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Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - El Bicho
I like Sam Kinison's description of the Resurrection. Much more believable.
27 - Christopher Rose
I too visited that creation site but had to stop reading and go take a bath after 10 minutes, I felt so corrupted and dirty.
What an appalling abuse of both science and language!
*shudders*
28 - Dillon Mawler
Ahahahaha! Dr. Dreadful, that is hilarious. Thanks for making me smile. Jesus was just like my uncle Marty, who was declared dead on the operating table, but was revived! Miracle! Praise Marty!
Seriously, the various levels of what faithists will accept as "logical" proof that their stories actually happened is contorted beyond belief.
...and if the lake was heavily saline, and if Jesus wove special "snowshoe-style" sandals, and it wasn't too windy that day, then he could have actually walked on water...
29 - Christopher Rose
I'm a fan of the English magician Dynamo, who does some of the most literally awesome tricks I have ever seen.
In one of them he is walking through London and walks down some steps leading to the River Thames and literally walks right out onto the river and out to the middle. I was impressed, to say the least!
30 - Dillon Mawler
That's cool but not enough to convert me to Dynamism. Does he do anything with loaves and fishes, or unlimited wine?
I love magic too, so I watched a couple of D's youtube vids. He's got close-up and sleight-of-hand skills, too. NIce.
31 - Sara Davison
Unfortunately, this debate is one that has raged for centuries without clear resolution. The problem, of course, is that each side views the issues through a different lens, speaks a different language, if you will. I would recommend two great books on the subject by Lee Strobel, The Case for Faith and The Case for Christ if those of you arguing against a belief in a higher power have any interest in researching the subject further. I do have one question though; I have always been interested in what it is about the subjects of faith and Christianity that evoke such hostility and animosity. If, as some of you have insisted, you believe that the Bible and the Christian faith specifically are nothing more than a collection of superstitions and mythology, then why waste time and breath adamantly opposing them? You wouldn’t be incensed by a child who tells you that they believe in Santa Claus, would you? Of course not, because you know for absolute fact that there is no Santa Claus, and therefore that child’s belief does not threaten you in any way. I also cannot comprehend your opposition to teaching children Biblical truths as a way to live their lives. A careful reading of the Bible with an open mind - not taking the easy way out and dismissing it all as metaphorical - reveals certain principles. Principles such as; love your enemies, respect authority, do not commit adultery or murder, do not lie under oath, take care of widows and orphans in their time of need, give to the poor and, as much as it is in your power, be at peace with everyone. Principles that were exemplified in the life and teachings of the historical figure, Jesus Christ. At worst, people who follow these guidelines just because they are wise and right make strong, happy, contributing members of society. At best, those who follow these principles out of a love, respect and commitment to a greater power, also live lives of peace, joy, and a hope for a future. And, ultimately, that is what this is all about, isn’t it, the desire to know if there is more to this life than just this life, the question of whether what we do and believe here on earth affects what happens to us after our lives are over? So while you may mock Violet’s assertion that one day we will all know the truth, in actual fact that statement is the only way for those of us on both sides of the belief in God issue to respectfully conclude our debate.
32 - Christopher Rose
Sara, apart from your inability to use paragraphs, there are other major problems with your argument.
The case for either faith or Jesus is irrelevant to the fundamental issue of a creator, for which there is zero evidence.
The reason people who don't buy in to this creation myth argue against it is because of the enormous political, financial and cultural influence the churches have, unlike Santa Claus who has no such power.
There is nothing fundamentally wrong with the biblical principles but there is a lot wrong with the political power wielded by the three sick strands of monotheism, Judaism, Christianity and Islam and the often violent competition between them.
It would be fine if these faithists confined themselves to following their doctrines but none of these cults seem able to prevent themselves from trying to impose their values on others, which is a serious global problem.
Finally, Violet's assertion is as ludicrous as it is unverifiable, so it is nothing more than a trite remark.
33 - Sara Davison
Well, I suppose, Christopher, if all else fails, attacking the way someone has laid out their arguments on the page is one way to go " grin.
As for bringing Jesus into this, since, according to the Bible, the world was made through him, he is hardly irrelevant in any discussion of creation.
And your argument that you are on the side of those that don’t subscribe to a belief in God because those who do don’t “seem able to prevent themselves from trying to impose their values on others” is self-defeating. Self-proclaimed atheistic nations such as China and North Korea impose their values on others daily by torturing, imprisoning, and putting to death those who refuse to deny their beliefs. That’s a fairly serious global problem as well.
34 - Christopher Rose
Sara, unlike yours, nothing about my arguments is failing, but please do carry on deceiving yourself as it provides a modest level of entertainment.
I've no idea what on earth "the world was made through him" means and am fairly sure that isn't what the bible says, but if you want to try and substantiate that argument, go for it.
My argument about the busybody nature of faithists isn't in the slightest contradicted by the events in countries like China and North Korea, which is a completely different problem.
However, I didn't say that I was on the side of those who don't subscribe to a belief in a deity for that reason. For the record, I don't care whether there is a creator or not but there is zero evidence to support the idea, a point you seem unwilling to engage with.
You really need to polish up your logical and debating skills if you want to carry on this debate...
35 - roger nowosielski
Would Sarah win her debate with you, Christopher, if she were St. Thomas Aquinas?
You know she wouldn't, so why do you mislead her?
36 - Sara Davison
And in answer to your question about the world beng made through Christ, Christopher, that is found in the book of John, in the New Testament, where it says, in reference to Jesus, "1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2)He was in the beginning with God. 3) All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4) In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5) And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
37 - Glenn Contrarian
Sara -
Concerning John 1:1, if you'll look up the Greek, you'll see that if properly translated, it says, "the Word was divine", rather than "the Word was God". This is because "Theos" without the declarative "ho" is not a noun, but an adjective. The Catholic saint Jerome translated it as a noun in his Latin Vulgate, and almost every translation since then has taken "Theos" as a noun rather than as an adjective.
This might not initially seem like a big deal, but trinitarians tend to get unhappy when I tell them that there are no verses in the Bible stating that Jesus is or ever was God - if you want to point out other verses I'll be happy to show you the difference between the earliest translations and what we now see. The erroneous translation of John 1:1 is a prime example of what trinitarians use to prove their belief.
38 - Sara Davison
Glenn, that's a whole different debate that would take us pretty far from where we started here. The verse I was attempting to highlight in John 1 was actually the third verse, that all things were made through Christ, and without Him nothing was made that was made. All that to say that Christ cannot be left out of a discussion on the creation theory as He is central to it.
39 - Christopher Rose
Roger, there is enough gibberish going on in this thread without you speaking in tongues, so please keep your meaningless irrelevancies to yourself whilst the grown-ups try to sort the wheat from the chaff.
Sara, once again you demonstrate that careless and woolyminded nature; the quote you reproduce doesn't mention Jesus but your fictitious deity.
As even your co-believer Glenn has noticed even your strand of this monotheist deception is confused as to what it believes.
It's high time we all grew up, accepted personal responsibility for our actions and relegated this shameful superstition to the level of that other absurdity, astrology.
40 - Sara Davison
As no one seems capable of stating an opinion worthy of your respect, Christopher, it also seems like time to end this discussion.
I do respectfully decline your invitation to engage in a debate on creation versus evolution. As you correctly pointed out, my debating skills are weak, largely because, unlike some, I am not interested in devoting precious days of my life to arguing matters I have admitted that I couldn’t care less about one way or the other.
Besides which, Psalms 19 verse 1 says “the heavens declare the glory of God,” and Romans 1 verse 20 says, “For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.”
If you can study the NASA pictures coming back from the Hubble telescope revealing indescribably beautiful universes we never even knew existed, or look around you and witness the order and design of all creation without being able to see a designer behind all of that, then there is nothing I or anyone else can say that will convince you differently.
41 - roger nowosielski
@39
There is nothing unclear about my comment about your comment. You're imploring Sarah to improve her debating skills concerning theism while you damn well know that no matter how good or bad her debating skills, they're not going to make a damn of a difference insofar as you are concerned.
Rather empty gesture on your part, Christopher, and all I've done it to point it out to you.
42 - roger nowosielski
@40
I wouldn't worry, Sara, about commanding Christopher's respect. He's one of those modern breed of humans who don't acknowledge their debt to anyone -- a truly self-made person. Christopher has always been a fountain of wisdom all onto himself, so yes, your decision not to debate him is a right one.
43 - Christopher Rose
Oh, plenty of people are capable of that, Sara, but they are all people who are committed to discovery rather than their beliefs. You should try it some time...
If you don't care about defending creationism then I can't help wondering why you got involved in the first place. Presumably you aren't used to having your unfounded opinions challenged.
I've no idea what you were trying to convey in your latest bible quotation as it seems to be yet more meaninglessness.
I regularly view the latest astronomical images and admire their beauty. I am also aware of the wonder of life on our planet but none of that implies or requires a creator.
Furthermore, both this world and everything on it, to say nothing of our own species, have been around a lot longer than the monotheist conjecture, which has only been around for around 5,000 years.
It is an appealing notion in many ways of course, which explains its persistence, but still entirely unsubstantiated so, until that changes, and I am completely happy to accept any such change, I will remain content to resist such folly.
44 - Jet Gardner
Roger Roger Roger, every time I go away for a while I always wind up reminding you about the hazzards of poking bears with sticks...
sigh
45 - troll
Chris - seems to me that your repeated references to the meaninglessness of religious propositions (whatever you mean by that) is pretty pointless...I can't remember any instance of your having convinced anyone not already in your choir in any of your interactions with faithists
you can resist folly to your heart's delight but to what end?
46 - t
(references..are...pointless)
47 - roger nowosielski
Sorry, Jet, a BB gun is all I'm gonna use. Besides, a Christopher is a friendly kind of bear, the kind of bear you can like.
48 - Jet Gardner
Um... we're not talking Christopher Robin and Winnie the Pooh here.
49 - Christopher Rose
Roger, you couldn't be more wrong - a condition you have vast experience with.
Unlike you, I don't consider myself any kind of authority. Furthermore, I am open to the idea that a deity might exist. That said, I've never yet encountered a faithist that can make a coherent case, let alone a convincing one but I remain optimistic that there is one out there somewhere.
As to your #42, you know nothing about me and your portrayal is inaccurate in every degree. Another condition you are more familiar with than you probably believe.
An intelligent mind would ask questions rather than make stuff up, yet that is what you do time after time. Shame you corrupt yourself so much but it is your life.
troll, I'm not in a choir as far as I'm aware but I do believe that if people of faith seek too engage in debate I'm going to do so. It may be folly or may be not but what is life without a little folly in it?
50 - Igor
As a non-theist I usually refrain from these discussions, but this morning I got a glimpse of a stunning new series on PBS called "Catholicism", which walks through many of the historical and artistic sites of the Catholic religion with Robert Barron and is visually and emotionally magnificent. Unfortunately, it is in 480 instead of 720p or 1080i (although available on DVD blue-ray), but you may be luckier.
It is well worth seeing regardless of your religious orientation, if any.
Even a crusty old irreligionist, such as me, is impressed by the fabulous beauties created by the church, and the profound emotional movements of its believers.
51 - violet
For seekers, this website may be interesting and specifically this article.
52 - Jet Gardner
The bible is nothing more-nothing less than a set of morality tales plagiarized from centuries old folk legends meant to control and mold an unruly and uneducated population of nomads. Every story is related centuries after the alleged events. Look how accurately the right wing and religious nuts are re-telling the story of America’s founding fathers and then tell me you trust that mindset’s accuracy!
53 - roger nowosielski
The point really is, Christopher, that you're badgering these people. It would a far more honest editorial policy for BC to simply refuse to publish their articles than to have the authors subjected to your verbal abuse.
I wouldn't give a damn if you were just "am average bear," but being you're a senior comments editor, you do represent this site, however unfavorably, and it's a not a good thing.
I know you're too thickheaded to pay heed to these subtleties, but here I am again, poking a stick at my favorite bear.
54 - Jet Gardner
Roger it is possible for a comments editor to be a separate entity from BC. You'ree guilty of what you're thoughtlessly accusing him of, trying to stifle his own personal opinions on the subject.
Can you say hypocrite boys and girls?
55 - troll
my contribution to this folly:
violet - the world is chained as effect - effect - effect...arguments from first cause are 'sophistry and illusion'
(channeling a cool philosopher (who had Hobbes beat hands down))
orange rocks!
56 - Christopher Rose
Roger, when it comes to badgering people, my opinion is that you are more guilty of that than almost anybody else.
Furthermore, you often do it in an aggressive, rude and, worst of all, uncomprehending way, so I'm not really inclined to accept your point.
Additionally, I am merely responding to other people's comments, which is surely the whole point of the comments space.
As to my role here, not for the first time, here is some clarification for you; I am not senior in any meaningful way, except in terms of time served, and have zero influence in the way this site operates, although I wish I did as it has many issues that need urgent attention.
Yes, I am the Comments Editor, but I don't see my role or myself as representing the site in any way except for applying our very tolerant and liberal guidelines, which I am also bound by.
I think the most important elements of the site are the writers, the commenters and the editors, in that order. Beyond that there are the silent readers and the owners, about both of which we know almost nothing.
In my view, from a site visitor's point of view, its presence is a compound of those who participate in it, which is the writers and commenters, so you are just as much if not more a representative of it than I.
57 - roger nowosielski
It's not the content of Christopher's opinions that I'm objecting to, Jet, but his verbal barrage.
It's not one of your better days.
58 - roger nowosielski
Wrong, Christopher, a condition to which you're far more accustomed than I, if I may return the favor.
At the very least, my heated exchanged with the Contrariuan or zing, are with the people I knwo, in a manner of speaking. It's "all in the family," so to speak, and what's in the family is far more tolerable than what's between perfect strangers.
So 'scuse me for saying it, but you do come across on these threads as a bull in a china shop, uncouth the the nth degree and intolerably rude. And it's got nothing to do with the content of your drive-by comments, just with your total lack of disrespect.
I know you can't help it and that it's beyond your comprehension, but that's no excuse.
59 - roger nowosielski
... heated exchanges ...
60 - Costello
Chris' lack of self awareness that the beginning of #56 is more applicable to him, as proven by this thread alone, is staggering.
61 - Glenn Contrarian
Roger - Chris
Pot - Kettle - black
And the current 'discussion' between the two of you seems like nothing more than a lovers' quarrel.
*ducks back into foxhole after having committed the grave error of deliberately interrupting a lovers' quarrel*
62 - Cindy
I transcribed this quote recently. looks like it fits here, maybe.
"...what they [scientists] observe and what they believe is creating what they observe are often quite separate from each other..." --Fred Alan Wolf
63 - Christopher Rose
Roger, I love the way you make up the imaginary world you inhabit; it would be charming if it wasn't so utterly unconnected to reality.
And my "total lack of disrespect"? That is a classic Nowosielskism, out of control, a lack of care and misfiring in all directions.
Costello, your drive by shooting before running away again is so predictable, as is your prejudice. Both combine to reduce any import you words could have had to zero.
Glenn, you complete the unholy trinity perfectly with your remark. Thanks once again for the considerable light you manage to shine upon any exchange.
Cindy, nice to see you around the place again but the relevance of that quote evades me.
Why wouldn't those two quite distinct things often be quite separate? Is there a requirement that they shouldn't be?
64 - Jet Gardner
It's all my fault really, I keep forgetting I'm only supposed to comment on my own articles...
65 - roger nowosielski
Good to hear from you, Cindy.
66 - Jet Gardner
I realise this is like asking Sheldon Cooper something but "total lack of disrespect"?
67 - Jet Gardner
Chris; Americans have never understood English humor and vice versa... sigh
68 - Glenn Contrarian
Chris -
Don't let your paranoia about everyone being against you detract from the reality that everyone really is against you. Always remember that you're right and everyone else is wrong, and anyone who says otherwise is just another idiot.
signed,
Just Another Idiot
69 - roger nowosielski
Right right, Jetski. A double negative.
You're so fucking brilliant.
70 - Jet Gardner
Thank you for proving my point Roger
71 - roger nowosielski
I said you're brilliant. What more do you want? A pretty please on top of it, with sugar on top?
Please clean the fucking car!
72 - Jet Gardner
I washed it this morning-shut up and get my breakfast. bitch bitch bitch
73 - roger nowosielski
Not until you get those bloody clothes off and I scrub you dry.
74 - roger nowosielski
Everything to good Rosey here is imaginary if it doesn't accord with his conception of things.
A good ole bloke, I must say; and I sure wouldn't mind sharing with him a pint or two at the nearest watering hole -- just as with George Dubya, so I hear.
Gotta love that average bear!
75 - Christopher Rose
Glenn, let me correct your multiple errors. I'm not paranoid; everyone isn't against me; three people isn't "everyone"; and I don't think either that I am right or that everyone else is wrong.
As to idiocy, my experience has been that one person's idiot is another person's genius.
Personally, I don't care at all whether someone is more or less intelligent than someone else; what matters to me are things like openness, honesty, curiosity and a willingness to think for oneself rather than follow a party line.