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Being Pro-Life-Choice

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The Tim Tebow Super Bowl furor is one of those teapot tempests which blow in every once in a while. The pro-lifers support the ad, which reportedly discusses his mother’s choice not to have an abortion, and the pro-choicers claim that it is an attempt to turn public opinion against abortion. CBS changed their long-standing policy against controversial ads during the Super Bowl and will now accept this advertisement from the conservative group, Focus on the Family.

The focus of the ad is that Tim Tebow’s mom was advised, for health reasons, to abort her baby, but she declined the doctor’s advice and Tim Tebow was born. Tebow is a devout Christian, as fans already know, and he has decided to put his money, well, you know where.

Public opinion is already against abortion. Who sits around thinking what a dandy thing it is, how everyone should have one, and how great a job it is? Let’s be rational. It’s not abortion that needs PR, any more than cancer needs a defending spokesperson. The reasons women have abortions are varied, and for many it is not an easy choice. What pro-choice activists should be promoting is abortion rights. If the public does not perceive they are doing that, then they are failing at their mission.

It would be disingenuous of me to write an article that confronts the issue of abortion without clearly identifying my side of the fence. That’s a problem. I have never been one to fence-sit (in my misguided imagination I always imagine sitting on a picket fence. Ouch!). I have very strongly held feelings and opinions about the issue of abortion rights. I believe that a woman should have the right to have an abortion if she so desires. I believe that for whatever reason a woman might seek an abortion, it’s none of my business. I believe I would never have an abortion. Lucky for me, I’ll never have to make that decision. I can’t choose between pro-life and pro-choice because neither is right for me.

Let’s say I’m pregnant (just don’t say it to my husband, he’d have a stroke. Or he’d call the National Enquirer). Okay, I’m pregnant and, to put it nicely, it’s an unwanted pregnancy. I understand that pro-lifers interpret that as an unwanted child, but bear with me, this is hypothetical. What are my options? I could have an abortion, I could give birth and give the child up for adoption, or I could give birth and keep the baby. Unfortunately in our society, some women choose a fourth option: give birth, then throw the baby in a dumpster and hope never to be caught. Pro-choice should mean pro-options. A woman should be aware of all the options and be allowed to make the choice that’s right for her.

With whom do I align myself? The pro-life people certainly don’t want me; I defend a woman’s right to abortion. The pro-choice people don’t want me; I defend a woman’s right to choose. That leaves me with my own side of the fence, pro-life-choice. There are a lot of people here with me; we don’t like abortion, we think we know how we would choose, but we refuse to choose for someone else. It is no more our affair why a woman has an abortion than it is why she would have a baby. If we’re going to be judges, give us black robes and paychecks. We prefer to tend our own gardens; that’s our choice.

Accusing CBS of sexism because the ad was accepted is like accusing CBS or any other network of promoting obesity, alcoholism, and promiscuity based on the commercials they show. We know that many things went into the decision to change policy, and one of them might have been the two-and-a-half million dollars that comes from the advertiser. That’s CBS’s job — to make money. We may not like all of their shows (or any of them!), but they are in business to make money and they don’t need our approbation. If someone is so terribly offended by the ad, they can boycott the Super Bowl or CBS; don’t tell me what I can or cannot see. Isn’t attempting to limit free speech and a reasonable exchange of ideas the equivalent of attempting to limit the rights women have over their bodies?

As for Tim Tebow and his mother, good for them. I admire them both for their bravery. She was willing to take serious risks for what she believes in. He follows in her footsteps. It’s not always easy to so openly support religious and moral convictions. But just as his mother chose for herself, Tebow is choosing what’s right for him. And CBS is choosing what’s right for CBS.

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About Miss Bob Etier

  • http://jonsobel.com/ Jon Sobel

    I don’t know, Miss Bob… I’m not sure how your “none of my business” opinion is distinct from what most people would think of as “pro-choice.” To me, whatever a person’s views on what they would do themselves, it’s their views on the rights of others that matter in this context.

  • http://www.twitter.com/egnarorm Neil

    I have to second Jon’s comment. The pro-choice movement is not named so accidentally; the idea is that legal and safe access to abortion be a freely available *choice*. I don’t think you’ll find many pro-choice advocates advocating abortion as the best or only choice, so…where do you part ways with the pro-choice movement, precisely? There are plenty of advocates who feel they wouldn’t *personally* make that decision, but still value their right to do so.

    Here’s NARAL’s position page on abortion. Where do you part ways?

  • Jim

    What does the author and the first couple of commentators mean? That woman have rights, even value the right, to be able to allow a physician to kill (I’ll save you the descriptions of the brutal methods) the vulnerable human life that is completely dependent at this time and that this innocent one doesn’t have the right to continue living? Because of the unjust law that legalized abortion we have over 3000 a day killed, countless woman trying to live out their lives in denial of the real pain, and countless men who are too cowardly to support the woman (over half would have carried their baby if the fathers were supportive), and men who have had no say in their child’s fate. We have lost the sense of the common good and the meaning of life and love. Imagine one saying I wouldn’t personally abuse my loved ones, but I wouldn’t intefere with a person’s right to choose to do so in the privacy of their homes. That is almost as ludicrous as what many are saying today about abortion except that abortion is even more brutal. Woman will find real choices from the many pro-life groups such as Birthrite and real healing from Rachel’s Vineyard.

  • http://www.twitter.com/egnarorm Neil

    No Jim, that’s not what we’re–or at least *I’m*–saying. What you purport to be fact–your framing of a fetus as “an innocent life”– is anything but. You’re discussing a matter of faith, opinion, and personal philosophy. Think about how disgusted you feel when you hear someone call a fetus “nothing more than a collection of cells”. That’s roughly how I feel about you when you try to get away with imposing your, in my estimation FLAWED worldview on this contentious and personal issue. I find it otherly unconvincing and naive to pretend complete equivalency to a human life for a fetus at all stages of development.

    For what it’s worth, there *is* a strong philosophical argument for believing in the fetus as human life and *still* advocating a moral right to an abortion. It’s not my belief, but it’s a good read, that may make you think.

    I’ll find the link and post it.

  • http://www.twitter.com/egnarorm Neil
  • Jim

    Neil,
    I hoped that we have gone beyond the rhetoric that would frame human life in the womb a matter of personal philosophy, religion or opinion. Science alone validates the reality, all that we are is present at conception and the heart of the little one (latin meaning of fetus) is beating before the woman even knows she is pregnant as was my heart and yours when we were there. I’m happy you don’t believe in that moral right of taking the life of a human being and I just ask you to research the science. Indeed, when one realizes we are talking about human life or sees the results of abortion it is moving. Yes, woman are profoundly hurt by abortion. In my activities as an advocate for both the woman and the little one I’ve seen a lot of hurt. Please reflect on this ultimate question, but don’t confuse the claim of my imposing personal beliefs with my real hope for changing hearts for a greater good.

  • http://www.twitter.com/egnarorm Neil

    You say that science validates the reality that “all we are” is present at birth. As someone well-versed in the science, I’m *very* curious as to what you think you mean here. Please explain what you think science has proven. If you mean DNA, that’s a pretty weak leg to stand on. Every hair you’ve ever pulled out by the root, every malignant cancer cell, and so on contain this sane information.

    Do you mean that science has long since established that the neural connections necessary for any empirical definition of consciousness–much less HUMAN consciousness–don’t form anywhere NEAR conception? Do you mean that the circulation of blood caused by a beating heart is a necessary but NOT sufficient condition to establish empirically the presence of consiousness?

    If you continually embed your own assumptions into your reading of “the science”, as you understand it, confirmation bias is going to render you completely incapable of considering other points of view. Inasmuch as is possible, I suggest coming at the scientific literature agnostically, and try to see what it *really* says, divorced from the press releases and moralizing propaganda of the pro-life movement. It does not mean what you think it means.

    Further, your claim that “women” are “hurt” by abortion may be an attempt at compassion, but it comes off as reductive and anti-woman. I don’t doubt that some women are deeply hurt by the feelings that follow choosing an abortion. Do you think that’s helped along by outdated sexist cultural moors pushed by anti-choice groups, which celebrate victories on shaming women into regret?

    But to claim that you know what’s true of all women, or even most women, is to pretend a though your sheltered experience of regretful testimonials is absolutely representative of the whole. My experience tells a different story, but I’m not so brash as to presume that I therefore know something secret about the feelings of “all women”

    Your scientific arguments fall short because, well, they lack science. As is the case with many pro-life advocates, you confuse an entity with the potential to become a human life with that itself. To claim that you know better is to, consciously or not, to LIE. As someone well-versed in the science and deeply invested in the morality of such decisions, I wish you’d be more careful with your argument. I can tell that you mean it, but you don’t have the empirical support you think you do.

  • http://www.twitter.com/egnarorm Neil

    I don’t want to spam this page, but I feel obligated to apologize for the frequent typos in my responses. This conversation is taking place, for me, on an iPhone, and my editing and typing skills fall short on this tiny screen. Thanks to everyone for bearing with me.

  • Arch Conservative

    “Public opinion is already against abortion. Who sits around thinking what a dandy thing it is, how everyone should have one, and how great a job it is?”

    Apparently Planned Parenthood feels it’s something to be celebrated Miss bob. A few years back they were actually selling t-shirts that read “I had an abortion.”

    As someone who is pro-life I can really appreciate the logic and rationality in your article Miss Bob. Too often the twos sides of this issue do nothing but scream at each other without even attempting to understand the others’ point of view.

    As someone who is pro-life I understand how very unfair it must feel to a woman who finds herself pregnant when perfect strangers tell her that she must bring the baby to term. When people would call her a horrible person for not doing so….When those strangers are forcing her to make a very personal decision which will affect the entire course of her life. This aspect of the whole debate is not lost on me and in fact I often feel many on my side can be hypocritical. It doesn’t sit well with me that the Catholic Church would deny woman birth control and then chastise them if they consider abortion for an unplanned pregnancy. While being pro-life I am a very strong proponent of birth control use and education. I think it’s a shame that insurance companies do not cover it.

    Here comes the but………..

    For me the bottom line is that it IS a baby. I’m not religious at all. My opposition to abortion doesn’t stem from Jesus or some church telling me it’s wrong. It comes from my own conscience. I don’t see how any caring human being can look at a picture of an aborted fetus and their heart not ache, if even a little. I find it absolutely disgusting when organizations like Planned Parenthood market t-shirts celebrating abortion. I find it bizzarre that anyone who actually understands what a partial birth abortion is would support the practice. I also believe it to be extremely disengenous when pro-choice groups seek to paint this elective procedure a vital ubiquitous womens’ health issue that is basically a choice between the mother’s life of the baby’s.

    We have become so desensitized to the reality of abortion. Many of us treat it as cavalierly as we treat oil changes for our vehicles and that is downright disturbing.

    As for CBS and the Tebow add. Miss Bob hit the nail on the head. They are a private company and as such entitled to decide which ads they will air and which they will not. Anyone that has a problem with that is free to change the channel.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    We have become so desensitized to the reality of abortion. Many of us treat it as cavalierly as we treat oil changes for our vehicles and that is downright disturbing.

    Bing,

    You do not realize how sensitive you truly are. It was just a couple of centuries ago that the allegedly civilized Europeans would “lose” their kids in a forest because they didn’t have enough food to feed them (Hansel & Gretel), or in the alternative, bring them to some old woman who would kill them (how BIG your teeth are, grandma!). Or put unwanted babies in trees to fall down (lullaby baby…) They would lock the retards or epileptics in institutions or closets. And that’s the “civilized” countries, Bing. The other countries all over Asia and Arabia sell kids into slavery routinely – even today. And the Chinese and Indians have been aborting female fetuses for decades now. G-d help you if you do not shake you head like a dummy and say, “but they’re also civilized!”

    But here is the nasty catch in arguments against abortion. What do you do with the unwanted baby? Whose responsibility is he? If he is to live and have a decent shot at a decent life, you can’t tell some witless teenage airhead, “you spread your legs, now you live with what you’ve done.” The teenage airhead is not going to provide any decent life for that baby at all. And Bing, babies cost money. And they don’t sop costing money as they grow, either. I’m a father, and that is one fact I can confirm for you.

    The standard solution has been orphanages. I leave those who have been in orphanages to comment on them, if they choose. I do not know and dare not comment.

  • zingzing

    “The pro-choice people don’t want me; I defend a woman’s right to choose.”

    that makes no sense.

  • Arch Conservative

    Yes it does.

  • http://www.twitter.com/egnarorm Neil

    Arch conservative,

    Only if you misunderstand the prochoice position. No one in the mainstream glorifies abortion. Those t-shirts mentioned earlier celebrate the freedom to have made a choice WITHOUT SHAME, *not* to say “abortions are great let’s all get one!”

    it’s your prerogative to think that there’s an immeasurable component to human life that is present at conception, and I encourage you to advocate other people to share your beliefs. But that’s not what you’re doing; the “pro-life” movement pretends to have special KNOWLEDGE as to the nature of life, knowledge which is unsupported in any emperical sense, and then goes further in seeking to MANDATE its particular subjective thoughts on “truth” as the law that everyone must follow. If your position is so strong, why do you have to try to legally force so
    many people to share it?

  • http://bob-lostintime.blogspot.com/ Miss Bob Etier

    Oh the attention! I feel faint — where were y’all when I wrote about pancakes? I avoid responding to comments because I like the forum of opinion to be “open”; since I’ve already made mine known, I want to read what others have to say. Since I broke my rule about keeping my opinion about abortion to myself, I am breaking my “no comments” rule.
    #1 #2. Jon Sobel, Neil. I am pro-choices. Every side of an argument should be able to make their case, even repetitiously if they so choose. I am anti-censorship. If what you have to say may influence people to choose other than what I have to offer, I don’t have the right to shut you up. The thrust of my opinion piece is that “pro-choice” is a misnomer if its proponents will not allow other choices to be presented. In the case of the Super Bowl ad, a certain faction of the pro-choice movement chose to smear CBS and others in an effort to prevent the ad from being aired. The “choice” we’re talking about is a legal right that pro-choice allegedly wants to protect. Using censorship to do so is simply trampling on another legal right.
    #3. Jim. Abusing your loved ones is illegal, abortion is legal.
    #9. Arch Conservative. Wow! T-shirts that said, “I had an abortion.” I wonder how many were sold. Abortion is a very private matter, and advertising that one has undergone the procedure seems nearly obscene. Is there a market for “I had a wart removed”? Perhaps, wearing an “I had an abortion” t-shirt is like advertising “I’m available with no strings attached.”
    #10 Ruvy. Your comments define much of my philosophy. One of the reasons I support abortion rights is that over 1000 children are murdered in the United States every year by their parents or care-givers. Thousands more are abused, neglected, and/or abandoned. It makes me wonder why there are so many activists interested in the rights of the unborn and so few interested in these young, sentient victims. I hope it’s just my imagination, but it seems safer to be a child abuser/killer in America than to be an abortion provider. Maybe I suffer from too much — or too little — media.
    #11. Zingzing. The pro-choice response to the Super Bowl ad would be “Yes, that’s one choice, here are others…” instead of “you’re brainwashing people against abortion” (NOT a direct quote). Maybe I misunderstood your statement. Did you, perhaps, mean that it makes no sense for any group not to want me? (chuckle)
    EVERYONE: You disappoint me. I was sure someone would jump on this statement: “Accusing CBS of sexism…is like accusing CBS…of promoting obesity, alcoholism, and promiscuity based on the commercials they show.”

    Thank you all for your thoughtful and thought-provoking comments, and especially for keeping them civil.

  • http://www.twitter.com/egnarorm Neil

    The complaint I have towards CBS is one of hypocrisy, not of silencing voices. That they claim to have a “no-controversial-isues” policy and reject ads of similar heated nature but air this one particular point of view one or particular subject–it strikes me as being dishonest in thir previously established policy. That’s all.

  • Arch Conservative

    Neil….look at a picture of the result of an abortion and tell me it’s a ball of cells or some other benign term, and not in fact a human being.

    You can claim science is on your side but all I see is a bunch of hi falutin semantic rhetoric.

    If you find it so easy to dismiss my argument then may I suggest you actually go watch an abortion being performed in person. See what the end result is. Unlike your pontifications on the legal and scientific aspects of the issue you will find something very real. Something concrete and undeniable. Something you could actually reach out and touch with your very own hands if you were so inclined. Tell me it wasn’t a living human being Neil.

    Ruvy…You’re usually one of the more lucid and reasonable people on this. Which is why it’s disappointing to see you bring up the pro lifers don’t care for the baby after it’s born cliche. I usually use this analgy when someone brings up that retread. If I believe that it would be wrong for someone to break into my neighbor’s home and shoot him in the head, ending his life, does that make me responsible for his welfare for the rest of his life? Or does it simply mean that short of immediate self defense I believe he, just like a child in the womb, has the right to their life? Do any of us have the right to claim we know with certainty how a life will turn out and thereby have the right to end it before it begins if the outlook isn’t sunny Ruvy?

    I think the best solution to the problem is for society to do all that it can to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies through the dissemination of education pertaining to birth control and the actual birth control methods themselves. That’s where I am in a nutshell on this issue. People aren’t going to stop screwing any time soon so we need as much birth control as possible and we need insurance companies to start covering.

    With the exception of the author of this article I haven’t really seen any attempt by the alleged pro-choicers to see my, or another view of the issue different from their own.

    The more I read of Miss bob Etier, the more I come to appreciate the opportunity to share this site with her.

    If you really wanna get your hands dirty Miss Bob suit up and join the rest of us in the deep, dark end of the pool in the politics section.

  • http://www.twitter.com/egnarorm Neil

    Arch conservative,

    Being careful with my words (if not my spelling–again, iPhone apologies) does nor mean I’m trying to dazzle you with empty rhetoric. There’s plenty of substance here, which you aren’t really addressing. Interestingly, I also haven’t seen any thoughtful responses to Thomson’s argument, which momentarily grants you the fetus-as-child fiction.

    Do fetuses, after a certain point of development, look like human beings. Undoubtedly, and that can stir emotion. But that doesn’t make the emotional response correct. Can you provide any evidence that what appears, to your untrained and subjective eye, to be human life actually is? I doubt it.

    At some point, Michelangelo’s David was an unadorned block of marble. Was it a priceless work of art at that point? What about the day after he started carving it? The day after that? You and I may disagree about WHEN blowing it up is a crime against art rather than mere destruction of masonry, but that doesn’t grant you the fact that it was *always* priceless.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Interesting analogy, Neil.

    There are arguments along similar lines as regards the subject of personal identity. For example, is a ship that has been rebuilt plank by plank – so that not one original part of it remains but everything has been replaced – the same ship?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    But the analogy here has a different point – for example, is the RoboCop officer Murphy?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “the complaint I have towards CBS is one of hypocrisy, not of silencing voices. That they claim to have a “no-controversial-isues” policy . . .” (#15)

    However, it goes beyond “no-controversial-issues” policy. Apart from that, it continues to still be a hotly-debated political issue, which puts it in a wholly different category.

  • Arch Conservative

    “Do fetuses, after a certain point of development, look like human beings. Undoubtedly, and that can stir emotion. But that doesn’t make the emotional response correct. Can you provide any evidence that what appears, to your untrained and subjective eye, to be human life actually is? I doubt it.”

    Neil, you claim to have an appreciation for hard science and then you offer..

    “Do fetuses, after a certain point of development, look like human beings. Undoubtedly,

    I find this rather vague and unscientific. So I’ll help you out.

    Four weeks after fertilization…organs begin to develop

    Ten Weeks…a full set of functioning vital organs are present

    Twelve Weeks….the child will begin to move his appendages..although very small all the features of a human body are present…..

    24 weeks (the point at which most states with late term abortion bans draw the line) the baby’s brain and other organs are in the stages of advanced development

    That’s a link to a week by week description of the process.

    I do think you hide behind words and rhetoric to assuage your own conscience of the position you’ve staked out if nothing else Neil. Your crass analogy of an inanimate, lifeless statue to a living human being is further evidence of this.

    You can no more define life than I can but common sense dictates that more share my view and that it is the correct one. No one walks up to a pregnant woman and says “hey how’s the fetus doing?” It’s more like “how’s the baby doing.” It only becomes a fetus and ceases to be a baby when it’s deemed unwanted.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    It’s not a crass analogy, Archie, but a very challenging one in fact.

    Which isn’t to say it’s necessarily a proper one.

    There are definitely analogous elements – the most important one being “value.”

    Of course, I have to agree with you that the value of human life is not the same as value of a work of art.

  • Arch Conservative

    I find it crass that one would equate human life with a block of marble but that’s just me.

    We are uniquely unique and I feel sorry for anyone that cannot recognize that.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    There is no equating going on here, Arch, at least not for me – only a suggestion as to how one might think about the issue. That is the whole point behind analogizing, merely offering an aid to thinking.

    And I’m surely glad that you’re holding human life as incomparably unique. So do I.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    You do realize, of course, Archie, that in so doing (i.e., holding human life as the insuperable value) you may be charged (by some) as committing the sin of “species-centrism” – or to put it simply, that you’re merely being “self-serving.”

    For what if it turns out to be that the species is inherently flawed, beyond redemption, and as such, that it doesn’t deserve therefore to be the focus of such abject admiration?

    Just asking.

  • http://bob-lostintime.blogspot.com/ Miss Bob Etier

    Let’s pretend that everyone tells the truth. CBS claims to have “changed” their policy towards controversial advertising on the Super Bowl. It’s not hypocrisy if they will, indeed, accept ads that may address other controversial issues. Change is not necessarily an indicator of hypocrisy, any more than refusal to change is.

  • http://etierphotography.blogspot.com/ FCEtier

    RE: # 16 above, “If you really wanna get your hands dirty Miss Bob suit up and join the rest of us in the deep, dark end of the pool in the politics section.”

    Arch, be careful what you ask for! LOL Miss Bob is a TIGER!

    As for me, I limit my comments in the political section as some over there consider them to be spam.

  • http://www.twitter.com/egnarorm Neil

    Yes Roger, that’s the clear meaning of the analogy. It’s to establish that creation is a process, not a binary “first you don’t exist and then you do” situation. No one has made any efforts to equate life and art, and it’s dishonest of you, Arch, to pretend to do so.

    Disregarding the fact that your science is oversimplified (wikipedia is actually quite well sourced on this issue, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prenatal%20development), what are we supposed to get out of your timeline.

    Is it ok to terminate pregnancy before four weeks, because organ development hasn’t begun? Or is it ok before ten weeks, because organ systems aren’t “fully developed”? Or is it features that appear human, and we’re ok until 12 weeks? Or maybe you want to wait until the recognizable human cognition that requires advanced cereral development is present, and then your opinion jives with the law?

    If anything, your only-somewhat-scientific notes serve to establish that what we think of a a human being ISN’T there the whole time. You’re very obviously, subjectively and emotionally, picking arbitrarily what “feels right” to you. Your prerogative when making your decision, but not when making MINE.

    And if we could please stop it with the “beating heart” nonsense. This isn’t Galen’s time, we know better than to suggest that the seat of human existence is found in our fuel pump. It’s an attempt to evoke romantic notions that equivocate heart with spirit with life, and it doesn’t do your self-proclaimed scientific knowledge any favors. Similar is your commentary on language use. That we resort to the hopeful semantic “how’s the baby doing?” doesn’t mean that the label is an accurate definition.

    Please don’t hold readers in such low regard that you think a direct appeal to emotion can mask the intellectual difficulties with your argument. You presume too much about my knowledge of science and my character in general, and you, at times deliberately, misunderstand and misrepresent my argument. Let’s try or a more honest discussion than that. I can’t imagine responding to any more “doesn’t that make you feel BAD?? Therefore I’m right.”

  • http://www.twitter.com/egnarorm Neil

    Miss Bob,

    I’d love to assume honesty and forthrightness on everyone’s, but I find myself constantly disappointed when I do so. Regardless, it’s far from a settled matter whether CBS has indeed changed their policy in a fair way.

    Aside from that though, I’m still not sure why you’ve built a wall of separation between yourself and the pro-choice position: tere are plenty of strong choice advocates who are not terrifically bothered by the super bowl ad’s existence. And it’s hardly the position’s key issue: choice is, and on that you seem to agree.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I’d still argue that “politically-contested issues” shouldn’t simply fall in the category of mere “controversial issues” (see #20).

    As befitting any business, we’ve come to accept the propriety of (true) advertising on behalf of any product – sex, fast foods, alcohol, even tobacco of late – whether we approve of the product or not. But it’s different when what’s essentially a venue for commercial products becomes a platform for espousing only one side of what’s politically controversial and disputed simply because of the ability to pay. (Especially when the event in question is Super Bowl.)

  • zingzing

    archie: “Apparently Planned Parenthood feels it’s something to be celebrated Miss bob. A few years back they were actually selling t-shirts that read “I had an abortion.””

    are you really so tone deaf? it’s not a celebration. it’s not being ashamed. big difference. a celebration ends with an exclamation.

    and what makes the pro-choice crowd against a woman’s right to choose? if you answer incorrectly, i’m going to force you to have an abortion. just fair warning.

  • http://bob-lostintime.blogspot.com/ Miss Bob Etier

    Will that be a retroactive abortion?

  • zingzing

    you’d have to ask archie, i guess…

  • Glenn Contrarian

    For the ‘Pro-Life’ crowd, especially Arch –

    1. If you were for any war since WWII (when it wasn’t a national choice), then you’re NOT ‘pro-life’…you’re ‘pro-birth.

    2. Anyone who eagerly stands on a street corner with a gruesome anti-abortion sign but will NOT stand outside a bar making sure a pregnant woman doesn’t go in and drink…is a hypocrite. I’ll expound on that in a moment.

    3. Anyone who was against S-Chip cannot be pro-life. Pro-birth, maybe, but not pro-life. There’s a difference.

    4. Anyone who is against funding drug rehab is also NOT pro-life. Pro-birth, maybe, but NOT pro-life. This goes along with #2 above.

    5. Using the ‘pro-lifers’ logic, the moment a woman becomes pregnant, if she does ANYTHING that could in ANY way endanger the fetus – like riding without a seat belt, or drinking Coca-Cola, or going to an amusement park – should be charged with child endangerment.

    In short, IMO the vast majority of “pro-lifers” are hypocrites. What’s worse, they don’t realize that the whole abortion debate is more about politics than anything else – we know this since until just recently, the health care plan for the Republican National Committee covered abortion.

    Over the past 10 1/2 years my wife and I have cared for six medically-fragile children. One of them had fetal-drug syndrome – his mother had done drugs while pregnant, and (according to the social worker) had had at least one other child with this condition. We had him for about seven years until he got too heavy to care for. He’s since passed away. Another child has been with us the entire time – he has fetal-alcohol syndrome.

    Both of these children were 100% disabled…and will be for life. They have absolutely no hope of independent function. They both breathed through trach tubes, were fed through gastrointestinal tubes, and were completely non-verbal (well, the first one had a vocabulary of ONE word – ‘Hi’ – which he’d say with the biggest smile you ever saw).

    Each of these two kids cost the state a quarter million dollars per year – almost all of which went to doctor bills, hospital bills, supplies, and on-site nursing.

    What these kids live isn’t life. Sure, they have love from us, no abuse, a warm and safe place to sleep…but they’ll never ever know a loving woman’s touch, or the joy of discovering something new, or the happiness of watching their own children play in a sandbox. What’s the saddest thing to me is knowing that we’ll be moving (hopefully overseas) soon where they cannot go, and knowing what’s probably waiting for them here. Why? Because we know what kind of Foster homes they came from – the kind that gives Foster parents a bad reputation.

    There’s hundreds of these kids in my state – and at least ten thousand nationwide. Each and every one costs a quarter million dollars or more in taxpayer dollars per year to care for. That’s at least $2.5 billion of YOUR dollars, people.

    There are times to oppose abortion – such as when the fetus is developed enough to survive outside the womb without specialized medical equipment and there are no apparent serious defects – and there are times to allow women to have the choice of what should and should not be done to their own bodies.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    You’re usually one of the more lucid and reasonable people on this. Which is why it’s disappointing to see you bring up the pro lifers don’t care for the baby after it’s born cliche.

    I never said that, Bing. I’m trying to illustrate the whole range of problems in this issue, and since I know that at least one person has personal experience in an orphanage who comments on this site, I was hoping that this person would comment.

    There are many agencies that try to help troubled girls who find themselves pregnant and not wanting the baby, which offer them alternatives to abortion. In Israel, I can think of one, called Efrat. I’m sure there are others in the States. I also happen to know that there are a number of orphanages in Jerusalem.

    It may be in the States that “conservatives” make a stink about the unborn and don’t appear to care about the born babies – but I do not know that this is necessarily so. Here in Israel, it does not work that way. And Bing, do remember that I live here, and not there.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    In defense of Archie, it must be added that practical/pragmatic considerations – in this case, how are the unwanted babies going to be taken cared of – never ought to affect what may at bottom be an essentially moral decision.

    And in defense of Ruvy, I believe Ruvy is full-well aware of that.

  • Arch Conservative

    It’s sad that so many are advancing the same tired old argument. “It’s easy to be pro life when you don’t give a damn about people after they’re born.”

    Maybe I’m just being silly but I’ve never felt that my belief that a baby inside the womb should not be killed unless the life of the mom was at stake obligated me to take on the responsibility of providing for the welfare of every last soul who’s been dealt a raw deal in life.

    It’s utterly disturbing to see so many seemingly ration people declare their complete and utter comfort with the notion of snuffing out a life at it’s very beginning for no other reason than there can be no guarantees that it will be a happy life. It would seem the logical extrapolation of that argument, from what I gather of others’ posts, would be to start offing orphans, drug users and disabled people because we deem their quality of life so insufficient as to not be allowed to be continued.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Arch, #37,

    “It’s easy to be pro life when you don’t give a damn about people after they’re born.”

    I probably would have phrased that statement a little differently, “I wish that everyone could see that all life is precious and proceed in life accordingly.”

    and

    I really do agree with you after hovering over this article and thread with an observation for the last two days.”

    and

    “It is not ironic that only men are responding to this subject.”

    I really had to open my eyes here and realize that unborn babies also belong to the men who fathered them, even if the origin of that sperm came from a Sperm Bank and an unknown father.

    “It is life!”

    It breaks all of our hearts to think of what might be, if only given the chance to breath, and I do thank God that my mother hadn’t aborted me.