking organs out of prisoners showed again how venerable you are to the brainwash of US media which thinks nothing but want to create a sensation out of anything they could possible get and blow that totally out of proportion and human conscience in order for their report to sell or for the reporter to get promoted.

  • Chinese

    Jethro, you are really lovely :-)

    Everyone in the earth should give this kid a sweet kiss :-)

    Are you intelligent enough to calculate how many kisses you will get?

  • Clavos

    Gee, Mr. Sha,

    In your #115 you accuse Jethro of being brainwashhed by US media, and in the same comment you say:

    Don’t forget, only some 40 years ago, white people in North America was covered by law to go out and shoot Indians for fun!

    What an asinine allegation! How can you seriously believe that?

    Who’s brainwashed?

  • DAMN RIGHT!

    Its about fucken time someone told the bully to STFU!! YEAH! China got balls.

  • OK….

    Jethro: you seem to be a ill educated redneck who hates everyone in the world except other rednecks, [Edited]

  • BADMAN

    [Edited] On a more serious note, if anyone look at this from the Chinese point of view u would understand why they want America to “shutup” imagin China keeps on telling U.S to decrease their miltary spending and make a huge deal out of this on international stage after the invasion of another nation for no good reason?

  • Mr. Sha

    Clavos,#117: I just came back from Canada, and a white gentleman, who worked for the Indian community in his early career, told me this. I couldn’t believe it but he said it’s true. Before I hearded this from him, I saw on Canadian TV dozens of Indian decendents protesting on Vancouver street accusing that their kinship is still being slaughtered. Brainwashed or you’re not well informed? And that’s the thing. People in the US seem not to have much historical perspectives and that’s part of reason that it has created so many problems worldwide nowadays. Most of the answer of today’s problems lies in history.

  • Clavos

    Mr. Sha, Perhaps in Canada there are hooligans and thugs who take pleasure in harming and maybe even killing Indians, but I assure there absolutely is NOT a law that permits them to do so legally.

    It’s just not true, and I’m surprised that you would believe it. No country in North America has a law on the books allowing anybody to kill anybody else, period.

  • Mr. Sha

    Clavos, the Canadian gentleman was not talking about now but 40 years ago. Maybe not a written law, but killers still could easily get away without getting any punishment. Anyway, how would you explain the Indian protesters in Vancouver accusing that their people is being slaughtered today? Who brainwashed them????, Red China media? My point is that before accusing of any country, go there, meet and talk to its people, understand their history, and then give opinions. Don’t self-righteously jump on conclusions and judgments. So, between you and the Canadian gentleman, I would believe him more than you, because he was there and lived and worked with the Indians. I think many people don’t agree with Bryan because he is self-righteous, lack of historical perspective and complete picture, and thinks only from his own perspective – what can you expect if he looks at the world through a telescope that is made by the prejudiced media in the US. Before accusing others or telling others what they suppose to do, clean your own house, then people bow to you. Double standard and self-righteousness simply won’t work any more.

  • Clavos

    Mr. Sha, I have yet to express an opinion of any kind about China on this or any other thread.

    You contradict yourself: first you say that the Canadian gentleman wasn’t talking about today, but rather 40 years ago. Then, in the very next sentence you say protesters were alleging their people are being slaughtered today.

    You haven’t stated whether the Indians you’re referring to are from India or are indigenous North Americans, so it’s impossible to even understand what you’re talking about.

    Then you say:

    My point is that before accusing of any country, go there, meet and talk to its people, understand their history, and then give opinions. Don’t self-righteously jump on conclusions and judgments.

    I have accused no one, nor have I jumped to any conclusions.

    And again:

    Before accusing others or telling others what they suppose to do, clean your own house, then people bow to you.

    Again, I’ve accused no one. On the contrary, you’re the one doing all the accusing in this dialogue.

    And finally, you say:

    Double standard and self-righteousness simply won’t work any more.

    Can you point to a place where I’ve used a double standard or been self-righteous?

    I didn’t think so.

  • Chinese

    Have a look at Jethro’s logic, we can forgive him though, he is just a kid anway:
    (1) Those EU media not pro-US = Leftist Media
    (2) Those EU Professor not pro-US = Leftist professors, and they brainwash students to leftiest students.
    (3) Those EU governments not pro-US = socialistic governments
    (4) Those Middle-East dictactor governments = US Allies
    (5) Those Middle-East governments not pro-US = Evil governments
    (6) Those Middle-East people not pro-US = Terrorist
    (7) China as a country can say NO to US = Red China
    (8) Chinese people not pro-US = Brainwashed people by Communist Party

  • Chinese

    And missed one(from his BLOG):

    Lebanese civilian = Lebanese terrorist-Hizbollah

  • Chinese

    Jethro’s LOGIC continue…

    I actaully missed one more:
    “1 Chinese yaun = 0.125495708 U.S. dollars….So mathematically Americans are approximately 8 times smarter than Chinese.”

    My IQ is 125, so as for your logic and maths, your IQ is 1000.

    Does anyone here believe Jethro’s IQ is 1000?

  • Clavos

    Hey, Holy Crap!:

    as an American I must apologize for Jethro.

    Why do I not believe that? Could it be because you write English like a Chinaman?

  • dgateway

    If you think this “shut up” statement from China’s UN ambassador is anything of arrogance, you haven’t seen nothing yet. Let’s look at what our own UN ambassador, John Bolton, has to say,

    “There is no such thing as the United Nations. There is an international community that occasionally can be led by the only real power left in the world and that is the United States when it suits our interest and we can get others to go along.”

    By the way, everytime I see Bolton on CSPAN, I have the impulsive desire to rip off his mustache!

  • IE

    Hello, dgateway.

    on the orginal post.

    does anyone believe that an openess of military spending necessarily leads to that country’s peaceful attitude towards the world?

    let’s count:

    US, very open. China, not very open.
    US, invaded:
    Bay of Pigs Invasion
    Dominican War
    Vietnam War
    Invasion of Grenada
    Panama
    Yugoslavia
    Afghanistan
    Somalia
    Iraq
    China, invaded:
    Vietnam,
    (if you let the richard geare count, tibet)

    how many people did each kill?

    any one?

    does it correlate at all?

    I don’t think so.

  • Clavos

    does anyone believe that an openess of military spending necessarily leads to that country’s peaceful attitude towards the world?

    Did anyone (other than you) say it does?

  • dgateway

    IE, the laundary list of countries the US has invaded in the past testifies to Washington’s active following of the Ledeen doctrine, which Michael Ledeen, the ex-Pentegon man, once stated as,

    “Every ten years or so, the United States needs to pick up some small crappy little country and throw it against the wall, just to show the world we mean business.”

    Well, “following” is an understatement. If you count the number of countries in that list, that is 9 over a time span of less than half a century. So the doctrine may be revised to mean every 5 years or so, the United States needs to find a small crappy little country. But alas, at this speed, it is going to run out of countries to pick pretty soon!

  • Wakeup

    It’s really interesting. I believe the best way to cure your redneck psychos is to send your family to the real battle ground. E.g. send your grandfather to Korean War, your father to Vietnam War, and send yourself to Iraq and Afghanistan. After the war (if you are still alive) you can tell us you are not chicken-hawks.

  • http://victorplenty.blogspot.com Victor Plenty

    Sorry to intrude with facts here, but now that I’ve gone and looked them up, I might as well post them.

    Many comments ago, someone asked about China’s charitable giving, so I looked up the UN figures for international aid donations. In 2005, China gave nearly 90 million dollars in aid to other countries, much of it to provide relief for victims of the Indian Ocean tsunami. Figures for 2006 are still incomplete, of course, but China has already donated nearly 4.5 million dollars to various international aid projects this year.

    This doesn’t prove China is entirely free of problems, but it’s only fair to give them credit for the good things they have in fact done.

  • Submarine

    I’ve been under water pretty long and listened to you all talking, although I failed to understand all. However, I’ve learnt pretty much from all of you. I see that most of you are peace-lovers and rationable. I am pretty appriciate those friendly + rational + grounded arguments. Thank you all.

  • Frank

    dgateway, don’t worry about that. There are nothing prevent American to pick one coury two times, like Iraq. :)

  • simon

    “There is no such thing as the United Nations. There is an international community that occasionally can be led by the only real power left in the world and that is the United States when it suits our interest and we can get others to go along.” — Bolton

    “If I were redoing the Security Council today, I’d have one permanent member because that’s the real reflection of the distribution of power in the world.” — Bolton

    “It is a big mistake for us to grant any validity to international law even when it may seem in our short-term interest to do so – because, over the long term, the goal of those who think that international law really means anything are those who want to constrict the United States. We ought to be concerned about this so-called right of humanitarian intervention.” — Bolton

    You will see why did the Chinese embassor cry out “Shut up” if you know what kind of crap guy he is dealing with everyday in the U.N.

  • Frank

    Byran, I am very confused why you think the purpose of Chinese increasing on defense is against North Korea.

    There are severy reasons why China throw more and more money on defense budget from about middle 1990’s.

    At first, China spend so little on defense at 1980’s. Because China need money for developing economic, a lot of weapon development project was cancel at that time. And untile 1990’s, PLA are still using weapons of 50’s. Because they have no budget to buy new weapons. The increasing on defence spending after 1990’s has the meaning of “repay debt”.

    Sencond, for Taiwan. If you review the situation of Taiwan Channel after 1990’s, especially the dissension between China, USA and Taiwan at 1995, 1996 and after that, I think you will have more understanding about that.

    Third, all of us know what happened at 1991. The Gulf War brought great shock to Chinese leaders and PLA, because PLA’s weapon is no better than Iraq’s. A lot of weapon R&D project created, and a lot of weapons imported from Russia after that.

    From Chinese view point, are these reasons make sense?

    So there are little related with North Korea. Is Chinese leaders regard North Korea a threat? I doubt that. But if USA attack North Korea, that’s another story.

    Let’s back to Sha’s “Shut Up”. The problem is not China keeps her defence budget secret. Actually, China publish her defence budget every year from severy years ago. And Chinese government are becoming more and more opening. The problem is USA always censure China increase rapidly on defence budget. Bug Chinese government and a lot of normal Chinese think such kind censure is unreasonabl.

    So the “Shut Up” doesn’t means “Don’t ask question”, but “Don’t censure us more”.

    Will Mr. Sha receive reprimand from Chinese government? I don’t know. But if you understand Chinese can can visit some Chinese BBS, you will find a lot of Chinese praise him. Because we, Chinese (Yes, I’m a Chinese), are really annoyed with Uncle Sam’s unreasonable censure.

    If there are something hard to understand, please forgive me. After all, English is not my native language.

  • Mr. Sha

    Clavos: I am sorry that you cannot tell the difference between north American Indians and the Indians from India and assuming everybody else doesn’t know either.

    Also, you accused someone in this thread as chainman when he apologizes for Americans like Jethro. If you are such a racist! Get the hell out of here. You are wasting everyone’s time.

    Clavos, I think your brain is a bowl of spaghetti. That’s ok, but just don’t pretend to be fair and factual.

  • Clavos

    Mr. Sha re your #140,

    I didn’t say I can’t tell the difference between an Indian and an a North American indigenous person (who are no longer called Indians, by the way), I said that YOU had not been clear as to which group you were referring to, and since YOU call both groups by the same name, it’s a valid question.

    If calling someone who is from America an American is not racist, then calling someone from China a Chinaman is also not racist.

    I never pretended to be fair–on the contrary, I was being totally pro North America in all my discussions with you, by defending against your scurrilous and lying allegations that we kill people for fun and that this is (or was) permitted by law.

    That’s total bullshit and a slanderous, vicious lie.

    And since I have every right (as guaranteed by the Constitution and laws of my country, the United States of America) to be here, your demand for me to “get the hell out of here” is risible and will be ignored.

    So fuck off.

  • Joseph Christian

    The U.S. has to think seriously about whether they are doing the right thing (in accordance with God’s will) when it comes to taking silly military actions to invade another country or forcing others to reveal their military spending.

    Is the Israel today the Israel in the old testament? Are we still doing God’s will if we Christians try to protect and allow Israel to kill, react excessively to an attack, and aggravate others’ anger unceasingly?

    We definitely should help and love the ‘nation’ of Israel today, but are we helping it in the right way? (The U.S. is unofficially a country ruled by Christians.) Strengthening our own defence system is of course necessary.

    Let’s remember that the new and actual Israel that pleases God is the community of loving Christians in different parts of the world. Let us love the Muslims too. Only true love can touch their hearts.

    We should not be over suspicious of them. Compete with them by doing good deeds, by loving them genuinely, by giving them helping hands, by showing them that we are the true believers of God.

    The real believers of God are those who do not take revenge but wait for God to act. God’s wisdom is much higher than that of men. Let us show the world that the true believers of God are those who genuinely love others, including the people who are against us at the momemnt.

  • South-East Asian Chinese

    China is no longer ‘red’. Many of them are more capitalistic than people in the U.S. Otherwise, they wouldn’t have risen so rapidly and shockingly in the last two decades. (Visit China more often or live there longer and you will know it.)

    Chinese are intelligent and practical people who have been merely using communism (a Western ideology) to achieve different political and economic goals during different historical periods. Wait and see. China will be even more capitalistic in future.

    They are only using the present ‘communist’ government to develop their country in stages (first economically, then socially and politically). They will not let the West disintegrate their country, and will avoid making the same mistake the Soviets did.

    Even the people who dislike the Communist Party of China know the essential and important role the so-called ‘Communist Party’ is doing to help the people in the next hundred years. (They know that a multi-party system filled with selfish and divisive politicians can once again destroy the huge Motherland.) Wait and see. The people who are transforming the political system of China (in stages) are the members of the nationalistic Communist Party of China itself.

    It is the stability and competitiveness that they want in developing their country. The people in China know that they need to continue to wisely support and make use of the so-called ‘Communist’ Party of China. These people will continue to transform the party in stages.

    They increase their military spending in order to ensure that they can continue to develop economically, socially and politically in stages. Wait and see. Their ultimate goal is to demonstrate their cultural superiority. For centuries, the Chinese have learnt that invading others’ countries will bring disasters to their own. They will not be that silly. (Thousands of classical Chinese writings have told them the same thing.)

    Many Chinese admire the U.S., and they want to be Americans’ friends. Wait and see. If you support them socially and economically, they will eventually be your closest ally.

  • Michael

    Bryan, your opinion sadly shows what this country in general lacks – A good understanding of the world beyond US boundary and some of its western European heritage. American in general does not have a clue why other people hate America. As far as Bush could understand, they hated us because “we have freedom!”. Com’on, Finland has freedom too, so do Canada or Iceland. Can someone explain why people hate us so much that they would want to blow themselves up in order to kill some Americans they don’t even personally known along the way?

    America these days is not a welcoming power in the world, anywhere, from South America to West Europe, Asia to Africa. It gets what it wants mostly by force, thanks to it military power no one can compare closely. But power does not solve a lot of problems. Korean War, Vietnam War and now Iraqi War, America does not learn much especially when it has the power, like the big fat bully in junior high.

    You appears to be quite bothered by someone telling US to shut-up. You have no clue, as an average American, that why other people are so unpolite toward America, especially to its government. What do you want to do next? Send in the Marines?

  • I’m Chinese!

    “In an era where Iraq can be “preemptively” attacked for refusing to comply with UN inspections, it doesn’t look good for China to take a similar stance of non-disclosure.” Is the author hinting a threat? Well, everyone in China knows why China increases its defense budget! To counter-strike the potential terror attacks from the largest terrorist institution-the United States of America.
    It’s not a faux pas to ask the US to shut up as the author labels it. It’s an act of strength and confidence. No other nation on this planet dare even to think of using the same words to Uncle Sam. If you’re not happy with it, just bring it on.I will,and my fellow Chinese will also, show you guys some color!

  • Mr. Sha

    Clavos, re your #141.

    the american indians still call themselves indians. as an american, if you still don’t know this, check the indian people’s official website http://www.indians.org please don’t show your ignorance any more. we’ve got enough of that already.

    Also, if you don’t know the difference between the neutral “chinese” and the derogative “chinaman”, you probably would take “white trash” as a compliment.

    .

  • Qi

    This article is frustrating because “Shut up” is obviously an ingrained insult in our culture, but it literally means no different than “Stop talking about…” which is almost certainly how the hapless Chinese official intended it to mean. So if it’s a diplomatic faux pas it comes from a cultural misunderstanding. What’s frustrating is that this should be so obvious I can’t believe no one here even considered that. Instead they certainly had no problem exploiting the “Shut Up” line in the headline of the story. I’ve no problem debating policy, but there’s no need to look for excuses to whip up the anti China xenophobia when the US government routines issues reports on this subject.

    What bullshit.

  • peace

    To those who do not have clean mouth:

    Shut up!

    We only enloy rational discussion.

  • Clavos

    Mr. “Chinese” Sha,

    Don’t believe everything you read on the internet.

    As any American knows, the American “Indians” have preferred to call themselves Native Americans for more than a generation now. If you didn’t know even that basic fact, you’re too uninformed to be believable about anything else you have to say about North America, much less the Native Americans.

    Obviously there are ignorant, bigoted people in China, too.

  • Mr. Sha

    Clavos:

    “Obviously there are ignorant, bigoted people in China, too.”

    Now, you admit there’re ignorant,bigoted people in the US.

  • Clavos

    Of course there are, Mr. Sha. There are ignorant, bigoted people all over the world. That’s not earthshaking news, is it?

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    Is there supposed to be something bad about admitting that Mr. Sha? Since ignorant and bigoted are relative terms, theoretically there are an equal percent of ignorant bigoted people in every country, and since China has a higher population, it has more bigots than the U.S!

  • peacekeeper

    Do not impose on others what you would not like others to impose on you. If everybody can keep it, the world would be very beautiful.

  • DazeyMai

    Yes, we have increased our defense spending and wasted every penny of it. Our military is weakening every day. Thank you Bush, Cheney and Rumsfield.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    No, Dazey. Defense spending is never really a waste of money. It is always good for the economy and expansion of the military creates job and trainign opportunities for some of the most disadvantaged in society which might not be available otherwise.

    Actually, Clavos, Sha is right on the Indian terminology issue. I know a lot of Indians (I’m married to one) and none of them call themselves Native Americans. Of course, they’re mostly politically conservative, and they see the term ‘Native Americans’ as something imposed on them by the white liberal establishment.

    Dave

  • Chinese

    This thread looks more and more ugly, I suggest editor to censure all new posts.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Ok, new posts. You’re being bad. Consider yourself censured.

    I’ll take care of the censuring. The comments editor does the censoring.

    Dave

  • Chinese

    Dave, why I am being bad?

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    I can’t answer that question. Only you know if you’re being bad and why that might be. I was responding to the request to censure the posts, and pointing out your confusion of the words ‘censure’ and ‘censor’.

    Dave

  • Chinese

    you can’t ask the question but say I am being bad?

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    How can I ask the question when you already did? And you’re the one who said new posts needed to be censured (sic).

    Never mind.

    Dave

  • Clavos

    Dave, Are there duplicate ip #s in that thread.

    Sure reads like there are.

  • DazeyMai

    Dave #155 – hmmm, for some reason my mind rebels at the idea that increasing defense spending to finance a war we are losing and putting us further into debt every day could possibly be beneficial to America in any way. I know you are very knowledgable, and for sure I am all in favor of helping those who are disadvantaged, but for God’s sake, not at the cost of the blood (both American and Iraqi) we are spilling in the Middle East – not to mention the division in the U.S., the weakening of our military (we are showing signs of desperation there) and the ridicule of the rest of the world.

    I may be wrong, but I think I sensed an underlying hint from your post that you agree we are losing the war. Correct me if I’m wrong, please.

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    Clavos, initially I had just assumed they were all the same guy posting under different names, but checking the IPs was interesting. They are different people. Two of them are in China (Beijing and Shenzen) and one is in the UK (London). I believe China does follow the same practice as North Korea and has professional blog scanners who seek out threads to post in their government’s defense in response to anti-Chinese articles. Given the location of two of the commentors and the fact that normal Chinese citizens in those cities have very restricted access to the outside internet, it wouldn’t be unreasonable to assume we’ve got a couple of shills posting here.

    Dave

  • Clavos

    The reaction was such a flood and so vitriolic, plus the syntactical similarity, made me also think one individual. Thanks for checking.

    Discretion being the better part of valor, I’m bowing out. TTFN.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Well, I’m not sure that my too-subtle taunting over certain malapropisms helped much.

    Dave

  • Clavos

    Hell, I was glad for the reinforcements.

    They sure marshalled their troops fast, didn’t they?

  • http://bigrain11.ik8.com/ kevin

    hi, guys, i am chinese businessman and i am be proud of being chinese. Chinese is the oldest nation in the world. Now it is going up again. I really appreciate Mr.sha zhukang’s words and it express our attitude towards the USA government,not common USA guy. Even i dont like china commuinst party, but until now you had no choice and their work is not all bad.

    Finally, I dont think our argument will help in any field, nor the policy of government or our personal wallet. As one businessman, pls bear my addversement below. I be glad to do business with anyone no matter what he is. U r welcome, guys!

  • Mr. Sha

    Clavos:

    “Actually, Clavos, Sha is right on the Indian terminology issue. I know a lot of Indians (I’m married to one) and none of them call themselves Native Americans. Of course, they’re mostly politically conservative, and they see the term ‘Native Americans’ as something imposed on them by the white liberal establishment.

    Dave”

    Some one in the US should be smarter and better infmored than Clavos.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Do you notice that ‘kevin’ knows Mr. Sha’s familiar name, even though it was never posted here. Smacks a bit of collusion.

    Dave

  • Clavos

    That’s the name of the chinese UN ambassador who said we should shut up. Maybe he’s the one commenting here as mr. S.

  • Clavos

    Remeber the shunning of Brodie a couple of weeks ago? We’ve sort of De facto started that here and now, huh?

  • Clavos

    PS Dave. I woulldn’t hit those links in kevin’s comment. No tellin’ what you might get exposed to.

  • Clavos

    check out 55 & 56 on the willie thread.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    I wonder how many chinese ambassadors are in the habit of calling Americans misinformed bigots.

  • Clavos

    Good question. Reckon we kin find out on Wiki?

  • kevin

    dear dave,

    what is the problem that i know the name of mr.sha? actually we know the news the Mr.sha ask usa to shut up several days from chinese internet. i am just interested with opinion of common american guy, so i just join your discussion. actually almost all young chinese visit internet everyday so we may know news earlier than you.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    I wonder if there’s a difference between the preferred terminology of Native Americans in Texas and the west, and the eastern half of the country. I am pretty sure here in the northeast Native Americans prefer to be called Native Americans. I would guess that if there is a difference, it’s because Native Americans in the northeast have fit into modern life more rapidly than in other parts of the country. In the northeast, where identifying themselves as groups that have sufferred injustices in the past and are entitled to compensation can lead to economic benefit (gambling), it makes more sense to demand the politically correct “Native Americans.” I think the culture of Native Americans across the country is very different and in the northeast they tend to be more a part of that “white liberal establishment” that Dave speaks of, or at least attempting to use “the white liberal establishment” to their advantage, rather than opponents of the establishment, which may lead to differing terminology.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    can someone tell me why the word for a gambling establishment is a banned word?

  • Clavos

    I don’t know, PETI, but I encountered the same thing a few days ago. The work around is stick a space in it, thus: cas ino.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    Dave, why is it you tout the benefits of military spending in 154, but you are so disinclined to ever speak of domestic spending in such enamored tones? Domestic spending has all of the benefits you cite of military spending when spent correctly (the same is of course true of military spending – dont pay china to make our weapons) plus it doesnt require inevitable death and destruction inherent in nearly all large scale military build ups. In fact, domestic spending can be spent even more effectively than military spending because it doesnt have the strict limitation of producing as a final product a means to kill or dominate, with any benefits limited to byproducts.

  • Clavos

    PETI, Your #178. You make some interesting points. For one thing, the Native Americans who are activists use the term exclusively when you see them on the news.

    That said, after Dave posted his comment, I was watching TV and saw a commercial by the Miccosukees for their cas ino. At the end of the spot, they flashed their tribal seal and it clearly said: “Miccosukee Tribe of Indians of Florida.”

    So, some do, some don’t.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    I guess my theory isnt universal, but maybe there is some truth to it.

  • Clavos

    So, now the question is: Why is cas ino a banned word?

    Editors? Sr. Nalle?

  • kevin

    dear dave,

    i forget to point out one mistake you made. for Mr.sha, Sha is his family name. zhukang is his first name actually. we chinese put family name before peronal name.

  • Clavos

    OK. Editors?

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Clavos. The banned word is banned because it’s one of the top 3 or 4 unique words used by comment spamming bots. I’m sure you can figure out why.

    Kevin. I referred to it as his ‘familiar’ name, not his family name. The familiar name is the name people who know him use. Sha is his patrinomial name or family name.

    I don’t believe that the user posting as Sha Zukang is actually that person, since he posted from China, while as far as I know the real Sha Zukang is in Geneva – unless he’s been recalled in the last few days. Which doesn’t mean he’s not an agent of the Chinese government, however.

    Dave

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    I wonder if there’s a difference between the preferred terminology of Native Americans in Texas and the west, and the eastern half of the country. I am pretty sure here in the northeast Native Americans prefer to be called Native Americans. I would guess that if there is a difference, it’s because Native Americans in the northeast have fit into modern life more rapidly than in other parts of the country. In the northeast, where identifying themselves as groups that have sufferred injustices in the past and are entitled to compensation can lead to economic benefit (gambling), it makes more sense to demand the politically correct “Native Americans.” I think the culture of Native Americans across the country is very different and in the northeast they tend to be more a part of that “white liberal establishment” that Dave speaks of, or at least attempting to use “the white liberal establishment” to their advantage, rather than opponents of the establishment, which may lead to differing terminology.

    I think it’s almost the opposite of that. Indians in the western states have more autonomy and have been more successful living within the general culture, especially in the southwest. This is especially true of the Cherokee and other associated tribes. They’ve always been more politically astute and economically successful than most other tribal groups.

    Dave, why is it you tout the benefits of military spending in 154, but you are so disinclined to ever speak of domestic spending in such enamored tones?

    Because only military spending was brought up here. Some domestic spending also has great benefits. Why do you ignore the negative impact of domestic spending when you mention the negative impact of military spending? Domestic spending puts the government in direct competition with business, provides a disincentive for self-reliance, and fosters political corruption.

    While I pointed out benefits of military spending, that doesn’t mean I’m exactly for it. I’m against unnecessary spending on anything, be it military, foreign aid or domestic programs.

    Dave

  • Clavos

    Dave 137. Thanks. I DO understand. Pefectly!

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    Uhh Dave you ever heard of Foxwoods? that place disperses 100,000 times more money among the tribe than selling sandpaintings or whatever the economy of the southwest native americans is based upon. There is an entire generation of Native Americans in the northeast who know they will never have to work or learn anything because of the cash flow out of the cas inos.

    Domestic spending puts the government in direct competition with business, provides a disincentive for self-reliance, and fosters political corruption.

    Only if it spent improperly. There are certain things the businesses run more effectively by the government. And what does domestic spending have to do with self-reliance? Welfare (if that’s what you are referring to) is only one of a million ways the government can spend money…and domestic spending doesnt foster political corruption anymore than military spending (haliburton anyone?) and is entirely preventable with an informed public and open system.

    Why do you ignore the negative impact of domestic spending when you mention the negative impact of military spending?

    I dont. I specifically said it must be spent correctly which implies inherent negative impacts when spent inapropriately. If it spent correctly it should not have a net negative effect on the economy.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    I could have listed all the ways the government could use domestic spending wrong, but I figured the list would be too long.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    HC, why this bigotry against rednecks? Do you know where the term comes from? It’s an elitist slur against people who work outdoors doing manual labor and therefore have sunburn on their necks. Are you an elitist who despises the working class?

    PETI. When have you ever seen the government spend money well or wisely or ‘correctly’? And all government spending has a negative effect on the economy because that money is taken out of the pockets of consumers. The question is how much does the spending give back once the consumer has been robbed. Usually not enough or not to the right people.

    Dave

  • Chinese

    I suggest Dave ,pleasexcusethein,Clavos to exchange emails or phone numbers, so you can chat privately.

    Please don’t turn this thread into your guys’personal chat show!

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    Please forgive us if we are not devoting our entire attention towards praising your great nation, as you would seem to have it – we have more important things to discuss.

    And Dave, I really dont know northeast native americans could be “more politically astute and economically successful.” People are lining up with DNA tests and the like to prove that they are 1/100th Native American so they can have a bite of the pie. I havent heard of that happening in the SW…

  • Mr. Sha

    I’m jus one of the millions of Mr. Sha’s. in this world.

  • Clavos

    PETI,

    People are lining up with DNA tests and the like to prove that they are 1/100th Native American so they can have a bite of the pie.

    I’ve read about that. It’s incredible what can happen when a lot of moola is at stake.

    An interesting sidebar to the rapid rise of the cas ino industry: At first, it (and Lotto, as well) almost killed the horse tracks down here, so they began to do a lot of simulcasting of races at tracks elsewhere in the country.

    That wasn’t enough to bring people back, so the tracks went into the rock concert business. That DID make the a difference, so now the gaming places have countered with their own rock concerts.

    And the beat goes on…(sorry!) :>)

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    People are lining up with DNA tests and the like to prove that they are 1/100th Native American so they can have a bite of the pie. I havent heard of that happening in the SW…

    Traditionally this has been to get a piece of the college scholarship funds exclusively for Indians, which have a much lower application rate than other similar sources of scholarships. But a DNA test showing you have 1/100th Indian blood isn’t going to do you any good at all. I know of no legitimate tribe (and there are a few which are essentially fictional) which accepts less than 1/32nd for membership and they expect it to be provable genealogically.

    Dave

  • http://bryanmckay.com/blog Bryan

    I hate to jump back into the fray here, but some of these comments regarding DNA, geneology, and Native American ancestry are fairly interesting. I can’t comment too much on the regional differences, but I certainly don’t see people “lining up […] to prove they are 1/100th Native American.” Dave is quite right about the restrictions.

    Personally (and this is speaking as a liberal supporter of affirmative action) I don’t think it should really matter where your DNA comes from. Someone who is only 1/32 Cherokee, for instance, probably isn’t suffering because he was Cherokee, and probably isn’t too entitled to “a bite of the pie.” These things should be determined on the basis of cultural background and not simply skin color. By the same token, affirmative action should be applied not to black students from affluent, middle-class suburbia, but to black students from the inner city who do have a distinct disadvantage. And when people argue that they aren’t as good as the other students, that’s only because of the education gap, and dedicated professors and a good college education can narrow that gap and bring the underprivileged students up to speed.

  • Clavos

    Bryan says:

    By the same token, affirmative action should be applied not to black students from affluent, middle-class suburbia, but to black students from the inner city who do have a distinct disadvantage.

    Agreed. The only problem, as you imply, is that that’s not what’s happening. If I remember correctly, there is little or no means testing in affirmative action programs, right?

  • http://bryanmckay.com/blog Bryan

    Yeah, Clavos, you’re right. And the real reform ought to be happening in our public institutions so that we don’t need to rely on things like affirmative action later on. If the problem were tackled at the root, affirmative action wouldn’t even be necessary.

  • Peter J

    Am I the only person who gets a tingly sensation at the mention of the ‘New World Order’?

  • DazeyMai

    Dave….Just wondering why you didn’t respond to my post #162…. I thought it was a pretty damn good post worthy of at least a modicum of discussion.

  • http://bryanmckay.com/blog Bryan

    Peter J: Read it as a somewhat facetious remark, thus the inclusion of the scare quotes. Slightly honest, but more or less tongue-in-cheek. I feel like there is some bizarre though going on that I’m some imperialist conservative hawk when that couldn’t be futher from the truth.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    It was an exageration, take it easy folks, I dont have the membership rules of every tribe in the country lieing around on my desk. The point is there is a really big tasty pie and people want to eat it. OK?

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    Sorry, Dazey – I missed it the first time round.

    hmmm, for some reason my mind rebels at the idea that increasing defense spending to finance a war we are losing and putting us further into debt every day could possibly be beneficial to America in any way.

    That’s the emotional reaction. But all that debt exists because the money is being spent. It’s going to defense contractors and military employees and service providers, all of whom pay employees and suppliers and even stockholders, with the result that ultimately most of that money goes back into the economy in some form or other. Alexander Hamilton pioneered this idea way back in the early 1800s. He promoted the idea that moderate deficit spending was a great way to stimulate the economy, and he was right. The problems arise when the deficit spending exceeds the ability to pay off the debt which it creates, but theoretically if you generate enough economic growth that gives you a boost in paying off the debt.

    Now, there’s also human cost – and that’s presumably what drives your emotional response – but from an economic standpoint that’s more or less irrelevant. Plus the casualty level in Iraq thus far has been very low relative to the amount of money spent, so we’ve spent more and gained more economic benefit per casualty than in past wars.

    I know you are very knowledgable, and for sure I am all in favor of helping those who are disadvantaged, but for God’s sake, not at the cost of the blood (both American and Iraqi) we are spilling in the Middle East – not to mention the division in the U.S., the weakening of our military (we are showing signs of desperation there) and the ridicule of the rest of the world.

    If we could fight a war with automated battle robots well THEN we’d really have a way to help the economy. Those things would be hellishly expensive to build and create lots of jobs and the loss of human lives would no longer be an issue. But although we’re moving in that direction, we’re not there yet.

    I may be wrong, but I think I sensed an underlying hint from your post that you agree we are losing the war. Correct me if I’m wrong, please.

    I don’t agree that we’re losing the war. I believe the war ended successfully some time ago. What we’re involved in now isn’t a war. It’s an expensive, somewhat stupid and interminable police action which we are managing badly because we don’t have the political will to apply enough force to resolve the situation once and for all, or to bite the bullet, get out and let the free Iraqis take it in the ass from Iran along with the political loss of face that would entail for us.

    Dave

  • DazeyMai

    Dave: I certainly cannot dispute your statement that I am emotional about this war. I have a grandson who was among the 172nd Stryker Brigade troops informed of their 120 day extension the day before they were to start their trip home. But, as you say, that is irrelevant to this topic.

    IMO, one could hardly call our overspending moderate, and the corruption and misuse of the funds awarded to contractors is a disgrace. Too much of that money is going into the hands of “big business”…but, that is what this administration is all about. I believe the Carlyle Group directs Bush on every move to make where that is concerned – all to their benefit.

    You confuse me. In one post, you exhibit your altruism by mentioning how the war will create opportunities for the disadvantaged. And, in the next, you say….”gained more economic benefit per casualty”…, which sounds very harsh and uncaring to me. I don’t want any economic benefits as a result of young Americans dying. I know…I know…there I go being emotional again, but life is precious, damn it!
    …as well as arms, legs, eyes, sanity, etc. I know you are a kind person for I know you have been a tremendous help to Jet in Columbus during the trying times he is going through and the sympathy you expressed to Clavos for his wife’s disability. And, yet you seem so callous when it comes to our young troops. You don’t need to remind me that they are all volunteers – yes, young, naive volunteers, who don’t deserve to die for a totally unjustified, preemptive war brought on by a President who lied to get us into it. Now, a quote from President/General Eisenhower…”if anyone tells you to go into a preventive war, tell them to go fight it themselves”. If you have not been to the “West Point Grads Against the War” site, I really think you would find it worthwhile.

    I know you are right when you say the war is over…but, in my opinion, not successfully and this police action has a remarkable resemblance to war. I’m not sure what you mean when you say…”political will to apply enough force…”. If we go in there and literally stomp hell out of them, it would involve killing many, many civilians and the whole world would be raising hell. Never mind that insurgents are killing civilians. Anything the U.S. does is an excuse for every country to complain.

    As for me, I am all for biting the bullet, getting out of there and screw “the political loss of face” it would entail. Democracy will never exist in the Middle East, and I don’t care. It is not our privilege to cram our views down the throats of another country.

    Whew! Thanks for taking the time to read this massive missive (if you did)!

  • Dean

    DazeyMai:

    Give it up.

    Dave is an unrepentant neocon.

    “I believe the war ended successfully some time ago. What we’re involved in now isn’t a war. ”

    He will be telling us we left Iraq too soon as soon as Bush is out of office and we have left.

  • Clavos

    Dean:

    What’s a neocon? (as opposed to a conservative?)

    Clavos

  • reasonableperson

    To Clavos:
    #174: “check out 55 & 56 on the willie thread.”

    What hint do you want to drop? What is your logic?

    Anybody who said sth different with your imagination about a country you do not like would be some “bad egg” who is working for that country?
    Is this your logic?

    I have two posts in this thread too, I used the name “peace” and peacekeeper”. These totally four posts are all I droped on this website, before last thursday, I never heard of this website! You can definitely let your editor friend to “censor” {IP to see what I said is true. I used those “names” just tried to express what I hope for the world. What conclusion can you get from all my posts?

  • Fair Guy

    Hey, guys, this is a site to give your comments about China. Why are you guys talking about things which have nothing to do with China.

    I don’t believe that this is a site where the Chinese government is instructing some special agents to post their messages here to protect their image. I am not a Chinese in Mainland China. I am a Southeast Asian Chinese. Please read what a Southeast Asian Chinese view China. None of us are in favour of communism. If you want to know more and get a balanced perspective, please read #142 above.

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    Now Clavos, that’s just mean. You know Dean can’t define ‘neocon’ – to him it’s just an insult you throw out at people you don’t agree with. Just like 90% of the left does.

    And Dean, if you think I’m a neocon then you really, really have no idea what a neocon is. I’m about as much a neocon as Noam Chomsky is – in fact, not being a neocon is about the only thing I have in common with Chomsky.

    Dave

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    It’s a tough call, but “neo-con” might be even more of a pejorative label than “liberal.”

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    IMO, one could hardly call our overspending moderate, and the corruption and misuse of the funds awarded to contractors is a disgrace. Too much of that money is going into the hands of “big business”

    Whose hands would it go into otherwise? Who would not use it corruptly or inefficiently? Introduce me to that saint or saintly organization that’s qualified to do the work we need done.

    …but, that is what this administration is all about. I believe the Carlyle Group directs Bush on every move to make where that is concerned – all to their benefit.

    Then they’re a pack of idiots, because their best move would have been to buy off Saddam and work with the system he already had established. This war and its aftermath have been a disaster for them in many ways.

    You confuse me. In one post, you exhibit your altruism by mentioning how the war will create opportunities for the disadvantaged. And, in the next, you say….”gained more economic benefit per casualty”…, which sounds very harsh and uncaring to me. I don’t want any economic benefits as a result of young Americans dying. I know…I know…there I go being emotional again, but life is precious, damn it!

    If I weren’t confusing people I wouldn’t be doing my job. I just feel that you have to separate the emotional from the pragmatic when looking at a situation like this. National policy can’t be made on a basis of casualty count or popular perception. That’s the weakness which has put us where we are today in Iraq. Halfassed policy with one eye on the news and the polls gets MORE young Americans killed than would be with a more coherent and decisive policy – be it to stay in or get out. The feckless Wilsonianism of this administration’s foreign policy is unacceptable.

    I know you are a kind person for I know you have been a tremendous help to Jet in Columbus during the trying times he is going through and the sympathy you expressed to Clavos for his wife’s disability.

    That’s mostly just emotional support and maybe a little advice, and while it’s nice, it’s cheap. But in the context it’s all one can do.

    And, yet you seem so callous when it comes to our young troops. You don’t need to remind me that they are all volunteers – yes, young, naive volunteers, who don’t deserve to die for a totally unjustified, preemptive war brought on by a President who lied to get us into it.

    No one deserves to die. But that’s part of the job they signed on for. I agree that preemptive war is never a good idea, but I don’t think the methods Bush used to justify the war are terribly relevant. Dying is what soldiers do. The administration’s job is to make sure that we get the most results possible for each death we have to endure. This is a job which so far it has not done terribly well, and that’s the real crime.

    To quote Congressman Humphrey on Wilson’s policy in Mexico: “He has not had the courage to go into Mexico nor the courage to stay out…I would either go into Mexico and pacify the country or I would keep my hands entirely out of Mexico. If we are too
    proud to fight, we should be too proud to quarrel.”

    This is the same problem we have in Iraq. Not much has changed in 100 years.

    I know you are right when you say the war is over…but, in my opinion, not successfully and this police action has a remarkable resemblance to war.

    It’s just a matter of how you look at it. I don’t think that peacekeeping should be considered to be the same as an actual war, even though there may be even more casualties involved.

    I’m not sure what you mean when you say…”political will to apply enough force…”. If we go in there and literally stomp hell out of them, it would involve killing many, many civilians and the whole world would be raising hell. Never mind that insurgents are killing civilians. Anything the U.S. does is an excuse for every country to complain.

    By political will I mean the will to do the right thing or the effective thing without counting the cost or making decisions based on public opinion. If you do not have the surety and the will to commit wholeheartedly to doing something then that’s a very good sign that you should not do it. And if that’s the case you should have the strength of will to NOT do something you may want to do but aren’t confident you have the guts to do properly.

    As for me, I am all for biting the bullet, getting out of there and screw “the political loss of face” it would entail. Democracy will never exist in the Middle East, and I don’t care. It is not our privilege to cram our views down the throats of another country.

    I think that democracy can exist in the middle east. Their native forms of government are actually fairly compatible with democracy in at least some form. And we’re certainly not cramming our views down their throats. Our activities in Iraq to this point have been remarkable for the light hand we’ve played in telling them how to form their government and run their country. A lot of Iraqis and a lot of concerned people in other nations wish we’d been more decisive and more dictatorial. Some of them are publicly demanding that we suspend the Iraqi constitution and essentially install a dictatorship until the fighting there is under control.

    But as for getting out, it’s probably a good idea, but it’s not going to make things better for us or the Iraqi people.

    Dave

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    Whew! Thanks for taking the time to read this massive missive (if you did)!

    O dont worry Dave’s quite used to it, and is quite adept at making them himself (see above).

  • Liew Kok Beng (Malaysia)

    Dear Dave Nalle, is this site sponsored or funded by some Republicans in the U.S.? You seem to be supporting your government’s views and political decisions all the time.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    I, like Dazey, am still confused when you say there isnt the will to apply “enough force.” It sounds as if you are saying there isnt adequate military force. If that’s the case I would remind you of the pengagon study explaining the real problem is the use of excessive and unnecesary force.

    If what you’re really saying is there is not enough political will to do what’s really right, only a shallow pandering to public opinion, my question is…how can you tell? Is Bush and the military pandering to public opinion??? Not being an expert in military tactics or foreign policy, I have no idea what the best way to attack and police Iraq would have been. If I dont know the best way, how can I be sure Bush is doing it wrong and is pandering to the press? Certainly his objectives in Iraq seem to be rather fluid, a sign that he is perhaps merely adapting to public opinion, but perhaps that is for other reasons.

    What I do know is that the results are unacceptable. If this is the best we can do, we shouldnt have gone. That I do know.

  • Clavos

    PETI,

    You answered your own question, how can I be sure Bush is doing it wrong and is pandering to the press? right in the next paragraph: What I do know is that the results are unacceptable.

    And your last sentence is exactly what Dave (and I) have been saying for some time; not only in this thread, but in numerous others: If this is the best we can (and are prepared to) do, we shouldnt have gone. Parentheses mine.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    When I ask how can I be sure Bush is doing it wrong and is pandering to the press? I am asking about the current execution of the war/police operation. Certainly I can observe that thus far costs have outweighed benefits, but all that proves is we shouldnt have gone in the first place. It doesnt analyze his conduct of the war or suggest a future course of action.

    Dave suggests a lack of will to “apply enough force,” which implies improper execution. How can he or I know the execution is wrong?

  • Clavos

    C’mon, PETI. You’re bright. Re-read Dave’s 213; it’s clear enough to me.

    In any case, it’s not for me to to try interpret his ideas for you.

  • Dean

    Neoconservatism is a political current and ideology, mainly in the United States, which emerged in the 1960s, coalesced in the 1970s, and has had a significant presence in the administrations of Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush. It is today most closely identified with a set of foreign policy positions and goals: a hawkish stance during the Cold War and, more recently, in various conflicts in the Middle East.

    — Wikipedia,

    Neocons can be identified by their membership of the Project for the New American Century (PNAC), and their fellow travelers who support them.

    The PNAC organization proposes military and economic global domination by the United States, so as to establish and maintain American dominance in the world. The American invasion of Iraq in March of 2003 was the first step in furthering these plans.

    PNAC members are William Kristol, Richard Perle, Paul Wolfowitz, Norman Podhoretz, John Bolton, Elliot Abrams. Dov S. Zakheim, Abram Shulsky, I. Lewis Libby, Seth Cropsey, Paula Dobriansky, Robert B. Zoellick, George Weigel, Aaron Friedberg, Rudy Boschwitz, Peter W. Rodman, Christopher Maletz, Stephen Rosen, Randy Scheunemann, Ellen Bork, Eliot A. Cohen, Reuel Marc Gerecht, Charles Krauthammer, Reuel Marc Gerecht, Fred Ikle, Donald Kagan, Gary Schmitt, Zalmay Khalilzad, Donald Rumsfeld, Gary Bauer, William J. Bennett, Jeb Bush, Thomas Donnelly, Steve Forbes, Frank Gaffney, Jeane Kirkpatrick, Francis Fukuyama, Bruce Jackson, Daniel McKivergan, Dan Quayle, Henry Rowen, R. James Woolsey, Richard Cheney and Richard Armitaage.

    None have been in military combat, and practically none have had military service experience. The common characteristic is they have done the utmost to avoid military service. Yet, they are the ones who want to go to war — but only if others do the fighting and dying.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    Dave never really says what he thinks is wrong with the execution, and even if he did, what qualifies his opinion.

  • Clavos

    Dean:

    You and Les Slater hang out together, don’t you?

  • Clavos

    Yet, they are the ones who want to go to war — but only if others do the fighting and dying.

    So what else is new? Since time immemorial, old politicians and generals have sent young men to war.

    LBJ was a hell of a lot older than I was when he sent me to Vietnam.

    Oh wait, I forgot–he sent me because I voted for Goldwater.

  • Dean

    So what else is new?

    We didn’t have the PNAC agitating for a preemptive war” based on fabricated “intelligence.”

  • Dean

    Clavos

    Why do you bring up Les Slater? I don’t know him. So what does he have to do with my opinion?

    Is that the best you can do?

    Sad.

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    It’s a tough call, but “neo-con” might be even more of a pejorative label than “liberal.”

    I don’t consider ‘liberal’ perjorative at all. ‘Neocon’ and all the Straussian pseudo-Stalinism that comes with it is much more deserving of use as a perjorative.

    Dave

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    I, like Dazey, am still confused when you say there isnt the will to apply “enough force.” It sounds as if you are saying there isnt adequate military force. If that’s the case I would remind you of the pengagon study explaining the real problem is the use of excessive and unnecesary force.

    There is an ambiguity in the use of the word ‘force’ here. There’s a difference between the force applied and the forces we send. One of the reasons why our troops have had to use excessive force (meaning more violence) is that there are not enough forces (meaning boots on the ground) to do the same job without excessive aggression. Small forces faced with large problems often overcompensate as a result, attempting to make up with force what they lack in numbers.

    If what you’re really saying is there is not enough political will to do what’s really right, only a shallow pandering to public opinion, my question is…how can you tell? Is Bush and the military pandering to public opinion???

    It’s another issue, but yes, they certainly are pandering to public opinion. It’s what they do.

    Not being an expert in military tactics or foreign policy, I have no idea what the best way to attack and police Iraq would have been.

    Indeed, since you seem to have muddled up tactics and strategy. It’s our strategy in Iraq which is weak. The day to day tactics of our forces seem to be relatively good, or at least evolving in a positive way.

    If I dont know the best way, how can I be sure Bush is doing it wrong and is pandering to the press? Certainly his objectives in Iraq seem to be rather fluid, a sign that he is perhaps merely adapting to public opinion, but perhaps that is for other reasons.

    That fluidity is certainly a sign. But the fact that he’s pandering is demonstrated by his unwillingness to do either of the two things which would be inpopular. Either go in there with 500,000 troops and lock the damned country down for 6 months, or pull out alltogether and wash his hands of it. Anything inbetween those two approaches is weak.

    What I do know is that the results are unacceptable. If this is the best we can do, we shouldnt have gone. That I do know.

    That’s essentially what I and Clavos and others have been saying.

    Dave

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    Dave suggests a lack of will to “apply enough force,” which implies improper execution. How can he or I know the execution is wrong?

    Because it hasn’t worked. I don’t pretend to be an expert on military tactics in the field, but I do have a basic understanding of history and how to wage a war. You don’t do it incrementally or by half-measures if you expect to win a definitive victory.

    Dave

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    Re #222

    Dean, I see you’re capable of quoting both Wikipedia and some propaganda, but that you have not the first fucking idea who the Neocons are (aside from quoting a bunch of names) or what they believe in.

    Go read up on Leo Strauss and the history of the Neocon movement. And if you think the Neocons are conservative after actually educating yourself on their beliefs then you’re lying to yourself.

    The neocons are disaffected leftist socialists who were driven out of the democratic party and whose Stalinistic belief in an aggressive foreign policy made them fellow travellers of the hawkish elements in the Reagan administration, which got them into the GOP. Gratuitous military intervention and nationbuilding is totally antithetical to any rational conservative position. It’s pure international socialism.

    Dave

  • Dean

    “I don’t pretend to be an expert on military tactics in the field, but I do have a basic understanding of history and how to wage a war. You don’t do it incrementally or by half-measures if you expect to win a definitive victory.”

    Too bad Bush and his neocons didn’t consult Dave before drawing up battle plans.

  • Dean

    “And if you think the Neocons are conservative after actually educating yourself on their beliefs then you’re lying to yourself.”

    Dave — when did I ever say the Neocons are conservative?

    They are idiots.

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    Dean, they’re NOT idiots. The Neocons are extremely bright, even brilliant thinkers. That doesn’t mean they’re right about much of anything, but they have a coherent world view and a philosophy of military and foreign policy which makes perfect sense right up to the point where it has to be implemented by and upon human beings who happen not to behave the way the Neocons expect them to. Then it all falls apart.

    Dave

  • I’m Chinese!

    “Clavos, initially I had just assumed they were all the same guy posting under different names, but checking the IPs was interesting. They are different people. Two of them are in China (Beijing and Shenzen) and one is in the UK (London). I believe China does follow the same practice as North Korea and has professional blog scanners who seek out threads to post in their government’s defense in response to anti-Chinese articles. Given the location of two of the commentors and the fact that normal Chinese citizens in those cities have very restricted access to the outside internet, it wouldn’t be unreasonable to assume we’ve got a couple of shills posting here.

    Dave”

    In you logic, anyones stands for China is a Chinese geovernment agent. Well, following your logic, you must be an FBI or CIA agent because you have not posted any anti-Bush articles.
    Why don’t you post an article,in which you may,like how the author of this post threatens China with military actions , hint with possible actions to take are of President Bush? This will show me how free your country is.

  • I’m Chinese!

    “Dear Asians, you are destined to make the same mistake that Admiral Yamamoto commented, “I think we have woken a Sleeping Giant…”
    When Wal-Mart decides to source its products from a less strident and arrogant country, RedChina’s future empty factories can go back to making those funny little Mao military uniforms for Castro and Chavez.
    Average Chinese I.Q. score 105? Johnathan forgot to put in the multiplier. Best example is the Chinese Yuan in relation to the U.S.Dollar. 1 Chinese yaun = 0.125495708 U.S. dollars. So mathematically 105 Chinee I.Q.’s divided by the official exchange rate of 0.125495708 is equal to an American I.Q. of approximately 837. So mathematically Americans are approximately 8 times smarter than Chinee.
    J.A. Americans are humble and we do have the free world’s respect. Operative word Johnathan is “FREE”. Moreover Americans were admonished by their Great President Theodore Roosevelt, to “speak softly and carry a big… Shillelagh”.”
    you will live long enough to find you are helplessly wrong.
    Let me tell something to you and other Americans who have little history knowledge and think the world started in your Independece Day: if you look at the history in the last 200 years, China was week and poor. If you look at the known history of mankind, we dominate for 90% of the years. China is the only nation who speaks and wrties with the same language for all these years.Young man, China was the top,just like you’re on the top.We fell, and you will,soon.No one can stay on the top forever. You just climbed and think you are superior,and so shallow you are as your culture determines. just like a chess, wo won 9 out of 10, you just won 1 and you think you are the best. No one is more foolish as you are.
    In the 1950’s we fought the Korean war. We were so badly equipped, there were fewer than 20 cannons per division and fewer than 10 shells for each cannon. The steel production was less than 40,000 tons a year. And we drove your American army back to where you started the war.You just won the WWII and so mighty and wo well supplied!
    So we could neutralize you even you were so many times stronger than us then, we can tromp on you and get back to the top as it is destined to us in fewer than 30 years. Keep this post alive and we will see in years.

  • Chinese

    Dave Nalle has been very bad, and seems he has the right to see IPs etc. I don’t even have interest to read his raabish posts.

    How naive he is – just another brainwashed American!

    CNN is brain washing Americans. CNN is just Chinese CCTV(China Central TV), but we are smarter and are not fooled by it.

  • Chinese

    Dave Nalle,

    BTW, you are right I am in London UK at the moment.

  • Chinese

    In a meeting with American colleague, directly after his presentation and went to toilet, a Danish guy laughed and said “Terrible Americans”, A German colleague laughed like a kid…

    Yes, this happended in a so-called “free world”, London UK …

  • http://Submarine Submarine

    #170
    Dave Nalle

    hi there,
    thanks för your professional attention in every aspect. However, I couldn’t go with you about your commentary on kevin #168, as the name ‘Mr.sha zhukang’ mentioned by kevin #168 is right the Chinese ambassador to the UN but the guy ‘Mr. Sha’ that posted #169. Therefore, there might not be anything to do between kevin and Mr. Sha. They are innocent I guess. Thanks.

    Submarine

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    This is for “Chinese”, a fellow who likes to laugh at Americans, and for “I’m Chinese!”, who warns us that in 30 years China will dominate the world. Let me define political will for you, so you understand clearly what is meant. More than once Chinese military men have threatened the United States with nuclear attack, usually over the Taiwan issue.

    The issue itself is not really important though. The point is that China regards itself as willing and able to defeat the United States on the battlefield. It has the Korean War as its proof. It has also defeated India (the second most populous nation on earth) on the battlefield, invading portions of Jammu and Kashmir and the Northeast territories.

    The American leader needs to realize this and face it head on – saying publicly that the planet would be burnt to a nuclear crisp – with China turned to radioactive ash – before any damned Chink got to American soil to raise his flag. It is just that kind of phraseology that the Chinese leadership would comprehend very clearly. It is a mortal threat indicating that the US government didn’t give a damn about whether the planet survived or not – but it would surely not survive under Chinese rule or domination because it would not exist. Period.

    The American government needs to introduce that issue into the thinking of the Chinese leadership – the possibility of not existing at all – or the Chinese will dominate the planet in the coming 30 years.

    If the American leadership is unwilling to do this, then send me that course in Mandarin Chinese. My kids will probably need it when the Red Army comes tramping into Israel from the north.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    In you logic, anyones stands for China is a Chinese geovernment agent. Well, following your logic, you must be an FBI or CIA agent because you have not posted any anti-Bush articles.

    How do you know I haven’t posted any anti-bush articles? Have you read all my articles? Are you aware that I am not the author of this article?

    As for the assumption those posting from China work for the Chinese government, it’s widely known that in China you can’t get access to websites like this from outside the country without government permission. Therefore you have that permission if you are accessing this website, and that means you are most likely working on behalf of the government or at the very least are ‘approved’ as a person with the right sympathies.

    Here in the US there are no restrictions on who can access the internet, therefore people of every belief set or political alignment can post whatever they want.

    Why don’t you post an article,in which you may,like how the author of this post threatens China with military actions , hint with possible actions to take are of President Bush? This will show me how free your country is.

    The author of this post has no authority to order the US military to do anything. You might want to take up your issues with his disapproval of China with him. Here in the US he has the right to criticize China or President Bush or both if he likes.

    Dave

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    You don’t do it incrementally or by half-measures if you expect to win a definitive victory.

    How has Iraq been a half measure?

  • DazeyMai

    Dave: Are you saying every large corporation in America is corrupt? Maybe so – I really don’t know.

    Are you saying Bush is basing his National policy on popular perception? If that were true, he would pull our troops out of Iraq today….but, no, “we are going to stay the course…”. In a democracy, doesn’t majority rule?

    Speaking of being pragmatic rather than emotional..Wouldn’t the practical thing to do have been to stay out of Iraq, spend all that money developing alternative energy sources and strengthening our homeland security?

    Our soldiers do not sign on to die in an illegal, unjustified war brought on by an ignorant Texan backed by a bunch of thugs. They sign on to protect our freedom when it is dangerously threatened. Would you agree with me that 58,000 young troops died in vain in Viet Nam? And, the end result will be that our troops in Iraq are dying in vain.

    I don’t see how we can help establish democracy in Iraq when it barely exists in our own country now. The failure of our peacekeeping efforts tell me they do not want democracy.

    By the way, you are doing a good job of confusing me. I still can’t determine whether or not you are conservative or liberal, Democrat or Republican or how you really, down deep feel about our current administration.

    Next world power? China or India? I’m betting on India.

    Dazey

  • Chinese

    “it’s widely known that in China you can’t get access to websites like this from outside the country without government permission.”

    Dave, you are wrong. Everyone in China can access internet, it is true some websites are blocked, but we can use outside PROXY to access those websites.

    I can access any websites(apart from those sex or dodgy websites blocked by my company) in China, because I am working for a multi-national company, which has direct link to outside internet, so not controlled by China government. Please do some investigation before you draw a conclusion.

    As far as I know, this website is not blocked.

  • Chinese

    Dazey, who is next power is really not important. But I am sure China will be a strong company AGAIN in this centery, considering its intelligent, hardworking people. The Chinese Communist Party is doing not bad, and I would support it if it can tackle corruption successfully.

    Most Chinese hope to have democtatic government, but no hurry.

    Dave, yes, I am in London currently, and still be here for the rest of this year, thanks for exposing this.

  • Chinese

    company – > Country

  • Dean

    Dave —

    “Dean, they’re NOT idiots”

    …Dave, the neocons ARE idiots.

    “The Neocons are extremely bright, even brilliant thinkers”

    …The Neocons are as brilliant thinkers as were the Nazis.

    “That doesn’t mean they’re right about much of anything”

    …You got that right.

    “they have a coherent world view and a philosophy of military and foreign policy which makes perfect sense.”

    …In your Nazi dreams.

    “right up to the point where it has to be implemented.”

    …Is that what makes them brilliant?

    “human beings… happen not to behave the way the Neocons expect them to.”

    …Dr Strangelove would go along with them.

    “Then it all falls apart.”

    …And so does your thinking.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    Dean #246: Your comments are so shallow and flippant Dean, they are really not worth responding to most of the time.

  • Dean

    #221

    pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    “Dave never really says what he thinks is wrong with the execution, and even if he did, what qualifies his opinion.”

    Tell us more…

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    You think more ground troops is the answer Dave? I really dont know more troops would have made a difference, they might have just made more targets. After all the threat does come from inside the country as well. Is there anyone you know with military strategizing experience that agrees more troops could do a better job? I think it was probably just a completely unworkable situation from the beginning no matter what you do.

    Dazey, an excellent first point on how Bush is not pandering to public opinion. Dave, btw, is not a Democrat or Republican, he is a Libertarian, which as far as I can tell makes him a social liberal, a govt minimalist, and pragmatic when it comes to foreign policy. Overall I dont think he really likes Bush, but likes to play devil’s advocate and has greatly appreciated his tax cuts and domestic spending cuts.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    #249, huh?

  • Dean

    Duh.

  • Dean

    A libertarian believes actions that should be forbidden are those that involve the use of force against those who have not themselves used force against them, such as a pre-emptive war. With this in mind, it is inconsistent for a libertarian to support or justify the Iraq war in any manner.

    Is this what Dave has written?

    No.

    He’s more neo-con than libertarian.

    Maybe he’s a neo-lib.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    Forget it man, you just like to listen to your own voice. Anytime you want to explain any of your flippant, simple-minded statements, I would be most impressed.

  • Dean

    Your mind has fallen into a rut.

  • Dean

    I sense a negative reaction to my negative comments about neocons.

    Do we have a closet neocon here?

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    Are you really asking me that? That is the absolute funniest thing I have ever read on blogcritics. Me a clost neocon? Where have you been Dean. I’m a good “liberal.” I hate all wars, I like gay people :), I dont like govt spying, I think Bush is stupid, I find his tax cuts to the rich repulsive, need I continue? In fact, I find I agree with almost everything you say, just not the way you say it.

  • DazeyMai

    China…re #244. I have absolutely no doubt that China is going to be a great world power long before the end of this century. I just happen to think India is slightly ahead at this point. Corruption and arrogance are sending us (America) in a downward spiral incredibly fast, and it will be a miracle if we can even be in third place, but at times when I am in one of my pensive moods, I think that might be a blessing.

    If China is able to establish a democracy, I hope the citizens of your country will always remember what corruption has done to our once-great country. I travel to Europe at least once every year, and the countries who were behind the Iron Curtain are the only ones who show any respect at all for Americans. Last year A young German man looked me in the eye and said “America has not won a war since World War II”. Not 100% true, but almost! A 15 year old boy in Bulgaria looked me in the eye and said, “I hate Bush”…I assured him that most Americans do too. When I first started traveling to Europe 12 years ago, I would argue with Americans who said Europeans hate us because their attitude back then was very different from the scorn and disdain they display now. I have never been to China, but a friend recently returned and said the people were very polite and friendly – especially the children.

    No. 1 – India
    No. 2 – China
    No. 3 – ?????

  • DazeyMai

    PETI #250…Of course, you are right. David is playing devil’s advocate. He knows very well Bush doesn’t give a hoot what the public wants, but as he says….it is his job to confuse us. But, at times I think he is testing some posters just to see if they will argue with him. And, guess what? I am amazed at the number of people who fall under his spell. You know – kinda like “well, David said it, so it must be true, and I wanna be David’s pal”. Those things make the boards interesting and fun though. Thank goodness for the boards because God forbid anyone try to discuss politics at any social gathering.

  • Dean

    “David is playing devil’s advocate”?

    Dave likes to play top dog in the ‘top posters’ column.

    Much smoke, little fire.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    Lol Dazey, try being 16 and discussing politics with anyone.

    And im not so sure Dave is playing devil’s advocate right now.. I think he believes Bush is conducting Iraq in a way that will best give him popularity. And to some extent that’s true, even if he does do what the people want, it probably wouldnt give him a rise in public image. It’ll look like he messed up in the first place, lied to us, and the media will be full of images of new disastor in Iraq, haunting him and the GOP for the next 5+ years. And certainly up until the people lost faith in Iraq, he was definately using it to boost his poll #s. Half his 2nd campaign was based on “taking the war to the terrorists.”

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    If Dave was going for #s in the posters column he wouldnt spend hours producing 4pg posts, Dean. If anyone is trying to run up his post #s with short, cheap, and completely useless posts (smoke), it’s you. Try writing a post longer than a few lines, in complete sentences, with complete thoughts, a coherent argument, that’s not a personal attack, contains no flippant remarks and is actually worth anybody’s reading.

  • Dean

    Man, you are still smoldering because you were outed.

  • Dean

    #241 pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    “You don’t do it incrementally or by half-measures if you expect to win a definitive victory.”

    “How has Iraq been a half measure?”

    Anyone who doesn’t know how Iraq has been a half measure is a half measure short.

    Go do some reading.

  • Clavos

    Dean, it obviously didn’t occur to you that PETI is asking Dave his opinion about why Iraq has been a half measure.

    Go learn how to read.

  • I’m Chinese!

    “In you logic, anyones stands for China is a Chinese geovernment agent. Well, following your logic, you must be an FBI or CIA agent because you have not posted any anti-Bush articles.

    How do you know I haven’t posted any anti-bush articles? Have you read all my articles? Are you aware that I am not the author of this article?

    As for the assumption those posting from China work for the Chinese government, it’s widely known that in China you can’t get access to websites like this from outside the country without government permission. Therefore you have that permission if you are accessing this website, and that means you are most likely working on behalf of the government or at the very least are ‘approved’ as a person with the right sympathies.

    Here in the US there are no restrictions on who can access the internet, therefore people of every belief set or political alignment can post whatever they want.

    Why don’t you post an article,in which you may,like how the author of this post threatens China with military actions , hint with possible actions to take are of President Bush? This will show me how free your country is.

    The author of this post has no authority to order the US military to do anything. You might want to take up your issues with his disapproval of China with him. Here in the US he has the right to criticize China or President Bush or both if he likes”

    What’s your problem? How do you know I can not have access to foreign sides without government permision? You just raise a false assumption and base all you conclusions on it. I doubt if you had any logic training.

  • Clavos

    Oy vay!

  • I’m Chinese!

    “This is for “Chinese”, a fellow who likes to laugh at Americans, and for “I’m Chinese!”, who warns us that in 30 years China will dominate the world. Let me define political will for you, so you understand clearly what is meant. More than once Chinese military men have threatened the United States with nuclear attack, usually over the Taiwan issue.

    The issue itself is not really important though. The point is that China regards itself as willing and able to defeat the United States on the battlefield. It has the Korean War as its proof. It has also defeated India (the second most populous nation on earth) on the battlefield, invading portions of Jammu and Kashmir and the Northeast territories.

    The American leader needs to realize this and face it head on – saying publicly that the planet would be burnt to a nuclear crisp – with China turned to radioactive ash – before any damned Chink got to American soil to raise his flag. It is just that kind of phraseology that the Chinese leadership would comprehend very clearly. It is a mortal threat indicating that the US government didn’t give a damn about whether the planet survived or not – but it would surely not survive under Chinese rule or domination because it would not exist. Period.

    The American government needs to introduce that issue into the thinking of the Chinese leadership – the possibility of not existing at all – or the Chinese will dominate the planet in the coming 30 years.

    If the American leadership is unwilling to do this, then send me that course in Mandarin Chinese. My kids will probably need it when the Red Army comes tramping into Israel from the north.”

    Hitler is a devil, he killed about 8 million
    Jews for that. Well, the US government is the only one which succesfully genocided a people, the Native Americans! Over 50 million Native Americans were slautered within 100 years, as your cold-blooded Cowboys put it ” a good Indian is a dead Indian”! A larger crime over an extended period is less evil? It is unfair for Hitler! the US government is much evil than the Nazi! Just after WWII,how many civilians have been killed by US troops and troops supported by US?
    From 1950s to 1970s, the US government was not only threatening China with nukes, it really meant to do it!
    As to you, a jerk living in Jerusalem, if you are a Jew, don’t forget We Chinese resucued over hundres of thousands of your grandfathers in 1930s when even the US jews did not extend hands to you. We never want to dominate the planet, even when we could in the last 4000 years. Over 2000 years ago, our Han Wu Di(the Han Wu Emperor) had said, over-extension is the cause of the collapse of an empire. You live in a country a flying bullet can get across, you will never understand that wisdom. By the way, it is Jews who lost their land 2000 years ago and just claimed a piece of land smaller than my city, not we Chinese. Does it clear your boggy mind?

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    Most people dont have to be trained to use logic..

  • Dean

    Clavos, it obviously didn’t occur to you that PETI is asking for an opinion about something that is not an opinion, it’s a fact.

    He needs Dave’s opinion to learn a fact?

    Doesn’t he read?

    What planet has he (and you) been on for the past three years?

    How can anyone believe the US went into Iraq with a plan for success?

    Only a neocon could believe that.

  • Clavos

    What planet has he (and you) been on for the past three years?

    I don’t recall saying anything at all about Iraq, one way or the other, in this thread.

    You really do need to learn how to read.

  • I’m Chinese!

    As to the corrution problem,China is know for its corrution. Over the last 5 years,more a dozen senior officials at the level,say,speaker of the Senate, governors of states, justice department secretary, were put in jail for corruption. At the level of cities and locals, thousands are locked up.But more at large in US. If you see mid-aged Chinese driving fancy cars and wander around luxury hotels, it is likely thet are the wanted corrupted Chinese officials.
    How about America? A larger corruption. The war on Iraq is not in your national interest,but in that of the oil giants and arms giants Bush stands for.Billions of dollars are spent and thousands American lives lost just to boost the profit of few giant firms. All is done under the name of Demoracy and freedom! Has anyone done research how much the loss of national welfare is as a result of the Iraq war?
    The Iraq war is the dfining turning point of American fate. No hegmoney lost its dominance faster than America! Just over 60 years, you dropped from a highness other countries could not even look at to where you are concerned about losing the compitition!You are too young to understand the fates of dynasties!
    The Iraq war helps your giant firms and also revives your No.1 foe, Russia. Thanks to the high oil price, Russia now has so much cash that it repays all its foreign debts ahead of schedule and fast modernizes its military. Your stupid elites push Europ Russia and china together! The alliance bound by costly oil pipelines is more solid than your democratic lips!
    An average Chinese who reads our history will not make these apparent strategic mistakes. It is your expensive elites who spend billions of dollars doing “thinking” and help accelerate your fall!
    I will say, Mr.Bush,carry on,you have done a great job!

  • Dean

    Clavos, it obviously didn’t occur to you that PETI was asking for an opinion about IRAQ.

    That was the subject you injected yourself into.

    Is that too much for your brain to comprehend?

  • I’m Chinese!

    Dave Nalle
    I sincerely invite you to vist China, see it with your own eyes. You don’t know how many young Europeans and Americans are zig-zaging across China with their backbags and sneakers!
    There are tens of thousands of internet cafee across where you can have access to foreign web sites! Try it yourelf!
    You just do not believe there are countries at least as good as US,right?

  • Dean

    I’m Chinese!

    You may not be a master of English grammar, but you speak more intelligently than many who are.

  • Mohjho

    “Well, the US government is the only one which successfully genocided a people, the Native Americans! Over 50 million Native Americans were slautered within 100 years”

    Relax IC. Fact is most of the aboriginal Americans were felled by disease, intertribal warfare and private citizens. Most died well before USA became a country. I put the number of Native Americans killed by our government at less than one million tops. Still nothing to be proud about but well below Stalin’s Soviet Union or Mao’s China. Breath deep now.

  • I’m Chinese!

    Thanks Dean. I hope my suck English is understandable.
    I don’t hate American people. I just hate those who threaten us with military actions. Just as you Americans are proud of what you have accomplished in 200 years(great job), we Chinese are proud of what we have accomplished in the last 5000 years.
    A nation is great not by the up-going path, but also the down-going path. If a nation has never been tested by perils like we suffered over the last 200 years and resurrects as a major power, you can not say the nation is great. Egyt and Babylon were good civilizations,but not great,because their civilization is only relics now, even the peopele died out. The current Egyptians and Iraqs have nothing to do with them. We are different. We are the sole people who have an unbroken history. Many of our Chinese have family books tracing their history back to as long as over 2000 years. We can read books writen 2000 years ago, because the language is almost identical.
    Is America great? Not yet! No tests are made! But I doubt it. America is not a nation, but a conglomerate of different people. The strength of your bonds and loyalty is probably weak. If something really happens to you, your country might break along the ethnic lines. New Orleans is a very good example.
    When we talk about persons, we measure in decades. When we talk about nations, we measure in at least centuries.
    So, Americans, do not say bad words about China,at least we are tested to be great. You have not passed the test.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    Dean #264? Outed? What? Huh? Outed implies other people actually believed your accusation I’m a neo-con. No one, not one, concurred with your baseless allegation. And you nicely skimmed over the six good reasons I gave why I am not a neocon, and I am in fact, a raving liberal/socialist by the standards of most. Did you not read them or could you just not think of a good response? See post #258 for a reminder.

    “How has Iraq been a half measure?”

    Anyone who doesn’t know how Iraq has been a half measure is a half measure short.

    I didnt say Iraq wasnt a half measure. In fact, Iraq is much worse than a half measure. IMO a U.S. presence in Iraq was bound to failure the moment U.S. soldiers stepped on Iraqi soil. My sole objection is that Dave thinks the situation was workable, with a full measure. I, like you Dean, and unlike Dave, believe it could never have worked, even if the entire military and political potential of the United States was brought to bear.

  • I’m Chinese!

    “Well, the US government is the only one which successfully genocided a people, the Native Americans! Over 50 million Native Americans were slautered within 100 years”

    Relax IC. Fact is most of the aboriginal Americans were felled by disease, intertribal warfare and private citizens. Most died well before USA became a country. I put the number of Native Americans killed by our government at less than one million tops. Still nothing to be proud about but well below Stalin’s Soviet Union or Mao’s China. Breath deep now.”
    Your government urged the new immirrants to push to the west and told them whaterver land seized from the Indians were theri property! Is that not a crime? Small pots were lethal to Indians but not to the white. Your forfathers deliberately give clothes and balnkets to unwary Indians! If it is no WMD, I don’t know what it is!
    In 2003, for fear China interven with your invasion of Iraq, your government spread lab-engineered SARS virus in China to keep China busy, killing thousands of Chinese! You did it again! The two first victims of SARS in China in Guanggong province and Beijing both just returned from US!

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    Dean #276:

    I’m Chinese!

    You may not be a master of English grammar, but you speak more intelligently than many who are.

    Here, I will list a few of his more intelligent statements for you.

    Well, the US government is the only one which succesfully genocided a people, the Native Americans! Over 50 million Native Americans were slautered within 100 years, as your cold-blooded Cowboys put it ” a good Indian is a dead Indian”! A larger crime over an extended period is less evil? It is unfair for Hitler! the US government is much evil than the Nazi!

    As if the U.S. government today has anything to do with the atrocities of the 19th century. I think Im Chinese has never heard of affirmative action.

    If you’re not happy with it, just bring it on.I will,and my fellow Chinese will also, show you guys some color!

    A true war-hawk. This along with several other comments about how easily China would crush the U.S. in battle, suffice to show he is more of a neocon than anyone else in this thread.

    You ought to be more careful about who you call intelligent.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    O here Dean this one takes the cake. Now Im Chinese is saying the U.S. engineered SARS to attack China. And his evidence? Two of the victims had recently visited the U.S. Wow. What a detective.

    You really need to watch who you call intelligent.

  • I’m Chinese!

    “As if the U.S. government today has anything to do with the atrocities of the 19th century. I think Im Chinese has never heard of affirmative action.”
    So the next administration will not be held responsible for what Bush did in Iraq? Your military deliberately disguise small bombs like candies and pencils, the Iraq kids pick up and their eyes and hands are blown away but do not kill them! You do this to make the Iraq society full of disabled both physically and emotionally people and will never come back as a regional power! This is what your democratic and free government do!

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    No of course the next administration is not responsible for what the last administration did. They are responsible for cleaning the mess up. And who the hell told you the U.S. disguises bombs as candies? Hmmm certainly not the U.S. govt… not the U.S. military…perhaps your govt? your press? hmmm….

  • I’m Chinese!

    “O here Dean this one takes the cake. Now Im Chinese is saying the U.S. engineered SARS to attack China. And his evidence? Two of the victims had recently visited the U.S. Wow. What a detective.

    You really need to watch who you call intelligent.”

    are you stupid or just can’t read? The FIRST two victims, which means they were the sources of the disaster! They were heavily travelling businessmen, so their subsequent journey spread the virus easily!
    By the way, sucker, I’m using your language to debate with you! if you are good enough, use Chinese to debate with me! I dare you ,loser!

  • Clavos

    Plus, the Native Americans were not “genocided” (genocide is not a verb) there are still hundreds of thousands of them alive, and most of them died of disease.

    From Dictionary.com:

    gen‧o‧cide 
    –noun
    the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.
    [Origin: 1940–45; < Gk géno(s) race + -cide]

  • I’m Chinese!

    “No of course the next administration is not responsible for what the last administration did. They are responsible for cleaning the mess up. And who the hell told you the U.S. disguises bombs as candies? Hmmm certainly not the U.S. govt… not the U.S. military…perhaps your govt? your press? hmmm….”
    So no one is responsible for killing outside your homeland, this is your American way.
    Your government did not tell you that, so it did not happen. What a patriot! You Americans are brainwashed as Soviets were! You are pathetic!

  • Clavos

    Clavos #266:

    Dean, it obviously didn’t occur to you that PETI is asking Dave his opinion about why Iraq has been a half measure.

    Dean #274:

    Clavos, it obviously didn’t occur to you that PETI was asking for an opinion about IRAQ.

    You REALLY CAN’T read. Unbelievable

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    Your government did not tell you that, so it did not happen. What a patriot! You Americans are brainwashed as Soviets were! You are pathetic!

    My govt didnt tell me the earth is flat either, but that doesnt make it true. Your making baseless allegations based on pure speculation and personal emotion. That’s why I think you’re full of hot air.

    So no one is responsible for killing outside your homeland, this is your American way.

    No. I hold the people that actually are responsible, responsible. Why would I hold the next administration responsible for the crimes of this administration? Likewise why would I hold the U.S. govt responsible for something cowboys did 100+ years ago?

  • Clavos

    You’re wasting your time, PETI. These guys just want to disrupt the site and flame the USA; they’re not worth taking seriously.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    Well Im not really trying to convince Im Chinese of anything, im just getting him to say stupid shit like the U.S. started SARS to show Dean what an idiot he is.

  • Dean

    #289
    Clavos

    Does putting words in BOLD and ITALICS make it more believable?

    No.

    It just shows that someone is juvenile enough to believe it does.

  • Clavos

    Good luck!

  • Clavos

    Right, Dean. Watch your blood pressure, old man.

  • Dean

    For all you neocons, I gave credit to IC for the post just prior to mine.

    This is what IC had said:

    “How about America? A larger corruption. The war on Iraq is not in your national interest,but in that of the oil giants and arms giants Bush stands for.Billions of dollars are spent and thousands American lives lost just to boost the profit of few giant firms. All is done under the name of Demoracy and freedom! Has anyone done research how much the loss of national welfare is as a result of the Iraq war?
    The Iraq war is the dfining turning point of American fate. No hegmoney lost its dominance faster than America! Just over 60 years, you dropped from a highness other countries could not even look at to where you are concerned about losing the compitition!You are too young to understand the fates of dynasties!
    The Iraq war helps your giant firms and also revives your No.1 foe, Russia. Thanks to the high oil price, Russia now has so much cash that it repays all its foreign debts ahead of schedule and fast modernizes its military. Your stupid elites push Europ Russia and china together!”

    Anyone care to debate the above?

  • Clavos

    PETI 292:

    Either way, it’s a waste of time…

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    Dean, may I suggest for some light reading, comments 279, 280, 281, and 282. I think you may find Im Chinese is not as intelligent as you might think. And im not a neocon. Please read pose 258 for several good reasons why Im a raving liberal/socialist.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    #296, actually you’re right Dean, that particular quote from IC is pretty good, although some of it is speculative. The only major objection I have is that he calls Americans young, which I find insulting.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    And Germany lost its world dominance in WW2 much faster than the U.S. is losing its, although Germany probably wasnt as dominant in 1939 as the U.S. was for much of the later 20th century.

  • Dean

    Picky, picky, picky.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    I dont think it’s picky to disagree with a raving chinese guy who thinks that SARS was a terrorist attack by the U.S. against China.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    And I dont think it’s picky to object to being called a neocon, when in fact I am a raving liberal/socialist. Did you read post #258 and 279?

  • Dean

    Some debate.

    Just a lot of whining.

  • I’m Chinese!

    “Your government did not tell you that, so it did not happen. What a patriot! You Americans are brainwashed as Soviets were! You are pathetic!

    My govt didnt tell me the earth is flat either, but that doesnt make it true. Your making baseless allegations based on pure speculation and personal emotion. That’s why I think you’re full of hot air.

    So no one is responsible for killing outside your homeland, this is your American way.

    No. I hold the people that actually are responsible, responsible. Why would I hold the next administration responsible for the crimes of this administration? Likewise why would I hold the U.S. govt responsible for something cowboys did 100+ years ago?”

    That’s you American naive logic. At one hand, you unseasoned Americans try to prove China is evil for what you claim Chairman Mao did(he did defeat your mighty army with his ill-equiepped army) even 30 years after he left this world. And at the other hand, you do not even shoulder any responsibility for what you last adeministration did. This is a young country does: yours is mine, and mine is also mine. Your country is like a kid with too much power.
    Germany paid for its atrocities in the WWII. That is a mature nation with great men like Goethe and Beethoven. German knows the succession of geovernment also means the succession of obligations, not only rights. Only you young Americans just want the good and leave the bad.

  • I’m Chinese!

    “Well Im not really trying to convince Im Chinese of anything, im just getting him to say stupid shit like the U.S. started SARS to show Dean what an idiot he is.”
    Well, I’ll tell you this: American government is more evil than you can imagine. It can use any means to achieve its goal. No self-proclaimed democratic government like US uses torture of POWs as a legal means. Chemical weapons and bio weapons are always at hand to use by US military. In the Korean war, your army used bio weapons in Northeast China. There are museums of that. And the famous orange agent in VietNam is so notorious.
    The world largest dam-the three gorges dam is a target for destruction, claimed by your PacificCom chief, a direct breach of international law. Any Chinese verbal attack on US is a restrained response to a US verbal offensive!
    No government will bomb another country’s embassy.You American did, and claimed it a mistake.
    As to the SARS attack, it is not purely speculative. I surely can not show evidence,because I do not have any. But there is no convincing path of mutation from virus commonly found in wild animals to what killed so many Chinese.The outburst of the plague was also calculated.It was just the Chinese new year, when hundreds of millions of Chinese return to thei home.Just like the flu after the WWI was spread by home going soldiers, this pattern is the same.The climax of the disaster was precisely when US invaded Iraq! Who can deny the ill intention? This act is not just to stop possible Chinese intervention of Iraq, it is intented to cause as many casualties as possible in China! It is a foiled genocide!!

  • I’m Chinese!

    When I returned from Beijing to my hometown, I was quarrantined at the airport for 7 days because Beijing was severely inflicted. 7 days later I called my mom and returned to Beijing because the holiday was over and I had to go back to work in Beijing. I might be one of the victims of your evil government!

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    Dean #304: It’s whining to disagree with someone who is saying SARS was a terrorist attack? So you can call me a neocon but when I disagree with you it’s whining? Ok Im declaring you a neocon, and if you disagree your just a whiner.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    IC 304: So under your logic we should send the next president to jail because of the crimes the last president commited?

    You seem to forget the government of the U.S. today, did not commit a single one of the atrocities you cite. Except Iraq. Which is an atrocity and for which Bush ought to pay through the nose for.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    And who says im blaming the current chinese government for anything Mao did. Dont put words in my mouth please.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    As to the SARS attack, it is not purely speculative. I surely can not show evidence,because I do not have any.

    Now there’s a contradiction. “I dont have any evidence but it’s not speculative.” Right…

  • Dean

    IC, I gave you credit in #296 where you made statements borne out by fact.

    Some of the points you make are very good.

    Please be careful and do not make accusations which have no factual proof.

    Imagination doesn’t do it.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    Some of the points you make are very good.

    I agree Dean, his comments about Iraq were very insightful. But much of his other comments are raving chinese patriotism…

  • I’m Chinese!

    The SARS virus is resistant to all known western medicines, even if some works, severe after-effect still hurt the victims. Thanks to our ancestors,Chinese medicine works! That is why Hongkong, where they soly relied on western medicine, failed to save many lives. Beijing and other larg Chinese cities first used also western medicines, then they found Chinese medicines work best. So the death toll quickly dropped. As one Russion senior official said, the plague would end in May, because the temprature is too high for the virus.Why?He said,it was originally designed for Russia, where it is much cold.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    You dont need to design a virus to thrive in cold climates. Many viruses naturally thrive on the weak imune systems of people living in cold climates.

  • Dean

    PETI, if you want to declare me a neocon, go ahead.

    I won’t whine.

    And methinks thou dost protest too much.

  • I’m Chinese!

    “As to the SARS attack, it is not purely speculative. I surely can not show evidence,because I do not have any.

    Now there’s a contradiction. “I dont have any evidence but it’s not speculative.” Right…”
    you did not go through the terrible months!It is not an imaginary accusation.Just ask yourself,who will benifit most from SARS in China? It is surely US.So it is mostly likely US did it, because it had the ability and motive!

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    If you you’re going to quote shakespeare, quote it correctly.

    Thou doth protest too much, methinks.

    doth, not dost.

    Fine, dont whine, but personally I think it quite reasonable to point out the absurdity of your baseless accusation. Funny thing is, we’re on the same side, and you’re determined to pick a fight with me.

  • Dean

    IC, you say, “who will benifit most from SARS in China? It is surely US.”

    How so?

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    #317, that’s the very definition of speculation. Just because there was ability and motive doesnt mean it actually happened. The U.S. has the ability and motive to do a lot of thing that it doesnt do. As does China.

  • I’m Chinese!

    “IC, you say, “who will benifit most from SARS in China? It is surely US.”

    How so?”
    1.China had a new administration in late 2002. US wanted to test the new leadership
    2.US was determined to invade Iraq for Bush’s personal agenda. china firmly opposed it. US wanted to keep China busy and unable to intervene.
    3.Every Chinese new year, hundreds of millions of Chinese migrate within the boarder, it is a good chance to spread virus and kill some of it.It will surely weaken China a lot,maybe decades. It fits the Bush ideology in 2000-2003.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    O, so it must have happened.

  • I’m Chinese!

    In May, the SARS plague was under control in China, as the Russian official predicted! It means Russians know this virus!And their claim it is a bio weapon is plausible!

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    Any biologist cold have told you the virus would die off in warmer weather. In fact a lot of 4th graders know people get sick more in winter. And I know a lot of biologists, and 4th graders, who disagree with your russian official.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    And if the Russians “know the virus” maybe they were the ones who made it. It’s just as plausable as your bologna about the U.S.

  • I’m Chinese!

    you tell me, why a virus latent on wild animals which chinese had contact with for thousands of years suddenly mutated to a killer when US badly needed to weaken China at least for a while?

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    You think more ground troops is the answer Dave? I really dont know more troops would have made a difference, they might have just made more targets.

    I think that is is a possible answer, yes. Certainly taking the approach we have taken would have worked bettwe with two or three times the troops. To find the ideal approach to the problem you’d have to go back and start over alltogether. Bush’s course of action was certainly not the ideal one, but it was an easy one to take and easy to execute badly.

    After all the threat does come from inside the country as well. Is there anyone you know with military strategizing experience that agrees more troops could do a better job?

    Yes. This has been a constant demand from General officers in the field and from the pentagon, stopping at the hand picked people on the Joint Chiefs.

    I think it was probably just a completely unworkable situation from the beginning no matter what you do.

    Overwhelming force can solve almost any problem. If we had essentially evacuated the country, levelled all the cities and then only let back in the people we approved the problem would have been solved, but wouldn’t have been a terribly popular or realistic plan.

    Dazey, an excellent first point on how Bush is not pandering to public opinion.

    Except that she’s wrong. Dazey thinks that there’s only one public opinion – the one she shares. But Bush has been catering to another audience whcih doesn’t share her viewpoint, which has become a smaller group, but was probably dominant after 9/11. And in not applying overkill to Iraq and being as harsh with the country as he could be, Bush is pandering to Dazey’s side. One of the reasons his strategy has been ineffective is his weakness in listening to the quibbles and gripes of the left.

    Dave, btw, is not a Democrat or Republican, he is a Libertarian, which as far as I can tell makes him a social liberal, a govt minimalist, and pragmatic when it comes to foreign policy.

    I’m actually a Republican who believes in the Liberal principles on which the party was founded. Which means that I do believe we should have a foreign policy, which Libertarians generally don’t.

    Overall I dont think he really likes Bush,

    Actually, I rather like Bush. I just don’t like the job he’s done as president and his failure to fulfill certain of his promises.

    but likes to play devil’s advocate

    Someone has to.

    and has greatly appreciated his tax cuts and domestic spending cuts.

    Actually, I feel that they’re totally inadequate. The tax cuts should have been full-fledged tax reform, and the spending cuts are nothing but a token gesture. But they’re better than nothing.

    I sense a negative reaction to my negative comments about neocons.

    Do we have a closet neocon here?

    And finally, by accusing PETI of being a Neocon, Dean announces that we should stop reading anything he posts.

    Dave

  • I’m Chinese!

    and how this killer virus mutated directly to the way it can resist all known western medicines in China?

  • Dean

    IC, what I would deduce, if anything, is that the Russians who knew about this virus would have been the ones you should point your finger at.

    Not that I believe it, but that would be the most plausible speculation.

  • I’m Chinese!

    “And if the Russians “know the virus” maybe they were the ones who made it. It’s just as plausable as your bologna about the U.S.”

    Russia then needed us badly to resist NATO and US in Ukrain,Poland and Iraq. It is not in its interest to weaken China then

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    Because it only requires one simple mutation. If it’s resistant to one medicine it’s probably resistant to them all, because all medicines variants on a few varying methods. If you bypass those few methods, you bypass all the medicines that use that method. For example, all antibiotics work in the same general way.

  • I’m Chinese!

    Dave Nalle

    As a Chinese, I agree you send more GI to Iraq.
    VietNam war helped us a lot and brought Nixon to the forbidden city. I hope you send another 200,000 GI there.Then in five years your new president will come to ask for help in a descend pullover.

  • Dean

    “And finally, by accusing PETI of being a Neocon, Dean announces that we should stop reading anything he posts.”

    Oh, Oh. Dave is back.

    Dave says to stop reading what I post.

    I guess neocons don’t like to have their identity known.

    I know that whenever the word neocon appears, it gets Dave to breathe heavily and sweat.

    He wants to remain in the closet and cringes at the thought of being outed.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    Yes. This has been a constant demand from General officers in the field and from the pentagon, stopping at the hand picked people on the Joint Chiefs.

    Can you point me to any articles please, im interested.

    Overwhelming force can solve almost any problem. If we had essentially evacuated the country, levelled all the cities and then only let back in the people we approved the problem would have been solved, but wouldn’t have been a terribly popular or realistic plan.

    Except doing so creates more problems than it solves. Which is why I think it was unworkable. The more troops you apply, the more control you exert in Iraq, and the more success you have in Iraq, the more you piss of radical Islamic groups, and several European and Asian countries. The use of overwhelming force would just make more enemies and still ultimately lead to a failure, of a new kind.

    Actually, I rather like Bush. I just don’t like the job he’s done as president and his failure to fulfill certain of his promises.

    Dont you think that’s because he never intended to do a lot of the things he said to do? For example, he promised Co2 legislation, which would have been real easy to get, but has shown no interest in it once elected. He’s said a lot of things which havent turned out to be true..noticing a pattern?

    and the spending cuts are nothing but a token gesture.

    You left out the word domestic. He has increased spending, but has decreased domestic spending. And ill never understand why you want such massive domestic spending cuts at the expense of public education, SS, medicare etc, government agencies like FEMA, the NHC, NOAA, scientific research grants, college loan funding, disastor clean up funding, etc.

    And finally, by accusing PETI of being a Neocon, Dean announces that we should stop reading anything he posts.

    lol.. thanks for clearing that up.

  • I’m Chinese!

    frankly, American strategists should be drag out and lined against wall and excuted. It is these book worms that kicked your country off its golden top.
    In the 1950s, these glass men devised cold war strategies and over extended your resources. Two wars finished your hegmoney. the Korean war and the VietNam war. Just 20 years they wasted your accumulation of pwer and fame.
    Now the NeoCons devised the Iraq war. This time the pittiful reserve left by Clinton is burnt within 2 years. This very expensive hole will cost your fortune. America will be an average country after that.
    You know how China selects leaders? Through very firece internal competition. American domestic politics is children’s game compared to chinese ones. do not foreget for 4000 years chinese had to be cunning and shrewd to survive. Those can climb over the ladder are the cream of the crop.Very sophsiticated and very wise. It is a culture thing, because we are born and raised in a very complex game.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    IC #332, it’s hard to have respect for anyone that wants hundreds of thousands of young Americans to die. I find that rather disgusting. I would never wish the same on the Chinese youth, no matter the circumstances.

    Did you really call this guy intelligent Dean?

  • I’m Chinese!

    “IC #332, it’s hard to have respect for anyone that wants hundreds of thousands of young Americans to die. I find that rather disgusting. I would never wish the same on the Chinese youth, no matter the circumstances.

    Did you really call this guy intelligent Dean?”

    It is your President who ordered the invasion. You feel sorry for your American lives. How about those innocent Iraq people bombed apart in their homes and the killer pilots will have bronze metal? how about the 2000 Chinese died of SARS spread by your government?
    I only hear about you sorry for you American. I feel repulsed by your ignorance of NonAmerican lives!

  • I’m Chinese!

    Remember this, if you treat other people like animals, they will treat you like animals. That is why Iraqis chop off the heads of taken Americans. Why don’t you stop to think why they would do such horrible things?

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    I feel repulsed by your ignorance of NonAmerican lives!

    I believe I just said I would never want chinese young men to die. Were you not paying attention?

    Remember this, if you treat other people like animals, they will treat you like animals.

    I never disagreed. In fact, I have used this very same logic in post #334.

    You wish the President would send more men, so more men would die. I find that sick. You are a sick man Im Chinese.

  • I’m Chinese!

    “You wish the President would send more men, so more men would die. I find that sick. You are a sick man Im Chinese.”

    When you talk about should more troops sent to Iraq, you and your counterparts are not sick. Now I said I agree more US troops sent there, then I am sick. Your American logic is every where

  • I’m Chinese!

    “You want them sent there so they will die. That’s not why any American wants troops deployed. And I never said I wanted troops deployed at all. Ive already stated several times quite clearly, in plain englis, I disaprove of the war.

    Anyone that wants 100s of thousands of innocent young men to die is sick.”
    you feel sick as long as they are American!
    If they are Chinese civilians, you just pop another beer and joke about it with your pals. This is how americans treat other people!

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    Do not presume for one second to put words in my mouth. It has very little to do with the fact that they are American. I have several chinese friends and I doubt they would appreciate any sick joke I could make about Chinese people dieing. You are pumped full of generalizations about Americans it never ceases to amaze me. If you want to attack the compassion of America to citizens of other nations, perhaps you should remember that Chinese international aid is statistically insignificant compared to American international aid.

  • I’m Chinese!

    you know how many people live along Yangtz river?Over 300 million, and your government claims the Three gorges Dam is a primary target!
    Are you sickened by these inhuman talkings of your senior officials and officers?

  • I’m Chinese!

    “Do not presume for one second to put words in my mouth. It has very little to do with the fact that they are American. I have several chinese friends and I doubt they would appreciate any sick joke I could make about Chinese people dieing. You are pumped full of generalizations about Americans it never ceases to amaze me. If you want to attack the compassion of America to citizens of other nations, perhaps you should remember that Chinese international aid is statistically insignificant compared to American international aid.”

    Yes, as you mentioned, you can come to Chinese customes and see for yourself how many you American donations are used medicare instruments full of blood and other contaminated things or outdated food even animals would not sneeze! My friend works in Guangdong custome! Less than 20% of US donations are acceptable! The Europeans are really nice people. Almost all their donations are good. Shame on you to talk about international donations!

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    You are referring to private donations of food etc. by misinformed citizens. I was referring to the monetary international aid by the U.S. government, which is many many times larger than Chinese international aid.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    Never mind the fact that you in China are still in need of aid from Europe and America.

  • I’m Chinese!

    if you can read Chinese, these are some links to you so called donations. You Americans use donations as garbage disposal! You just pack the garbage and send them to china, saying it is aid! How cold-blooded you Americans are!
    xinhuanet.com
    sina.com.cn

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    #344, Ive already stated several times, many senior officials in my government make me sick. How many times do I have to say it for you to actually get the picture?

    Besides, these senior officials arent wishing to kill those 300,000,000 people. They just have it as a potential military strategy. Im sure your government does the same thing for U.S. targets.

    The difference is you just wished death on 200,000 people. Anyone that wishes death on innocent people is obviously inhumane and disgusting.

  • I’m Chinese!

    the number of links is limited here

  • I’m Chinese!

    “Never mind the fact that you in China are still in need of aid from Europe and America.”

    You can not argue with me in the current topic so you try to show you are richer. So richer is righter? I thought your American democracy taught you everyone is equal no matter how poor or rich he is. Why don’t you talk to Bill Gates?

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    I dont need to try and show we are richer. It is a well accepted and well known fact we are richer. And Im not ashamed to repeat it.

    I already easily dismissed the bull about U.S. aid being no good. The U.S. has sent doctors and money to many many needy groups around the world. Dont really see to many chinese doctors travelling to Haiti or Africa or Indonesia..

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    Schools around the country buy animals and send them to families that can breed them and use their meet and milk. Any accusation that Americans dont have empathy for foreigners is a load of bull. Perhaps some Americans are not very compassionate. But a large majority are. And it shows. Far more than it shows in China.

  • I’m Chinese!

    “I dont need to try and show we are richer. It is a well accepted and well known fact we are richer. And Im not ashamed to repeat it.

    I already easily dismissed the bull about U.S. aid being no good. The U.S. has sent doctors and money to many many needy groups around the world. Dont really see to many chinese doctors travelling to Haiti or Africa or Indonesia..”

    you go to Africa, ask them about Chinese doctors, you’ll know the truth. I tell you, there is a policy, every year different cities will choose their doctors to go to africa to help them. You just don’t know yet.

    As to the wealth, just answer me: does it make you righter than me here?

  • I’m Chinese!

    In the 1960’s we help Zambia and Tansania build the first railway south of Sahara, we paid all! Remember we had barely enough to eat then!

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    As to the wealth, just answer me: does it make you righter than me here?

    Uhh no. Did I ever remotely imply such? No. You continue to put words in my mouth.

    You cant win this one man. The statistics are on my side. The United States sent over 2.4 billion in disastor relief in 2003, which is 40% of the world total. The U.S. sent over 60% of the world’s food donations.

  • I’m Chinese!

    since 1963, China sent over 17,000 doctors to 47 Africa nations, helped over 240 million people there!

  • I’m Chinese!

    “Uhh no. Did I ever remotely imply such? No. You continue to put words in my mouth.”
    then why you wrote this?
    “Never mind the fact that you in China are still in need of aid from Europe and America.”
    Your American democracy or your bible taught you this lovely thinking?

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    Proportionally, those numbers are insignificant.
    Chen Jian, assistant minister of commerce in China, acknowledges that the humanitarian aid budget in China is strictly limited and claims “the Chinese Government can only provide assistance…within its capability.”

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    Jesus, how many generalizations can you come out with. Ive never read a page of the bible. No wait not true, I think my parents dragged me to church once when i was 5 years old.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    You’re image of Americans is so wrong it’s pathetic.

  • DazeyMai

    Talk about inane pratter and senseless chatter..Dean and IC win the trophy.

    Dave, aren’t you aware that more than 60% of Americans think we should get out of Iraq. I wonder why Cheney and Rove have not told Bush he needs to suck up to us? Maybe Halliburton needs a few more contracts. Oh well, goodnight.

  • I’m Chinese!

    pal, I don’t like going to wars and I don’t want foreign nation to wedge wars on us. It’s the last thing on my mind to conquer America. But I believe weakening china is top on your government’s agenda. We have to increase our defense budget, because otherwise, I’ll have to kiss your Yankee ass to survive and I hate to do it. That is why I put so many words here.Any way, I like talk to you. To communicate in another language with forgein people is an educating experience.
    I feel you are a straight man. I like it. In Chinese, there is a saying: man(male) will know each other better after a good fight. hehe,I bet it is true also in your culture.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    Military spending to defend against the U.S. is pointless. No U.S. leader would ever be elected that is reckless enough to attack a nation with so many people, so many economic ties to the U.S., and such a strong military already. Sure Bush has the gall to interfere in a corrupt Arab state, but waging war with a nation like China is the last thing on anybody’s list of things to do.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    In Chinese, there is a saying: man(male) will know each other better after a good fight. hehe,I bet it is true also in your culture.

    Most Americans are not as confrontational as I am. Many, not all, prefer to just go about their business and be happy, even if something is wrong. But I agree with your statement.

  • I’m Chinese!

    “Military spending to defend against the U.S. is pointless. No U.S. leader would ever be elected that is reckless enough to attack a nation with so many people, so many economic ties to the U.S., and such a strong military already. Sure Bush has the gall to interfere in a corrupt Arab state, but waging war with a nation like China is the last thing on anybody’s list of things to do.”

    You bombed our embassy in Yogoslavia in 1998. Your reconnaisance plane invaded our territory and knocked one of our jet in 1999. You deploy 2/3 of your attack subs and 1/2 your ground troops around China.You practice to assemble 7 out of your 9 standing carrier battlegroups in west Pacific! You don’t mean what you said,right? Your government does not do it for fun!

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    Certainly things are tense between China and the U.S. But there is no U.S. leader stupid enough to start a war. Millions would die. Not a good idea.

  • I’m Chinese!

    To those who believe China is like North Korea, come to China,see it for yourself. I have cable TV: BBC and CNN HBO in my home, each costs me 50 yuan(about 7 dollars). I feel bored with these news and because of HBO always plays old movies, and cancelled them. Now I watch Discovery,Hallmark,AXN, and I will buy National Geography next month. I know the world as well as most Americans. But do you know anything about China except for those biased coverage?

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    I know some from what chinese friends tell me. One of my friends is from Taiwan, the other is from somewhere south, inland, a recent immigrant to the U.S. I also know the economy of China is growing rapidly. I know they are going to be joining the U.S. as one of the main polluters in the world. I know they make really cheap goods for Walmart. I know a Chinese scientist used the bodies of executed chinese prisoners to put on a display called the “Bodies” exhibit touring NYC and other American cities. I know China has vaste coal resources in the mountains correct? I know China has one of the most interesting and succesful cultures in ancient history, although I have never studied it, my brother tells me stories of the different rulers and Empires of China.

  • Jonathan Asian

    Hey, Ruvy, I would like to assume that you were just trying to be humorous, but you did not quite make it.

    Remember that China is a good friend of Israel. It was even a refuge for Israelis who had to flee their country during critical periods in the past. Don’t spoil the relationship between China and Israel.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    To be honest I dont think China gets much biased mainstream media coverage. The only mainstream coverage I see of China is mostly about the growing economy and industry. Which is true.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    You’re not the only one fed up with CNN. I dont think they’re very biased. But they have virtually no content. Most Americans hate CNN. Do you watch MASH on Hallmark IC? I like MASH…

  • I’m Chinese!

    “I know some from what chinese friends tell me. One of my friends is from Taiwan, the other is from somewhere south, inland, a recent immigrant to the U.S. I also know the economy of China is growing rapidly. I know they are going to be joining the U.S. as one of the main polluters in the world. I know they make really cheap goods for Walmart. I know a Chinese scientist used the bodies of executed chinese prisoners to put on a display called the “Bodies” exhibit touring NYC and other American cities. I know China has vaste coal resources in the mountains correct? I know China has one of the most interesting and succesful cultures in ancient history, although I have never studied it, my brother tells me stories of the different rulers and Empires of China.”

    To much is negative coverage. China has a fascinating history of arts science and architecture and cuisine. French is known for its cuisine in the West, but compared to China, French is an apprentice.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    “French is known for its cuisine in the West, but compared to China, French is an apprentice.”

    Well that’s a matter of taste now istnt it…

    “To much is negative coverage.”

    It wasnt coverage. Most of it was personal experience. I went to the bodies exhibit. And how is too much negative? All of it is true. Notice I said China will soon join the U.S. as the main polluter. That implies that right now the U.S. is worse. I was being factual. Not biased.

  • Rugged Chinese

    Hi, ‘Chinese’ and ‘I am Chinese’, give Dave and others a chance to keep quiet. When they know that they are wrong, they can’t respond much to your messages.

    If they have read #142, they will understand what is going on in China.

    Well, thank you for your contributions at this site. We can continue to communicate here under different names (with the same or different IP addresses). The most important thing is that they can see the issues in a broader perspective.

  • I’m Chinese!

    There is no much difference between you and me. What we think is how to make our family happy and make more money. I hate those policticans who send others to death while he could evade that risk thanks to a powerful papa. America is going to be a Rome, from republic to empire! Watch out!

  • Handsome Chinese

    Well, ‘pleaseexcuse’, I have been to many countries in Europe. Yes, ‘I’m Chinese’ is right. Everything there tastes like butter, tomatoes, potatoes, bacon or bread only. Let the apprentices learn from Mainland Chinese and Malaysian Chinese.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    The Supreme Court is expected to rule on a case about spying sometime later this year or next year. The court will likely rule against the Bush administration on the grounds that president has exceeded his constitutional authority by authorizing spying on U.S. citizens making international calls. The balance of power still holds strong in the U.S. And Bush’s approval rating plummets into the 30s. Politicians that abuse power, wage stupid wars, and alienate allies will not stay in office in the U.S. The American people may be slow often, but they know when they’re getting the short end of the stick.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    #378, well it’s a matter of taste.

    And I dont think I can ever forgive the Chinese for subjecting us to their cheap dumplings and pork fried rice drenched in soy sauce and oil. Of course I know real Chinese food is not like that, but nevertheless, I cannot forgive you … and damnit why do you always forget the wraps for the duck? why?????? 😉

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    ukk and that green mushy stuff that makes your nostrils burn for an hour! are you trying to kill me? TERRORIST! INFILTRATING OUR SYSTEM WITH GREEN MUSHY “HORSERADISH!”

  • I’m Chinese!

    “Hi, ‘Chinese’ and ‘I am Chinese’, give Dave and others a chance to keep quiet. When they know that they are wrong, they can’t respond much to your messages.

    If they have read #142, they will understand what is going on in China.

    Well, thank you for your contributions at this site. We can continue to communicate here under different names (with the same or different IP addresses). The most important thing is that they can see the issues in a broader perspective.”

    sorry,my english sucks. I do not fully understand this. Do you ask me to shut up and leave?

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    haha why do you care what he’s asking you to do, are you his slave?

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    To I’m Chinese! from comment #269:

    1. You need to work on your English comprehension. You do not understand at all what I wrote about. If you did, you would comprehend the concept I explained and relate it to others.

    2. Don’t waste your time ranting about genocides to me. I know more about the subject than you will in two lifetimes.

    3. Just for your information, MY culture dates back to the invention of writing: 5,766 years, to be precise. We’ve been around for that long using the calendar that we do, though the forms of writing have evolved somewhat. Our understanding of man to the universe is not that old, but put simply, we’ve been around for a little while, about 3,800 years, as a people. We’ve seen empires rise and we’ve seen them fall – Egyptians, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Byzantines, Arabs, Brits, Americans. We were here when they started out and we’ve been there at the funerals – and we will be there for the funerals of the empires that rule now and the ones that think they are now on the rise – like China. You use the analogy of chess to point out just how youthful the American empire is compared to yours, and how foolish the Americans are thinking that the entire chess match is just the one game they seem to have won. It is a good analogy. But all chess games come to an end, and so do chess matches. At the end of the match, the American empire’s little chess piece will be gone – and so will yours.

    But I’m not writing about that subject. I’m writing about the events that will happen before the final destruction of your rising empire…

    I’ll try this one more time, hoping that the other English speakers on the list whose reading comprehension matches mine also understand.

    The two dominant powers on the planet are now America and China. China has threatened America with nuclear attack, having defeated her on the battlefield in Korea.

    America does not have the capability to defeat your nation on the battlefield using conventional combat. It has only two weapons by which it can succeed. One is a soft weapon – culture. If Americans can sell you on “the American way of life” you will not attempt a military confrontation with the United States. You’ll be too busy mowing your lawns and going to shopping malls! At least that is the theory.

    The other weapon is the American nuclear arsenal.

    In my humble opinion, stopping Chinese domination of the planet will require the willingness to use that arsenal – to the point of destroying the planet and effectively committing suicide – to prevent Chinese domination. We face another Mutual Assured Destruction scenario between your country and the United States if the United States is to remain independent. I don’t bother to talk about Israel here; for at the moment, it is a pathetic dependency of the United States.

  • I’m Chinese!

    #378, well it’s a matter of taste.

    And I dont think I can ever forgive the Chinese for subjecting us to their cheap dumplings and pork fried rice drenched in soy sauce and oil. Of course I know real Chinese food is not like that, but nevertheless, I cannot forgive you … and damnit why do you always forget the wraps for the duck? why?????? 😉

    hehe. If you come to China, I promise you the best food in the world! I was once in LA. My friend took me to a god-know-where Chinese restaurant. It was like one, but it tasted so bad, just like your food. I complained to my friend. He replied: if they cook like in China, it will close soon. No Americans can take that. So it is your Americanization of the Greate Chinese cuisine makes it taste so bad!
    By the way,”the green mushy stuff” is not Chinese food, it is Jap food. These savage like eat bloody food and use it to cover the smell. Do you know Japs like eating human flesh,especially the babies?

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    You know the guys you’re talking to are government agents instructed to say what they’re saying here dont you?

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    Yes, Americanization is gross. Salty, greasy ick. And I would imagine that human flesh probably tastes pretty good. But as far as I know, Japs dont eat it on any sort of regular basis. Americans are more appalled by the horse and dog eating that goes on in China.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    Although I hear that eating horse and dog is rare and farely taboo in China.

  • I’m Chinese!

    this is the pictures taken during Jap invasion of China. Chinese POWs and civilians were eaten alive and pictures were taken by Jap soldiers as symbol of courage and triumph.
    Please distinguish Jap from Chinese!

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    PETI,

    Information goes both ways. That is why I wrote what I did.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    Well I have to go to bed and I would forgive you except for your wish that 200,000 more soldiers go to Iraq to die. Although I think and hope this may be something said in the heat of the moment, and not something that truly lies in your heart.

  • I’m Chinese!

    #384
    Ruvy in Jerusalem

    1. Jews saw empires come and go,as slaves.We have always been our owm masters and slaves for longer than your civilization. That is the basic difference between you and me. That determines our difference of viewpoint and interest.
    2. America has everything but “culture”. Ask any European with any self esteem, he will laugh when you say American culture. I believe you live most of your life in america.
    3.MAD is outdated. Now we have Nuclear Bondage Strategy. China has the capacity of second strike. But it is not enough! As soon as we find US intending to nuke us, along side the nukes we launch at US, we will throw some on Russia ,France and UK. Why? No major countries will allow another one to be the only surviver and dominate aftermath. So let’s die together is the only option. As Russia and other nuke nations is severly damaged,it will throw all its left nukes at all others. So we will use our nukes as a leverage to concentrate all non-American nukes on US. It is why NMD will fail. You can never build shields fast enough than spears!

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    Yes. This has been a constant demand from General officers in the field and from the pentagon, stopping at the hand picked people on the Joint Chiefs.

    Can you point me to any articles please, im interested.

    There are lots. Here’s a good one on both the suggestions of General Shinseki and why they were not heeded from GlobalPolicy.org.

    The positions on this break down into two groups, those who advocated the use of genuinely overwhelming force from the start, and those who have advocated incremental increases in manpower in Iraq since the active phase of the war ended.

    Actually, I rather like Bush. I just don’t like the job he’s done as president and his failure to fulfill certain of his promises.

    Dont you think that’s because he never intended to do a lot of the things he said to do? For example, he promised Co2 legislation, which would have been real easy to get, but has shown no interest in it once elected. He’s said a lot of things which havent turned out to be true..noticing a pattern?

    Well, he did try to follow through on some of the good plans, but he got stymied by congress on issues like Social Security Reform, but like I said, he’s lacked conviction.

    You left out the word domestic. He has increased spending, but has decreased domestic spending.

    The domestic spending cuts are paltry. I could erase the deficit with a red pen and no one would suffer needlessly.

    And ill never understand why you want such massive domestic spending cuts at the expense of public education, SS, medicare etc, government agencies like FEMA, the NHC, NOAA, scientific research grants, college loan funding, disastor clean up funding, etc.

    We could make the cuts we need without impacting a single vital program and some of the programs like Social Security and Medicare coulkd be massively improved in the process. See my article here.

    Dave

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    I’ve been ignoring the Chinese shills on this thread because I want to stay above criticizing their grammar, which is hard to resist.

    Let me just direct everyone to this letter from Human Rights Watch to President Bush suggesting some issues to bring up at his summit with the Chinese leadership, including such issues as censorship, torture of political and other prisoners, harassment and arrest of AIDS activists, persecution of religions as criminal groups and a lot more.

    Of course they softpedal some of the issues and avoid even addressing China’s various genocidal programs of persecuting ethnic groups like Tibetans and Mongols. They also don’t get around to China’s ecological record which is horrendous. Imagine America’s ecological profligacy of the 1950s and 1960s multiplied by 5.

    But at least someone is trying to hold China accountable for something, inadequate though it is.

    Dave

  • Smart Chinese

    Hi, ‘I’m Chinese’, he is not asking you to shut up and leave. He is just asking you to continue communicating with other Chinese as well. After all, you are the ‘Champion Writer’ here.

    Anyway, do remember that we should not provoke other people into using nuclear weapons. That is silly.

  • I’m Chinese!

    Dave,come on, save your old crap. You God-playing Americans have cried for Chinese “persecution” for over 20 years. As to the torture of prisoners, we Chinese can never match the intensity and creativity of you Americans. At least in Iraq we have seen some,haha!
    As to religion groups, FBI has a good record of cracking down cults at the cost of lot of lives. You can do it so we can not crack down on cults?
    As to the enviroment, you are the number one polluter. Your president vetoed the Kyto treaty.
    I suck in english, but I can write English you can understand. Can you write any Chinese I can understand?

  • Impartial Chinese

    Dear ‘I’m Chinese’, please check your grammar, particularly subject-verb agreement, before publishing what you want to say here. Otherwise, Dave will give us an excuse for his inability to present reasonable arguments (from a balanced perpective) regarding China.

  • I’m Chinese!

    Dear ‘I’m Chinese’, please check your grammar, particularly subject-verb agreement, before publishing what you want to say here. Otherwise, Dave will give us an excuse for his inability to present reasonable arguments (from a balanced perpective) regarding China.

    I’ll try. But like all these bigoted Imperialist, I doubt he can say anything new and convincing except repeating like a parrot about human rights. If he is really concerned,why does not he come to China and do something to “improve” the human rights. I respect those Americans who volunteer to work in remote Chinese villages. They are the true American heros!

  • Competent Chinese

    You are right. Chinese is difficult to learn. That’s why many monolinguals in the U.S. do not understand what is going on in other parts of the world. They only know English.

    Only a small percentage of Americans are beginning to learn Chinese. Most of them don’t understand China because many sentences in Chinese cannot be translated with ease and precision into another language. I am proud that as a Chinese I have published a lot in both languages.

  • I’m Chinese!

    the strength of America lies not in your nuke arsenal,not in you talking americans, but in those average Americans who volunteer to work for no pay or little pay in remote Chinese villages. I saw some of them on TV and my eyes were wet.This is the America we love just as 60 years ago those young Americans came to fight with us against the evil Japs. these American heros build good life with us, not to destroy them.
    America can only be respected if you follow what President Roosevelt did: help others not to dominate them. Your so-called elites undo all the good he did. That’s why I suggest you drag all your elite strategists to a garden and shoot them in the back of heads.

  • I’m Chinese!

    I really don’t understand how you Americans started with a very good place in 1945 and ends now in being the center of hatred in the world!

  • I’m Chinese!

    anyone can read chinese will see how Chinese today disagree with our government. hexun.com

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    I’m Chinese!, you remind me of my father, may he rest in peace. He had a hearing problem and needed a hearing aid to help him. Sometimes, when he didn’t want to be bothered, he would turn off the hearing aid. But whenever someone mentioned money, his hearing was remarkably good!

    The minute I brought up the issue of MAD, your writing got miraculously better! Apparently I pressed the right button. The concept you describe, Nuclear Bondage, is essentially the one that will bring about the destruction of the planet, if implemented. If you and the Americans both are willing to destroy the planet completely, then you are faced with the same standoff that MAD brought you, under a different name. The same woman wearing a different dress, as we say in Hebrew.

    In comment #397, you describe America and Americans in much the same way I do. Those Americans reading this should pay attention because you verify my points.

    As to your question in Comment #398, try reading the work of Joel Bainerman, and you’ll get a very good explanation.

    Finally, slavery and persecution can be great teachers – and more and more Jews are picking up the essential lessons.

  • American Lover

    You said, “I really don’t understand how you Americans started with a very good place in 1945 and end up being the center of hatred in the world!”

    This is because many Americans have moved away from their faith in God since the 1960s. Good Christians are simply caring and loving. What they do can effectively influence millions of people in other parts of the world. More Americans should re-dedicate their lives to Christ.

  • Clavos

    What I see going on here is people of good will and intelligence (PETI, Ruvy, and Dave) who are trying, respectfully and with open minds, to debate government propagandists (all the posters with “chinese” in their handles) who are paid agents of a totalitarian government bent on dominating the world.

    The dead giveaway is that their supervisor is monitoring and admonishing them right here on the thread! (#s 371, 377, 390, 392).

    Good luck…

  • troll

    what a beautifully bizarre thread…as the great Chinese thinkers from Sun Tzu to Mao have said repeatedly – ‘baffle ’em with bullshit’

    (it’s a fucking commie conspiracy I tell ya – !)

    rather than arguing MAD theories why don’t you guys bounce over to a ‘go’ site and work out your dominatrix complexes

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Clavos,

    I’ve had the same impression you’ve had. That is why I have written what I have. It isn’t just these shills reading this thread, the NSA reads it also, along with AMAN (the Israeli version of the NSA), if they have the time.

    So I have a message for the shills and for the other “folks” reading over our shoulders. That message is that if the United States develops the political will to destroy the planet rather than submit to Chinese domination, there will be no Chinese domination. There will be a standoff.

    I see this is my fifth comment on this article. With the sixth, I expect a kosher eggroll.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Dave,come on, save your old crap. You God-playing Americans have cried for Chinese “persecution” for over 20 years. As to the torture of prisoners, we Chinese can never match the intensity and creativity of you Americans. At least in Iraq we have seen some,haha!

    Actually, America’s torture techniques are kind of primitive and boring. The Chinese have so much more history and practice I’m sure we could learn a thing or two.

    As to religion groups, FBI has a good record of cracking down cults at the cost of lot of lives. You can do it so we can not crack down on cults?

    The only example of the US government going after a ‘cult’ that I can think of is the Mt. Carmel incident and that was the ATF, not the FBI. Plus they were hoarding weapons and molesting children. China goes after people for doing exercises in public parks.

    As to the enviroment, you are the number one polluter. Your president vetoed the Kyto treaty.

    No, our congress chose not to ratify it so the president never had to veto it. As for number one polluter, China’s output of pollution relative to its level of industrialization is far higher than the US’s because they’re running with more primitive industrial technology and completely unmonitored and unfiltered.
    I suck in english, but I can write English you can understand. Can you write any Chinese I can understand?

    I’ll try. But like all these bigoted Imperialist,

    Rather than grammar you might want to get away from the Marxist/Lenninist/Maoist jargon. People just find it offputting.

    I doubt he can say anything new and convincing except repeating like a parrot about human rights. If he is really concerned,why does not he come to China and do something to “improve” the human rights.

    Why? Because people who do that get thrown in jail and held without trial and tortured. Go to the China section on the link I posted earlier to HRW.

    Dave

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    I’ve had the same impression you’ve had. That is why I have written what I have. It isn’t just these shills reading this thread, the NSA reads it also, along with AMAN (the Israeli version of the NSA), if they have the time.

    The key difference is that the guys at the NSA and AMAN are reading this and spurting coffee out their noses and laughing, rather than shutting down the site or telling us what to write.

    Dave

  • Mr. Sha

    Clavos #400 & Ruvy 402:

    When I looked at your comments, I couldn’t help to break into a big laughter. You guys are soooooooo far off about what’s going on in China and so brainwashed by CNN and the like. If you just got 1/10 of the smart of “I’m Chinese”, you wouldn’t make such stupid comments. Why don’t just come to China, talk to people on the streets, as see if they are all government agents.

    I am very sure that the people who wrote “all the posters with ‘chinese’in their handles” had eduction or worked in the West, most likely in the US. In contrast, you guys know really almost nothing about China. That’s why in front of “I’m Chinese”, you performed so poorly.

  • troll

    these guys don’t work for the Chinese government…they are spammers for the Association of Travel Agents

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    I think it’s nice that the shills brought their own cheerleaders. All we’ve got is troll and his droll remarks.

    Dave

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Dave Nalle quotes me and answers,in part;

    “…the NSA reads it also, along with AMAN (the Israeli version of the NSA), if they have the time.

    The key difference is that the guys at the NSA and AMAN are reading this and spurting coffee out their noses and laughing,…”

    I don’t know about the guys at the NSA, but the fellow at AMAN is probably thinking, “I’m wishing I am writing as good as ‘I’m Chinese.'”

    Bishvilkhém baním, shiuréi haba’á b’anglít ya’alú rak arba’ím sha”H l’sha’á…

    Translation:

    For you, boys, lessons in English composition will be just NIS 40 per hour…

    That’s damned cheap, but I gotta make money somehow… That reminds me! This is my sixth comment here. I want my kosher eggroll!

  • troll

    (gracias Dave – it’s a grim thankless job and few recent BC threads have been in such need…)

  • Clavos

    Ahh yes, Dave but troll is good for five of them, so we’re even. (“troll” and “droll”–I like that!)

    Welcome to Looney Tunes, troll.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Mr. Sha,

    Not everyone in China is a government agent. That is a costly undertaking. And in essence, I claim to know very little about China;

    What I claim to know:

    1. It has the largest population on the planet,
    2. There are at least a dozen languages that Westerners all call Chinese, all of which are linked by the pictographs used universally in China,
    3. The Chinese invented paper, paper money, rockets, noodles, the concept of “cash” (originally coins all attached to a stalk, broken off as needed),
    4. They have a system of government that others call “communist,” but which is not socialism as we know it…
    5. Chinese civilization is roughly 5,000 years old, as reflected by its most ancient writings,
    6. The Chinese view themselves as the “elder brother” of all the east Asian nations, what in Latin is called “primus inter pares”,
    7. The Chinese have a missile force.

    I have not written about China at all in my comments here, aside from deflecting back what the fellow who calls himself “I’m Chinese!” has written and using it in my reasoning.

    I do not waste my time with such news sources as CNN for information. If I want news that doesn’t have an American or European angle to it, I tend to turn to Chinese sources.

    Finally, I rather like the idea that the Chinese told the United States to “shut up.” It’s about time someone did…

  • Dean

    Speaking about human rights and propaganda

    Can China match this?

  • Equal
  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Dean, I’m sure the chinese have a fine selection of their own hate-filled racist propaganda. I actually started to watch that silly video, but when Chomsky came on I nearly lost it and had to fast forward. I’ll give you this. I doubt the Chinese have anyone as crazy and full of unreasoning hatred of his own country as Chomsky.

    Equal’s example of Chinese disinformation isn’t nearly as good as your bit of socialist propaganda, nor as professionally produced.

    Dave

  • Dean

    Dave, I could have predicted your response to this documentary.

    You would stop watching it.

    Why?

    Because you don’t like to be confused by facts.

    Your mind is made up.

    You don’t like Chomsky because he’s a socialist.

    Fine, but his part in the documentary is only 1% of the total presentation.

    I am not surprised that you want to stay in your own little world.

    And it is little.

  • MCH

    “I think it’s nice that the shills brought their own cheerleaders. All we’ve got is troll and his droll remarks.”
    – Dave Nalle

    Keep in mind, Nalle, the Draft will be reinstituted as soon as the war with China breaks out. And this time they’ll be taking anyone 55 or younger, no exceptions…

    …So, maybe you’ll get to quit cheerleading from the sidelines and get into the game afterall…

    :-)

  • Clavos

    Give it a rest, MCH. You’re beginning to sound like a stalker.

  • Dean

    Clavos, stop stalking MCH.

  • I Eat Chinese

    MCH makes fun of the handicapped so how seriously can we take him.

    As for a draft if we fought the Chinese, it seems pointless since even if we drafted everyone who could possibly fight we could never match their numbers. Better to rely on superior technology and firepower.

  • I Eat Chinese

    As for all our visitors from China. I’d love to hear how they feel about the persecution of the falun gong.

  • Clavos

    You’re right, Dean. It’s a waste of time.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    Yay! Dean actually posted something informative. Ive watched the first 15 min of this video, who is this chomsky guy and where does he appear in the video. And what does this video have to do with socialism Dave?

  • I’m Chinese!

    Dave Nalle
    I challenge you in your native language. Let’s argue anything, but do us a favor, stop your
    RedChina crap. Say something that has a merit or thinking in it. That stupid stuff fits in the 1980s. I guess you just climbed from your bunker. Welcome back to the surface.hahaha

  • I’m Chinese!

    Ruvy in Jerusalem

    you need to see a shrink. You have psych problems and in dealing with the reality. I guess it’s because you live in holocaust and Isreal where you guys don’t know if today is your last day when you walk out. people living in that constant terror are sick. You may come to China and see how safe and happy we are,and see me sitting in front my computers seeing my stocks climbing and talking to you guys. I love my china and I love my life. Perhaps you don’t like yours so you constantly talk about MAD, a stupid stuff American Elites invented to keep themselves employed.

  • Clavos

    Why do you object to “Red China”?

    It is the People’s Republic of China, right?

    And it is a communist government, correct?

    Or are you in Taiwan?

  • I’m Chinese!

    to Dave #403
    1 To NonAmericans, FBI, CIA, FDA, all these 3-lettter institutions are the same, we refer to Government things. Who cares if FBI did it or ATI did it?
    2.you read the Falungong thing from CNN or other mainstrean media, which is inventive and with all your movie technologies, they can put anythging on the screen. I am surprised in a day over 3 million Americans travel to China every year, you are still hide in your 1980s thinking. You must be those so-called elites who drafted all these policies that brought America down! Thanks for that,really.
    3. I’m a stock trader, buying stocks for my clients and my self. I wrote my trading software so I have a lot time doing this during trading time. computers do my work.
    4.I’m sure you worked for US government. Your thinking pattern is very cold-war. I guess you’re in your 50’s. And you are living by yourself, white, grey-eyes,1.75-1.8m tall,75-80 kilo, have 1-2 dogs, no cats, few friends, rare going to church, republican. This is the profile I draw about you

  • I’m Chinese!

    Clavos

    Red China is Ok with me. But you Americans use it with biased ideology. Why don’t you White call an african american “nigger” when they can call themselves that?

  • Dean

    IC — we have 535 members of Congress and 35,000 lobbyists who tell them what laws to pass.

    Every 4 years we chose a president from two people called Tweedle Dee and Treedle Dumb.

    How do things work in China?

  • Clavos

    Why don’t you White call an african american “nigger” when they can call themselves that?

    That’s a good question, IC. But you’ll have to ask an African American why they don’t mind calling each other that, because it is a pejorative term. I don’t know.

  • Clavos

    Every 4 years we chose a president from two people called Tweedle Dee and Treedle Dumb.

    So run a socialist. Let’s see how s/he does.

  • Dean

    Can I nominate Noam Chomsky without Dave’s permission?

  • Clavos

    I’m a stock trader, buying stocks for my clients and my self.

    I’m an investor, IC. Got a hot tip?

  • Clavos

    Sure. But can you do it without Noam’s permission?

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    PETI: who is this chomsky guy and where does he appear in the video. And what does this video have to do with socialism

    Chomsky is a linquistics professor who is also a very outspoken radical socialist and known for his virulently anti-American rhetoric. I rarely use the term anti-American because I think America is designed to be tolerant of dissent, but Chomsky just plain out hates the US and hates the basic liberties the country is built on. He’s a very popular fellow over at Democratic Underground.

    IC: RedChina crap. Say something that has a merit or thinking in it.

    Could you point to a post where I used the term ‘Red China’, because I sure don’t recall ever using it.

    Dave

  • I’m Chinese!

    To Dean #428

    We have the ruling party, the Communist Party and 7 subisidiary parties we call “cooperating parties”. Every major public policy is first drafted in the CommunistParty(CP), then consult with the 7 parties for their advice, usually some of the feedbacks are put into the final work.
    This is at the central level(you call federal).
    this is the party line. We have the government line. We have executive branch. We have the People’s representative convention(the senate) and the Political consulting conference(the house). These two congress (the full number is over 4000 for each congress,from all over the country and works of live. Even cleaning ladies have their reperesentatives)hold meeting every year in March for 15 days and elect the standing committees of about 200 for each. And they have sub-committes like yours. the 4000+4000 national representatives are elected from province level, because we have the same micro-structure to the county level.

    to be a representative, you must be nominated by the com-party. there are strict portions for minority group, women,non com-party members.Of course, com-party members are majority in the congress.

    As more and more Chinese businessmen are rich, they more and more active in political life. recent statistics shows 6 of the top 100 richest men in China are in the senate.
    6。7%of those with more than 100 million yuan(14 million $us) are in the 4000 senate.
    28% ComParty members are firm bosses.
    zhinong.cn

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    1 To NonAmericans, FBI, CIA, FDA, all these 3-lettter institutions are the same, we refer to Government things. Who cares if FBI did it or ATI did it?

    ATI is a company that makes video cards. My stock in ATI has done quite well.

    2.you read the Falungong thing from CNN or other mainstrean media, which is inventive and with all your movie technologies, they can put anythging on the screen.

    I don’t watch TV news. I got the info on the Falungong from Human Rights Watch – I cited them in an earlier comment.

    And now for IC’s brilliant profile of me:

    I’m sure you worked for US government.

    Never.

    Your thinking pattern is very cold-war. I guess you’re in your 50’s.

    Again wrong.

    And you are living by yourself,

    Not if you count the wife and kids

    white,

    Ok,, you got one right.

    grey-eyes,

    Green.

    1.75-1.8m tall,75-80 kilo,

    I don’t use the metric system.

    have 1-2 dogs, no cats,

    Actually, 1 dog and 3 cats at the moment.

    few friends,

    Sometimes my wife thinks I have too many friends.

    rare going to church,

    Vanishingly rare since I’m an atheist.

    republican.

    Two right. Your percentage isn’t terribly good.

    This is the profile I draw about you

    Wait, let me profile you. You’re a small wooden toy and you live in a cardboard box. Am I right?

    Dave

  • American Lover

    Clavos, please read #142 again.

  • I’m Chinese!

    To Dave

    If I say all your checking on my profile on you are lies, what do you think? It is the same you pathetically repeatedly say China is “suppresive” using these lies you quote.

  • I’m Chinese!

    Calvos

    I trade Chinese stocks, not American stocks. Maybe when I start my own hedge fund, I will do that. real estate stocks are hot in China. Last week I earned 27% for my clients and myself! China has a 10% band for stock price fluctuation!

  • I’m Chinese!

    Wait, let me profile you. You’re a small wooden toy and you live in a cardboard box. Am I right?

    hehe, I guess you are just an American-government-is-all-right braindead ousted cold war fighter. Or you are just a pumpkin never traveled outside of your town.

  • Clavos

    IC,

    Are there Chinese ADRs sold in the US?

  • Handsome Chinese

    Dave Nalle, you have finally responded actively to the Chinese ‘shills’. That’s why this thread may become a record-breaking one soon.

    This thread has remained the hottest for quite a long time. Go to the ‘Politics’ cover page, and you will know it.

    It is really enjoyable to follow this thread. Exciting.

  • I’m Chinese!

    to Dean

    for every 5 years we change officials, qualified can do another term, but 10 years is the upper limit. either you retire or promoted. the President then retire.

  • Clavos

    That’s why this thread may become a record-breaking one soon.

    Do you get a bonus for that?

  • Elegant Chinese

    Mr Sha, you are right. We have been to the U.S. and many European countries, but they have never been to China and Southeast Asia (I suppose).

    Don’t get upset over comments given by ‘frogs living under coconut shells’. To them, the world is that ‘big’.

  • I’m Chinese!

    Clavos

    a lot. I personly like China Mobile, the clargets cellphone operator in the world! PetroChina and China Marine Petro(you have to check the right name for the listed stocks ’cause I don’t know)are also very hot! Internet stocks like Netease, Sohu, Sina are also good but I don’t like them. I like giant firms you have to deal with everyday, kind like Buffet.hehe

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    Dean:

    How do things work in China?

    Still asking the opinion of a guy who thinks SARS was a U.S. terrorist attack, wishes 200,000 more Americans would die in Iraq?

    You, Im Chinese, and I share one thing in common. We all hate President Bush. That’s it. IC is a chinese imperialist, are you Dean?

  • Clavos

    IC,

    Thanks. Agree with you about internet stocks. Too volatile.

  • Dean

    IC — Do you have lobbyists like Jack Abramoff?

  • Clavos

    Don’t get upset over comments given by ‘frogs living under coconut shells’. To them, the world is that ‘big’.

    Ribbet.

  • I’m Chinese!

    Dave

    you’re a lier. I sent your posts to a veteran police profiler. He drew the profile, not me. He also says you are violent in life ,habitual lier,and prone to be series killer. Watch out for you!

  • Clavos

    Mr. Sha 405:

    You say:

    Why don’t just come to China, talk to people on the streets, as see if they are all government agents.

    I’d love to, if the PRC government will pay for it.

    Contact me offline. I’m sure by now you know not only my IP#, but my address and telephone # as well.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    If this is propaganda, we got no worries guys. The Germans were way better at at. These guys are amateurs. I mean seriously, anyone with half a pea for a brain would be laughing their head off at the stupidity of some of these posts.

  • Clavos

    We are, PETI, we are.

    And so are all the Special Agents.

  • I’m Chinese!

    I’m sure clavos and Dave are US government agents. They are paid to stay online this late in night. Average Americans all go to sleep now.And They keep verbally defending US government!
    How much are you guys paid overtime?

  • I’m Chinese!

    It’s the first time in my life I was called an imperialist. I like that name, it means strength. you know what I have learnt from you Americans? That is we Chinese are too soft on other nations. We always want to talk. Too pussy! I hope China to be more tough and rough, shoot first then talk.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    Being a surveillance agent must be so good for the ego. Im jealous. I mean just imagine, all the fancy electronics, and getting to laugh at everyone elses stupidity!

  • Clavos

    IC,

    BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

    I wish!

    Government jobs are the best jobs in America: Good pay, you don’t have to do any work (you just have to pretend), they can’t fire you, they have a great retirement plan, and good medical.

    No, I’m self employed–I sell expensive toys to rich people–and I’m an imsoniac.

  • I’m Chinese!

    in 1405, In Ming dynasty, we Chinese built ships that were about 120m long,40m wide,carrying over 1000 tons, 10 times lager than Columbia steered. The fleet was 100 more this ships with gun powder driven cannons!We then sailed to Africa and some said even to Carribean!What a pity my ancestors were so cilized! With this power, we would have ruled the world for 600 years had my ancestors thought like you Americans today.

  • Clavos

    I hope China to be more tough and rough, shoot first then talk.

    That’s the only way you’ll get to dominate the world. IC.

  • I’m Chinese!

    nations fate is like stock price, there are ups and downs. But the fundamentals decided all. China is a very good blue-chip giant. I’m long on it. America is like an Internet stock, who knows when it collapses.

  • Dean

    Contrary to all you rednecks, I find IC entertaining.

  • Clavos

    IC #459:

    See, that’s your problem. You Chinese have a long, proud history, but you screwed up when you let those stupid communists take over your country–in less than a hundred years, they have nearly destroyed one of the greatest nations the world has ever known. They did the same thing to Russia.

    If you want to be great again, you’ve got to take all the commies out to the garden and shoot them in the back of the head. Hhhmmm…where have I heard that before?

  • Clavos

    Waaal shoot, Dean I reckoned you done fell off’n yer flat world!

  • I’m Chinese!

    Clavos!
    I really advize you to expand your business in china. you really don’t know how many rich people in China. your fancy toys must have huge market here and Chinese rich people spend money like it is paper!!!

  • I’m Chinese!

    Clavos

    you’re wrong. these comm’sts are first Chinese. They just needed something to tie the desperate Chinese together and borrowed help from the Soviets! After that, hehe,we are just Chinese, no more and no less!

    Soon we will account for 1/3 all major industrial output and consumption in the world! I really think RMB is very much undervalued. The right ratio to US$ should be 4:1 to 5:1.

    How much do you pay for a lunch in Mac with a cheese burg,a coke, and some fried patato? I spend 16 yuan,that’s 2 us$ by nomial rate

  • Clavos

    IC,

    Chinese rich people spend money like it is paper!!!

    Heh, that was funny! Really. And it’s hard to make a good joke in someone else’s language. I know–I speak four, and humor is always the hardest part.

    But seriously, some of my expensive toys (yachts) are already being built in China. After years of building them in Taiwan, in recent years the industry has shifted a lot of manufacturing to your country.

  • I’m Chinese!

    good for you!
    It’s greate to do business! The intrinsic flaw in my culture is dispise of commerce. We thought being a poet and serving the emperor was the best thing. Businessmen and soldiers were treated with contempt. The last 200 years taught us a very good lesson with so many lives. Now we love business and power more than never. Business is No.1.

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    If I say all your checking on my profile on you are lies, what do you think? It is the same you pathetically repeatedly say China is “suppresive” using these lies you quote.

    Except that my ‘lies’ come from international organizations that monitor human rights abuses. Take it up with them.

    I guess you are just an American-government-is-all-right braindead ousted cold war fighter. Or you are just a pumpkin never traveled outside of your town.

    I’ll bet money that I’ve travelled to more countries than you have. Most Chinese haven’t even travelled much in China. Of course those with special government connections do get more opportunities for travel. I’ll admit to not having been to China. I guess the closest I’ve been is Tajikistan, India or Kazakstan. They all border China.

    I sent your posts to a veteran police profiler. He drew the profile, not me. He also says you are violent in life ,habitual lier,and prone to be series killer. Watch out for you!

    And he could tell all this from my posts? Amazing. He wasn’t by any chance being played by Jackie Chan in a movie or something? And wait, isn’t that the profile the Chinese have of ALL Americans?

    Dave

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    nations fate is like stock price, there are ups and downs.

    I think I saw that in a fortune cookie.

    Dave

  • I’m Chinese!

    Dave
    What a superman! If you are one man, you slept just 5 hours. You say you have wife and kids. No normal man do that.hehe, It proves you US agents share the same ID and IP. No Americans defend US government like you do unless you are employed by it.

  • I’m Chinese!

    “I’ll bet money that I’ve travelled to more countries than you have. Most Chinese haven’t even travelled much in China. Of course those with special government connections do get more opportunities for travel. I’ll admit to not having been to China. I guess the closest I’ve been is Tajikistan, India or Kazakstan. They all border China.”

    China has the largest civil aviation fleet only next to US. There are more people travel by air within China than US does. As to travel by train, no other country can compare. I have been to US twice. I saw US with my eyes. You have never been to China, what can you say? You just repeat what other says!

    You went to Tajikistan, India or Kazakstan? hehe, no civil American people go there, unless they are connected to military or intelligence organizations.

  • I’m Chinese!

    In Tajikistan, India or Kazakstan, there are largest surveillence installation facilities of US since the collapse of Soviet Union. recently, US increaseed its military presence there.Hehe,Dave ,when words rushed out of you mouth, you should check it. What you said revealed your true identity

  • I’m Chinese!

    By the way, CIA secretely transported kidnapped terrorist suspects to these countries to torture them for information. No wonder you are very excited by the word “torture” and you know a lot of Chinese ancient torture methods. I bet money you work for CIA and must be a torture techinician! My cop profiler is RIGHT! you are very violent and dangerous! Tell us how many men you have tortured there?

  • I’m Chinese!

    the sentence you used to describe me
    “Wait, let me profile you. You’re a small wooden toy and you live in a cardboard box. Am I right?”

    revealed your strong impulse to contain and manipulate people. Only very sick man will use this mataphor. You sick CIA torturer!

  • Handsome Chinese

    Dave and Clavos, come and spend thousands of dollars in China. Things are cheap. Food is exquisite, and the scenery is breathtaking.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    To “I’m Chinese!” at #424.

    I don’t need a shrink – just the money to pay for one. A pointer in survival for you. Once you have been at death’s door, or close, every day is your last day. That way it does not get wasted.

    Corresponding with you has been more fun than corresponding with a barrel of monkeys. And just as productive.

    Just a few thoughts before I leave you:

    When I was a child, my father warned me about China and the threat that it posed to the world. I see that he was right – not from American propaganda, which is colored by fear and ignorance, but from what I read right here on Blog Critics from you and your compatriots.

    Before you write any further on a topic you know nothing about, like Jewish history or Israel, come and visit for a week or two. Before you open your mouth, learn.

    I have not pretended to write about China – and I claim little knowledge about it save what I described in comment #411. I have reflected back what you have written in your own comments.

    It’s a picture of a country that is ready to take on the world and reclaim what it once had centuries ago. Chinese girls may be pretty – the landscape of the mountains and hills may be pretty – but the picture you paint is not. It is a picture of war just over the horizon…

  • I’m Chinese!

    Ruvy

    I’m leaving for dinner after doing my after-trad data processing. I feel sorry for you. Also I might take it back on me since you said something bad,like”Corresponding with you has been more fun than corresponding with a barrel of monkeys. And just as productive.”, but considering you are in warzone and probably a Hezbollah bomb will blow you into pieces and I might be the last one you wrote to, I just smiled at your dirty words and pray to your God you can come back to say more safely. People get spooky like you in that terror.
    I don’t need to get upset for your dirty words.
    Your old man warned you of China? hehe, he might be one of the naked Jew boys fleeing the third Reich in 1930s and received chinese help to safely arrive in Shanghai. You know why so many people hate you Jews in these 2000 years and now? There must be plausibel reasons.As to your old man,he never knew to thank people who helped him. You just turn back on them when you are fed. I don’t hate Jews and I don’t like you. Indifferent to me is your fate.

  • I’m Chinese

    Why Dave must be an CIA field operative!
    1.He is very fluent in ideology jargons. He is also aware that China used to restrict people moving from one place to another. BUT! These information is all about China before 1990! The Marxist\Leninist jargons were rarely seen since 1990, when Chinese socialism is the official term! And since late 1980s, restriction on migration was lifted because the industrialization! Now there are over 100 million farmers moving to cities for work and return home for holidays! That means Dave received his training on China BEFORE 1990!
    2. Dave seems a smart guy. He is good at national security policies common Americans are not interested in. Why did he not read more about China? He travelled to remote countries common Americans do not even know of their existence but he never went into China!He is also familiar with very scary and obscure subject about the detail of ancient Chinese torturing people?Why?
    the only plausible explaination is: he joined CIA before 1990, where he received fully trainning about cold war ideology. This is how he had the stubborn image about China. Then he was sent to field work. In intellegience world, you do not ask things oustside your work. His major is not in China, so his knowledge about China is not updated well. His interest in ancient Chinese torture techniques is from the need of his work,probably interrogation. This also explain his trips to Tajikistan, India or Kazakstan, where Muslims are know to be tortured by governments. CIA put the kidnapped Muslim susbects there and let these governments do the bloody work and Dave is there doing instructions!This is also why he travels a lot and has the financial strength to go to China but never: active field operative can not go into an enemy state by any chance if not not assigned to!
    So fellows, I just busted one of US government operative active in propaganda.

  • Clavos

    Damn, IC, that’s scary!

    All you missed was that Dave isn’t the CIA agent, I am!

    Xin Loi!

  • Clavos

    Ruvy,

    When I was a child, my father warned me about China and the threat that it posed to the world.

    My Dad always told me the same thing, way back when I was a kid. And I’ve never forgotten it because he was right about so many of the things he talked about.

    Interesting…

    I’ve also had my eyes opened more by this whole thread. The level of vitiriol I’ve seen come and go here is impressive.

  • I’m Chinese

    Why the American Democracy is dying!

    Look at the American history, WWII is the splitting mark. Before that, an idealism true democracy where officials, congressmen and judges worked hard to keep giant corporations at bay and military had little influence in domestic policies. The WWII revived the once tamed giant firms and the need of war produced very strong bond between the industry and the military. At the end of the war, the industry-military decided not to surrender the new power they gained but to strengthen it! How? Wars! War is the largest and most lucrative business mankind can think of. You just demand and spend! Wars are good for military to ask for more budget and increase personal fame. Wars are good for firms to increase profit. By late 1950s, Eisenhower already warned the American public of this evil complex. All the so-called strategists work for this complex. Look at the fund of their research! This is the reason why America follows the policies designed by the brightest people in US and quickly loses its hegemony. These policies are designed to push forward the interest of this complex instead of the country!
    The Korean war is the first test of the complex! Although defeated, but the defense budget was increased dramatically! And the firms see a lot profits! After that, they choose Vietnam for more. J.F. Kennedy was the last great AMERICAN president. He was so old-fashioned AMERICAN, loving and caring. The Civil Rights Bill is the greatest law in America! But defying the warning and threat from the complex, he insisted on cutting defense budget for financing his Great Society dream. His first move to pull out of Vietnam starts the count-down of his death. The assassin of JFK sets an example to anyone who dares to stand in its way! Johnson received the message and gives a blank check to them.
    When people’s will confronts with the interest of the complex, does Democracy really prevail? Ask the blood before the Pentagon! For over 5 years, America pleading for pull out and the government and Congress do not hear! The complex knows it has taken control of the nation indeed! The final pull out is a tactic maneuver, to cover the fact of the power has shifted from the people to the complex and to show the unwary public that democracy still woks! And sure loss of the war is also the reason. But id does not matter America wins the war or not. The complex scores!
    The sudden collapse of Soviet Union is not expected. The last one wishing to see that is the complex! Without this handy threat, it got to find new ways to squeeze money from the taxpayers! Bush the senior was punished and humiliated by the Complex in 1992. He lost the re-election!
    Clinton is very smart. Like his model, JFK, he underestimates the will and the power of the Complex. Not only he allows homosexuals in the army, he also cuts a lot budget! He is just lucky enough to be only stripped off his underwear and scrutinized in public. He is quick in making up for the mistakes by increasing defense budget.
    The Complex decides that they need to go into wars without anyone asking why and how. To do that, you need a phantom enemy, who is everywhere and never goes away! The 911 event is a staged tragedy. All Jews working in the two towers fail to show up that morning. Bush quickly send out troops to mid-Asia in an unreasonably and un-Bush fashion. The increase in extra budget in defense and homeland security is unprecedented and makes those chosen few very happy.
    As I said before, the invasion of Iraq is expensive and stupid to America. But it is very smart for firms like Chenney’s. Why Kerry did not push the topic in 2004? JFK’s lesson is well understood! Those bodyguards and secret service agents may be connected to the complex and it is easy to make a traffic accident to kill Kerry and his family all. Remember what happened to Princess Diana?
    This rough sketch may not be precise, but you can get the idea. When American people come to face to face with the complex, you are destined to lose even if it looks you win. The power is lost.
    The complex knows the tricks. The best way to rule is to keep people working for just enough to survive. If people have to much time to think about the politics, they will get organized and hard to deal with. This is why the real living standard of average American barely improved compared to 1950s. The productivity increases, the extra is wasted on wars and by the complex.
    The Patriot Act is just the first step to a police state! The Homeland Security will be your Gestapo! America is transforming, just like Czar’s Rome, from Republic to Empire! Czar was not assassinated, he committed suicide. He knows his reputation of tolerance is his best weapon and best legacy to his successor. People of Rome will love him and his successor and mad at his opponents. Czar uses his Romans to kill his opponents who he wishes to kill by his own hand but had to hug them in public. This way his successor will come to the throne with clean hand. The complex is waiting for those opponents to fully expose them. And it will choose a Czar to kill to set up fire in American hearts and let the Americans to kill these and finish the transformation to Empire. The 911 is a Czar. There must be more to achieve the final goal. The recent foiled 811(British air bomb) attack comes when Bush needs it most. It is another staged plot to achieve broader political goals:
    If it successfully exploded, Iran would be the immediate target. The Europeans who keep distance with US would be dragged into the campaign and share most of the cost and put America again at the leader position. The Europe is growing fast in recent months and dollar is weakening against Euro. The bomb would scare capital out of Europe and lead it to US. So Europe would be weakened.
    This is just what US did back in 1998 in Yugoslavia.
    Had American people known of these, would they support these? Either way, is it direct signs that the once great American Democracy is dying?

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Hey, I have to admit IC has a good argument. I must be a CIA agent. There’s even more evidence. For 6 years I drove through Langley Virginia every day. Plus I’ve been to 31 other countries besides the three I already mentioned, many of which also have secret CIA bases in them, I’m sure. And because of my kids I only get 3 hours sleep a night – or is tha because of my guilty conscience for all the innocents I’ve ‘sanctioned’ like a Robert Ludlum character? And my house here in rural Texas is secretly a CIA safehouse, of course.

    It’s all so clear when you live in a paranoid fantasy world like IC, or get your idea of who Americans are and how they live from a Red Army propaganda booklet.

    The truth. My parents were in the foreign service so I grew up overseas and visited the various countries as a child – since then I’ve mostly just visited European nations on my own. When not overseas I lived in Washington DC and went to school in McLean which is right next to Langley. That background makes me more aware of foreign policy issues than a lot of Americans, plus I’m politically active – something that tends to get you killed or disappeared in China.

    But the fantasy IS more fun than the reality, so I’m going to put on a trenchcoat and go out and interrogate one of our goats.

    Dave

  • I’m Chinese

    Dave

    “But the fantasy IS more fun than the reality,”
    I have been in US and got a lot freinds and family connections there. I know of American life. But you, you are just living in your cold war brainwashed fantasy wrold about China

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    But the fantasy IS more fun than the reality, so I’m going to put on a trenchcoat and go out and interrogate one of our goats.

    [Dave is in his yard, sweating in his trenchcoat sits in fron to his goat (who is really an Israeli spy related to Jonathan Pollard) and starts asking for the secret codes of the Israeli avionics systems.

    The goat looks at him stupidly like one would expect a goat to look.

    Dave gets annoyed;

    “WE have ways of making you go BEHHH!!!”

    The goat gets annoyed and says, “You have a rusty bezoar. And if you don’t leave me alone, I’ll kick it right out of you! Now get the fuck back to your computer and write something intelligent for a change…”

    The goat starts lifting one of his forelegs. Dave turns around quickly pulls off his trench coat and goes back into the house looking for an appropriate instrument of torture. There is never a dull moment at the Nalle compound…]

  • Nancy

    I am very impressed by the English abilities of all the chinese writers on this thread. They are absolutely correct in one aspect, and that is that lingusitically they have us English-only speakers beat around the block. I certainly couldn’t do the same in Chinese, being limited to ‘please’, ‘thank you’ and similar short phrases, even tho I’ve tried to study the language.

    That said, I do think I’m Chinese gets a bit out of hand. I hope it’s just the heat of the moment, as PETI says, and I suspect it’s so, as he seems to calm down somewhat, but really: the US spreading SARS as germ warfare? If the US were going to spread a disease, they’d pick one that’s more efficient than SARS has shown itself to be, that’s for sure. It’s stuff like that that undermines IC’s credibility.

    Fer sher the Chinese culture is ancient & great. The art is exquisite, the literature is wonderful, some of the scenery is tremendous, the food is indeed the primus inter pares of great cuisines, and in terms of paleontolgical & archeological treasures, they are unbeatable, IMO. Unfortunately, most Chinese seem to be imbued with a suspicion (which seems to be a cultural constant, judging from all the historical records, etc. I’ve read) of non-Han that just about ruins any intent or attempts to co-exist with the rest of the world, however, given the history of Western-Chinese relations, I can understand whence it comes. Western behavior in dealing with past chinese governments has been a pretty sorry one from the inception. I can also understand being suspicious of the US government; I don’t trust W. Bush or his administration myself. However, to ascribe nefarious intent to all non-Han, as IC has done repeatedly in his comments, is neurotic to the point of psychosis. I’d be just as justified in saying that all Chinese plan to take over the world, which is equally silly.

    Whatever, this has been an interesting thread. I was very glad & interested (when ranting wasn’t going on) to read what Chinese thought. It seems so seldom we do hear from others outside the US or Europe (apologies to Ruvy). I’m glad BC seems to be attracting an even larger audience & participants.

    And now, I’m going to go have Chinese for lunch. Just thinking about it has made me ravenous, and there’s nothing I enjoy more. It might not be as authentic or as good as what IC has access to, but it’ll have to do. Ah…yellow birds & Ma Po beancurd….

  • I’m Chinese

    Nacny

    Thanks for your banlanced comment. This is what a real educated American do.

  • Clavos

    IC #482,

    There are LOTS of errors in your analysis, but one of the most glaring ones to me is the comment that JFK wanted to pull out of Vietnam.

    In fact, he GREW US presence in ‘nam until his assassination (by a rifleman with strong connections to two communist countries,BTW)

    Choi oi!

  • I’m Chinese

    “That said, I do think I’m Chinese gets a bit out of hand. I hope it’s just the heat of the moment, as PETI says, and I suspect it’s so, as he seems to calm down somewhat, but really: the US spreading SARS as germ warfare? If the US were going to spread a disease, they’d pick one that’s more efficient than SARS has shown itself to be, that’s for sure. It’s stuff like that that undermines IC’s credibility.”

    SARS is good for a weapon, Reasons:
    1. easy to spread at Chinese New year when billions are going home in crowded trains and airplanes.
    2. expensive to cure but not uncurable, fit for the strategy of weakening instead of wiping out Chinese. The damage is calculated and controlled,.
    3. US can blame the animals Chinese are fond of as food, because the virus of less lethal power can be found there.

  • I’m Chinese

    Clavos
    See for yourself! JFK WAS determinded to withdraw for VietNam before death!

  • Nancy

    Well, you’re entirely welcome, but I do wish you’d tone it down a bit. As I said, I don’t put it past the current administration to think about something like that, but I really doubt they’d actually do it, and certainly not with SARS. There are more effective agents if they wanted to play that way. No, I wouldn’t deny the US government has perpetrated a lot of dirty business, in the past & present; I’d be a liar and a fool if I did. But currently the US government and administration is the worst enemy of its own people, and working against them, rather more than they are anybody else. If anybody outside the US did want to destroy us, I couldn’t imagine a more effective way than to have put Junior & Cheney into power & turned them loose.

    Anyway, I’m a longtime student of Chinese culture, history, art – AND cooking. You’re right: there’s no comparison between real chinese food & most of the restaurant stuff. My college roomie was Chinese-American, but her parents & grandma who lived with them were all Chinese born. We’d come home from college on the bus every weekend, and grandma had been cooking herself to death, real stuff not chop suey, and I’d just be in heaven. She taught me a lot of it (not my roomie, tho, who hated both cooking & chinese food!). I got as far with written chinese as being able to identify most radicals, know about 100 characters, but that’s about all. Spoken, very poor. So I do salute those who are able to be so conversant in another language, especially one as difficult as English, which is a bugger for those not born into it.

  • I’m Chinese

    Clavos
    It is your history I wrote about. Please point out the errors you find and argue with me. By the way, don’t you think when you comment on China, do we feel the same that you do not even have the basics about China. And you DON’T read in Chinese and have never come to China!

  • Nancy

    Anyway, to get back to the original theme of this thread, my question is, why does the US think that it should be privy to anyone else’s budgets, let alone their military spending, and why should they have a say in it? They certainly don’t & wouldn’t allow anyone else to say anything about theirs. I would frankly be astonished at any nation that DID give the US that sort of information. I think the people in this administration are out of touch with reality, I really do.

  • I’m Chinese

    Nancy
    “If anybody outside the US did want to destroy us, I couldn’t imagine a more effective way than to have put Junior & Cheney into power & turned them loose.”
    I wrote some about the trend of US democracy as an outsider. I found some similarity with yours.

  • Nancy

    IMO – but this will be very disputed by others on this website – US democracy no longer exists. The people have very little say in who is elected, as I believe the past two elections prove. Instead, the electorate is rigged by the administration, and conditioned by advertising & the media, so that in effect it’s the party with the most money that buys its way into office. An oligarchic plutocracy, if you follow me. Part of the fault lies with those at the top who have corrupted the process, but a good deal also lies with the voters, the rank & file Americans, who are stupid enough (and who have frankly been conditioned since childhood via various media such as TV etc.) to respond only to extremely short soundbites, and are unable to think critically enough to make their own determination or judge the truth. Not to mention the preponderance of those qualified to vote who don’t bother. I wish I had my way, I’d strip anyone who missed more than 2 national elections without just cause of their voting rights, until they took remedial classes in civics (study of government, history, and the duties of a good citizen) and passed with a high enough score to have made them sweat for it. But this is just my opinion, and I’m sure others on this thread will jump in to clobber me shortly.

  • I’m Chinese

    “Unfortunately, most Chinese seem to be imbued with a suspicion (which seems to be a cultural constant, judging from all the historical records, etc. I’ve read) of non-Han that just about ruins any intent or attempts to co-exist with the rest of the world, ”

    Chinese culture is the most tolerant one. There has never been a war about religion in Chinese history. Religious suppression like you see in mideval Europe is never known in China.

  • Nancy

    What I find interesting is how China is increasingly – and seemingly rapidly – moving towards a western political and economic system, while the US seems to be moving towards … some sort of authoritarian government. The current administration certainly regards the people not as those it serves, but as fodder for their plans. But if I were you, I’d be wary of American culture. Oh, yeah, there is an American culture. Some of it is admirable: the good old-fashioned work ethic, which makes Americans about the hardest-working, most productive in the world (we certainly take the least vacation time), but then there’s the hollywood/TV culture, which caters to the lowest possible levels of taste, education, and behavior, unfortunately exemplified by most of our so-called celebrities who constantly set new (low) standards in vulgarity, stupidity, ignorance, and self-indulgence.

  • I’m Chinese

    Nancy
    The best way of learning Chinese is to recite Chinese poems. Those poems not only beautiful in meaning, also in writing. Chinese writing is by itself an art! No other language can align the words so strictly identical and read so smoothly. Oh my love China. I can die thousands time for you!

  • Nancy

    What I find interesting is how China is increasingly – and seemingly rapidly – moving towards a western political and economic system, while the US seems to be moving towards … some sort of authoritarian government. The current administration certainly regards the people not as those it serves, but as fodder for their plans. But if I were you, I’d be wary of American culture. Oh, yeah, there is an American culture. Some of it is admirable: the good old-fashioned work ethic, which makes Americans about the hardest-working, most productive in the world (we certainly take the least vacation time), but then there’s the hollywood/TV culture, which caters to the lowest possible levels of taste, education, and behavior, unfortunately exemplified by most of our so-called celebrities who constantly set new (low) standards in vulgarity, stupidity, ignorance, and self-indulgence.

    Then, of course, we have our admirable politicians, who are diligent & able students of political corruption, graft, and lying; I suspect chinese politicos have nothing on our US pols when it comes to that, altho I do think our bureaucracy (i.e. career government workers) is for the most part above reproach, and that IS something worth boasting about. Non-elected officials in the US are pretty honest & hard working, far more than in other countries, I think, and I’ve worked in US and state government jobs for years. It’s only the electeds – the politicians – who stink, here.

  • I’m Chinese

    Nancy
    “What I find interesting is how China is increasingly – and seemingly rapidly – moving towards a western political and economic system, while the US seems to be moving towards … some sort of authoritarian government.”
    I can’t agree more! This is why I think America is no longer a democatic country. The most lovable America is from 1918-1945.

  • Nancy

    The poems are incredibly lovely, but chinese is hard to interpret. I do know one poem, but it can be said – phrased – in so many different ways, it’s difficult to know which version is correct. Here’s one version, maybe you recognize it:

    Spreading as far as the eye can see, bamboo; the fragrance makes me drunk.

    Mind you, that’s just the version I know. Without access to chinese characters, I couldn’t give you the official correct version, of course. Yeah, chinese poetry is great stuff. Very evocative, if less rhythmic than, say, Robert Frost. If you like to try western poets, try him; you’d probably enjoy him. He describes nature & his reactions to it very much the same as the chinese poets do.

    I also like the few chinese novels I’ve read, altho not many are translated into English. I’ve read All Men Are Brothers, and Dream of the Red Chamber, stuff like that. Again, it’s hard to translate, because a lot of times, I understand, there are no equivilents, altho not as hard as Japanese.

    I love America just as passionately, which is why I rant so against those that destroy it, especially those at the top who should be foremost in saving it instead of ravaging it for their own selfish benefits. China & the US are a lot alike in that respect: nations of good people, saddled with corrupt & evil governments.

  • Clavos

    IC #490,

    The website you cite re JFK is a sit advocating that JFK was killed by conspirators. These theories are not convincing to me or to many Americans. The information put forth there is not proved and is not authoritative.

    BTW, how many shifts per day of agents are posting under the handle IC? I note that your posts have been continuous since late last night (US time).

    #492 (which IC wrote this one?): The ONLY things I have said about China’s history and culture have been complimentary.

  • Clavos

    IC, The RECORD shows that JFK INCREASED troop strength in Vietnam during his time in office. (Verifiable, factual info, not speculation on the part of conspiracy theorists).

  • Clavos

    And you DON’T read in Chinese and have never come to China!

    You don’t know that for sure, do you? I haven’t said one way or the other.

  • I’m Chinese

    “The website you cite re JFK is a sit advocating that JFK was killed by conspirators. These theories are not convincing to me or to many Americans. The information put forth there is not proved and is not authoritative.”

    I thought Americans do not need governments to tell them what to believe! Bush is turning US to Soviet!

    “BTW, how many shifts per day of agents are posting under the handle IC? I note that your posts have been continuous since late last night (US time).

    #492 (which IC wrote this one?): The ONLY things I have said about China’s history and culture have been complimentary.”

    This site everyone can use any ID. I slept then. I guess someone wants to use this to prove I’m government agent. I’ll sleep now, tomorrow is a good to trade stocks. By for now

  • Nancy

    Why would anyone use your ID except you? Have you given it out? It doesn’t help your credibility. On this site, anyway.

  • I’m Chinese

    “The poems are incredibly lovely, but chinese is hard to interpret. I do know one poem, but it can be said – phrased – in so many different ways, it’s difficult to know which version is correct. Here’s one version, maybe you recognize it:

    Spreading as far as the eye can see, bamboo; the fragrance makes me drunk.”
    sorry I don’t know which one is it. Chinese poems must be understood by imagination. As the saying, “the meaning is beyond the words!”
    I’ll catch some sleep, by for now. It is really nice to talk to you and share our thoughts together.

  • I’m Chinese

    By the way. I love America, the old one. Even Chairman Mao loved the old America of President Roosvelt and Lincoln. What a pity America turns out be now!

  • Clavos

    Because, Nancy, as Dave said some time ago (you should read this entire thread, though it WILL take a long time) most (if not all) these chinese posters are obviously government propagandists.

  • Nancy

    Don’t let my carping give you the wrong impression: a lot of it – most of it – is still great & wonderful, as are the people. As I said, it’s those on top who are the rot. American scenery is stunning, and the grassroots cultures in the various areas of the US (including the food) are incredibly rich. People overseas make the mistake of thinking America and Americans are what they see in the movies and on TV. How wrong they are! Truly, the American people should sue Hollywood and MTV for perverting us and our images. We are NOT all a bunch of sex-crazed, materialistic, shallow connivers who run around wearing indecent overpriced designer clothes, like they show on TV. The characters on Desperate Housewives are not how the average American lives, thinks, or wants to. An increasing number of us, in fact, are so disgusted with the constant tide of trash put out by the entertainment industry we don’t even bother to have TV any more. I don’t. Gave mine up 5 years ago.

    It’s a pity we have the leaders we do; they grossly misrepresent us to the world. And given the corruption of recent elections, and the probable corruption of future ones, I don’t know there’s anything we can do about it.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Nancy writes,

    “IMO – but this will be very disputed by others on this website – US democracy no longer exists. The people have very little say in who is elected, as I believe the past two elections prove. Instead, the electorate is rigged by the administration, and conditioned by advertising & the media, so that in effect it’s the party with the most money that buys its way into office. An oligarchic plutocracy, if you follow me. Part of the fault lies with those at the top who have corrupted the process, but a good deal also lies with the voters, the rank & file Americans, who are stupid enough (and who have frankly been conditioned since childhood via various media such as TV etc.) to respond only to extremely short soundbites, and are unable to think critically enough to make their own determination or judge the truth. Not to mention the preponderance of those qualified to vote who don’t bother.”

    Nancy, there was a fellow in the ’60’s who wrote books about the dumbing down of American education by a small elite at some of the ivory league schools who believed that democracy was too good for the dumb unwashed folk. I think his name was Quigley, but I’m not sure.

    I tend to agree with a lot of what you write but much of democracy is hard to kill. On the national level, it is indeed functionally dead, but on the local level, it is still very much alive in some parts of your country.

    If you want to trace its decline, you need to go to the events shortly after WWI in the United States – inventions such as the radio allowed the creation of “mass advertising” and fads, both of which encourage “sheeple” type behavior.

    Develop national entertainment oriented networks on the radio, fuelled by and paid for the advertising agencies, and you also develop a mentality that goes along with it. You get brand loyalty and a different compartmentalization of time, among other things. But with radio, you need to imagine images in your mind – think of “Fibber Magee and Molly” or “The Shadow.”

    Now add TV (invented in 1923) to the mix. You know longer have to imagine the image – it is there in front of your face. Use ads to create expectations of time, use TV shows to create unreal expectations of reality, speed up the pace so your faces on TV use quick soundbites and you kill knowledge and understanding. “If it bleeds, it leads,” goes the TV newsman’s slogan.

    Now you know longer even have news, you have “infotainment” – the point of which is to keep your mind off of possibly overthrowing the disgusting bastards who let you lead a “mclife” in America.

    That is what American mass consumer “culture,” including this magazine, is all about. Keep the dumb cows distracted from thinking, keep them playing CD’s, chasing after new gadgets they don’t need, and watching porn and playing with their private parts, and you will not have what you should have on your hands – a revolution.

    Now, Nancy, it’ll just be the crazy deluded Jew from Israel they’ll flame, not you.

  • Clavos

    Now, Nancy, it’ll just be the crazy deluded Jew from Israel they’ll flame, not you.

    I don’t think so, Ruvy. These guys WANT us to have a revolution–they just want it to be a commie one, that’s all. And, if we don’t do it to ourselves, they’ll do it to us.

  • equal

    I can not help imagining that one day (after US and China become allies), when two countries’ intelligence agency hold a friendly meeting together, one chinese agent and one american agent shake hands and hug, and say this to each other: “ha, it is you, we profiled each other on blogcritics in August, 2006!”

  • equal

    I was joking, I really enjoy reading this thread.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    Except the U.S. doesnt have govt agents posting here. minor details…

  • Nancy

    Ruvy, you’re preaching to the choir, here, but thanks anyway. Clavos, I think we DO need revolution, altho not a communist one; we just need to get off our arses and throw out all the corruption & stink at the top, in both parties, get tough with the bastards, and MEAN it: caught taking money? Lose all benefits, ALL your assets (so the wife & kids don’t live easy on tax monies), and then it’s HARD LABOR & a re-education camp for you for years. Influence peddling? Same deal. Selling out the US for personal gain: tried for treason & executed same as the Rosenbergs.

    You’d think the Cunningham case would throw a little fear into these maggots to clean up their act, but it doesn’t seem to have done much except make them work harder to try to cover their tracks. And of course the biggest maggots at the very top are untouched.

  • Mr. Sha

    Dave 414,

    Chomsky is a giant either as a linguist or a political scientist. He dosn’t hate America. He loves it so much tht he dosn’t want to see it fall. Understand?

  • Clavos

    Mr. Sha:

    He loves it so much tht he dosn’t want to see it fall. Understand?

    But he DOES want to change US to a socialist state–which the overwhelming majority of Americans DO NOT want.

    Capiche?

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Mr. Sha,

    Noam Chomsky is neither a giant in the field of linguistics, his proper field of study, or in international politics, in which he us a mere polemicist writing angry screeds.

    While Chomsky has come up with excellent ideas and concepts in linguistics, he has no concept of academic freedom. He has done anything he can to suppress the works of those who disagree with his theories, bullying academic magazines and publishing houses all over the United States.

    As a polemicist, his ideas would of course find favor in the PRC, but essentially, long before he wrote his take on imperialism, etc., those of us who follow American culture understood the trends within it, and the governing elits within it as well. In truth, Noam Chomsky is nothing but an self exiled self-promoting Israeli loudmouth who spills hatred of his native land at every opportunity. He, unlike Robert (Yisrael) Aumann, is a stain on the honor of the Jewish people.

  • Mr. Sha

    Clavos #452:

    Well, that can be arranged if you join the Chinese communist party and further more become an agent of the Chinese government. Or at least quit being an agent of the American government. Hahaha……

  • Clavos

    Well, that’s too bad, Mr. Sha, because I have virtually no interest in communism of any nationality.

    And I can’t quit being an agent of the American government; you know how it is in the spy biz…

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    I was going to write #519, but Ruvy did it first and better.

    Dave

  • Mr. Sha

    Clavos 521:

    Well, you can pretend to join just to get a free trip to China. I just hope though that your visit won’t make you think to quit CIA. The people here are very friendly and the food is the best. Why don’t make an effort.

  • Dean

    “While Chomsky has come up with excellent ideas and concepts in linguistics, he has no concept of academic freedom. He has done anything he can to suppress the works of those who disagree with his theories, bullying academic magazines and publishing houses all over the United States.”

    Ruvy, have you watched the video that brought up the subject of Chomsky?

    Are you making an excuse to avoid what the video reports and taking Dave Nalle’s word for it?

    Watch the actual news footage with your own two eyes open and then come back and dissect it in an intelligent way.

    You can ignore Chomsky and not lose what is being reported. If you can’t, you don’t believe what your own two eyes tell you.

    Keep an open mind if you can.

  • Leslie Bohn

    Of course Chomsky is a huge figure in linguistics, probably the most important linguist of the second half of the century. His theory of universal grammar is a basic framework for much of theoretical linguistics since. He’s hugely influential.

  • Mr. Sha

    Ruvy you commented in 519:

    “As a polemicist, his ideas would of course find favor in the PRC, ”

    Stop making your ignorant and bigoted inferences. You almost know nothing about China and how can you possibly know that Chomsky’s “ideas would of course find favor in the PRC”. Except from the linguistics community in China, I haven’t heard any people talking about him.

    Your bigotry and looking at the world through colored glasses make me feel sorry for you. Chinese people were like that 30 years ago, but most of them have stoped being so and are earger and willing to learn about the world. Again, visit China and feel the place with your own eyes and brain. One thing I can assure you, most of the people on the street with a high school education would speak some English with you.

  • Clavos

    Mr. Sha,

    You accuse anyone who disagrees with you on any point of being a bigot.

    That destroys your credibility.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Mr. Sha,

    Based on the commentary I’ve seen from people who identify themselves as Chinese at this article alone, along with the commentary I read from readers from Xinhua’s English service on-line when I read articles about issues that concern China, like Taiwan, AND based on what I’ve read of Chomsky’s views, I feel comfortable making a reasonable assessment that his views on the States would find favor in the PRC. Of course, if he criticizes the PRC for stamping out Tibetan independence, I suppose folks on the PRC’s payroll might not like that…

    If Chinese folks don’t talk about the bastard’s politics, then he is not as popular as he likes to make himself out to be. But if YOU call him a giant, then either you have bought a pig in the poke or YOU have read his views and find favor with them.

    A Chinese feller I read about recently once said, “Keep quiet. It is much much better.” That is wise advice – particularly when you do not know what you are talking about…

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Dean,

    I know something of Noam Chomsky’s views. I have read his work, both in linguistics, which I studied at university, and in politics, which I also studied in university.

    But I do confess to not having seen the video. But this is not out of close-mindedness. The kids have the speakers to the computer, and have attached it to the other computer in the house so they can watch movies. It’s rare that I get to listen to anything on this machine these days…

  • I’m Chinese!

    Ruvy

    Talking about Tibet, Tibet is a province of China since the Yuan Dynasty since 1240 A.D. We Chinese are known to keep all these files intact. There are volumous records of royal ordering and government files through 800 years both in Beijing, and Tibet. hehe,long before you newly freed Jew slaves stole land from Arabs in 1946. Get out of Arab land,should I say that following your logic?
    Or get out of Indian’s America to those Americans who say Tibet is not part of China, since your forefathers just robbed it from Indians in 1800s?

  • I’m Chinese!

    Dave and Clavos dare not say anything about the military-industry complex, fearing losing their jobs and being killed by assasins with silenced pistols while asleep or being blown to pieces in their cars.
    Ruvy, to you little Jew head where the brain is no larger than a peanut, you live in a polic state and constant death shadow, you don’t know anything free,so you think we Chinese live like you, police taking care of everything. you poor little Jew. Shanghai and other Chinese cities are still open for Jews if iseral is wiped out by Arabs.I personly would go to airport to pick you up, for sure, brother.It’s not the first time your hated Chinese save your Jewish ass.

  • I’m Chinese!

    Dave and Clavos dare not say anything about the military-industry complex, fearing losing their jobs and being killed by assasins with silenced pistols while asleep or being blown to pieces in their cars.
    Ruvy, to you little Jew head where the brain is no larger than a peanut, you live in a polic state and constant death shadow, you don’t know anything free,so you think we Chinese live like you, police taking care of everything. you poor little Jew. Shanghai and other Chinese cities are still open for Jews if iseral is wiped out by Arabs.I personly would go to airport to pick you up, for sure, brother.It’s not the first time your hated Chinese save your Jewish ass.

  • I’m Chinese!

    When you guys talk about Chinese history and territory, remember when our ancestors wear silk and reading printed books, your ancestors still live in caves with animal skins wrapped around and bearly speak languages,even you pround Jews

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    I dont think you get it IC.. Dave, Clavos, I and Ruvy can say any godamn thing we want to about America. The only things Americans are afraid of are terrorists and spiders. You ever feel guilty about being a slave for your government? Personally, I think your govt should fire you. You’re not making a good impression with anybody on this site. Who knows? Maybe you’re the one that needs to fear assassins w/ silencers in the night.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    And I really really dont give a shit what your ancestors did or didnt do.

  • I’m Chinese!

    And I really really dont give a shit what your ancestors did or didnt do.

    I also don’t give a shit to if you will be drated to Iraq just like other GIs and cry for you mom!hehe, may these Iraqs be merciful to you just shooting in your head not using a chainsaw.

  • I’m Chinese!

    pleasexcusetheinterruption12
    August 30, 2006
    09:41 PMI dont think you get it IC.. Dave, Clavos, I and Ruvy can say any godamn thing we want to about America.

    that’s because you are paid by US government to do the stupid propaganda. give me a break.you little agent who never knows anything beyond what your government asks you to do. How much do you get for overpaid?20 $? you pathetic little spy!

  • Clavos

    Good morning, IC! Finally got your lazy ass out of bed, huh?

    Hey, IC: Do you guys enjoy flaming us as much as we enjoy flaming you?

    And one more question: Are you the agent in Beijing, or the one in Shenzen?

  • I’m Chinese!

    Clavos

    What do you think about your military’s habitual massacure of civilians of countries under your brutal occupation, like Iraq, Somalia?

  • Clavos

    I asked you first, IC!

  • I’m Chinese!

    Clavos
    “Hey, IC: Do you guys enjoy flaming us as much as we enjoy flaming you?”

    What’s interesting about Internet is people using words they barely use in real life to attack each other.
    What’s best about capitlism is the capital market. I’m very aggressive in trading, and that habit brings me these fierce words upon you guys.
    By the way, I’m used to attack and being attacked in chinese BBSs over everything. I like arguing, just by itself. Fighting with you American guys is really interesting, I almost quit doing it in Chinese these days.
    I just returned from finishing my trade. 10 minutes after I sold all my stocks, they jumped water. 5% profit overnight,not bad.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    #536, having a death wish against me is different than me not giving a shit about your ancestors. You seem to think that your ancestors were the best, and so your nation is the best. You know the last people to think that? The Nazis. And look what happened to them…

  • I’m Chinese!

    I asked you first, IC!

    Does it matter?

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    IC says: “that’s because you are paid by US government to do the stupid propaganda. give me a break.you little agent who never knows anything beyond what your government asks you to do. How much do you get for overpaid?20 $? you pathetic little spy!”

    Ok…here’s some more govt sponsered propaganda. Bush is stupid. Bush is the worst president in U.S. history. Going to Iraq was stupid. Bush’s tax cuts are a piece of shit. This entire U.S. government needs to be overthrown.

    How’s that for propaganda?

  • Clavos

    Of course it does–I’m curious.

  • I’m Chinese!

    %543
    We think we are the best for 5000 years. You just do get it, right? The truth is, we can not think we are the best and stop learning from others. That is why we lagged behind in thelast 200 years. what’s you American and Nazi same is that you both think you are best and want to kill those you think less good than you. We Chinese help those we think are less good. That’s why we stand for 5000 years, while you and Nazi have short time of dominance. America is doomed, you admit or not.

  • I’m Chinese!

    #545
    It took you so long to say these. Did you ask your superior officers for a permission for that?
    hahaha, you need a have a blank permission for that so that you can respond quicker and really looks that you are not a government agent!

  • Clavos

    Hey, IC. I really need that info asap. I’ve got to have it for my report to General Hayden. He’s really been on my ass lately, and I’m afraid he’s going to take me out to the garden and shoot me in the head.

  • Clavos

    Oh, and while at it, IC. I need your current troop strength in North Korea and Vietnam, as well as Tibet.

    Oh, and one other thing: haow many of those guys in your embassy in DC are spies? I can’t believe Gen. Hayden doesn’t already know that. What a dummy he must be!

  • I’m Chinese!

    “Hey, IC. I really need that info asap. I’ve got to have it for my report to General Hayden. He’s really been on my ass lately, and I’m afraid he’s going to take me out to the garden and shoot me in the head.”

    After he raped you 11-year sister and shot her in the head and set fire on her body like you did in Iraq?

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    It’s funny you can spout off about being the best for 5000 years, and yet simultaneously claim America is going to fall because they think they are the best. How ironic.

  • Clavos

    I’m waiting, IC. Where’s all this Chinese compassion you’ve been talking about? You really want to see me be executed by my superiors??? Who will you rag on tomorrow night when I’m dead?? You think Dave and pleaseexcuse and Ruvy will give a damn when you no longer have anyone to play with?

    C’mon man, throw me a bone. At least tell me how many spies you got in the DC embassy.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    Lets see you say some naughty shit bout China, IC. Come on now. Lets see it. And if you’ve been paying attention, I, Dave, Clavos, and Ruvy all make very serious criticisms of the U.S. government. Frequently. And Dave cannot be a U.S. agent because he’s a wannabe politician.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    What’s the wait? You getting approval?

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Dave and Clavos dare not say anything about the military-industry complex, fearing losing their jobs and being killed by assasins with silenced pistols while asleep or being blown to pieces in their cars.

    Do you get your ideas on America from watching old reruns of Miami Vice on satellite or something? First off, both Clavos and I are self-employed so no one is going to fire us. Second, no one in the US ever gets assassinated for criticizing the government. We have loons like Chomsky who have been making wacko statements for years and no one has done anything about them. Sounds like you’re projecting what happens to dissidents in China onto the US.

    Dave

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    What’s the matter youve been posting a comment every 15 min for the past 2 hours, but when I ask you to criticize your government you zip shut for 45 minutes….do govt agents take coffee breaks or are you getting approval to say something naughty?

  • Clavos

    IC: Was it something I said????

  • I’m Chinese!

    Buddy,what’s the rush. It is Beijing time 11:30-12:300,my lunch time and nap time.
    As to my government, I have no complaint. My government doesn’t make enemies who wish to bomb us with their own body. It’s safe in China. In the city I live, gurglaries are rare. I just voted for a candidate in my district. The guy looks honest and hardworking. Last month I comlainted to the Mayor’s office about the traffic jam on the road from my home to office. Three days later I heard on Tv that they are going to build a new bgridged highway to divert the traffic in 2 years. In a country where GDP grows 10% a year and my personal income grows faster than that, where I bought an apartment of 5 bedrooms and 2 baths near the mountain,I drive a 2004 VW Passat and plan to buy an Audi Q7 and I pan to start my own hedge fund next year when my first baby will see his/her dady, what do I have to complain about my government? It does not send troops in Iraq where the soldiers shoot civilians as if they were turkies and rape young girls and make porn video of the evil conducts and sell them for US$. It is you americans who should complain about you government!

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    If there was any doubt you work for your government, you just got rid of it. No sane human being likes their government as much as you do.

  • Dean

    “I, Dave, Clavos, and Ruvy all make very serious criticisms of the U.S. government.”

    — #554 pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    “Bush is the worst president in U.S. history. Going to Iraq was stupid. Bush’s tax cuts are a piece of shit. This entire U.S. government needs to be overthrown.”

    — #545 pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    IC, what do you think of that confession?

  • I’m Chinese!

    you girls just talk and talk. if you’re not happy with your government and your life, stop bullshiting,do something! I will send you some makeups,how about Estee Laundr, my wife’s choice?

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    Dean #563, it’s not a confession. A confession implies personal guilt, and I am the last one responsible for Bush’s (repeated) election. Quite the opposite. I dont know what kind of sick twisted democracy you live in Dean, but where I come from, criticizing your government isnt a confession, it’s an obligation.

  • MCH

    “IC, The RECORD shows that JFK INCREASED troop strength in Vietnam during his time in office. (Verifiable, factual info, not speculation on the part of conspiracy theorists).”
    – Clavos

    And yet somehow Dick Cheney, Paul Wolfowitz, Newt Gingrich, Karl Rove, John Ashcroft, Rush Limbaugh, Bill Bennett, Dick Armey, et al, (war-wimps all) still managed to miss out….

  • I’m Chinese!

    just to remind you girls, you are already on the watchlist of FBI, CIA and a dozen of three-letter agencies. Call me when you are stalked oneday in the street by sunglass wearing stone-faced guys from black vans without plates. It’s me who set you girls up. Voila, America Policia!!HAHAHA!

  • I’m Chinese!

    or should I say, “America Polizei”? hehehe!!

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    If saying what I said in America was dangerous I wouldnt have said it. [Edited] If it were dangerous to say that, I would be excessively brave. But it’s not dangerous, fortunately. You’re the one too scared to say something bad about your govt [Edited]

    [Edited]

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    You know the large majority of humans are so repulsed by your crude, violent and childish remarks, you would be much more convincing if you said nothing at all.

  • I’m Chinese!

    G! I am amazed at how I’m adept in using the words I learnt from American movies!

  • I’m Chinese!

    To 575#

    What’s wrong with me?Just because I sound like American to you? Or I just remind you of the truth that you American troops are now shooting civilians in other countries for fun and raping babe girls?

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    My government doesn’t make enemies who wish to bomb us with their own body.

    Really? Do they manage to lock down news so well inside China that you’re not aware that you’ve got Islamic terrorists of your own – created by your government’s policies?

    Are you allowed to access Human Rights Watch? Use that link to read up on Chinese persecution of the Uighurs in XinJiang province.

    Oddly enough they didn’t respond well to China’s genocidal policies, and being Moslems and closely linked to the Uzbeks and Turkmen and possibly Al Qaeda and the Taliban they struck back with bombs. Perhaps this lengthy catalog of terror attacks will help enlighten you.

    Not clear if any of them are suicide bombers. Maybe they just figure they can do a better job by living to bomb again another day. Perhaps they hate their chinese persecutors enough to want to live to attack them again and again.

    Dave

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    Usually American movies dont depict rape as something funny. You, however, seem to find it hilarious.

  • I’m Chinese!

    I watch american movies almost everyday. I like them. Full of guns, fire, death, really cool. many time I believe I think like an American, like violence, self-centered, and oppotunistic. Isn’t flattering to you a Chinese think and talk like an American? What’s your problem? Acting like an American is so bad?

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    You are the first person I have ever heard wishing for someone else to be raped. You do not remotely sound like an American.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    Hey China! Your government agent thinks raping people is funny! I think you need a new government!

  • I’m Chinese!

    Dave

    [Edited] believing everything your government tells you. I have clients all across China, terrist attacts in China are rare and all sponsored by US. When US captured the Uighurs terrorists, US just trained them and released them and help them penentrate china to make terrorist attacks.
    You are a sick US government dog attacking China by fabricating lies. If you have concience as you claimed, do something for the Iraq families blown apart by your fellow Americans!

  • I’m Chinese!

    “You are the first person I have ever heard wishing for someone else to be raped. You do not remotely sound like an American.”

    Actually it is you Americans doing that in Iraq. There are competitions among your soldiers in raping most and youngest and prettiest! You sick Americans!
    There are also competitions in killing more families together among American soldiers!

  • I’m Chinese!

    this is what you Americans do!Raping and taking pictures for money! You are animals!

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    Well, IC – one of us is certainly just repeating lies from their government.

    On the other hand I was just passing on information from international human rights organizations which have no ties whatever to the US government and have even been critical of it.

    Dave

  • Dean

    “Are you allowed to access Human Rights Watch?”

    — Dave Nalle

    Dave, what is Human Rights Watch saying today about the thousands of unexploded American-made cluster bombets scattered around Lebanese villages? The ones that kids like to pick up because they appear to be toys.

    Who is Human Rights Watch criticizing today?

  • Dean

    IC — some advice.

    Tone it down.

    If you have something intelligent to say, say it.

    Otherwise don’t say it.

  • Dean

    IC — to elaborate, whatever you say, have some modicum of proof to back it up.

  • I’m Chinese!

    — to elaborate, whatever you say, have some modicum of proof to back it up.

    Actually It’s impossible to do that all the time.
    As a good stock trader, I’m good at get the full picture from scattered information.

  • I’m Chinese!

    most time people make decision not on facts but on judgement! It’s inevitable.

  • I’m Chinese!

    What I hear from Dave never happens around my life! I have friends and fellow students from 7 different ethnic minorities(Tibet, Weiwuer, Mongol, Man, Zhuang, Hui, She), they never complained what Dave said, because there is no such things! At colledge, these guys receive more financial aide than I did(I’m Han)! We Han can have at least two kids, but they are not restricted! Some Han people even changed their ethnic identity to enjoy the numerous benefits!

  • I’m Chinese!

    What makes me really angry is Americans like Dave and Clavos, persisted in fabrecating lies about China and intentionally evade serious problems like invasion and occupation of Iraq, massure of Iraq people and raping of Iraq women! This attitude is equal to animals of the worst kind!

  • Dean

    “most time people make decision not on facts but on judgement!”

    I would suggest it is preferable to make judgments based on facts.

  • I’m Chinese!

    Before I came to this site, I never had any in-depth talking of these with Americans. I thought American were good-hearted. Now I find Dave and Clavos, typical of educated American, are heartless animals. I was once tearing on 911 victims, but now I will not feel sorry for any American loss of lives, because they are just like Dave and Clavos, heartless and evil. You America will fall, when you fall, you will break along your ethnic lines, and all those countries like Iraq, Iran,Serbs, will jump on you for revenge.The more people you kill today, the more your children will pay for these crimes.

  • MCH

    “Dean
    Dave will never do something about what you said, because he is part of the evil war machine. He tortures people as a career!”
    – I’m Chinese

    Well, not exactly, I’m Chinese, since he has never served in the military. And in his defense, Nalle has never tortured people, although he has shot and killed numerous stray dogs who happen to wander too close to his fortified compound.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    To “I’m Chinese!”

    Talking about Tibet, Tibet is a province of China since the Yuan Dynasty since 1240 A.D. We Chinese are known to keep all these files intact. There are volumous records of royal ordering and government files through 800 years both in Beijing, and Tibet.

    Thank you. You taught me something I didn’t know.

    Now, I’ll teach you something you didn’t know. You would if you had been reading my comments elsewhere on Blog Critics on Tibet.

    The Nazis had a religious philosophy of racial purity and cleansing the land. In chasing down their own racial purity, they discovered that their own roots were in Tibet.

    They sent a fellow to train the man who is now known as the Dalai Lama. You can draw your own conclusions using that vaunted judgment of yours. Who knows? Maybe the government boys you report to could use that data in their propaganda – to throw a little dirt on the fellow who leads a rebellion against you from overseas…

    Several times, you’ve ragged on about Jews being rescued by Chinese in Shanghai and being ungrateful for it. You left out a minor point or two in your rendition. This is from one of the thousands of items one can find on Jews in Shanghai during WWII.

    “To be sure, there were hardships aplenty in Shanghai, where the influx of tens of thousands of impoverished refugees overwhelmed the abilities of the existing Jewish community, as well as the ruling Japanese, who eventually herded them into the Hongkew ghetto. Food was scarce and survivors vividly describe suffering through the bitter Shanghai winter in rags and homemade sandals. Unlike in Europe, though, the Jews in Shanghai’s ghetto fared no worse than the population around them. And there was no policy of repression or genocide.”

    So, to cut to the chase, it was the Japanese cannibals who ruled Shanghai who provided Jews there with refuge. The Chinese might have, but it was not their choice to – they were the slaves in Japan’s empire at the time.

    Jews do not forget their benefactors – in this case Japanese benefactors. My father, however, was not one of these refugees.

    There was an authentic Jewish community in Kai- feng, refugees from ancient Judea, for many centuries that eventually intermarried, lost its holy books and exists no more. To my knowledge, this community was not persecuted in China and one of its members even rose to high ranks in the Communist Party in China.

    Now have a cup of tea, take some happy pills and chill out. The day will come in the not too distant future when Chinese soldiers will attack this country from the north along with lot of other foreign troops. And here they will die in a holocaust of judgment.

    But today is not that day. So after you’ve chilled out a bit, go back to your stocks and make some money and enjoy yourself.

  • equal

    To IC #587:

    IC, do not go to extrem, do not say that. Not all american like that.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    now I will not feel sorry for any American loss of lives, because they are just like Dave and Clavos, heartless and evil.

    Let me get this straight. We’re the ones who are heartless and evil because we oppose the persecution of free speech, ethnic minorities and religious groups in China? Yet the Polyanna of Beijing isn’t heartless and evil for swallowing government propaganda and never questioning what his leaders are doing in their torture chambers, work camps and pogroms?

    If you don’t like my evidence of Chinese oppression from Human Rights watch, perhaps you’d prefer to look at some material from Amnesty International about the case of Chen Guangcheng who has been given 4 years in prison for helping people organize a protest against forced abortion and involuntary sterilization in China.

    You could just take a look at their assessment of Chines human rights abuses at their main site.

    Here’s a quote from their assesment of the recnetly installed administration of Hu Jintao:

    Despite a few positive steps, no attempt was made to introduce the fundamental legal and institutional reforms necessary to bring an end to serious human rights violations. Tens of thousands of people continued to be detained or imprisoned in violation of their rights to freedom of expression and association, and were at serious risk of torture or ill-treatment. Thousands of people were sentenced to death or executed. Restrictions increased on the cultural and religious rights of the mainly Muslim Uighur community in Xinjiang, where thousands of people have been detained or imprisoned for so-called “separatist” or “terrorist” offences. In Tibet and other ethnic Tibetan areas, freedom of expression and religion continued to be severely restricted. China continued to use the international “war against terrorism” as a pretext for cracking down on peaceful dissent.

    How can you ignore this? Do you think these international groups are just making this stuff up? Do you think that because YOU are not persecuted everything is just great in China? Open your eyes.

    And here’s a serious question. Can you even access websites like Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International from inside China? Based on your comments you either can’t or choose not to, and I’m curious which it is.

    Dave

  • Nancy

    IC, you sound like you’ve had a few too many cups of coffee, here. Calm down & stop shooting off juvenile insults at everybody. The guys are pressing your buttons to watch you make a fool of yourself, and you’ve been obliging them. Save your dignity & chill a bit.

    Next, being female is not an insult. Maybe to you it is (I’m well aware of the chinese cultural attitude towards women), but it’s not, and it shouldn’t be, any more than I should be insulting you by calling you a “chink” or any other derogatory term referring to your Han heritage. I’m severely offended by you trying to mock the others by calling them “girls” & offering them makeup; it denigrates all women, everywhere. Knock it off, and you owe me an apology.

    Finally, both Americans and Chinese have lots of great things to be proud of with both their countries, and both countries have their bad sides as well, as I’m sure you’re well aware. You don’t raise up China by putting down the US.

    Oh – as for Dave being a killer, I know his photo is a little alarming, but he’s really a lovely person, as long as you ignore his theories of workaday economics.

    I don’t know anyone who would disagree, China is going to be one of the biggest players in world economics, if it already isn’t. With a 300 bil population, how could it help but be? That’s a lot of buying/selling power, as you rightly pointed out.

    Do you specialize in any particular kind of stocks? Are you a broker or an agent?

  • I’m Chinese

    “So, to cut to the chase, it was the Japanese cannibals who ruled Shanghai who provided Jews there with refuge. The Chinese might have, but it was not their choice to – they were the slaves in Japan’s empire at the time.”

    Shanghai was then occupied partly by Japnanese, but it was still at least a Chinese territory. Shanghai was divided into different sections controlled by different Western nations, called “rented territory”. The Jews first recerived visa from Chinese embassy in Berlin and Munich to go to China, when France, UK and US refuesed to do so. After their arrival in Shanghai, although China was very hard fighting against The Japs, we still tried our best to provide for them. You can not ask for more when China barely had enough to feed our own people. Do not forget this: while we are fighting for our own survival, we extended hands to help you Jes survive! Could any other nation do that? You tell me!
    I will post your comment on thanks for Japs for your Shanghai trip to Chinese BBS. I am sure you will receive a lot response.

  • I’m Chinese

    Dave Nalle

    Plse tell me why you evade the questions I asked about US troops raping Iraq women? Where are their human rights? do not play God to me Dare not say anything about that because your boss will get upset? Or you are just one of the rapists?

  • I’m Chinese

    Dave

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

    I do not go to the Web sites because it is well known it is financed to fabricate lies about China. Why would I bother to look at lies although I did visit these sites and felt repulsed by the outright lies!
    You neve talk about anythging but lies about human rights in China, It is not a normal man would do unless he is determined to be the enemy of China. [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

    [I welcome the presence of an ever wider international community here on Blogcritics and will be somewhat distressed if compelled to ban such a recent arrival as yourself for persistent and wilful disregard for the Blogcritics Comments Policy. The choice is yours…
    Comments Editor]

  • equal

    “So, to cut to the chase, it was the Japanese cannibals who ruled Shanghai who provided Jews there with refuge. The Chinese might have, but it was not their choice to – they were the slaves in Japan’s empire at the time.

    Jews do not forget their benefactors – in this case Japanese benefactors. My father, however, was not one of these refugees. ”

    I think it is not fair to say that. You did not know that Japan was ally of Nazi Germany during that time? You think it was Japanese who made those Jews survival there? Well,they put them in a camp (no freedom to go other place) and even did not give them enough food, but they survived because many chinese threw food over the camp wall to them. If your father was one of those refugee, you would not think like that.

    How about another story in Harbin city, there is still a Jew’s cemetery (of those Jews who past away during that time) in that city, the chinese government (no mater which one) always send a person just to be responsable for taking care of the cemetery, that is why it is still in good condition and never got destroyed (even during culture revolution). One of your prime minister once visited (in 2003 or 2004, I do not remember)that city for this, and he definitely appreciated that a lot(not like you). Chinese did not and do not expect appreciation from you guys, they did what their heart let them do, but fact is fact, your thinking is wrong.

  • I’m Chinese

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

    I will not be bothered by what I said, although I really apologize for the un-intentional humiliation on Nancy. This is a place I show Chinese will also get rough and tough, like a cowboy,not just as domicile as you have as a stereotype image. My generation of Chinese are more outspoken and more prone to solve problems with force, just like you Americans do. I do not defend my government for what it really did, like the Culture Revolution. But I will defend my government for what it really does not do, as Dave sinisterly lies about. Because my government is what stands between Daves and my family!

    It is a typical blackening tactic the US government is very good at. You repeat lies over thousands of times and it is true. That is what Dave does. The only reason he does that is because that is his job. But your God will also keep balance.

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Equal,

    Your friend mentioned Shanghai several times, alluding to the idea that Jews have no gratitude. He accused my father of having been one of those refugees in Shanghai who only cared if he was fed, for example. I never said anything about Chinese attitudes towards Jews that was negative. He raised the topic all by himself.

    I googled up “Jews in Shanghai in WWII” and found several thousands of references. This particular one did not mention the consular passes from the Chinese embassies in Europe. Had it done so, I would have noted it myself. As I say, we do not forget our benefactors. You needn’t believe me; go back and click to the live link to the original article(which should appear in blue) in comment #589 and check for yourself.

    For this reason, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, when he visited Harbin, thanked your country and more importantly, your people. While I thought Mr. Sharon to be a traitor in many ways, thanking the people of China for their aid in the Second World War was wise, and in this sense he represented all of us, myself included.

    There are a number of people in Israel (particularly Jews from Russia) who believe that my country should unhook itself from its dependency on the United States and seek out China as an ally. For religious and political reasons that I will not bother you with here, I do not think an alliance with China is wise.

    But we should most assuredly unhook ourselves from our dependency on the United States and expand business contacts far more than they exist now.

    You are of course right to say that the Japanese were allies of Nazi Germany, in the formal sense, at least. I suspect that had the Nazis defeated Britain and the United States (they should never have gone towar against the USSR), they would have wound up fighting and attempting to destroy Japan.

    It was not Japanese policy to be friendly to Jews. But the Japanese ambassador to Lithuania issued many passes to Jews to get them their freedom. These acts cost him his career in the imperial government during and after the war, and he received no recognition for his good deeds while he was alive. But after his death, one of the children who had been influential in persuading this Japanese functionary to act in so humane a fashion saw to it that his widow was honored on behalf of his actions.

  • Clavos

    OK, Let me see if I’ve got this right.

    China is a peaceful, progressive country, living in harmony with all the rest of the world, which treats ALL of its citizens, even those who criticize it, with dignity and respect. Chinese citizens have full civil rights, including the right to freedom of speech, which nobody exercises because evrything is so perfect there’s no need to.

    On the other hand, the US is a brutal imperialistic nation, with no respect for anyone’s rights, including those of its own citizens, which is bent on conquering the world.
    Life in the US is brutal and harsh for all but a tiny minority of the ruling class, who torture all the rest.

    Does that about cover it, IC?

    If not, why don’t you accept pleaseexcuse’s challenge, and tell us what is wrong in China–you’ve already told us, repeatedly, what you think is wrong with the US, so let’s hear more about China’s shortcomings.

  • equal

    Ruvy,

    I did not say that you should not appreciate what that Japanese officer did (although this is my first time to know this story). It is just not right that you put all or most credit on Japanese, a chinese ambassador (of the chinese government before 1949) gave a lot of pass to Jews to the chinese region not occupied by japanese then.(I think we maybe talking about different group of Jews refugee). And sorry I do not want to bother myself to search more fact on this issue, because i am not very interested in it. Again, Chinese do expect appreciation from you guys.

    For ally issue, I totally agree with you, it is not wise for China and Israel being allies. Especially based on how you guys treat those arabian, that is against chinese principle. Do more business is definitely good to both countries.

    Chinese believe everyone should have the right to own a land to live. I mean everyone. I am on nobody’s side. And I do hope Israel and Arab countries can learn lessons from the past, do not try to destroy each other anymore, and start to treat each other nicely, step by step, so all you guys can live on that land peacefully,(taht land is big enough for all of you) and happy after.

  • equal

    IC, Clavos,

    Nobody is perfect, and no country is perfect. What is the use to just blame on each other? Why don’t you guys cool down a little and talk nicely and let each other know more fact of these two great countries?

    Maybe it is time to make a U turn and back to “shut up” issue again:)

  • equal

    Correction to #600:

    Again, chinese never expect appreciation from you guys.

  • Nancy

    Thank you, IC; I appreciate your apology.

    The thing is, and what you mistake in Americans, is that first and foremost, MOST Americans are not & do not approve of “rough & tough”. Most Americans are very law-abiding, and are outraged by violence in any form, or those who violate the laws – any laws. One of the major and most astonishing aspects of the US is that despite sometimes massive provocations, citizens of the US abide by the law, and do not resort to “rough & tough” or strongarm tactics. An excellent example of this occurs every 4 years when we have our elections. These are always hotly contested, sometimes bitter, and the last two have been downright poisonous, with lasting ill-will between the parties and rife with suspicions of vote fraud, etc. – and yet for the entire 200+ years of American history, not ONCE has violence or lawlessness erupted on the part of those who have lost the elections, and the transfer of power takes place without coups, without blood, without strife, truly something few other nations can claim. Even the results of the last election were settled by the courts, and accepted by all citizens of the US peacefully, however much some of us despise the Bush administration. This by itself is the most telling and salient aspect of the American personality, and the American culture: we are a people of courts, and laws. We don’t always like them, and we don’t all of us always obey them (or we’d have no criminals), but the generality of the citizenry abides by them peacefully, and there is provision for redress when those laws are violated.

    In the main, our civil servants are hard-working, honest people who go the extra mile to serve the public. The occasional rotten egg gets all the attention because s/he IS so very rare. Our military, large as it is, powerful as it is, is in no way a threat to the public or citizens, nor is it used to police them, save in exceptional circumstances (such as the hurricane), and even then they’re generally working at relief efforts while the police remain in charge of law & order. No US citizen is afraid of either our military or the top officers who run it, nor do we worry the military will stage a coup, or be used against us, for example, should we stage mass demonstrations. It doesn’t happen here in the US. Nothing like Tienamen Square would ever happen here, where a tank rolls over a protester. It would be unthinkable, and not tolerated by the public for any reasons. The one time there WAS an incident where a protesting student was shot during a demonstration, at Kent State over 40 years ago, public uproar was so great that safeguards were instituted to ensure it never happens again – but we still talk about it, which gives you an idea of the magnitude of how unusual the incident was, here in the US.

    The American movies you see that feature all the guns & violence are an anomaly of American culture. It’s Hollywood pandering to the lowest cultural denominator, the lowest slobs on the IQ scale who love that sort of thing, the little boys who haven’t yet grown up, the idiots who think that this sort of thing is the way to do handle problems – and who usually end up in jail if they try it. Americans are no more likely to solve their arguments with guns a la Rambo than they are to dress like those slutty nymphet pop singers or characters one sees on American soap operas; and those that do are severely condemned by all, and just as severely prosecuted and punished by the law. You have to separate the Hollywood fantasy from the living reality of life in the US, and for someone who has never been here or lived here, someone from a different culture whose entire image of the US is formed from these stupid pulp movies and TV shows, that is difficult, but it must be done. Movies & TV are fantasy. They are entertainment. But they aren’t real, and they are no more reflective of the true nature of American life & the attitude of Americans towards lawlessness and violence than a can of chop suey is representative of Chinese cuisine. Otherwise why do you think Americans are making such a stink over these purported rapes by US soldiers? It’s because they are NOT tolerated, and NOT tolerable, by the standards of American citizens. Otherwise, no one would be saying a word.

    American is very, very different from what you seem to think it is. This is no fault of yours, but attributable to those idiot movies & TV programs you see. Again, you must remember, they are NOT REAL. And they are NOT us.

  • equal

    To Dave:

    Is it possible to add “edit function” so that if sb made some mistake on typing or whatever, they can edit their own post?

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Equal, just for the record. My father, may his memory be for a blessing, was born in 1908 and died in 1976. He was warned about China by veterans of the Russo-Japanese War of 1904-5, a war fought almost entirely in China. And he warned me.

    The Jewish soldiers forced to serve in the Czar’s army saw the rising power of China in the future, even though it was a weak state exploited by foreigners in 1904. The warning was not that China was evil, but once it arose from its weakness and threw off its chains, it would be powerful and potentially very dangerous.

    We see here that its military men are not afraid to threaten the “most powerful nation on earth,” with nuclear attack and one its ambassadors is not afraid to tell American leaders to “shut up”.

    That doesn’t bother me at all. It’s about time someone told Americqan leaders to shut up.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    You forgot the civil war Nancy. The deep south (TX, LA, MS, AL, GA, FL, SC) seceded shortly following Lincoln’s election, and before he had even taken office. When he sent supplies to Fort Sumter, the confederates attacked and took the fort. NC, Arkansas, Tennessee, and VA, proceeded to secede.

    Certainly the secession was ultimately based on ideological differences. But the immediate reason was an objection to the expression of those differences – the election of Abraham Lincoln. In effect, the south seceded because it didnt like the election results.

    Not that I disagree with your point. The U.S. record of peaceful transfer of power is astonishing – the civil war being the one and only major blemish.

  • Nancy

    I still contend that was based on states’ rights issues, not Lincoln’s election. Had Lincoln not then proceeded to send troops & supplies to Sumter, the initial spark might never have happened…but that’s for another thread.

    My main point is, all these ‘tough guy’ movies are NOT reality about America – as I said, any more than a can of chop suey represents the reality of Chinese cuisine.

  • Chinese

    So many brain-washed Americans here, no interest to read.

    The number of brainwashed Americans is comparable with those brainwashed Chinese.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    You said it yourself Nancy – “it was based on states rights issues” – ideological differences resulting in conflict. Lincoln was only the physical representation of these differences.

    If democrats were to take up arms against republicans, the root cause wouldnt be the election of Bush, it would again be ideological differences.

    And Lincoln never sent troops to Fort Sumter. He carefully informed SC that the ships contained no munitions or troops.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    If you’d like to give us a history lesson on the causes of the civil war, feel free IC. You’ve already given us a history lesson of every american atrocity from the pilgrims to today.

    And Im still waiting for you to accept my challenge. I dare you to say something bad about your government.

  • Dean

    Everyone is brainwashed to a degree.

    That’s what our respective leaders and media do for us.

  • I’m Chinese

    Bored by you brainwashed Americans. Last sentence: as long as there is a living American like Dave or Clavos, I support my government under any situtation, because my government doesn’t shoot my family, neither rape my female family members, but Americans will do, if they invade China.
    As to Tiananmen Square, it is fabricated to blacken China as you American did so manyl times in cold war both on China and Soviet. One of my child neighbors was there that night. He told us, they were just driven out of the square,but no shooting. As to the picture Nancy refered to , it’s a fake.
    Nancy, check out hou many times your Nationla Guard were called in to take care of people. Just check it during the VietNam war.
    Here are something to read
    Your military systematically train your soldiers to think Non Americans as non human, as the vets in these archives reveal.

    There is nothing to talk more with Dave or Clavos. The only language you understand is violence. As to Nancy, wellcome to China. Nice Americans are always our friends and our family members.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    What is this fantasy about the U.S. invading China??? That’s the absolute last thing on anybody’s mind in the U.S. Are you on drugs IC?

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Let me translate from the Chinese:

    Bored by you brainwashed Americans.

    I don’t like losing this argument.

    Last sentence: as long as there is a living American like Dave or Clavos,

    I wish I could imprison Dave and Clavos so they would stop talking about freedom.

    I support my government under any situtation,

    If I don’t support my government I’ll certainly end up in a work camp.

    because my government doesn’t shoot my family,

    My government only kills members of my family who are newborns or politically active or who read the wrong books or who pray in public, etc.

    neither rape my female family members,

    My government only turns a blind eye to my female relatives being sold into slavery.

    but Americans will do, if they invade China.

    American ideas are invading China and they’re the real threat.

    As to Tiananmen Square, it is fabricated to blacken China as you American did so manyl times in cold war both on China and Soviet.

    I have to live in a state of denial to avoid becoming suicidal.

    One of my child neighbors was there that night. He told us, they were just driven out of the square,but no shooting. As to the picture Nancy refered to , it’s a fake.

    Everyone in the world is lying. Only the Chinese government tells the truth.

    Nancy, check out hou many times your Nationla Guard were called in to take care of people. Just check it during the VietNam war.

    Damn the imperialist running dogs of America for not wanting Vietnam to be a Chinese puppet state.

    There is nothing to talk more with Dave or Clavos.

    I’m going to take my marbles and go home.

    The only language you understand is violence.

    If I continue this discussion I’m liable to get a good beating from thugs working for the local party boss.

    As to Nancy, wellcome to China. Nice Americans are always our friends and our family members.

    Nancy doesn’t value her freedom, we can accomodate her limited demands in China. Come on down.

    Dave

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    And there he was thinking he knew how to speak English!

  • I’m Chinese!

    Ruvy
    for your information, this is the Chinese diplomat who saved over 18,000 Austrian Jews!

  • Clavos

    Very funny, Dave. Props, man.

  • I’m Chinese!

    this is a chinese woman living in Belgium, who was loved by the highest commander of the German occupation foreces and willing to save Jews for her as she asked for that. The Belgium government issued a medal to her for that after the war!

  • I’m Chinese!

    Dave
    Cut the crap. There must be reasons bad guys like you are so determined in saying bad things about China. It is that Chinese government is good. 10% GDP growth a year, no government does better than that! Very soon when we say “shut up”, you will really do. That’s what you try to prevent. So keep repeating the lies. You are not saying these lies to me, you are saying to other Americans reading this thread. You are brainwashing your fellow Americans so that you will scare them like you did in the cold war. Carry on, because my life won’t turn to bad no matter what you say, it’ll get better. Americans will pay more taxes for that, on the contrary.
    Actually you never respond to the crimes your government commits I mentioned. You just persist in repeating lies about China. It’s simple and basic interrogation technique, ”lead the talk”. But you are not doing very well in this thread. You’re probably 20 years older than me, but you’re far less sophisticated than me. This is all you can do? Fail to convert me? Hahaha. It seems you will lose your bonus this month..

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption12

    Yes, very funny, I almost fell out of my chair. But I was sorta desperate for a laugh. Maybe that’s why im getting so much fun out of this thread. Keep it up IC!

  • I’m Chinese!

    Ruvy
    Many of the Chinese who saved Jews in WWII never talked about their heroic deeds in public. It is the old-fashioned Chinese way to keep quiet on one’s own good deeds. After these heros passed away, their families and friends found these in their diaries and notes and published them in Chinese. And many Jews although they were discriminated by others discriminated Chinese, so even after they were helped by Chinese to survive, they felt ashamed by saving by Chinks and kept quiet on it. So there must be more Jews saved by more Chinese than we know today!
    You and other reading this thread keep in mind, as you rarely fairly admit that China is the only nation never suppressed Jews in history! A nation with this tolerance poses no threat to the world! If we can tolerate a people so hated by all others, what can’t we tolerate?

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Cut the crap. There must be reasons bad guys like you are so determined in saying bad things about China. It is that Chinese government is good.

    You do realize that all I’ve done is repeat facts which are public knowledge everywhere but China? I’m not saying bad things, I’m repeating known facts.

    10% GDP growth a year, no government does better than that!

    And here’s a fundamental misconception born of a communist background. Governments for the most part don’t cause the GDP to grow. GDP grows because of the productivity of businesses. Unless, of course, the state owns all the businesses then I guess GDP growth could be credited to the state. Is that how it works in China?

    Very soon when we say “shut up”, you will really do.

    You’re expecting China to take over the US and/or the internet and to be able to censor us and stop us telling the truth, thn?

    That’s what you try to prevent.

    Indeed. I try to prevent China from killing free speech and hiding the truth.

    So keep repeating the lies. You are not saying these lies to me, you are saying to other Americans reading this thread. You are brainwashing your fellow Americans so that you will scare them like you did in the cold war.

    Based on this thread and your last couple of comments you can scare them just fine without my help.

    Carry on, because my life won’t turn to bad no matter what you say, it’ll get better.

    So long as you don’t deviate from the party line.

    Actually you never respond to the crimes your government commits I mentioned.

    I freely admit my country isn’t perfect. I consider every incarcerated marijuana user to be a political prisoner, and our conduct in the war in Iraq has certainly been less than perfect. But one American soldier who’s mentally ill committing a rape and a couple of murders isn’t comparable to mass infanticide, genocide and political persecution as practiced in China.

    Not surprisingly you seem to have no conception of the individual and how the actions of individuals are separate from the policies of government.

    I attacked on you on intention. Just to draw attentions of the web manager to censor my posts to show even if on Internet in US, there are limits on the freedom of speech!

    If you check up on it you’ll find that I’m on record as vehemently opposing the comment policy on blogcritics.

    I succeeded in doing that, just a blow to your boasted freedom of free expression.

    You had to have a European accomplice to pull it off. I wonder is Christopher Rose will read this and be at all troubled that you and he share similar objectives.

    Dave

  • I’m Chinese!

    Dave and other American cold war fighters

    this is one of your ritired CIA collegues confessed about the fabircation of human rights abuse in China!

  • I’m Chinese!

    Editor’s note: In 1944, Chungking, Gen. Stilwell, chief of the US Military Mission in China, asked for Pres. Roosevelt’s permission to equip the Communist troops to fight Japan. Chiang Kai Sek went into a rage and forced Roosevelt to sack Gen. Stil well. Gen. “Vinegar” Stilwell says in his memoirs:

    “The basic trouble with Chiang is just his plain dumb ignorance. One of the worst disservice done to the American people is the overselling of Chiang Kai Sek. We’ve made a hero out of him and he believes all the crap he’s read in our press about him an d he thinks he hasn’t got anything to learn.

    Actually, he has little power – far less than people at home suppose. He couldn’t get his generals to obey him if he ordered one; they don’t want to move. They are making money now – hoarding food for speculation, selling our supplies on the black market, lending money; by God, they are not soldiers, they’re speculators…e ach general has settled down on his own little dunghill and doesn’t want to disturb the peace.”.

    The old “Vinegar” could have referred to Rhee Syngman of S Korea.
    The US has again asked the UN to condemn China’s human rights record. Our nervousness over this issue is increased by the scheduled reversion of Hong Kong to Chinese rule next year. The condemnation request has been accompanied by a barrage of media stor ies about China’s treatment of orphans, the Laogai prison system, the lack of political freedom and other issues.

    Observers of international political developments will recognize such stories as the standard accompaniment of operations by the CIA/NED to alter or overthrow target governments. The US corporate-owned media, in league with government agencies, orchestrat e media coverage to demonize states in conflict with corporate plans. (Many of the media stories seem to be generated by the “privately funded” US-based Human Rights Watch/Asia). Once and if the Chinese government is changed and serves well the corporate state, even if any abuses multiply — we will hear no protest.

    The above events delineate and reveal the current US policy of using (rightly or wrongly) the theme of human rights violations to alter or overthrow non-US-favored governments. In those countries emerging from the once Soviet Bloc that is forming new gove rnmental systems; or where emerging or Third World governments resist US influence or control, the US uses “human rights violations,” as an excuse for political action operations. “Human Rights” replaces Communist Conspiracy” as the justification for ove rthrowing governments.

    There are probably other governments targeted by CIA/NED and subject to efforts in the United Nations to censure them — I would appreciate any information this.

    Listed immediately below are a few CIABASE entries re NED/CIA operations targeted at China.

    # China, NED, 90-95 China defends human rights in a report that accused the United States and other Western nations of having concocted criticism for sinister political purposes. Washington Post 12/29/95 a28

    # 94 China assails US Human Rights policies. China notes its human rights policy is better than the US’s “the incidence of crimes, murders, robberies, rapes, drug abuse and violence and racial discrimination in the US comes first…US had a higher prop ortion of imprisoned people than China.” Washington post 2/28/94 a18

    # China, 93-94 Chinese premier, Li Peng, puts order before rights. He applauded defeat of a UN move to censure China over human rights. He told the congress that his government will not hesitate to slow economic reforms to maintain order. A runaway in flation was a major player in the 89 pro-democracy protests. Leaders of the movement are at crux of Western concern about human rights in China. Washington times 3/11/94 a17

    # China, 88-94 Prior to the Tiananmen Square incident, NED had two offices in China that gave regular seminars on democracy. NED sponsored various Chinese writers and publications. Probably NED or CIA recruited numerous Chinese students studying in U S. When Tiananmen Square erupted, NED or CIA probably sent or helped FAX thousands letters to recipients in China, inflamed opinion via Voice of America and sheltered a leading dissident in US Embassy – which also arranged for many dissidents to flee. NED continues to support Chinese dissidents and awards Tiananmen’s “Goddess of Democracy,” to noted dissidents of all nations. In early 94, the US Tried to force China to ease political controls in exchange for continuation of most favored nation (MFN) trade status and called China a violator of human rights. In 5/94, the Chinese police detained 4 members of local association for human rights as one boarded flight to the US. Clinton, bowing to pressure from business interests, separated human rights from Ch ina’s MFN status. The July 1992 issue of NED’s journal of democracy announces formation of new underground movement in China – the Free Trade Union of China. The announcement was made by the international confederation of free trade unions, a long-time CI A labor front. CIABASE update report 7/94

    # China, 89 The Chinese government arrested representatives of a private American org in Beijing, the Fund for the Reform and Opening of China. George Soros who founded the fund said the Chinese government has detained Liang Congjie. Soros denied any CIA involvement in the fund. Soros, an east European 閙igr� who funds similar programs in Hungary, Poland and the USSR, Founded the China fund in 86 Soros gave the fund $1 million which it used to promote cultural exchanges and sponsor research projects in conjunction with China’s Institute for Economic Structural Reform, an influential liberal think tank supported by Zhao. Allegations that the China Fund was a tool of the CIA surfaced in 87 Washington post 8/8/89 a4

    # China, 94 NED grant to Laogai Research Foundation to continue investigations into China’s prisons and to publish an undated Laogai Handbook exposing the system. National Endowment for Democracy Annual Report 94 49

    # China, 84-90 NED, China Perspective, Inc. To continue publication of “The Chinese Intellectual” (TCI) and support for Chinese students in west. Launched in 84 with NED support, TCI is a Chinese language quarterly promoting open discussion of democra tic values, institutions and issues important to China. Originally targeted at mainland students studying in West, Journal moved its offices from New York to Beijing in 88 and began distribution in China. Center in Beijing hosted discussions on democracy in China. In wake of June 3-4, 89 events in Tiananmen square, editorial offices moved back to New York and China Perspective has begun providing support for Chinese students in West who cannot, for political reasons, return to China. National Endowment fo r Democracy Annual Report 89 16, 90 20

    # China, 92 Loss of central political control has allowed NED to expand its in-country activity that had been focused on supporting projects outside China. Concentrated on civil society development: promoting environmental awareness and activism; supp orting democratic developments in regions of China with large Tibetan population; legal education; and providing legal assistance for victims of political persecution. NED grants supported ten publications in China that focused on labor, market economics , democratization movements inside and outside China, democratic process and development of pluralistic and civil societies. National Endowment for Democracy Annual Report 1992 42

    # China, 93-95 On 6/19/95 Chinese authorities detained NED grantee Harry Wu. He was charged with spying and found guilty and sentenced to 15 years in prison and expulsion. He left 8/24/95, Wu is executive director of the Laogai Research Foundation, fu nded by NED. He testified before Congress on 4/3/95 – testimony given. National Endowment for Democracy newsletter Summer 95 4-5

    # China, 94 NED/IRI promoted electoral reform, efforts of FTUI, working with activists inside and in exile, to monitor human rights abuses, and by “Human rights China” to help activists; to support major newspapers and journals produced abroad that c irculate inside China (among them Press Freedom Guardian, Democratic China, and the Chinese Intellectual) as well as Laogai Research Foundation, which provides info about Chinese labor camps. National Endowment for Democracy Annual Report 94 8

    # China, 95 At a ceremony on 5/2/95, NED presented 95 democracy award “Goddess of democracy” to Monique Mujawamariya of Rwanda, Elena Bonner and Sergei Kovalev of Russia, and Sergio Aguayo of Mexico. National Endowment for Democracy newsletter summe r 95 1

    # China, Africa, 94 In 10/94 NED’s forum for democratic studies, sponsored. a day-long conference for political change in China. Meeting attended by 35 Leading scholars, government officials, foundation executives, and Chinese emigr閟. 12/7/94. Forum held conference on Nigeria. It brought together 35 scholars, government officials, and human rights advocates, and representatives of Nigeria’s democracy movement. Journal of Democracy (NED) 1/95

    # China, 89 In Nanjing students had boom boxes turned high to the Voice of America as it described events in China. The most effective dispenser of truth was Voice of America which stepped-up programming in Mandarin to 11 hours a day. VOA said they us ually have 60 million regular listeners in China. In the crisis the number may have been as high as 400 million. In early June VOA cameras started beaming the service’s first TV news program Via satellite to about 2000 dish antennas in China. Most of t hem at military installations, but that’s exactly the point, said VOA director Carlson: to make sure a major player in the power struggle, get an accurate account of what is going on. Newsweek 6/19/89 p29

    # China, 85 “Chinese Intellectual,” launched with NED support in 84. Magazine published in New York city by a group of writers and scholars from China. Editor is Liang Heng, who authored “son of the revolution.” Editorial board composed of distingu ished American and Chinese writers – John k. Fairbanks and Andrew Nathan, Sidney hook, and social scientists Irving Horowitz and Seymour martin Lisped. Original target audience was More than 10,000 students from China. Magazine opening office in Beijin g. National endowment for democracy annual report 1985 23-4

    # China, 86 NED – “China perspective, inc., to continue publication of “the Chinese intellectual.” This quarterly journal sought to promote discussion. Of democracy among 10,000 Chinese studying in US And Europe. It also now works with reform element s inside China. National endowment for democracy Annual report 86 14

    # China, 92 NED grants supported ten publications in China that focused on Labor, market economics, democratization movements inside and outside China, democratic process and development of pluralistic and civil Societies. National endowment for dem ocracy annual report 1992 42
    http://www.kimsoft.com/korea/cia-ch.htm

  • I’m Chinese!

    NED Covert Action Cuba, China, Russia, VN
    By R. McGehee, CIABASE, 14 January 1996

    The below posting on the voting in the United Nations to condemn Cuba’s human rights record fits in the worldwide pattern of the U.S. using “human rights abuses” as an excuse for political action operations. Human rights has replaced “Communist Conspiracy,” as the generic catch phrase for U.S. political subversion.

    We note that the National Endowment for Democracy, a U.S. government-funded entity, has assumed many of the politcal action responsibilities of the CIA. In NED’s annual reports it lists extensive human rights organizations it has created and funded — sometimes it funds multiple human rights organizations or activities in one country.

    In A CIABASE update report covering the period from July through December 1995, it was noted that NED was funding political action operations in China, Vietnam and Russia and that these countries had protested NED’s subversive operations — which had used “human rights” guises.

    Some of the entries on NED operations related to CUBA are listed below.

    Cuba, 95-96 61 out of 185 nations voted with u.s. In condemning cuba’s Human rights record – 33 percent. Of the other nations 23 voted against the Resolution and 73 abstained. Us lost by 96 to 61. Same proposal will be Voted on again in next un assembly. Another element noted by observers was The clear alignment between developed and undeveloped nations – the north And the south. Seventy-five percent of the anti-cuban votes came from us Allies or developed areas, but only fifteen percent of the 128 third world Nations did so. Between 1992 and 1995 support for cuba has increased from 17 to 23. Cuban rep. Jose fernandez defended cuba’s clean human rights Record and accused the us govt of moral duplicity in promoting this type of Resolution while denying cuba access to food and medicine. Email jclancy Peg.apc.org 1/12/96

    The national endowment for democracy (ned) is the reagan adm’s efforts to Influence foreign journalists ala the cia in the fifties. The only Difference is that the gvt has found a new way to launder the money. In 9/84 ned gave leonard sussman’s freedom house $200,000. Fh is a Conservative human rights org. To set up a net of democratic opinion Makers…to end the isolation of democratic-minded intellectuals and Journalists in the third world. The idea to send articles to regional Editors on each continent to reprint the article. Ten to 12 articles each Month sent to 350 journalists in 50 countries. Authors of articles Neoconservatives. Articles sent to nicaragua from leiken, arturo cruz and Pedro chamorro. Fh also disseminated an attack on people in jamaica, an Investigation of the far left in australia and a feature on west europe’s Peace groups’ relations with the plo. All of the article on s. Africa have Argued against disinvestment. Articles on afghanistan, tibet, angola, Poland, grenada, ethiopia, the ukraine and cuba have been distributed. Fh Recv an additional $175,000 to operate the exchange. The nation 5/24/86 720

    Cuba, 93-95 Mas canosa of the cuban american national foundation (canf) Was instrumental in pushing reagan adm to create ned. Canf received one of Institution’s first grants. Between 83-88 canf received 390,000 in ned Grants. Ned and usaid programs to bring democracy to cuba – most money for Radio and tv marti and an array of anti-castro groups both inside and Outside of cuba receive ned funds. Ned projects include cuban committee for Human rights whose activity designed at hastening castro’s departure from Power. Center for cuban democracy published newsletter un solo pueblo and Covers travel expenses of cuban opposition leader to international Conferences. Info bureau of human rights movements in cuba maintains Contact with dissident groups in cuba. Free trade union institute funds American institute for free labor development’s programs. Freedom house Distributes books and assistance to cuban opposition groups. U.s. Gvt’s Policy has hindered, not aided democratization process and supports most Extreme and undemocratic elements. Democracy backgrounder 9/95 3-8

    Cuba, 60-93 Article, “the exiles in miami call the shots in washington, Cuba obsession,” by jane franklin. Mentions cuban democracy act, Cuban-american national foundation (canf), led by jorge mas canosa. In 60 Mas was a mere underling in cia plan for bay of pigs invasion. Nexus of Cia, business and politics made mas a valuable instrument for reagan adm. Reagan’s first national security adviser, richard allen, was instrumental In creating cuban-american national foundation, a tax-exempt org. Mas Shaped canf to fit white house agenda and reagan adm appointed him virtual President of cuban exile community. One of mas pet ventures was radio marti Funded by u.s. Gvt. Presidential advisory board for radio and tv marti Headed by mas canosa. A typical message urges cubans to get out pans, take To streets, and demand food, freedom, and coming of mas. Ned contributed Hundreds of thousands to canf front groups-the european coalition for human Rights in cuba for example. Ins in project exodus allows cubans from 3rd Countries to enter u.s. If canf sponsors them. Torricelli, chair of house Subcommittee on hemisphere affairs, collaborated with mas in drafting cuban Democracy act. Act outlaws trade with cuba by u.s. Subsidiaries in 3rd Countries. The progressive 7/93 18-22

    Cuba, 84-87 Radio swan used armando valladares who when released from a Cuban prison swan falsely depicted him as paralyzed with his sponsors Sending him everywhere as a victim of castro tyranny. He then made u.s. Ambassador to u.n. On human rights matters. Ridenour, r. (1991). Back fire: The cia’s biggest burn 35

    Cuba, 84-88 Ned/cuban american national foundation to assist International coalition on human rights in cuba (ichrc). Directed by Armando valladares – rcvd previous ned grants in 84 and 86. Has a net of Citizen committees in europe and latin america. In 3/88 u.n. Human rights Commission directed a u.n. Delegation visit cuba. Ichrc formed work Commission, compiled extensive evidence, and organized an international Delegation to travel to cuba. National endowment for democracy annual Report 87 53,88 37

    Cuba, 91 U.n. Appointed rep to observe human rights in cuba. Cuban amb Says initiative result of u.s.’s aggressive policy. U.n. Human rights Commission in geneva adopted resolution requesting action. Washington post 7/3/91 a23

    Cuba, 92 Cuba’s supreme court upheld death sentences against 2 cuban Exiles. Secretary state baker asked cuba to show mercy. Cuban gvt arrested Thee leading members of the committee for human rights, brothers gustavo And sebastian arcos and jesus yanes pelletier. Washington times 1/17/92 a9

    Cuba, 92 Cuban police seize elizardo sanchez santa cruz head of the cuban Commission for human rights and national reconciliation. Washington times 10/11/92 a9

    Cuba, 93 Ned, cuban committee for human rights received a ned grant. National endowment for democracy newsletter 7/93 10

    Cuba, 94 Grant via freedom house to support human rights and dissident Organizations inside cuba, including the distribution in cuba of books and To provide info to international human rights bodies and the press. National endowment for democracy annual report 94 83

    Cuba, 94 Grant via info bureau of the human rights movement in cuba to Maintain contact with dissident groups in cuba, and to disseminate info on Human rights in cuba. National endowment for democracy annual report 94 83

    Cuba. Armando vallardes, head of the international coalition for human Rights (ichr) in cuba is prohibited by terms of ned grant from lobbying in U.s. Yet in 85 and 86, while in employ of the cuban american national Foundation (canf), vallardes testified before congressional subcommittees And collected signatures on a letter urging president reagan to support the Nicaraguan contras. Resource center groupwatch project

    Cuba, 91 Cuban democratic convergence, a coalition of half a dozen human Rights and dissident organizations, called for democratic elections and Political amnesty just days before communist party officials met in a Convention on 11 oct 91. Washington post 10/8/91 a15

    Cuba. Cuban american national foundation (canf) has used ned grants to Create and finance an international coalition for human rights in cuba. Project is based in madrid and disseminates info about alleged human rights Violations in cuba. Canf selected armando valladares, a poet and reportedly A police thug for batista, who was released from jail in cuba. Resource Center groupwatch project

    Cuba, 84-86 Cuban american national foundation funded by ned to establish Citizen committees in european countries. Some already in sweden and spain – together all will constitute european coalition for human rights in cuba. Armando valladares is prime mover. Some now in france, spain, sweden, Norway and switzerland. Distributed thousands booklets and published books. National endowment for democracy annual report reports 84,85,86

    Cuba, 88 Ned/human rights project to produce film “nobody listened,” Produced by almendros and jorge ulla. Film indicts cuba on human rights. National endowment for democracy annual report 88 38

    Cuba, 89-91 Ned, cuban american national foundation, for continued Assistance to international coalition for human rights in cuba. 1989 $100,000, 1991 $100,000. National endowment for democracy annual report 89 32, 90 39, 91 58-59

    Cuba, 89 Ned, cuban american national foundation, to support an american Counterpart to havana-based cuban committee for human rights to disseminate Human rights info inside cuba and abroad. $20,000. National endowment for Democracy annual report 89 32

    Cuba, 90 Ned, cuban american national foundation, for u.s. Counterpart to Havana based cuban committee for human rights in efforts to compile, Reproduce and disseminate human rights information and ideas. $30,000. National endowment for democracy annual report 90 39

    Cuba, 90 Ned, puebla institute, to enable cuban committee for human Rights (cchr) to continue to focus international attention on cuba’s Political, social and economic realities by sending delegation of cuban Rights activists to meet with broad spectrum of individuals in soviet union To discuss political developments in cuba. $20,000. National endowment for Democracy annual report 90 39

    Cuba, 93 Ned/information bureau for human rights in cuba – to promote Opposition groups – working committee on human rights; association for Continental peace (asopazco), distribution of human rights material Internationally. National endowment for democracy annual report 9/93 69

    Cuba, 93 Ned/iri grant to freedom house and jose marti liberal foundation To assist human rights activists. National endowment for democracy annual Report 9/93 69

    Cuba, 93 Ned/center for cuban democracy grant to quarterly newspaper, un Solo pueblo. With puebla institute and cuban committee for human rights to Disseminate info and publication of bimonthly magazine siglo xxi. Support For el disidente, a monthly news digest of reprints of articles on cuba in International press for dissemination in cuba. [mighty wurlitzer-like op]. Aifld ops. National endowment for democracy annual report 9/93 68-9

    83-94 Ned’s discretionary grants aimed at nondemocratic countries such as Burma, china, cuba, and iraq. Grants small, and go to expatiate orgs to Publish books, newspapers, train journalists, carry out civic education, or Monitor human rights. Ned’s discretionary grants reflect anti-communism – Particularly in asia where burma, china and vietnam get major attention. Ned projects cold war notion of democracy promotion as a crusade, a stark Struggle between good and evil. Ned’s acts generally consistent with other U.s. Foreign policy and former senior gvt officials and other establishment Insiders with conventional view of america’s world role. Foreign policy mag Summer (7) 94 129

    Cuba, 91-92 International coalition for human rights in cuba funded by Ned published material for distribution in cuba. National endowment for Democracy annual report 1992 29

    Latin america, 93 In 93, ned assigned high priorities to cuba and mexico – supporting transition to democracy. In cuba, ned funded human rights Activists and dissidents and media ops. In mexico ned supported opening up Political system through civic education, democratic training schools, open Forums and protection of civil liberties. In peru, ned supported public Education and a new constitution. In argentina, ned supported electoral Reform and training for women activists and a data bank on candidates. National endowment for democracy annual report 9/93 65

    Latin america, 93 Clinton will make promotion of democracy and human Rights main elements of his policy. U.s. Will not seek to overthrow cuba. U.s. Will direct its aid and influence to advance human rights and Strengthen democratic institutions. Washington post 5/4/93 a15

    Cuba, 94-95 Ned grants to cuban committee for human rights, freedom house For a human rights advocacy effort. Information bureau of human rights Movement in cuba to maintain contact with dissident groups. National Endowment for democracy newsletter summer 94-95

    Cuba, 94 Grant via center for cuban democracy for quarterly newsletter, Un solo pueblo, maintain the presence of cuban opposition leaders at International cuban human rights conferences and meetings of international Political leaders; and, public info campaign re democratic reforms. National endowment for democracy annual report 94 82

    Cuba, 94 Grant via cuban committee for human rights for miami-based Affiliate of human rights group in havana; publication of magazine siglo Xxi (twenty-first century); and to inform the media, the u.n. Human rights Commission in geneva, and others about the human rights situation and other Political developments in cuba. National endowment for democracy annual Report 94 82

    Cuba, 94 The national endowment for democracy placed high priority on ops In cuba. Funding concentrated on supporting human rights groups and Dissidents reporting on conditions inside cuba and stimulating International solidarity for dissident movements. Specific acts included a Conference on how other countries transition experiences might apply to Cuba; international dissemination of info and editorials from inside the Island and distribution of info from the outside world; and promotion of Communication between cuban workers and the international labor movement. National endowment for democracy annual report 94 79

  • I’m Chinese!

    Covert Operations and the CIA’s Hidden History in the Philippines

    By Roland G. Simbulan, Convenor/Coordinator, Manila Studies Program
    University of the Philippines
    (Lecture at the University of the Philippines-Manila, Rizal Hall, Padre Faura, Manila, August 18, 2000.)

    For a long time, Manila has been the main station, if not the regional headquarters, of the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) for Southeast Asia. This is perhaps so because the Philippines has always been regarded as a stronghold of US imperial power in Asia. Since the Americanized Filipinos were under the spell of American culture, they were easy to recruit without realizing they were committing treason to their own people and country. And from the beginning of the 20th century to 1992, there were the US military bases, the mighty symbols and infrastructure of American power.

    CIA human intelligence assets in Manila are said to have provided vital information at crucial times. According to declassified documents under the Freedom of Information Act, on Sept. 17, 1972, a CIA asset in the Philippines who was in the inner circle of Marcos informed the CIA station in Manila that Ferdinand Marcos was planning to proclaim martial law on Sept. 21,1972. The CIA station in Manila was also provided in advance a copy of Proclamation 1081–the proclamation that declared martial law in the country–and a list of the individuals whom Marcos planned to arrest and imprison upon the declaration of military rule.

    I would like to mention –without going into any conclusions–that, so accurate was the CIA’s assessment about the Sept. 21, 1972 declaration of martial rule that it boosted the prestige of the CIA station in Manila. Upon his retirement a few years later, Henry Byroade, the American ambassador to Manila when martial law was declared, was honored by the CIA headquarters in Langley,Virginia–a tribute that is said to be very rarely given to any retiring ambassador. Also, in 1982, the CIA was able to verify from a high-ranking Philippine immigration officer the names of the two doctors who visited the Philippines to treat Marcos for kidney failure, giving the CIA a clear picture of Marcos’s health problems.(Richelson, 1999).

    It is important to expose US imperialism’s clandestine apparatus in the Philippines. If the activities of this sinister agency are not meticulously documented, there is a tendency to mythologize, or even Hollywood-ize, its notoriety and crimes against the Filipino people and Philippine national sovereignty. The CIA is the covert overseas intelligence agency of the United States government and is likewise an “action-oriented ” vehicle of American foreign and military policy. The 1975 Church Committee Report of the US congressional investigations into the CIA’s covert activities abroad revealed how countless foreign governments were overthrown by the CIA; how the CIA instigated a military coup d’etat and assassinated foreign political leaders like Chilean President Salvador Allende, who merely tried to safeguard the interests of their own country; and how “special ops” and paramilitary campaigns contributed to the death, directly or indirectly, of millions of people, as a result of those actions.

    The 1974-75 US congressional investigations also uncovered CIA intervention in the domestic politics of target countries–from the overthrow of governments, attempted assassinations, to subsidies and financial support for the media, political parties, trade unions, universities and business associations–all designed “to clandestinely influence foreign governments, events, organizations or persons in support of US foreign policy.” (Robinson, 1996; Richelson,1999). The CIA has gone beyond its original mission of gathering intelligence and was conducting Mafia-type operations not only in its own territory but against foreign governments and their leaders.

    Doing covert action that undermines Philippine national sovereignty and genuine democracy in order to prop up the tiny pro-US oligarchical minority that has cornered most of the wealth in their poor country is what the CIA is all about and is the real reason for its existence. It is no longer just the collection and analysis of foreign intelligence which is officially its mandate under the US National Security Act of 1947 that created the CIA.

    The CIA in the Philippines has engaged in countless covert operations for intervention and dirty tricks particularly in Philippine domestic politics. On top of all this is the US diplomatic mission, especially the political section that is a favorite cover for many CIA operatives. CIA front companies also provide an additional but convenient layer of cover for operatives assigned overseas. In general, wherever you find US big business interests (like Coca-Cola, Ford, Citicorp, United Fruit, Nike, etc.), you also find a very active CIA. But the covers often used are diversified.

    Desmond Fitzgerald, for instance, a former CIA chief of station in Manila was said to have fronted as a legitimate businessman of an American multinational company. Joseph Smith, a top CIA agent assigned to the Philippines in the early 1960s, posed as a “civilian employee” of the Clark Airforce Base’s 13th Air Force Southeast Asia Regional Survey Unit .On the other hand, CIA operative Gabriel Kaplan’s initial cover was really more “civilian”–with the CIA-created Asia Foundation (formerly the Committee for a Free Asia), then later as resident director of another CIA creation, the COMPADRE both of which we shall be dealing with more extensively later.

    On the other hand, CIA operative David Sternberg fronted as a foreign correspondent for an American newspaper based in Boston, the Christian Science Monitor, when he assisted Gabriel Kaplan in managing the presidential campaign of Ramon Magsaysay in the ’50s.

    The Agency’s assets and technical infrastructure in Manila have been drastically affected by the withdrawal of the bases by 1992 because, before this, the CIA operated jointly with the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) major listening posts into most of Indochina and southern China. The joint CIA/DIA structure called the Strategic Warning Staff, is headquartered in the US Department of Defense (Pentagon) and operated a number of similar posts as the one in Manila. The Manila station includes very sizeable logistical capabilities for a wide range of clandestine operations against Asian governments.

    The loss of the bases in the Philippines was a tremendous blow to the CIA’s Asian infrastructure, if not a major setback. From the mid-50s, the US bases in the Philippines served as operational headquarters for “Operation Brotherhood” which operated in Indochina under the direct supervision of the CIA’s Col. Edward Lansdale and Lucien Conien, and it involved several Filipinos who were recruited and trained by the CIA. Lansdale was the classic CIA operative in Southeast Asia who was romanticized in Graham Greene’s novel, The Quiet American. Lansdale was even appointed by former President Ramon Magsaysay as his “military adviser” but was, in fact, his speechwriter as well, who determined Magsaysay’s foreign and military policy. So successful was the CIA in pulling the strings thru Lansdale that in 1954, a high-level US committee reported that, “American policy in Southeast Asia was most effectively represented in the Philippines, where any expanded program of Western influence may best be launched.”

    Examples of such programs were the Freedom Company of the Philippines, Eastern Construction Co. and “Operation Brotherhood,” which provided “a mechanism to permit the deployment of Filipino personnel in other Asian countries, for unconventional operations covertly supported by the Philippines.” (Shalom, 1986). The CIA also actively used Philippine territory, particularly Clark Air Base, for the training and launching of operatives and logistics in the late 1950s, where the US covertly supported dissident Indonesian colonels in the failed armed overthrow of Indonesian President Sukarno. The CIA then established supply, training and logistical bases on several islands in the Philippines, including an airstrip in the Tawi-Tawi Island of Sanga-Sanga. A CIA-owned proprietary company, the Civil Air Transport, was actively used by the CIA from Philippine territory to give direct assistance to Indonesian military rebel groups attempting to overthrow Indonesian President Sukarno in the late 1950s.

    Manila was also the center of operations for the Trans-Asiatic Airlines Inc., a CIA outfit operating along the Burma-China border against the People’s Republic of China. Using the Trans-Asiatic Airlines Inc. as a front company, the CIA recruited for this operation in the early 1950s several Filipino aviators who were World War II veterans, including operatives of the Armed Forces of the Philippines’ Military Intelligence Service (MIS) who were still in active service.

    In his memoirs, former Philippine Ambassador to Burma Narciso G. Reyes narrates that one of these Filipino “undercover” MIS agents posed as the labor attache at the Philippine embassy in Rangoon even before this was formally established. The Filipino CIA undercover agent was also reporting to the American ambassador to Burma from whom he was also getting paid! (Reyes, 1995).

    Side by side with CIA proprietary companies Civil Air Transport, Sea Supply Co. and Western Enterprises Co., the agency used Trans-Asiatic Airlines Inc. in an attempt to invade the People’s Republic of China in the early 1950s, using the mercenary Chinese warlord Gen. Li Mi as leader of the invasion force. After a few skirmishes with the People’s Liberation Army (PLA), Gen. Li Mi later on “retired” and pocketed the US financial and military assistance for an invasion against China and concentrated on the lucrative opium trade along the Burmese-Thai border.

    US military advisers of the Joint US Military Advisory Group (JUSMAG) and the CIA station in Manila designed and led the bloody suppression of the nationalist Hukbong Mapagpalaya ng Bayan (HMB) which was vehemently opposed to the post-war Parity Rights amendment and the onerous military agreements with the United States. The CIA’s success in crushing the peasant-based Huk rebellion in the 1950s made this operation the model for future counterinsurgency operations in Vietnam and Latin America. Colonel Lansdale and his Filipino sidekick, Col. Napoleon Valeriano were later to use their counterguerrilla experience in the Philippines for training covert operatives in Vietnam and in the US-administered School of the Americas, which trained counterguerrilla assassins for Latin America. Thus, the Philippines had become the CIA’s prototype in successful covert operations and psychological warfare.

    After his stint in the Philippines using propaganda, psywar and deception against the Huk movement, Lansdale was then assigned in Vietnam to wage military, political and psychological warfare. It was Lansdale’s view that the tactics that he used to solve the problem in the Philippines were applicable to Vietnam. He was wrong. In 1975, after two decades of protracted warfare, the Vietnamese people defeated the strongest superpower on earth.

    The CIA’s actions and activities in its Manila station have never been limited to information gathering. Information gathering is but a part of an offensive strategy to attack, neutralize and undermine any organization, institution, personality or activity they consider a danger to the stability and power of the United States. The late Senator Claro M. Recto was believed to have been a victim of the CIA’s dirty tricks department because of his staunch crusade against the US military bases in the Philippines. It is now a well-documented fact that General Ralph B. Lovett, then the CIA station chief in Manila and the US ambassador, Admiral Raymond A. Spruance, had discussed a plan to assassinate Recto using a vial of poison. A few years later, Recto was to die mysteriously of heart attack (though he had no known heart ailment) in Rome after an appointment with two Caucasians in business suits. Before this, the CIA had made every effort to assure the defeat of Recto in the 1957 presidential election wherein the CIA manufactured and distributed defective condoms with a label that said, “Courtesy of Claro M. Recto–the People’s Friend.” Could it be that Recto was a victim of the CIA’s covert operations, or what they call “executive action” against those perceived as dangerous enemies of the United States?

    It was also during the time of Recto and the Huks that the CIA covertly sponsored the Security Training Center as a “countersubversion, counterguerrilla and psychological warfare school” on the outskirts of Manila. CIA funds concentrated on the sensitive area of “rural development” and funds were channeled to the National Movement for Free Elections’ (Namfrel) community centers, the Philippine Rural Reconstruction Movement (PRRM) and a rural development project called Committee for Philippine Action in Development, Reconstruction and Education (COMPADRE) thru CIA fronts and conduits like the Catherwood Foundation and the “Committee for a Free Asia (CFA), later renamed the Asia Foundation.” (Shalom, 1986).

    In the late 1980s, the CIA assigned Vietnam veteran U.S. General John Singlaub to organize anti-communist vigilante groups all over the country for mass terror, particularly as part of the Philippine government’s “total war policy” against people’s movements. General Singlaub posed as an American “treasure hunter” and even secured all the necessary official permits for treasure hunting in the Philippines. Another operative active in the “total war” operations in the Philippines was Vietnam counterinsurgency specialist Col. James Rowe, Joint US Military Advisory Group (JUSMAG) adviser, whose cover was blown off when he was ambushed in 1989 by urban guerrillas of the New People’s Army in Timog Avenue, Quezon City. Rowe was clandestinely involved in the organization of anti-communist death squads like Alsa Masa and vigilante groups patterned after “Operation Phoenix” in Vietnam which had the objective of eliminating legal and semi-legal mass activists and their political sympathizers that constituted the political infrastructure of the insurgency movement.

    The CIA lost its huge telecommunications installation at Clark Air Base–the Regional Relay Station when the Philippine Senate rejected on Sept. 16, 1991, the proposed treaty for the bases’ renewal. Before 1970, according to a former CIA operative, the sprawling Subic Naval Base was the site of a China operations group of the CIA and “the agency even constructed 100 expensive modern homes, a large two-story office building and a big warehouse at Subic Bay.” (Smith, 1976)

    There is, however, a vital covert installation that the CIA was able to retain and maintain: the “Regional Service Center” (RSC). Located along Roxas Boulevard in Manila at the Seafront Compound about a mile south from the US Embassy, the RSC fronts as a facility of the United States Information Service (USIS), formerly called the US International Communications Agency. This ultra-modern printing facility functions as a secret CIA propaganda plant. It has the ability to produce large quantities of high-quality color offset magazines, posters, leaflets and the like in at least 14 Asian languages.

    During the Vietnam War, the RSC was ceaselessly involved in economic sabotage against the Democratic Republic of Vietnam (DRV) or North Vietnam. The RSC was involved in counterfeiting North Vietnamese currency which were airdropped all over the DRV to sabotage the economy and weaken the country’s resistance. The CIA’s Technical Services Division maintains close liaison with the RSC, which still actively operates within the Seafront Compound along Roxas Boulevard. The post-Vietnam War and later on, the post-bases era has only increased the importance of Manila as a major listening post and regional headquarters of the Agency.

    A former junior case officer of the CIA, Janine Brookner, who was stationed in Manila described the capital city of the Philippines as “a wild place” for CIA operatives who spent a lot of time in bars, sex shows and brothels. This was because, according to her, the standard CIA procedure for recruiting targets was to “get him drunk, get him laid, and then get him on the Agency’s dole.” Brookner was an attractive but determined blonde who claimed to have developed assets in both the government and the Communist Party during her assignment to the Philippines. Brookner was also a very productive recruiter who, as a handler of important assets and as a CIA case officer, claims to be able to make her targets confess everything. “You take care of them,” Brookner recalls, “and they tell you their fears and nightmares…I’m good at people depending on me.” In fact, her targets, especially high-ranking Philippine government officials, often propositioned her. (Starobin, 1997)

    Cultural Fronts

    The CIA has long utilized in the Philippines sophisticated or subtle means for clandestine propaganda, such as the manipulation of trade unions and cultural organizations, rather than heavy-handed activities such as paramilitary operations, political assassinations and coups as they had done extensively in Africa, Latin America and Vietnam. During my interview in 1996 with Ralph McGehee, a former CIA agent, and other former CIA operatives assigned to the Manila station, I was told that the CIA had many unheralded successes in the Philippines such as the manipulation of the trade union movement through the Asian-American Free Labor Institute (AAFLI) and through funds which were channeled thru the USAID, Asia Foundation and National Endowment for Democracy.

    In a recent article in the Journal of Contemporary Asia, American sociologist James Petras describes how progressive non-government organizations can be neutralized, if not coopted, thru US government, big business-backed funding agencies or CIA fronts and conduits masquerading as foundations. The purpose, according to Petras, is “to mystify and deflect discontent away from direct attacks on the corporate/banking power structure and profits toward local micro-projects …that avoids class analysis of imperialism and capitalist exploitation.” Neo-liberalism today, according to Petras, encourages NGOs to “emphasize projects, not movements; they ‘mobilize’ people to produce at the margins, not to struggle to control the means of production and wealth; they focus on the technical financial aspects of projects not on structural conditions that shape the everyday lives of people.” While using the language of the Left such as “people empowerment,” “gender equality,” “sustainable development” etc., these NGOs funded by USAID, the National Endowment for Democracy (NED), Asia Foundation, etc. have become linked to a framework of collaboration with donors and even with government agencies with whom they have partnerships that subordinate activity to nonconfrontational politics, rather than militant mass mobilization. (Petras, 1999)

    It must be emphasized that the US places high premium on the ideological legitimation of its continuing neo-colonial domination over the Philipines and, as such, depends heavily on US-financed and US-sponsored institutions, especially on the ideological front. Thus, grants are generously poured in by such agencies like USAID, NED, Asia Foundation and the big business-sponsored Ford Foundation. The objective is to constantly lure and lull the masses into the elite-dominated electoral process, thus legitimizing the neo-liberal economic system and its political apparatus, producing a fragile social peace and a “peaceful” mechanism for competition among the Filipino elite and oligarchy. In his book on French colonialism in Algeria titled, The Wretched of the Earth, Frantz Fanon wrote:

    “Colonialism is not satisfied merely with holding a people in itsgrip, and emptying the native’s brain of all form and content.By a kind of perverted logic, it turns to the past of the people, and distorts, disfigures and destroys it.”

    One of the most critical moments of the CIA station in Manila was the immediate post-Marcos years when they tried to dissociate US links with the Marcoses and politically influence the contours of the post-Marcos era. Financial, technical and political support for the pro-US “agents of influence” assured the dominance of pro-US local elites and institutions as a counterweight to the progressive anti-imperialist, anti-Marcos forces that threatened to define and restructure the architecture of the post-Marcos neo-colonial regime.

    USAID was directed to grant the Trade Union Congress of the Philippines (TUCP) with a generous financing so it could formulate a position paper on an economic program anchored on “the partnership between labor and capital.” USAID even temporarily set up an agrarian reform office, working closely at TUCP offices. Political analysts of the CIA and USAID wanted to design an agrarian reform program that would not disrupt the agro-export sector and one which could be synchronized with the counterinsurgency program and defuse peasant unrest. The CIA and US military advisers also wanted a deeper role in the design and command of counterinsurgency. These funds were supplemented by the so-called “democracy promotion” initiatives of the NED which poured in heavy funding for TUCP, Namfrel, the Women’s Movement for the Nurturing of Democracy (KABATID) and the Philippine Chamber of Commerce and Industry (PCCI). The NED gave a total of $9 million from 1984-1990 to these institutions and organizations.

    Following the ouster of Marcos, the US set about to transform the “new” Armed Forces of the Philippines into an effective counterinsurgency force that would integrate military, political, economic and social initiatives, including broad “civic action” campaigns, psychological operations, military aid and training. It was a massive comeback of the low-intensity conflict years of the Magsaysay-Lansdale era! Between 1987-1990, Washington reportedly authorized stepped-up clandestine CIA operations against the Left in the Philippines, including a $10 million allocation to the AFP for enhanced intelligence-gathering operations. There was also an increase in the number of CIA personnel, from 115 to 127, mostly attached as “diplomats” to the US embassy in Manila. (Oltman and Bernstein, 1992)

    In general, US military and economic aid are used quite effectively and they remain key elements of US policy in the Philippines. The CIA station handles political aid and political matters. This means, according to the CIA’s Intelligence Memorandum on the 1965 Philippine presidential elections for instance, assuring that the victorious national candidates who are acceptable to the US should be “western-oriented and pledge to continue close and equitable relations with the US and the West on matters of mutual interest.” (Bonner, 1987) The CIA station also conducts widespread covert operations, among them: stage-managed national elections to assure preferred US outcome; payoffs to government officials under the guise of grants; financing for favored business and civic groups and pro-US propaganda campaigns among the population; the supply of intelligence information on activists and dissidents to the Armed Forces of the Philippines and so on. (Robinson, 1996)

    Among the most prominent CIA fronts in Manila is the Asia Foundation with offices at Magallanes Village, Makati. According to a former US State Department bureaucrat William Blum in a recent book, the “Asia Foundation is the principal CIA front” and funding conduit in Asia. The Asia Foundation funds and supports known anti-communist groups or influential personalities, i.e. academics, journalists, local officials, etc. and institutions. (Blum, 1999) According to the former executive assistant to the CIA’s Deputy Director for Operations Victor Marchetti in his book, The CIA and the Cult of Intelligence, the Asia Foundation had the objective “to disseminate throughout Asia a negative vision of Mainland China, North Vietnam, and North Korea.” (Marchetti and Marks, 1980 edition). New York Times investigative journalist Raymond Bonner has also identified the Asia Foundation as “a CIA creation” and “front” in one of his books, Waltzing with a Dictator: The Marcoses and the Making of American Policy (1987). My interviews with former CIA operatives in the Philippines in 1996 confirm the active use of this foundation for the “Agency.”

    But the most credible and authoritative source that I have come across identifying the Asia Foundation as a CIA front and conduit is Marchetti’s book where the CIA-Asia Foundation link is defined in no uncertain terms:

    “Another organization heavily subsidized by the CIA was the Asia Foundation. Established by the agency (CIA) in 1956, with a carefully chosen board of directors, the foundation was designed to promote academic and private interest in the East. It sponsored scholarly research, supported conferences and symposia, and ran academic exchange programs, a CIA subsidy that reached $88 million dollars a year. While most of the foundation’s activities were legitimate, the CIA also used it…to recruit foreign agents and new officers. Although the foundation often served as a cover for clandestine operations, its main purpose was to promote the spread of ideas which were anti-communist and pro-American–sometimes subtly and stridently…Designed–and justified at budget time–as an overseas propaganda operation, the Asia Foundation also was regularly guilty of propagandizing the American people with agency views on Asia. The Agency’s connection with the Asia Foundation came to light just after the 1967 exposure of CIA subsidies to the (American) National Student Association. The foundation clearly was one of the organizations that the CIA was banned from financing and, under the recommendations of the Katzenbach committee, the decision was made to end CIA funding. A complete cut-off after 1967, however, would have forced the foundation to shut down, so the agency made it the beneficiary of a large ‘severance payment’ in order to give it a couple of years to develop alternative sources of funding. Assuming the CIA has not resumed covert funding, the Asia Foundation has apparently made itself self-sufficient now…. during the 1960s, the CIA developed proprietary companies for use in propaganda operations. These proprietaries are more compact proprietaries and more covert than the now exposed fronts like Asia Foundation and Radio Free Europe.” (Marchetti and Marks, pp.157-158)

    The CIA-linked Asia Foundation has long been active in the Philippines. It has generously funded academic seminars, researches, study tours, and conferences in most of the leading Philippine universities, most especially among many colleagues and programs at the University of the Philippines (UP).

    You name it, they have their fingers stuck into it! Many nongovernment organizations, journalists, local governments and civic organizations have had their projects funded by Asia Foundation. This is what makes it strategic and well-placed, thus naturally, a matter of great concern and alarm to friends and colleagues in both the academe and the NGO sector who may be very upset by this information on the origins and CIA links of the Asia Foundation. But I did not invent this issue about the CIA-created Asia Foundation. I merely documented the previous testimonies from mostly open sources. It is part of the CIA’s history in this country, which I have documented from the accounts of former CIA agents and operatives. Many recipients of Asia Foundation grants as well as the Filipino staff of the Asia Foundation in Manila may not even be aware of its notorious history. But now we know a little better.

    It is important to note that in 1961, the chief of the CIA’s Covert Action Staff wrote that books were “the most important weapon of strategic propaganda.” Tens of thousands of books have been produced, subsidized or sponsored by the CIA and its conduits such as the Asia Foundation in support of US foreign and military policy.

    Project Echelon

    Together with the National Security Agency, the CIA also maintains “Project Echelon,” the most sophisticated and the most technologically advanced eavesdropping system that has ever been devised. Through a relay system of satellites and spook stations in Australia, New Zealand, United Kingdom, Canada and United States, the US intelligence system is able to intercept all telephone, fax, e-mail, Internet and cellphone transmissions worldwide. Its nerve center is located at Fort Meade in Maryland where the NSA maintains its headquarters. This has grave implications for both our public and private security.

    The National Security Agency (NSA) of the United States has developed a global surveillance system, Echelon, which is a powerful electronic net operated by super-computers that intercept, monitor and process all phone, fax, e-mail and modem signals. The European Parliament in a 1998 report entitled, “An Appraisal of Technologies of Political Control” has listed serious concerns and has recommended an intensive investigation of US-NSA operations. The NSA Echelon system provides awesome potential for abuse against civilian targets and governments worldwide, even against allies of the United States.

    It can be recalled that under the 1999 Visiting Forces Agreement (VFA), the coverage for special privileges and criminal immunity includes not only US armed forces personnel but also “civilian personnel who are employed by the US armed forces and who are accompanying the US armed forces.” These US “civilians” include technicians of the secretive US National Security Agency which, during the existence of the US bases here, operated the spy communications facilities at Clark, Subic and Camp John Hay, among others. (Simbulan, 1985) All private citizens’ and government communications are intercepted and monitored by the Echelon System.

    According to Nicky Hager’s book, Secret Power (1986) which deals with the international electronic spy network, the US has not only been using its NSA Echelon system to collect political, military and economic intelligence against its enemies, but it also targets its own allies. According to Hager:

    “…there is extensive interception of the ASEAN countries, including the Philippines….ASEAN meetings receive special attention with both public and private communications of these countries being intercepted to reveal the topics discussed, positions being taken and policy being considered.”

    Through the Visiting Forces Agreement (VFA), the US plans to fully restore its Echelon system in the Philippines which was greatly interrupted by the pullout of US military facilities and bases in 1992. The CIA heavily relies on the Echelon Project for its technologically advanced Signal Intelligence or SIGNIT, which is managed by the US National Security Agency (NSA).

    Conclusion

    Every CIA station is virtually an infrastructure for political, military, cultural and even economic intervention. In the Philippines, the CIA has not only functioned as a listening post but has been actively used to engage in covert operations, sabotage and political intervention to undermine Philippine sovereignty and self-determined national policies. Former CIA operatives in the Philippines confirm the use of official “diplomatic covers,” especially in the political section of the US Embassy where they are given secure communications, protected files and diplomatic immunity. They have also used “non-official covers,” disguised as businessmen in US firms. Covers under the guise of US naval or air force personnel are now minimal after the US bases and military facilities in the Philipines were dismantled. But as we can now see, the CIA has long been operating with virtual impunity and has always gotten away with its deep involvement in Philippine domestic affairs. Shall we allow this continued intervention in Philippine political and economic life?

    Bibliography

    Books

    * Blum, William. Killing Hope: U.S. Military and CIA Interventions Since World War II. Monroe, Maine: Common Courage Press,1995.
    * Hager, Nicky. Secret Power. New Zealand: Craig Porton Publishing, 1996.
    * McGehee, Ralph. Deadly Deceits: My 25 years in the CIA. New York: Sheridan Square Publications, 1983.
    * Reyes, Narciso G. Memories of Diplomacy:A Life in the Philippine Foreign Service. Pasig City: Anvil Publishing Inc.,1995.
    * Richelson, Jeffrey T. The US Intelligence Community. Boulder, Colorado: Westview Press, 1999.
    * Robinson, William I. Promoting Polyarchy: Globalization, US Intervention and Hegemony. Great Britain: Cambridge University Press, 1996.
    * Shalom, Stephen. The United States and the Philippines: A Study of Neo-colonialism. Quezon City: New Day Publishers, 1986.
    * Simbulan, Roland. The Bases of Our Insecurity: A Study of the US Military Bases in the Philippines. Quezon City: Balai Foundation, 1983.
    * Smith, Joseph Burkholder. Portrait of a Cold Warrior. Toronto: Longman Canada, Ltd., 1976.

    Articles

    * Petras ,James. “NGOs in the Service of Imperialism,” Journal of Contemporary Asia. Vol. 29, No. 4 (1999).
    * Oltman J. and Bernstein, R. “Counter-insurgency in the Philippines,” Covert Action Information Bulletin. No. 4, 1992, pp. 18-21
    * Starobin, Paul. “Agent Provocateur,” George Magazine. Oct. 1997, pp.86-91.

    Interviews

    * Ralph McGehee, former CIA operative assigned to the Philippines, Vietnam and Thailand; Herndon, Virginia, April-May 1996.
    * Interviews with former CIA operatives in the Philippines at McLean and Herndon,Virginia, April-May 1996.

  • I’m Chinese!

    U.S. Imperialism Targets China

    By NAT WEINSTEIN

    The most important single event that crashed onto the center stage of world politics last month was the bombing of the Chinese embassy in Belgrade. How does that bizarre incident-which the U.S. bipartisan capitalist government is finding so hard to explain-fit into the total picture of the U.S.-NATO war on Yugoslavia?

    U.S. weapons manufacturers boast that their missiles are able to zero in on a single building in a large city with bulls-eye accuracy. This gives substance to the widespread belief in Belgrade reported elsewhere in this newspaper that there are very few so-called “errant bombs.”

    How this “accident” was explained away by the highest U.S. military and political spokespersons was more than incredible, it was tantamount to an admission that it was no accident.

    The explanation baldly asserted by the military and political spokespersons for the U.S. government, that they had “mistakenly” used a seven-year-old map of Belgrade even challenged the credulity of a retired American general interviewed by National Public Radio.

    This general, we were unable to catch his name, was interviewed shortly after the embassy bombing. He declared the official explanation to be ludicrously unbelievable to anyone who had the slightest knowledge of the extensive information-gathering apparatus available to the CIA and other American intelligence agencies and how they function.

    The NATO command centers for bombing raids are equipped with computerized maps projected on large screens, which are capable of easy updating with the flick of an electronic switch. It is inconceivable that such maps are not updated after each night’s raids so that new targets can be selected for the next night’s raids.

    In this light, the notion that the “mistake” was caused by an outdated map is one of the more absurdly unbelievable lies yet to have come off the moving lips of President Clinton.

    The Yugoslav people, who surely are in an excellent position, based on bitter experience, to make an intelligent assessment of what is intentional and what is accidental didn’t buy it. And the spontaneous outpouring of hundreds of thousands of ordinary Chinese working people and students on the first two days after the destruction of their embassy was testimony that they didn’t buy Clinton’s alibi either.

    But the tell-tale signs were evident that the Chinese government naturally took advantage of imperialism’s incredible “mistake” to advance their own narrow goals by orchestrating a couple more days of not-so-spontaneous demonstrations. However, it’s clear that they were swept along by the mass outrage, and couldn’t stop the demonstrations had they tried.

    The demonstrations were reportedly on the scale of those mounted in the streets of Beijing, Shanghai, and other Chinese cities against the Stalinist regime’s bloody suppression of Tiananmen students 10 years ago. Neither was the connection between the two events lost on the Chinese Stalinists. Thus, fearful of it turning against them, they shut it off as soon as they could.

    In any event, the mass media in this country was compelled to take as good coin the near-universal belief held by Chinese protesters that the embassy bombing was no accident.

    The embassy bombing also contributed significantly to undermining global support for the war on Yugoslavia. It crystallized mass indignation at the ever-increasing rate of so-called collateral civilian deaths and massive destruction and has dealt Clinton and company a major setback.

    Moreover, it undercuts one of American capitalism’s favorite means for blackmailing Chinese Stalinism into granting further major concessions to U.S. capitalist penetration into the Chinese economy with its endlessly repeated charge of human rights abuses in China. It’s a classic case of the pot denouncing the kettle for being black.

    Chinese spies nab U.S. military secrets

    Even more ridiculous, but serving exactly the same purpose-of smearing the Chinese regime-is the propaganda barrage against its alleged theft of secret U.S. nuclear and missile technology.

    But what’s so shocking about that? America’s closest allies, the Israelis and the British for instance, have been caught doing exactly the same thing. The alleged shock and outrage expressed by America’s capitalist politicians at the revelation that China hires spies to steal secrets is pure hogwash designed to wrench more economic concessions from China than it has already granted!

    The key spy in question, Wen Ho Lee, a Taiwanese nuclear weapons scientist at Los Alamos National Laboratory, was accused of sending stolen atomic secrets to the Chinese Communists. Inexplicably, however, although he has been fired from his job, he has still not been indicted for any crime.

    But even more incredible is the fact that before this “spy” was discovered, a bipartisan Congressional committee found that two American aerospace corporations, Hughes Electronics and Loral Space and Communications, had “improperly advised” the Chinese on rocket designs in the mid-1990s. They too remain unindicted although unlike poor Mr. Lee, they admitted having actually handed over military secrets to the Chinese.

    Worse yet, while they never charged Mr. Lee with doing it for money, the two American corporations did it exactly for that reason.

    These corporations had hired Chinese rocket companies to build rockets to lift U.S. commercial satellites into orbit. Why? Because the Chinese could do it cheaper, leaving higher profits for the two aerospace companies.

    But when a couple of Chinese rockets exploded, destroying the very expensive satellites owned by the U.S. corporations, the latter were authorized by the U.S. Secretary of Commerce to hand over to the Chinese the “military secrets” they needed to prevent such accidents and thus avoid any further such losses.

    It’s hard to match such hypocrisy. The real reason for the media campaign against China has nothing to do with military secrets. It has to do with American imperialism’s desperate need to get China to open up its economic infrastructure to a gradual takeover by American corporations, banks, and other financial institutions.

    It all boils down to profits

    The Chinese Stalinist regime, like their counterparts in eastern Europe and Asia, is deeply committed to their goal of restoring capitalism in China and transforming themselves from a parasitic caste into a class with a legal right-something they presently do not have-to own the wealth they siphon off from state-owned industry and from the country’s natural resources.

    That’s a main reason why the bureaucratic castes in these degenerating workers states are likened to the robber barons of 19th century America and it is why they so desperately seek to become a property owning class.

    After all, the Chinese masses can take their property back any time they get it into their collective heads that they have been and are getting robbed blind.

    Moreover, it cannot be a bloody conflict since, unlike in capitalist countries in which the capitalist classes have a significant measure of support in the most prosperous layers of the petty bourgeoisie (i.e., small capitalists), the objective basis for such support for capitalism in the degenerating workers states is virtually insignificant.

    China, of all the bureaucratized and degenerating workers states, has been able to make the greatest progress toward capitalist restoration. But unlike the former Soviet bloc countries, which have generally suffered a large decline in industrial production, China has expanded its productive capacity significantly. That’s largely because China was the most undeveloped of those countries that carried through a socialist revolution.

    But like its counterparts in Europe, the Chinese bureaucracy and their allied neo-capitalist entrepreneurs are getting rich and morphing into capitalists while the great majority in China, as in Eastern Europe, are suffering a decline in their living standards.

    It’s no surprise that all the bureaucratized workers states attempting to metamorphose into market-driven capitalist states are required to give away control over their economy, bit by bit and chunk by chunk, in order to gain entry into the world capitalist market and ultimately make the transition to capitalism.

    But Chinese Stalinists, like their counterparts in Eastern Europe, know that every concession they make brings them a step closer to coming under the complete domination of world imperialism. That’s why they must trade away, little by little, control over their economy in exchange for access to world trade on capitalist terms.

    Sooner or later, they know, their economies will come under imperialist control, or they will be wrecked, as has already happened most decisively in Russia.

    Just think of what will happen to these states in flux between capitalism and socialism as well as all the weaker economies of the world when the currently deepening economic crisis breaks down into a global depression!

    The parasitic Stalinist ruling castes are swept along their hopeless trajectory because of what they are-an entirely self-serving privileged bureaucratic elite seeking to become independent of the constraints their social system imposes on their privileges.

    But they are caught between a rock and a hard place. In order to be free of these constraints, the Chinese bureaucracy must buy their freedom by selling their country and its 1.1 billion inhabitants bit by bit into the slavery of imperialist capital-that is, toward becoming not a powerful and independent class of Chinese capitalists but essentially a neo-colonial class of compradors. That is, they can only become small-time capitalists completely dependent on imperialist capital.

    On the other side of this equation we see what appears to be a schizophrenic alternation by Clinton and his bipartisan cohorts between the wooing and the bashing of China.

    This strange, crazy dance between portraying China as a friendly and welcome trading partner one day, and a deadly enemy the next, however, reflects the fundamental fact that despite their best intentions, both bureaucrats and capitalists are based on social systems that cannot peacefully coexist except for brief historical moments and not without sharp confrontations.

    But there is another factor of potentially far greater force in the equation represented by these mutually incompatible social systems. And that is another far more sharply opposed conflict of interests between the working class in these degenerating workers states and the bosses and bureaucrats inside and outside the countries in which they live.

    And then there is the working class in the world’s capitalist countries, whose class interests are similarly counterposed to that of the world’s capitalist class. And the fact should also be obvious that the class interests of workers everywhere are essentially identical.

    So far, the death agony of world capitalism, which began almost exactly 100 years ago, has mostly taken the form of uninterrupted wars and preparations for war, and has only been punctuated by colonial and socialist revolutions.

    The pace of war has been accelerating as the global capitalist economy sinks deeper into economic crisis. Indications are that all these manifestations of a dying social order-the endlessly alternating sequence of economic and military crises-are converging and coming to a head.

    The only alternatives before the human race today are world socialism or capitalist barbarism. And the barbarism Karl Marx warned of 150 years ago is not somewhere in the future, it is now!

    But there is no cause for pessimism. The world working class and its natural allies, all those victimized by the profit system and its wars, have shown that they have the power to change the world. The challenge, the necessity, the opportunity to do just that is before us. It can be done and it will be done!

  • Clavos

    What’s wrong, IC? You worried, now that Fidel is finally kicking the bucket?

    Is that why you feed us all this bullshit about cuba that’s supposedly writen by an American? An American who uses incorrect English syntax?

    And where does a stockbroker suddenly come up with a whole bunch of Chicom propaganda. Huh, Mr. government agent?

    [Edited]

    HP.

  • http://alienboysworld.blogspot.com Christopher Rose

    The two html errors were made by David Nalle, who is also responsible for demonstrating the perfect shuttering of his closed mind as I do not share the views he, not for the first time, has either dogmatically or deliberately wrongly attributed to me.

    For one last time Dave, I apply the comments policy that the owners of this site came up with. If you have any problem with the policy, you need to take it up with them and stop demonstrating that your brain is as rusted by dogma as those you are doing a fairly decent job of rebutting above by picking on me.

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    Aw Christopher, you know I just like to get in the occasional jab at you and your thankless job.

    It’s also very frustrating to not really get a full feeling for just how far the chinese shills are willing to go in their comments. The deleted insults help put their other statements in context.

    Plus he was using the comment policy to advance his ludicrous argument, so I was obligated to say something about it.

    Dave

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    And now we see the tactics of desperation. When you’ve lost the argument make sure no one notices by barraging the page with huge, canned, off-topic propaganda articles so people lose interest and stop paying attention to your embarassment.

    Dave

  • Handsome Chinese

    I am really impressed with Nancy’s descriptions and comments on China. (I have stopped following this thread for two days.) It’s great to have a lovely American lady sharing her balanced views about China and Chinese. She will definitely be loved by many (1) Chinese in Mainland China, and (2) Chinese in Malaysia.

    It’s good to highlight both positive and negative aspects of China. People will trust you more.

    Nancy, don’t forget to come and enjoy Chinese cuisines in Malaysia as well. They are unique and extremely delicious in their own ways.

  • Handsome Chinese

    As a South-east Asian Chinese, I enjoy exposing myself to both American/Western and Chinese/Oriental cultures. Nancy reminds us that life would be really exciting if we could shift alternately between American and Chinese lifestyles, cultures, cuisines, games, literatures, ways of socialisation, and philosophical values. Our life would be richer and more enjoyable if we could do that as often as possible.

  • Handsome Chinese

    Hey, IC, you are really the Champion Writer. You have remained tough while fighting against so many aggressors/web soldiers. Anyway, please make your messages concise. A short message would be more effective.

  • Handsome Chinese (HC)

    Hey, Ruvy, do you know why your father told you that Chinese might be a threat one day. (He was mistaken.) First, it is because Chinese have a long history, a great culture, and lots of ancient and modern writings which can make it possible for them to have access to information needed to solve problems in numerous different situations. (You can’t learn them unless you learn the Chinese language first. They can’t been translated into English with precision. I am a linguist.)

    Second, Chinese are extremely intellingent (the average IQ score being 105 – much higher than that of Caucasians).

    Third, it is because Chinese are very practical (realistic) and extremely diligent. (That’s why Westerners want to invest in China and Southeast Asian countries with large Chinese populations.)

    Don’t be jealous of Chinese. Once you learn the Chinese language, they will be worried about you.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    HC,

    Please do not speculate on what you cannot know. My father, z”l, explained the danger that China presented to the world within the context of Jewish culture, which like Chinese culture, is one that you cannnot understand or appreciate in translation.

    In essence, the threat China presents is that of a huge power capable of overturning the world order. The Jewish veterans of the Russo-Japanese War of 1904-5 explained this to my father (who was a young child), who then explained it to me. Events, and many of the comments by people identifying thmeselves as being from the PRC on this article, have borne out this description.

    From my own studies of linguistics, I understand that there are two big obstacles in the way of a western student of Chinese. One is the tonal system that is used to multiply the meanings of the syllables in the various Chinese languages. The second is the system of pictographs that Chinese people use for depicting words. The various Chinese languages, from what I understand, put a sentence together much the same way English does, with one word serving several roles in grammar.

    But what can be difficult for the westerner is how a Chinese will put together ideas to create a different idea. I think a good example is the Chinese name for the United States. It has nothing at all to do with either unity or with states, but conveys what this country means to people who are Chinese.

    In any event, HC, you had better start worrying. There is a whole generation of Australians who are learning Chinese as youngsters. And once they do, they will be the mediators of your culture to the rest of us.

  • I’m Chinese

    Dave

    You do not have basic training in modern economics! The growth of economy is not BY the improvement of productivity. The improvement of productivity is the symbol of economic growth. It is the policies that help the economy grow or fall! Let me teach you some basic development economics. The African and Latin economies following the Western economic doctrine all find themselves in slumping economy and rising foreign debts! The Chinese economy, on the contrary, is so robust that for two decades it grows above 8% a year. The stress on the cooperation between the public and private sectors, as now known as “the Beijing consensus”, is the backbone of the Chinese economic miracle the world has ever to see. And now the African and Latin economies are turning from your doctrines to our experiences! That will break your American rule over these countries because people there no longer believe your way is the only and right way. That is why America is crying for Chinese penetration in Africa and Latin America!

    [Personal attack deleted]

    [As you seem determined to ignore my friendly advice to stick to the issues and don’t make cheap personal attacks, you are leaving me with very little option but to consider banning you completely. It’s not something I want to do but I will if I see one more ad hominem remark from you. Is that clear enough for you? Comments Editor]

  • I’m Chinese

    why my posts are deleted? Is this the free America?

  • I’m Chinese

    Dave, the free warrior, stand out for my rights of free expression. My posts were deleted, are you behind it? If not, defend my right of free expression in your free America!

    [Dave has already defended you. I’m the one you need to worry about and I’m not American… Comments Editor]

  • I’m Chinese

    It is just a joke of free expression in America! My posts of challenging Dave and Clavos were deleted! Do not boast your sucking freedm any more! I had personal experience about it now! It is NOT free at all!!

  • I’m Chinese

    [Dave has already defended you. I’m the one you need to worry about and I’m not American… Comments Editor]

    So the American plays the good guy and the non American play the bad guy? What a good play, just as good as a Hollywood movie! Now I see the true meaning of American freedom!

  • I’m Chinese

    HaHa, I succeeded in finding the limits of American freedom of expression. If you can not tolerate my comments, how can you really tolerate different religions, political goals, and races! It is just lies that America is most free country!

  • http://alienboysworld.blogspot.com Christopher Rose

    Get down off your pomposity will you? As far as I can tell you are only seeing what you want to see, although, if it is any consolation, David would almost certainly agree with you as he doesn’t agree with the site’s comments policy either. Lucky me, huh?

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    It’s not the sites’ policy…it’s the comment editor that most people don’t agree with…of course…this is just my not so humble opinion…freakin’ Europeans!

  • I’m Chinese

    #643
    It is a very funny trick to have one to be the bad guy and others be the good guys. We Chinese play these political tricks almost everyday. Even 7-year Chinese kid will see you guys are on the same side.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Wait a minute here…you think DN and CR are on the same side? Must be really good drugs over there in China!

  • http://alienboysworld.blogspot.com Christopher Rose

    That’s total bollocks, Andy, as you are surely well aware. If not you can join Mr Nalle and our anonymous Chinese friend in re-reading the Blogcritics Comments Policy. I just have the daily joy of playing referee in the sandpit as you all toss out the toys…

  • I’m Chinese

    G! I just heard the new about an Iranian passenger plane on fire mysteriously! You Americans are really tough and rough cowboys! Only 1 day after the deadline expired on the Uranium resolution!

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Hello, I’m Chinese!

    Blog Critics is based in America and a lot of its writers are Americans – but many are British, Canadian, Indian, Pakistani or Australian (if I’ve left out anybody, pipe up!). And there is one Israeli – me.

    The comments editor whose fine judgment provides you with [comment deleted] here and again is a fellow who writes out of Spain and his perception of what constitutes freedom of speech is very different from that of your typical American…

    So in truth, this is in international on-line magazine.

    Welcome to the English speaking world, IC. You finally made me smile…

    Shabbat Shalom,
    Reuven

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Sometimes…it’s really easy to push your buttons Chris!

    If I had your job…I would have stayed anonomous! But then again…I wouldn’t want your job…

  • http://alienboysworld.blogspot.com Christopher Rose

    Ruvy, I’m really getting hacked off with your continual misrepresentation of my views. Is it because I have no respect for your delusional religious fantasies?

    That might explain why, on another thread here, you once again wilfully distorted the very little you know of my views. You also said you were man enough to apologise when you are wrong, although you haven’t actually done it yet.

    Finally, as you, like Messrs. Marsh and Nalle, are well aware, I police the comments policy because that is part of my role here on Blogcritics but I didn’t draw it up in the first place. You don’t actually know what my views on freedom of speech are, so please don’t try to speak for me on that or, indeed, any other topic.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    I think he does it ’cause he likes it…not ’cause it’s his job!

  • Clavos

    I think you’re right, Andy. I bit touchy this PM, aren’t we, Mr. Rose?

    Go have a nice cuppa–you’ll feel better.

  • I’m Chinese

    I respect Europeans. When I talk to them , I will be polite and measured, also when I talk to educated nice Americans like Nancy, who loves her country and also has a balanced view on all things, a remarkable woman. But to those cowboy Americans like Clavos and Dave, speaking polite and measured will be seen as weak and eatable. Americans like them did not listen to Chinese warning of not crossing the 38th line. After they received a hard punch on the nose they knew we Chinese meant business. So they behaved well in the Vietnam war, never trying to send ground troops north of the 17th line. The Chinese saying” when you talk to a human, speak the human language, but when you talk to the devil, speak in the devil language”. I use tough and rough language to Dave and Clavos, who only understand that. But to others, I will be nice and easy.

  • Clavos

    AAwww, you’re such a nice reasonable, lovable little teddy bear of a man, IC. Cute–like a scorpion.

  • I’m Chinese

    I dare you two guys do not repeat the following sentence, even if you claim you enjoy unparallel freedom of speeach in the world:
    “I , Dave , hate Chinks in the US. If Bush does not expel these Chinks out of US, I will hijack a Chink airliner full of Chinks and use it as a bomb to demolish the Chink embassy in Washington!”

    “I , Clavos , hate Chinks in the US. If Bush does not expel these Chinks out of US, I will hijack a Chink airliner full of Chinks and use it as a bomb to demolish the Chink embassy in Washington!”

    I bet 1000 US dollars for each and every of you two guys for not daring to repeat the said sentences.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    IC – they’re Americans…not Muslims!

  • I’m Chinese

    Andy, I just want to see if they dare say that! Freedom of expression in America? I guess these guys do not believe it themselves!

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    You can say it in America…just not at the airport!

  • I’m Chinese

    If that’s too Muslim, how about this. I dare Dave and Clavos do not repeat the following sentence:

    “I , Dave , hate George W. Bush. I’m going to build a 50-pound bomb and use a remote controlled pick-up to blow that SOB next month he visits my city.”

    “I , Clavos, hate George W. Bush. I’m going to build a 50-pound bomb and use a remote controlled pick-up to blow that SOB next month he visits my city!”

    Does it sound more American? Remote controlled pick-up, so American!

  • I’m Chinese

    To #659
    Andy, I love you, you are so humorous

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    actually…the really crazy Americans prefer medium sized Ryder rental trucks…but I digress…

  • I’m Chinese

    I just want to make the point you can not say anything you want, even in America!

  • I’m Chinese

    The myth of unlimited free expression is busted! Dave and Clavos backed off! they are afraid of FBI and Homeland Security agents calling them for that. And their bank accounts may get frozen for the possible terrorist attack on the President.

  • I’m Chinese

    So, Dave and Clavos, you are also living in a police state as you claim I do! hahaha, you lovely boys!I wish you guys a good weekend! It seems I will save my 2000 us dollars for now.

  • I’m Chinese

    Dave and Clavos, where are ya? Come out for the easy bucks! come on!

  • I’m Chinese

    I believe now the red lights in the FBI and Homeland Security monitoring rooms are blinking crazily!” Terror attack threats detected!Terror attack threats detected! Repeat, this is no drill.Code red, code red!” And police cars are swarming into Dave and Clavos’s neighborhood. SWAT quickly surrounds the house and smoking grenades are thrown into the house through the windows! Soon two guys are taken out of the house with hands cuffed behind. This is the price of free speech on the Internet in America!

  • I’m Chinese

    hehe, no one dares to repond to that. Come on, Dave and Clavos, where is your courage and American freedom of speech? Not even dare to repeat a simple sentence? This is noon, FBI’s working, they are wating, just as I do.Come repeeat that sentence, is that plain English? Do you guys read in English? You do not need to type, you just copy and stick it.It is so simple!
    Come on, I’m waiting for you guys to do it!

  • I’m Chinese

    So, Dave and Clavos, are you afraid of persecutions in America for that?

  • I’m Chinese

    you guys seem smart to accept my humiliation here rather than being persecuted by American government.

  • I’m Chinese

    Dave and Clavos, admit total defeat and accept humiliation in public? Good for you. I’ll spare you this time.

  • MCH

    They say everyone has an identical twin somewhere…

    …Dave Nalle, meet I’m Chinese…I’m Chinese, this is Dave Nalle.

  • I’m Chinese

    MCH
    Come on, buddy, I’m far more young and smart than that old wood.

  • I’m Chinese

    MCH
    I set Dave up and he did not foresee that. I just kept pushing him repeat how free America is and how bad China is so that he has no room to back off. He was pushed to the corner by himself and I have been waiting for the time to say the sentence for a while. Now he was totally trapped by himself. To play tricks, he is far youger than I am.

  • I’m Chinese

    I posted these aritcles, at one hand to show others reaing this thread some information one might be unaware of, and at the other hand to make Dave think I ran out of words. He thought he won this. The sudden strike will get the man in coma for a while. Now he is pulling his hair to find a way to get out of this. And I also expect this humiliation will have effect on his emotion, and disrupt his family life and work.

  • I’m Chinese

    I chose now to fight back because now is US day time when the reading rate is highest. Humiliate Dave in front more people makes it funnier. All is doing stock. You just choose the right stuff and the right timing, and booom!There is profit!

  • I’m Chinese

    Dave, I am teaching you how to play tricks on people, how to fuck people’s mind. pay real attention and behave yourself!

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    IC, I’m not interested in fucking with peoples minds. I’m interested in intellectually stimulating and semi-useful exchange of ideas. You’re not exactly on the same wavelength.

    As for your claims about freedom of speech in the US, we do indeed draw the line at threatening to kill people. Gee, we’re so oppressed.

    From what I can tell a good 80% of what you think is going on in this thread is entirely in your head and I really can’t help you with that.

    BTW, whatever happened to your response to Clavos earlier request for some honest assessment of the shortcomings of Chinese government or society. Fine place though it is, surely it’s not perfect – share your suggestions for improvements.

    Dave

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Dave – that would be dissention…don’t they throw people in prison in china for that?

  • I’m Chinese

    Dave
    Before you preach me on democracy, show me first what democracy is in your heavenly free America. Please repeat the following sentence
    “I , Dave Nalle , hate George W. Bush. I’m going to build a 50-pound bomb and use a remote controlled pick-up to blow that SOB next month he visits my city.”

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    But IC, I don’t hate GWB and I’m not planning to bomb anything. Why would I say such a thing?

    And do you not get the dichotomy? You’re afrad to say anything no matter how trivial that might be criticism of your government, but the only way you can think to get us in trouble is to prompt us to threaten to murder people. Do you not get it? Your government thinks that harmless criticism is as bad as we think murder is.

    As for democracy, it’s mob rule and it’s overrated. Thankfully we don’t live in a democracy here in America, we live in a Federal Republic.

    Dave

  • I’m Chinese

    Come on Dave,give me an idea of free speech. Just do it to show me what will happen to you, OK? To see is to believe, and I have the FBI phone number ready and I will call them to see that after you post it. Dare not?

  • I’m Chinese

    And give me your bank account and I will wire you 1000 US dollars from Hongkong and make it look real. You have democracy and justice there, a patriot like you won’t be afraid of these, will you?

  • I’m Chinese

    And I also have Chinese friends working in Yemen and Saudi Arab, perhaps it’s better to wire the money to you from there?

  • I’m Chinese

    Better using some Arbian names to wire money to you?

  • I’m Chinese

    Dave, I’m desperate in learning democracy and free speech lessons from you. I’m in DESPERATION like you said!

  • I’m Chinese

    Tp make this experiement more real, I will talk to some friends to see if we can increase the amount of money so that the three-letter agencies will really get interested in you!

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    IC, you seem to think that I’m somehow all for the heightened security measures that have come since 9/11. The country has had to make some uncomfortable compromises including idiocy like the Patriot act. But unlike China we don’t shut down mosques and stop people from even holding religious services in private residences. Things haven’t gone that far.

    Dave

  • I’m Chinese

    Dave, be cooperative! You are doing a great job, teaching me democracy and freedom! It is worth it! Think about it, you will show with your personal experience how free America is!

  • I’m Chinese

    Dave, just stop the preaches and craps,Say the sentence I printed and I will wait to believe what you say about America

  • I’m Chinese

    Dave, you will be proud to tell your kids that you use your own body to prove America is free! Say the sentence loud and clear in the city hall and make sure people hear that! Come on, you are the defender of American democracy and freedom of speech!

  • I’m Chinese

    Better ask your wife or friends video the process and teach me about your freedom. Don’t be a coward!

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    Never use one response when you can use three instead, eh?

    IC if I had serious issues with our government which could not be addressed through the existing system, then I would indeed take violent action, but if I were to do that I wouldn’t do it alone and I certainly wouldn’t announce it in an online discussion.

    So how do you plan on overthrowing the Chinese government?

    Dave

  • I’m Chinese

    If George W Bush is too hard a name to say, say any name of importance instead, like Chinney, Rice, or Clinton. Just make sure the name draw attention!

  • I’m Chinese

    Dave, show your courage of testing your democracy and freedom. The world is watching you. People from “non-democratic nations” are eagerly expecting you to test the greatness of your verbally great free state

  • I’m Chinese

    Dave,doing that you will become a celebrity! you will be on TV and great money will come to you! It is worth the risk! Maybe the 60-minutes new magazine will do you an interview, even Wallace himself!

  • I’m Chinese

    And I will ask for 50% of the money because I came up with this idea! Deal?

  • I’m Chinese

    But if you go to prison, I will share no responsibility!It’s your call, Dave!

  • I’m Chinese

    But either way your name will be remembered in history! people will talk about you for some time! It’s better than being a series killer, right?

  • I’m Chinese

    Choose a state where death penalty is cancelled to do that, to minimize the risk

  • I’m Chinese

    Texas is not a good choice!

  • I’m Chinese

    You do the talking and we wire you money from some Muslim countries and make sure 3-letter agencies get really interested. After years of investigation with you behind bars, you are declared clean. Then I will believe America is really free.

  • I’m Chinese

    Then you sell your story to the media, and we split the money and represent you in Chinese speaking economies.Deal?

  • I’m Chinese

    Dave, this is a very good business plan. And it also serves your political belief! One must fight for what he believes in, right? Dave, the American Democracy needs you now! Do something! Think of it as an investment! you have to put something in it before you can profit! The more you put in, the more you will get for return! Believe me, I’m a good stock trader, I can smell profit! I believe you are just a good stock!

  • I’m Chinese

    We can then make a movie. How about ask Spielburg to direct it? Who do you prefer to be you in the movie? Brat Pitt? Tom Cruise? Or Cage? I want my youger brother to be me in the movie! And do you have any idea about the title of the movie? When you get the money, where do you want to spend the rest of your life?

  • I’m Chinese

    Dave, be creative! Business is No.1 to me. I don’t hate you, I came up with this idea which can serve both of us and I really want to do this business.

  • I’m Chinese

    Even if Dave is too scared to carry this business plan, I’ll sue anyone who steal my plan and get rich. I have screen printed this post and I hope Blogcritics will testify the originality of this business plan should I sue any bastard for this.

  • Nancy

    IC, I’M the one that always wants to blow up Bush, or try him for treason to the people of the US, and then hang him by his own guts from the trees on the mall as a warning to others. Sorry if that disillusions you of my seeming civilized nature. However, much as I may wish it would happen, I certainly wouldn’t pick up a gun & go do it, because it is the place of the government – the law – to do this, not me. So, as virulently as I despise the current administration and congress, they have nothing to fear from my ranting, because like most Americans, I wouldn’t resort to “rough & tough” tactics that break the law. And I haven’t been arrested, either. Yet. Altho I wouldn’t be surprised to find the NSA/FBI has a file on me. But that’s the great thing about America: I can blow hot air & publicly despise & curse Bush all I want, and I’m allowed. In fact, as someone else pointed out, it’s my DUTY as a citizen to criticize the government. Way, way back, when I was in school, there was a saying we all grew up with, “Question Authority”. It seems to have disappeared in the last few generations here in the US, but people of my age cohort, at least, still have no hesitation in standing up to someone like Cheney or Bush & spitting in their eyes, figuratively or literally.

    Anyway, thank you both, IC & HC for the kind invite to China/Malaysia. While I personally do not approve the current Chinese administration any more than I do my own, I deeply admire the art & culture of China (and the FOOD!). Personally, I also very much enjoy the few movies we’re finally getting in the west that are Chinese-oriented, like “Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon”, or other Ang Lee films like “The Wedding Banquet” or “Eat Drink Man Woman”, which feature the Chinese point of view. Alas, there are still too few of them. I do wish you’d stop accusing us of blowing up airplanes, etc. because I can assure you, you sound like a very immature nutcase when you say stuff like that, and it only makes talking to you (or others) difficult. Besides, why should Dave or Andy or anyone else say stuff about blowing up innocent people? Be aware, that sort of comment is a deep insult, because Americans, having lived thru 9/11, are very, Very, VERY sensitive to anything having to do with terrorist type actions like that. It really isn’t anything you should make fun of, or mention to Americans, even in jest.

  • Dean

    Dave says:

    “I’m interested in intellectually stimulating and semi-useful exchange of ideas.

    Socialists need not apply.

  • Clavos

    Thought you weren’t a socialist, Dean?

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    hought you weren’t a socialist, Dean?

    Now where on earth would you pick up a delusional idea like that.

    As for socialists participating in a good discussion, that’s fine with me. They usually run out of sensible things to contribute pretty fast, just like other religious extremists.

    Dave

  • Dean

    My business associates say I am a dirty, rotten, filthy capitalist dog.

    My wife thinks I am a humanist.

    But I’m always interested in intellectually stimulating and semi-useful exchange of ideas — even wirh socialists.

    How about you?

  • Dean

    I try to avoid extremists like Dave.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    IC, I can’t be on the web 24/7 like you because I don’t have a government security agency paying me to shill for them. So do us all a favor and save all your clever one-liners and boil them down into a single post and wait a bit and post it. Then I might actually pay attention.

    Dave

  • Clavos

    Now where on earth would you pick up a delusional idea like that.

    From Dean. Told me he’s a humanist (whatever that means), not a socialist.

  • reasonableperson

    To IC:

    I am from Mainland and have been living in America for ten years. It is true that some american are arrogant, insane, narrow-minded, self-centered, but which country on the earth does not have this kind of people? There are many many american are kind, reasonable, and really warm-hearted, just like in other country. So it is not right that when you blame some american for some wrong doing, you say ” you american…..”, sounds like you are blaming all american people, that is not fare to good people like Nancy. I do suggest that you should change your tone a little bit.

  • Clavos

    Dean says:

    I try to avoid extremists like Dave.

    And:

    But I’m always interested in intellectually stimulating and semi-useful exchange of ideas — even wirh socialists.

    So you avoid exchanges from the right, but not from the left.

    How catholic of you.

  • I’m Chinese

    Nancy

    No government is perfect. There is very fundamental reform going on in the Chinese government system for the last 20 years and more is planned. As some adviser to the top in China puts it” it is the largest democracy in making”. For over 5000 years direct election is experimented in many rural villages. But when you do things in China, multiply any problems you encounter in America by 1.3 billion! We must be gradual and experiment a lot and make sure we have fully considered what can happen before we put it into national policies or it will be disaster! American democracy is not there ready when you declared independence. See your won history you will find how gradually you extend voting rights from wealthy white males to all white males and then to white women then late in 20th century, African American were finally allowed to ride a bus with you whites and then to vote. It took 200 years for you to arrive at where you are now and you have fewer than 100 million people for over 100 years and only 290 million now and not afraid of foreign invasion if you do not think of invading others!
    At the same time, the form of democracy is not a universal truth like math or physics. It is about how people interact with one another! So tradition and culture is the core part. American democracy reflects your traditions. If China finally comes up with a democracy not like you envisioned, don’t get upset! As long as most Chinese people feel good about that, that is democracy.
    Democracy needs money. As the Chinese old saying” only after people are well fed and clothed, will they think of order and manners”. The most urging thing in China now is to improve the living standards of every Chinese. Come to China you will see, the most wealthy cities are the most democratic! Both the government officials and citizens are more aware of human rights and rule of law. But please remember this: we only started that 20 years ago, why will someone with a fair argument compare us with America now? We should compare to America in 1780s!
    I am happy with my life and I think my government is doing a great job. Because I am a reader of my nation’s history, I understand how hard the Chinese government is trying to balance between many things: economic growth and environmental protection, democracy and domestic order, national security and foreign presence, etc., much more complicated than any one outside of China can imagine!
    By the way, Chinese are not used to direct confrontation. We like doing things quietly and keep face for both parties. It is cultural! If you go into face to face with someone in public, things that can be done good to both parties will end in bad! Please remember this. Maybe when my son is old enough to argue with you, the way Chinese people deal with one another will change to American way. Remember, democracy is all about how people interact with one another. It can assume many ways coherent to the culture and tradition! Give us time and leave us alone. We will find the Chinese Democracy that will rival your American Democracy just like “the Beijing Consensus” is a better alternative to Neoclassic economics. There are more than one road to Rome, and there are more than one way people enjoy democracy.

    As to the

  • I’m Chinese

    Dave

    I’m surprised by the reliance on using labels like “socialist”,” communist”, etc. You can not make a full sentence without these labels. You are more ideological than most Chinese. We do not use these words any more in China. If you use it in China people will look at you for 1 second and walk away as to avoid lunatics.
    I can post a lot because I’m stock trader. I choose stocks and trade them all by computers after 2 years of hard working in designing my software when I slept 4 hours a day for 2 years. Now I can enjoy my life with easy money. There is no better job to me than doing stocks. Sitting in my comfortable chair and watching screens and occasionally giving instructions. Most of my daytime is waiting my stocks to climb and wandering what to do. Next year I will start my own business as a hedge fund manager. Last year I earned 173% for my clients and this year by now I have earned 94%! These days Chinese stock market is crazy!

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Hey, IC. Are you the guy who keeps emailing me about petroleum stocks in Russia? Plese stop.

    As for labels, they’re just a shorthand. They keep discussions stripped down and to the point. Who wants to describe socialism everytime he discusses Dean, or explain what shill means every time he talks about you?

    Dave

  • I’m Chinese

    Dave
    I do Chinese stocks only!

  • Dean

    Clavos #717

    “So you avoid exchanges from the right, but not from the left.”

    I’m interested in intellectually stimulating and useful exchanges of ideas — wirh socialists, capitalists or anyone with an open mind.

    Extremist so-called “libertarians” like Dave are too closed-minded to engage in a stimulating exchange of ideas.

    An extremist like Dave is someone who rejects an argument solely on the basis that he doesn’t like what the person said on some other issue.

  • MCH

    “As for labels, they’re just a shorthand. They keep discussions stripped down and to the point. Who wants to describe socialism everytime he discusses Dean, or explain what shill means every time he talks about you?”
    – Dave Nalle

    Or “overbearing know-it-all” when speaking of you?

  • MCH

    “Dean says:
    I try to avoid extremists like Dave.
    And:
    But I’m always interested in intellectually stimulating and semi-useful exchange of ideas — even wirh socialists.
    So you avoid exchanges from the right, but not from the left.
    How catholic of you.”
    – Clavos

    Clavos, are you stalking Dean?

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    MCH, my wealth of knowledge is a cross I have to bear, just as your self-righteousness is the cross you have to bear.

    Dave

  • I’m Chinese

    Dave

    What wealth of knowledge you are refering to? To my observation you say nothing but repeatition of craps from CIA funded Human Rights Watch. And you have no basic training in economics although I heard someone say you talked about it.
    I believe that wealth is zero, right? Or you are just refering to how to torture people?
    My offer to you is still open, think! That means big monney!

  • Clavos

    Clavos, are you stalking Dean?

    Well…yes. That’s what we do in the CIA–stalk socialists.

    MCH, quit stalking me, or I’ll sic the Chicom government sgents on you.

    Beware… you know how they like to “take people out to the garden and shoot them in the head.”

  • Clavos

    IC says to Dave,

    To my observation you say nothing but repeatition of craps from CIA

    IC:

    “craps” is a game of chance played with dice.

    “Crap” is the stuff you guys put in your rice paddies to make the rice grow.

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    What wealth of knowledge you are refering to? To my observation you say nothing but repeatition of craps from CIA funded Human Rights Watch.

    This is called using evidence and sources to support an argument. Something I learned in graduate school.

    And you have no basic training in economics although I heard someone say you talked about it.

    Where do you get that idea? I specialized in economic history for my Masters Degree and I’ve taken both graduate and undergraduate courses in economics. And BTW, I survived a doctoral panel which had several socialists on it.

    I believe that wealth is zero, right?

    Huh?

    Or you are just refering to how to torture people?

    I defer to you on that subject.

    Dave

  • I’m Chinese

    Dave
    Master in Economics? Even don’t know the growth of economy is not BY increase in productivity? What history of economics did you study?Marsian economies?

  • I’m Chinese

    Clavos
    I have given up on you. Dave is far more educated than you and more fun to deal with. You are just a yacht building yard security, I have no interest talking to you unless I decide to order a yacht there in the future.

  • Dean

    “I specialized in economic history for my Masters Degree and I’ve taken both graduate and undergraduate courses in economics. And BTW, I survived a doctoral panel which had several socialists on it.”

    My experience has been that when someone has to tell me he actually went to school, how much he learned, and how smart he is, that person is immature, lacks self confidence, is fearful of being criticized for asinine positions on issues, and on and on…

    I could go on but I won’t.

  • Clavos

    Clavos
    I have given up on you

    BINGO!

    You are just a yacht building yard security, I have no interest talking to you unless I decide to order a yacht there in the future.

    Well, you can’t order it from me, I’m just the yard security guard who moonlights for the CIA.

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    Not a Masters in Economics, a Masters in History with a focus on economic history.

    Point taken on my earlier misuse of productivity. I wasn’t aware we were having an economics quiz. In pure economic terms productivity usually refers to industrial output. I was using it in a broader, non-technical sense not thinking that we were having a hardcore economics debate

    Indeed, it is not the productivity of an individual or of a specific business which grows an economy, except in limited and short-term ways, but the expansion of the business sector, which is I was referring to somewhat innacurately as the overall ability of a society to produce growth.

    Dave

  • I’m Chinese

    Dean
    I can not agree with you any more! Come on and give me a hug!

  • I’m Chinese

    Dave

    It seems my duty to correct your fundamental errors in economics and Chinese government, normal life things like that. Productivity is a measure of the quality of economic growth, neither it is the driving force of growth nor equal to economic growth. Over 1995-2000, Chinese GDP grew above 8% a year with its productivity barely increased. Why? Because then the government pumped a lot of resource in to the state-owned business and restrictions on private firms were not lifted. Those SOBs (just the same for Son of Bitches, I admire the inventor of the phrase state-owned business, who is rightfully portraying them!) just did not even try to improve how they did things! After that the Chinese government found itself unable to sustain that. So change in the growth mode became the first thing in economic reform. First restrictions on private business are lifted for most part. More state-owned firms are listed in the stock market and the bosses of these firms are measured not only in terms of usual indexes like profit, return of net assets, but also for the first time the STOCK prices. The bosses are put to the public test because we investors know better how well firms are doing than the State Asset Management Services! Is it amazing that now China is growing even faster than before when its magnitude of economy is much larger than then? It is the policies that count in China! You draw the right policies then the Chinese economy will do the rest itself well. Actually the SOBs are doing well if proper governance structures are established. Now stock options are introduced in the SOBs. The established doings of Corporate America are absorbed quietly and quickly in China. Welcome to the world of Corporate China!
    By the way, I don’t know what history you studied, but definitely unearth!

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    IC, what you’re describing is an economy in the process of conversion from one economic system to another. And that’s a good thing for China. But the question is which will break first, the current commitment to expanding capitalism which will ultimately require greater individual liberty, or the stranglehold of your government on the rights of the people.

    Fully functional capitalism cannot exist in an environment with central government control of resources and planning and a command and control style government cannot survive the constant demands of economically empowered people to determine their own destiny.

    Which do you think is going to survive, your beloved authoritarian government or your dreams of ongoing growth and prosperity for China? There will come a point where you have to choose.

    Based on your admiration for the emerging Chinese economy I’m guessing that’s the side you’re on, though it would obviously be a big mistake to admit it publicly. Have your bosses figured out yet that you are just biding time until the forces of economic change destroy them and the system they rule you by?

    It is the policies that count in China! You draw the right policies then the Chinese economy will do the rest itself well.

    The policies of political imprisonment and torture, limiting access to the internet, persecuting ethnic and religious minorities and suppressing free speech are standing in the way of the economy whether you admit they exist or not.

    Dave

  • STM

    IC #533: “When you guys talk about Chinese history and territory, remember when our ancestors wear silk and reading printed books, your ancestors still live in caves with animal skins wrapped around and bearly speak languages, even you pround Jews”

    Absolutely classic stuff, IC, and probably among your best work on this thread. And you’re right, of course, old boy. My ancestors were probably running around with axes and horns on their helmets at the time, and doing God knows what. Pillaging and plundering most likely, the rotten buggers. Perhaps it’s time we grew out of it, though.

    Personally, however, I believe the invention of the chopstick has been China’s greatest contribution to western popular culture, and crispy-skin chicken in special shenzan sauce with fried noodles must run a very close second.

    I’m actually about to order some from the Lotus Garden. I do love Chinese!

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    If you like the crispy chicken, you HAVE to try the crispy duck. It’s to die for.

    Dave

  • STM

    Only if it’s boneless, Dave. But I must say, nearly every dish at the Lotus Garden is fantastic.

    And although I love to live dangerously, I have never been able to pluck up the courage to order from the Chinese-language section of the menu … Imagine the scenario:

    STM, smiling (a facade, to cover his fear), points to dish #52.

    Waiter, yelling to kitchen in Mandarin: “The English fool wants the aged she-goat in pig’s blood sauce with pickled emu’s testicles. Even I won’t eat that sh.. ”

    STM: “With boiled rice and Chinese tea thanks.”

  • I’m Chinese

    Dave, come on, you haven’t responded to my offer. You just habitually return to your never stopping repeatition of lies.
    Say the sentence to the first office you meet on the road to show my the greatness of America.
    “I , Dave , hate George W. Bush. I’m going to build a 50-pound bomb and use a remote controlled pick-up to blow that SOB next month he visits my city.”

    Dave, you just dissapointed me. You have no knowledge and you have no courage. I wonder what you do to make a living if not working for the government? Hope you will not end up in welfare.

  • I’m Chinese

    Dave

    for your information, back in 1980s, no economists in the West believed that China would succeed in its economic development, because it is direct contrary to what Western economics thinks right! Well, the truth is , we are inventing the Chinese Economics and the success of our endeavor gives us the right to do that. So although you might listen to some 3-class economics lecture about Western economics, you surely won’t be able to understand Chinese Economics. But you understand it or not, like it or not, we do it our way. That’s, Chinese way or highway. hahaha

  • STM

    IC: I’m still not convinced by any of your arguments. For a so-called worker’s state, wages, hours and working conditions in China are third-world, at best (enforced 12-hour-plus days, sharing basic sleeping accommodation that they have to pay for, substistence wages) and if China’s economy is going ahead in leaps and bounds, it’s doing so on the backs of the labouring bodies of its unhappy workers.

    Why do you think so many western companies are investing in manufacturing plants in China? It’s the money, silly. They save a fortune by paying workers a pittance (through the Chinese agencies responsible for managing and administering such schemes).

    Making people work in near slave-like conditions is not a sign of a society that has advanced much beyond where it was in its golden age a few thousand years ago.

    I realise there are good historical reasons for this and of course it’s better than it has been, but in terms of genuine economic growth, as yet, it’s still just a false dawn – and will remain so until the benefits of such growth are passed on to all the people.

    So far, there’s no real evidence that much has changed.If it had, people wouldn’t be doing everything they can to move somewhere else.

    You can’t hide the fact that more people are permanently leaving China every day than are wanting to move there. The reason: it’s a tough, hard life unless you’re a party member, a family member of a party member or a member of the so-called new (economic) elite. Sometimes both or all three, as they’re often connected.

    The average worker in China (about 98 per cent of the population) still has very few rights, low wages and poor working and living conditions. Stop trying to fluff us with nonsense, IC: none of us is buying it.

    The real indicator of a nation’s economic growth and well-being is the corresponding well-being of its workers.

  • I’m Chinese

    STM
    You’re an informed and caring reader and I really have interest in talking to you.
    1 I never claim China is a worker’s state. It was Soviet Union. Actually you are right about the working conditions of young Chinese men and women. It’s no secret. You travel to China and will see it by your own eyes. Talking about the reasons would be too complicated. We will start with the colonial rule of western nations in China from 1840 to 1949, The Jap invasion and the civil war, the Cultural Revolution, ect.. The only thing we can talk about it is “Can we avoid that now?” Well, there is nothing I can do about it, as it seems an unavoidable. This is the historical stage England went through in 1700-1900, France 1800-1900, and America 1800-1900. Every industrial nation had this bitter history. Do not pretend you were as rich as now 100 years ago. We would like to jump over this bitterness, would you help us for goods China produce if prices were raised 5 times as you pay for now? Come on, you wear bargain shirts made in China and complain about the labor conditions in China. If you do care, please pay more.
    2 All I say in this thread is not to boast the working conditions, which is really bitter and dangerous as many factories are not well equipped with safety facilities. I just want to tell people like Dave we are doing our best to improve our life and being poor now is not something to be shamed of. There are over 11 million people joining the working force for the first time every year. If you were the Chinese government leader, what would you do to feed them and give them job? Do you see France, where over 20% young people are out of job? But France is rich enough to feed them. But China cannot afford that because we do not have the wealth reserve from the past colonial occupation like France does. Think about this, can the planet provide enough new jobs for over 11 million Chinese young people with the pay as high as in America. If you have any feasible plan, grab a ticket and fly to Beijing and I’m sure you will be appointed to be the top economic adviser in 1 second!
    3 Cheap conscience and accusation won’t help us. Rome was not build overnight, and most of Chinese cannot reach the living standard as you enjoy now even in 30 years, although the magnitude of the whole economy will. It’s good for talented Chinese people to seek better opportunities in other parts of the world, just like your forefathers crossed the Atlantic with a bag of potato back in 1800s. There is nothing to be ashamed of.

  • I’m Chinese

    It is just basic principle of economics, where there is over supply, the price will drop. The businessmen who run these sweat factories are to be blamed. But many of them are Western firms who many of you may work for! I don’t try to convince anyone China is heaven, I just want to tell those who never hear it from a Chinese about what we are doing now. Although we are still far behind, but we are working very hard and all we need is peace and time, and some balanced view from you!

  • STM

    IC: No doubt China’s time will come. People-power will bring about slow human rights changes. It is a different place to the Soviet Union. I was in Moscow and Leningrad in the mid-1980s and it was tragic that a system that was supposed to benefit the people only benefited the select few who were running the place.

    I often think when people were talking about the two superpowers and the disintegration of the Soviet Union, that in fact China was always a genuine third superpower. There has to be a counterbalance, despite the fact that in my view, the United States is a benevolent state rather than a malevolent one (despite some of its odd foreign-policy balls-ups). Luckily, China doesn’t flex its muscles too much these days. And you don’t hear about any disaffected, angry young Chinese planning to blow up trains in London or crash planes in New York.

    The right not be blown up by idiots is a fundamental one.

    So let’s hope China’s continuing economic growth and its trade with places like the US, Europe, Australia and Canada helps keep the world – almost – a peaceful place. I look forward to the day when we all live in peace and prosperity.

    I’m probably dreaming, but it’d be nice all the same.

  • I’m Chinese

    STM
    Even if we were under the aggression of America, it would be unconceivable that any young Chinese would hijack a plane and smash it to some building to kill Americans. It is just not Chinese! But a Chinese soldier will not hesitate to carry a roll of grenades to blow an American tank as we saw times after times in the Korean war. I rightfully claim that Chinese soldiers are the finest ones in the world. We strictly separate soldiers and civilians. Even with so much hatred towards Japs, there were rare killings of Jap civilians left in China after the WWII. We simply do not do that..

  • STM

    IC said: “It’s good for talented Chinese people to seek better opportunities in other parts of the world, just like your forefathers crossed the Atlantic with a bag of potato back in 1800s.”

    Just want to clear this one up … my forefathers never crossed the Atlantic, thank God, and so I remain, happily, forever un-American (I still ring up my friends in the US on July 4 to offer my condolences on the anniversary of their dreadful mistake in breaking away from the British empire). History, however, proves to me that America has been a good, kind and loyal friend, and is not generally engaged in schemes of evil subjugation (OK, a bit then, but none of us is perfect).

    On the subject of transplanted nationality, luckily, one forefather headed in the other direction and crossed the Indian Ocean. I now live happily and peacefully in a beach paradise that also passes as the largest city in the south pacific rim.

    It was built by convicts not puritans, is full of hard-working Chinese, and Gibbo doesn’t live here anymore although I still have his old sleeping bag tucked away in the garden shed (come back mate, it’s where you really belong … a spiritual home, especially now with the record and all).

  • I’m Chinese

    The rapid growth of China will keep for a long time. Usually low pay and labor intensive industries will be shifted to less developed countries, but China is so vast and the supply of labor is almost unlimited, this shift will be done within the border, from east to west, from south to north. China will take a large share in capital-intensive, tech-intensive and labor-intensive industries. No economy in history has ever done that! America is capital-and-tech-intensive, but it needs products by cheap labor. So is EU. It is a mini-world economy by China itself. The complete industry chain is no rival in the world! And this will keep China grow fast for at least 30 years

  • I’m Chinese

    America treats English speaking countries well. Well is it outright racism?

  • Johanna

    Bryan,I assue that you never been in China.right? I just came back from China.I absolutely support Zet’s comments.If you wanna find an answer. To travel China.or to know some local chinese.It makes sense:-)

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    STM, China’s economy has always been driven by slave labor. The entire idea of a central command and control state is to turn the vast majority of the population into a pool of cheap labor in order to speed up economic production without having to industrialize. The problem comes when the country actually starts to industrialize and yet continues to enslave the population with less and less justification. Unless China can move away from that practice they’re in for a major crisis caused by their own success. That’s if they don’t choke on their own pollution first, of course.

    Dave

  • Clavos

    America treats English speaking countries well. Well is it outright racism?

    Since a common language is not part of the definition of race, no.

  • I’m Chinese

    Dave

    You are so childish. I thought you were educated, now I know I’m wrong. You are just an uneducated lunatics living in your own fantasy. Are you talking about central planned economy? Well these are the only English words you can write so you keep doing that to show your wealth of knowledge? You have no idea of what WTO is and China is a major member of it? China’s market economy status have been regonized by major international organizations. I quit talking to you, you just don’t have any education of any sort.

  • Dean

    IC,

    “I quit talking to you, you just don’t have any education of any sort.”

    Congratulations.

    It’s time others realized this.

  • Clavos

    Birds of a feather…

  • Dean

    Clavos, stop worrying about the Chinese communists taking over the world.

    Worry about the Chinese capitalists doing it.

  • Clavos

    Real capitalism knows no borders, Dean. I think the rise of multinational corporations is evidence of that.

    What bothers me is that the largest and potentially most powerful nation on earth is still run by, and in the control of communists.

    I would welcome capitalism taking over the world. A rising tide lifts all boats.

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    Yes, IC, I do know what the WTO is. As for my education, aside from my years in college and grad school, it comes from reading and paying attention to current events, both of which are severely circumscribed in China where access to western books is limited and you only find out about those events which the government chooses to tell you about in order to serve their interests.

    I never said China didn’t have at least some sort of market economy, but when your single largest corporation is the Red Army and most of your other large enterprises are run by the government or have the government as a controlling silent partner, it is not an open, capitalist economy in the normal sense. It’s actually quite close to the model of a fascist economy.

    Given your dismaying ignorance about your own country and obvious government-programmed biases which you display, you’re in no position to call anyone uneducated.

    Dave

  • I’m Chinese

    Dave
    You claimed you are a MASTER in history, well ,but I am sure you dont’t know the real meaning of facism. Now the real definition of facism is
    “a political system in which all power of government is vested in a person or group with no other power to balance and limit the activities of the government and plays on fears of communism,promots an aggressive nationalism and often racism. Fascist governments are often closely associated with large corporations and sometimes with extreme nationalism and racist activities. Modern fascism is often called “CORPORATISM”.”

    Well, America is far closer to facism than China.
    hehehe. master in history, which university would admit any involvement with you?

  • Clavos

    IC, Your #760 indicates a confusion about what corporatism is.

    For your edification, here’s the definition from Wikipedia:

    Historically, corporatism or corporativism (Italian corporativismo) is a political system in which legislative power is given to civic assemblies that represent economic, industrial, agrarian, and professional groups. Unlike pluralism, in which many groups must compete for control of the state, in corporatism, certain unelected bodies take a critical role in the decision-making process. These corporatist assemblies are not the same as contemporary business corporations or incorporated groups.

  • troll

    right…corporatist assemblies are more along the lines of the Federal Reserve or (admittedly less directly influential or formally structured) Cheney’s get togethers with oil magnates

    the people with the bucks control the State…which describes the US government pretty well despite its pluralist veneer – (and which Dave would say is as it should be)

  • RedTard

    Ohhh so proud, IC. Didn’t it just rupture your collective 105 IQ’s when those silly Europeans bent you over for 100 years, then the Japs came right back and made you their bitches!

    So, IC, please study for additional IQ test, maybe next time you’ll make 106. In the meantime, Japanese, Americans, and Europeans will continue to enjoy freedom and prosperity. You be the test taking champions, the west will continue to rule the world!

  • Clavos

    troll, do either the Federal Reserve or Cheney’s get togethers with oil maganates have “legislative power”?

    From where I sit, the Fed has been doing a damn good job of keeping interest rates and the economy on an even keel for a pretty good while, even without legislative power.

  • troll

    *do either the Federal Reserve or Cheney’s get togethers with oil maganates have “legislative power”?*

    as in power over legislators and legislation – you bet

    why become a politician when you can own a few instead – ?

  • Clavos

    So, it boils down to opinion…

  • troll

    it boils down to corporate interests and access

  • Dean

    When you have enough money, you can buy the best.

    We have the best Congress and Administration that 35,000 lobbyists can buy with the money in their deep pockets.

  • I’m Chinese!

    Buy more defense industry stocks, America is planning to invade Iran! Dave, Clavos,time to introduce freedom and democracy to Iran, join the Army and ride into Iran in your Stryker!

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    We have the best Congress and Administration that 35,000 lobbyists can buy with the money in their deep pockets.

    Money which comes from the public in the form of donations to issue PACs and money invested in companies who hire the lobbyists. In a very real way the lobbyists represent the American public more than our elected representatives do.

    Dave

  • I’m Chinese!

    Dave

    How many out of every 100 average American would pay for a lobbyist? Do these plobbyists receive more money from big firms or more from average Americans?

  • Handsome Chinese

    Chinese have a long history, a great culture, and lots of classical and modern writings which can make it possible for them to have access to information needed to solve problems in numerous different situations. (You can’t learn them unless you learn the Chinese language first.) They can’t be translated into English with precision.

  • Handsome Chinese

    I agree with IC that Chinese must get rich first before presenting more demands on political reforms. Let the poor be rich enough first before they talk more about political freedom.

    However, certain things that are obviously against our conscience should not be tolerated. For instance, it is hard for foreigners and locals to understand why a good government would sentence a Chinese blind lawyer to four-year imprisonment just because he talked about why people should not be forced to abort babies.

    There is no doubt that Chinese citizens should support the present strong government/administration. Without that support, China’s social stability and economic developments will be seriously and adversely affected. However, human rights (at least outwardly) are what the Chinese government should begin to respect more in future.

    What I am saying is that we may not always need a democratically government, but if you genuinely care for the people, you will make sure that good people who love the country have a chance to say something good for the country. (Sometimes, a country with democratic elections and a multi-party system may also be filled with thousands of selfish and hypocritical politicians who, in the course of their actions, actually split, disintegrate and destroy their country.)

    I believe a single-party system like that in China can still work very well if the government begins to show some sensitiveness to certain human rights issues. Handling these issues in a more humane way can actually help to promote the image of the entire country and its administration.

    There is nothing wrong about a single-party system like that in China, but there should be sufficient social and legal mechanisms to ensure that individuals’ rights are respected and individuals are treated justly as the country develops rapidly in stages.

  • Dean

    Dave says —

    “Money which comes from the public in the form of donations to issue PACs and money invested in companies who hire the lobbyists. In a very real way the lobbyists represent the American public more than our elected representatives do.”

    Ha!

    Lobbyists generally represent special interest groups and cabals with deep pockets, not the majority of Americans.

    The lobbyists with the most money to buy votes includes large corporations like Exxon Mobil and other multi-nationals (most partially owned by non-Americans). The total list of such corporations is too long to display here.

    It is strange that some individuals believe that lobbyists for companies such as Exxon Mobil represent them.

    Obviously, these individuals are delusional.

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    How many out of every 100 average American would pay for a lobbyist? Do these plobbyists receive more money from big firms or more from average Americans?

    From both, really. Everyone has lobbyists. The company you work for or own stock in, your local government, your ethnic group, neighborhood associations, charities, churches, unions and on and on and on.

    Lobbyists generally represent special interest groups and cabals with deep pockets, not the majority of Americans.

    And who among us isn’t part of a special interest group or possessed of shared interests with a cabal with deep pockets?

    The lobbyists with the most money to buy votes includes large corporations like Exxon Mobil and other multi-nationals (most partially owned by non-Americans). The total list of such corporations is too long to display here.

    Corporations which you or I might work for or own stock in, thereby benefitting fromt he success of those corporations.

    It is strange that some individuals believe that lobbyists for companies such as Exxon Mobil represent them.

    Buy a few shares of Exxon stock and they do.

    Obviously, these individuals are delusional.

    Or less short-sighted than you are.

    Dave

  • http://brandenyang.spaces.live.com/ Branden von Bismarck

    OK…guys…
    1. China will never accept those “self-determination” crap, OK? We were imposed with opiums from the Brits, so now ur telling us what to do, think we’ll listen to you guys, NO. Btw, a drug dealer will be executed nowadays according to the chinese law (as well as many asian countries, of coz thos scums have to go away.). Lucky for thos Brits living 150 yrs ago.

    2. China will continue the reform and become a Bismarckian nation rather than a democracy, and keep maintaining a good relationship with the countries in the region while hopefully have a chance the revenge what the Japanese had done to us (like Bismarck beat the French, tho it was not a revenge…).

    3. “shut up?” so what, how many times you people want to pick on us?

    4. Keep fighting in iraq, just keep fighting… don’t stop, it’s much much better. c how many new stupid rules have been imposed bcoz the airports r more dangerous than b4.

    no personal attack…as u can see

    Branden Yang

  • troll

    the third house is a den of corruption but it’s our den and the only system we have for communicating ‘needs’ to the elected legislature

    it needs a good cleaning

    Pollyanna’s extreme view is absurd of course…like saying that because I turned on an electric light this morning lobbyists advocating increased reliance on nuclear power are working for me

  • Clavos

    Three of the largest and most powerful lobbies in DC include:

    AARP
    NEA
    NRA

    All of them represent people, not corporations.

  • Dean

    “All of them represent people, not corporations.”

    In your dreams.

    Lobbyists represent special interests, not the people.

    It is obvious that bribery is alive and well in Washington.

    When special interest lobbies are allowed to write our laws, the people are not represented.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Lobbyists represent special interests, not the people.

    Special interests ARE people. I pay one of the groups Clavos listed on a regular basis so that they’ll represent MY interests in Washington. Other people pay the other two groups so that they’ll screw with my interests. And, in fact, I pay several groups money to oppose the efforts of one of those lobbies.

    Dave

  • Dean

    “Special interests ARE people.”?

    People have a right to vote, special interests do not.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Yes, but if you want to have MORE influence than just your single vote, you take your money to your union or your representative lobbying group and encourage them to present your case to congress or in the courts to advance your welfare. The special interest groups aren’t voting, they’re advocating for you. Are you saying that we shouldn’t be able to hire lawyers to defend ourselves in court or purchase advertising to promote our businesses? It’s the same thing.

    Dave

  • Dean

    When you say hiring a lawyer to present a case in court is “the same thing” as paying a lobbyist to buy votes in a legislative body or administration, I have to believe that you are out of touch with reality.

  • Dean

    Lawyers don’t make judicial decisions. Have you ever paid a judge or jury anything?

  • Dean

    How much would you have paid Jack Abramoff to “represent” you?

  • equal

    most average people do not have money to pay to lobbist.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    most average people do not have money to pay to lobbist.

    Sure they do. My $30 a year paid to the NRA gets me a hell of a lot of powerful representation in Washington.

    How much would you have paid Jack Abramoff to “represent” you?

    Not being an indian gaming entrepreneur the point is probably irrelevant. And the main problem with Abramoff is that he ripped off the people who paid him.

    Dave

  • I’m Chinese!

    America is pointing the finger at the wrong country. Japan is the right one to be really worried about! The right-wing power in Japan reaches the highest level before it launched the Pearl Harbor attack. Do not forget Japan never forgets who threw two atomic bombs over its head and as the second largest economy and military spender, Japan is planning a lethal revenge on America. The accumulation of materials for nuclear weapons is second only to America. It is spending crazily on space programs, which boosts its ballistic missile preparations to attack America. A nation that once prepared itself with national suicide to attack America is always a threat and its democracy America transplanted after the War is now giving up to right-wing powers.

  • South East Asian Chinese

    IC is right. While the Germans have repented of their extremely sinful killings of the Jews, the Japanese have not repented of their extremely horrible crimes in killing thousands of people in Nanjing and other parts of Asia.

    That is serious! They even pay tribute to and worship wartime criminals at the shrine and argue that they don’t. They have even denied that mass killings took place. You can sense how cold and horribly ugly their hearts are.

    Those who have not repented can be extremely dangerous to the U.S., Europe, China, and the world.

  • Anderson

    Fortunately, the Phoenix TV Station has told hundreds of millions of Chinese all over the world about what is happening in the U.S. Many in Asia are happy to know that more and more Americans begin to realize that they need to cooperate with China economically and politically (if they are sincerely concerned about their own well-being in the forthcoming decades).

  • James

    No matter whether you like it or not, China is going to be a superpower that is more formidable to resist than the former Soviet Union.

  • Donald

    It is not wrong for China to be secretive about its military spending. A nation which has been bullied and tortured for more than a century should now realize how important it is to keep a low profile while concentrating on buiding its defensive systems.

  • Jefferey

    Hey guys, after another ten years, China will be an economy which is bigger than that of the United States. It is not suprising that its influence will be more powerful that that of the United States soon.

  • Gordon Liew

    You are right. China’s influence in Africa is already more powerful than that of the United States. That is why the West is attempting to tell the Africans that China is making use of Africans to serve its own interests. Actually, what China has been doing have benefited the people of Africa tremendously.

  • Siew Lan

    When Westerners (except genuine Christians) had forgoten about the Africans, the Chinese from the despised People’s Republic at that time (in the 1950s and 1960s) went all out to help the Africans. The Chinese are still doing so in the 21st century even though they are no longer regarded with contempt.

  • African Supporter

    A stronger Africa will benefit China tremendously, and a more economically powerful China will bring great properity to Africa.

  • Brandon

    Of course we know. China has a population which is many times bigger than that of the U.S. It will come as no surprise that when the much larger mass of people are well educated, well trained and move to the forefront of scientific research and development, the resulting impact on the entire world, including the U.S., will be unimaginably shocking.

  • Wilson

    What will turn out to be shocking will not be just “the large mass of people moving to the forefront of research and scientific development.” The potentially amazing scenario includes an enormous country with countless intelligent and diligent people who are determined to lead the world once again after being asleep for several centuries.

  • http://alienboysworld.blogspot.com Christopher Rose

    What shocks me is the fact that “Anderson”, “James”, “Donald”, “Jefferey”, “Gordon Liew”, “Siew Lan”, “African Supporter”, “Brandon” and “Wilson” all have exactly the same IP address…

  • S.T.M

    Why would you be worried about that old boy …. they’ve obviously been out for a bit of crispy-skin duck and have stopped at the internet cafe on the way home after one too many lagers.

    Or perhaps they are just one person working at the central planning ministry in Beijing.

    Either way … nothing to worry about. Except the syntax.

  • Clavos

    CR & STM,

    Or perhaps they are just one person working at the central planning ministry in Beijing.

    Dead on…

    And this isn’t the first time in this thread.

    It’s an awfully long thread (partly because that’s what our esteemed Asian friends want– a BC “most comments ever” title — they said so; see comments back in late August), but if you check that time period through early Sept you’ll see quite a spirited discussion also involving several PRC employees.

    Said PRC agents spouted mostly propaganda. Nalle checked IP addresses back then, too, and bingo; at least 8 or 10 handles were coming from only three IPs, two in china and one in London.

  • S.T.M

    Hello People’s Republic of China secret agents … I’m STM. I am loser too! Not only couldn’t get into university of choice but only Chinese friend ever had was born in Australia and his nickname Chongo. One of best surfers and rugby halfbacks ever met, but all skills learned in Australia. He also quite smart but have one failing: one of worst drivers ever met. Don’t want to stereotype but suspect it has something to do with peripheral vision. Also falls asleep after five beers. However, I love to use ancient Chinese technology – chopsticks – and thanks to tip-off from Chongo, big fan of crispy-skin chicken with shangtung sauce from Lotus Garden up the road (beat American hamburger hands down). They own me. They are my Chinese bros.

  • Clavos”to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws

    Trolling, STM? :>)

  • S.T.M

    Up early, daughter off to school, waiting for a phone call, and bored shitless, actually. You can tell, too, can’t you??

    That you Chris??

  • Clavos

    No, ’tis Clavos, mate. Something went crazy in the little box with my handle…

  • Clavos

    @#808:

    Are you afraid to write under your own handle?

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    What shocks me is the fact that “Anderson”, “James”, “Donald”, “Jefferey”, “Gordon Liew”, “Siew Lan”, “African Supporter”, “Brandon” and “Wilson” all have exactly the same IP address…

    I’m not. Though it does surprise me that the address is in Malaysia. Has BC not taken the standard security procedure of blocking all Malaysian and Indonesian IP addresses?

    Dave

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Clavos, STM, Dave,

    I got to admit these guys from China had me boiling in their rice bowl for a while. They obviously know how to play their BS game rather well… One of these days I’ll have to check into some internet café and watch Chris Rose’s virtual eyebrows shoot up in surprise…

    Later…

  • http://alienboysworld.blogspot.com Christopher Rose

    I dunno, you try a tiny bit of humour and dour pols take you literally. Don’tcha just hate pols, don’tcha?

    Ruvy, The only time you’ll see me looking surprised will be on the day when you finally admit all your faithist nonsense is untrue and apologise for calling for the slaughter of both Arabs and all the Israelis and foreigners in Tel Aviv that you wouldn’t mind seeing nuked.

    Of course that would take some integrity and moral courage so it’s pretty unlikely…

  • HACKER

    all Chinese who read this site should make a link to Chinese hacker forums

  • Someone

    Hey I know why these trailer trash are angry at CHina, cuz they probably lost their crappy assembly line job and now all they can do is cry about it.

  • Clavos

    China is the greatest nation on earth! me love CHINA!

  • STM

    I love crispy-skin chicken with shangtung sauce and boiled rice.

  • Brandon

    Dear Clavos and Nalle,
    Checking people’s IP addresses is simply a ridiculous thing to do. Everyone is free to use any name and any number of names.
    You are only intelligent if you are able to comment on the content/s. It doesn’t matter whether one, four or ten people use/s the same IP address to write at an Internet cafe.
    You need not respond to this message. Just refelect on all that have been said by these ‘people’ at the same IP address.

  • Anderson and Brandon

    Dear STM,
    You just don’t understand what ‘syntax’ is. You had better take a course in English grammar or linguistics before writing at this site.
    You should be more conscious of the syntactical structures of your own sentences.

  • S.T.M

    Ah, we’re back … hello gentlemen. Yes, you are probably right. My grammar’s not great. How’s Beijing this time of year, BTW? Should be quite chilly still.

    Remember fellas – really, do watch the syntax; it’s a dead giveaway. That, and the inability to recognise irony.

  • troll

    Brandon talking about freedom – now that’s ironic

  • Clavos

    Brandon, in #813, writes:

    Everyone is free to use any name and any number of names.

    Actually, Brandon, you’re wrong. Here’s an excerpt from the comment policy of this site:

    We also ask that you not post comments under multiple names, and it is grounds for immediate banning to comment under someone else’s name.

  • Brandon

    Clavos,
    Can you stop several people from sharing a computer at an Internet cafe if they don’t mind waiting for their turns to write at this site?

  • Clavos

    I can’t, no.

    But the editors CAN block any specific computer from being able to post comments, IF they feel it’s necessary.

    I’m not an editor, just a poster and commenter.

    Hope that answers your question?

  • Brandon

    Clavos,
    Of course the editors CAN do that. But isn’t it silly to stop a few guys from sharing a computer when they all have a lot to post at this site?
    Is it right to stop different individuals, who have similar or differing views, to save up some costs while attempting to express their views using the same computer at an Internet cafe?

  • Clavos

    Not my call, dude…

  • jojoe

    When the Chinese diplomat said shut up he meant “shut up, you have people starving in streets and 50 million do not have health insurance, you spend more on defense than on education, health, enviroment combined several times over”
    I think that’s what he meant