From what I was ever able to make of it, the Josephus reference looks like an obvious fraud, inserted by some Christian long after the fact.
Josephus wrote a long and exhaustive history of the Jews, yet Jesus gets just this one paragraph. In one quick paragraph in the middle of a thousand pages we come up with something to the effect of, 'oh and there was this guy Jesus who was the son of God come to save humanity, was crucified and rose from the dead.' Then it was on to the next thing.
If this were REALLY part of Josephus' book, he'd have had more than one paragraph. If he thought Jesus was the savior, he'd have come up with more than one paragraph. It doesn't fit in or add up with the rest of the book. Thus, the conclusion that this was a forgery inserted into the document perhaps centuries later.
So far as I know, this spurious Josephus reference is the only near contemporary reference to Jesus outside of the Bible itself.
Thus, I continue to doubt not just the divinity of Jesus, but the actual historical existence of even a mortal man corresponding to the mythology.
Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - mike
Jesus was way cool
Everybody liked Jesus
Everybody wanted to hang out with him
Anything he wanted to do, he did
He turned water into wine
And if he wanted to
He could have turned wheat into marijuana
Or sugar into cocaine
Or vitamin pills into amphetamines
He walked on the water
And swam on the land
He would tell these stories
And people would listen
He was really cool
If you were blind or lame
You just went to Jesus
And he would put his hands on you
And you would be healed
That's so cool
He could've played guitar better than Hendrix
He could've told the future
He could've baked the most delicious cake in the world
He could've scored more goals than Wayne Gretzky
He could've danced better than Barishnikov
Jesus could have been funnier than any comedian you can think of
Jesus was way cool
He told people to eat his body and drink his blood
That's so cool
Jesus was so cool
But then some people got jealous of how cool he was
So they killed him
But then he rose from the dead
He rose from the dead, danced around
Then went up to heaven
I mean, that's so cool
Jesus was way cool
No wonder there are so many Christians
King Missle
2 - BB
Yawn;
Taking stretch break;
Waking up from dozing;
Uh, um ... Oh sorry, wrong channel.
CLICK !
3 - duane
"He could've played guitar better than Hendrix." I think Jesus was somewhere in the top 20 on the Blogcritics' poll. That's pretty good, considering that there were no Strats back then.
4 - Michael Croft
Thanks for bringing this up to a post so that it doesn't get lost in the other discussion.
Here's another source of the Testimonium Flavianum, including a translation from Arabic of the same modified passage and and another mention.
All via the excellent Internet Ancient History Sourcebook, an excellent repository for primary source material on the debatable topics of the day, circa 93CE
5 - mike
What about the Arabic translation of the King Missle song? Does anyone have a link to that?
6 - Red
I think the greatest evidence that I can think of for Jesus is the impact he has on people and the longevity of his religion. Of course, the same thing could be said for Mohammed, but I think that's true: the same thing could be said for Mohammed.
7 - Shark
re. "I think the greatest evidence...for Jesus is the impact he has on people and the longevity of his religion."
Then he'd better move over, because Elvis is gaining on him. Graceland wasn't called that for no reason.
BTW: re. historical accuracy in the Bible:
we're not even sure HOW "The King" died or IF he died. And that was only 27 years ago.
Good luck accurately tracking an event over 2000 years.
8 - Michael Croft
Shark:"we're not even sure HOW "The King" died"
Dude! He was killed by a mummy.
9 - mike
I heard Elvis hated fags, too.
10 - BB
Shark, even the King bowed to Jesus.
11 - Red
Excuse me, but Jesus did not at all "hate fags," Mike. You can claim what you will, but Jesus loved everyone - even those who nailed him to the cross.
As far as Elvis, wait about 1900 years. Then we'll see who had a longer-lasting impact.
As far as the historical accuracy of Jesus's existence, read "The Case for Christ." It is the best argument for Christ's existence I can think of. Some skeptics and critics of Christianity became Christians because of this book. That's pretty amazing.
I could argue the case for Christ here, but it's easier for me if you read that book, because I'd write pages. Another good book is C.S. Lewis's "Mere Christianity." Lewis was a devout atheist and intellectual who became a Christian through reason. Maybe there's some substance to this Christianity thing.
Jesus existed, lived a perfect life, was fully God, was fully man, died on the cross, and rose again to free all people from sin if they will believe in him. I'll admit it sounds crazy, but I believe it's true.
12 - bb
Not to propagate the argument, but here is an interesting link for your reading pleasure.
13 - Al Barger
BB- Please DO propagate the argument, though I would prefer "discussion" to argument. So far though, I think we've done especially well here and on my "Messenger" column at being both substantive and civil, with a little leavening humor.
14 - BB
Al, you may have done well but I'm afraid not quite good enough to refute the Lord. Carry on however if it makes your day. I'll still love ya anyway (uh, in a platonic, spiritual sense of course ;-) Please do check out this link for the Case for Christ. Should make for interesting (if not illuminating) reading.
15 - Al Barger
BB- I'm far too humble to expect to settle the answers to the mysteries of human existence in a comments thread at Blogcritics. I think I present some decent thinking and writing here, but I'm WAY short of thinking I'll refute the Lord.
I'm happy just to have a substantive discussion, and keep it friendly. We seem to have more of a tone in at least these couple of threads of seeking truth rather than mere rhetorical victories.
Nor would I wish to refute the Lord. If there is in fact a Lord God above who wants something from me, I'm all ears. Just talk to me some way I can understand.
So far though, I ain't hearing anything. Well, maybe a few things...
16 - BB
I agree Al. Some people seem to find it difficult discussing religion or politics without letting their lower nature get the better of them. Sad but true.
But lately I'm beginning to see some sincere, heartfelt discussions without sinking into the usual caterwauling we've seen around here. Very encouraging.
Maybe everybody is exhausted after all the frantic screaming about the Passion and hopefully we can now settle into some sincere, friendly and productive discussions. Pray with me brother.
BTW, why are you up so late? Do you know where your children are?
17 - Josh
I am Hindu. Dogg.
18 - Red
What's up Josh. I do not think you are Hindu.
19 - shaun
Al i am guessing you are agnostic
20 - Al Barger
I'm not sure there's a right word for me, but I would usually say "atheistic" rather than "agnostic." I do not believe in any god or gods. On the other hand, I don't pretend to know The Answers, so I might be surprised.
To me, "agnostic" sounds like someone who is wishy washy and doesn't know what they believe and don't. I'd prefer to say I'm an atheist who would entertain the possibility that I might conceivably be wrong.
If there IS a god, he/she/it/they haven't spoken to me personally. I'd be all ears, though.
21 - shaun
you kind of described yourself as agnostic. To me, someone who is agnostic has not been convinced in a higher power. Someone who is agnostic is not convinced by anything out there that their is a god, but are still open to the idea. I am agnostic, and i do not believe in god, but i am not saying it is impossible, just unlikely. I am like you if a heard a big booming voice from the heavens then i would propbably be convinced, but not much less
22 - BB
Al, this is my third attempt at asking this question (computer keeps crashing :-(
Are you waiting for the proverbial handwriting on the wall or are you open to the possibility that God may communicate in other ways?
23 - Al Barger
Probably by your phrasing, I'd say more toward the handwriting. That's bad however, because the handwriting on the wall meant Belshazzar was already screwed. The blinding light on the road to Damascus would be a better comparison.
In any case, I mean God would need to talk to me in some way I could understand, and not mistake. I'm just not going to talk myself into some nonsense like, 'Oh, a bluebird lighted on my windowsill. It must be a message from God.' He'd have to come to me a little stronger than that.
Now, if the bluebird opened his beak and started talking like Charlton Heston, that might get my attention.
24 - bhw
Now, if the bluebird opened his beak and started talking like Charlton Heston, that might get my attention.
And a 30-day stay at Belleview.
Al -- and I hesitate to say this because I'm afraid the universe might implode -- I agree with you on this one. Anyone who can supposedly create not only the earth and all its creatures, but also the entire effing universe, ought to be able to *speak* to us lowly humans. He used to speak to Moses, why not me?
Finding "signs" from God in everyday occurances or mere coincidences of life is just wishful thinking, at best, grasping for straws at worst.
And if the world we have today represents God's perfect plan, then what the fuck would this place be like if he'd forgotten to write the outline?
25 - Al Barger
On the other hand, a God might not particularly WANT for us to be conscious of Her. Why would He NEED our worship? He might just give us an erector set, and turn us loose to see what we make of it.
In any case, if there is a god, and they want to get in touch with me, I'm all ears. She hasn't contacted me.