I'm not sure how to express what a big deal this is. I believe it may represent one of the seven seals of the apocalypse.
Dr Anthony Flew now believes in God. I'm not sure how to express what a big deal this is. I believe it may represent one of the seven seals of the apocalypse. Soon dogs and cats will begin sleeping with each other and Michael Moore will be publicly repeating the Pledge of Allegiance.…
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76 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
I respect your beliefs, Jet, but you don't at all seem to comprehend mine. The most significant point you cited in comment #74 concerns writing.
The date according to the Hebrew calendar is 5766. According to us, G-d breathed a neshamá into a man - a spirit that could communicate with G-d. That is what occurred 5,766 years ago.
But - and this is according to Jewish scholars - the actual creation of the universe took place 14.3 billion years ago, and the time it took for the interaction of the lesser and greater lights that they posit that it took before the actual creation could take place was 15 billion years.
In an article that appeared a couple of days ago on BC, reference was made to a civilization in Europe that had older implements and what appeared to be a temple of some sort, that was older than 5,700 years. The key item I looked for was evidence of writing. I found none. I happen to think that it is evidence of writing that gives proof of the neshamá's existence.
77 - Jet in Columbus
And here I will admit I was wrong, the 2000 that was stuck in my head was 2000BC not 2000 years old.
Even at 6000 years old, that still doesn't dismiss my original argument from #64.
I will say this, it's nice to see and inteligent discussion here without a lot of name calling and "I'm right and you're not"s
78 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Jet, the reason it doesn't pay to holler "I'm right and you're wrong" is that we'll find out. And when we do, some of us will have egg on our face - or worse.
By the way, I have a towel in hand to help you wiper the egg off of yours, should that be the case. ;-)
79 - Jet in Columbus
Well thanks, but what are the shipping charges from Jerusalem?
80 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
When the messiah comes, there won't be shipping charges - and calling Heaven will be a local call for the whole planet, not just Jerusalem.
81 - Jet in Columbus
Thank God, I have a feeling Arch Conservative was the only one who knew the area code any way!
82 - Jet in Columbus
On the much lighter side... One day St. Peter discovered he could time travel, so he went far into the past, looked around and then zoomed far into the future.
Upon return, he sat down across the table from Jesus and frowned, "Something just occurred to me; why won't the dinosaurs be mentioned in the Bible after they eventually write it?"
Jesus frowned and admitted, "I don't know, I'll have to go ask my Father."
In a little while he returned and sat back down across from St. Peter and groaned, "Well I hope that story never gets out!"
St. Peter's eyebrows rose "Huh?"
"Well the way it was told to me, God created the heavens and Earth in 6 days and on the 7th he rested."
Peter nodded, "Yeah, so?"
"Well apparently on the 8th day he smoked all the marijuana he'd just created, you know just to test the first batch. Then on the 9th day he smoked all the Opium he'd created too, you know just to test out the first batch."
"And?"
"On the 309th day when he woke back up, he created all the monsters he'd seen on the 8th and 9th day!"
Peter's eyes widened, "I hope that story never gets out!"
Jesus shrugged, "Oh don't worry, I don't think anyone will mention it, or even consider it until some guy posts it on a blog over two thousand years from now.......
83 - Christopher Rose
Ruvy: Why should any of us take your views (or those of any other faithist for that matter) seriously when you can't show that this god of yours exists?
All your wonderfully detailed theories are completely irrelevant bunkum that has cruelly deceived millions of poor trusting folk without it.
C'mon, we've been waiting 5000 years, show me evidence, not even proof, just some actual evidence, and I'll be moving to Israel tomorrow.
84 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
You needn't take my views seriously, Chris. I could be wrong. Aaman could be closer to the truth than I.
That's the beauty of it all. All you need do is remain a seeker and have an open mind. If your mind is closed up like an unopened bottle of malaga, it'll burst apart when (note I didn't say if) G-d shows you the Big Picture (you being a "big picture" guy and all, you'll get what you understand best).
If your mind is open to receiving the data, you'll begin to understand and maybe believe what you see and perceive...
That's when you'll hunt down the fellow who is closest to the truth and say "teach me more."
85 - Christopher Rose
My mind is always open, Ruvy, that's why I'm always hopeful of change for the better.
Frankly, I'd be quite happy to live in a god-created universe, it really would make life so much easier in so many different ways.
However, I question how anybody who already believes in a theory such as deist-creationism, for example, can actually have a mind "open to receiving the data"? If you already believe, what use is new information?
I believe I'm alive in either an infinite expanding universe, however that came to be created, or, as the latest scientific theories are considering, the entire perceivable universe is actually nothing more than the inside of a vast dark energy star and that black holes do not in fact exist! lol
Who could not feel wonder, awe, humility and, yes, reverence faced with such intriguing and at-least-partially-grounded-in-reality possibilities?
And who needs absentee deities? Not I for one. Maybe I'm shallow, that's not for me to say, but I need something tangible to worship and if this god of yours can't be bothered, well, neither can I.
86 - Jet in Columbus
#85 Wow Christopher, very well put!
87 - Bliffle
I believe this "Flew" story is very old news, merely revived every few years when some faithist runs across it again.
88 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Chris, you wrote;
"And who needs absentee deities? Not I for one. Maybe I'm shallow, that's not for me to say, but I need something tangible to worship and if this god of yours can't be bothered, well, neither can I."
In 1991, 20,000 apartments were destoyed by the 3 dozen Scud missiles launched by Iraq's army One person died of a heart attack afterwards. In the very same conflict, one Scud hit an American barracks. If memory serves, 200 Americans died. Get a statistician to figure the odds on this.
Israelis saw this and saw a miracle. Even the secular soldiers who have as much use for G-d as you saw that a Force guided the missiles to teach a lesson.
Don't be dismissive of events around you. There is no absentee Deity.
89 - Jet in Columbus
While well put, Ruvy, I'd point out though, that I have a God that allows me to at least put his full name to print or on line. I realize you may be using G-d out of respect, but it looks like you're trying to cover up a cuss word.
I don't fear my God, I respect him, and I doubt if I'd be d--bed to he-- if I used his name occasionally.
90 - gazelle
so antony flew. this side of the pyrrhonic divide.
best
91 - Warren
"While well put, Ruvy, I'd point out though, that I have a God that allows me to at least put his full name to print or on line. I realize you may be using G-d out of respect, but it looks like you're trying to cover up a cuss word.
I don't fear my God, I respect him, and I doubt if I'd be d--bed to he-- if I used his name occasionally."
It's not just out of respect, it's out of reverence. I think Ruvy could probably fill in the details, but IIRC there is an ancient custom of not pronouncing or writing the name of God.
92 - Jet in Columbus
That's kinda what I thought, and I meant no disrespect towards him or his beliefs
93 - Jet in Columbus
Ruvy, that's like comparing an Isreali military attack that kills no one, to a palestinian car bomb that killed dozens. Being in the right place or the right time is all that has to do with it.
Look what Bush's public miricle power of prayer did for all those dead minors in West Virginia, and his prayers that New Orleans would be spared by Katrina.
Coincedence always become divine provedence when it's in your favor.
94 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Jet,
Were there one, two or three Scuds out of the thirty six that hit Israel that produced no casualties in 1991, you argument would stand. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. But more than three dozen right places at the right times? That stretches credulity to the breaking point. If it were not documented, it would be dismissed as a fish story or a novel.
Sometimes, you just cannot dismiss the numbers or the stats.
95 - Christopher Rose
Ruvy, just because something is statistically improbable doesn't mean there is divine intervention when it happens.
The odds of winning the UK lottery are 14 million to 1 yet somebody wins it almost every week.
The universe is a strange place all by itself, it doesn't need imaginary deities but you still lack evidence...
96 - Bliffle
I think it was Montaigne who said: "Man, who cannot make even the lowest worm, nevertheless invents gods by the dozen".
97 - Jet in Columbus
Amen, Bliffle.
Amen
98 - Jet in Columbus
Do you realize that at this very moment the Christian lobby groups are urging President Bush to do more to save a man on trial in Afghanistan for converting from Islam to Christianity?
This is what happens when religion becomes too involved with running government. What if those lobbyists finally disprove the falsity of "separation of Church and State"???
Do you realize that if those same fundamentalist Christian lobby groups become even more powerful here, the same trials could be held in this country if a Christian tried to convert to a a a a Jew, or gasp, a southern baptist tried to convert to Catholism?
Don't laugh, if Jerry Falwell has his way, it could happen sooner than you think!
99 - Steve
Jet, they are not running the govt., just trying to save a man's life. This is not about ESTABLISHMENT of a religion (which is what the seperation of church and state was designed to prevent), merely the freedom for the man to hold to the religion of his choice.
Let's face it, the first sign that a country doesn't care about it's own religious freedoms, is when they don't care about religious freedoms in other countries. It all comes back home eventually.
I don't think you are thinking this through logically.
If Falwell is an evangelical (I believe he is), then he believes trying to force someone to believe in a religion they don't believe in is totally futile, because God sees the heart...if a person's faith is not genuine, it will not save them.
100 - Jet in Columbus
The point I was trying to make is that this is what happens when religious groups begin taking over government, or try to shape policy through their influence with it's leaders.
The Afghan constitution states that no state sponsored religion is permitted. However a loophole in that very constitution states that it must adhere to Muslim law. That law states that the penalty for converting to Christianity from Islam is DEATH.
Would our government be so involved and concerned if a Christian converted to a Muslim and was threatened-I don't think so.
but that's only my opinion...
101 - Steve
Well, Jet,
Sounds to me like you are saying that if it were not for the Christian lobbyists in America, no one would be standing up for religious freedom in the US govt. re. Afghanistan. Isn't it better someone is for some, than to have none for anybody???
Even if what you say is true about the reverse...ok...not perfect, sure, a double standard, sure but... why is no religious freedom a better option??? And if you don't care about folks in other countries re. religious freedom, then who's going to be trying to protect yours outside of the US if your nightmare scenario comes true here in your home country???
If you really believe what you've been saying in your recent posts about religious lobbyists taking over the country, I don't think your isolationist policy on the issue is going to win you any supporters abroad when it's your turn, do you???
If I were you, Jet, I'd be trying to make as many friends abroad as possible, so they can come and rescue you from the religious lobbyists you fear so much in the US.
102 - Jet in Columbus
I'll remind you of that post when the Bush Supreme Court overturns Row vs Wade.
I'll remind you of that post when a few hundred people die because a cure might've been found, but the religious right talked Bush into banning Stem Cell research. And people like Rush Limbaugh claim that Stem Cell research is being done-yeah with a bunch of useless strands.
The United States is falling behind in Science scores because students are avoiding the classes because local governments are forcing teachers to teach religous doctrine like Intelligent Design beside scientific facts.
When was the last time you saw a Jewish star carved in stone in front of a court of law
When was the last time you celebrated a federal Jewish holiday?
When was the last time you heard of Moslim/Islamic doctrine being taught side-by-side im a public school?
...but of course that's only my opinion
103 - Steve
Maybe you should find a country where atheism is the state religion. I somehow doubt you would be any happier there. People in those countries ALWAYS have fewer rights than Americans do. Maybe you should investigate why that is, it might make you appreciate your own country more. If you think America's problems would be solved by Christian influence disappearing in America, I'm sure your study of atheistic nations would change your opinion on that.
104 - Jet in Columbus
Steve, I'm very proud to worship in a Presbyterian Church every Sunday.
I'm talking about the FUNDAMENTALIST Christians, the FUNDAMENTALIST Jews, the FUNDAMENTALIST Muslims, the FUNDAMENTALIST Baptist, who's only claim to fame seems to be that most, if not all of the world's troubles seem to be caused by someone proudly calling themselves a FUNDAMENTALIST.
They somehow seem to think that their is the ONLY way or the highway. They are the ones spouting that if you aren't a born-again something, you can't possibly get into heaven, and that if you don't believe as they do in an extremist kind of way, that that somehow brands you as an ATHEIST
The majority of the average people (myself included) believe in God. We just don't believe in the FUNDAMENTALIST jerks getting rich on their tax free multi-million incomes, thinking that they're the real power behind their respective country because to oppose them is to oppose God.
For them I have no respect at all. I DO have respect for the local minister that's trying to help his local community and NOT the one trying to influence the Government, or to keep a close tally of how many souls they've saved in order to get into heaven
...but that's only my opinion
105 - Steve
Wow, I assumed you might be an atheist only because you seemed to not care about a (what I now realise is a) fellow Christian's freedom of religion in a foreign country. Since when are Christians only supposed to care about people in their own country??? That seems like a rather narrow view of Christian compassion.
106 - Jet in Columbus
The point I was trying to make Steve, was the danger that is obvious when overzealous religous fanatics gain control of a government.
My "Fellow Christian" wouldn't be in the predicament he was in, if there was a clear separation of church and state.
...but of course that's only my opinion
107 - Steve
If there is anything that the 20th century proved it was that leaders can be overzealous whether they are religious or not. Getting rid of religious fundamentalists is not gonna solve human rights issues in countries like China. I think your focus is too narrow.
You seem to fail to realise that a thirst for power can happen to anyone irregardless of religious affiliation because all people are sinners to begin with. Even if you got rid of the religion, the sin would still be there, it's just being used as a cloak much of the time.
However, the example you cited does not illustrate your point very well IMO. Pleading for an innocent man's life is hardly an abuse of power, it seems to me. Afghanistan was liberated by the US after all, it's not like there aren't strong links with the country now. If the govt. you seem to want was so great, it really shouldn't need religious lobbyists to intervene, but it apparently does...be careful what you wish for.
108 - Jet in Columbus
To insinuate that George Bush would've made it into his office without the Religous right, is laughable-if not irresponsible and naive.
To infer that Bush isn't reminded daily that he owes the religous right is also foolish, and you only have to look at the Supreme Court, Stem Cell research bans, and his constant reference to God and praying in every speech.
With every succeeding speech the man sounds more and more like a televangelist.
...But that's only my opinion
109 - Steve
Jet, you sure you got the right thread???
I don't recall saying anything about how George Bush got elected. We were talking about how the country is being governed now.
I'm perfectly aware that Bush made sure he had the support of the religious right because he felt his father lost his second term due to the fact that his father didn't have it. Are you sorry now that Clinton beat Bush Sr.?? Maybe you should be.
110 - Jet in Columbus
Steve our little "back and forth" has been about how religion and politics don't mix. George Bush embodies that very problem.
No I'm not sorry Clinton beat Bush Sr. The right wing threw everything at him from calling him bad names to impeaching him, (which by the way a Republican controlled Congress found him innocent of the lame trumped up charges) and he came out of it still standing, holding his head high in my eyes.
Bush Sr. on the other hand, hell even I thought the man deserved to go up on Mt. Rushmore after the first Gulf war, then I read about all the fudged numbers during that war and thanked God he didn't serve another term... that and he didn't take Saddam out when he could have.
As for GW, has anyone noticed that the jokes usually made about vice presidents have been made about GW instead. It might be because GW is a joke, and there's nothing funny about Cheney. Clinton couldn't be pryied out of the White House with a crowbar and a shotgun, but GW seems to always be either on extended vacation at his ranch, (fixed up on the taxpayer's dime) for months at at time, at Camp David, or flying around the country in Air Force One on the taxpayer's dime for no apparent reason except to defend his rediculous decisions in front of arranged audiences, and to ignore his sub-30 poll numbers.
...but that's only my opinion
111 - Steve
Well, the seperation of church and state is to prevent the establishment of ONE religion over all others, it does not mean that a politician's religious beliefs should not have any bearing on the decisions they make, same with an atheist's. The voters will decide whether the politician made the right decisions or not.
As to Bush's travels, your hyperbole aside, maybe he is not a workholic like Cheney, maybe Cheney would be a healthier man if he wasn't a workoholic. Ditto for Clinton, for that matter.
112 - Jet in Columbus
And that ONE religion is Southern Baptist.
113 - Steve
Jet, I highly doubt the next White House administration, whether it's Rep. or Dem. is going to have the same 'religious' folks you seem to be so paranoid of.
2008, it'll be a whole new ball game...RELAX!!! If you look at American history, these trends come and go thru the centuries, it's only temporary. You are letting your partisan friends' hysteria get to you. Bottom line is, no matter what this admin. tries to do, it can be reversed by the next one. Be patient.
114 - Jet in Columbus
You're probably right
... but then that's only my opinion
115 - Jet in Columbus
"Bottom line is, no matter what this admin. tries to do, it can be reversed by the next one. Be patient."
That's true, after all look what Bush did to the Clinton economy!
116 - Jet in Columbus
Oh sorry, forgot to add my tag line...
...But that's only my opinion
117 - Jet in Co.lumbus
Oh Ruvy, re:comment 94-try dismissing this. The US provided Isreal with patriot anti missile batteries that either shot them down, or damaged them before they could effectively do damamge.
As well read and informed as you are, odd that you forgot that???
...but that's only my opinion
118 - Steve
Well, Jet, we weren't talking about the economy, I was not referring to that.
It seems to me, if the party that's supposed to be fiscally responsible can't control it's spending, I think your whole system is broke, frankly. Being partisan on either side is never gonna improve anything, it seems to me, you need to start thinking outside the partisan box. Because I don't think things are as black and white as either side would like to portray.
119 - Jet in Columbus
Well Steve, I was responding to your own quote at the top of my comment 115
Sheesh!
...but of course that's only my opinion
120 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Jet, I realize that this is a bit late, like a month, but to get back to you and the Patriot missile batteries that the US was so nice to provide us, after making it impossible for our jets to take out Iraqi launching sites. They hit and destroyed three or four Scuds. The Scuds hit 3 dozen sites (actually 39). The rest we discussed. As I pointed out, had three or four Scuds hit and not killed anybody, that woudl have been coincidence. But not thirty-nine. That is one hell of a miracle in my book. And even the secular soldiers in this country could see that, even though others haven't got the sense to.
121 - Jet in Columbus
And on top of that it was recently revealed that a software error in the Patriot Missile system caused the radars to be tracking incoming scuds in the wrong part of the sky, allowing the one that hit our base and killed so many soldiers.
122 - Brith
6 miljon years ago the chimpances developed one way and the human beings one...as far as they know now, digging into their DNA. But everything changes. Article in Science, August 2006.
Beda Ruth
123 - Keelie
I like the way you people deride each other, very progressive....Keep up the good work. No wonder the world is in such spiritual upset, you can't put aside your differences for 1 femtosecond, to actually listen and hear what your fellow man or woman is talking to you about. It starts with one, but cant be completed without all. The world is doomed for failure....I will live my life as a decent, caring and loving individual, I hope you would all try to do the same. My words will fall upon deaf ears though, but to you that listen, may your peace be like fountains of water.