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Character, Assassinated

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It’s been clear for some months now that John McCain has decided that the issues matter far less than the character of his opponent, Barack Obama. With the choice of his running mate six weeks ago, Governor Sarah Palin, whom he has allowed to run wild on the character issue, and the more recent robo calls that at first concentrated on Obama’s connections to domestic terrorists (after saying, in the last debate, that he didn’t care about any “washed up terrorists” ) and today switched, with Rudy Giuliani’s help, to misrepresenting Obama’s position with regards to sentencing for crimes committed, McCain and Palin have put the final nail in the coffin of their self respect.

McCain and Palin are creating a culture war of vast proportions under the guise of “normal negative campaigning” and the American public, inured to negative advertising for far too long, now sees the abnormal and dangerous as business as usual.

When it is not.

John McCain and Sarah Palin are doing far more damage to this country than anything they can possible accuse Barack Obama of: socialism, Marxism, spreading the wealth, being a Muslim, not being a “real” American, not being a citizen, being involved in a friendship with a “domestic terrorist,” being willing to let murderers out of jail, being soft on drugs, ignoring his brother, being Godless, a liberal, an America-hater, a Communist, and gasp, not being a patriot. I am sure there are things I have left out.

What John McCain and Sarah Palin are doing is spreading nasty and irresponsible discontent in the guise of Truth. What McCain and Palin are doing is reprehensible. What McCain and Palin are doing is spreading hate.

Yet a certain segment of the American public is eating it up like the poor starving children in Oliver’s orphanage ate up the porridge and asked for “more, please!”

And we are to believe that McCain and Palin are like us.

Good, rock-solid, God-fearing, church-going, flag-waving Americans.

An American who happens to own seven homes, has a 100 million dollar fortune, and slid by on his daddy’s coattails. An American who recently had a make-over to the tune of $150,000.

An American whose son dropped out of school, whose daughter got pregnant out of wedlock, goes to school sporadically herself and plans to marry a boy who also dropped out of school. An American who takes her young children out of school to traipse around the country while mommy goes on television to throw hockey pucks and dance.

An American who pokes fun of the liberal and un-American parts of the United States while plundering its department stores for fancy clothes to wear. An American who talks about family values while repeatedly cheating on his first wife and living apart from his second.

Right. An All American.

An All American Candidate and his running mate.

An American candidate who tells the American public that he will run a clean and honest campaign and then spends months talking not about the crises facing the country—the downfall of the financial system, the weakening the security of the country, the lack of confidence in the government, the fact that the people are emotionally and financially bankrupt and can’t pay for their own medicines if they have to buy groceries, and are losing their homes, the fact that our education system is falling behind every major industrial country—but about which states and parts of states are “most patriotic” and “most American” and whether or not the other candidate is really a Muslim in Christian clothing.

An American candidate who sends his pitbull of a vice presidential candidate out to rabble rouse and then pretends to be shocked when the crowds get mean and ugly.

John McCain and Sarah Palin are practicing character assassination of the highest order and even members of their own party are sick to death of it. Defections are taking place daily. And yet, McCain says he says Obama right where he wants him. And where is that, I wonder?

What is to be gained by painting “liberals” as less than patriotic, as socialists, Communists, Godless, traitors?

Do we not get up every morning and go to work, raise our kids, attend church (or not), pay our taxes, give to charity, mow our lawns, pay our bills, kiss our mothers just like the rest of the country?

What is to be gained by trying to portray those of us who support the other candidate as dangerous and scary? As monstrous and evil? As so misguided as to wish to bring down a reign of terror and horror and fire and brimstone and financial destruction such as the world as never ever seen before?

I cannot even begin to imagine. I look at myself in the mirror and see a good and decent woman. But then I have heard such hate mongering before and I had no horns nor cloven feet then, either. Nor did the world end.

Sarah Palin said today that God will decide this race. I refuse to accept that particular gauntlet except to say that our present president said the same thing. I would advise Ms. Palin to be careful what she wishes for.

Barack Obama is no saint. I actually disagree with him on a few issues myself. But he has maintained a much higher road than his opponent. Like George Bush right after 9-11, whatever goodwill John McCain came into the race with, and he came into it with quite a bit, he has squandered every last bit of it these past two months. He will regret his actions and his lack of attention to the real problems facing this country. Should he actually pull off a win, he will be left with even less credibility than our former commander in chief. And that is saying something.

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About Lisa Solod

  • moon

    Sarah Palin was now tarted up in red leather to do her red-baiting act; in a cut-rate imitation of Pat Robertson, she called for the military invasion of Venezuela.

    The hateful little tart goes a long way toward demonstrating just is what is really disgusting about Gringos.

    Fortunately, Hugo Chavez has a bullet-proof red shirt ready for her–and he doesn’t have to pick up dollar bills without using his hands to get folks’ attention.

  • Baronius

    He’s been hate-filled, making fun of the candidate’s marriage and his family…oh, wait; that was you.

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    Not making fun, Baronius, just pointing out how hypocritical the whole thing is….. How McCain and Palin act like they are so Of The People and then act like such slugs.

    I was struck today when listening to the entire Joe the Plumber thing, how Obama took at least 3 or 4 minutes to seriously answer the question of a man who was clearly not even interested in the answer. How thoughtfula nd clear he was. How careful he was to explain his plan, and how he told “Joe” how he would benefit from capital gains cuts, and how he could hire more people and how more people could hire him and that was where the “spread the wealth” comment came in. And how McCain took that tiny piece out, made it a sound bite for ‘socialism’ and made the whole thing awful and evil and part of his hate mongering.

    And then Joe turns out to never want to buy a business at all. To not even pay his taxes. To be a shill. A fake.

    And John McCain uses this sham of a man to attack a man who was trying to be good and kind and decent.

    And how now this man, Obama, is being villified as a socialist.

    And how our country is completely divided by people who can’t even listen to anything more than a 30 second sound bite.

    It’s truly deplorable. And McCain and his running mate are in the thick of it.

  • Mooja

    Division is rampant everywhere, including this article. No party wears a halo. Be a unifier.

  • Baronius

    Mooja, that’s not true. McCain is a slug, and Obama is good and kind and decent. Apparently.

  • Baronius

    Sorry, Mooja. You’re right. It’s a valid point.

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    I didn’t say the Dems wore a halo, but if you Mooja and you Bar can’t even see what the McCain/Palin ticket has been doing, then I really despair… Nowhere has Obama done anything even close to what the Repubs have done.

  • Baronius

    Lisa, Obama lost me back when he lied about the effectiveness of the surge in Iraq. That involved human lives and the fate of a nation. Obama lost any claim to the high road. If you want to talk about which candidate has sunk lower, maybe you’re right. I haven’t paid attention to the ads lately. But I haven’t noticed flat-out lies in McCain ads.

    McCain’s run a lousy campaign. He didn’t do anything for about three months. Part of that was due to McCain sticking with federal funding, as Obama promised to do (and broke his promise). Now that he’s finally started to campaign, he’s trying to make up for lost time. But he should have been running an issues-oriented campaign for months, and he should have been hitting Obama about Ayers and Rezko, and spreading the wealth, and experience, and a hundred other weaknesses.

    The narrative is out there that McCain’s been negative, and everyone keeps repeating it. It’s a shame. The lesson to be learned from the McCain campaign is the exact opposite. McCain’s been so worried about losing the respect of the press that he failed to stand up for himself until it was (too?) late. Then, as is common for McCain, he followed up inactivity with unnecessary aggression.

  • Lisa you and I see eye-to-eye on this. I am not 100% Obama zombie not by a long shot. In fact I think he has not come completely clean on his relationship with Ayers, somebody is “putting on Ayers” and it ain’t Heloise.

    Who’s putting us on about Ayers I wonder to myself. I think that the truth lies somewhere in the middle, not center, not right, not left. Obama is not only black enough but in fact may have been too black! Irony of ironies.

    But it matters not who is hanging out in his beehive or who built it. McCain’s rise to power was on the heels, high heels of some pretty powerful women and men.

    Obama does have much in common with JFK. It turns out that he has more money, raised more money than Joe Sr. could ever or would ever spend on a campaign. Again more irony.

    Obama’s blackness makes me like him more actually. But would it have made white people love him more? I doubt it.

    Finally, I ask “Can McCain lose his state, Arizona that is?” GOre did not carry TN and Edwards did not carry NC.

    The significance of lucky 888 for Obama is simply, I predict, he will win 8 states he has no business even being competitive in.


  • pleasexcusetheinterruption

    The significance of lucky 888 for Obama is simply, I predict, he will win 8 states he has no business even being competitive in.

    Name them. So we can all have a good laugh.

  • “Obama lost me back when he lied about the effectiveness of the surge in Iraq.”

    And of course, you know about the effectiveness how exactly? Because McCain, Bush, and Petraeus told you? Woodward reports that it’s clandestine activity towards specific targets that has actually been effective, so you should wait until history tells the tale.

    “I haven’t noticed flat-out lies in McCain ads.”

    That’s a reflection on you. Do some research. It’s painless.

    “McCain sticking with federal funding, as Obama promised to do”

    that’s not exactly what he promised. He pledged to discuss it, but even if your claim was true, why would anyone give away an advantage they had? That would be poor judgment for a leader.

  • McCain has run a shit filled campaign – especially when the shine began wearing off Miss Moose, and his numbers started to tank.

    But McCain’s real problem is that he hasn’t anything to offer. Even his own campaign back in June couldn’t find any real reason to elect John McCain. They couldn’t come up with a “hook.” McCain, when it comes down to it, is just a less agreeable version of GWB. Although our current president is inept and has a disturbing resemblence to Alfred E. Newman, he does possess a certain affability which would probably make him more fun at parties, an important consideration.

    I doubt at this juncture that McCain has much input regarding what his campaign is actually doing. He has taken “Joe the Plumber” and run with it for over a week, not realizing that it is not resonating with voters. When Johnnie says he is “proud” of his sleazy adds, the robo calls, the tasteless mailers all making both scurrilous and spurious personal attacks against Obama, it seems that he either really has no idea of their content, or, worse, has simply and completely sold his soul in the vain hope of victory in November.

    If there was a John McCain who had any sense of decency, honor or ethics, he has long since left the building. The John McCain we are left with is a bellicose, condescending, name calling, mean spirited, spiteful old man who is far too out of touch and reactionary to be our president.

    As to the fucking surge. Jesus. From a political standpoint, the surge accomplished nothing. The ONLY reason that it worked militarily had much less to do with the influx of more troops than the buying off of the Sunni insurgents. The moment that money stops, the neighborhood killings, the road side bombs, the suicide bombings and more will quickly ratchet up to previous levels. A little payola is not going to heal hundreds of years of hatred and murder. Obama understood far better than McCain that any supposed success the so called surge had, was, at best, ephemeral in nature – not likely to last beyond the end of the payoffs.

    The polls remain perplexing, with most showing Obama leading about everywhere important by a comfortable margin excepting the AP Poll which shows Obama clinging to only a 1 point lead nationally.

    Should Obama lose, race will have been a factor, but not the only factor. Another major factor may well be the Republican efforts to disenfranchise hundreds of thousands of votes in places like Ohio, Florida and other states.

    John Kerry lost Ohio by something like 120000 votes. The Republicans managed to disenfranchise around 200000 mostly urban, mostly minority, mostly Democratic voters in 2004. They are attempting the same tactics again.

    Dave and many others have been screaming bloody murder about ACORN’s supposed voter fraud. First: ACORN has not been directly charged or convicted of anything. Secondly, the individuals who have been found guilty of misdeeds have been convicted of “voter registration” fraud. That is NOT the same thing as “voter fraud.” There is no evidence that even 1 fradulent vote has been cast owing to ACORN’s efforts. Mickey Mouse has not as yet turned up to vote.

    Anytime apparent or suspected voter registrations have turned up, it has been ACORN that has separated them and brought them to the attention of the registrars upon delivery. By law, ACORN cannot remove any of those registrations. It is the sole purview of the respective registrars to filter through those registrations and determine which are, in their opinion, legal or fraudulent.

    It is Republican efforts to disenfranchise voters that has has a far more deliterious effect on elections than anything supposedly perpetrated by ACORN. The outrage against ACORN is simply a distraction, a mis-direction and a strawman argument.

    Fortunately, the Obama campaign filed suit against Ohio Republicans which managed to block their efforts to further disenfranchise voter registrations in that state. The weak-kneed Kerry organization did nothing. Their candidate lost. Obama will not be bullied.


  • How thoughtfula nd clear he was. How careful he was to explain his plan,

    Which as he explained it included taking away money from those who earned it and giving it to those who contribute nothing positive to the economy solely for purposes of forced equalization of wealth.

    and how he told “Joe” how he would benefit from capital gains cuts,

    Which are substantially lower than the Capital Gains cuts which McCain has proposed.

    and how he could hire more people and how more people could hire him

    Except that with the increase Obama plans for corporate taxes – already the highest in the world, there will be no one to hire him and so many large plumbing contractors will go out of business that he will be forced out of business by desperate fly-by-night competitors.

    and that was where the “spread the wealth” comment came in. And how McCain took that tiny piece out, made it a sound bite for ‘socialism’ and made the whole thing awful and evil and part of his hate mongering.

    The statement speaks for itself, Lisa. You’re faulting McCain for telling the truth.

    And then Joe turns out to never want to buy a business at all. To not even pay his taxes. To be a shill. A fake.

    There’s no evidence that he’s a shill or a fake. But they sure did a nice witch hunt to destroy the man.

    And John McCain uses this sham of a man to attack a man who was trying to be good and kind and decent.

    And a socialist, which negates all the rest.

    And how now this man, Obama, is being villified as a socialist.

    As he should be.

    It’s truly deplorable. And McCain and his running mate are in the thick of it.

    What is deplorable is how the MSM and the left have attempted to destroy Joe the Plumber and the fact that they think that Obama’s marxist past can just be wished away.

    It is his RECORD. It is his basic philosophy of government. It is not a smear, it is the most legitimate possible basis for campaigning against him.


  • There is no evidence that even 1 fradulent vote has been cast owing to ACORN’s efforts. Mickey Mouse has not as yet turned up to vote.

    Nice job repeating the talking point there.

    I’ll say it yet again. You inflate the voting rolls. Then your poll workers can stuff the ballot boxes and no one is the wiser. If they can’t pull it off safely, you then claim that all those extra bogus voters who didn’t show up were disenfranchised or kept from the polls.


  • “And we are to believe that McCain and Palin are like us.”

    Actually I’m a lot like McCain and Palin in that I smear my enemies with the truth of their sordid pasts. Funny how every person who opposes me also drops their pants at elementary school playgrounds and sets puppies on fire in their spare time. It can’t be coincidence!

  • You inflate the voting rolls. Then your poll workers can stuff the ballot boxes and no one is the wiser.

    Including you, Dave. You have no idea if this is being done or not.

    Like I keep saying… you Americans just should not be allowed to run your own elections!

  • Dr. D. Check the links I posted on Glenn C’s recent post. I know it’s being done. I just don’t know how much of it is going on without being discovered and I have no idea how bad it’s going to be this year – but I’m guessing worse than ever.


  • Blues
  • Cannonshop

    Nice links, Blues. Scripted events in the second one, but nice to see they’ll at least pay lip-service.

  • troll

    politics in America as represented by this election is so clearly corrupt at all levels that it is a wonder that any government that emerges is viewed as legitimate by we the people and by other world governments

  • Note to Palin–Using “bode” in a sentence:

    The polling of the last two weeks showing Obama up by nearly 12 points does not BODE WELL for McCain on November 4th.

    Sarah that’s how you use “bode” in a sentence. Not that garbled crap you were saying in your Brian Williams interview. Telling Obama that if he rejected Ayers in public it would bode well for him. Huh? I am paraphrasing.

    She needs to worry about the mote in her boat.


  • Lisa Solod Warren

    #12 Brillian Baritone, Thanks…

    And Dave, when Alan Greenspan goes national and says that his philosophy, ie., the philosophy of the entire US, the free market economy, DOES NOT WORK, withouy check and balances, without regululations, then perhaps, it is time to take a look at capitalism in general. I believe in it. But not run wild. Let’s see if we can find a way to have a free market that DOES model compassion, with rules (Ruvy, rules are necessary in a civilized society) that work for all.

    This is not scary socialism. It is merely a way of taking care of everyone, not just the rich.

    And joe the plumber was a fake. An unlicensed plumber who doesn’t pay his taxes now, illegally, and has no intention of even voting at all most likely, who hate social security even though it is supporting his parents, and who clearly was completely disinterested in what Obama was saying.
    A man whom the McCain campaign has used, yes, used, for their own gain, just to make LIV feel better about themselves.

    Which is a shanda. (Yiddish for worse than a terrible shame)

    BTW have you looked at the market this morning?

  • Clavos

    is viewed as legitimate by we the people

    Not all of us do, troll. I consider the elected clowns (and the bureaucrats, too for that matter) to be bastards, who, by definition, are illegitimate.

    If one considers that American governments are supposed to be “Of the people, by the people, and for the people,” we haven’t had a legitimate government in my entire lifetime.

  • Clavos

    She needs to worry about the mote in her boat.


  • Dave, you know nothing of the sort. I will restate: NOT ONE FRAUDULENT VOTE HAS BEEN CAST VIA THE EFFORTS OF ACORN. They are NOT guilty of voter fraud, nor is the organization guilty of voter registration fraud.

    YOU are the one who is repeating unsubstantiated crap in support of the systematic disenfranchisement of hundreds of thousands of Democratic voters. Without the removal of Democratic voters in Ohio and elsewhere in both 2000 and 2004, Bush would not have ever sat his gimpy little butt down in the Oval Office.

    There is evidence of further Republican voter fraud this time around. Republicans cannot win without cheating. That is the ONLY way McCain will prevail in November.

    BTW – Obama is NOT a socialist. Does he lean in that direction? Yes. It is evident that pure bred conservative capitalists haven’t the capacity or inclination to regulate themselves. Further government oversite is, for the near future at least, the ONLY way in which this economy will have even a ghost of a chance to right itself. Free market capitalists simply cannot be trusted. Your greed runneth over.


  • bliffle

    Baronius is erroneous again:

    “Lisa, Obama lost me back when he lied about the effectiveness of the surge in Iraq. ”

    Not a lie, a difference of opinion. Many experts give more credit to Al Sadrs unilateral ceasefire (which now looks like it will payoff in securing Al Sadr an important weight in Iraq politics) and the outright bribing of insurgent forces into the “Sons of Iraq” movement. As little as $300 is required to buy the loyalty of these worthies. You can guess how little would be required to switch them the other way. And, of course, they’ll revert to their old ways when the bribes are removed. One of the BIG problems of handing over control to the Baghdad Al Maliki government is that they are incompetent to run the bribe payroll.

    The potemkin surge was made to look credible by the bribes to insurgents.

  • Baronius

    Bliffle – Obama lied. He lied about the death toll under the surge, and about its effectiveness. He lied when he said that McCain wants a 100-year war in Iraq, rather than a quick end to the war with a possible extended presence.

    He has lied about his budget numbers, and about McCain’s fiscal plan (supposedly, to gut Medicare).

    Biden lied when he said that Obama never said he’d meet with Ahmadinejad. Obama said that during a debate with Biden, and Biden used the statement in his own campaign.

    McCain has spun things, as has Obama, but Obama and Biden have lied.

  • Baronius

    Baritone, what do you think is the purpose of voter registration fraud? It’s like copying down the combination to a safe: it only makes sense if it’s the first step in a larger crime. Yes, there’s been financial incentive to fill out fake voter registration forms, and that motivated some of the guilty parties I’m sure. But there are only two possible benefits to encouraging the registration of nonexistent voters. Either to claim afterwards that there was voter suppression and civil rights violations, or to falsify votes. It just doesn’t make sense otherwise.

  • What proof do you have the surge was what was effective?

  • Baronius

    “I think that the surge has succeeded in ways that nobody anticipated. I’ve already said it’s succeeded beyond our wildest dreams.” – Barack Obama, 2008

  • Bar,

    The sole “purpose” of the false registrations was so that the individuals who submitted them would make more money.

    They were submitted to the respective registrars with the suspect registrations flagged. I do believe that ACORN should figure out some way to clean up its act in this regard, but again, there is no proof whatsoever that ACORN orchestrated or encouraged these false registrations. And, again, there is no evidence that ANY fraudulent votes have been cast via any of these bogus registrations.

    The voter suppression charges have come prior to the election. All registrations must be recorded within 30 days of the election.

    Republicans have successfully disenfranchised hundreds of thousands of Democratic voters in the last 2 elections and seek to do so again this go round. Whatever it takes, huh?


  • Lisa Solod Warren

    Baronius: That is PROOF. Look, Baritone is right. The surge was less successful than other elements but Obama is right, too. It succeeded beyond wildest dreams….because wildest dreams were pretty limited.

    Basic premise: we weren’t to be there in the first place.

    BASIC BASIC PREMISE: You and others are getting off topic.

    Even McCain’s own rats are leaving his sinking ship. The ship is foundering, the pirates are clueless, there is no direction except hate and fearmongering. Attack after attack. No message. And now a young girl makes up an attack and McCain and Palin believe her and go to her aid. Campaign workers flog it to the media when anyone with half a brain can smell a sick young woman and a fabricated story…..

    But all black men are rapists and Obama is unAmerican and liberals eat their children and New York, except for Saks and Nieman’s is useless.


  • So you’re proof is the words of someone you claim to be a liar? Thanks for reminding to stop asking you questions.

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    There was supposed to be a question mark after my remark That is PROOF?

    El Bicho: Were you talking to me?

  • Nope, I hadn’t read your comment. It was directed at Baronius. I requested proof and he offered the words of a man he considers a habitual liar through the campaign.

  • Baronius

    Bicho – It’s not so much a proof as just pointing out the internal inconsistency of your position. You’re defending Obama’s stances that he’s not even defending any more.

    The success of the surge is well-documented. The only thing I can guess is that you’re distinguishing the increase in troops from the tactical and policy changes which are collectively referred to as “the surge”. Particularly important among those policies has been the coordination of coalition and Iraqi troops in joint patrols.

    I don’t think that Obama is a habitual liar. He’s been willing to lie when it’s convenient.

  • Hugo Chavez, the highly popular glorious leader of Venezuela, called U.S. vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin a confused “beauty queen” on Friday after she said he was a dictator. President Chavez? A Dictator? Perish the thought. He is my hero, and now that he has spoken I shall immediately try to change my vote. Obviously, he is right when he says, “We need to say as Christ did: Forgive her, she knows not what she’s saying.”


  • Clavos

    I think that when The Messiah finally ascends to the Golden Throne of the USA in January, he should invite El Chango Chavez to be one of his top advisers, charging him with ensuring that he (The Messiah) never rules against the interests of Venezuela, which is after all, the Most Democratic Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela, and a force to be reckoned with.

  • Chavez could certainly advise an Obama administration on how best to silence the opposition press.


  • Cannonshop

    What opposition Press, Dave?

  • Clav,

    Re Comment #38, don’t be silly. There would be no need to have Glorious Leader Chavez do that, it’s a given. He would instead be in charge of reforming the educational process in the U.S. to bring it up to Venezuelan standards. It promises to be a difficult task, but I am confident that he would have lots of help.


  • I forget how desperately in need of good old marxist reeducation so many Americans are.


  • Arch Conservative

    A few Obama quotes for you Lisa………

    “I’m going to take those oil company profits.”

    “we’re going to spread the wealth around”

    Sounds pretty fucking socialist to me.

    What gets me is when you idiots compare Barry to socialist leaders in other socialist nations and somehow this comparison is proof that Barry is not a socialist.

    Duh…..Mainstream socilism has never been an integral part of the American society and most Americans would like it to stay that way. Of course Obama can’t come out and admit he’s a socialist. He’d stand a chance of winning. But every once in awhile the masks slips and he lets us know he plans on “spreading the wealth around.” That coupled with actual examination of his past and past asssociations reveals to us who he truly is. The radical leftists who want to transform America into a socialist state know that they can’t do it over night and they can’t be honest about people with it. So they’re sneaking people like Obama in who will gradually implemenet more and more socialist policies.

    As for Hugo Chavez…….Pat Robertson had the right idea about how to deal with that fat sack of shit.

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    Dan, Clav, Arch: WHAT is this pre-occupation with Venezuela? Are they going to take over America? I hadn’t heard. I lived there in 1971, in the house of a family whose father was a government minister. We could not go anywhere without bodyguards, multiple. The country was a mess. Believe me when I say it wasn’t any better.

    And good Lord, Chav, stop with the Messiah business….. enough.

    Oh, you poor men and your socialism fears…. get over it.

  • Jet

    Archness, I could take a dozen quotes from you comments out of context and make you look like anything from a screaming fairy to a “liberal”.

  • Arch Conservative

    I’m not obsessed with Chavez Lisa….I was just responding to someone having brought him up earlier on the post.

  • Chavez is just a convenient example of how socialism can go wrong. If you prefer we can look to Argentina where mad socialist President Christina Kirchner is launching a plan to nationalize private pension funds, something which some Democrats are now suggesting would be a good idea for US pensions and 401Ks.

    That such a thing could even be considered here in the US is why I oppose Obama because he might not veto that kind of madness if it came out of Congress.


  • Clavos

    Democrats are now suggesting would be a good idea for US pensions and 401Ks.

    If that even begins to look like it’ll become law, we’re headed for the Caymans, Dave.

  • Clavos

    Sorry, Lisa, but I have no intention of stopping with the Messiah thing; it fits Him too well, which, of course, is why Farrakhan said it in the first place.

  • Clavos

    Dan, Clav, Arch: WHAT is this pre-occupation with Venezuela?

    Lisa, WHAT is this preoccupation with Obama?

    As a Mexican citizen, I’m very interested (and yes, preoccupied, if you will) with Latin America; probably more than the USA. I live in the USA, but LatAm is home.

    I can’t speak for Dan and Arch.

  • Arch Conservative

    I just don’t like watching that fat self-righteous, socialist prick as he ridicules America with glee.

    I’m not the only one who dislikes Chavez. I seem to recall King Juan Carlos of Spain telling Chavez to shut up at a summit meeting last year.

    I’m sure there’s no shortage of people in Venezeula that don’t care for him either despite the fact that he’d have the world believe that Venezeula is well on it’s way to becoming some sort of Shang gri la under his leadership.

    I must admit I’m not as up on Venezuelan politics as most foreigners are on American politics but that’s to be expected given the amount of respective influence that America and Venezuela have on the world. But what I have read and learned of Chavez paints him as the typical dictator who is more than happy to give his people crumbs as long as they worship him without question.

    Stories of people disagreeing with Chavez being harassed, prosecuted and imprisoned do not speak well of Chavez.

    I’d say life is much better here for the average critic of Bush than it is in Venezuela for the average critic of Chavez.

    Stories of human rights being violated…….

    Google caracas nine to see what Chavez has been up to

    But hey Sean Penn, Harry Belafonte and Danny Glover have vouched for Chavez so he must be a good guy right?

    All I can say is that if I were elected president in two weeks and that fat fuck opened his mouth one more time to bash America he’d be pushing up daisies before the new year.

  • moon

    I see the Good Ole Redneck Carl Hiassen Escapee Squad is at it again with the HATE posts against Venezuela.

    YOU self-righteous capitalists [Edited] are easy to ridicule because you are RIDICULOUS, Arch. No one can really be ridiculed if the shoe doesn’t fit.

    Chavez was much too kind to the little Table Dancer in Red Leather. After all, she did make a hate speech similar to the envious drivel that passes for international political commentary on this pathetic thread.

    Arch, I do hope that you realize that every time you open your fat mouth and call for the assassination of Chavez you are breaking international law. Keep it up and I will not have to boil you and put you in the blender to make salsa, after all.

    Chavez is above all of you petty sycophants like ice cream is above chicken shit (I am quoting another of my grandmother’s favorite phrases). He also replaced Eric Clapton as God almost 10 years ago. Get over it. [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

    My final comment on this is that Das Kapital was sold out this week all over Germany and is being reprinted like mad to meet overwhelming demand. If you don’t believe me, Google it.

    Marxist texts are making a comeback all around the globe–not just in Germany.

    I am by no means a Marxist, but I have always been smart enough not to stick my fingers in my ears and squeal like a stuck pig when someone mentions an alternate way of doing things, things like LIVING, esecially.

  • President Chavez is a compassionate, wise leader. He is already deciding on the sacrifices which he and the rest of the glorious Venezuelan leadership will have to make to deal with the economic crisis. I am so proud of him. The link was translated from Spanish, which is here.

    Long live the Revolution!


  • My final comment on this is that Das Kapital was sold out this week all over Germany and is being reprinted like mad to meet overwhelming demand.

    It must be one of this year’s Literature set books in the Gymnasien.

  • Clavos

    That’s a great cartoon, Dan(Miller); very funny satire with more than a grain of truth in it.

    The English translation’s decent, too.

  • And a further pat on the back for President Chavez. He knows how best to deal with the opposition. While

    Human rights groups say Chavez has increasingly exerted control over branches of power such as the judiciary and become intolerant of critics in almost a decade in power,

    these squalid right wing organizations don’t know anything.

    Opposition leader Manuel Rosales, who lost to Chavez in the 2006 presidential vote, is governor of the oil producing state of Zulia and is running for mayor of its capital Maracaibo.

    “I am determined to put Manuel Rosales behind bars. A swine like that has to be in prison,” Chavez said.

    Chavez is our kinda guy.


  • Cindy D

    McCain Socialist (or reformed socialist)?

    John McCain’s socialist agenda.

    John McCain On Taxing Rich People

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    Gee, Clav, I think the preoccupation with Obama is that he is one of two presidential candidates.

    Hmmm, if Chavez is so bad, we should take him out, after all he did that with Saddam and look at how well it worked. Oh, it didn’t?

    There are many regimes we don’t like. We didn’t particularly like the former French president, did we? So what? NO COUNTRY LIKES BUSH AND THEY ALL MAKE FUN OF HIM in similar ways as to what you are doing to Chavez. BFD.

    And as for rights? OUrs have been nicely eroded under Bush/Cheney. I am hoping to get some of them back. (Are you monitoring this chatter, Dick?)

    Gee, Dan, know anyone in OUR government INTOLERANT of critics? Hmmmmm.

  • Arch Conservative

    Ted Kennedy could make every last poster on this website happy if he would just agree to take Chavez, Bush, Obama and McCain on a scenic driving tour of cape cod in his 67 olds.

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    Jesus, Arch, the guy is dying, leave him alone.

  • Arch Conservative

    Nah I don’t think I will. Contracting cancer does not absolve a murderer of their sins Lisa.

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    I guess that makes Laura Bush a “murderer” too, then….. by your view.

  • Clavos

    Did Laura drive off a bridge with a boy in her car, leaving him to drown?

    When did that happen? I missed it.

    And I thought she’s a nice old lady…

  • Jet refers to Laura running a stop sign and killing a driver back in 1963.

  • Jet

    Huh? what? Laura? This is what I get for missing staff meetings?

  • Jet

    Stop sign?

  • Jet

    Rob let Laura Petrie drive the car and she hit this georgious ’59 Cadillac Eldorado Convertible, sea green with a white convertible top, you the one with the big fins and the jetfire tail lights?

    Oh it was horrible, he was so handsome and she ruined his tuxedo too.


  • Jet

    That’s true Laura Bush did kill someone while running a stop sign… unfortunately

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    When she was seventeen Laura Bush killed a boy in a traffic accident. Yes.

  • Arch Conservative

    Only Laura Bush wasn’t drunk and didn’t pass up the opportunity to save someone’s life so that she could go home sleep until she was sober, consult with her political handlers and then report the incident.

    Oh and Laura Bush isn’t an elected public official.

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    It’s still not murder, Arch.

  • Cindy D


    Did you see either of the McCain videos I posted above? #57

    We have always had a progressive tax system in this country. Therefore, we have always “spread the wealth around”. McCain knows it and you know it Dave.

    The only reason Obama is gets the “socialist” label is because the “liberal” label didn’t work, followed by the “anti-American” label, now its the “socialist” label. Let’s see if they drag out the “communist” label in the next 9 days.

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    Absolutely agreed, Cindy. McCain is all about scaring people. I know, I make calls to the undecideds and I have already heard them call Obama a communist. SAll Obama wishes to do is return tax policies to Clinton times….but NO ONE can listen because McCain has made them all too hysterical…… whipping people into a frenzy of fear.

  • Cindy D


    It takes a lot of patience, doesn’t it? Here I am still talking to people who object to Obama because:

    A) He’s an Arab
    B) He is related to Osama bin Laden
    C) He’s going to be sworn in on the Qu’ran
    D) He has “ties” to Al Qaeda
    E) “Just look at his name. How can anyone vote for someone with a name like that. Besides John McCain is a war hero.”

    Makes me want to run screaming.

  • Jet

    What most don’t know is that there’s a (II) after his name, he’s named after his father 1st, middle, and last name.

  • Cindy D

    Actually Lisa,

    Come to think of it…how stupid do you actually have to be to remain convinced that giving your money to the rich is the only thing that will keep you free?

  • Cindy D

    Of course you know I don’t mean “you” but the collective. I should have written “one”.

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    Bien sur, Cindy. I am not one of those you believe that all comments are directed at ME.:)

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    Oh My God, I just had a great idea. Thanks, Jet, for reminding me.

    let’s rename Obama, Junior. That way all the Southerners (and yes, I am one) will embrace him as one of them and it will be a shoe in. NO MORE Hussein, no more funny name. He’ll be a Junior like the rest of the South.


  • Clavos

    how stupid do you actually have to be to remain convinced that giving your money to the rich is the only thing that will keep you free?

    Depends on whether you’re rich, I would think.

  • Jet


    If the government gives money and tax breaks to the rich, they’ll

    A. invest it in businesses and jobs

    B. Use it to move factories to China and Indonesia where labor is cheap and profits are high

    C. Stick in their pocket, because the middle class doesn’t know how to invest their money.

    It’s a scam and a lie that the rich pay more in taxes than the rest of us. On the tax charts it may say that, but their accountants make sure they earn their fees by producing enough deductions so that they pay little or no tax at all.

  • Cindy D

    D. Use it to buy up all the depressed real estate and stocks from the poor bastards who just lost all their value.

    When the market is confident–sell. When the market shows fear–buy.

  • Clavos

    When the market is confident–sell. When the market shows fear–buy.

    You sound like a player, Cindy?

  • Cindy D

    Not any more Clav. The stock market proved to big a beast for my limited comprehension. It proved to be more gambling for tidbits like me, who put my couple bucks down on black in 2001. You are either extremely astute or you are swept out like the rest of the less than in the “know”.

    How’d you like to buy my day trading library?

    When the market is confident–sell. When the market shows fear–buy.

    A paraphrase, but that’s warren Buffet speaking.

  • Cindy D

    Yes, I know it’s “too” not “to” (my humble apologies) 🙂

    The market has an idiom for what it does to shrimps in the league I played in–it’s called “shaking them out”.

  • Clavos

    No thanks on the library, Cindy, I learned that lesson long ago and hired a pro to handle it for me several years ago. He’s a good one; did very well for several years. But, this year has been a bear (pun intended) for the pros, too. I’m down 34% so far.

    PS – I know that’s Buffett’s mantra. Supposedly, he’s bought several billion in the last few weeks. If I had his stash, i would too.

  • moon

    As usual, folks who have never even been to Venezuela–or like our political editor who insisted it was in CENTRAL America (I am still giving Nalle the horselaugh for his claimed expertise on a country whose continent he couldn’t identify correctly)–are so envious of a non-white guy with power and influence that they foul their Depends almost daily trying to make fun of someone so far superior to them that he makes them look just like the incontinent slobbering geezers
    that they are.

    Have a good one, geezers. The Gang and I are making chicken stew with parmesan dumplings.

    Sure beats rightwing pablum with microwaved week-old nuggets.

  • Cindy D

    Warren Buffett: Now’s the time to be greedy when others are fearful

    The problem I have with that is the same problem when the Nasdaq took a nosedive in 2001. In order to maximize profits, especially in a volatile market, big money players constantly suck in and then shake out little players.

    shake out = manipulate a stock so as to induce fear (for those less experienced than Clav or me)

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    If Obama is a socialist, how come so many wealthy Americans support him? I told the story of my father on another site to make such a point. And look at Warren Buffett…. and many others. Look, guys, you are just falling for McCain’s bullshit. I really don’t get it.

    And re the stock market: either you play or you don’t. THe thing is if you’re in for the long haul, you make money for the long haul…. and you lose for a while. And if you have a decent or good advisor you don’t lose your shirt. I’m down but not out. Not by a long shot. And over the past 15 years I’m way up. Way more up than if I had put my money in a CD or under the mattress…

  • re: socialism. it isn’t just mccain’s bullshit, this meme has been whipping around the conservative echochamber at the speed of light….too bad that what obama said in the joe the plumber incident had more to do with adam smith than any socialist.

    just another example of “nothin’ there” in the mccain campaign.

  • Here is a link to a 2001 radio interview in which Senator Obama expressed his views on the need for more redistribution of wealth. The cited link provides a link to the audio. As I read the text of the interview, it seems clear that Senator Obama desires substantially more redistribution of wealth than there has been. Whether one considers this a good or a bad thing, it is well worth reading (or listening to) Senator Obama’s views. The text of the interview, which is said only recently to have become available, is quite prominent on the “right wing” blog sites this morning.


  • It takes a lot of patience, doesn’t it? Here I am still talking to people who object to Obama because:

    Cindy, where on this thread, or this site for that matter, have there been people seriously saying any of the silly things you claim to be arguing against?


  • Cindy D


    Lisa was saying what kinds of objections she was hearing from independent voters during her telephone canvassing.

    I was referring to what I have been hearing from people in my county, Sussex County, NJ. Not Blogcritics.

  • Cindy D

    Sorry, “here” was vague.

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    Gee Dave, that was JUST the point of my Opinion article. That McCain and Palin and the RNC are whipping up such innuendo and misinformation that people are extrapolating all kinds of things, and yes, just such claims have been circulating about Obama all OVER the web and all OVER Fox News and Rush and so forth. In fact, at a Palin rally the guy who introduced her made it a point to use Obama’s middle name and emphasize it and there are bumper stickers all over with Obama/Osama on them.

    No, no one on this SITE has been saying that he is those things…..but the point of the my article was that the hate from the other side has ratcheted up so dangerously and the information is so false and so associated with character rather thann issue that it amounts to assassination.

    So Cindy’s response makes sense to me, certainly. And I would assume to others. I would think, too, that it was at least partially responsible for that poor girl’s ridiculous stunt that caused all the brouhaha that followed your story…. She never would have come up with such a stunt had the country not been thrown in such a tizzy by the Republicans with their hate campaign and ugly rallies. Even if only a handful of people get ugly and out of whack that is a handful too many.

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    Ok, Dan. I read the interview. And I read the indignant screed that went with it. I personally think that particular interview can be quite liberally (in the traditional sense of the word) interpreted. I won’t do that right now as I am under deadline, but I think you, as a lawyer get where I am coming from. I am happy to do so later when I am done.

    What do others think?

  • Clavos

    Screed aside, Obama’s own words in the interview speak volumes as to his objectives that can be termed to be “socialist.”

    That he thinks that equality for minorities should transcend the generally accepted standard of equality of opportunity to include government dictated economic equality is extremely disturbing to me. In the interview, Obama says, the Supreme Court never entered into the issues of redistribution of wealth…It didn’t break free from the essential constraints that were placed by the Founding Fathers in the Constitution — at least as it’s been interpreted, and Warren Court interpreted it in the same way, that generally the Constitution is a charter of negative liberties: [It] says what the states can’t do to you, says what the federal government can’t do to you, but it doesn’t say what the federal government or the state government must do on your behalf.

    And later, You know, I’m not optimistic about bringing about major redistributive change through the courts. (All emphases added)

    From this and other utterances by Mr. Obama, it’s clear that he has as a principal goal government mandated and enforced redistribution of wealth, which is chilling enough, but even worse, he proposes to change the focus of the Constitution from its traditional emphasis on limiting the power of government to actually growing the power of government; in direct opposition to the intent of the Founders.

    An Obama administration will wreak (or at least attempt to wreak) fundamental and radical changes to the very principles on which the nation was founded. The changes he seeks will redound for centuries, and given the natural proclivity for governments everywhere to grow and abuse their powers, will likely ultimately result in a much less free USA.

  • Clavos

    I think it’s doubtful that many people intending to vote for Obama have even an inkling of how fundamentally he wants to change our system of government.

  • wow, it’s HyperboleDay! somebody pass out the party hats.

  • moon

    I believe it’s obvious that someone already did that.

    Most of the posters are wearing theirs.

  • zingzing

    jesus, clavos. just how the hell do you think he’ll make that happen? declare himself king? i think the american people are pretty wary of power-mad loons after the bush, junior debacle.

    somehow, if bush couldn’t totally destroy our government and way of life, i think we’ll be alright.

    so stop being a little sissy-pants. your trousers are covered in urine. it’s kinda gross.

  • Clavos

    Cute, zing. You’re kinda juvenile lately

    All he has to do is change SCOTUS sufficiently, and he’ll probably be able to appoint two to three justices in the next four years. Three could change the court totally.

  • zingzing

    well, good! it’s a fuckin conservative circle jerk up there right now.

    but that still doesn’t change the “fundamental… system of our government.”

    bush put his asshole(s) in the supreme court and, of course, all of us lefties howled, but has it really changed anything? not really. they’ve still got to play by the rules.

    and yeah, i have been juvenile lately, but you’ve been completely over the top in your outright ridiculous fear of obama. he’s not going to change the way that you live. he’s also not going to throw you in jail for no reason or listen to your phone calls. and he’s not going to snicker at everything.

  • moon


    Now, now.

    Folks have a perfect right to join the KKK and be scared of black people.

    Demonizing the source of one’s guilt is one of the key acts in Gringolandia.

  • bliffle


    Giving money to the rich in hopes of stoking the economy and raising employment is quite hopeless as a strategy (Econometrics has demonstrated that), but many people still subscribe to it.

    Even the kneebone-connected-to-the-shinbone kindergarten analysis favored by so many mental midgets, such as those on BC, can be used to illustrate that jobs are actually reduced.

    Because a businessman, confronted by a windfall government subsidy, will not start a business unless there are some customers for his product. And if there are no new markets and customers, then he will either bank the money (which is adverse to the intent) or he’ll take customers from a competitor, which he is well positioned to do since he is government subsidized, so his costs are lower.

  • moon

    Bullseye, bliffle.

  • Clavos

    Demonizing the source of one’s guilt

    You couldn’t be more wrong, moonie. The only members of my family actually born in this country were my parents – nobody before or since.

    I don’t give a rat’s ass about slavery OR the Indians, much less guilt.

  • Lisa, I live in the conservative heartland and I’ve never seen and osama/obama bumpersticker on a car, even with the crazies I hang around with. They’re too well informed for that. Overwhelmingly the concern about Obama is his socialism and his radicalism. Maybe folks up there in Virginia are more tuned in to the crazy fringe.

    Clavos, I wouldn’t worry that much about the Supreme Court. The conservative justices are now the younger ones, and most of those Obama would be replacing are left-leaning anyway.


  • zingzing

    gawd. he’s about as radical as a turnip and about as socialist as my big toe. you act as if an anti-american, anti-capitalism, anti-white black man is going to get elected to the presidency.

    get a goddamn grip.

  • Clavos

    Actually, his own words (and those of his wife, for that matter) indicate a streak of “anti-american, anti-capitalism.”

  • Zing. Give this radio interview a listen if you get a chance.


  • zingzing

    horseshit, clavos.

    where do you get the idea that working to improve america and capitalism is in anyway against those things?

    both have shitloads of problems, and that’s pretty goddamn obvious. we’re mired in a religious conflict abroad, we have a load of social problems at home, and the economy of the entire world is in the shitter.

    obviously, some things can be improved. and that’s not anti- anything.

    now if you want to quote him being anti-america or threatening to tear down capitalism, you go right ahead. you’ll have to heavily qualify anything you find, i’m sure.

    he’s a rich american. i highly doubt he wants to fuck himself.

  • Re my Comment #91, it was all just a law professor’s law speak, which has been misinterpreted. At least that’s the position taken by “A top legal advisor to Barack Obama, Harvard law professor Cass Sunstein.” I guess most anything is subject to degrees of misinterpretation. Clearly, everyone’s money is safe and we can go back to worrying about Governor Palin’s wardrobe.


  • the “conclusion” of the radio interview, the supposed socialist and marxist tendencies, takes the exact same leap of logic that the right wing blogs, media, and bogus mccain ads have taken post-joe the plumber.

    sorry, nobody’s buying it. no matter how many times it’s repeated.

  • zingzing

    dave, the “marxist” philosophy he is proposing is so goddamn mild, it wouldn’t even be recognized as such anywhere else. he’s talking about moving around a very small percentage of america’s wealth. that’s not socialism. moving 60-100% of wealth around is socialism. shit, we move 30% of it around right now.

    i don’t want to get into any serious numbers, because i don’t know those numbers, but i do know that what he’s talking about is not socialism. it does have some socialist qualities, but look at all the ways we do that already. having a few of these types of programs in place is not going to fundamentally change a damn thing.

    he also says it’s nearly impossible to actually get any of these ideas into practice. it’s not going to happen. if you were trying to scare me with this radio interview, it’s not that scary. in fact, it sounds downright responsible and, for lack of a better word, doubtful about america’s ability to handle even the smallest of changes without throwing a temper tantrum.

  • zingzing

    alright, i’m just going to go ahead and say what a lot of people already think.

    i don’t give one flying fuck about our richest 5%. not one. they can go fuck themselves. they don’t mean a damn thing to this election and they don’t mean a damn thing to me.

    i hope that obama takes as much of their money as he can without slipping into socialism and i hope it gives it all to the rest of us.

    if the rich assholes are going to cry about 3% of their money going elsewhere, well go get a goddamn diaper and poop and cry and act like babies all day long. god knows their maids will just clean it up.

    here’s the truth of the matter: the rich already have what they want. so fuck em.

  • troll

    …wake me up when he starts advocating the end to exploitation and commodity production

  • Clavos

    It’s not just robbing the rich, zing. The only part of that that really bothers me is taking away their incentive to start and expand businesses, which will ultimately harm the economy.

    And speaking of harming the economy, proposing to raise taxes on capital gains and corporations in the teeth of a recession proves he has his economics head up his ass.

    And, if you really read the link Dan provided, you see that he wants to give the government the kind of power over us that’s described in books like 1984 and Brave New World.

    Maybe you’re happy with the government constantly meddling and telling you what to do (didn’t you get enough of that with Bush?), but I’m not.

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    I predict that Obama will actually meddle less once things get straighted out.

    Betcha 50 bucks, Clav. Put it toward my yacht.

  • zingzing

    “[obama] wants to give the government the kind of power over us that’s described in books like 1984 and Brave New World.”

    please. stop it. that’s fuckin ridiculous and you know it. (but which link are you referring to? …gimme a comment #)

    “Maybe you’re happy with the government constantly meddling and telling you what to do (didn’t you get enough of that with Bush?), but I’m not.”

    the thing is, i don’t expect that the government is going to tell me what to do under obama. i don’t really even think the government has too much of an effect on me under bush, no matter how hard he tries.

    i do tend to see the effects of the city government, but they just make the trains run on some sort of time scale… which apparently they invented while on drugs, but whatever. the federal government, other than on tax day and election day, rarely seems to have much of an impact on me.

    the way i see it, obama will be more fair to more people, and he won’t fuck us all over like bush has. or at least he won’t do it on purpose… i can only hope that bush, deep down, truly hates america. either that or he’s (and everyone around him) is just an idiot.

  • troll and zingzing at once? Let’s get this party started!

  • Cindy D


    what obama said in the joe the plumber incident had more to do with adam smith than any socialist

    Thank you Mark for pointing that out.

  • Cindy D

    RE #118 (Part I)

    The only part of that that really bothers me is taking away their incentive to start and expand businesses, which will ultimately harm the economy.


    Worries along that line were expressed when Clinton took office. They were unfounded.

    The Clinton Presidency: Historic Economic Growth

    In 1993, President Clinton and Vice President Gore launched their economic strategy…After eight years, the results of President Clinton’s economic leadership are clear. Record budget deficits have become record surpluses, 22 million new jobs have been created, unemployment and core inflation are at their lowest levels in more than 30 years, and America is in the midst of the longest economic expansion in our history.

    In fact Obama’s policy looks very similar to Clinton’s policy detailed in this 1993 NYT article, only Clinton’s proposal would raise both middle and high income taxpayers and give tax breaks to the lowest earners:

    CLINTON’S ECONOMIC PLAN: Impact on Individuals; Middle Class and Wealthy To Bear Brunt of New Taxes

    I don’t think this is a coincidence as Clinton’s former advisers have become Obama’s current ones.

    Also see: Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1993

  • Baronius

    Dave, I just don’t get what’s supposed to be so bad in that radio interview. I guess this interview has been tearing up the internet. It’s edited to make him sound bad, and I guess it does economically, but he sounds legally more balanced than I’d expect.

  • Cindy D

    RE #118 (Part II)

    The only part of that that really bothers me is taking away their incentive to start and expand businesses, which will ultimately harm the economy.

    Let’s look back to 1990: Republicans argue that a budget forcing the very wealthy to pay higher taxes would be disastrous for an economy on the cusp of a recession, inhibiting investment and restricting growth.

    (out of order)

    But a bill like the one favored by rank-and-file Democrats that would tax the rich more heavily would almost certainly be vetoed by President Bush.

    Well, it wasn’t disastrous. It either had a positive or no effect. But, no negative effect is discernible, no matter which partisan one reads.

    In fact to those who still claim cuts in the taxes of the wealthy will result in a better economy, I present the following two repudiations:

    Number 1:

    Sluggish private job growth indicates failure of tax cuts Changes in tax law since 2001 reduced federal government revenue by $870 billion through September 2005. Supporters of these tax cuts have touted them as great contributors to growth in jobs and pay. But, in reality, private-sector job growth since 2001 has been disappointing, and a closer look at the new jobs created shows that federal spending—not tax cuts—are responsible for the jobs created in the past five years.

    Number 2:

    Myth: Tax cuts spur economic growth.

    Fact: High tax rates are correlated with economic growth.


    There is no historical evidence that tax cuts spur economic growth. The highest period of growth in U.S. history (1933-1973) also saw its highest tax rates on the rich: 70 to 91 percent. During this period, the general tax rate climbed as well, but it reached a plateau in 1969, and growth slowed down five years later. Almost all rich nations have higher general taxes than the U.S., and they are growing faster as well.

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    Thanks Cindy!

    PLEASE remember under Republican presidents Eisenhower and Nixon Americans paid VERY high taxes and growth of the middle class boomed.

    Please also rememember that BOTH Lincoln and Teddy Roosevelt advocated LABOR first and capital second….. and both were well respected Republicans.

    WHEN did the Republicans become the party of the RICH? Under Reagan. And it has been a disaster ever since.

    You guys don’t know your history.

  • Cindy D

    The rich do not create jobs because of tax cuts. Corporations create jobs when demand for their product goes up.

    When the average person can afford to buy things, demand for product goes up.

    My counter to the idea that the rich will just pull in their sails and not create any new jobs if you increase their taxes is:

    If you increase taxes on the rich there is MORE incentive to create jobs, because they have less wealth (albeit slightly less). Creating businesses that create new wealth for them is an incentive. Whereas if they are not taxed they continue to growth wealth without creating anything. Where is the incentive in that?

    John McCain owns more multimillion dollar houses than he can remember owning. How many jobs has HE created with his wealth? How many jobs has Warren Buffet created with his wealth?

    Jet pondered what the wealthy would do with tax cuts in another thread. I suggested they would buy up depressed real estate and stocks.

    I wonder if they even have the motivation to do that seeing as some of them cannot even remember how many luxury homes they already own!

    I am challenging the “conventional wisdom” of this belief, so anyone who cares to, please answer the question:

    Do the richest 5% of Americans actually create jobs?

  • Franco

    #115 — zingzing

    dave, the “marxist” philosophy he is proposing is so goddamn mild, it wouldn’t even be recognized as such anywhere else. he’s talking about moving around a very small percentage of america’s wealth.

    Come on honey, let me just put it in a inch or so, and if you don’t like it, I promise I will pull it right out.

  • Apparently what bothers a lot of people is his interpretation of the Constitution and the idea of ‘negative rights’ where he’s implying that the Constitution ought to have been written as a guarantor of certain government services rather than a purely structural document with limitations on government powers.


  • he’s talking about moving around a very small percentage of america’s wealth.

    An absolutely classic example of the group dynamic trumping the individual. What may be a tiny amount of the overall wealth of the nation could be devastating for the few individuals from whom it is taken.


  • Ms. Know

    I am so sick of her clothes coming up as an issue. I don’t think there’s one person who could honestly say they wouldn’t take clothes someone gave them. And if she were to be wearing rags, there would be something else for the liberal illuminati media to talk about. She said in her rally yesterday those aren’t even her clothes to keep.

  • Nevertheless, it does rather put John Edwards’s $400 haircut into perspective.

  • Cindy D

    Ms. Know,

    I am so sick of her clothes coming up as an issue.

    When you are portraying yourself as Ms. Average Joe, when the country is going to hell in a hand basket, don’t you think it’s odd to be so outrageously extravagant? How stupid is the McCain campaign?

    I don’t think there’s one person who could honestly say they wouldn’t take clothes someone gave them.

    You can’t even IMAGINE someone who isn’t filled with greed can you? I guess that comes with being a Republican.

    And if she were to be wearing rags…

    I didn’t realize her only other choice was rags. (boo hoo) I would have thought it would have been a mooseskin accessorized with a club.

    …those aren’t even her clothes to keep

    Yes, she has to donate them. But, “let them eat fancy clothes” doesn’t sound quite right.

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    They only said she would donate them AFTER all the brouhaha. I suspect she won’t give them all away, myself.

    And I don’t know a smart woman who can’t dress herself well on much less than 150,000. I certainly can. I haven’t spent that much on clothes in a lifetime. Good Lord. People buy HOUSES for less than that. Never mind that her make up artist was the highest paid campaign person for the first part of October.

    Ms. Know, I do my own hair and make up as do 99 percent of American women. Sarah Palin is a VP CANDIDATE, not a superstar. And BTW, those clothes and stuff were paid for by campaign contributions, which is unethical, if not downright illegal….

  • Cindy D

    What may be a tiny amount of the overall wealth of the nation could be devastating for the few individuals from whom it is taken.

    Yeah, well, what may be a tiny amount of the overall wealth of the nation has been devastating for the hordes from whom it already was taken.


    I thought you would have liked what Adam Smith said in wealth of nations. I guess you would just call him a Marxist.

  • Cindy D


    Jobs and Growth Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2003

    The president’s Council of Economic Advisors (hint: do not hire this group to help you with your family finances if you want to stay afloat) said that by the end of 2004 the nation would see the creation of 5.5 million jobs. To be perfectly fair, the CEA actually said back in 2003 that with no policy change there would be 4.1 million new jobs and the extra added kick from tax cuts would create another 1.4 million. But it still adds up to 5.5 million.

    We can afford to be charitable here because, no matter how you look at it, the economic advisors’ crystal ball was as accurate as predicting the Knicks would be NBA champs. Actually, you could argue that the Knicks will come closer, because total job growth nationwide was just 3.1 million. If you want to be happy with that number, go ahead. But it’s awfully hard to make the case that we needed tax cuts if they so miserably failed to deliver on their promises. (one apparent advantage of politics over sports: George Bush got to keep his job; Lenny Wilkens didn’t)…

    …Could it be that these tax cuts did exactly what they were supposed to do? Maybe it was just the name that threw us off. Had they been called the “Redistribute Income-from the Bottom to the Top” tax cuts or the “Let’s Starve the Government and Make it Easier to Privatize” tax cuts then we would have had an easier time measuring their success.

    Dave Nalle might reply: But that isn’t Marxism, it’s only Marxist when Democrats want to redistribute the wealth.

    Dave, Did you see the videos of John McCain discussing redistributing the wealth yet? You still didn’t say how that isn’t “Marxism”*.

    *You know I mean your (and the right-wing’s) new definition of Marxism Dave, not the real one.

  • Cindy D

    Oh and one more thing Dave: What do you make of Allen Greenspan, Warren Buffet, Colin Powell, Christopher Buckley, and others suddenly becoming Marxists?

  • Cindy D

    Liberals are dangerous to our economy. (GUFFAW)

    Democrats are not “real” Americans.

    Men and women in Iraq are fighting for…”our very right to be here today.” ???

    One might expect Republican partisans to agree with and/or ignore the first two.

    But, let’s utopianize the war? We can all then sing the star spangled banner and shed a proud tear over how patriotic we are.

    The right is insane.

  • bliffle

    Incidentally, here’s an excerpt from C Hitchens recent article in Vanity Fair :

    Vanity Fair: Banana Republicans

    Just listen to Christopher Cox, chairman of the Securities and Exchange Commission, as he explained how the legal guardians of fair and honest play had made those principles go away. On September 26, he announced that “the last six months have made it abundantly clear that voluntary regulation does not work.” Now listen to how he enlarges on this somewhat lame statement. It seems to him on reflection that “voluntary regulation”

    was fundamentally flawed from the beginning, because investment banks could opt in or out of supervision voluntarily. The fact that investment bank holding companies could withdraw from this voluntary supervision at their discretion diminished the perceived mandate of the program and weakened its effectiveness.

    Yes, I think one might say that. Indeed, the “perceived mandate” of a parole program that allowed those enrolled in it to take off their ankle bracelets at any time they chose to leave the house might also have been open to the charge that it was self-contradictory and wired for its own self-destruction. But in banana-republicland, like Alice’s Wonderland, words tend to lose their meaning and to dissolve into the neutral, responsibility-free verbiage of a Cox.

    “Voluntary” compliance is what Bush had used in Texas, as governor, which resulted in TX becoming about the most polluted state in the union. But Bush never admits a mistake so he is incapable of learning from experience.

  • bliffle

    A friend sent me this:

    Undecided voters, ponder the following:

    What if the Obama had paraded five children across the stage, including a three-month-old infant and an unwed, pregnant teenage daughter?

    What if John McCain were a former president of the Harvard Law Review?

    What if Barack Obama had finished fifth from the bottom of his graduating class?

    What if McCain had only married once, and Obama were a divorcee?

    What if Obama were the candidate who left his first wife after a disfiguring car accident when she no longer measured up to his standards?

    What if Obama had met his second wife in a bar and had had a long affair while still married?

    What if Michelle Obama were the wife who not only became addicted to painkillers but also acquired them illegally through her charitable organization?

    What if Cindy McCain graduated from Harvard?

    What if Obama had been a member of the Keating Five? (The Keating Five were five United States senators accused of corruption in 1989, igniting a major political scandal as part of the Savings and Loan crisis of the late 1980s and early 1990s.)

    What if McCain were a charismatic, eloquent speaker?

    What if Obama couldn’t read from a teleprompter?

    What if Obama were the one who had military experience that included discipline problems and a record of crashing seven planes?

    What if Obama were the one displaying publicly, on many occasions, a serious anger management problem?

    What if Michelle Obama’s family had made their money from beer distribution?

    You could easily add to this list. If these questions reflected reality, do you really believe the election numbers would be as close as they are?

    This is what racism does. It covers up, rationalizes, and minimizes positive qualities in one candidate and emphasizes negative qualities in another when there is a color difference.


    Barack Obama:
    Columbia University – B.A. Political Science with a Specialization in International Relations.
    Harvard – Juris Doctor (J.D.) Magna Cum Laude

    Joseph Biden:
    University of Delaware – B.A. in History and B.A. in Political Science.
    Syracuse University College of Law – Juris Doctor (J.D.)


    John McCain:
    United States Naval Academy – Class rank: 894 of 899

    Sarah Palin:
    Hawaii Pacific University – 1 semester
    North Idaho College – 2 semesters – general study
    University of Idaho – 2 semesters – journalism
    Matanuska-Susitna College – 1 semester
    University of Idaho – 3 semesters – B.A. in Journalism

    Education isn’t everything, but this is about the two highest offices in the land as well as our standing in the world. You make the call.

  • moon

    Even a dyed in the wool anti-intellectual should be able to have enough survival instinct about him or her to make that call, Bliffle.

    The problem is that being better than a terrible choiceisn’t the same as being a good one.

  • I’ve already seen that stupid email too, Bliffle. What your point, aside from promoting a bit of pointless Moveon.org propaganda?

    Wait, I just received an email from a partisan mailing list too. Here it is:

    What if the Los Angeles Times had video of John McCain toasting a known Islamic terrorist? What would the reaction be if the Los Angeles Times told everyone it had the tape, but refused the release the tape? And what if credible people who had seen the tape reported that other terrorists were in the room?

    This is not a hypothetical. This is actually happening. Only it involves Barack Obama. And the Los Angeles Times has admitted it has the tape.

    In 2003, Barack Obama lavished praise on Rashid Khalidi, a mouthpiece for Yasser Arafat. In the room were Weather Underground members Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn. It was all caught on video. The Los Angeles Times blandly mentioned the tape in passing a few months ago, but I’m told there is more to it than that — the tape shows enough sympathy from Barack Obama toward the causes of an Islamic radical that the American public has a right to see the tape.

    But the Los Angeles Times will not release the tape. Peter Wallsten, a reporter for the Los Angeles Times has seen the tape. He wrote about the tape.

    Email Peter Wallsten at

  • Baronius

    Bliffle, what does that post #140 have to do with race? How do you get out of bed in the morning, thinking that there are people who reduce Obama and McCain to their color? The idea that someone would be sick enough to send you that comment really perturbs me.

    What would I think of McCain if he were a black guy who served in Vietnam and made a career out of stabbing Republicans in the back? The same thing I think of him as a white one. The same thing I think of Powell, who fits that description.

    What if Obama were a white lawyer who had no experience outside government, and precious little inside it? I’d think about him the same as I thought of Biden 45 years ago.

  • moon

    Good lord, I can’t imagine anyone thinking of Biden 45 years ago.

    I can hardly place him NOW.

  • bliffle

    “In 2003, Barack Obama lavished praise on Rashid Khalidi, a mouthpiece for Yasser Arafat. ”

    Arafat? Our beloved friend and ally in reaching an Israel-palestine peace agreement?

    What happened? Did Bush denounce him or something?

  • christine

    Sarah Palin did use the word bode correctly in the sentence when she was Telling Obama that if he rejected Ayers in public it would bode well for him.

    look it up the word bode means a sign. It does not alway mean a negative sign. It can be a positive sign as well.

    Here is the definition for bode from Dictionary.com: a verb

    To be an omen; portend: The peace accord bodes well for the city under siege.