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Bolivian Airport Seized By Angry Protestors

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In a forceful move against the socialist centrist policies of Bolivia’s president, Evo Morales, residents of Santa Cruz province, the country’s wealthiest, heeded the call of their Governor, Rubén Costas and last night seized control of Viru Viru airport, Bolivia’s busiest.

Landlocked Bolivia, South America’s poorest country, has the region’s largest (per capita) indigenous population. Variously estimated as between 56% and 70% of the country’s citizens, Bolivian indigenous people elected one of their own, Morales, who is an Aymara, in 2006.

Morales, a protégé of Venezuela’s Hugo Chávez, took control of all of Bolivia’s airports upon taking office in early 2007. Along with control, Morales’ central government also appropriated all landing fees, a substantial revenue stream, especially in the case of busy Viru Viru. Normally, local governments retain such revenues and control of the airport itself. In thirty years of dealing with airport authorities all over this hemisphere, I never encountered a situation where control of an airport (and especially landing fees) was vested in the nation’s central government.

This is not the first time residents of Santa Cruz province have resisted the socialism of the Morales government. Governor Costas has declared often and loudly that control of Santa Cruz will not be ceded to the Morales administration. The governor has the backing of a solid majority of Santa Cruz’s citizens, and in this instance the citizens have demonstrated they are prepared to act to defend their interests. According to Reuters, local authorities initiated the crisis by demanding that arriving flights pay landing fees, in cash, to them. In response, the Morales government sent in approximately 220 troops to retake control of the airport on Thursday, whereupon Governor Costas issued his call for action by the citizens. As the International Herald Tribune notes:

“The airport conflict has broad political implications because Santa Cruz, the nation's largest and wealthiest province, has resisted Morales' efforts to nationalize industries and redistribute land and wealth to Bolivia's poor majority.

Santa Cruz leaders want autonomy from La Paz and a bigger share of their state's natural gas revenues, but Morales needs the cash for other, desperately poor parts of the country.”

The airport seizure marks the first real test by a Bolivian opposition group of not only the Morales government, but in the larger sense, of the entire “21st Century Socialism” movement promulgated by Venezuelan dictator, Hugo Chávez.

Morales, who is Chávez’s first protégé, has been faithful to the principles of the Chávez plan, seizing control of Bolivia’s natural gas reserves (among the largest in the world) shortly after taking office in January, 2007.  Unlike his mentor Chavez, who is swimming in oil money, Morales has been unable to realize the potential of Bolivia’ enormous gas deposits due to a lack of adequate infrastructure. Now, with the citizens of Santa Cruz flexing their political muscles, Morales faces not only the obvious challenge to his control of Viru Viru airport, but also the challenge to the future control of gas revenues (and indeed, the entire country) as the majority of Bolivia’s fields lie within Santa Cruz.

Overnight, Bolivia has taken center stage in the struggle between Capitalism and Socialism in Latin America.

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About Clavos

Raised in Mexico by American parents, Clavos is proudly bi-cultural, and considers both Spanish and English as his native languages. A lifelong boating enthusiast, Clavos lives aboard his ancient trawler, Second Act, in Coconut Grove, Florida and enjoys cruising the Bahamas and Florida Keys from that base. When not dealing with the never-ending maintenance issues inherent in ancient trawlers, Clavos sells yachts to finance his boat habit, but his real love (after boating, of course) is writing and editing; a craft he has practiced at Blogcritics since 2006.
  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    This is exactly the kind of situation for which Chavez has been building up his military. If Morales can’t exert control I imagine we’ll see Chavez backing him up with troops pretty quickly.

    This also brings to light one of the fundamental problems of socialism. Socialism cannot function in even the short term if it does not take away the assets of the productive class in the society and use that wealth to strengthen the state. Very little of the wealth will be used to benefit the poor, and the country will cease to produce wealth as it did under capitalism, but the assets seized will be used to perpetuate the government until they run out.

    Sociaism is largely about plunder and exploitation.

    Dave

  • Clavos

    “This is exactly the kind of situation for which Chavez has been building up his military.”

    No question.

    I have no doubt that Chávez’s long term goals are centered on plans for hegemony over as much of the hemisphere as he can manage.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    When he’s done driving his own country into the dirt he’ll have to look somewhere else for revenue and resources to keep his movement alive.

    Dave

  • REMF

    “When he’s done driving his own country into the dirt he’ll have to look somewhere else for revenue and resources to keep his movement alive.”

    But where else will GW look?

  • moonraven

    Neither clavos nor Nalle has ever been to Bolivia and neither knows ANYTHING about its government or its leader, Evo Morales.

    Evo, whom I HAVE met and talked with extensively–although 4 years ago so before he was elected president–is not pushover.

    The US has been running a risky CIA operation out of the US Embassy in Bolivia, and the ambassador was declared persona non grata about 10 days ago.

    The folks in Santa Cruz are nothing but Bolivian versions of Venezuela’s oligarchy, los escualidos. They have been trying a separtist movement that would allow them to control the bulk of the resources and leave the majority indigenous population in the highlands literally high and dry.

    They will not succeed.

    Cheerleaders like clavos and calvo/nalle should get on a plane and get down there while there is a tiny window of opportunity. Then maybe they will see Latin American politics in situ–instead of through clavos’ gusano buddies in Miami.

  • brian

    ‘In a forceful move against the socialist centrist policies of Bolivia’s president, Evo Morales, residents of Santa Cruz province, the country’s wealthiest, heeded the call of their Governor, Rubén Costas and last night seized control of Viru Viru airport, Bolivia’s busiest.’

    this is where Morales needs to show he is no pushver…its laughable to see the ‘wealthiest’ using street demo tactics! When they were in control, they just sent in the army and killed the demonstrators.
    They are not resisting ‘socialism’ they are fighting to ensure they hoy poloi dont get any more of the power and wealth they believe belongs to them.
    =================
    Dave: ‘When he’s done driving his own country into the dirt he’ll have to look somewhere else for revenue and resources to keep his movement alive.’

    Dave shows his continued and antidemocratic hatred of the people..esp if they are dark skinned. Morales has not drioven his country into the ground..thats what the ‘wealthiest’ were doing when they were in power…and thats why they are no longer in power…

  • Lapdog

    “Santa Cruz leaders want autonomy from La Paz and a bigger share of their state’s natural gas revenues, but Morales needs the cash for other, desperately poor parts of the country.”

    Cash for the desperatley poor!!! This is unheard of! It’s beyond reason! Has the world gone mad?
    I…I… can’t seem to catch my breath….fetch the smelling salts…do hurry.

  • Doug Hunter

    Oh Brian, the old racism mantra really added to your verbal splooge. That’s all the left has, everything is racism, it’s the only thing keeping the lie alive. I’m starting to believe that reality must be racist.

    Anyway, I know you’re an emotionally driven empathetic person, that’s why you take the political positions you do. I’d like to let you in on a little secret, the right cares about people too. We just don’t let emotions get in the way of what works and what works is capitalism.

    You’re right about the wealthy, they live extravagant lives, they waste lots, and they hate the sweaty stinky masses. What does this mean though? They’re blowing money on yachts and private planes and mansions, but…. You need people to build these yachts, experts in fact. You need pilots and paving equipment and aircraft importers to provide them their private planes. You might need a crane to erect the phallic symbol in front of their mansion and a professional artist to paint a mural on it’s walls. Even their security guards need cool suits and sunglasses.

    A whole class of people technically skilled and professionally competent is needed to fulfill their shallow whims. We call this the middle class and they get paid enough that they can clean the stink off themselves so the rich don’t have to puke while they’re being served. Envy and jealousy drive this group to want to be the rich and they work hard towards this goal producing hordes of wealth along the way chasing what is mostly a fantasy. Everyone benefits from this massive dose of skilled productivity from the wannabes and the capitalist system prospers… driven by greed, envy, and snobbery.

    Then there’s your worldview. Let’s forget reality for a moment, that capitalist countries have wealth, power, and plenty beyond the wildest imaginations of people from only a century ago. Let’s forget that marxism has resulted in mass starvation, the greatest genocides in human history, the abject poverty of masses of people in countries of natural bounty, and the ever present leftist dictators spewing nonsense and erecting larger and larger self portraits on every corner . Let’s forget all the empirical data and go on a thought exercise instead. (if you can’t think or understand historical facts I feel for you, but it would help me understand your position) What would taking that wealth away from the elites and handing it to the stupid lead to? No need for cranes, or pavers, or yachtbuilders. No money for painters (except dictator portraits) or pilots or fancy schmancy caviar importers. All you need is a mule loaded down with corn sent to the corners of the world with a note saying ‘thanks for voting’ and a picture of the dictator. Your corn and your wealth will soon be turned to a pile of shit by the unwashed masses.

    Life was created by the repeated selective application of death, ugly but effective. Wealth is the same way. Nature provides us with the raw materials to create wealth, how we choose to spend it is up to us. It’s yachts and mansions or piles of shit, you decide.

  • moonraven

    The above two posts by Doug are the single biggest load of self-aggrandizing horseshit yet posted on this horseshit-driven site.

    You, Doug, are in no position to condescned to anyone.

    You are, in fact, ignorant working class all the way.

    Stop dreaming.

    The biggest single genocide in recorded history was the genocide of 90 MILLION Native Peoples in this hemisphere. Those victims were relatives of Evo MOrales and they were MY relatives.

    Try learning some history before you shit all over it.

  • Tuca

    You have met him many times-then why don’t you go back there and help in with the “revolution”? Oh by the way, Communists(socialists) have killed about 100,000,000 people the past 100 years or so to “free the oppressed”. In Grenada the Cubans murdered far more people than were killed in “Black October”. They just took them out in the countryside and killed them. Socialists are pathological liars. They need to lie because what they preach does not work in the real world.

    The true story is that Hugo Chavez paid the Bolivian Army millions to back Evo Morales and keep quiet the fact that there are many flights coming into Viru Viru with arms and troops from Venezuela-no paper trail needed. At the incident at the airport there were soldiers with Venezuelan flags on their shoulders. What were they doing there? There are also Venezuelans in plain clothes with military haircuts coming in as tourists. This is not a civil war-it is a Communist(socialist)offensive backed by Hugo Chavez to take over Bolivia with Evo as his puppet. His “presidential” campaign was backed heavily by Chavez money.

    “Dave shows his continued and antidemocratic hatred of the people”???????

    What kind of democracy has a president who wants the governing body or parliament to declare him “president for life”?

    I am not from Miami-I am from Bolivia-native born. My uncle started the Trotzky Party in Bolivia and my mother and sister were Communists. I grew up with a picture of Lenin in my living room.

    Communism(socialism) is the biggest lie perpetrated on the civilized world. It nevers works and costs millions of lives to figure that out every time a Communist comes to power. There was no oligarchy in the Soviet Union? None in in Cuba or China? You better take a good whiff of what you are shoveling because it doesn’t smell like roses to me.

    Rule of thumb-never believe anything a Marxist-Communist or Socialist tells you. In Communist(socialist) countries everyone is the same-miserable. The people in power have their perks just like in a capitalist nation. But the best thing is that when they have to do their dirty work to stay in power, God is not there to show them restraint.

  • Clavos

    “The biggest single [myth about] genocide in recorded history was the [one about the] genocide of 90 MILLION Native Peoples in this hemisphere.”

    There. Fixed it for ya, mr.

  • Doug Hunter

    1) There weren’t anywhere near 90 million native Americans here when it was discovered.

    2) Some of that smaller number survived and assimilated. Me and you are both proof.

    3) Smallpox does not equal genocide or maybe to you it does. If so, perhaps you can throw modern deaths due to alcohol and transfats in there. Hell, the number’s still climbing.

    I understand the need to come up with something to counter the well established and proven 20th century genocides (Stalin, Mao, etc.) that have resulted from the left’s strong propensity for dictator worship, but bringing up deaths by plague from tribal people 500 years ago is pretty weak.

    Try sticking to the old racist/bigot cliche next time, leave the facts and logic to those more well suited.

  • moonraven

    Clavos, the racist redneck now joins the Turks in the refusal to admit to genocide.

    He is the one who is fixed–but in his case the correct term is, of course, CASTRATED.

    There must have been a reason–too many catfights in the neighborhood, I assume.

    Now we have an ersatz Bolivian on the site!

    Caloo, calay–wonder who invented this one? I sure don’t: HIs “I am not from Miami” is a dead giveaway.

    Chavez President for life? Another lie. There is nothing about being declared president for life in the Venezuelan constitutional reform.

    There is the provision of continued re-election. And there will be a referendum about that on Dec. 2nd.

    Why, Nalle, do you not raise an issue about the SEVENTEEN European countries whose constitutions allow for indefinite numbers of re-elections of the president. You could start with France and Germany. Tell them they are commie pinko fascist dictators and see how much they care.

  • Doug Hunter

    First words.

    ‘Clavos, the racist redneck’

    I knew you could do it!!!

  • moonraven

    Right, Doug–what comic strip are you a character in?

    When this hemisphere was “discovered”? Are you fucking nuts? How can you discover a hemisphere when people have been living there for 40,000 years?

    Where do they get you creeps, anyway?

    You can’t all be living on clavos’ boat and nalle’s trailer–so you must just come from their computers.

    Why do I get the feeling that there are only 5 real people posting on this site….

  • moonraven

    This planet spins on two elements: Money and Racism.

    Period.

    Anything else is just windowdressing.

  • Tuca

    Moonraven-you sound like someone who is full of hate-you are not looking for democracy-you are looking to get even and no money or power or how many white people you kill, or throw in jail or beat, or property you confiscate are going to get you even-it must be very difficult to live with such hate inside you. 90,000,000 indigenous people lost? Another Marxist lie-you sound worse than the sports betting guys who hawk their 1-800 lines on the radio. Same tired old blah-blah. Go buy yourself a new car-you’ll feel better. Or how about a plane to ticket to the “workers paradise”?

  • Tuca

    Put me in the money column and moonraven in the racist column.

  • Tuca

    Actually Mr. History, there were recently found bones in the Midwest of Caucasian people that are older than the “Native American” tribes-so maybe your people wiped out our people out first.

    By the way you were the one who used the word Miami-I was born in Sucre-my father was the mayor and my mother was the Minister of Education-like I said she was a Marxist through and through.

  • Clavos

    ¡Bienvenido(a) a Blogcritics, Tuca!

    You’ve already had your baptism of fire with mr; most of the people on the site are much more polite and reasonable than she.

    ¡Espero que te veremos muy seguido!

  • moonraven

    Tuca is less of a Bolivian than I am.

    He is a white male invention of the Miami resident on this board.

    The clone posted in #11: I am not from Miami….

    Yet he says he never mentioned Miami–that I did that.

    Right.

    He tells us he is Bolvian through and through, yet white.

    Right.

    And his folks were Marxist oligarchs? No such folks ever existed in Bolivia.

    Nor anywhere else in Latin America.

    He suggests I should leave my home in Mexico to go to “his” country–and do, precisely WHAT?

    He and clavos tell us that the genocide against Native peoples never happened in this hemisphere. That it was a marxist lie.

    When did Marx talk about genocide of Native Americans? Which chapter of El capital addressed that topic?

    Clavos has finally reached the meltdown point on this site: the only thing that is unclear is, is he the guy in the Margaret Hamilton witch costume of which only the purloined ruby slippers are left–a bit early for Halloween–or is he Monsieur Valdemar, who crumbled into detestable putrescence in the Edgar Allen Poe story, The Facts in the Case of….?

    Pull the other one.

    I am not going to contribute one more word to the clavos/calvo fraud here on BC.

    It’s over.

  • moonraven

    “Espero que” takes a subjunctive verb form in Spanish.

    Just the lesson for the day.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Welcome to the list Tuca. I forgot a lot of my Spanish trying to learn Hebrew.

    I dunno guys,

    This whole thing sounds like a fight between the Colorados and the Blancos – I forget which one of them is loaded with whose money. My gut take is that what is going on in Bolivia is a proxy war between American money and Venezuelan money. But since I don’t know enough to comment intelligently on either side of the relevant issues in Bolivia, I won’t.

    I will note that Doug Hunter’s comment #8 is a perfect apotheosis of a world based on exploitation, what we call in Hebrew “ha’olám hashéker”, the world of lies.

    In his world, you are damned if you do and damned if you don’t. It don’t make no difference. There is vicious exploitation all around, and the way he draws it, the only difference is who manages to escape the brunt of a short, brutish life of poverty and broken dreams.

    Absent any religious belief of my own, I’d say he has got the world pegged perfectly. Taking my own beliefs into account, I’d simply say he has the world pegged as it is now.

    As for the woman who comments under the screen name, Moonraven, it should be borne in mind that she is embittered by the genocide of her own people at the hands of the whites who arrived in the Americas from the 1500’s on. What is relevant here is not that 90 million people died or nine million people died, but that it was a genocide of murder and disease spread that destroyed her civilization. That is the bottom line here, and it is knowledge enough to embitter anyone who has sufficient education in their own traditions to have to live with it.

    The most interesting thing to emerge from the comments here, from my own point of view, has nothing to with Bolivia or politics at all.

    Tuca, you wrote,

    “Actually Mr. History, there were recently found bones in the Midwest of Caucasian people that are older than the “Native American” tribes-so maybe your people wiped out our people out first.”

    Among the Mayan ruins are found carvings of Indians abusing what are clearly white people with beards. Indians tend not to have beards. These carvings are pretty old, at least 3,000 years, and indicated some kind of contact existed between Europeans and Native Americans long before the 1500’s.

    Tuca, an article about the finds you mention would be welcome here, at least by this reader…..

  • Lapdog

    Mmmmmmm, Doug honey, I just read #8 and it made my nether regions go all tingly. You sound like a real man of the world. Give me some more of that trickle-down theory you bad boy, it gets me so hot.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Tuca, try to overlook the insults of the socialist shills. Some of us appreciate your honesty and your experience.

    Isn’t it interesting that those of us like Tuca and myself who have first hand experience of socialism and communism in their rawest form are the ones who are most opposed to them? That ought to tell those whose minds are open something very signficant.

    BTW, the discoveries to which Tuca refers go back some years. Apparently there were nomads who came to America in the early phase of the last ice age in the ‘old’ stoneage. They’re currently being called Paleoamericans. They were wiped out (genocide) by the mesoamericans who are the ancestors of our current ‘native’ americans, who of course are no more native than anyone else is, having originated in the old world just as much as the European colonists.

    Dave

  • Lapdog

    Take everything Nalle says with heaps of salt.

    Paleoamericans were bloodthirsty savages who preyed upon the peaceful inhabitants of Turtle Island until they were defeated in numerous battles. Some where eventually civilized and became useful members of society.

    They may have been ‘native’ to China which means they came from somewhere other than China. Technically they’re referred to as ‘Them Guys’ but they have a habit of calling themselves Chinese.

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    Evo Morales is a joke. Seriously.

    He wears funny shirts and pisses off his neighbors (like Brazil, which is quasi-socialist) with his idiotic economic policies that nationalize everything. He’s backed and funded by Hugo Chavez Frias, so he’s little more than a commie puppet of a foreign nation. A large portion of his constituents hate him. He used to have a website (since deleted) that denounced “gringos” (that would be White people from the United States) for not understanding the “spiritual essence” of the coca plant, like the “indigenous peoples” of his country do.

    Or, put another way, he’s a racist, pro-drug communist who hates America. So, naturally, he’s an ally of Hugo Chavez Frias.

    Of course moonraven likes him. Was there ever any doubt? ;-)

  • moonraven

    Moonraven is the only poster on this site who KNOWS Evo Morales.

    The rest of you are just blowing out your ass.

    Especially the phoney folks born in Mexico and Bolivia–who cannot even write Spanish.

    Ringers galore here on BC.

    The beat goes on–of buttinsky rednecks who can’t even clean the toilet but want to tell other countries and other cultures how to do the deal.

    Fatuousity and stupidity–the twin poles of INternet exchange.

  • Cindy D

    “After the Spaniards defeated the Incas in the 16th century, Bolivia’s predominantly Indian population was reduced to slavery. The remoteness of the Andes helped protect the Bolivian Indians from the European diseases that decimated other South American Indians. But the existence of a large indigenous group forced to live under the thumb of their colonizers created a stratified society of haves and have-nots that continues to this day. Income inequality between the largely impoverished Indians who make up two-thirds of the country and the light-skinned, European elite remains vast.”

    Morales has the legitimate backing of his people–not hard to understand considering history. It’s simply not convenient to some ways of thinking that the majority would want something other than capitalism.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    I find Morales much more genuine and appealing than I find Chavez. I think Morales really does have the best intentions, and in interviews he seems quite genuine. The problem is that he has an inherently much poorer and more underdeveloped country than Chavez, and as Tuca pointed out, it looks like he’s turning into a Chavez puppet, which ultimately won’t be good for the region or for Bolivia.

    dave

  • Zedd

    Clavos,

    While I understand that this is simply a news report, I would like to find out what your perspective is on Morales and his goals to Nationalize this country.

    It would seem that you are conflicted and are not jumping to your typical Capitalism is good always stance, in this situation.

    VIVA Springboks!!!
    Boks rule the world!!!!!

  • moonraven

    Nalle [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor] is pathologically searching for puppets under every presidential chair in Latin America.

    A country’s executive doesn’t have to be a puppet to be affiliated with an ideology or another leader.

    There are, for example, two rightwing presidents in Latin America who are affiliated with the Bush Gang: Uribe in Colombia and Calderon in Mexico.

    One of Calderon’s priorities has been re-establishing a good relationship with Venezuela, as Chavez withdrew his ambassador to Mexico a couple of years back (Fox the longest tongue in the world retaliated by withdrawing his) and said Mexico could cool its heels until it elected a government that knew how to behave itself in the international sector.

    That priority has been partially met, as Venezuela sent a new ambassador–former Foreign Minister Ray Chaderton–a couple of weeks ago and accepted a new one from Mexico.

    Colombia’s president Uribe made a formal request 10 days ago to join Bank of the South–which Chavez organized and which other left-leaning countries have jumped on the bandwagon of and which will officially start operations NOv. 3rd.

    Uribe also asked Chavez to mediate the hostage and prisoner exchange with the FARC.

    What does this mean?

    In simple terms, it means that Chavez has consolidated a critical mass of power in Latin America (and the planet), and that folks who have been affiliated with the Washington Consensus are hedging their bets, trying to make sure that their bread is going to have butter on it.

    That Chavez has given more help and more money to Latin America than the US obviously has something to do with the shift.

    But to say that presidents of Latin American countries are not capable of thinking and deciding independently smacks of colonialism and racism at its most rancid.

    Not to mention that it is condescending as hell.

    Bush is a puppet of Dick Cheney.

    Evo Morales in not a puppet of Chavez. Evo has a long history of playing hardball in the union movement. He won the presidential election the second time he ran.

    If you comic strip “historians” knew anything about Latin America–past OR present, you would not be quite so quick to make fools out of yourself posting drivel on this site.

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

  • STM

    “I didn’t make those guys ugly and bald and fat and charmless.”

    That’s absolutely wrong, MR. Only one of ‘em’s charmless :)

  • STM

    Zedd writes: “VIVA Springboks!!!
    Boks rule the world!!!!!”

    Hmm. I never thought I’d be celebrating the Boks winning anything.

    But when it came down to a choice between the Japies and the Poms, I just couldn’t for the life of me go for England and have them join Australia as the only team to win the rugby world cup twice and then have to put up with another four years of pom gloating. The Boks I can live with – they deserved it, and they only gloat for six months.

    So there I was, cheering on the other arch-enemy over the main arch-enemy.

    Just this once, and in scenes unlikely to be repeated … I say, good on you, South Africa.

    But it was telling that neither team was able to score a try in the final and the whole thing was decided on kicks. If you were watching the game for the first time, it would have been a poor advertisement for “the running game”.

    I blame the Poms for that, of course.

  • alessandro

    Well, at least Moonraven is explaining some of her, his (its? whatever) positions behind all the nonsensical swearing and insidious inflammatory insults.

    I’m serious. Au moins cette fois ci on recoit quelque idees aulieu de la merde. I don’t have a French keyboard so no accents/accents circonflex here. Apologies to the French.

    Tuca, maybe you’re Bolivian and maybe you’re not. Maybe you’re a white dude from Miami and a huge Dolphins fan (though at 0-7 that’s tough I suppose.) Or maybe you’re on the Haliburton payroll. Who knows? But I liked your post in #10.

    Dave, I live in Quebec. A socialist sometimes quasi-communist state built on a series of nationalist pyramid schemes and corrupt kickbacks – because socialists steal and keep the money. I live under and seen first hand too (though nowhere near the murderous communists) the over rated “ism” of our times that is “socialism.”

    Hey, it seems to work in Scandinavia…go figure.

    It’s funny. Many of our politicians have Marxist-Leninist backgrounds or leanings yet many of them own businesses or collect rent from the proletariat.

    In theory it’s all compassionate niceties, in reality it’s just another way of consolidating power into the hands of a few and sweeping problems under the rug. And lord knows dealing with bureaucrats who haven’t a clue how business workd is worthy of a film.

    It’s all fun and games until someone loses an eye.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    What this situation boils down to, it seems to me, is that the inhabitants of Santa Cruz have decided they would rather not be part of Bolivia because they don’t like the policies of the country’s legitimately elected government.

    Whatever your outsider’s opinion of Morales is, I don’t think this is the kind of attitude to be encouraged.

  • alessandro

    The problem with Latin America – and this is where we can sympathize why socialism resonates there – is that right-wing capitalists and military never considered the well-being of the populace. It went from, for example, Battista to Castro in Cuba. Nice split, eh?

    So when the chance came, it was easy to choose socialism in place like Chile where it seems to thrive. I could be wrong of course.

    Moonraven, you speak of “genocide” by the Americans to explain the unfortunate fate of Native Americans but is not a fact of history that the Portuguese and Spanish legacy have been far more destructive in South America?

  • Clavos

    Alessandro;

    You don’t need the keyboard; if you have MSWord, the necessary aigu, circonflex, etc. are on the installation disc and can be uploaded from it;

    Voilá: § ù ¨^ à ç è é etc.

  • moonraven

    Doc,

    In English it is called sedition. And it is a criminal offense.

    The US is channeling a lot of money through the embassy there to the seditious separatist groups in Santa Cruz. They are going after Morales because Chavez is just too tough for them to handle.

    Meddling in other’s houses, as usual, while their own resembles the Augean stables, with no Hercules in sight to clean the place out.

    Aside to alessandro: You will get no sympathy from me. As a member of the Mohawk Nation,
    with half of my family being from Quebec, I consider your ilk to be interlopers. Period.

  • Zedd

    Stan, Doc,

    I can only put it like this…

    We are the champions – my friends
    And we kept on fighting – till the end –
    We are the champions –
    We are the champions
    No time for losers
    ‘Cause we are the champions (pause for affect… shhhhhh, now) – OF THE WORLD!!!

    And the crowd roars!!

    he he he he

    Boks RULE!!

  • moonraven

    Now the pinche canadian wants to minimize genocide by splitting hairs over the number.

    The Zionists in Israel have screamed their heads off because 6 million of their folks went up in smoke. And collective guilt and self-interest on the part of the US and Europe has allowed those people to wreak mayhem and murder all over the Middle East.

    The Armenian holocaust was 1.5 million. The TUrks refuse to copo to it and the US Congress tries to pass a condemnation of them.

    Yet 90 million Native Amercans murdered is what–chopped liver?

    Are you fucking nuts?

  • Zedd

    Is that how to spell aigu? I’ve always wondered. Its an awkward sounding word. Its almost embarrassing to say. Its like a distasteful bodily function has just occured or Like something that Mr. Tudball on the “Carol Burnett Show” would say.

  • Zedd

    MR

    I thought that the resolution was ridiculous too. Especially since we are over in Iraq RIGHT NOW for no good reason other than we cant tell those darn Arabs apart, causing the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of people.

    What an insult to the Native Americans more-so and the African Americans. As we all sing about purple mountains and their majesty and the fruited plains where we murdered them by the millions. As 20 million Africans lay dead in the ocean from the middle passage, we dare condemn Turkey. That is just beyond nervy! Simply no idea that such a resolution is COMPLETELY inappropriate for THIS nation of all nations to make. We wiped out an entire continent for goodness sake!

  • moonraven

    Not for goodness sake, Zedd.

    What they did was absolutely evil.

    And they are still doing it.

  • STM

    Zedd: “Boks RULE!!”

    Yes, Zedd, it’s good to see South Africa join Australia as the only countries to have won the world cup twice.

    Australia have played in more finals though, and beat South Africa by a couple of points (a Steve Larkham field goal the decider) in the 1999 extra-time semi-final epic where they went on to beat France in the final :)

    With England having knocked us out in the quarters this time, I just couldn’t have lived had England won it again. So thanks, you Bokke.

  • Clavos

    “What this situation boils down to, it seems to me, is that the inhabitants of Santa Cruz have decided they would rather not be part of Bolivia because they don’t like the policies of the country’s legitimately elected government.”

    Some of that may well underlie the present incident, Doc, but it goes beyond the scope of the article.

    Insofar as the seizure of the airport by the citizens of the province is concerned, their protest of the usurpation of control and revenues of the airport by the central government is a legitimate grievance, since control of airports (and receipt of revenues therefrom) is normally a local responsibility and prerogative (Miami’s is not controlled by the Feds, Heathrow is operated by BAA, not the DfT, etc.)

    Governor Costas and his constituents’ immediate concern is, of course, control of the airport and its revenue stream, but their larger objection is to what they contend is the unlawful seizure of much of their property and local income by the central government.

    I’m trying to shed some light on that (as I tried to in my previous article about Bolivia), in the hope that the world will better note (and heed) what is going on.

  • moonraven

    Utter bullshit.

    The government of Bolivia does not have to base their regulation of revenue laws on what is done in other countries.

    The governor of the province is an active seditionist and should be slapped in jail.

    His operating money from the US government–US TAXPAYERS’ money–should be cut off.

    And meddling ignorant gringos should find something better to do with their time than writing semiliterate articles about things they know nothing, and care less, about.

    Look at the oppressive US government.

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    control of airports (and receipt of revenues therefrom) is normally a local responsibility and prerogative (Miami’s is not controlled by the Feds, Heathrow is operated by BAA, not the DfT, etc.)

    That may be the American model (most airports are operated by the city government in whose jurisdiction they’re located), but not necessarily the general one (although having worked in the air industry, I guess you’d know). BAA is a privatized former arm of the Department of Transport. It’s independent from central government in name only.

    This seems to be a bit more than a civil protest – as MR notes, it bears a lot of the hallmarks of an insurrection. But unless Morales did something illegal or unconstitutional in putting the airport under central government control, there’s no justification for that kind of thing just because some better-off Bolivians don’t want to share the cake with their fellow citizens.

  • Clavos

    Doc,

    You are correct about BAA, of course. Its distance from the central government is not great, but nonetheless the revenues are at least shared (if not their entirety) with the city of London, while Luton gets revenue from TBI for that facility, and Emcor turns over Gatwick revenue to local authorities as well.

    One of my responsibilities while working in the industry was negotiation of landing rights in various countries, so yes, I do have some idea of how it works, which is part of the reason I chose to write about this particular dispute.

    All of the foregoing is merely illustrative of how most airports worldwide are operated, including those in Bolivia prior to Morales’ accession to power (there are, of course, exceptions, especially in totalitarian societies).

    I think the citizens of Santa Cruz have a legitimate beef.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    In English it is called sedition. And it is a criminal offense.

    In a free society it’s not a criminal offense. Freedom should include the right to criticize the government.

    That you think sedition should be a crime says volumes about you and the culture you’re part of and the values you hold.

    You’re a statist, plain and simple, with socialism as your preferred mechanism of oppression.

    Dave

  • Zedd

    Stan,

    Yeah, to bad for the WANNABIES.

    With a team called the Blacks, I would have had to go for them :o) if there was a contest between the two of you…. But there wasn’t.

    Boks Rule!!

  • troll

    “If two or more persons in any state or territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down or to destroy by force the government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder or delay the execution of any law of the United States or by force to seize, take or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both.”

  • Silver Surfer

    Zedd, do you think the TMO was correct when he ruled the ball was in touch when Cueto went over after Tait’s breakout, and should the ref have given the penalty for South Africa cynically slowing down the ball at the breakdown.

    Tait was hauled down on the line, but on the next phase Cueto took the ball at first receiver and dived over.

    He could just as easily have ruled a penalty try in that case, and yellow carded one of the South African defenders, which would have changed the nature of the game completely.

    What’s that you say? What the f.ck am I talking about? No? Didn’t think so.

    Tee hee

  • moonraven

    Nalle:

    Wrong again.

    My reference to sedition being a criminal offense was to HERE IN THE US of Assholes. [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

  • moonraven

    For those folks here NOT trying to pass themselves off as historians when their idea of hsitory is reading an old newpaper from the 1950s with Terry and the Pirates in it, please be advised that SEDITION came into the US legal lexicon big time with John Adams, was officially disappeared under Jefferson–and came back again with–guess what: THE PATRIOT ACTS.

    If you tried to overthrow the US government the way the US-backed oligarchs in Bolivia are trying to overthrow Evo Morales, this is what would happen to you:

    YOU WOULD BE DECLARED AN ENEMY COMBATANT, SHIPPED TO GUATANAMO AND HELD WITHOUT HEABEAS CORPUS INDEFINITELY.

    JUST THE FACTS, FREEDOM-LOVIN’ REDNECKS.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    MR, you seem not to understand the difference between sedition, which is criticizing the government and conspiracy to overthrow the government, which has been illegal since the Constitution was ratified.

    Show me what part of the PATRIOT Act specifically criminalizes sedition. I’m no fan of the act, but will still admit that it doesn’t go that far.

    Dave

  • moonraven

    Nale: conspiracy to overthrow the government–which is what is happening in Bolivia and which is the same shit the US tried and keeps trying to do in Venezuela is PART of sedition.

    I don’t have to show you shit. You are the ersatz historian: YOU look it up.

  • moonraven

    Clue to the clueless: Start with the Alien and Sedition Act of John Adams and compare it to the current Patriot Acts.

    After that, just keep your mouth shut for awhile.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    I don”t know why, but I actually went and looked sedition up, and of course, MR is wrong as usual. As a legal definition there is a strict dividing line between seditious speech as addressed in the Sedition Act and the kind of active anti-government conspiracy addressed in the PATRIOT Act. The key dividing line is between disruptive or inflammatory speech and direct anti-government action, which would be considered treason.

    Dave

  • moonraven

    Nalle, is there a point you are trying to make?

    Nobody is talking about legal definitions, but about BEHAVIOR.

    Legal definitions are only applied when someone is CHARGED–and those vary depending on the convenience of the chargER and the set of laws involved (which will differ from country to country).

    The behavior in question in Bolivia is the SAME: You can call it treasoon, conspiracy to overthrow the government, treason, instigating magnicide–it’s the same behavior no matter what you call it.

    And, as my original point indicated–which Nalle tried by his labyrinthine anality to deflect–is that it is CRIMINAL BEHAVIOR and should be treated as such.

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

  • troll

    the law that I quoted is US CODE: Title 18,2384. Seditious Conspiracy enacted in the Civil War

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    The arguments over sedition are very interesting and all, but I’m just curious. What has transpired in Bolivia since Clavos penned this article?

  • Lapdog

    The last I heard some of the mob that took over the airport were demanding large amounts of cash from international airlines. Some companies complied and some left without picking up passengers.

  • Clavos

    Good question, Ruvy.

    Although i’ve been monitoring international news sources closely since writing the article, there has been nothing for two days now.

    The last report I saw was datelined 10/20.

  • Clavos

    Ruvy,

    Here’s a BBC report dated 10/21, but it doesn’t add anything new, just re-hashes the same old info.

    Strange there’s nothing new in nearly 48 hours….

  • Clavos

    Ruvy,

    Correction. The BBC report showed a date of 10/21 on the cover screen, but i see the actual report is dated 10/19. No wonder it read like a re-hash….

  • STM

    Mate, the local residents taking over the airport. That’s one of the most bizarre stories I’ve ever seen. We really are worlds away.

    I’m going to get a few mates and take over the local pub (which would be about the only thing you could get anyone motivated enough to take over down here). I want some of the money people are spending in there. All the alcohol tax profits are currently going to the state and federal governments. If I’m going to put up with people walking past my place at 2am singing out of tune and speaking Swahili at the top of their lungs, I want some compo.

    Plus, if no bastard comes in, we can drink all the beer ourselves. You can’t do that with a plane.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    I could see this kind of thing happening in the US the way it did in the 60s, especially if local governments go overboard with things like eminent domain seizures. Hell, there are people in Austin who just need a little push to form a human chain to block toll road construction. It might be time for some of the people to shake off their conditioned obedience to the government.

    Dave

  • STM

    Actually Dave, blocking toll road construction would be a good thing to do here, and you wouldn’t have any problem getting volunteers.

    Everytime they build a new bit of freeway here, we have to pay for it through tolls. On a single road I use to get to work, I now have to pay at three different locations (the freeway, the Lane Cove tunnel and the harbour bridge/or harbour tunnel). This is one piece of continuous road, mind you.

    If I drop my son home after work, once over the bridge (no toll going north) I have to pay $1.60 to use a 50m off/on ramp (that’s right, 50m – if that) that is considered by the NSW Roads and Traffic Authority to be a part of the aforementioned Lane Cove Tunnel – the two things being separated by a stretch of freeway that is actually free depending on where you enter and exit, and has been there since the 1970s.

    What a joke. Why do I pay my bloody taxes? And don’t get me started on parking cops, red-light cameras and speed cameras. It’s nothing but revenue raising. Sydney City Council has now started doing “covert” parking operations, ie wearing plainclothes and booking people (read mums in 4WDs) in school zones, etc.

    Since safety is the key issue in school zones, wouldn’t they be better off having a parking ranger in uniform as a deterrent? The answer is yes, they would.

    The problem, though, is it doesn’t raise any money. And in the case of Sydney City Council, and the dozens of other city and suburban councils in the metropolitain area, we are talking revenue raising through parking of hundreds of millions of dollars.

    I even got booked recently having a surf at Bondi Beach. I put in enough coin for two hours, but the surf was really good and I forgot about the time. I was three minutes over and got a ticket. I think they just watch and wait.

    I remember when the federal government was trying to chop down the Tasmanian wilderness to dam the untouched rivers down there and people chained themselves to trees and bulldozers.

    That’s what we need all over the western world. A bit of that 60s-70s wild spirit. What’s happened to us. We just go along like sheep now. In America and Australia, protesters stopped an insane and unpopular war.

    However, that’s probably easier than getting the parking cops off our backs.

  • moonraven

    The reason nothing has happened since the events slapped together in clavos’ “article” is because–

    1) yesterday The Bolivian government accepted the US ambassador’s apology:

    “The Bolivian government accepted Monday apologies from U.S. ambassador to Bolivia for his remarks on Bolivian President Evo Morales.

    “The government accepts the ambassador’s apologies. We will continue working in the two countries’ relations,” Bolivian Foreign Minister David Choquehuanca said, according to news reaching here.

    President Morales told the U.N. General Assembly last month that the U.N. headquarters should be moved elsewhere after members of his delegation had problems entering the United States.

    In response, U.S. ambassador to Bolivia, Philip Goldberg, said he would not be surprised “if Bolivia would also want to change Disney(land’s) headquarters too,” triggering a diplomatic spat between the two countries.

    Goldberg confirmed to the press that he had sent apologies to the Bolivian government through diplomatic channels.

    Choquehuanca described Goldberg’s remarks as “racist” and said the U.S. diplomat would not be a “valid interlocutor” for his government until he apologized.”

    and 2) Chavez has said that he will sit stand around with his arms cross if this US cheerled seditious activity continues.

    I doubt very seriously that the US is prepared to see if he is bluffing or not at this point.

  • moonraven

    Sorry–that he will NOT stand around with his arms crossed.

    Of course the rubes on this site who do not even know where Venezuela and Bolivia are located on the planet will probably try to tell us that THEY know better, and that the governor of Santa Cruz province is not engaging in seditious activity and extorsion via a vis the airline companies–that some big bird that said he was a condor told them that THEY know everything about Latin America despite their never having visited the region and that they should SEGUIR CHINGANDO.

    Right.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    I’m sorry, Marthe. A lot of what you are saying does not appear to have a relationship with the events reported by Clavos.

    I realize that there may have been a foo-fo-raw over stupid remarks made by an American ambassador (something common where the Americans think they can walk all over a country), and also that American money may be backing the seizure of the airport by provincial leaders in Bolivia. That would come as no surprise at all, seeing the shit they pull in my neck of the woods.

    But what you report above appears to have nothing to do with a provincial airport or who controls it.

    Do you have a link that could tie the events you cite to the seizure of the airport? Even one in Spanish. I can still comprehend a fair amount of written Spanish in a newspaper, though Ladino is frankly easier….

  • moonraven

    Sorry–that he will NOT stand around with his arms crossed.

    Of course the rubes on this site who do not even know where Venezuela and Bolivia are located on the planet will probably try to tell us that THEY know better, and that the governor of Santa Cruz province is not engaging in seditious activity and extorsion via a vis the airline companies–that some big bird that said he was a condor told them that THEY know everything about Latin America despite their never having visited the region and that they should SEGUIR CHINGANDO.

    HOWEVER, the seditionists DID create two TERRORIST BOMB ATTACK incidents on Monday AWAY from the airport:

    1) At the Venezuelan Consulate

    2) At the house of one of the volunteer Cuban doctors

    The choise of targets makes it clear that it is the US behind the seditious activity in Santa Cruz (besides the US has given millions to those guys through USAID and the NED). YOUR tax dollars at work sponsoring TERRORISM.

    Foreign Minister Nicolas Madura made a statement reinforcing the position of Venezuela in regard to supporting Bolivia’s government.

    Video for Spanish speakers only here.

  • moonraven

    And from the telesur site

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    That’s what we need all over the western world. A bit of that 60s-70s wild spirit. What’s happened to us. We just go along like sheep now. In America and Australia, protesters stopped an insane and unpopular war.

    Stan, I think it’s that the people who used to protest turned into me and you and had kids and got responsibilities, and when we got old enough to have enough time to protest again, we discovered that the only people still doing it were protesting for causes we found repugnant or were lunatic cranks.

    Dave

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer.php?name=gonzo%20marx gonzo marx

    in other words, they sold out…became the Reaganites and followers of “trickle down” policies

    fair enough…

    but you hear it here first, and from yer gonzo

    last week the first Boomer applied for Social Security

    this silver tsunami is going to cause a sea change in American politics in the coming years as those Boomers eschew the GOP for their cost of living increases, healthcare and cheap college for the grandkids

    Excelsior?

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Thanks for the link, Marthe. But you really do need to learn to make a link live. Maybe Chris Rose can post a brief tutorial on it. Hey, if a dummy like me can do it, anyone can…..

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Ruvy, MR: I think Chris has posted links to suggested HTML ‘how-to’ websites several times. Besides which, I think there is a little tutorial somewhere on the site (mostly for the benefit of the writers, but still – ).

    I suppose it really isn’t that much of a pain to copy and paste the URL into the address box… unless you’re using one of those horrible old trackball mice [mouses?] with enough dust on it to start a simoom.

  • moonraven

    Only the folks on THIS site would complain because I cut and pasted a link to IMPORTANT INFO which clavos and company said was not available on ANY news sites.

    I am NOT following some pinche tutorial to post.

    If you don’t like the FORM in which I post info, go back to being ignorant savages and reading folks like Nalle who never post any documentation for their bullshit.

    Ungrateful gringos. Give you books and you chew the covers.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer.php?name=gonzo%20marx gonzo marx

    the bukkake lover gets her birdie creme rinse once again…

    mr – you miss the point that not only is it polite to properly embed your links, but calling folks “ignorant” when you won’t spend 2 minutes learning how to tag properly clearly demonstrates your own projection issues…among others…

    this has been a public service announcement, had there been a real Emergency you would have been informed of how to place your head between your knees to kiss your ass goodbye…

    Excelsior?

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    On a single road I use to get to work, I now have to pay at three different locations (the freeway, the Lane Cove tunnel and the harbour bridge/or harbour tunnel).

    Stan, would it be cheaper for you to take the train, the bus or the ferry (or a combination) to work? Or is that not feasible because of your odd hours?

    What you describe sounds like just one more reason why friends don’t let friends drive in cities!

    Anyone who’s ever driven in downtown San Francisco (as I did this past weekend) knows what I mean.

  • http://www.buyingone.com Christopher Rose

    I have posted a link to a very clear and simple explanation of how to format a link several times but moonraven has always refused to trouble herself by acquiring the skill. I must confess to being a tad disappointed that someone with so varied a skill set declined to add one more to her portfolio.

    Maybe she is really starting to be afraid of new ideas?

  • Clavos

    For those who don’t speak Spanish, mr’s two links (the ones which had to be coded for her) are NOT about seizure of the airport, which is the subject not only of the article, but also of my responses to Ruvy’s inquiry.

    The two links refer to the incidents at the Venezuelan consulate and the Cuban doctor’s house. Neither even mentions (or links these incidents to) the situation at the airport.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    in other words, they sold out…became the Reaganites and followers of “trickle down” policies

    Actually, I think Reagan came too soon after the 60s for them to become full-on Reaganites. I think they were still holding onto their illusions or at least some of them at that point.

    On the other hand, it’s possible that the disappointments of the Carter era followed by two factors of Reagan’s presidency may ultimately have turned them.

    During the Reagan era, Reagan’s genial personality was very attractive to people who did not agree with him ideologically. It put an acceptable face on conservative policies. Also during that era, the housing crisis of the mid-80s had a very substantial impact on those in the middle class who were getting ready to buy their first houses. It instilled in them a materialism which made Republican policies attractive.

    For me, the turning point was probably 1980 when Jimmy Carter signed the draft registration bill. I missed qualifying for it by one year, but it really pissed me off and showed me how basically illiberal the democrats were. Coming out of a background raised in a family where protesting the Vietnam war was de rigeur, having a democrat president open the door to a future draft was absolutely alienating. Carter’s failed Iran policy also played a big role because of our family background in the diplomatic corps and in Iran. Allowing the Shah to fall and Iran to descend into chaos and theocracy was so utterly dismaying that I could never forgive the Democrats.

    Of course, the things which drove me away from the democrats may be different from other folks because I’ve always been politically aware and active.

    fair enough…

    but you hear it here first, and from yer gonzo

    last week the first Boomer applied for Social Security

    I actually mentioned it last week, but it deserves repeating.

    this silver tsunami is going to cause a sea change in American politics in the coming years as those Boomers eschew the GOP for their cost of living increases, healthcare and cheap college for the grandkids

    I’m one of those boomers and I hope that economic pressures won’t cause me to lose my principles. IMO the AARP is already one of the most destructive lobbies in America and I wouldn’t want to become part of that rapacious me-first mentality.

    Dave

  • Lapdog

    I can’t imagine any sane human being bemoaning the fall of the Shah.

    But for the nutters who enjoyed reading horror reports about his torture chambers it was no doubt disappointing.

  • moonraven

    Just another few quick ones:

    1. Moonraven is a bird in your face. She has priorities for what she learns, and POLITELY linking is WAAAAAAAAAAAY at the bottom of the list. Especially since she is flying with luggage tomorrow and has had last minute visits and packing to do. She is just WAAAAAAAAAY busier than you pajama posters.

    2. If Nalle was out there protesting when I was–which he was NOT-he was no more born in 1965 than my grandfather was. That was the year the major anti-war protests BEGAN–and they lasted for approximately 10 years. Amnesty Day for folks who left the US so as to avoid going to war, was in the spring of 1976.

    I remember it well, as the US Army flew me back to Seattle just in time to give a speech there. Depending on what sign Nalle is, he would have been at most, 11.

    [Gratuitous vulgarity deleted by Comments Editor]

    3. clavos the ersatz journalist was caught with his pants down so he tried to pooh pooh the links to what happened with the dynamite bombs in Santa Cruz by saying that they bore no relationship to what happened to the airport.

    Right.

    The seditious governor’s capers at the airport bear no relationship to the seditious governor’s bombing capers at the Venezuelan consulate and the house of the cubano doctor.

    Logic of clavos: The USA is not the USA.

    Where do they GET you guys?

    Five year olds are both smarter and more truthful.

  • Lumpy

    Seriously moonraven. Waht is wrong with u? Are you this not hateful face to face or do you associate with people in the real world who are somehow forced to put up with your behavior?

    But I shouldn’t complain. Your behaviour so completely discredits your views that u lose every argument as soon as you open your beak.

  • Lapdog

    Lumpy, why do you have a phobia about no-nonsense commentary. You need to get some healthy color in your liver. Try a daily dose of carrot/beet juice.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    I can’t imagine any sane human being bemoaning the fall of the Shah.

    Millions of Iranians do. For all his shortcomings and abuses, the Shah modernized the economy and made education available to a large number of people and the population as a whole benefited enormously from modernization and his generally liberal policies. Now most of those people are either imprisoned in Iran or have fled the country by the hundreds of thousands. The entire intellectual class there has ceased to exist under the new regime.

    As for the Shah’s abuses, the Theocrats killed about the same number of people as the Shah did in his 17 years in power in their first year in power when they purged the intellectual leadership of the country. If the Shah’s transgressions were worse than those of the current government you’d have a point, but since they’re both equally bad and the Shah also did many good things for the country and the people which the current regime has largely reversed, the Shah wins.

    Dave

  • moonraven

    Nalle,

    Apparently you have forgotten that I regularly spend time in Bahrain, which has plenty of Iranians from right next door–and they ALL hate9d) the shah.

    How do you have the nerve to just MACKE UP this drivel that you write?

    I think the one task I might bury the hatchet with the Comments Editor to do in tandem would be not to have you banned, but to have you COMMITTED.

  • Clavos

    “clavos the ersatz journalist was caught with his pants down so he tried to pooh pooh the links to what happened with the dynamite bombs in Santa Cruz by saying that they bore no relationship to what happened to the airport.”

    Now, you see, birdbrain, I didn’t say that; what I said was “The two links refer to the incidents at the Venezuelan consulate and the Cuban doctor’s house. Neither even mentions (or links these incidents to) the situation at the airport.”

    I actually think these incidents were related to the airport seizure, but not in the way you think they were.

    My thoughts about them are more along the lines of the government forces being the perpetrators of those incidents to further stir up sentiment (and international press coverage) against the people of Santa Cruz.

  • moonraven

    Evidence for your wild claims?

    You have never posted even a logical analysis for any of your wild claims. Much less documentation of proof.

    Why would 3 events happening at essentially the same time with the same aim and the same style be done by antagonistic elements? Doesn’t make sense. If it walks like a duck, quacks, etc.

    You are simply trying to blame the victim. As usual. Because that’s the only way your prejudice would have ANY connection with reality. I am not buying it.

    And you should be ashamed for trying to peddle that “theory” on a public forum.

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

  • Lapdog

    The majority of Iranians loathed the Shah.

    The leader they democratically elected in 1951, Dr. Mohammad Mossadegh, was overthrown by the US and Britain and the Shah was installed as their murdering puppet. British and American companies took back control of Iran’s oil production and profits, leaving the majority of the population
    in poverty.

    Responsibility for the horrors that followed lies at the feet of the UK and the US.

  • moonraven

    That’s absolutely right.

    They are the Axis of Evil.

    Anything else is just bullshit.

  • http://www.buyingone.com Christopher Rose

    Whilst not wishing to go so far as to attempt to portray the British, or at least its then governments, as benign, it is certainly going too far to make the statement that the people themselves are malign.

    I’m not entirely sure why this conversation has veered from Bolivia to Iran but with regard to the latter, a little historical context might make the actions of those in power at that time a little more comprehensible. As with many features of our contemporary political scene, the roots lie in events before, during and after the last world war. Hopefully we will never see another one of them.

    From Wikipedia: From the Pahlavi era to the Iranian Revolution (1921 – 1979)

    With the rise of modernization and encroachment of stronger Western powers in the late nineteenth century came the Persian Constitutional Revolution of 1905-1911. Reformers hoped the constitution would strengthen Iran against Imperial Russia and Britain by centralizing and modernizing it. Ultimately the constitution became law, but its provisions were seldom followed during most of its history.

    In 1921, an army officer Reza Khan of Mazandarani and Persian descent (known as Reza Shah after assuming the throne) staged a coup against the weakened Qajar dynasty. An autocrat and supporter of modernization, Reza Shah initiated the development of modern industry, railroads, and establishment of a national education system. Reza Shah sought to balance the influence of Russia and Britain by seeking out assistance and technology from European powers traditionally not involved in Iranian affairs, but when World War II started his closeness to Germany alarmed allied powers Russia and Britain, Germany’s enemies.

    In summer of 1941 Britain and the USSR invaded Iran to prevent Iran from allying with the Axis powers. The Allies occupied Iran, securing a supply line to Russia, Iran’s petroleum infrastructure, and forced the Shah to abdicate in favor of his son, Mohammad Reza Pahlavi.

    In 1951, a nationalist politician, Dr. Mohammed Mossadegh rose to prominence in Iran and was elected Prime Minister. As Prime Minister, Mossadegh became enormously popular in Iran by nationalizing the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company (later British Petroleum, BP) which controlled the country’s oil reserves.

    In response, Britain embargoed Iranian oil and began plotting to depose Mossadegh. Members of the British Intelligence Service invited the United States to join them, convincing U.S. President Eisenhower that Mossadegh was reliant on the Tudeh (Communist) Party to stay in power.

    In 1953, President Eisenhower authorized Operation Ajax, and the CIA took the lead in overthrowing Mossadegh and supporting a U.S.-friendly monarch; and for which the U.S. Government apologized in 2000.

    The CIA faced many setbacks, but the covert operation soon went into full swing, conducted from the U.S. Embassy in Tehran under the leadership of Kermit Roosevelt, Jr.

    Iranians were hired to protest Mossadegh and fight pro-Mossadegh demonstrators. Anti- and pro-monarchy protestors violently clashed in the streets, leaving almost three hundred dead. The operation was successful in triggering a coup, and within days, pro-Shah tanks stormed the capital and bombarded the Prime Minister’s residence. Mossadegh surrendered, and was arrested on 19 August 1953. He was tried for treason, and sentenced to three years in prison.

    Mohammad Reza Pahlavi returned to power greatly strengthened and his rule became increasingly autocratic in the following years. With strong support from the U.S. and U.K., the Shah further modernized Iranian industry, but simultaneously crushed all forms of political opposition with his intelligence agency, SAVAK.

    Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini became an active critic of the Shah’s White Revolution and publicly denounced the government. Khomeini, who was popular in religious circles, was arrested and imprisoned for 18 months.

    After his release in 1964, Khomeini publicly criticized the United States government. The Shah was persuaded to send him into exile by General Hassan Pakravan. Khomeini was sent first to Turkey, then to Iraq and finally to France. While in exile, he continued to denounce the Shah.

    And there we have it; I get the impression that once again, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I wish some of our more extreme political figures would take that on board.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    It’s the law of unintended consequences, Christopher. Or ‘no good deed goes unpunished’. But contrary to what Lapdog and others here are saying, the population of Iran was not hostile to America during the Shah’s reign – quite the opposite. It was a period of intense friendship and cooperation between the two countries and Iran flourished economically and intellectually as it never had before.

    When the Shah was removed from power there was a huge diaspora of Iranians and Iranian Jews from Iran and mostly to the US, including a large portion of their skilled and educated classes. These people overwhelmingly supported the Shah and feared reprisals from the new government, which killed 3000 of them and imprisoned many more almost immediately on taking office.

    Despite our role in putting the Shah in power, the US directed huge amounts of money and resources to the country, largely to the benefit of its people. My father was the director of the Iran America Society, which played a large role in providing education and opportunities to young Iranians which they had never had before. My family lived in Iran during this period, and while there was certainly fear of SAVAK, plenty of people knew that the alternative would not have been any better and could have been much worse.

    Frankly, the US and Britain did everything they could to make sure that Iran prospered under the Shah, which was to our advantage as well, but certainly greatly to the advantage of the people of Iran. Western guilt is as powerful a weapon for good as Western fear is for harm.

    Today I’ve got friends and relatives in the Iranian exile community and the current situation there has affirmed clearly for them that the Shah was the ‘good old days’.

    Dave

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Apparently you have forgotten that I regularly spend time in Bahrain, which has plenty of Iranians from right next door–and they ALL hate9d) the shah.

    Given that they are almost certainly supporters of and beneficiaries of the current regime, that’s not at all surprising. Just like the fattening bureaucrats and socialist overlords of Venezuela love Chavez despite the fact that the people are being increasingly oppressed while they are enriched.

    Dave

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    2. If Nalle was out there protesting when I was–which he was NOT-he was no more born in 1965 than my grandfather was.

    True enough. I was born well before 1965 and my grandfather was born in 1888.

    That was the year the major anti-war protests BEGAN–and they lasted for approximately 10 years. Amnesty Day for folks who left the US so as to avoid going to war, was in the spring of 1976.

    And I was living in DC at the time and had been on numerous marches with my parents between 67 and 1972, as well as attending fundraisers for McCarthy. We didn’t go to any protests in 65 or 66 because we were out of the country.

    Dave

  • http://www.buyingone.com Christopher Rose

    I’d call it the law of interfering in other people’s affairs is always a bad idea myself, Dave. I find your version of the story far too subjective personally.

  • moonraven

    Nalle,

    If the Iranians in Bahrain were so supportive of the current regime they would have returned there.

    Duh.

    For Nalle 2 plus 2 is always still 2.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    I’d call it the law of interfering in other people’s affairs is always a bad idea myself,

    Well, that might be a good one, but it’s not as catchy as the old standards I brought up. Perhaps the MYOB rule…

    Dave. I find your version of the story far too subjective personally.

    Well sure it’s subjective. I’m personally invested in the dream of a middle-class, educated Iran which flourished briefly under the Shah. There certainly could have been a better government in Iran instead of the Shah, but there wasn’t, and it’s only gotten worse since then.

    Dave

  • moonraven

    Nalle can’t even get a visa to visit Iran, but he is PERSONALLY INVESTED?

    Megalomania from a rusted out trailer in West Texas.

    Just what we need as the arbiter and fomenter of discussion on this forum.

  • moonraven

    This thread is dead because clavos refused to post current info since it makes his anti-Morales position into being a shill for Bush.

    I willpost further info on the Chavez thread.

  • STM

    There is no doubt the Shah was a ratbag and his instruments of state control were the kind of thing you’d expect to see among the military dictators of south america: Pinochet, Galtieri and their ilk.

    True, the alternative for the Iranian people hasn’t been much better – although part of their suffering came from having to fight a war of survival that cost millions of lives, against Saddam Hussein’s Iraq (at that time supported financially and militarily by the US).

    It’s telling isn’t it? Support for the Shah’s methods of state control and support for Saddam might go some way to explaining Iran’s intransigence in its dealings with the United States and the West in general.

    However, Americans should understand that Iran is a democracy – they might not like the outcome of the polls, but the current government was voted in fair and square, and if it gets any more unpopular in Iran than it is, it will likely be turfed out on its head fair and square.

    Islam and democracy need not be mutually exclusive. In this regard, they are a legitimate government, no matter how the west views them. I say in this case, talk isn’t cheap even if Bushco find it unpalatable … it’s the only answer. Our intransigence makes us all complicit in whatever outcomes unfold as a result of it.

  • Franco

    #99 — Christopher Rose

    I’d call it the law of interfering in other people’s affairs is always a bad idea myself, Dave.

    Would that include say, Sudan and Durfar, or where exactly would you draw the line, and why?

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Nalle can’t even get a visa to visit Iran, but he is PERSONALLY INVESTED?

    I’ve been considering a family ski trip to Iran, but not until things calm down a bit. If you read some of my earlier comments you’d know that I have Iranian relatives (by marriage), as well as business associates and friends from Iran. Plus as you may recall I lived there as a kid, so yes I have a personal connection to the country that’s a bit more meaningful than just a desire to incorporate it into a grand neo-marxist alliance against the US.

    Dave

  • http://www.buyingone.com Christopher Rose

    I’d say that history has shown that on balance the impulse to interfere in other countries affairs has done more harm than good.

    Obviously what’s going on in Sudan and Darfur is terrible but my remarks were made in the context of a broader historical view rather than a specific instance.

    If you refer back to the Wikipedia information I posted, the roots of the situation we face today are clearly depicted.

  • moonraven

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

    STM makes a good point that Iran is a democracy.

    Unlike the US, which some on this site view as a BENEVOLENT dictatorship based on their fanatical belief that Lonesome George is actualy looking out for their interests, and which savvier folks see for the tyranny and despotism he manifests.

  • moonraven

    The infantiley destructive antics of the US-backed governors of Santa Cruz and company were hoist on their own petard.

    Evo indicated yesterday that there will be a 50% cut in their gas taxes at the governor level–with that tax going to the municipalities instead as part of a program of in-depth development.

  • Franco

    The opposition-run Bolivian Senate repelled Thursday Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez’s “serious meddling” for his warning against a “machine-gun Vietnam” if his Bolivian counterpart Evo Morales were overthrown or killed.

    Bolivian Senate refuses Chávez’s “serious meddling”

  • Zedd

    Franco,

    Darfur is IN Sudan. Saying Darfur AND Sudan is like saying Tuscan AND Italy. :o)

  • Zedd

    that’s Tuscany…

  • Franco

    Zedd

    Yes, just like Caracas, Venezuela or Los Angeles Calif. You assume that I am confused about this, I’m not.

  • REMF

    “Megalomania from a rusted out trailer in West Texas.”
    – moonraven

    Actually it’s a fortified compound.

  • moonraven

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

    Franco failed to excise the word OPPOSITION from his post about the Bolivian Senate. Of course the OPPOSITION shoots off its mouth about Chavez. Lots of CIA money in the US Embassy in La Paz, of course, is NOT INTERFERENCE?

    How stupid and gullible can you be–and not be dead already?