Science has shown that the Bible is both valid and a truthful account of what the Israelites believed. However ...
Over the centuries, Biblical scientists have gone to great lengths to prove the validity of the Bible. To me, that means proving I have a genuine copy of the original. Ever since the discovery of the Qumran scrolls, researchers using the latest scientific techniques have pored over these documents in an attempt to date them, then meticulously align their findings with earlier writings of both the Old and the New Testament. Today, I would think there is more proof for the validity of the Bible than for any other ancient writing including that of Chaucer and Shakespeare, Aristotle and Cicero.…
Article comments
276 - Regis
You continue being blind to Old Testament typology of scapegoat, the suffering servant, and the idea of offering as an atonement. You may disagree with these ideas, but you've got no leg to stand on when you dismiss those beliefs offhand just because they don't make sense to you. That's precisely what the people of Israel believed, and that's a fact.
What is factual to me, Irene, is that the very words you believe in (OT-NT), tell stories of unfounded hatred, not love. The OT words are words of avarice. The NT words are words of unquestionable horror.
You belive in them because the Bible tells you to believe in them and this is an act of pure FAITH.
I do not have that faith.
277 - roger nowosielski
It wasn't Irene's post, Regis, it was mine. And faith, BTW, has got nothing to do with the object of your belief; it's all about human experience.
How one does or does not conceive the object of their belief is entirely up to them. There is a great deal of latitude. In fact, even "pagans" can rightly claim to be no more deficient in their faith than the most devout Jews or Christians. And it wouldn't matter one bit if they practice voodoo or shamanism.
Now, put that in your pipe and smoke it.
278 - Regis
Sorry Irene, I thought it was your post.
You are absolutely right, Roger, the object of my belief comes from my human experience. This experience tells me that the ancient books are just that: ancient books--misguided human experiences which are both illogical and unnaturally wrong.
Human experience tells me that conquering, killing, and hatred, are not acceptable, were never acceptable, will never be acceptable.
Rationalizing the opposite because of fear of damnation, or "going against the goad," or because "that's what I've been told and that's what I must believe" is sheer lack of courage to accept the unknown.
This fear existed thousands of years ago. It existed down through the ages. It is the same fear that drives religions today, it is the same fear that keeps people enslaved in their steeped traditions.
279 - Irene Wagner
Thankyou Regis, for noticing that. I had no intention of coming back to argue with you after I'd given you shared First Place for your limmericks.
But, since I'm here...You think I choose this way because it's COMFORTABLE?
One of the people closest to me who died, likely did so cursing God with his last breath. Or maybe not. I wasn't there. It was a suicide.
Others were infants. I think they "made it in" personally, just like I think A LOT of people who haven't SEEN a Bible I can quote chapter and verse and believe cover-to-cover and love--I think God cares about them, and has ways of reaching them in ways that you don't know about.
And I know God loved the innocents (many of whom were lived in a condition where their parents might offer them a bloody sacrifice to Molech, you know, if the crops looked like they might need a little divine help that year--or grownups who were horrified by the practice but had to live among people who did it) he took those innocents home WAY before their time. Just like he took my own children away from me way before their time. I don't hold it against Him, anymore than I take the death of innocents in the Old Testament against him.
He knew about the way some things were going to turn out ahead of time.
And there are another two whom I have and do love, who, at present, appear to have no intention of dying with anything but curses for God on their lips, if there is any mention of him at all.
Comfort? Being associated, because I am an American who loves the name JESUS-- being associated with a bunch of well-intentioned, patriotic, salt of the earth helpful people--whom I also love for that reason, even though they are concerned I show signs of going FAR astray-- who under the direction of wolves in sheep's clothing, those who have money to make from fomenting war and hate God, have been led into war, "for Israel's sake, their Crosses wrapped in flags carried aloft! You call those associations COMFORTABLE?
Those whose primary identifying features are that they 1) hate homosexuals 2) love babies -- unless they're Iraqi babies, or Sudanese babies, or...well, anything but American babies....Some Americans who love Jesus are NOT like this. Unfortunately, none of them seem to be as noisy as I am. Comfortable? Yeah, big heaping loads of comfort THERE!
My faith makes me COMFORTABLE? My big toe it makes me comfortable!
Only when I am with the Bible, knowing that I am talking to God and he is talking to me (through little almost daily evidences that, despite their incredibly frequent nature, you'd pass off as coincidences--even the odd medical miracle--those are admittedly rare) This is the way that I know that he is with me, and with others who aren't afraid that people will think they're crazy if they admit to such things...and that I do that my life is not irrelevant, not to HIM anyway, that it is worth it to try to make peace...
...in my own without MAKING FUN OF PEOPLE (except if they DANG well know I'm kidding around with them), or INTIMIDATING THEM into silence, or attacking their character or intelligence, or without respecting their views (except once when someone called Ron Paul a racist, but I've only had a comment deleted once because of the fact the guy a liar.
And when people like Richard Dawkins try to make a case for encouraging people to take my babies away from me because I am poisoning them with evil "memes" I try to make a cogent case in return, one with which atheists like Dave Nalle who deserves a lot more respect than he gets around here, agree with me.
The End. Please don't reply. I can't think of anything else to say. I have spilled my guts to the world.
280 - roger nowosielski
Many ways to witness, Irene, without bearing the cross.
281 - John Wilson
The major tragic figure in the bible is god himself.
282 - Regis
John, I think you are right. The God painted by the Bible is indeed immorally tragic and has remained so down through the ages. The Bible God cannot possibly be my God.
283 - Dan
Beautiful sentiments Irene. I'm glad I caught that (#279). Coincidence perhaps?
Did you happen to see Ben Steins documentary "Expelled"? Some argue that it was an unfair set up, but I think Richard Dawkins rendered himself irrelevant by his own shifting logic.
An explaination that seems reasonable to me for Gods harsh treatment of humanity in the Old Testament is that the primitive mental and spiritual evolution of the time didn't allow for gentle moral lessons.
Punishing David by calling back his young child doesn't seem so harsh when you consider that life, death, pain, grief, and even time are all divine constructs that are insignificant in the larger scheme.
284 - roger nowosielski
Can't be the same Dan I'm thinking of. Tell me I'm wrong.
285 - Dan
See another facet roger?
286 - roger nowosielski
Sure do.
287 - Irene Wagner
Dan, I returned to ask the COMMENT EDITORS TO DELETE #279, but if it keeps just ONE person from becoming an insufferable God Loves America Best-er, then my keyboard and I will have fought the good fight.
[So...instead, I will just respectfully request that the COMMENT EDITORS discretely remove lines 4,5,16,17...cursing with their dying breaths, etc. etc.]
Didn't intend to sound self pitying there, was just pointing out that my primary reason for believing is NOT that it gives me hope that I'll see Loved Ones Who Have Gone Before. Regis had written an article about how comforting it would be if he could believe he'd be with his wife for eternity. Some people believe, because it gives them hope that they'll see Those Who Have Gone On Before again. That's not my primary reason. It'll be swell to spend eternity in the company of my believing husband--snoring problems all solved!--but there are ALSO people I love now who don't WANT to spend eternity with God, and so...they probably won't.
I have not seen Expelled, although a free-thinker (not a Christian) recommended it to me because...eh...she's not much of a fan of the way decisions are made in the upper echelons of academia.
288 - Regis
An explaination that seems reasonable to me for Gods harsh treatment of humanity in the Old Testament is that the primitive mental and spiritual evolution of the time didn't allow for gentle moral lessons.
God had just given the ten commandments. Why would He contradict Himsels so easily:
"Thou shall not kill.
Thou shall not commit adultery
Thou shall not covet thy neighbor's wife
Thous shall not steal
Thou shall not covet thy neighbor's goods.
The Israelites, let alone King David surely did not understand these God given commands.
289 - Regis
The He typed above should be S/he!
290 - Irene Wagner
1. #288 But I thought you said you had been a..?
2. How much money do you get everytime someone clicks on this, Regis?
291 - Irene Wagner
Just wondering, because it sort of seems like I should be getting a cut, you know? Just sayin'.
292 - Irene Wagner
While I'm waiting for #289 be edited or deleted, I'll watch "Expelled."
293 - Irene Wagner
No, I meant #279. Nothing wrong with #289, except for the implicit statement: "King David knows commands, and King David disobeys commands" is a contradiction.
294 - Irene Wagner
Finished the movie. Yeah, Richard Dawkins WAS cornered into making himself sound like a fool at the end of "Expelled." It was a fitting conclusion, though, to a documentary featuring interviews with so many formerly fully-functional scientists who were put in the "dunce" chair and shelved after someone picked up a whiff of I.D. in their publications.
I can understand how people who don't even believe in ID would have problems with that kind of heavy-handedness.
Comment editor, would you mind taking a look at #287 where I made a request? Thanks so much.
295 - Regis
Irene, I get nothing at all for the clicks. I certainly have learned a lot from other people's comments including your insights.
I just finished reading a book written by Temple Grandin, a PhD who has spent her life dealing with her own autism. The book is titled Thinking in Pictures.
The insights of this woman into death are interesting and comforting to me:
"I believe that a person goes on to somewhere else after they die. I do not know where. How a person conducts themselves on Earth during their life will have an effect on the next life. I became convinced that some sort of an afterlife exists after I discovered God ..." (Page 230)
If you are interested, I will be writing a review for this book for Blogcritics that will appear with my other reviews.
296 - Irene Wagner
Regis, I too, have read about Temple Grandin, and this book sounds interesting. I was kidding about the pay-per-clicks. :) Well, I guess I'm not going to get 'em to change my comment. I suppose if it doesn't bother them, it shouldn't bother me. See you around.
297 - Dan(Miller)
Irene, I'm a big fan of Temple Grandin. You might be interested in another of her books, Animals in Translation, in which she used her autism to understand the ways in which non-human animals react to stimuli. She is a high level autistic person, and received her doctorate in animal science at the University of Illinois. She is now a professor of animal science at Colorado State University. She has devoted many years to making slaughter houses far more humane, and received a PETA award in the “visionary” category:
Her improvements to animal-handling systems found in slaughterhouses have decreased the amount of fear and pain that animals experience in their final hours, and she is widely considered the world’s leading expert on the welfare of cattle and pigs.
I think I learned a lot about our animals (four dogs, six horses and one cat) by reading and re-reading her book. Did you know that prairie dogs have a language with nouns, verbs, adjectives and adverbs? The different colonies have different dialects. If you are interested, do read the book.
Dan(Miller)
298 - Irene Wagner
Dan(Miller) I actually thought of you when Regis mentioned Temple Grandin. No, I did not know you could parse a prairie dog sentence! But I'm really not surprised. The world is a wonderful place. :)
299 - Dan(Miller)
Irene,
The world is a wonderful place.
As Clav would say, "quoted for truth."
Dan(Miller)
300 - dimitar zdravkov
RELIGION& SCIENCE CONNECT!BIBLE CODE UNLOCKED!-According to the Bible the world has been created in six days,but according to the Science this process has taken billions of years.If we exclude the difference in time and we pay attention to the SEQUENCE,we will see that there is no contradiction between both,but only the question-why in the Bible things happened so fast?There is an answer and it`s in the Bible itself.Moses described the Creation from his own sight as an eyewitness.Where and when he saw It,how could he have seen something happen before his existence?Answer:For forty days he has been at the mount Sinai where he got information about the past,present and future.The Creation had been REcreated to him in six days there,he had seen how the already existing world had been made.The long process of evolution had been shown to him in the first six days and the SEVENTH day had been dedicated to human`s appearing.After that he had seen the difference between Adam`s origin and Eve`s one.Adam comes from the dirt in the process of evolution,but Eve comes from DNA material out his body,which marks another jump for the evolution or in other words-the"missing link" which Science is looking for.The Creation continue and The Next Jump Is Coming...2012 ?!
301 - Regis
To Dimitar, your comments are interesting. Obviously, you are a believer in the literal interpretation of the Bible.
However, exactly what Moses learned on Mount Sinai about God's creation of the world could be exactly as you say.
My concern with the Bible is this, the same God who allegedly told Moses and others what to write, also told the Israelites to commit certain acts of barbarism when conquering Canaan.
I have no doubt that what is recorded in the Bible is what people truly believed.
But why the Israelites, under Moses guidance would follow a God who told them to conquer, steal, rape, and murder the Philistine tribes, especially after receiving the 10 commandments from that same God, seems incredible.
It is this same thinking today among the Israelites that keeps the conflict in the Middle East alive: Yahweh gave this land to the Israelites--thus, they feel they have a right to it, regardless of how they originally captured it.
302 - Garry B
God's ways are not our ways ... Your failure to trust the Creator to know what is right and wrong is proof of our lack of understanding..The Potter creates the clay bowl and yet he is not satisfied and breaks the bowl. Does the bowl have the right to question the Potter ? ... The old saying "Everyone wants to go to heaven but no one wants to die" Surely you understand that to reach God's heaven we have to die... or be here when Christ comes for us... That small baby was taken to be in God's presence and the only ones who suffered was the sinners... The baby was in the very presence of God Almighty
303 - Christopher Rose
I really wanted to respond to Garry B but really don't know where to start!
304 - Regis
To Gary, "If God's ways are not our ways ..." I fear that the reason you believe what you do is because the Bible tells you so.
The Bible was written by priests who wanted the Israelites to conquer peoples they encountered and destroy them to such a degree, they would never be able to fight back.
These Israelites needed a land of their own. Their priests convinced them wrongly that God wanted them to destroy, kill, rape, and plunder as a goad to horrendous activities. I'm including here both David and Solomon.
You stated: "Does the bowl have the right to question the Potter?" Indeed it does if the bowl is human and the potters are also humans, not Gods.
The Bible is only truthful in this sense. It is the believed word of the Israelites accurately copied down from one generation to the next because they believed in their priests who were using them to find a homeland, rather than be assimilated into other cultures.