Re-reading Item #4, it still seems to me that you were claiming the higher moral ground (SFC SKI: It is a shame that mudslinging is the most noticeable aspect of US political campaigns), then pushing the smear with your quote and question.
But I've found that e-mails and quick posts are often mis-interpreted (by myself and others), so I'll take you at your word.
27 -
ajay
Aug 09, 2004 at 1:00 am
Kerry's military service should be subject to an examination, and also GW Bush's national guard service open to examination.
Open book makes any candidate more reliable. If they have nothing to hide and have told the truth, they have nothing to fear.
28 -
TJ
Aug 09, 2004 at 4:19 am
Why is it legitimate for the Democrats to question openly Bush's service record but not legitimate for independent Republicans to question Kerry's? Remember Terry McAuliffe, only the very Chairman of the DNC, repeating the charge that Bush was AWOL? The Chairman of the DNC!!
Democrats have been in the gutter for the past year repeating charges like that and inviting Michael Moore to sit next to Jimmy Carter at their convention. My heart just bleeds for them now.
29 -
Mikey
Aug 09, 2004 at 4:23 am
The truth is out. Kerry joined the navy when he heard he was going to be drafted because he thought he'd get safe duty there and could use his exploits for a later political career, just like his hero JFK. When he volunteered for the swiftboats, they were used only as reconnaissance and considered safe duty. Only weeks after did they start being used in deadly patrols and Kerry seemed to behave like a coward when confronted with the enemy. But he made sure to bring his camera with him to "reenact" his "heroics" after the fact. He ASKED to be awarded certain medals, something considered dishonorable in the military. His FITREPS were horrible and were awash in dings which ended all hope of advancement. The Navy gave him an early out, apparently happy to be rid of him. He then not only trashed his service, but the service of thousands of others by portraying them all as barbarians. He met with the VC in Paris. The VC used his testimony to break down American POWs.
Everyone here is fairly partisan, myself included. However, picture yourselves for a moment as an "undecided" voter who doesn't really follow politics all that closely. You see an ad run by the Swift Vets who all claim Kerry is lying about about his Vietnam service. All 250 or so of them. They've all signed sworn affadavits and have agreed to testify under oath about their statements. On the other hand, you have John Kerry, whose military record is in question. If all the Swift Vets are lying, all Kerry would have to do is fill out a two-page form to release his records in regard to what the Swift Vets claim he's lying about. But Kerry refuses to release those records to the public. What would you think?
I don't think withholding his records is doing anything to make Kerry look more credible in the public eye.
for all you waste of skin clowns who support Kerry....why not take a nice holiday and go over and visit the WAR CRIMES MUSEUM of VIETNAM and see the photos of John Kerry and Hanoi Jane Fonda they have up on the wall as people they honor as having helped them win the war although they were losing the vast majority of the battles,its a damned shame that americans are willing to forgive this because they hate Bush...you better be carefull what you wish for people...the worst thing that could ever happen to you and your families is that you just might get it...and with Kerry I'm sure you'll get it in the ass first.
Now it looks like Kerry lied about being in Cambodia on Christmas in 1968. He spoke in the Senate about it in 1986, but the men who served with him say it isn't true.
because of my background and very informal present day contact with the serving military me thinks the kerr camp doth protest too loudly.
kerry's best bet is to ignore the whole thing.
by the bye, getting the aircraft bush flew off the ground and back again, even in palm springs, requires a lot more brains, courage and skill than anything kerry ever did in vietnam or elsewhere!!!!!!!!!!!
34 -
barbara
Aug 10, 2004 at 11:49 am
because of my background and very informal present day contact with the serving military me thinks the kerr camp doth protest too loudly.
kerry's best bet is to ignore the whole thing.
by the bye getting the aircraft bush flew off the ground an back again, even in palm springs requires a lot more brains courage and skill dthan anything kerry did in vietnam
Why? Were Californians shooting at Bush in Palm Springs? I must have missed that.
36 -
walt
Aug 10, 2004 at 11:57 am
I can understand the hatred that most Democrats hold for Bush. However, after watching the DNC, speeches, etc. I think I have finally figured out why John Kerry flip-flops or always gives himself an easy out on any statement he makes on an issue. In my opinion, John Kerry does not have the courage to be un-popular. BTW, JK really should have addressed his political career during the DNC and not put so much emphasis on his 4 month tour in Vietnam.
37 -
R.montgomery
Aug 10, 2004 at 5:05 pm
Not only do I know many Vietnam veterans, I am one myself. I served two combat tours with the 5th Marines in '67 through '69. I can tell you that the argument against the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth is neither logical nor reasonable.
1) Despite the DNC's shrill response that none of these men served on Kerry's boat (save for Steve Gardener)and therefor are lying about "having served with" John Kerry, the truth is that these men DID serve in the same unit. As anyone who has served in the military will tell you, serving in the same unit is the same as "having served WITH." To my knowledge, none of these men, with the exception of Mr. Gardener, have ever stated otherwise.
2) Kerry's famous "Christmas in Cambodia" is clearly a blatant, outright lie. There is nothing Kerry can say to dispute this issue. Period.
3) The actual truth of Kerry's first Purple Heart is that he was, without question, treated by the unit's MEDICAL OFFICER, who was Lt. Commander Letson.
This is a matter of record and cannot be disputed. The fact that an enlisted corpsman signed the treatment document on behalf of Dr. Letson, does not change that basic fact.
4) The now famous "Rassman/Bronze Star" incident simply does not stand up to scrutiny.
According to Rassman's and Kerry's account, Rassman was blown overboard by the blast of a mine in the river. On the face of it, the story sounds reasonable, except for the details. Clearly, the mine blast did NOT damage Kerry's boat. In fact, the mine blast disabled one of the other boats THAT WAS THERE, ON THE SAME OPERATION. Which is to say, there were a lot of OTHER PEOPLE THERE WHO SAW WHAT HAPPENED. If the blast was so strong that it blew Rassman overboard, how can anyone argue that the crew members of the other boats were too far away to see what happened? After all, it was another boat that actually got hit by the mine.
I understand that many of you do not have any experience with mine blasts, shock waves, ect.. I do. For the blast to have been strong enough to pick a men up and throw him off a swift boat, he would have to be quite close to the blast zone. It is far more likely that Mr. Rassman lost his balance and fell off the boat when John Kerry accellerated out of the area, to escape what he probably thought was an ambush.
Kerry's biggest problem (and Rassman's)is that there were at least two other boats on the scene at the time. At least four other crewmembers were picked out of the water, just like Rassman was(The difference being that those crewmen were on the boat that actually hit the mine.). The crew members from the other boats have stated that there was no enemy small arms fire from either shore after the mine blew up. Since the other boats stayed at that location long enough to pick the crew members out of the water, board the stricken swift boat and tow it back to base, it is wholley unreasonable to suggest that they do NOT know what was happening. They certainly would be aware of a "hellacious fire fight" supposedly taking place less than 50 yards away!!
Nope, Kerry's a damn liar and now he's been caught. And all the King's horses and all the King's men cannot put Kerry
back together again!
38 -
Andy
Aug 10, 2004 at 6:23 pm
Served 1st cav division 66/67. Kerry aided and comforted the enemy upon his return incountry along with Fonda. He voted against most of all if not all of the weapon systems we have today. all of this is public knowledge. He should be labeled a traitor. this is all I need to know
39 -
Jon
Aug 10, 2004 at 7:40 pm
YOU Vietnam vets ROCK! It's VERY nice to see the voice of reason combating this tripe the lefties are spewing!! Kerry's record and actions speak for themselves..."UNFIT FOR COMMAND"! 'Nuff said...Thanks for all your service, vets!
While I thought at the time (and still do) that Jane Fonda was a Commie bitch who shouldn't have been let back into the country or jailed (or worse) when she got back, I see the Kerry situation as quite different.
He fought the enemy.
In my view, he fought for his country but disagreed with its government.
Isn't that what America is about?
43 -
Biggins
Aug 10, 2004 at 8:46 pm
It's easy for Kerry to prove everyone here is wrong, show us your records! President Bush showed all his records, even his dental records. No, he didn't serve in Nam, but he is not running his whole campagn on it either. Show us the records JFK - "Jane Fonda Kerry".
44 -
David
Aug 10, 2004 at 10:50 pm
What's most hilarious is these sleazey attacks on a combat veteran's decorations come from people whose candidate/President (plus his Vice-Prez and most of his other generation pals) all politically SUPPORTED the ware in Vietnam and yet AVOIDED serving there. Where's the outrage about W admittedly missing EIGHT months of National Guard "service."
What's refreshing is that these jokers do not understand -- even though it is being spelled out for them by General Zinni and John McCain -- that this kind of gutter attack will backfire -- that people find it repulsive. I guarantee you all Kerry needs to win this election is for 5 or 10 percent of Republicans to be appalled by the unnecessary and arrogant war which has destabilized Iraq, AND/OR to be angry about the squandered opportunity of four years of budget surplus being continued to help us prepare for the fully predictable budget crunch of the baby-boomer retirements. I dont even hang out with Republicans, and I know at least ten (some military officers, some intelligence officers, some "national security" academics) who quietly hope for W's defeat. I'm beginning to wonder if it will even be close.
45 -
er777
Aug 10, 2004 at 11:03 pm
Let me point you to John McCain's response to this garbage. Mudslinging of the lowest order , let's remember Willie Horton - that's OK come November we will be rid of the moron we have in the White House who was not elected but appointed. AND GUESS WHAT - IT WILL NOT EVEN BE A CLOSE ELECTION, polls notwithstanding. The harm that Bush has done to thus country's principles image and economy is so gargatuan as to be tragic
46 -
lighten up
Aug 10, 2004 at 11:24 pm
sheesh and i thought i needed a life -- you old farts need to understand: (a) vietnam is ancient history, and (b) US policy in Vietnam was obviously very very mistaken.
Whew. I would rather have a stalk of asparagus behind the President's desk than the idiot who slimed his way in there in 2000. LOTS of people carried cameras and movie cameras in Nam; I was at a 1966 slide show given by a Green Beret who had found time to take pictures. Duh - it was other people who took pictures of Kerry. What, you think he ran up to them and said, here's my camera, take a picture of me!
We know what Bush's record is like: it's non-existent. Poof! And NO ONE has stepped forth to claim that they actually served with Bush in that Air Guard unit. How many people would that be? 50? 100? 1000? No one. Ever.
Has Bush ever done anything to help this nation or his fellow man? 9/11? Excuse me? That guy who sat pretending to read a kiddie book for 7 minutes while the WTC burned - and then stayed 20 minutes more to sign autographs and chat? What sane person would do this? Do even rabid Freepers believe that Kerry would sit there like a deer in the headlights while the fucking WTC is being attacked?!
What idiot hiring manager would pick a Harvard MBA who had run every business he touched into the GROUND, to be CEO of America? Right-wing idiots and "Christians" that have nothing to do with Christ-like behavior. And if that weren't enough to tip the scales, we'll just (heh-heh) double team 'em, eh Jebbie-boy?
For God's sakes, people, he's put us half a TRILLION dollars in debt, declared war on half of the WORLD when we can't even handle Iraq, and tried to turn back every bit of social progress ever made by Democrats who had to fight tooth and nail to make it happen. We went straight off a cliff when this mumbling, coke-addled freak got Daddy's friends at the Big Courthouse to put him in charge. Don't let it happen again, because we are almost at the point where other countries won't lend us many.
I tell you what... I can't believe all the hatred directed towards a president who has seen us through the worst of times and I sure as heck DO NOT want a president who is nothing but an empty windbag who lies about everything and threw his purple hearts back into the face of AMERICA!!! I have NO respect for him and neither do any of the many Vietnam veterans I know. They despise him second only to Hanoi Jane Fonda!! And with good reason! I don't care if he went over there.. its what you DID over there.. there are MANY hero's that are the REAL thing. And by the way.. can you even imagine how utterly horrible it will be to have TERRRRAAAZZZZZZZAA Kerry as first lady? Laura Bush is a true Christian, ie: VERY Christ like woman and a genuine lady of the southern tradition. Notice will you please that these Kerry's are FILTHY RICH and I mean unbelievable. that they will CARE or have a single CLUE how the working man and woman have to live??????? COME ON!!! I will be PROUD PROUD to be an American with George W. Bush as my commander in chief.. If Kerry wins.. I will be sicker than I have been in a long long time.. THINK PEOPLE!! THINK!!!!!
49 -
Max
Aug 11, 2004 at 5:20 am
SWIFT BOAT VETERANS FOR "UNTRUTHS ABOUT KERRY" -- this group of Vietnam
vets is bought and paid for by Bush contributor and Houston homebuilder
Bob Perry (2/3 of group's funds are from Perry). GOP activist and
corporate media consultant Merrie Spaeth is listed as the group's media
contact. She pushed the spurious anti-McCain ads in the 2000 primary
which smeared McCain's military service. Similar tactics were used
against Georgia Sen. Max Cleland (who lost 3 limbs in Vietnam). (Bush
supporters used another smear tactic in South Carolina during the 2000
primary by posing as pollsters and insinuating that the child adopted
by John and Cindy McCain from Mother Theresa's orphanage in Bangladesh
was McCain's illegitimate black daughter. The child, Bridget, is
dark-skinned.)
NONE of the men in the ad were Kerry's crewmates. ALL of the men
supporting Kerry actually were crewmates. Earlier this year, veterans
who served or knew Kerry in Vietnam complained that a Dallas-based
private investigator (former FBI agent Thomas Rupprath) interviewed
them, "twisting their words" in an effort to malign Kerry.
About the vets in the TV ad:
GEORGE ELLIOTT -- In the 1969 U.S. Navy Officer Fitness Report signed
by George Elliott, he wrote "In a combat environment requiring
independent, decisive action LTJG Kerry was unsurpassed
emerges as the acknowledged leader in his peer group."
In 1996, during Kerry's re-election campaign to the Senate, Elliott
praised Kerry.
LOUIS LETSON -- asked to verify his claims that he treated Kerry, has
not produced any such documents nor is he listed on any documents as
having treated Kerry.
VAN O'DELL -- says there was no enemy fire yet official Naval documents
about the four boats involved in the March 13, 1969 incident
specifically details the boats received "Heavy A/W (automatic weapons)
and S/A (small arms) from both banks."
Describing that March day when he was blown off Kerry's swift boat by a
mine explosion, James Rassmann, a registered Republican who had not
seen Kerry for over 30 years until a reunion in Iowa 2004, noted that
bullets whizzed by him from both banks during the rescue by Kerry.
JACK CHENOWITH -- a "mysterious vet" who suddenly appeared from
nowhere to smear Kerry's account of what happened. But it's not Kerry's
account it is Admiral Elmo Zumwalt's and the Navy's account.
ROY HOFFMAN --In the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel (5/7/04) "Hoffman
acknowledged he had no first-hand knowledge to discredit Kerry's claims
of valor
didn't know Kerry much personally." Fellow vets described Hoffman as
"bloodthirsty, hotheaded and egomaniacal" and former Sen. Bob Kerrey (a
vet who served under Hoffman) said Hoffman was "a classic body count
guy."
ADRIAN LONSDALE -- in 1996, Lonsdale praised Kerry and "the courage of
young officers that ran the boats." (Kerry for Senate Press Conference
10/27/96)
BOB HILDRETH, LARRY THURLOW, BOB ELDER, JOE PONDER, GRANT HIBBARD were
NOT crewmates on Kerry's boats, yet the deceptive ad throws in their
opinions about Kerry's anti-war position after he returned from
Vietnam, as if they were stating fact about his Vietnam service.
In April 2004 the Toledo Blade was awarded the Pulitzer Prize for a
series detailing the atrocities committed by American soldiers in
Vietnam.
8/3/04 On Fox News' Hannity & Colmes, retired General and former
Commander in Chief of Central Command Tommy Franks said he believed
Kerry's summary of what other soldiers told Kerry about atrocities in
Vietnam. Franks added: "I'm not sure that -- that activities like that
didn't take place. In fact I'm quite sure that they did."
When George Stepanopolous on ABC's THIS WEEK asked Gen. Tommy Franks
"If John Kerry is fit to be Commander in Chief?" Gen. Franks responded
without hesitation, "Absolutely."
Jim Wasser, an actual Kerry crewmate, said: "If John Kerry came to us
and said he had one more mission and we're going to hell, he'd have a
full crew." --Dallas Morning News 7/29/04
50 -
steve
Aug 11, 2004 at 9:34 am
60 veterens contributed to this book, and I believe them. Kerry started all this crap by using his so called miltary record to get votes. Now we can all see kind of fake this guy really is. And his wife? What a discusting bitch she is
Laugh of the day: "Notice will you please that these Kerry's are FILTHY RICH and I mean unbelievable. that they will CARE or have a single CLUE how the working man and woman have to live???????" You mean, unlike the Bushs?
I sure as heck DO NOT want a president who is nothing but an empty windbag who lies about everything
Me, too, Sharon, but Bush still may get re-elected in spite of what we both think.
I'm confused about the medals, though - Bush was "AWOL in Alabama" so where would he have gotten medals?
53 -
boomcrashbaby
Aug 11, 2004 at 10:56 am
Max, (comment 49), thanks for the refutation of the swift vets. I hope you don't mind if I use this info elsewhere.
Hmm, which is worse? A Commander in Chief who's former military acquaintances (but not crewmates) are playing partisian politics in disagreeing with him, or a Commander in Chief who's own father thinks he's fucked things up? source
Don't you find it in any way enlightening that NONE and I mean NOT ONE SINGLE MAN In Kerry's chain of command finds him fit for the office of President??? I would say that is the most damning information to come to light. If even some had differed it would have been just like most things.. oppinion based on personal feelings but when NONE of them found the young and now the old John Kerry a good soldier? Again I say THINK! We are in a time of danger and unrest and I would be scared out of my wits to be under the leadership of someone who is UNFIT FOR DUTY and by his own admission got a silver medal for WHAT??? shooting a vc in the back as he ran away.. ohhh wow.. what a HERO... NOT!
55 -
jon thomas
Aug 11, 2004 at 1:00 pm
One person writes a book or makes a movie that casts President Bush in a bad light, Moore, Clark, Snow, Woodward, etc. and the media jumps on it as a great truism. When it turns out there are lies and exaggerations, the media ignores these facts. But when 60 Vietnam veterans, who served on swift boats challenge Kerry’s record, (Unfit for Command) they are condemned , called dis-respectful, un-American and so on. Why is it that these men do not have the same right to express their views against Kerry as others have against President Bush? John Kerry made his Vietnam service part of his campaign. If Kerry wants to stand on his Vietnam service, then he should sign the release and let everyone see his record and put an end to this issue.
BOB HILDRETH, LARRY THURLOW, BOB ELDER, JOE PONDER, GRANT HIBBARD were
NOT crewmates on Kerry's boats, yet the deceptive ad throws in their
opinions about Kerry's anti-war position after he returned from
Vietnam, as if they were stating fact about his Vietnam service.
They don't like what Kerry did after he got back, but that has nothing to do with whether he was a "good soldier" or not. In fact, based on Navy records he appears to have been an excellent soldier.
Don't swallow the spin from the right. He may or may not make a good president, but lies like this do not tell us anything about that one way or the other.
I'm a VietNam vet and this arrogant spin stuff from the Bush crowd is getting stupid. 1. Fact: Kerry served in combat; Bush did not; 2) Fact: We were in Cambodia but the American public was told otherwise -- I know because I was there and took care of troops who needed treatment; 3. Opinion: "The Unfit for Command" and Swift Boat oppos are working an agenda that does not even get close to meeting the standards that we fought for; 4. Opinion: Kerry stood up for and continues to stand for holding government accountable instead of going along to get along. Remember!
But HAL if he was genuinly a hero over in Vietnam, can't you see those men are trying to tell you that what he did when he got HOME was even worse!!!??? I cannot believe that people can watch John Kerry's own grandstanding never mind anybody elses' oppinion... what he did was nothing short of traitorous... I wonder how many lives he COST as opposed to the one he saved when he went on his little trip overseas to join in with our enemies to denigrate his own country? It's too bad we let him come back home from that one. I wish there was a way to say to people like John Kerry... if you don't like it here and you don't like us, your fellow countrymen.. if you aren't proud to be an American... well ok... you are now.. what you seemed to have wanted to be by your actions.. a man without a country. I don't want to give this man our entire country to run... I want a man in office who tells us and the rest of the world.. WE ARE AMERICANS AND DAMNED PROUD OF IT! Do we make mistakes? well YEAH.. does our President make mistakes.. welll YEAH.. why? because we are all HUMAN BEINGS!! However we are the greatest nation on earth for many reasons.. and I think we deserve a president who believes in US! pun intended and I KNOW we deserve a president who never for a second doubted us as a nation. John Kerry is on record as a traitor. Please, can't yall see that????
From a military culture standpoint, I think its worth clarifying that all the sailors mentioned, Kerry's crew and the Swift Boat Vets, served in the same unit. The crew as Kerry's subordinates, the SBVs as his peers and superiors. You can probably slice that fact about a zillion different ways.
64 -
Name
Aug 11, 2004 at 4:58 pm
comment 53:
really good source Capital Hill Blue - Now that's a news source I would base my voting information on.
65 -
boomcrashbaby
Aug 11, 2004 at 5:25 pm
to commenter 64:
I wouldn't base my voting information on a single article. I also wouldn't base it on Unfit for Command, since they both seem to stem from 'a really good source', to use your words:
From Wire Reports:
One of the authors of a new anti-John Kerry book frequently posted comments on a conservative Web site describing Muslims and Catholics as pedophiles and Pope John Paul II as senile.
The author of the book "Unfit for Command," Jerry Corsi apologized for remarks in an interview with The Associated Press Tuesday, saying they were meant as a joke and he never intended to offend anyone. He frequently posted comments on a conservative Web site (free republic) describing Muslims and Catholics as pedophiles and Pope John Paul II as senile.
In chat room entry last year on freerepublic.com, Corsi writes: "Islam is a peaceful religion - just as long as the women are beaten, the boys buggered and the infidels are killed."
In another entry, he says: "So this is what the last days of the Catholic Church are going to look like. Buggering boys undermines the moral base and the lawyers rip the gold off the Vatican altars. We may get one more Pope, when this senile one dies, but that's probably about it."
In this case, one news source is as good as another, huh?
66 -
david
Aug 11, 2004 at 7:13 pm
actually the level of discourse in here is sobering -- well, actually it's pretty fucking depressing. Some people seem to believe and accept ANYTHING if it confirms and supports their candidate preference, with no capacity whatsoever to consider whether its true or false, exaggerated or a flat-out lie. The room might do much better if it discussed actual issue differences: I mean, the reasons I oppose Bush have to do with (a) turning 4 years of surpluses and the best budgetary position in 50 years into record-high deficits, PARTLY through tax cuts half of which went to the top one percent who are already extremely wealthy (aside: between 1980 and 1998, the top one percent of Americans saw their family incomes ALMOST TRIPLE, while the median family barely kept even (by putting spouses to work and working 2nd jobs) and the bottom 25 percent saw actua; income declines. (Source: Ellen Frank, RAW DEAL, Beacon Press, 2004). And this was BEFORE the two Bush tax cuts. Why do extremely wealthy people need even more money anyway, when 20 percent of US children live in poverty and 15 percent (the working poor, not the bottom 15 percent, who have Medicaid and SCHIP) have NO health insurance -- in the richest country in the world.
(b) Invading Iraq when all our Arab and Muslim allies publicly urged us NOT to do it, Generals like Zinni said it was a terrible idea, area specialists said it was precisely what Bin Laden wanted us to do, and everyone understood it would distract us and divert resources from Afghanistan where the Taliban would re-group and re-emerge. This was a truly unnecessary war which may still have disastrous outcomes (civil war, fragmentation, Kurdish v. Shia violence) and it served no US interest. The neocons were pursuing the national security interests of Israel AS DEFINED BY SHARON AND LIKUD, and this is precisely why we are hated by more and more people in the Islamic world. These are real issues, and as a 20-year-old, I'm tired of my professors saying my generation will definitely see the use of a weapon of mass destruction in the US against the US. The Palestinians do have some valid claims and we need to use leverage with Israel to try to reinvigorate the moderate center in Israeli politics.
To be honest, I want to say WTF are you guys wasting your time talking about Vietnam for??????? No one under 35 cares, I assure you. And your generation was split not the middle, as this formum makes obvious. This kind of attack doesn't help Bush, it will further discredit him with anyone is actually undecided, and the venom with which people are spewing it is repulsive even kinda shocking. Why won't one of you Kerry-haters at least discuss why Bush's lame record during Vietnam isn't relevant and discrediting? I mean, whats with Bush, Cheney, Gingrich, Saxbe Chambliss, et al that these guys ALL favored the war in Vietnam, were of military age, and avoided serving there??? That doesn't slow down any of you guys who question somebody's three purple hearts and silver star??? Unfuckingbelievable.
67 -
mike
Aug 11, 2004 at 9:27 pm
Doesn't anyone care if this is true? Or why you can't hear about any of this on ABC/NBC/CBS. Sorry, I have no cable. I just found out today that Kerry wrote an anti-war book back in the 70's. How come you don't see anything about that on TV?
68 -
Jeff
Aug 11, 2004 at 10:43 pm
If everything in this Book is a LIE, or if only one little thing in this book is a LIE, sue them, show mr kerrys records.
I can't wait for that deposition!
But it won't ever happen, kerry doesn't have the manhood to hold up his end of the Alligator Mouth, he should just shut up and let Soros and Te RAH za pay (buy) him out of difficulty. He won't be shamed, it isn't in him he is a True SNOB, look up the definition of SNOB, it is an acronym, and it is true... he was, is and allways will be a SNOB.
Look... it goes to character... what you do when things are heavy is what your made of. Maybe your too young to remember Vietnam, and certainly you haven't learned to respect those older then you and wiser. John Kerry's character is such that he ASKED for those medals.. and was given them on the basis of false info. John Kerry's character is such that when he came home he betrayed his country and fellow soldiers. John Kerry's character and record in the time he has been in Washington show no character at all just wishy washy... just like him going to vietnam and then joining in with our enemies to whine and cry. Maybe SOME of this information is old... but John Kerry himself is running on no solid ideas but on the gold medals and on the blood of true war heroes. Even if some of this is "OLD news" to you, remember a man is as he does, and this man is clearly to me.. unfit for command and as a matter of fact I wouldn't care to have him as a friend. I have heard several times of his acting imperiously when met in person. Except for now of course when he wants to be the President. He is known to step into lines ahead of those already there and when they say what the heck!? he says do you KNOW who I AM????
Bill CLinton was the same in office, imperious and hateful. Those who have observed George Bush come away with nothing but praise, about his kindness to staff. He is what you see, an all around nice person. He is not a person who looks like a rich Bassett Hound with a wife whose nose is so high in the air it is a wonder she don't drown when it rains. Ok ok.. that last is mean of me but the other I do want to say clearly.. ALL of this information goes to show the character of this man and I for one.. see a fearful future if he is elected. He doesn't even know what HE stands for not to mention what AMerica stands for.
hey come on I said myself that wasn't nice of me. But my dear you failed to even absorb in the slightest the rest of what I said.
72 -
david
Aug 11, 2004 at 11:44 pm
sharon:
you refuse to make any comment at all about what it says about W's CHARACTER that he avoided service in Vietnam, a way he politically supported and still supports. This same CHARACTER "quality" you can see in Cheney (who also AVOIDED service in Vietnam), Gingrich (ditto), Trent Lott (ditto), Saxbe Chambliss (ditto, and this is the creep/US Senator who defeated Max Cleland by running commercials questioning his patriotism (a draft dodger questioning the patriotism of a triple-amputee Vietnam vet). How come almost all the "leaders" you guys follow and support are actual AVOIDERS of Vietnam service, and why can you say nothing about that odd coincidence or what it says about their character.
There is also one other point that you and most of those posting here who agree with you absolutely miss: to criticize the American intervention in Vietnam IS IN NO WAY TRAITOROUS, OR EVEN ANTI-PATRIOTIC. The war was a huge mistake, based on incredible ignorance of Southeast Asian historic realities.
You don't like his wife, and John Kerry probably is a snob and a cold fish socially -- but his intelligence is not in question, nor, in my judgment is his courage. He asked for the medals? Well, big f'king deal -- he ASKED to serve in Vietnam... he ASKED to serve in combat. When you get a candidate who did the same, let us know. Questioning the courage of this guy is the biggest tactical blunder you guys could possibly make. It might have worked for W's crowd to have phone banks in the 2000 SC primary make calls to voters and mis-describe the fact that the McCains have adopted a Bengali daughter by saying "McCain has a black daughter" but it ain't gonna work to say the USN passes out THREE bogus purple hearts, bogus Silver Stars, etc etc.
Have at it -- you guys have no idea at all how you come across to people under 35 or to people over 35 who see any shread of complexity or ambiguity in the Vietnam debacle.
I am very much against Bush's re-election, and have had no especially strong feelings for Kerry, but I havta say to see the venom and sheer rabid bullshit he's having to endure makes me respect him more for having to put up with this kind of crap. Of course the book and the ad campaign are financed by the same extremely wealthy people who benefitted from Bush's tax cuts for the highest-income one percent. Oh, you forgot to say anything about that, either.
This board makes me despair for democracy, but at least we're going to have an election that will tell us if Lincoln was right or wrong.
73 -
mike
Aug 12, 2004 at 12:20 am
I got a tax cut. I made about $80k last year. So I'm in the top 8.5% of all tax payers....the richest of the rich...Bush's buddies. Why should I feel bad about it? I went to college and got two engineering degrees. Why am I evil? Why should I pay more? Isn't the 28% bracket high enough for me? Why am I Kerry's target? What did I do?
74 -
Gaucho
Aug 12, 2004 at 2:20 am
Gentlemen,
I was a Scout pilot in Vietnam, for the First Cavalry Division. I am here to point out that reconnaissance missions are not for the faint of heart. They are not safe, by any means!
Pushing a small aircraft up a valley, or pushing a fiberglass hull up some river are risky procedures.
That said, I personally would not run for office based on my abilities to run patrols for a year, and certainly not if I opted out after a couple of months.
As for films -- when one hits the s***, there is too much going on to be taking pictures, never mind movies with an 8mm camera.
Even in its best light, Senator Kerry's posture over his service is inadequate for any decision on whether he could be a good President or not.
His record as Lt. governor of Massachusetts; his record in the Senate would be a better criteria.
During the convention, he and his handlers chose to avoid those criteria.
Whatever your thoughts are on the matter, I do urge one and all to go VOTE.
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - Hal Pawluk
Re-reading Item #4, it still seems to me that you were claiming the higher moral ground (SFC SKI: It is a shame that mudslinging is the most noticeable aspect of US political campaigns), then pushing the smear with your quote and question.
But I've found that e-mails and quick posts are often mis-interpreted (by myself and others), so I'll take you at your word.
27 - ajay
Kerry's military service should be subject to an examination, and also GW Bush's national guard service open to examination.
Open book makes any candidate more reliable. If they have nothing to hide and have told the truth, they have nothing to fear.
28 - TJ
Why is it legitimate for the Democrats to question openly Bush's service record but not legitimate for independent Republicans to question Kerry's? Remember Terry McAuliffe, only the very Chairman of the DNC, repeating the charge that Bush was AWOL? The Chairman of the DNC!!
Democrats have been in the gutter for the past year repeating charges like that and inviting Michael Moore to sit next to Jimmy Carter at their convention. My heart just bleeds for them now.
29 - Mikey
The truth is out. Kerry joined the navy when he heard he was going to be drafted because he thought he'd get safe duty there and could use his exploits for a later political career, just like his hero JFK. When he volunteered for the swiftboats, they were used only as reconnaissance and considered safe duty. Only weeks after did they start being used in deadly patrols and Kerry seemed to behave like a coward when confronted with the enemy. But he made sure to bring his camera with him to "reenact" his "heroics" after the fact. He ASKED to be awarded certain medals, something considered dishonorable in the military. His FITREPS were horrible and were awash in dings which ended all hope of advancement. The Navy gave him an early out, apparently happy to be rid of him. He then not only trashed his service, but the service of thousands of others by portraying them all as barbarians. He met with the VC in Paris. The VC used his testimony to break down American POWs.
30 - Evilwhiteguy
Everyone here is fairly partisan, myself included. However, picture yourselves for a moment as an "undecided" voter who doesn't really follow politics all that closely. You see an ad run by the Swift Vets who all claim Kerry is lying about about his Vietnam service. All 250 or so of them. They've all signed sworn affadavits and have agreed to testify under oath about their statements. On the other hand, you have John Kerry, whose military record is in question. If all the Swift Vets are lying, all Kerry would have to do is fill out a two-page form to release his records in regard to what the Swift Vets claim he's lying about. But Kerry refuses to release those records to the public. What would you think?
I don't think withholding his records is doing anything to make Kerry look more credible in the public eye.
31 - Brian
for all you waste of skin clowns who support Kerry....why not take a nice holiday and go over and visit the WAR CRIMES MUSEUM of VIETNAM and see the photos of John Kerry and Hanoi Jane Fonda they have up on the wall as people they honor as having helped them win the war although they were losing the vast majority of the battles,its a damned shame that americans are willing to forgive this because they hate Bush...you better be carefull what you wish for people...the worst thing that could ever happen to you and your families is that you just might get it...and with Kerry I'm sure you'll get it in the ass first.
http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/staticpages/index.php?page=20040604194804799
32 - Kerryisaliar
Now it looks like Kerry lied about being in Cambodia on Christmas in 1968. He spoke in the Senate about it in 1986, but the men who served with him say it isn't true.
http://www.unfitforcommand.us/modules/news/article.php?storyid=12
33 - barbara
because of my background and very informal present day contact with the serving military me thinks the kerr camp doth protest too loudly.
kerry's best bet is to ignore the whole thing.
by the bye, getting the aircraft bush flew off the ground and back again, even in palm springs, requires a lot more brains, courage and skill than anything kerry ever did in vietnam or elsewhere!!!!!!!!!!!
34 - barbara
because of my background and very informal present day contact with the serving military me thinks the kerr camp doth protest too loudly.
kerry's best bet is to ignore the whole thing.
by the bye getting the aircraft bush flew off the ground an back again, even in palm springs requires a lot more brains courage and skill dthan anything kerry did in vietnam
35 - Hal Pawluk
Why? Were Californians shooting at Bush in Palm Springs? I must have missed that.
36 - walt
I can understand the hatred that most Democrats hold for Bush. However, after watching the DNC, speeches, etc. I think I have finally figured out why John Kerry flip-flops or always gives himself an easy out on any statement he makes on an issue. In my opinion, John Kerry does not have the courage to be un-popular. BTW, JK really should have addressed his political career during the DNC and not put so much emphasis on his 4 month tour in Vietnam.
37 - R.montgomery
Not only do I know many Vietnam veterans, I am one myself. I served two combat tours with the 5th Marines in '67 through '69. I can tell you that the argument against the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth is neither logical nor reasonable.
1) Despite the DNC's shrill response that none of these men served on Kerry's boat (save for Steve Gardener)and therefor are lying about "having served with" John Kerry, the truth is that these men DID serve in the same unit. As anyone who has served in the military will tell you, serving in the same unit is the same as "having served WITH." To my knowledge, none of these men, with the exception of Mr. Gardener, have ever stated otherwise.
2) Kerry's famous "Christmas in Cambodia" is clearly a blatant, outright lie. There is nothing Kerry can say to dispute this issue. Period.
3) The actual truth of Kerry's first Purple Heart is that he was, without question, treated by the unit's MEDICAL OFFICER, who was Lt. Commander Letson.
This is a matter of record and cannot be disputed. The fact that an enlisted corpsman signed the treatment document on behalf of Dr. Letson, does not change that basic fact.
4) The now famous "Rassman/Bronze Star" incident simply does not stand up to scrutiny.
According to Rassman's and Kerry's account, Rassman was blown overboard by the blast of a mine in the river. On the face of it, the story sounds reasonable, except for the details. Clearly, the mine blast did NOT damage Kerry's boat. In fact, the mine blast disabled one of the other boats THAT WAS THERE, ON THE SAME OPERATION. Which is to say, there were a lot of OTHER PEOPLE THERE WHO SAW WHAT HAPPENED. If the blast was so strong that it blew Rassman overboard, how can anyone argue that the crew members of the other boats were too far away to see what happened? After all, it was another boat that actually got hit by the mine.
I understand that many of you do not have any experience with mine blasts, shock waves, ect.. I do. For the blast to have been strong enough to pick a men up and throw him off a swift boat, he would have to be quite close to the blast zone. It is far more likely that Mr. Rassman lost his balance and fell off the boat when John Kerry accellerated out of the area, to escape what he probably thought was an ambush.
Kerry's biggest problem (and Rassman's)is that there were at least two other boats on the scene at the time. At least four other crewmembers were picked out of the water, just like Rassman was(The difference being that those crewmen were on the boat that actually hit the mine.). The crew members from the other boats have stated that there was no enemy small arms fire from either shore after the mine blew up. Since the other boats stayed at that location long enough to pick the crew members out of the water, board the stricken swift boat and tow it back to base, it is wholley unreasonable to suggest that they do NOT know what was happening. They certainly would be aware of a "hellacious fire fight" supposedly taking place less than 50 yards away!!
Nope, Kerry's a damn liar and now he's been caught. And all the King's horses and all the King's men cannot put Kerry
back together again!
38 - Andy
Served 1st cav division 66/67. Kerry aided and comforted the enemy upon his return incountry along with Fonda. He voted against most of all if not all of the weapon systems we have today. all of this is public knowledge. He should be labeled a traitor. this is all I need to know
39 - Jon
YOU Vietnam vets ROCK! It's VERY nice to see the voice of reason combating this tripe the lefties are spewing!! Kerry's record and actions speak for themselves..."UNFIT FOR COMMAND"! 'Nuff said...Thanks for all your service, vets!
40 - Bob A. Booey
Vietnam was hot.
41 - Dawn
Napalm is VERY hot.
42 - Hal Pawluk
While I thought at the time (and still do) that Jane Fonda was a Commie bitch who shouldn't have been let back into the country or jailed (or worse) when she got back, I see the Kerry situation as quite different.
He fought the enemy.
In my view, he fought for his country but disagreed with its government.
Isn't that what America is about?
43 - Biggins
It's easy for Kerry to prove everyone here is wrong, show us your records! President Bush showed all his records, even his dental records. No, he didn't serve in Nam, but he is not running his whole campagn on it either. Show us the records JFK - "Jane Fonda Kerry".
44 - David
What's most hilarious is these sleazey attacks on a combat veteran's decorations come from people whose candidate/President (plus his Vice-Prez and most of his other generation pals) all politically SUPPORTED the ware in Vietnam and yet AVOIDED serving there. Where's the outrage about W admittedly missing EIGHT months of National Guard "service."
What's refreshing is that these jokers do not understand -- even though it is being spelled out for them by General Zinni and John McCain -- that this kind of gutter attack will backfire -- that people find it repulsive. I guarantee you all Kerry needs to win this election is for 5 or 10 percent of Republicans to be appalled by the unnecessary and arrogant war which has destabilized Iraq, AND/OR to be angry about the squandered opportunity of four years of budget surplus being continued to help us prepare for the fully predictable budget crunch of the baby-boomer retirements. I dont even hang out with Republicans, and I know at least ten (some military officers, some intelligence officers, some "national security" academics) who quietly hope for W's defeat. I'm beginning to wonder if it will even be close.
45 - er777
Let me point you to John McCain's response to this garbage. Mudslinging of the lowest order , let's remember Willie Horton - that's OK come November we will be rid of the moron we have in the White House who was not elected but appointed. AND GUESS WHAT - IT WILL NOT EVEN BE A CLOSE ELECTION, polls notwithstanding. The harm that Bush has done to thus country's principles image and economy is so gargatuan as to be tragic
46 - lighten up
sheesh and i thought i needed a life -- you old farts need to understand: (a) vietnam is ancient history, and (b) US policy in Vietnam was obviously very very mistaken.
47 - moltar
Whew. I would rather have a stalk of asparagus behind the President's desk than the idiot who slimed his way in there in 2000. LOTS of people carried cameras and movie cameras in Nam; I was at a 1966 slide show given by a Green Beret who had found time to take pictures. Duh - it was other people who took pictures of Kerry. What, you think he ran up to them and said, here's my camera, take a picture of me!
We know what Bush's record is like: it's non-existent. Poof! And NO ONE has stepped forth to claim that they actually served with Bush in that Air Guard unit. How many people would that be? 50? 100? 1000? No one. Ever.
Has Bush ever done anything to help this nation or his fellow man? 9/11? Excuse me? That guy who sat pretending to read a kiddie book for 7 minutes while the WTC burned - and then stayed 20 minutes more to sign autographs and chat? What sane person would do this? Do even rabid Freepers believe that Kerry would sit there like a deer in the headlights while the fucking WTC is being attacked?!
What idiot hiring manager would pick a Harvard MBA who had run every business he touched into the GROUND, to be CEO of America? Right-wing idiots and "Christians" that have nothing to do with Christ-like behavior. And if that weren't enough to tip the scales, we'll just (heh-heh) double team 'em, eh Jebbie-boy?
For God's sakes, people, he's put us half a TRILLION dollars in debt, declared war on half of the WORLD when we can't even handle Iraq, and tried to turn back every bit of social progress ever made by Democrats who had to fight tooth and nail to make it happen. We went straight off a cliff when this mumbling, coke-addled freak got Daddy's friends at the Big Courthouse to put him in charge. Don't let it happen again, because we are almost at the point where other countries won't lend us many.
48 - Sharon
I tell you what... I can't believe all the hatred directed towards a president who has seen us through the worst of times and I sure as heck DO NOT want a president who is nothing but an empty windbag who lies about everything and threw his purple hearts back into the face of AMERICA!!! I have NO respect for him and neither do any of the many Vietnam veterans I know. They despise him second only to Hanoi Jane Fonda!! And with good reason! I don't care if he went over there.. its what you DID over there.. there are MANY hero's that are the REAL thing. And by the way.. can you even imagine how utterly horrible it will be to have TERRRRAAAZZZZZZZAA Kerry as first lady? Laura Bush is a true Christian, ie: VERY Christ like woman and a genuine lady of the southern tradition. Notice will you please that these Kerry's are FILTHY RICH and I mean unbelievable. that they will CARE or have a single CLUE how the working man and woman have to live??????? COME ON!!! I will be PROUD PROUD to be an American with George W. Bush as my commander in chief.. If Kerry wins.. I will be sicker than I have been in a long long time.. THINK PEOPLE!! THINK!!!!!
49 - Max
SWIFT BOAT VETERANS FOR "UNTRUTHS ABOUT KERRY" -- this group of Vietnam
vets is bought and paid for by Bush contributor and Houston homebuilder
Bob Perry (2/3 of group's funds are from Perry). GOP activist and
corporate media consultant Merrie Spaeth is listed as the group's media
contact. She pushed the spurious anti-McCain ads in the 2000 primary
which smeared McCain's military service. Similar tactics were used
against Georgia Sen. Max Cleland (who lost 3 limbs in Vietnam). (Bush
supporters used another smear tactic in South Carolina during the 2000
primary by posing as pollsters and insinuating that the child adopted
by John and Cindy McCain from Mother Theresa's orphanage in Bangladesh
was McCain's illegitimate black daughter. The child, Bridget, is
dark-skinned.)
NONE of the men in the ad were Kerry's crewmates. ALL of the men
supporting Kerry actually were crewmates. Earlier this year, veterans
who served or knew Kerry in Vietnam complained that a Dallas-based
private investigator (former FBI agent Thomas Rupprath) interviewed
them, "twisting their words" in an effort to malign Kerry.
About the vets in the TV ad:
GEORGE ELLIOTT -- In the 1969 U.S. Navy Officer Fitness Report signed
by George Elliott, he wrote "In a combat environment requiring
independent, decisive action LTJG Kerry was unsurpassed
emerges as the acknowledged leader in his peer group."
In 1996, during Kerry's re-election campaign to the Senate, Elliott
praised Kerry.
LOUIS LETSON -- asked to verify his claims that he treated Kerry, has
not produced any such documents nor is he listed on any documents as
having treated Kerry.
VAN O'DELL -- says there was no enemy fire yet official Naval documents
about the four boats involved in the March 13, 1969 incident
specifically details the boats received "Heavy A/W (automatic weapons)
and S/A (small arms) from both banks."
Describing that March day when he was blown off Kerry's swift boat by a
mine explosion, James Rassmann, a registered Republican who had not
seen Kerry for over 30 years until a reunion in Iowa 2004, noted that
bullets whizzed by him from both banks during the rescue by Kerry.
JACK CHENOWITH -- a "mysterious vet" who suddenly appeared from
nowhere to smear Kerry's account of what happened. But it's not Kerry's
account it is Admiral Elmo Zumwalt's and the Navy's account.
ROY HOFFMAN --In the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel (5/7/04) "Hoffman
acknowledged he had no first-hand knowledge to discredit Kerry's claims
of valor
didn't know Kerry much personally." Fellow vets described Hoffman as
"bloodthirsty, hotheaded and egomaniacal" and former Sen. Bob Kerrey (a
vet who served under Hoffman) said Hoffman was "a classic body count
guy."
ADRIAN LONSDALE -- in 1996, Lonsdale praised Kerry and "the courage of
young officers that ran the boats." (Kerry for Senate Press Conference
10/27/96)
BOB HILDRETH, LARRY THURLOW, BOB ELDER, JOE PONDER, GRANT HIBBARD were
NOT crewmates on Kerry's boats, yet the deceptive ad throws in their
opinions about Kerry's anti-war position after he returned from
Vietnam, as if they were stating fact about his Vietnam service.
In April 2004 the Toledo Blade was awarded the Pulitzer Prize for a
series detailing the atrocities committed by American soldiers in
Vietnam.
8/3/04 On Fox News' Hannity & Colmes, retired General and former
Commander in Chief of Central Command Tommy Franks said he believed
Kerry's summary of what other soldiers told Kerry about atrocities in
Vietnam. Franks added: "I'm not sure that -- that activities like that
didn't take place. In fact I'm quite sure that they did."
When George Stepanopolous on ABC's THIS WEEK asked Gen. Tommy Franks
"If John Kerry is fit to be Commander in Chief?" Gen. Franks responded
without hesitation, "Absolutely."
Jim Wasser, an actual Kerry crewmate, said: "If John Kerry came to us
and said he had one more mission and we're going to hell, he'd have a
full crew." --Dallas Morning News 7/29/04
50 - steve
60 veterens contributed to this book, and I believe them. Kerry started all this crap by using his so called miltary record to get votes. Now we can all see kind of fake this guy really is. And his wife? What a discusting bitch she is
51 - Rodney Welch
Laugh of the day: "Notice will you please that these Kerry's are FILTHY RICH and I mean unbelievable. that they will CARE or have a single CLUE how the working man and woman have to live???????" You mean, unlike the Bushs?
52 - Hal Pawluk
I sure as heck DO NOT want a president who is nothing but an empty windbag who lies about everything
Me, too, Sharon, but Bush still may get re-elected in spite of what we both think.
I'm confused about the medals, though - Bush was "AWOL in Alabama" so where would he have gotten medals?
53 - boomcrashbaby
Max, (comment 49), thanks for the refutation of the swift vets. I hope you don't mind if I use this info elsewhere.
Hmm, which is worse? A Commander in Chief who's former military acquaintances (but not crewmates) are playing partisian politics in disagreeing with him, or a Commander in Chief who's own father thinks he's fucked things up? source
(reposting this article from a related thread)
54 - Sharon
Don't you find it in any way enlightening that NONE and I mean NOT ONE SINGLE MAN In Kerry's chain of command finds him fit for the office of President??? I would say that is the most damning information to come to light. If even some had differed it would have been just like most things.. oppinion based on personal feelings but when NONE of them found the young and now the old John Kerry a good soldier? Again I say THINK! We are in a time of danger and unrest and I would be scared out of my wits to be under the leadership of someone who is UNFIT FOR DUTY and by his own admission got a silver medal for WHAT??? shooting a vc in the back as he ran away.. ohhh wow.. what a HERO... NOT!
55 - jon thomas
One person writes a book or makes a movie that casts President Bush in a bad light, Moore, Clark, Snow, Woodward, etc. and the media jumps on it as a great truism. When it turns out there are lies and exaggerations, the media ignores these facts. But when 60 Vietnam veterans, who served on swift boats challenge Kerry’s record, (Unfit for Command) they are condemned , called dis-respectful, un-American and so on. Why is it that these men do not have the same right to express their views against Kerry as others have against President Bush? John Kerry made his Vietnam service part of his campaign. If Kerry wants to stand on his Vietnam service, then he should sign the release and let everyone see his record and put an end to this issue.
56 - Hal Pawluk
Sharon, read this part of Max's post again:
BOB HILDRETH, LARRY THURLOW, BOB ELDER, JOE PONDER, GRANT HIBBARD were
NOT crewmates on Kerry's boats, yet the deceptive ad throws in their
opinions about Kerry's anti-war position after he returned from
Vietnam, as if they were stating fact about his Vietnam service.
They don't like what Kerry did after he got back, but that has nothing to do with whether he was a "good soldier" or not. In fact, based on Navy records he appears to have been an excellent soldier.
Don't swallow the spin from the right. He may or may not make a good president, but lies like this do not tell us anything about that one way or the other.
57 - Mark Saleski
yes, they're being comdemned.
...even in that dastardly hive of dishonest, america-hating liberalism:
The Wall Street Journal
58 - Jim
I'm a VietNam vet and this arrogant spin stuff from the Bush crowd is getting stupid. 1. Fact: Kerry served in combat; Bush did not; 2) Fact: We were in Cambodia but the American public was told otherwise -- I know because I was there and took care of troops who needed treatment; 3. Opinion: "The Unfit for Command" and Swift Boat oppos are working an agenda that does not even get close to meeting the standards that we fought for; 4. Opinion: Kerry stood up for and continues to stand for holding government accountable instead of going along to get along. Remember!
59 - Sharon
But HAL if he was genuinly a hero over in Vietnam, can't you see those men are trying to tell you that what he did when he got HOME was even worse!!!??? I cannot believe that people can watch John Kerry's own grandstanding never mind anybody elses' oppinion... what he did was nothing short of traitorous... I wonder how many lives he COST as opposed to the one he saved when he went on his little trip overseas to join in with our enemies to denigrate his own country? It's too bad we let him come back home from that one. I wish there was a way to say to people like John Kerry... if you don't like it here and you don't like us, your fellow countrymen.. if you aren't proud to be an American... well ok... you are now.. what you seemed to have wanted to be by your actions.. a man without a country. I don't want to give this man our entire country to run... I want a man in office who tells us and the rest of the world.. WE ARE AMERICANS AND DAMNED PROUD OF IT! Do we make mistakes? well YEAH.. does our President make mistakes.. welll YEAH.. why? because we are all HUMAN BEINGS!! However we are the greatest nation on earth for many reasons.. and I think we deserve a president who believes in US! pun intended and I KNOW we deserve a president who never for a second doubted us as a nation. John Kerry is on record as a traitor. Please, can't yall see that????
60 - Hal Pawluk
"But SHARON" I have no objection to any number of people thinking that Kerry's actions when he got back were less than admirable.
I do object to the lie created by using that to communicate that his service for his country was less than honorable.
Those doing that are despicable liars.
Or do you think that's fine and they're the salt of the earth and true-blue Americans?
61 - GiJoe
Kerry is a fraud, a fake, and a liar. Vote for him, vote for the demise of the true United States.
62 - JR
I guess I don't care for the "true United States"; I'd like the original one back please.
63 - Joe
From a military culture standpoint, I think its worth clarifying that all the sailors mentioned, Kerry's crew and the Swift Boat Vets, served in the same unit. The crew as Kerry's subordinates, the SBVs as his peers and superiors. You can probably slice that fact about a zillion different ways.
64 - Name
comment 53:
really good source Capital Hill Blue - Now that's a news source I would base my voting information on.
65 - boomcrashbaby
to commenter 64:
I wouldn't base my voting information on a single article. I also wouldn't base it on Unfit for Command, since they both seem to stem from 'a really good source', to use your words:
From Wire Reports:
One of the authors of a new anti-John Kerry book frequently posted comments on a conservative Web site describing Muslims and Catholics as pedophiles and Pope John Paul II as senile.
The author of the book "Unfit for Command," Jerry Corsi apologized for remarks in an interview with The Associated Press Tuesday, saying they were meant as a joke and he never intended to offend anyone. He frequently posted comments on a conservative Web site (free republic) describing Muslims and Catholics as pedophiles and Pope John Paul II as senile.
In chat room entry last year on freerepublic.com, Corsi writes: "Islam is a peaceful religion - just as long as the women are beaten, the boys buggered and the infidels are killed."
In another entry, he says: "So this is what the last days of the Catholic Church are going to look like. Buggering boys undermines the moral base and the lawyers rip the gold off the Vatican altars. We may get one more Pope, when this senile one dies, but that's probably about it."
In this case, one news source is as good as another, huh?
66 - david
actually the level of discourse in here is sobering -- well, actually it's pretty fucking depressing. Some people seem to believe and accept ANYTHING if it confirms and supports their candidate preference, with no capacity whatsoever to consider whether its true or false, exaggerated or a flat-out lie. The room might do much better if it discussed actual issue differences: I mean, the reasons I oppose Bush have to do with (a) turning 4 years of surpluses and the best budgetary position in 50 years into record-high deficits, PARTLY through tax cuts half of which went to the top one percent who are already extremely wealthy (aside: between 1980 and 1998, the top one percent of Americans saw their family incomes ALMOST TRIPLE, while the median family barely kept even (by putting spouses to work and working 2nd jobs) and the bottom 25 percent saw actua; income declines. (Source: Ellen Frank, RAW DEAL, Beacon Press, 2004). And this was BEFORE the two Bush tax cuts. Why do extremely wealthy people need even more money anyway, when 20 percent of US children live in poverty and 15 percent (the working poor, not the bottom 15 percent, who have Medicaid and SCHIP) have NO health insurance -- in the richest country in the world.
(b) Invading Iraq when all our Arab and Muslim allies publicly urged us NOT to do it, Generals like Zinni said it was a terrible idea, area specialists said it was precisely what Bin Laden wanted us to do, and everyone understood it would distract us and divert resources from Afghanistan where the Taliban would re-group and re-emerge. This was a truly unnecessary war which may still have disastrous outcomes (civil war, fragmentation, Kurdish v. Shia violence) and it served no US interest. The neocons were pursuing the national security interests of Israel AS DEFINED BY SHARON AND LIKUD, and this is precisely why we are hated by more and more people in the Islamic world. These are real issues, and as a 20-year-old, I'm tired of my professors saying my generation will definitely see the use of a weapon of mass destruction in the US against the US. The Palestinians do have some valid claims and we need to use leverage with Israel to try to reinvigorate the moderate center in Israeli politics.
To be honest, I want to say WTF are you guys wasting your time talking about Vietnam for??????? No one under 35 cares, I assure you. And your generation was split not the middle, as this formum makes obvious. This kind of attack doesn't help Bush, it will further discredit him with anyone is actually undecided, and the venom with which people are spewing it is repulsive even kinda shocking. Why won't one of you Kerry-haters at least discuss why Bush's lame record during Vietnam isn't relevant and discrediting? I mean, whats with Bush, Cheney, Gingrich, Saxbe Chambliss, et al that these guys ALL favored the war in Vietnam, were of military age, and avoided serving there??? That doesn't slow down any of you guys who question somebody's three purple hearts and silver star??? Unfuckingbelievable.
67 - mike
Doesn't anyone care if this is true? Or why you can't hear about any of this on ABC/NBC/CBS. Sorry, I have no cable. I just found out today that Kerry wrote an anti-war book back in the 70's. How come you don't see anything about that on TV?
68 - Jeff
If everything in this Book is a LIE, or if only one little thing in this book is a LIE, sue them, show mr kerrys records.
I can't wait for that deposition!
But it won't ever happen, kerry doesn't have the manhood to hold up his end of the Alligator Mouth, he should just shut up and let Soros and Te RAH za pay (buy) him out of difficulty. He won't be shamed, it isn't in him he is a True SNOB, look up the definition of SNOB, it is an acronym, and it is true... he was, is and allways will be a SNOB.
69 - Sharon
Look... it goes to character... what you do when things are heavy is what your made of. Maybe your too young to remember Vietnam, and certainly you haven't learned to respect those older then you and wiser. John Kerry's character is such that he ASKED for those medals.. and was given them on the basis of false info. John Kerry's character is such that when he came home he betrayed his country and fellow soldiers. John Kerry's character and record in the time he has been in Washington show no character at all just wishy washy... just like him going to vietnam and then joining in with our enemies to whine and cry. Maybe SOME of this information is old... but John Kerry himself is running on no solid ideas but on the gold medals and on the blood of true war heroes. Even if some of this is "OLD news" to you, remember a man is as he does, and this man is clearly to me.. unfit for command and as a matter of fact I wouldn't care to have him as a friend. I have heard several times of his acting imperiously when met in person. Except for now of course when he wants to be the President. He is known to step into lines ahead of those already there and when they say what the heck!? he says do you KNOW who I AM????
Bill CLinton was the same in office, imperious and hateful. Those who have observed George Bush come away with nothing but praise, about his kindness to staff. He is what you see, an all around nice person. He is not a person who looks like a rich Bassett Hound with a wife whose nose is so high in the air it is a wonder she don't drown when it rains. Ok ok.. that last is mean of me but the other I do want to say clearly.. ALL of this information goes to show the character of this man and I for one.. see a fearful future if he is elected. He doesn't even know what HE stands for not to mention what AMerica stands for.
70 - Mark Saleski
He is not a person who looks like a rich Bassett Hound with a wife whose nose is so high in the air it is a wonder she don't drown when it rains.
yessirree, it's all about character.
...and it's comments like these that say a lot about your own character.
71 - Sharon
hey come on I said myself that wasn't nice of me. But my dear you failed to even absorb in the slightest the rest of what I said.
72 - david
sharon:
you refuse to make any comment at all about what it says about W's CHARACTER that he avoided service in Vietnam, a way he politically supported and still supports. This same CHARACTER "quality" you can see in Cheney (who also AVOIDED service in Vietnam), Gingrich (ditto), Trent Lott (ditto), Saxbe Chambliss (ditto, and this is the creep/US Senator who defeated Max Cleland by running commercials questioning his patriotism (a draft dodger questioning the patriotism of a triple-amputee Vietnam vet). How come almost all the "leaders" you guys follow and support are actual AVOIDERS of Vietnam service, and why can you say nothing about that odd coincidence or what it says about their character.
There is also one other point that you and most of those posting here who agree with you absolutely miss: to criticize the American intervention in Vietnam IS IN NO WAY TRAITOROUS, OR EVEN ANTI-PATRIOTIC. The war was a huge mistake, based on incredible ignorance of Southeast Asian historic realities.
You don't like his wife, and John Kerry probably is a snob and a cold fish socially -- but his intelligence is not in question, nor, in my judgment is his courage. He asked for the medals? Well, big f'king deal -- he ASKED to serve in Vietnam... he ASKED to serve in combat. When you get a candidate who did the same, let us know. Questioning the courage of this guy is the biggest tactical blunder you guys could possibly make. It might have worked for W's crowd to have phone banks in the 2000 SC primary make calls to voters and mis-describe the fact that the McCains have adopted a Bengali daughter by saying "McCain has a black daughter" but it ain't gonna work to say the USN passes out THREE bogus purple hearts, bogus Silver Stars, etc etc.
Have at it -- you guys have no idea at all how you come across to people under 35 or to people over 35 who see any shread of complexity or ambiguity in the Vietnam debacle.
I am very much against Bush's re-election, and have had no especially strong feelings for Kerry, but I havta say to see the venom and sheer rabid bullshit he's having to endure makes me respect him more for having to put up with this kind of crap. Of course the book and the ad campaign are financed by the same extremely wealthy people who benefitted from Bush's tax cuts for the highest-income one percent. Oh, you forgot to say anything about that, either.
This board makes me despair for democracy, but at least we're going to have an election that will tell us if Lincoln was right or wrong.
73 - mike
I got a tax cut. I made about $80k last year. So I'm in the top 8.5% of all tax payers....the richest of the rich...Bush's buddies. Why should I feel bad about it? I went to college and got two engineering degrees. Why am I evil? Why should I pay more? Isn't the 28% bracket high enough for me? Why am I Kerry's target? What did I do?
74 - Gaucho
Gentlemen,
I was a Scout pilot in Vietnam, for the First Cavalry Division. I am here to point out that reconnaissance missions are not for the faint of heart. They are not safe, by any means!
Pushing a small aircraft up a valley, or pushing a fiberglass hull up some river are risky procedures.
That said, I personally would not run for office based on my abilities to run patrols for a year, and certainly not if I opted out after a couple of months.
As for films -- when one hits the s***, there is too much going on to be taking pictures, never mind movies with an 8mm camera.
Even in its best light, Senator Kerry's posture over his service is inadequate for any decision on whether he could be a good President or not.
His record as Lt. governor of Massachusetts; his record in the Senate would be a better criteria.
During the convention, he and his handlers chose to avoid those criteria.
Whatever your thoughts are on the matter, I do urge one and all to go VOTE.
75 - Hal Pawluk
Pay attention, Mike. Your $80K is less than, not more than, the $200,000 minimum Kerry is talking about.