Reading Kurt Vonnegut's latest work makes one thing clear. Vonnegut believes the title is self-descriptive.
Reading Kurt Vonnegut's latest work, A Man Without A Country, makes one thing clear. Vonnegut believes the title is self-descriptive.…
"A sinister cabal of superior writers."
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - Scott Butki
Vonnegut was on the Daily Show the other day. I still really like him and posted at blog critics my review of his last book.
27 - Herbert Hoover
Dwayne,
I take it that you have accomplished this easy task of pulling yourself up out of the gutter.
I mean, to be so authoritative without sounding like a complete asshole, you must have worked real hard, gotten those scholarships available to less than 20% of college-bound students, and made it big - a regular American success story (in your mind)!
Well then, sir, you should write a book. It would be talked about and used as a guide for others for a long time.
Man, I'm glad you aren't just spewing crap you've heard from others who also have no idea what they're talking about because they cannot truly fathom how difficult it is to pull yourself out of poverty in this country.
Thanks Dwayne
28 - Herbert Hoover
By the way, I am a young Hispanic male, and I have plenty of drive and I work EXTREMELY hard. I can tell you although I would never ask for any handouts, I CANNOT STAND "men" such as yourself talking about my situation with no reference.
[edited]
Thanks again, Dwayne
29 - Scott Butki
Ok, can we talk about Vonnegut instead of having ugly personal attacks? And no, I didn't call you ugly.
Dave wrote:
That Bill Maher show with Vonnegut was interesting because it also had George Carlin on it, and they are both examples of the same phenomenon. Both are classic 60s leftists who were full of ideals and principles and were unable to accept how abyssmally those principles were betrayed by the Johnson administration in particular, and turned bitter and disillusioned and never recovered. Some from that period rethought their ideology and moved in new and positive directions, but others like Carlin and Vonegut became petrified in a horribly embittered version of a 1969 mindset and haven't been able to escape from it. It's a sad commentary on what an excessive devotion to ideology over pragmatism will get you in the end.
Can you elaborate on this? What mindset did they have? And what makes you so sure they were crushed by LBJ?
I would have thought that after having his own nation bombing him in Dresden that Vonnegut's pessimism of humanity would have been pretty set. The fact that that pessimism still exists doesn't seem like much of a shift to me.
30 - Mushuweasel
He's pissed, disheartened, distraught that we could continue to stumble for all these years and not even consider the metamorphosis we should be capable of. But I think if Vonnegut truly had no hope for humanity, he wouldn't bother to say it. His yawp is released. Ignore it, discount it, villify it at your own loss.
31 - Bob A. Booey
Vonnegut and George Carlin with the ever more smug and unfunny Bill Maher?
Shoot me now.
That is all.
32 - Dwayne Hoover
I am a young Hispanic male, and I have plenty of drive and I work EXTREMELY hard.,/i>
I'm sure you do! Hubcaps are a lot tougher to steal now than they used to be, what with those locking systems on the better models. I feel for you, really I do!
I CANNOT STAND "men" such as yourself talking about my situation with no reference.
Please explain for the audience how I was talking explicitly about YOUR situation? What's wrong? Don't like to hear about bootstrap rugged individualism? That's what this country was founded upon, Pepe.
And by the way, you are, indeed, an asshole
Please let the record show that I am simply defending myself from a personal attack, which is what any self-respecting American would naturally do in this instance.
33 - WTF
I've seen a number of interviews with Kurt Vonnegut, he's a been there, done that, got the tee-shirt, wore it out, now use it to wax my car kind of guy.
To the reader who wrote that Vonnegut served during WWII reluctantly, his interviews state otherwise. He saw the horror of war, he smelled the death, he had the guts of his closest friends splattered on his person... but he is very clear about the purpose he served and the his and the countries intensions at that time in history. He make no bones about it.
An amazing writer, an amazing human being. He writing is HIS writing, he probably writes more for himself, than for his audience, but the audience is captured and drawn to the writer, and the writer's gift.
34 - The Duke
Dave in number 12, wow, nicely said.
I have studied a number of writers from that period, Col Hal Moore for one. While not being a leftist from the that period, Moore nonetheless made reference to the aspirations of JFK, and that Kennedy probably never would have realized that his call to the youth of America, would result in many filling the graves surrounding his entombment in Arlington National Cemetary, joining him there after the call to "not ask what your country can do for you, but ask what you can do for your country." That statement in the Hal Moore book, brought tears to my eyes when I realized the significance of those poor boys, killed in battles that Kennedy and Johnson called them to fight. Amazing. The opposite side, as you pointed out was the disillusionment of the those on the homefront who fought to end the conflict, the "1000 year war" as some called it.
Thanks for the insight.
35 - Dwayne Hoover
WTF:
let me apprise you on a real fact about men who fight wars.
Many more of them had seen their buddies blown to bits and still did not return home to piss on their country like sniveling ingrates. Slaughterhouse Five was the work of a sniveling ingrate who deserves no respect and dishonors all that made the sacrifice during WW2. I feel the same way about those who did the exact same thing after Vietnam, especially one John Kerry.
Whatever happened to the type of men who did their job, went home to their families, and lead their lives quietly without drawing attention to themselves or their service?
36 - Temple Stark
Like General Dwight D. Eisenhower? General Colin Powell?
The man - Vonnegut - wrote a book, Slaughterhouse 5. One that's still remembered, along with many more for its imagery and its artistry.
Seeing buddies blown to bits does different things to different people, eh? Some go postal. Some commit suicide. Some go home and lead quiet lives and beat their wives. Some go home, lead quiet lives and become millionaires. some go home, lead quiet lives and become family men, batchelors, musicians, homeless. ...
And some write books like S5 that tends to support the idea that - still rembered as it is - the pen can be mightier than the sword.
Me? I wasn't super impressed with Slaughterhouse 5. A garbled narrative and hard to read.
Did you like Forrest Gump by Mr. Groom? The soldier saves men, gets medals, gets famous and has every success. The hippy girl does drugs, gets AIDS and dies.
Like that message better?
37 - Dwayne Hoover
stark: if you were able to follow my context, I was referring to men who didn't return home from war to become America hating ingrates. Eisenhower and Powell proudly served their countries on the battlefront and in federal office. They didn't join the anti-war movements to spit on returning soldiers and call them "baby killers."
Seeing buddies blown to bits does different things to different people, eh?
Having actually lived in the post-WW2 era, I can say that my observations about returning soldiers in the years that followed comprised the norm, not the exception, ditto for the post-Korean and post-Vietnam eras.
Did you like Forrest Gump by Mr. Groom?
Thought the film was an overhyped and maudlin piece of crap, so reading the book was not of interest to me.
still rembered as it is - the pen can be mightier than the sword.
Sorry, I don't get all dewy eyed over writers and their might pens. I'd far more value the heroics of a warrior and his M1 carbine or M16.
38 - Temple Stark
Ah, then you have to ask why they fight and why they are heroic?
Survival and ...
What kind of life and standard of living are they trying to protect? It's different for different soldiers, right?
Why is public office any better than being an artist? Certainly you sound like the type of person who would agree that many in public office are not at all honorable.
I have a feeling your next answer may be hateful enough where it's not worth continuing the conversaton. But maybe you'll surprise me.
Cheers. Temple
39 - Dwayne Hoover
Ah, then you have to ask why they fight and why they are heroic?
because it's the sworn duty of Americans to fight when the country calls for them to do so. Anyone should be proud to serve when called. That is not difficult to understand, but perhaps so for a Leftist. Writers have no such sworn duty to anything of equal importance.
Why is public office any better than being an artist?
A majority of the artists in America are parasites and contribute nothing to how this country pursues its strategic military and commercial interests. Their status in society is WAY overvalued. If they vanished tomorrow I wouldn't miss them.
Certainly you sound like the type of person who would agree that many in public office are not at all honorable.
You vote out the dishonorable and vote in the honorable. It's that simple.
I have a feeling your next answer may be hateful enough
Stop "feeling" so much and believing that everything that's opposite of the Leftist dogma is "hateful."
Why are you Leftists so afraid of hate? You hate George Bush, why don't freely permit the Right to have their targets of hate? I thoght Leftists were so enamored with fairness and equality? Or is that just lip service to impress their Leftist friends?
40 - Steven Hart
Not only did Vonnegut fight in World War II, he also worked in the relief effort for Biafra when it was trying to secede from Nigeria, and being slowly starved to death by the Nigerian blockade. It's a largely forgotten period of history now, but if you were aware of it in the 1960s then you'll nevr forget those nurseris full of swollen, dying babies. In terms of putting himself on the line, Vonnegut has more than paid his dues.
That said, I have to add that I find most of his novels unreadable -- cynicism couched in cuteness and sing-song prose gets old mighty fast. I like "Cat's Cradle" and "Mother Night," but his much touted masterpiece "Slaughterhouse-Five" was a big disappointment. Go for the film version directed by George Roy Hill -- it heightens what was good about the novel and drains away the coyness. A very powerful, overlooked film.
Funny, but Vonnegut's stuff plays better when it's adapted by other people. In the early 1970s there was a PBS film called "Between Time and Timbuktu" that strung several Vonnegut stories along a goofy storyline. It was terrific, and I wish PBS would re-air it sometime instead of infomercials or yet another go-round with the Three Tenors.
41 - Dwayne Hoover
he also worked in the relief effort for Biafra when it was trying to secede from Nigeria,
I see, Mr. Hart, but most likely, KV did not leave his cushy upper West Side apartment shared with second wife Jill Krementz to live in Biafra and do work that was truly worthy, like batting flies away from the mouths of starving children and cleaning the fly larvae from their wounds. KV's "work" was attending swank benefit dinners and hobnobbing other limousine liberals, afterwards writing out a check for the cause. Yes, that's real "work." Anyone can write out a check. I wonder how many Biafran refugees KV put up in his swank upper West Side apartment?
42 - ss
"America hating ingrates'
Dwayne, satirizing America's long, auto-erotic love affair with it's own idealized self portrait doesn't make somebody an 'America hating ingrate'.
It means they've chosen to love America by trying to be honest with it, rather than drowning in ego boosting flattery.
43 - WTF
Dwayne,
There is absolutely nothing you can add to my experience regarding "men who fought wars" I was raised by them, I fought with them, I talk to them every single day, and not a single day goes by that I don't think about them.
44 - duckrun2
I, no we apoligize. Reading your comments about Vonnegut has made me realize how my generation has failed you and failed the world. 40 years ago we really thought that we could make a difference and would end poverty in America and prevent starvation in the world. But somehow all the ism's- socialism, communism, capatialism could not answere the question. The question is simply; how do we do it without breaking anything? I confess, it cannot be done. S5 was a great read and will stand the test of time. If you believe Vonnegut is a sadistic old man- you are right! It comes with age if you are a liberal and some one day realize that you cannot make a difference. If you are a conserative, you have no such days. Your old age is spent counting quaters, millions of them, while 1/2 a mile away children are hungry.
s5 was about telling the world about Dresden Germany, about murder at 10,000 feet. It was not an American operation, the British planes attacked a peaceful city and killed more people than both atomic bombs that America employed some time later. S5 helped a generation understand the bruitality of war, much like "all quite on the wester front" did for the survivirs of WW1. The fact that the book did so with humor is indeed sadistic. Bravo. Our time has come and gone, pity we could not have done more, but you see we were so very busy, busy, busy. Times flies and before you know it- your an old man writing dribble on a computer to ubknown faces in a blog, trying to justify a piss poor generation of capatilist. And the pity is you are one of them.
45 - Blogs are a waste of time
It becomes clear, reading this trash, how the "minds" of Repugnicans work. POWs & soldiers are all heroes, the elderly all deserve respect---unless they disagree with your worm's eye view of the world and politics. Vonnegut has earned his right to an opinion; most of you dinks haven't. At most, one might say that Vonnegut's post-WW2 vision of a Utopian America was disappointed, and that tends to color his work---further, that's a good thing; there's a service only the bravest perform, and it's called social criticism, and it doesn't come from Fat Cats like Limbaugh, I assure you. Freedom of speech is great thing, as long as nobody uses it, is that it? Anyway, this whole page strays pretty far from being a book review---but then again, what can you expect from blogs? You people wouldn't know patriotism if it bit you on the ass.
46 - WTF
Then go patrio-ize something. Vonnegut gave us the best years of his life. I respect that, I respect him, because of his life experiences.
I am not a respector of armchair social experts, who have little human experience with what the argue against.
Vonnegut has his demons, we all do. But he was forced into the phalanx and didn't like what he experienced. And told us what that experience was all about.
I have no qualms with experienced liberals, just loud know-it-all-do- nothing-that-might-leave-a-scar liberals. So to speak.
And you know what... I think blogs are a waste of time. Everyone has a soapbox, and the venue is used to wallow around in thier own personal glory. But I don't buy that. There is some value here. If anything, just observing how screwed up a lot of people really are. Some comments are based in unreality, in the la-la land of pollyanna... life doesn't work that way, but there are ways to effectively deal with circumstance. Throwing money at at deficiencies, or throwing up your arms in surrender isn't always the correct response. Sometimes just gutting it out works, at least it steels your meddle. That's experience.
47 - WTF
Duckrun2... the 'isms... that's good.
Don't forget the Economists... Marx, Engles, Bastiate and several other notable figures in history.
I have observed through a historical perspective that ecomonic theory has really shaped the world in which we live in. Why is that?
PBS did a great series called "Commanding Heights" I recommend you go up and pull down the series transcripts, well worth the read. An eye-opener.
48 - The Duke
"Whatever happened to the type of men who did their job, went home to their families, and lead their lives quietly without drawing attention to themselves or their service?" -- Dwayne Hoover.
Dwayne, think about what you wrote, it's a great testament.
I'll tell you what happened to them.
Nobody ever heard from them again. They live and they die.
My brother-in-law showed up on my doorstep last January, eaten up with cancer. A Vietnam vet, lived right, didn't smoke, drink, ate healthy... but was ate up with pancreatic; lung, stomach and liver cancer... had nowhere to turn. Came to my house, I'm not even married to his sister any longer, but we had a bond from our like experiences. I took him in, got him hooked up with Medicare, VA, and a couple of crackerjack Vietnam veteran advocates. He had a terrible 3 months ahead of him, and he passed away... probably agent orange related, he was a Huey crew chief, and was soaked with dioxin on many occasions. His last days were "why me? What did I do to deserve this? All I wanted was to live my life in peace! Please Lord take me now!" It was absolutely heartbreaking. He was a proud, intelligent man who had been really shit on by, his government, his ex-wife, and the 4 children he raised alone. No one in his entire family could take him in and care for him properly. Not even the VA (red tape you understand).
Now, why would I not be bitter about that? I'm not bitter. I did what I could for him, in the last days of his life. He was a brother in arms, a person I had known for 30 years. But the reality is that this man was chewed on and spit out... That's why the old saying to render unto Caesar’s what is Caesar’s rings true in my mind now. It doesn't matter what you do, where your allegiance’s lay... when it comes down to it, you have to be true to yourself, and follow your heart, seek peace because it's not coming from anywhere but inside your breast. The hope of the calling is what counts... not the surrounding noise and superfluous BS.
That’s my brother-in-law’s story, he did his job, went home to his family, and lead his life quietly without drawing attention to himself or his service, and Nobody will ever know:
The crappy poker hand he was dealt in life.
His final words, the struggles he gutted out.
The inability to seamlessly enter into institutions designated for him, in his dire time of need.
Sadly, he’s not alone. The Vietnam Veteran advocacy groups and people I have been talking with tell me there are thousands and thousands of people out there just like him. And nobody knows about it.
Go up to Google and type in Faces on the Wall, there is a lady in Washington State who has assembled a county by county accounting of the boys who died during Vietnam, in many cases she has researched and put high school graduation pictures and other information to the names. It will rent your heart and the youth who was wasted.
I made it out of Vietnam 2 months early because Nixon ended the conflict. Nixon who everybody hated, loathed, spit on… Saved my ass. I love that guy; Nixon saved my brother, my sister and myself. I don’t care what anyone says about Nixon… he had his demons too. But that man SAVED MY ASS. I know it.
Vonnegut can talk all he wants to. Too many people (myself included) went home and led quiet lives, trying to forget, recovering from the numbness of death, walking death, killer angels… whatever terminology you want to apply… maybe we shouldn’t have.
Am I bitter? No, that is my story. I’m fine with it. I did my duty, I served with pride, and did a damn fine job of it, for my country who fed me a bunch of BS as to why I needed to put my butt in the line of fire.
49 - Dwayne Hoover
Duke: thank you for your service to our country and my condolensces for the loss of your brother-in-law, who died a true hero because he fought until the bitter end.
Our government isn't perfect but it's still the best government on this planet. It does what it can. Disabled vets from any war of the past were always given marginal compensation. This agent orange issue has not been absolutely verified (by the info I've read over the years) as the only cause for all cancers suffered by vets. The government cannot be placed in a position to be exploited by greedy lawyers looking to file massive damage suits while representing any vet with cancer.
"why me? What did I do to deserve this?
If you know your Vonnegut, you'd know that this very question is asked by one of his characters. The reply was "Why YOU? Why anybody?"
That's pretty much how I look at life. Life deals you a set of cards. You just have to play the hand, for good or for ill. I knew WW2 vets that came home missing limbs. They didn't act like many of the Vietnam vets, whom I am sorry to say, conducted themselves, en masse, rather shamefully in the last thirty years. When you piss and moan about your service, you denigrate the service of those that didn't make it home. THAT IS FACT! I don't recall any WW2 or Korean War vet conducting themselves like many Vietnam vets. Why some people think the government owes them something beyond their normal liberties has always been a mystery to me. That blood had to be spilled to ensure those freedoms for ALL people, white or yellow skinned, did you and some of your buddies forget that?
for my country who fed me a bunch of BS as to why I needed to put my butt in the line of fire.
Yours was not to question why. You listened to the wrong people to think that way. You listened to the fifth columnists like Ron Kovic and Walter Cronkite. Do you think that people questioned their service in past wars like they did after Vietnam? The answer is "no."
50 - Dwayne Hoover
I am not a respector of armchair social experts, who have little human experience with what the argue against.
You know this for fact?
But he was forced into the phalanx and didn't like what he experienced. And told us what that experience was all about.
I was forced into a "phalanx" as well in my early 20s and I survived. Yet, unlike many of my generation, I didn't turn on my country or become a sniveling ingrate. I actually became more appreciative of what life had to offer elsewhere and I took full advantage of it. No, I did not fight in Vietnam, but was involved in a war thousands of miles away from Indochina that was still rife with violence and death.
I also knew people that survived concentration camps in Germany and they were able to continue their lives without pissing and moaning as to how they were treated by the Nazis.
And you know what... I think blogs are a waste of time.
Yet here you are, on your own little soapbox. You and some others here think that to have idealized hopes for Utopia is noble. I think it's foolish. The only aspiration one really needs is the will to survive at all cost.
51 - The Duke
Hoover.
You're a fake. You're sucking people into argument, then upping the personal experience ante at every subsequent entry. I'm not buying it.
SeeYa... wouldn't wanna be ya.
52 - Dwayne Hoover
You're a fake.
Right, who's the one claiming to have fought in Vietnam and having the brother in law vet that died (supposedly) from agent orange induced cancer? It sounds like something Ron Kovic would write.
For a change, why not read up on your world history and learn what other military skirmishes were happening around the middle 70s. Here's a hint, it didn't involve the US and wasn't happening in Indochina.
I'm not buying it.
Likewise. If you expect people to buy your line, then you have to offer the same courtesy to others. It cuts both ways, buddy. If you don't like the fact that I've pissed all over your woe-is-me-the-poor-soldier rap then just say so, rather than the cowardly way you've chosen to retort.
53 - Michael J. West
With all due respect, Dwayne, I'm seeing an awful lot of unsupported speculations on your part here.
Comment 2: He obviously learned nothing from World War II, except to obsess over Dresden.
Comment 4:
I seriously doubt that he fought proudly. "Reluctantly" would be more accurate.
Comment 39:
A majority of the artists in America are parasites and contribute nothing to how this country pursues its strategic military and commercial interests.
Comment 41:
most likely, KV did not leave his cushy upper West Side apartment shared with second wife Jill Krementz to live in Biafra and do work that was truly worthy
But after all that, in comment 50 you challenge someone else by asking "You know this for a fact?"
That's a bit unfair.
54 - Michael J. West
Another thing I have to disagree with you on, Dwayne: when someone expresses disbelief in the explanations given for why he should put his life on the line, your answer is,
Yours was not to question why.
I disagree. This is the United States of America, a country BORN out of challenging the actions of its government.
And when my government tells me to risk my life--when it tells me to do ANYTHING--it is more than just my place to question why. It is my duty as an American.
55 - davidt
Whoa. What a sad discussion. Mr. Vonnegut indeed traveled to Biafra in the 70s, at some length.
And I'm stunned, flat out stunned, that Mr. Hoover and others are trying to smear Vonnegut's war record. For Christ's sake, not only did he fight in some of the bloodiest battles of WWII, he was a POW. Yeah, right, he's an armchair observer.
And smearing his mildly left politics as America hating? I hardly know where to start but I think he's for truth, equality, and justice in politics and believes that part of that is a safety net for the poorest. If you think that's un-American, well, I recommend reading the basic founding documents of America again.
And speaking of smearing and foreign wars, is Mr. Hoover saying that he fought (or was simply visiting a country at war) in the Yom Kippur war?
56 - WTF
Maybe it was Rhodesia. SOF magazine and all that.
I was never in a war... just 2 HUGE mobilization exercises. Bosnia and "Gulf War" 1. We rolled right over everything in our path. It was amazing. It was almost an outing. I drove trucks and other support vehicles. I even had a weapon I nevered fired. Does that make me a hero? Or just part of the larger picture. Armies run on thier stomachs, that means transport.
Vonnegut? Great speaker. I don't know how lucid he is today, but I have seen some great interviews with him over the years.
Now let me ask everyone a question.
I heard a story about a guy that was at the bus terminal or airport ready to go to boot camp during Vietnam. His father, who wasn't very well off (it was the 60's and the economy was different back then). Took his son aside and pulled out a roll of money, he told his son that if he wanted he could take that money and go to Canada, where he would be safe.
OHMYGAWD! He did what! Blasphamy?
Not at all. The old man had been through WWII, hit the beaches at Normandy, and lived through one of the most hellish experiences in world history. He knew what lay ahead for his son. He knew what destruction and mayhem was all about. He knew what an impression that experience had left upon his life. And it was a very negative impression.
His son, didn't accept the money, went to boot camp, went to Vietnam and made it back in one piece.
But how can you fault that father's logic? I can't. Just as I can't fault Vonnegut's logic either.
57 - Paul Lazzaro
davidt, you've missed the entire point. No one was calling vonnegut an armchair observer.
The basic foundations of our country is rugged individualism and a non-intrusive limited government. People like vonnegut want cradle to grave socialism and a societal utopia than can't ever exist.
"Traveling" to Biafra? So what? If I were a celeb, I could fly to any impoverished nation, conduct a photo op holding some starving children, then hop back on the plane home to my comfy digs with no real sacrifice made. I see you are very impressed with symbolic gestures. I for one, am not.
58 - Paul Lazzaro
wtf, the father in that story made the grave mistake of listening to traitors like walter cronkite and others in the useless press who made many Americans believe that the war is Vietnam couldn't be won.
Reading these posts, the generational schism is clear. The WWII generation did their duty without question. The selfish and spoiled baby boomers frame their service to their country based on what the government is/was doing for them. Duke liked Nixon because Nixon saved HIM personally, not what Nixon did for the entire country. Too bad the selfish baby boomers couldn't take to heart what their darling hero JFK used to say about "Ask not ..."
59 - Temple Stark
The obvious difference between WWII and Vietnam and ... ??? is the cause.
60 - Padraig
I have just seen an interview with Kurt Vonnegut on CNN Europe. I'd never heard of nor read any of his work. I'm really looking forward to going out tomorrow to buy his latest book. It sounds great and I really liked what I heard him say. His healthy anti-Bush and anti-American-imperialism attitutes are very refreshing and badly needed.
61 - Rumfoord
Funny that such a materially wealthy man as Kurt Vonnegut would piss all over a country that provided him with the means to freely write and sell his books for a handsome profit.
That's gratitude fer ya!
62 - Michael J. West
It's also a country that guaranteed his right to piss all over it.
63 - davidt
Depends, as they say, on what you mean by "pissing all over."
Vonnegut dearly loves America--enough to fight, enough to be a POW, enough to celebrate America in everyone of his books. However, he expects his fellow man, as well as his country, to aspire to high ideals, to be reasonably ethical, to use our heads, and to stand up against injustice. He's critical of the Bush administration because he thinks they don't care about America, they only care about themselves. (He's not uptopian, btw, he's very clear that governments are frequently corrupt, inefficient, and repressive. His expectations are modest.) Boiling down his criticism to a sentence, I end up with "Bush and Co. are using up the political/financial/moral capital of America for their own good, at the expense of our grandchildren."
Vonnegut says he always strived to leave the world a somewhat better place than he found it but Bush and Co. are damaging the rule of law, the enviroment, our international standing, and the lives of everyone poorer than the top half of one percent of the population, all at the expense of our children
When your child gets into trouble and you hold him accountable do you say you are "pissing all over him"? I don't think so. Vonnegut is pissing on Bush and Co. And he's sad that his fellow citizens let Bush continue to rule but he's not pissing on America.
64 - Mike Hunt
Well, Mr. West, I was taught the valuable lesson of showing basic gratitude to your benefactor(s) for your success, which IMO trumps the often vague and open-ended language of a 200+ year old legal document. Basic personal behavioral expectations like showing respect to your bettors, your elders, and authority, for example, transcends legal parameters.
65 - Michael J. West
So if your government behaves in a way that disgusts and infuriates you, you should just shut up about it?
66 - Padraig
It's true that people like K. Vonnegut and Michael Moore both benefit enormously from the fact that they live and work in a country which not only tolerates, but even encourages, criticism and denigration of the powers that be. Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, China (to name but a very few) would never allow such attacks on their own governments. However that does not, absolutely not, mean that people in free countries should shut up and just accept what their governments decide to do regardless of how they personally feel about it. That would be a total contradiction: "be grateful that you live in a free country but don't dare exercise your right to benefit from that freedom!"
67 - ponzu
Padraig, while your enthusiasm for Vonnegut's writing is commendable, this latest book in question is not characteristic of his prose. It's not even fiction. Vonnegut is know first and foremost for such masterpieces as God Bless You, Mr. Rosewater, Jailbird, Mother Night, Cat's Cradle, Welcome to the Monkeyhouse, etc. I know that Slaughterhouse Five is supposed to be his most "important" work, but I named the ones that leave you feel better about the human race, not worse.
Do yourself a favor and start with one of those books.
68 - ponzu
Vonnegut's critics label him as a leftist, socialist etc., because those are therms they understand and feel comfortable despising. I don't know if he is those things, we should ask him, I guess. Personally, I have heard him describe himself, and am used to considering him a humanist. This is his credo (as cited in the review):
"We humanists try to behave as decently, as fairly, and as honorably as we can without any expectation of rewards or punishments in an afterlife."
What is so hard to understand about this position? It's the one I, for one, live by, thanks to my father, therefore I have always found Vonnegut's ability to express and promote my ideals refreshing. Just because he does not consider our present day reality an appropriate setting for his idealism, and elects to sound somber, sardonic and skeptical, does not and will never change the importance of his life's work to enlighten and improve the human condition.
69 - kat
[edited]
70 - nugget
you see ponzu,
humanism is the underlying pseudo-religion that harvests socialist sentiments. Humanists are some of the worst reactionists because they feign a countenance of sound rationalism and refuse to admit that we are irrational, emotional, drinking, screwing, cheating, loving, crying HUMANS. We are far from perfect and cannot depend on anything that might seem perfect. Vonnegut was and IS a jejune hopeless romantic.
71 - nugget
"It's the one I, for one, live by, thanks to my father, therefore I have always found Vonnegut's ability to express and promote my ideals refreshing"
That is grossly naive, and dare I say that a self-proclaimed "humanist" paves himself a road to continuous disgust and disappointment.
Anyone that believes that the human race will evolve out of some need for religion and put an end to war is likewise saying that they could accomplish unadulterated peace on all existing 5th grade playgrounds. Grownups are big kids and will always fight. There will always be bullies and the smart psycho kid that wants revenge later on.
humanism? Vonnegut? bleh.
72 - Harrison Bergeron
dear moderators: comment 69 is in violation of the comment policy that's selectively enforced on this website based on who's posting.
73 - Mary K. Williams
Paul: Actually, someone did make that reference - Dwayne Hoover, Comment #41
"I see, Mr. Hart, but most likely, KV did not leave his cushy upper West Side apartment shared with second wife Jill Krementz to live in Biafra and do work that was truly worthy, like batting flies away from the mouths of starving children and cleaning the fly larvae from their wounds. KV's "work" was attending swank benefit dinners and hobnobbing other limousine liberals, afterwards writing out a check for the cause. Yes, that's real "work." Anyone can write out a check. I wonder how many Biafran refugees KV put up in his swank upper West Side apartment?"
But this makes me wonder, in the general sense, what IS so wrong about staying home and writing a check? Dosn't it "take all kinds" to get shit done in the world? Some can go do the hands on thing, others can stay home and write the check. If the job gets done, isn't that the most important thing?
74 - davidt
Well, this is ususual--reading the last 70 posts and the lazy review at the top over the last couple days has changed my opinion of A Man without a Country. Now, after reading AMWAC several times, I like it.
At first, I thought KV was part of the problem and basically irrelevant to a discussion of what to do about Bush. When I first read the book I thought KV was too cranky and scattershot to make an effective case against Bush and the neocons but, now, after reading the book in the context of this discussion, I like KV a lot more. KV's better educated than his critics, for one. Sure he leaves a lot out, in fact he doesn't really attempt to defend his (very mild) socialist views, his pacifism, and his hate of corruption. However, he's fairly specific in his complaints and he provides workable but sketchy examples. Compared to the shrill, short tempered, and lazy critics in this list, KV's a fucking genius. And, although very dark, he manages to say "Bush has fucked our country" with humor and effeciency.
I gave away my copy to a friend and was able to recommend it as a useful--and fun--read. You don't have to be a Martian to wonder: What _is_ it about blowjobs and golf? (If you haven't read AMWAC, that's written on one of KV's graphics that are scattered throughout the book.)
75 - Texas Craig T
Trust your government blindly because they sure haven't screwed anything up in the past. It is your duty, as an American, to not ask questions. Stars N' Stripes! Our government wasn't founded by questioning an established government. No one has the right to question the infalibility of our leaders, no matter how crazy their ideas. We have been spoonfed the truth our entire lives. It's time to start eating the solid food of patriotism, boys. Who could possibly profit from war, racism, extortion, embezzlement, fear, and terrorism. No one!
It's simple: All liberals are communists looking for handouts and all republicans are self-made greedy oil tycoons and you get to decide who wears the white hat!
Things are great here. There is no suffering and it's an equal playing field. A poor minority child growing up in the Mississippi school system has the same chance at success as the son of a Kennedy, or at least it's better than it could be. (I beat my wife when I drink, but that's a helluva lot better than some of you guys that beat your old ladies when your sober). Pull yourself up by your boot straps, even if you've never had boots (and people are pissing on you). It can only make you stronger (and swimming up current will Texas-size your arms!)
There is a rainbow (and not a homosexual rainbow, mind you) poised over this perfect country. We are the pride and joy of this world. We are the very definition of success, 10% has 90%. We have a flawless foreign policy. We're the McDonalds of foreign policy.
We've licked the war on drugs. (We'll have to explain what drugs are to are grandchildren).
God bless America and no one else, because we got it right!!!
What possible reason could we have for questioning our government? They're fixing this whole terrorism thing, right? Next time someone vandalizes my car, I could attack the local school. That's how to solve the problem. Even if i don't get the guy responsible, I'm quite sure he'll get the message that the metalic pea green on my 87 Taurus doesn't run (and I can resolve my problems with the PTA).
God Bless America and Mr. Hoover (Who didn't get a hug and now feels that no one should get one cuz he didn't) :-(
And no blessings for Mr. Vonnegut. How dare he question our government. At his age he should know, it's the teenagers that know it all.
yee haw! i taped the cowboy's game, don't tell me the score.
Status Quo Rodeo 2006