Today on Blogcritics
Home » Culture and Society » Are You Listening, La Presidenta? The People Have Spoken

Are You Listening, La Presidenta? The People Have Spoken

Please Share...Tweet about this on Twitter0Share on Facebook0Share on Google+0Share on LinkedIn0Pin on Pinterest0Share on TumblrShare on StumbleUpon0Share on Reddit0Email this to someone

I love politics. I love politics the way some people love movies or television. Only to me, politics are real. I have loved politics since I was a teenager. I don’t remember exactly when it was I began my love affair with them, but I suspect it was when Lyndon Johnson ran for President. I was mesmerized with the entire process. It was much more interesting than the Miss America contest, at least to me, young as I was. I was too fat for a bathing suit, although I loved the talent contest. I never wanted to be Miss America — never. The bathing suit thing was a real hangup. Besides, listening to all those senators was much more interesting, they really had something to say.

I never remember a time when I was not involved in politics at some level: national, city, state, and even neighborhood. I was always fascinated by how the machine moved and who moved it. It was like playing checkers.

Now I live here, in Argentina. I have lived here since 2004.  I came here to dance Argentine tango, I came here because I fell in love with the Argentine culture. My life is completely different. Now, I live with much less, but I have much more: I sold everything I had, everything I had ever worked for:  the house, the nice car, the truck. 

I came with my computer, my dog, and my tango shoes to start my new life, and  I have never regretted it.  I live completely differently; my life is in Spanish, I spend in pesos.  I am no longer the high-power, high-earning computer geek, I do what I can to earn a living: I rent two bedrooms in my apartment to people who come to dance tango, I teach tango, I do translations; I live like an Argentine, from day to day.  

I am happy Obama is the president of the U.S., but to be honest, I am not really all that interested in U.S. politics anymore. They do not affect me on a daily basis. It is the politics of Argentina which affect me. They cause my daily expenses to go out of control; make life a little less secure.

Argentine politics are complex. Especially when you need to learn about them in another language. I don’t read the Wall Street Journal and Mary O’Grady to get my opinions. She would probably prefer to colonize Latin America and be done with it. The Economist is another; though maybe they don’t want to colonize Latin America, they certainly think that the Western world is the only world that knows how. (They certainly do, just look at the mess they created.)

I read both papers – Clarín and La Nación. I read Perfíl, Página 12 and my all time favorite, the magazine Noticias. Noticias is not afraid to come out and say what they really think about the government. Then there are the taxi drivers, they always have an opinion. I am a news junkie, I started watching Argentine TV news when I got here to better understand the accent and pick up the language. TN, AN, TeleFe, C5N. I watch them all. Little by little, I started to understand.

What was becoming obvious is that the media was not printing or broadcasting what was really going on. The emperor’s new clothes was becoming the reality of living in Argentina. The government would quote figures that were unreal. Prices were going higher and higher, yet the government said they were not. The signs were all around: the economy was going to “baja” and La Presidenta was saying how great things were.

Cristina and Nestor wanted to rule forever, they had this dynasty thing going on. Along with Hugo in Venezuela, they thought they had things figured out. It was amazing to me how a president would continually ignore the demands of the people. It is amazing to me how arrogant she and her husband are, and how they think they can get away with it.

Then things began to change. First Julio Cobos, the vice president, voted against her and voted with the campo, the farmers. It was a historic vote; amazing, when you stop to think about it. Rather than hold out the olive branch and take a step towards healing wounds, La Presidenta, raccoon eyes and all, chose to ignore the situation and the vice president. To this day, she has refused to speak to him, which has turned him into a hero. He is adored throughout the country for taking a stand on principle. He has continued to speak in favor of the people and go against the president and her policies.

Little by little, the support for the old Peronist party was falling away. We needed change here, the old way of doing business was not working. People here admired Obama and felt sorry for him having to deal with years of corruption. “We need an Obama.” is what they would say to me.

To preserve the dynasty, the President decided to move up the October elections to June, figuring the opposition would never have time to mount a reasonable campaign, and her husband, the other part of the dynamic duo decided to run for diputado. (Congressman of the lower house).  The official excuse was we the people would be too bothered with a bad economy in October to deal with elections. Huh?

What they didn’t plan on was Francisco De Narváez, a wealthy businessman running a well organized campaign. He admired Obama. He spent time analyzing the Obama campaign and met with representatives of Obama’s campaign staff. He patterned his campaign much like Obama’s.

He is an interesting guy. He dropped out of school, yet Harvard Business School uses his company, Casa Tia, as a model. He owns many companies, including American TV. He is a Colombian by birth, but came to Argentina when he was 3, and is a naturalized citizen.

He united with Mauricio Macri, the mayor of Buenos Aires, and Gabriela Michetti, who resigned as vice mayor and was also running for congress to campaign together with him. People were doubtful he would win. “They will pay people to vote for Kirchner.” is what my friends said. “They will falsify ballots. They will do what they have to to win.” I did not want Nestor Kirchner to win. I did not know anyone who did.

What was the turning point? Was it when Christina helped Hugo buy an Argentine business in Venezuela? That seemed to scare the hell out of the business community here. Finally. De Narváez asked people “Do you want to be like Chile and Brasil? Or do you want to be like Venezuela?” No one wants to be like Venezuela and the sale of Techint to the Venezuela government pushed the envelope. It was a wake up call.

Or maybe it was when they tried to make De Narváez look like an ephedrine drug lord because one of his 350 employees used one of his 350 company cell phones in his name to make drug buys. They were trying to get a hearing against him 2 weeks before the election. Jeesh! Even my cleaning lady saw through the dirty politics of that maneuver.

When all fails in dirty politics you can always use the flu. Five days before the election the government was going loco publicizing the swine flu. 50 times a minute we were warned about the perils of the "gripe porcina."  Along with the travails of the gripe porcina were the dangers of voting. Explicit instructions were given on how to best vote during this horrid epidemic of flu.

What effect do you think this had? In my building, I overheard a conversation between several neighbors, debating whether or not to go vote because of the flu. I, la norteamericana, stepped in “You have to go vote.” I told them. “You have to. They are using the flu to manipulate you to not vote.” Can you imagine? All eyes were on me. “Look,” I told them, “This flu is bad, but last year in Argentina over 8,000 people died of the flu, this year there are 17. My HMO is not full of people. It is the same as always.”

My neighbors are shocked. How come they never think of these things? Too many years of living in the Bay Area. “You can check the numbers on Google.” I tell them. “They don’t want you to vote. Intelligent people are not going to vote for Kirchner.” They laugh. “Vote.” I tell them. “You have to vote.”

On Sunday at 6:00 pm, I turn on the television. At 6:02 all the stations except the American network are declaring Kirchner the winner. “Kirchner ganó” blinks across the screen. How disgusting. They are paid to do this. The government subsidizes the media and therefore on some levels controls it. It was a law that went into effect during the crisis to help when advertising revenues went down. Now it is used to control the media.

The returns are starting to come in. I am glued to the TV and channel surfing – TN, AN, TeleFE, C5N, Cronica, 26. The center of the country has gone completely for the opposition, or other parties, the same for Santa Cruz, home of the Kirchners. Then at 8:00 pm, De Narváez takes a lead that never lets up. I watch anxiously.

At 10:00 pm, it is obvious the President and her husband are getting the pants beaten off them. What is most amazing is the attitude of the news media; before, they were cautious, pro-government, but when the returns were overwhelming for Santa Fe, Cordoba, La Pampa, Santa Cruz, and Buenos Aires, one newscaster broke into a huge grin and said “Oh well, tomorrow we begin with a new country.” At that point the news media on all stations became no holds barred, and began to report the news, not the sanitized versions they were supposed to report. The Kirchner loss was a gain in other areas.

I stayed glued to the television. Like everyone else I wanted to know if the lead would stay and if there would be any word from the “K” factions. None came. De Narváez was out and visible, thanking his supporters. There were t-shirts that said “895 days until De Narváez is governor” others that said “Mauricio for President.”  Daniel Scioli on the K side canceled his press conference. De Narváez never lost his lead. When they interviewed Macri, his comment was he hoped the president was watching.

Finally, at 2:00 am or so, the Pinguino (Kirchner, the "penguin" the former president, husband of La Presidenta) came out to concede. He said he would not contest the election. He said his wife would not step down. He was pretty boring, Argentines are not good losers. At 2:45 am I finally went to bed ,saturated with the news.

In the morning when I woke up, the headlines were blaring.  De Narváez told the president he hoped that she reads the results of the election well . That remains to be seen. Nestor stepped down as President of the Peronist party.

The president does not have the majority anymore. But in her press conference this afternoon, when she had all the opportunity to once again hold out an olive branch, she harped on how it was only 2.5 points between her husband and De Narváez . Perhaps Cristina needs to be reminded of another president who was trounced in mid year elections and didn’t want to listen. His name was de la Rúa.

Powered by

About Tangospam

  • Clavos

    Welcome to Blogcritics!

    This is a nice insight into contemporary Argentine life and politics.

    It’s of particular interest to me because I visited Buenos Aires a number of times while working for a South American airline. I found it to be the most sophisticated, cosmopolitan city in South America at the time.

  • http://www.tangospam.typepad.com Deby -TangoSpam

    Thank you! I hope to provide more insight of what it is like to live here. Ilove living here. Buenos Aires is a city of conflicts. But then I guess that is what makes it so unique and never boring. Besos

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    I found it to be the most sophisticated, cosmopolitan city in South America at the time.

    It still is. Well, sophisticated anyway. I was there a couple of years ago. Beautiful city, beautiful country.

    Interesting article. Makes a nice change from the usual americentric monkey poop-throwing that goes on here! ;-)

  • http://www.tangospam.typepad.com Deby -TangoSpam

    Thank you…Dr. Dreadful. I like that. Well… you know, people from the Bay Area have never been normal, you Fresnoites (?)should know that.

    Argentina is a beautiful country. As for Buenos Aires, it is beautiful, but it gets dirtier and more run down every year. It is a shame. Don’t me started or I will start to sound like a Porteña complaining about the government. (A Porteña is someone who lives in Buenos Aires)

    Besos

  • STM

    My son is going there in November, flying to BA via Auckland, NZ. I am not particularly worried about him going to Buenos Aires (I’d be more concerned with Auckland to tell the truth), but then he’s going to – of all places – Bogota and then Rio. At least he’s decided to cancel the trip to LA.

    I suggested to him that he’d be better off staying in Buenos Aires and Argentina for the duration of the trip.

    But of course, he still knows everything.

  • http://www.tangospam.typepad.com Deby -TangoSpam

    Of course! He’s your son… I have someone staying with me from Aukland in October. But you know, I think your son will be fine Dad, even if he goes to LA. Remember what it was like when you were his age. (or maybe that is the problem…)Kiwis seem to be loved no matter where they are. Besos…

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Tired of “americentric monkey-poop,” Dreadful? Me too.

    I’ve got radicalized, From now on, it’s the critique of post-industrial societies.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    This was a delight to read! If you can get Americans to stop staring at (and smelling) their navels, you will have an accomplishment under your belt that can stand.

    A lot of this sounded terribly familiar to me. Politics in Israel are very similar to politics in Argentina in that the government controls much of what the media says – and the government here represents all of 19 families, while pretending to be a parliamentary democracy.

    Apparently life here as an ex-pat is not that different from life in Argentina as an ex-pat. You gave up most of your material possessions to pursue a passion – so did I. You live life day to day – so do I. I’m guessing that there are a lot of things you cannot rely on in Buenos Aires. That is certainly true here. You talk about the capital getting dirtier and shabbier daily – wecomed to Jerusalem!

    I look forward to reading more of your articles!

  • http://www.tangospam.typepad.com Deby

    Ruvy,

    Thank you so much for your comments. I think to be an immigrant no matter where you come from and where you go is not always easy. I moved because I wanted to, not because I had to.

    Some things are wonderful and others can make day to day life a challenge. When you are from another country (or sometimes I feel another planet) you see things differently. But then, I guess that is why I am still here!

    Besos from Buenos Aires…

    I cannot even begin to imagine what life must be like in Jerusalem. Your blog is nice.

  • STM

    Close Deby, but no cigar … he’s flying to Buenos Aires from Sydney, Australia, VIA Auckland. I hope he likes BA (everyone does) and stays there for the duration of the trip instead of heading north.

  • http://www.tangospam.typepad.com Deby

    Well I love people from Australia. I think if I ever leave here, that would be my next stop. A friend of mine just came back from Rio and he said he didn´t find it so bad. I have another American friend who lives in Medellin and he says it is lovely there. I can tell you as an Ex-pat the press blows the problems of Latin America out of shape. They really exaggerate sometimes. When I read about here I think “Who wrote this crap?” Well anyway, I will hope for the best for your son. I am sure he will be fine.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Thank you for the compliments Deby. We used to live in Jerusalem. Filthy and dirty as it is, it is way too expensive for us now. We live in the “low rent” district of the country, Judea and Samaria. And even that is becoming pricey.

    Probably the big difference between Israel and Argentina is that we have a whole bunch of people (Arabs) who want to kill us off here, who have the support of lots and lots of foreigners who think that these folks have all sorts of “rights” that their terrorist leaders whistled up out of thin air – and our leaders do not have the guts to kill the bastards off. They are afraid of “world opinion” – all these loud mouthed foreigners.

    But hey! I don’t want to talk about that here. Tell me about teaching the tango in BA!

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Surfer Jr should be fine in Bogota, Stan – I don’t think it’s the war zone it used to be. As long as he stays away from certain neighbourhoods and tries not to look too much like a tourist, he should be OK. Same goes for Rio – it’s mellowed out a lot. You can even go on tours into some of the favelas now.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    @ #12: Buenos Aires has seen its share of Arab terrorism, Ruvy, as I’m sure you remember.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    DD,

    The difference is that the Arabs – or Iranians, to be more precise, do not go after the general Argentine population – they leave that for the right-wing generals. The terrorists you refer to go after Jews – who are targets of Jew-hatred world-wide under all of its guises.

  • Mark
  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Thanks, Mark, for the link. I’m glad your’re on to it and I hope to have a fruitful discussion with you and Cindy as well.

    Let me digest the article a bit before I comment. I’ll be a break from rereading Lyotard’s ultra dense texts.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Thought-provoking article, Mark. What I see it as in essence of the critique of the present generation – is it because they’re uneducateable, lack of competent teachers, the overwhelming impact and the dummying effect of technology. One way or another, lots of people failed to do their job and, as a result, another generation down the drain.

    I believe there are some inaccuracies – e.g., the statement that “postmodern philosophy emphasizes the elusiveness of meaning and knowledge.” It’s to vague as a stand-alone, for there’s a sense they knew exactly what they were talking about – but we can shelve this matter for later. Also, the point about the reader “becoming” (and/or taking precedence over) the text is not exactly a new idea: the whole idea of deconstruction has been around for twenty years and no longer.

    Nonetheless, Kirby’s focus on pop-culture (rather than on the events in the academia) is well taken, because what better index is there of the popular sentiment.

    So perhaps revolutionary changes aren’t going to go about from the young but traditional, Marxist elements – such as the working class, whatever remains of it.

    I’d have to think about more deeply about the cultural changes that Kirby’s article is full of in order to come up with a more critical assessment. In the interest of strategy, I think it would be better, however, if we shelve the author’s interpretation of the presence until we get down to the fundamentals and identify the relevant issues, the nature of the dispute (with Habermas, for example) and other such things.

    I’m thinking of Cindy first and foremost, so that she can get grounded first, but also of myself because I haven’t consolidated my position as yet and still have some reading to do.

    Again, thanks for the link,

  • Mark

    Consider Cindy’s recent excursion into cooperative anarchy on twitter in response to the Iranian suppression. Has she put the lie to Kirby’s banality thesis, or is she the exception that proves it?

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    There’s nothing wrong with the children. They aren’t the problem with education.

    The biggest problem with education is that adult humans become very rigid and incapable of learning anything new (it’s just the way they were raised). So, these adults get the idea that they know best about things that they actually know nothing about.

    Then these brilliant adults decide how things should be done, and they enforce their plans. When things still don’t work, they double up and push harder in the same wrong direction.

    How can children be expected to learn anything with such unintelligent creatures making decisions?

    If they ever looked at evidence to see whether their beliefs are workable and supported by reality, you wouldn’t be able to tell. Most would just twist the evidence into a pretzel trying to conform it to their presuppositions or they’d just ignore it. For that is how human beings have been taught to think–always be right, never change your mind.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Deby,

    Looks like the “intellectuals” around here just made off with the comment thread. The “leftists” debate such things as anarchy, while the “rightists” debate the holiness of capitalism.

    You can forget about your strumpet of a president and her power-hustling husband. “Those who know better” here don’t want to know. The navel smelling gringos are back in the saddle and you get to walk behind the horse, broom in hand, sweeping up the er products of their debate….

  • Mark

    …speaking of examples of Kirby’s pseudo-modernists — ignorance, fanaticism and anxiety

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    …speaking of examples of Kirby’s pseudo-modernists…

    From what I remember of Kirby’s, Mark, there were no “pseudo-modernist” attachments. There were no “post-modernist” attachments either. But I think there were attachments to clean up some of the horse turds I see in the five comments above comment #21.

  • http://www.tangospam.typepad.com Deby

    Yes, I was wondering why they have to have this debate on my blog..guys can you take this somewhere else? I have to deal with “Los K” todos los dias… por favor..I think it is a little maleducado being this is my first post here guys…

  • zingzing

    deby–nope. the thread will go where it will go, no matter how much you (and ruvy, of course,) want to complain about it. that’s the beauty of this place. the thread may return to being on point, but that’s beside the point. and it’s not “your blog” anymore. you posted it here, so you get what you get.

    and trust me, ruvy’s hypocrisy knows no bounds. he’ll turn any post into an treatise on anti-semitism, or the torah, or burger king. and after he tells you all about the torah codes, he’ll drivel on some more about the “so-called intellectuals.”

    point is, you have no control over what happens once you’ve posted something here. so you can forget trying to forcibly move a conversation in one direction or another. your best bet would be to comment in ways that move the conversation in the direction you desire. post a follow-up or ask a question, but don’t try to move people away from your post, or all you’ll have is silence.

  • Mark

    No prob, Deb. I’ll be careful to stay off of your blogs. Interesting article, btw.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    I think it is a little maleducado being this is my first post here guys…

    I take it as a sign of your popularity.

    (btw, I am half way through with your article…that’s just how I am (slow)…but I can tell by your bossiness, I’m sure to love it.)

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Deby,

    zing is right about the comment threads. Like horses, they will go where they will go. He is wrong about me – but this isn’t about me. You can try to steer a thread – but it may be hard to do. Moderators do not force commenters to stay on subject on this site.

    We met several Argentines here when we moved here. From what I remember, they all came from BA. One family moved here to get treatment for their young son, who had a disease that only Ashkenazi Jews get. The boy (his nickname was Kof-Kof, after his interminable coughing) died – it was the first funeral we attended in Israel – and everybody in the Absorption Center where we all lived attended. There is a tremendous sense of community here. There was this young woman who wanted to be a photographer in the worst way. We’d see her on the bus to downtown Jerusalem dressed to kill (as in party). She got married and we lost track of her. There is one family we still know that lives in southern Jerusalem. The father was a carpenter, the mother was a nurse. They have three children who live here. The last I saw of the middle daughter, she was doing “National Service”, what young kids can do in place of military service here. She was working in a hospital.

    I can’t wait to read your followup on your lovely presidenta and her marvel of a husband, by the way.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Like horses, they will go where they will go.

    Especially if I am in the saddle.

    Moderators do not force commenters to stay on subject on this site.

    Hallefuckinglujah!

    I don’t even post at the most popular anarchist board–too many rules! One of which is to stay on topic. The greatest conversations I have experienced are ones where ideas spark other ideas. Now if this article sparks some other ideas, where do we take them?

    Anyone is free to bring the conversation back to the topic. If they post something intriguing or inflammatory or irreverent they will probably get some feedback that’s on the topic (maybe).

    This is literally unlimited space. There is plenty of room (unlimited room!) for posts that are on topic, and plenty for musings and speculations. If you want a post on topic, there is a simple solution–make one.

    Why anyone needs to try to control unlimited space is beyond me.

  • http://www.tangospam.typepad.com Deby

    Thanks Ruvy. Until recently Argentines have been known to dress very well. I suppose they still do. The first thing Americans comment on when they come here is how thin everyone is and how well they are dressed. They should have been here before. Now is nothing…

    As for La Presidenta she is now trying to push through a Chavez type law to control the media before the new congress takes their place on Dec 10. Everyone is up in arms about it.

    She basically has a mess on her hands. The farmers are on strike again as she reneged on the agreement and rescinded the laws. INDEC the national statistics bureau is being sued. Last night on TV on 4 channels they were discussing politics and believe me, they were not Pro in anyway for her.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    I don’t even post at the most popular anarchist board–too many rules!

    LOL.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Thanks for the update, Deby. Argentine politics does sound like Israeli politics. The agency I mentioned to you in your other article on identity, the NII, was on strike, and only ended a slowdown yesterday. The post office goes on strike regularly, as do loads of other workers; everybody sues everybody and it means nothing.

    But I wish the media here were against the government, instead of being paid poodles for them….

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Deby, from your perspective how much have La Kirchner’s efforts in regard to actually governing the country been subsumed beneath her efforts to hold onto power?

    If (b) is taking up more of her time than (a), then it’s definitely time for her to go.

  • http://www.tangospam.typepad.com Deby

    It is definitely time for them both to go! The elections were actually supposed to be in October, but she saw the opposition starting to gain power (and therefore votes in the house) and decided in April to hold the election in June. She figured that they would not have enough time to collect and would lose. The plan was for hubby to win and then when her term was over he would run again for Prez.

    What happened was the opposition got stronger. Hubby lost. They lost all over the country. It is pretty safe to say people hate them both.

    You have to remember this country was ruled by a dictatorship. The last thing they want is another one. The increases in poverty here are no accident. It is much easier to manipulate a poorer unedcuated populace than an educated one.

    Right now things are a little crazy. She is trying to hold on to her power and move things through before Dec 10. She doesn’t govern the country, that is the problem. She is arrogant and doesn’t listen to anyone. Probably too busy buying shoes. (She has more pairs than Imelda Marcos)

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    You have to remember this country was ruled by a dictatorship. The last thing they want is another one.

    Well, the Perons weren’t exactly saints either. Now look who’s back! You’d think people would learn… :-)

  • http://www.tangospam.typepad.com Deby

    Yeah duh… that is the problem. They don’t learn. Argentines live in the moment. Not the past or the present. What will be interesting is if one of the other parties will be able to go forward around the FVP (Peron Party) If they keep talking about Duhalde for President you can be sure that the others will look much more attractive. The Senator from Chabut Das Nieves (Although he is FVP he is a rebel and very cool) just threw his hat in the ring. Like I said, politics here are never dull.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Thanks, zing. They’ll all learn though, and quickly.

    Mark, I don’t think that Cindy is an exception. It’s more the case that Kirby is an alarmist.

    The main thing I derive from Kirby’s article is there hasn’t emerged yet any coherent philosophy to carry the ball forward. Which means that until that happens, formulations that may go back ten years or longer are still state-of-the-art.

    It’s interesting Kirby speaks of conferences which exclude the post-modernist thinkers and says nothing about the content – what actually transpires. Which, again, suggests an impasse in thought.

    Besides, I wouldn’t take the thesis of “pseudo-moderninsm” too seriously. I think it’s a passing fad (although diversion and toys are effective instruments of appeasement). I can’t believe that a whole bun of young people – the new generation – will continue living their lives in a dreamworld. Besides, my experience with the young in California is entirely different. Young minds always strive to know and are always searching.

    Cindy, you can call me anytime. I may not be prepared yet to answer all your questions, but I’ll do the best I can. I’m sorry I haven’t responded more positively in the first place. It was bad judgment on my part.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    I meant to read that article Mark posted, it sounds very intriguing now. So, I will have to make immediate time. Especially what you say here: The main thing I derive from Kirby’s article is there hasn’t emerged yet any coherent philosophy to carry the ball forward. Which means that until that happens, formulations that may go back ten years or longer are still state-of-the-art.

    And thanks Roger, I forgot my questions and I have to get back to your other post, too. I am a bit behind. Also, my nephew may come for the last week of summer vacation and in that case I will be reading Siddhartha with him (for school), which would put Eco on hold for a week.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Deby,

    I just responded to the comment you left on my weblog, and I thank you. I didn’t realize, by the way, that you’ve already posted here: consequently, I invited you to join the BC community, so ignore that part, because you’re here already. (Mind you, your own article wasn’t posted with the same name, so I thought there were two different persons. Sorry!)

    And I didn’t mean to hijack your site. It’s just that conversations on these threads can go anywhere, which is no reflection on your writing or lack of interest: it’s just the way things are here, and as you shall see, it’s all to the good.

    I haven’t read your piece yet, but I will comment as soon as possible. And again, sorry for the misunderstanding.

    Roger

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Forget Mark article for now; I think it presupposes too much. But feel free to call anytime. If no answer, try again. Evenings are best.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Roger,

    Well, I read it. I think it’s interesting. In general, it’s too far removed from how I normally think about things to comment on it at present. I’d have to let it age for a time. There may be some relevant ideas in there to further my thinking, but they would have to just coalesce in the future…like in an insight.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    I finished your article Deby. Interesting take from someone on the scene.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    That’s what I meant in that it presupposes too much.

    I’m gonna have to lay out for you the basic concepts first — i.e., the terms of the discourse — and identify the key issues and points of disagreement. Meanwhile, I’ll do best on whatever questions you might have.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    OK, Cindy. I sent you the first in the series.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    I haven’t read your piece yet, but I will comment as soon as possible….

    Deby, like I said, the navel-smelling “intellectuals” don’t care about what you write. This is just another discussion board for their agendae, whatever they happen to be at the moment.

    I’d appreciate updates on Argentina and the power grabbing female dog (sorry, I meant president) and her antics….

    Blessings from Samaria,
    Ruvy

  • http://www.tangospam.typepad.com Deby -TangoSpam

    Well I never thought about using someone else’s blog to actually write another mini-blog to drive people to my blog. But I guess if you really want people to read your blog it is a way to do it. You write whatever you want on someone else’s blog and that way people who read the comments will maybe go to your blog….who has time..boring..boring…boring…

  • zingzing

    ruvy: “Deby, like I said, the navel-smelling “intellectuals” don’t care about what you write. This is just another discussion board for their agendae, whatever they happen to be at the moment.”

    and you just come around to bash people. your shit stinks too, ruven. if you don’t like it, why do you come around?

    deby: “You write whatever you want on someone else’s blog and that way people who read the comments will maybe go to your blog….who has time..boring..boring…boring…”

    for fuck’s sake. your tact is impressive. never go into politics.

    the two of you should start your own vacuum company.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Sorry you feel that way, Deby. I’d say you’re taking it a bit personally.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I have a different account, zing. Ruvy is desperate about making new friends (there aren’t too many left) before they get on to him. Your thinking?

  • zingzing

    i think he just wants to fling his poop around. as soon as deby here gets on his wrong side, he’ll attack her as well. because everybody hates him, or something.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Perhaps it’s like a dog marking his territory by peeing on the fire hydrant.

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    Actually, Deby, has a fair point. There’s no reason Roger, Mark, and Cindy couldn’t have had their off-topic discussion with each other through email or some other venue other than sheer laziness combined with some bizarre desire to show people they are having highbrow conversations.

  • http://www.tangospam.typepad.com Deby

    Gracias, El Bicho..my point exactly.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    That wasn’t my intent, El Bicho and I’m certain neither is true of Cindy and Mark. It just happened that one comment led to another. I apologized to Deby already, but she keeps on harping on it. In fact, I asked Mark to answer on another thread, and he did. End of story.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    And Ruvy is the shit disturber here. He re-opened the issue which by now should have all but disappeared.

  • Mark

    Beotch, see #26 above. No need to ask twice.

    btw – there is a connection between Argentinian society and the post-industrial and postmodern condition which might have been clarified with a bit more discussion.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I wonder whether the writings of Senor Borges would thrown some like on the matter – not fictiones but journalistic writings.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    light . . .

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    btw – there is a connection between Argentinian society and the post-industrial and postmodern condition which might have been clarified with a bit more discussion

    Then Mark, come down from Mt. Olympus and make the point for us mere mortals. Some folks don’t have patience with religion – and others don’t have patience with bullshit philosophy – until they see the point of it.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    And BTW, if I be allowed to flagellate myself – the desire is not as bizarre as meets the eye. Trying to impress others is a human foible.

    So perhaps Senor El Bicho wasn’t too far off. Guilty, your honor.

  • zingzing

    ruvy: “Then Mark, come down from Mt. Olympus and make the point for us mere mortals.”

    which way do you want it?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Fair point, Ruvy. I won’t if you won’t.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Ah, the Burger King motto – we do it your way. Or did you have something else in mind?

  • http://www.tangospam.typepad.com Deby

    OK Boys, do we all have it?

  • zingzing

    have what?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I think Deby means: “Have we satisfied our primitive, boyish urges, so that now we can get down to business?”

  • zingzing

    of course not.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    There’s no reason Roger, Mark, and Cindy couldn’t have had their off-topic discussion with each other through email or some other venue other than sheer laziness combined with some bizarre desire to show people they are having highbrow* conversations.

    Wow, I am tossed in with the highbrows. Here I was figuring I’m mostly perceived as having a screw loose*. Yay! Do I get to move to Mount Olympus too?

    …and others don’t have patience with bullshit philosophy – until they see the point of it.

    Well that is as good a reason as any for public discourse. How will anyone ever see the point if everyone discusses their ideas via e-mail.

    Here is what I think: We (meaning, all regular BC posters) are here a lot, in everyone’s threads. We just like to discuss things. This is where we come to do that. Natural conversations go off topic (see what zing said in a couple comments above). That’s about it.

    What’s highbrow about philosophy, anyway? (Boring maybe, but highbrow?)

    *I won’t discount that this is likely also true.

  • zingzing

    if anyone tries to put this thread back on topic (actually, i like how the topic of the thread is the nature of the topic of the thread, something which happened because the author and ruvy were bitching about the topic of the thread… it’s their own fault…), i’ll do my damnedest to make sure it veers off course again.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    gotta love a rebel, zing (smooch)…

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    I take back what I said about philosophy, it’s not that it’s boring (well, sometimes it is that it’s boring), but many times it’s just that I don’ get it. It’s built upon previous understanding and I don’t have the background info to understand what’s being discussed completely. And so I can be sure I’m even understanding what I read correctly. It’s like a whole lot of work to get to a simple understanding, that I believe I am able to get elsewhere.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Very informative article, Deby. I wish you were more pointed in your conclusion. What’s the meaning? Mark’s comment comes to mind: Does it fall under the rubric of modern, postindustrial societies?

    You must have read some of Isabel Allende’s novels? Is she on or off? How about Borges? How typical is Argentina of South/Latin American countries? In what sense(s) is she distinct?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    No pain, no gain. But at least you’re being credited, Cindy, with being a high-level intellectual.

    I know it’s not exactly a praise as far as you’re concerned, but look at it this way: it’s better than being a screwball.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Besides, I think you appear to make things more difficult than they really are. Forget about the name “philosophy.” All it is is thinking, thinking in the abstract (and in concrete when necessary), and being able to manipulate symbols and make connections.

    Human mind, besides, is a miracle. What it had taken the greatest lights entire lifetimes, the successors can master in but a fraction of the time. We all stand on the shoulders of giants. And the intellectual that you are, it’s your responsibility to move the ball forward.

    (Somewhat tongue in cheek, because I’m not certain how you feel about it.)

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    Sorry to disappoint Deby and El Bicho but the freewheeling nature of our comments space is a characteristic of Blogcritics that they are going to have to learn to live with – and one of them has already had far too much time to have grasped that fact. Hint: it’s not you, Deby. ;-)

  • Clavos

    to show people they are having highbrow conversations.

    They did?

    Where? When?

  • http://www.tangospam.typepad.com Deby

    Ha! Ha! Clavos! Me encanto!! Your name says it all.

  • Pseudodigi

    Kirby’s “pseudomodernism” article – now three years old – has been superseded by his new book, “Digimodernism” (Continuum). Check it out if you’re interested in his stuff.