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Are Gay Foster Parents More Likely To Sexually Abuse Children?

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Lawmakers in the state of Texas are currently debating whether or not to ban gay couples from adopting foster children. And giving the pro-ban side ammunition in this debate is a study that claims to show that homosexual couples are vastly more likely to sexually molest the children in their care than are heterosexual couples.

One small problem: The study’s supposed “findings” are utter crap.

Story here:

Last week, the Texas House of Representatives passed a child-services bill with an amendment that would make Texas the first state in the nation to prevent same-sex couples from becoming foster parents. The state Senate passed a conflicting bill without that measure, and the two bodies are debating how to proceed.

The proposed ban attracted national media attention, and several “pro-family” groups seeking to drum up support for the bill have been circulating some troubling stats about gay parents. Among the most striking, stated during a CNN program: children in foster homes with same-sex parents are 11 times as likely to be sexually abused as those with heterosexual parents.

To get on CNN, that number snaked through a twisting path, from a little-noticed Illinois study published by an antigay scientist/activist in a psychological journal, to several conservative Web sites, to, finally, the attention of a Texas activist who presented her misinterpretation of the study on national television, essentially unchallenged. It’s a textbook example of how flawed numbers can gain national attention if advocates work hard enough — especially when there aren’t widely-known conflicting estimates.

I’ll start at the end of the number’s path and try to unravel it to the source. Cathie Adams, president of the Dallas-based Texas Eagle Forum advocacy group, appeared April 21 on CNN in a debate segment about the proposed Texas law. Her designated sparring partner was Randall Ellis, executive director of the Lesbian/Gay Rights Lobby of Texas. “We also have got to look at research that does show that children in same-sex couple homes are 11 times more likely to be abused sexually,” Ms. Adams said during the live segment. “And I think that that is not an issue that can be ignored. It is a proven fact and that was a research study done in the state of Illinois that has not, as the state of Texas has not, even asked that question.”

“That’s a bold statement,” said CNN anchor Kyra Phillips, who gave Mr. Ellis a chance to respond. At first he called Ms. Adams’s assertion “completely uncredible” and “completely absurd,” but later he conceded he hadn’t heard of the study before. Ms. Phillips didn’t revisit the claim.

Ms. Adams told me that her source for the claim was an article she had read on the conservative site WorldNetDaily, about a study published in February by Paul Cameron, chairman of the Colorado Springs, Colo.-based Family Research Institute, a group that says homosexuality is a major public-health threat. In the journal Psychological Reports, Dr. Cameron analyzed cases of sexual abuse committed against foster children and children in subsidized adoption homes, as reported to Illinois’s Department of Children and Family Services from 1997 to 2002. There were 270 reports, and 34% of those were same-sex in nature: committed by a male adult against a male child, or a female adult against a female child. Dr. Cameron called those homosexual acts of abuse, and, citing several studies, including a joint report by the University of Michigan and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, concluded that gays make up between 1% and 3% of the adult U.S. population. “Thus, homosexual practitioners were proportionately more apt to sexually abuse foster or adoptive children,” Dr. Cameron wrote.

This required several leaps of logic, some of which I’ll discuss later. The biggest is that Dr. Cameron had no data about the makeup of homes in which the Illinois children were abused; indeed, a state DCFS spokeswoman told me the agency doesn’t record whether households are same-sex. It’s possible that much of what Dr. Cameron calls homosexual abuse occurred in what would be considered heterosexual homes.

Yet Ms. Adams simply divided 3% into 34% to get her 11 number. When I asked her about this discrepancy between what the study found and what she said, she replied, “I believe I didn’t have that articulated as well as I should have.” But she also said it seems unlikely that abuse would be homosexual in nature yet committed by an apparent heterosexual. “It just requires more explanation than what you can do in soundbites,” she said.

[…]

Besides his lack of data about same-sex couples in Illinois, researchers pointed out Dr. Cameron’s flawed assumption that the gender of pedophiles’ victims correlates to adult sexual attraction; that he applied nationwide data on homosexuality to a predominantly Chicago-based population of foster homes; and that he cited many of his own studies, including two previous ones that attempted to calculate the proportion of sexual abuse that is same-sex based on small sample sizes of six and 25 cases of abuse, respectively.

[emphasis mine]

Now, I don’t think anyone here would label me as some sort of radical gay-rights activist. But I am most certainly honest. And that trait of honesty compels me to point out that any arguments based upon this highly-flawed study are totally bogus.

Perhaps this is an issue worthy of serious debate. And perhaps the pro-ban side has some valid arguments to make. But this ain’t one of them, unless they’ve got some legitimate research to back up this incredible claim.

And apparently, they don’t.

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About RJ

  • http://www.ralliance.org/Cameron.html Mike in Texas

    Thanks for bringing that article up.

    For those not familiar with Paul Cameron’s long history of fraud, there’s a lot more information here.

    http://www.ralliance.org/Cameron.html

  • Dawn

    I think the entire foster care system is in serious need of overhauling. There are plenty of people who would make excellent foster parents, but this whole payment system is what draws out scumbags and abuse to already abused and emotionally distressed children.

    I have always advocated (and my mother agrees having spent plenty of time in the system as a child) that what needs to be done is create a state monitored “orphanage” where children are cared for by professionals who are paid to teach, love and protect the children in their care.

    It is possible and would go a long way to eliminate the abuse so many children face in the foster care system.

    And those people could just as easily be gay individuals or hetero. Anyone who is willing to show the patience and love needed to care for someone’s elses children should be given the equal chance of doing so – because it’s not an easy job, but certainly a worthwhile one.

  • http://www.bhwblog.com bhw

    The biggest shame of what’s happening in TX is that gay couples have already been a part of the foster care system there, some of them for years. This change in TX isn’t happening because of some newly discovered problem with those gay couples — it’s simply a push by the homophobic community in TX to change the law for no apparent reason except that *they* don’t like gay couples being near children.

    It doesn’t matter that their foster system needs these couples and has been successfully relying upon them for years. What matters is that they’re GAY. And that’s it.

    Thanks for pointing out the misinformation being spouted, RJ.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    I saw a clip of the crazy woman who’s promoting this pogrom on a news show where the interviewer just nailed her dead on the Cameron ‘study’. I can’t imagine worse methodology. With his methods I could probably prove that heterosexual couples are using children in satanic rituals.

    Dave

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    Thanks, RJ, for pointing out the obvious.

    I pointed out recently that these attacks on my community from the Right, has disasterous consequences. I tried to document that there is a correlation between conservative leaders aligning with extremists and the increasing oppression that my community must live under.

    It all gets dismissed as me being a paranoid liberal attacking conservatives and Christianity, but I am a baptized Christian myself. And it’s maddening because nobody clearly read the post, and if they did, they would have seen that I did not attack Christianity or it’s ideology, and I did not attack the conservative movement. It wasn’t about attacking the privitization of Social Security or if we should have invaded Iraq. And it was NOT about the moderate conservative CHristian. It was about extremism and it got dismissed by those who did read it as paranoia. But when people disseminate misinformation, such as that which you pointed out, RJ, there are consequences that my community must live under. Throughout American history (and probably world history) there has always been a direct correlation between where the conservative/liberal pendulum swings in this country and our own safety.

    Today even in the liberal bay area, acts of bias (ranging from verbal harassment to murder) are up against gay people. source

    Nice thing to wake up to, with your morning coffee, huh? But that’s not all the headlines I get to see this a.m. There are threats against teachers in Marin county.

    And I’ve documented many other instances, in the other thread.

    The fact is that in 96 percent of U.S. counties, at least one child is being raised by a gay or lesbian couple, according to Census figures analyzed by UCLA researcher Gary Gates. source- Children with gay parents talk about their families.

    It’s sad because to many people the thought of a theocracy or of oppression is of government mandated laws that attack people. But no, that isn’t what is needed to live in fear for your safety. And it’s also sad that so many people can’t see that a person can live in a house and be free to live their life without oppression, fear and tyranny of the majority, and that person can live RIGHT NEXT DOOR to a family who IS oppressed, who receives death threats, and who lives in fear for their safety FROM the majority. Shit, sometimes I wonder why I bother, it can seem like nobody gets it, nobody cares sometimes.

    After all, on that other thread, when I documented WITH FACT that pandering to extremists costs lives, the only honest response I got to that was “I’m willing to be tolerant of some pandering to Christian extremists for political purposes without damning those who do it”. Oh well, I guess since they are gay and lesbian lives, or lives of illegal immigrants, then it’s okay. What else am I to conclude?

    Anyway, thanks RJ, for pointing out the obvious.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    The reason it seems like no one gets it, Steve, is that most of us live in communities where we don’t see the same persecution which you do. Frankly, I find it bizarre that you encounter so much persecution. Same sex parents are a dime a dozen here in Austin and no one raises an eyebrow and you never hear about death threats. I suspect that the same is true of any big city. People either don’t care or mind their own business. That doesn’t mean that we think your experiences of persecution aren’t real, but not sharing those experiences or even observing them in our local communities we find it hard to relate. It’s even hard to project ourselves into your situation with our imaginations because that kind of persecution defies all reasonable logic.

    Dave

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    Frankly, I find it bizarre that you encounter so much persecution.

    But that is the primary difference, I guess between my liberal humanitarianism and your elistist pig philosophy. It isn’t about ME. It’s about my community. When it comes to social agendas, I’m not in it just for selfish myself. Because I personally have not received a death threat in 20 years, that negates the crisis?

    There’s no less than 30 active hate groups in Texas, and it seems that in Austin, Texas sexual orientation is not covered in hate crime reporting anyway.

    I’m glad for you though, that in your world everything is peachy. I’m sure everybody is sharing everything with you, anyway. I bet they realize they get a lot of ground covered in doing so, Dave.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    should have written ‘my selfish self’.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    oops. that first link, links to here! It should link to here instead.

  • http://www.templestark.com Temple Stark

    That’s just unmitigated ridiculousness. Those same sex parents in Austin (the unholy site of Betterthantherestofus) have just been told they can’t adopt or take in foster children. I think if you talked to some of them I think you might start “getting it.”

    And I think today they just got a whole new level of “what’s next for me?” stress that they didn’t need.

    And RJ – good on ya for going against the grain. Surprised the hell out of me. I thought it was a post by SteveS until the tenor of the comments “confused” me.

  • Shark

    I know pickin’ on Texas as the capital of racist, homophobic, right-wing Christoid fanatics is like shootin’ fish in a barrel, but sometimes, ya gotta put some whupass on the stereotypes.

  • Shark

    *And don’t forget:

    for every DaveNalle, there is a Shark.

    [insert liberal, kinda unamerican smiley face here]

  • http://www.templestark.com Temple Stark

    No – Texas is an amazing place if for nothing else but the sheer beauty of the non-city areas. No place that big can be any one thing.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    just for clarification, I am constantly linking to sources in most everything I say. So I don’t see how people can not see what I see, unless they gloss over my comments/posts with already preconceived notions and have an automatic dismissal response already subconsciously formulating in their minds.

    I was not trying to portray Austin as worse than anywhere else, but rather just like everywhere else. No, Dave, I am not afraid to go out in public with my daughter, nor am I afraid to introduce my partner as my partner. Most gay people aren’t, but there is also a higher rate of agoraphobia in my community than elsewhere.

    (to be fair – actual sentence says ‘more prevalent’, but doesn’t clarify against what).

    You dismiss reports of hate crimes being on the rise, just because nobody’s shared with you?

  • Shark

    TempleS: “Texas is an amazing place if for nothing else but the sheer beauty of the non-city areas.”

    Current “non-city areas” as one speeds along the ubiquitous 20 lane concrete interstate looking out the window:

    Lowes…
    Home Depot…
    100 acre Storage Facility…
    Chilis…
    15 Thearter Mega-Plex…
    Starbucks…
    200 acre Parking Lot…
    Asthma Clinic…
    Lowes…
    Home Depot…
    100 acre Storage Facility…
    Chilis…
    15 Thearter Mega-Plex…
    Starbucks…
    200 acre Parking Lot…
    Asthma Clinic…
    Lowes…
    Home Depot…
    100 acre Storage Facility…
    Chilis…
    15 Thearter Mega-Plex…
    Starbucks…
    200 acre Parking Lot…
    Asthma Clinic…
    Lowes…
    Home Depot…
    100 acre Storage Facility…
    Chilis…
    15 Thearter Mega-Plex…
    Starbucks…
    200 acre Parking Lot…
    Asthma Clinic…
    Lowes…
    Home Depot…
    100 acre Storage Facility…
    Chilis…
    15 Thearter Mega-Plex…
    Starbucks…
    200 acre Parking Lot…
    Asthma Clinic…
    Lowes…
    Home Depot…
    100 acre Storage Facility…
    Chilis…
    15 Thearter Mega-Plex…
    Starbucks…
    200 acre Parking Lot…
    Asthma Clinic…
    Lowes…
    Home Depot…
    100 acre Storage Facility…
    Chilis…
    15 Thearter Mega-Plex…
    Starbucks…
    200 acre Parking Lot…
    Asthma Clinic…

    (rinse and repeat)

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    what’s with all the asthma clinics? Have mega corporations and an over-proliferation of vehicles destroyed the air there too?

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    No Steve, Asthma is the new answer to every health and mental and emotional problem kids and also many grown-ups have. If there’s anything wrong with them, if they misbehave, if they aren’t perfectly happy, the answer is now asthma. It’s the ADD of the new millenium.

    To your earlier post bashing Austin. You clearly have NO idea what you’re talking about. What the loony baptists in the state legislature do and what the attitudes are here in Austin are radically different. Austin is arguably one of the 3 most liberal cities in the US. Intolerance just doesn’t fly here at all, in fact things are trending way too much in the other direction. City government is going out of its way to literally invent new issues to feel guilty about and new imagined wrongs to address.

    The overall trend in the nation towards liberalization of attitudes towards homosexuality is undeniable, despite the fact that some anti-gay yahoos got elected to public office while no one was paying attention because it seemed so improbable. The ship will right itself soon enough.

    >>You dismiss reports of hate crimes being on the rise, just because nobody’s shared with you?< <

    The reason more hate crimes are being reported is that 20 years ago there was no such thing as a hate crime to report. The crimes were still there, but no one was aware that there could be such a thing as a hate crime to be reported as something different from a regular crime. Back then crime was crime and it was generally pretty hateful. Now we have a heightened sensitivity to so-called hate crime, so it gets reported and recorded as such when it never did before. It's similar to the phenomenon with abducted children. More children aren't being abducted today statistically, but enormously more abductions are making the national news so everyone thinks it's happening more.

    >>But that is the primary difference, I guess between my liberal humanitarianism and your elistist pig philosophy. It isn’t about ME. It’s about my community. When it comes to social agendas, I’m not in it just for selfish myself.< <

    I'm not in it just for myself either. I see myself as an everyman, and if something makes my life better then it ought to do the same for anyone in even vaguely similar circumstances - like living in America.

    >> Because I personally have not received a death threat in 20 years, that negates the crisis?<<

    It suggests that the crisis is less of a crisis than it was, yes. I must be spoiled from living in too tolerant an environment. I suspect that when you have a strong gay community these things are less common, and I do tend to extrapolate from my own experience. My so-called ‘elitist pig’ attitude is to assume that since none of the gay people I know are being persecuted it’s not happening as much elsewhere either. I know that’s not entirely true, but it does suggest that things are a bit better today than they were 20 or 30 years ago when I did see persecution around me.

    Even you admit that things have gotten better, but you’re part of the ‘glass half empty’ school, like so many leftists, so it will not only never be good enough, it’s not even better enough to be considered progress.

    Dave

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    No Dave, I think we have come so far, so fast since stonewall. I think that because it was so fast, this is partly to blame for this paranoia of the right, of losing their religious beliefs, so they are pushing back against our progresses. It’s not that I see we haven’t made gains, we have, it’s that I see that the gains we have made since stonewall having been eroding since Bush became President, because of the Religious Right activity that became more pronounced at that time.

    So your analysis of the hate crime rising, is that the reporting is getting better, more law enforcement are starting to track it and data is being perfected so that it’s giving a more accurate representation, rather than just rising. So by your analysis, the number of hate crimes is already sky high, just unreported. That could very well be true, and if so is far more shocking and damning than the claim I made. But for you it makes the situation better, not even more urgent?

    I consider we have made great progress, Dave. I’m gonna make sure we keep it.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    We all gotta try and put yourself in the shoes of another sometime. Imagine you were sitting at the dinner table with your wife and kids and on the tv in the background there was someone saying that all Austin Texas men who work from home are perverts who are prone to molest their children. But also imagine that it’s not just a lone wacko statement that goes unchallenged, but that the sentiment is played over and over again in numerous topics and that you know millions of Americans buy into it, because they are prone to agree with it anyway. It’s not always easy to disregard that there are ripple effects we all have to live with, in regards to this. And it’s not American to have to live with such trash passing for news anymore.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    should be: and put ourselves.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >>No Dave, I think we have come so far, so fast since stonewall. I think that because it was so fast, this is partly to blame for this paranoia of the right, of losing their religious beliefs, so they are pushing back against our progresses. It’s not that I see we haven’t made gains, we have, it’s that I see that the gains we have made since stonewall having been eroding since Bush became President, because of the Religious Right activity that became more pronounced at that time.< <

    I agree that you've aggravated the religious right, but then they deserve to be aggravates - at the very least. I don't think that their attempt to strike back will work in the long run. Just like the Schiavo case it will backfire on them and lead to an even more rapid errosion of their support. People are too sensible to fall for the rhetoric of hate en-masse for any long term.

    >>So your analysis of the hate crime rising, is that the reporting is getting better, more law enforcement are starting to track it and data is being perfected so that it’s giving a more accurate representation, rather than just rising.< <

    Accurate enough. And I think I could prove this pretty easily statistically.

    >> So by your analysis, the number of hate crimes is already sky high, just unreported. That could very well be true, and if so is far more shocking and damning than the claim I made. But for you it makes the situation better, not even more urgent?<<

    Actually, my full scenario is that the number of ‘hate crimes’ is declining gradually and has been for a long time, but the reporting/awareness of such crimes is increasing faster than the actual instance of them is declining. One example is worth a thousand words. Think about lynchings – the quintessential hate crime. Back in the 50s they were a relatively common occurance, but they died out more or completely by the 70s. Then the James Byrd case came along and got more publicity then every lynching in the 50s and 60s put together. The public perception was that hate crimes were out of control, but the reality was that it was a freak event, which ran directly counter to the actual societal trend. It was this atypical event which launched the current concern with hate crimes, but the reality is that the Byrd case stood out not because it was typical of a body of hate crimes at the time, but because it was unique and atypical. If hate crimes were a regular occurance in the 1990s, then Byrd’s death would have gone relatively unnoticed.

    Dave

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    What about the whole HIV/tears thing that Frist is tied up in? It’s all just about misinformation anymore, from the fundies. And they are currently running the Republican party, Washington and the nation. My fear is, why aren’t more people concerned?

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Hey, Frist is a doctor, surely he’s right about HIV and tears? After all, doctors are never wrong, right?

    This silly misinformation is just a sign of desperation if you ask me. And it’s certainly nothing new.

    Plus, the HIV/Tears thing works to your advantage – now you have to be nice to gays or they might cry and give you AIDS.

    Forgive my lighthearted take on it, but I find it all somewhat ridiculous.

    Dave

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    If hate crimes were a regular occurance in the 1990s,

    In 2001 there were 9,730 hate crimes reported by the F. B. I. in its Uniform Crime Reportsource

    so if hate crimes are decreasing, there were what, 20,000 hate crimes a year in the 90’s? No offense, I can see how this isn’t a concern to a white heterosexual suburban American male, I’d like those odds too.

  • SFC SKI

    Shark, you must not live far enough west:

    truckstop
    ….
    cow
    ….
    ….
    oil well



    ‘nother truckstop




    (wake up)

    turn in road

    civilization (of a sort)
    multiplex
    fast food joints
    and so on

  • HW Saxton

    Shouldn’t any act of violence committed
    by one person against another person be
    considered a hate crime? Irregardless of
    their color,gender,sexual orientation?
    It seems hateful to me.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    HW, the purpose of a hate crime is more to address the terrorism that a community feels rather than what the victim goes through.

    If a person is murdered for cash for drugs or something, we all shake our heads and hope he’s caught, but we don’t feel singled out.

    If a person is murdered because he was Jewish or gay, then members of that community live in terror. Hate crimes also usually take into account the prevalent atmosphere around the crime.

    This is why Ashcroft called the 9/11 attacks the worst hate crime in history. People who weren’t in the middle of it, such as the rest of America still feel victimized.

    I think I’m beginning to understand that many people cannot see the concept, have never experienced hatred on such a level directed at any social group they might identify with. Must be nice. Unfortunately it doesn’t negate the fact that it exists and thankfully we have hate crime laws to address the terrorism aspect of a hate crime.

  • HW Saxton

    I guess I was overgeneralizing a little.
    I appreciate your explanation and your
    non-patronizing answer Steve. Thank You.

    And for what it’s worth, I hope that you
    or that anyone else in your community is
    never on the recieving end of a crime
    like this.I hope that does not sound too
    lame.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    Doesn’t sound lame, HW and I wasn’t trying to be patronizing to anyone on this thread. My tone is so misunderstood I have long given up trying to clarify it.

    I was the victim of a hate crime, which I have talked about before. I was assaulted by 6 or more men, with baseball bats and some type of brass knuckles contraption, but it was back in the 80’s. I suffered a cracked skull, a concussion, a broken nose, bashed up teeth and scars, although very small ones, that I live with today. All this occurred while Revelations was being quoted to me. Revelations, go figure.

    When I was on the emergency room table, and the police came out to fill out their report, they just laughed in my face. It was that incident with the police, rather than with the wing nuts that changed my whole perception forever. You cannot comprehend the emotional loss you feel, when you realize those who are there to protect you, have no real interest in protecting you. It is up to you, yourself, alone to do so. I have never followed up to even see if this incident has been cataloged along with all the other hate crimes, as I’m sure most victims do the same thing.

    This is why, when people say, ‘oh there’s only been a few thousand hate crimes a year, that’s not so bad’, I will probably react differently than most people. I know that each and every one of those cases is a human being.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    One additional thing the ‘hate crime’ aspect would have addressed back then, if it had existed would have been the economic loss that the business where the incident occurred (parking lot) suffered for weeks after it too.

  • HW Saxton

    Steve S., I know that you were not being
    condescending towards me in your answer.
    It’s just that so many times on this
    site I have asked someone a very simple
    question only to get some smartassed “If
    I have to explain this ONE MORE TIME” or
    some similar answer in return, that I do
    greatly appreciate a normal & respectful
    reply.

    I had never heard your story before. It
    just sickens me though and I am truly &
    terribly sorry that you had to deal with
    something like that. It makes it easier
    to see why you are greatly concerned & I
    can see your point even more clear than
    before about how lucky that some people
    are in that they will never have to deal
    with something like that because of the
    company they keep.

    I have been pulled over numerous times
    by police in many cities for being white
    in a black neighborhood.Harrassed,my car
    searched,verbal abuse etc.The cops will
    always believe that I’m looking for dope
    and hate to accept the fact I’m going to
    visit friends or that I’m on my way to
    a Blues club to go hear some music. So I
    kinda know the feeling, just not to the
    extremes that other people do. My black
    friends get pulled over for driving in
    my neighborhood as well sometimes. It’s
    so f***ing stupid.

    It’s doubly sickening about the incident
    that happened to you,when the response
    by the police is figured in. Surprising,
    no.Sickening,yes.Don’t some large cities
    other than San Francisco have openly gay
    officers now? It would be interesting to
    hear what they’ve been put through in
    regards to their sexuality, considering
    what a “Good Ol’ Boys” club most police
    depts. are. My stepfather was a police
    detective in San Diego where I grew up &
    I’ve seen and I’ve heard these guys talk
    amongst themselves.Openly racist,facist,
    hateful misanthropes a lot of them were.
    Not all but,enough to know there’s a big
    and very real problem.

    Anyway, I just wanted to clear up the
    fact that I knew you were not being at
    all condescending towards me and to say
    thanks for the same.
    Harold

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    I do know that in SF and I think LA and San Diego, there are gay police unions. TImes change, but what I went through in the 80’s was what we rebelled against in the 60’s and 70’s (stonewall). Change is slow and I have no idea what the prevalent police mentality is in places in the rural midwest, but I just know that change is slow.

    A big city on the coast and a small town in the middle of the country can be worlds apart still.

  • HW Saxton

    This is very true Steve.Fly over country
    is whole other world apart from the left
    & right coasts & the “Progressive” type
    thinking that is finally starting to
    take hold there.I grew up out west,I’ve
    lived there most of my life and I know
    that if we are considered bastions of
    liberality then the rest of the country
    is living in the f***ing stone age.

  • Shark

    Dr. DaveNalle: “…if they misbehave, if they aren’t perfectly happy, the answer is now asthma.”

    Gawd, you are such a fucking ignorant dick.

    By just about any legitimate standards, asthma has increased dramatically over the last 30 or so years — and is epidemic in the many parts of the US, especially among children.

    Probably due to chemicals and/or air quality, but hey, let the FREE MARKET control air quality, right Dave?

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Let’s see some references Shark. Air quality isn’t the reason – it’s better than it was 30 years ago by a huge margin. So what is the reason for the rise in asthma diagnoses? Let me give you a hint – follow the money. All the new asthma drugs need a market and doctors are eager to help out the drug companies, as usual.

    BTW, what is wrong with you? Why do you respond to every idea that doesn’t fit your preconceptions with fear and hostility? You might want to see a doctor. Asthma might be causing this abnormal aggressive behavior.

    Dave

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    Dave, I agree with the sentiment that a lot of drugs and medical treatment is foisted on people to make money, when it’s really unnecessary. This is just one of the negative consequences of what happens when our health care is operated in a for profit system.

    But diagnosing asthma unnecessarily? I guess I shouldn’t be surprised, but how do people not know if they have asthma or not? It seems like suffocating would be an obvious one to know if you’re experiencing or not. Sometimes I think that not only do the businesses do things unnecessarily for profit, but the consumer will readily do something unnessary too.

  • http://indemnification.blogspot.com -E

    Yes, putting children in foster care and temporary homes is so much better than placing them in a home with a couple that will provide them every luxury they can afford if that couple is gay…. I don’t get it. I think keeping the children out of a loving home is causing more harm to the children in question. And in fact, most pedophiles aren’t homosexual anyway.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    No one gets it, E. The whole issue is only being raised because some idiot legislator wants to get his name in the hometown paper and get himself some prayers in the local baptist churches.

    Dave

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >>But diagnosing asthma unnecessarily? I guess I shouldn’t be surprised, but how do people not know if they have asthma or not? It seems like suffocating would be an obvious one to know if you’re experiencing or not. Sometimes I think that not only do the businesses do things unnecessarily for profit, but the consumer will readily do something unnessary too.<<

    My older daughter has been diagnosed with Asthma, yet while she shows all the symptoms – just about anything is a symptom now – she doesn’t respond to any of the medications they’ve tried, and in fact doesn’t seem to have standard asthma attacks as such either. To me it seems more like seasonal allergies than asthma, but the doctors seem so sure…and yet so wrong with diagnosis after diagnosis.

    Dave

  • http://indemnification.blogspot.com -E

    But people in Austin don’t like it. So it isn’t wanting that local publicity. I mean Bush didn’t even win Travis County.

    But yes, I know that most folks with a brain about them don’t get it- the others just don’t care.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    That’s too bad and I hope the best for her. I know that out here, the emergency rooms are fairly busy in this small town and the Doctors-On-Duty walk-in places always have a 4 or 5 hour waiting time. The majority of these patients are poverty-stricken immigrants who of course cannot pay, but they are brought back again and again for treatments because the corporations will ultimately be paid, just by us. It’s abuse, and it’s not always the fault of the immigrant ‘who just wants free treatment’ like many people believe. It’s the for-profit system.

    My friends tell me stories all the time about how Mexican actors and actresses are kidnapped right off the street, and how if you wear a gold watch or ring in public you will be kidnapped for ransom. If it’s found out down there that you have more than a few hundred dollars, your kids will be kidnapped from school. It’s no wonder people risk their life for a better life in trying to come here. Then they get abused by the system and since they are illegal, they are voiceless to do anything about it. This all doesn’t make illegal immigration right, the answer is in making Mexico treat it’s citizens better. Clearing out the corruption especially in law enforcement. Sorry, but when I think of health care, I think of the situation out here, so that is why I brought that up.

    As it is now, I need dental work over an extended period of time, but the treatment I get isn’t contingent upon the need/health at hand, but upon the yearly cap that the insurance industry decides to dish out to me. The only option before me is already not in my best interest, but the interest of the bottom line. For profit health care sucks.

  • http://indemnification.blogspot.com -E

    I’m not sure how that ultimately ties in with gay foster parents and child abuse? But it seems you paint Mexico to be some huge ghetto that isn’t the case for the entire country.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    it’s not, it’s off topic. Of course that’s not the entire country, but as I pointed out, it’s what my friends tell me it can be like.

  • http://indemnification.blogspot.com -E

    HAHA ok, just making sure I wasn’t missing something I should have been catching on to in terms of it being related.

    As far as Mexico being like that- anywhere can be like that. I think people can choose to experience places in a certain way or just reflect on some experiences for anything. And I think that is related to the topic at hand- and how people choose to represent “studies” that “prove” homosexuals are more likely to abuse children. They take a few examples of the situation and apply it to the whole, completely disregarding the fact that it is actually not the common experience.

  • http://www.templestark.com Temple Stark

    The Texas House passed it. It isn’t just one crank legislator. It can’t be dismissed as such.

  • http://indemnification.blogspot.com -E

    Right, we have a lot of crank legislators- I mean do I really need to go over a list of other “famous” Texan legislators? It is a Red State even if Austin is a very very Blue City. It is rather odd to have the capital of a conservative state in a liberal city because there are such conflicts in opinion.

  • http://indemnification.blogspot.com -E

    However, that being said, many Texas Republicans are backing away from it and many think that despite being passed that it will not become law making Texas the only state prohibiting gay couples from being foster parents.

    The Texas GOP leaders including Gov. Perry think it is flawed enough that it would hurt a broader initiative to overhaul the TX Dept of Child Protective Services.

    Many also think that because a similar law was found unconstitutional in Arkansas, that it would be struck down if made into a law in Texas.

    The representative who proposed the ban doesn’t even want to discuss the issue anymore.

    That being said, many think that Talton’s amendment to the CPS bill will be dropped in whatever version the state house and senate come to agree on.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    I have a question. Since we can see that the Religious Right uses false data like RJ points out, and that they are pushing discriminatory policies like the foster parent ban, which people agree will most likely fail, why does this not call into question their tactics in other ideologies? Like Schiavo/right-to-die or the right to choose, or issues about religion in public schools?

    If you can see them use misinformation in ‘our’ case, why does that not call into question all that they do?

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    My point was that it originated with a crank legislator – they do this all the time – float out some insane legislation to please a special constituency. It’s just that this time it got attached to a very much needed piece of legislation and no one gave it a second look until it passed – almost two weeks ago now. It passed by an enormous margin, btw – 135-6, which means that house Democrats overwhelmingly voted for it, which suggests it wasn’t closely looked at.

    The bill it was attached to passed the Senate without this provision, and will be resubmitted to the Senate, which after all this publicity ought to at least be aware of what they’re voting on. Someone introduces an amendment like this every year and it never gets out of committee, but this year the sponsor snuck it onto the bill after it left committee, and it managed to slip by.

    It’s very likely the amendment will die a quiet death in the Senate. Other anti-gay bills have not fared well, though there were plenty of them. The same guy who sponsored this amendment also had a bill to ban gay marriage – which ironically is already banned in Texas, and another to ban gay adoption which seems not to be going anywhere, plus a bill to make any kind of civil union illegal. None of this stuff will end up becoming law.

    He got his shot at this one because our CPS system needs an overhaul so desperately. It’s almost as bad as the system in Florida. But the estimated cost of dumping gay foster parents is about $8 million, and Senators aren’t going to stand for that. We need more foster parents, not fewer.

    Dave

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    Quick follow-up to that last. Here’s the San Antonio Express News’s take on the snowball’s chance in hell of this bill making it through the Senate:

      “The anti-gay proposal, introduced last week by Rep. Robert Talton, R-Pasadena, is opposed by all five senators on the conference committee overseeing reforms to the agencies that protect abused and neglected children and adults, according to Sen. Jane Nelson, R-Lewisville, author of the Senate’s reform legislation.

      The amendment needs a majority from each chamber on the conference committee. Aside from Hupp, the House has not named its members.

      Talton has stopped answering questions about his amendment.”

    Dave

  • sydney

    Oh boy, this article is like RJ’s pretending to be objective.

    I think Steve S said it best when he said “thanks for stating the obvious”.

    What the hell is going on in America when were debating archaic, puritanical bills like the one mentioned in the article. We don’t need to look at that study to say its fucking bogus. We use our common sense and say ‘we got a couple of ignorant, Christian fanatical bigots on our hands here… tryin’ to pass a FEAR bill through.’

    The fact is, RJ, that your willingness to try and take the premise of this bill seriously, shows you up as ignorant.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Sydney, I think you’re being really unfair to RJ. His article clearly exposes the fraudulent nature of the data supposedly supporting this bill and does it in a very fair way. I think Steve S would even agree with me on that.

    Dave

  • sydney

    I agree DAve.

    RJ does his part here, but what really troubles me is his willingness to take a this sort of BILL seriously.

    If someone says;

    “Gays are vastly more likely to sexually abuse children in their care than are heterosexuals”

    … a red flag should go up in your mind.

    There has been plenty of evidence over the years to suggest this sort of stereotyping is ridiculous. The fact that RJ and other Americans are still even debating the issue suggests to me this country is making a return to the dark ages.

    Granted, RJ found the study to be bogus, still, there is no need to pretend this debate is has any relevance. This is clearly just a ‘HATE BILL’ and it needs to be struck down before going any further. End of story.

    Instead RJ’s article reads as if, though the study was bogus, there still may be evidence out there to support these claims. ya right… despite the all the evidence that suggest there IS NO EVIDENCE to support these claims.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    I’m proud of RJ in this instance. I wouldn’t have expected this from him.

    Sydney, you and I know the whole data is just flawed, true. There are many conservative Christians out there who don’t know better and will give it face value until it is broken down and proven false. If we were to just pat dismiss it without putting it through the shredder, then we would actually be substantiating it to many people.

    In this day and age, I still have to break down and analyze as a legitimate topic for discussion, my second class citizenship anyway. It’s not an automatic given that I am entitled to equality as our political science class taught us in school. :-)

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    sydney I agree a red flag should go up, but for far too many people it still does not.

    And I completely agree with you that we are going back into the dark ages. I do think that this culture war will become bloody, possibly even turning into a race war before things get better.

    And no, I’m not all gloom and doom Dave. I still have faith in humanity.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    I think what might have focused RJ on this amendment is that unlike the similar bills introduced in virtually every state legislature this year, this particular one actually came relatively close to becoming law – theoretically it still could become law, though there’s every indication it’s not going to happen.

    What RJ doesn’t explore are the unique circumstances which made this possible, because there was this opportunity to attach it as an amendment to the CFS reform bill, which lent it some vote gathering power it wouldn’t have had otherwise. And it’s still getting voted down in committee in the Senate, so file it as a creepy little legislative anomaly and forget about it.

    >>And I completely agree with you that we are going back into the dark ages. I do think that this culture war will become bloody, possibly even turning into a race war before things get better.<<

    Steve, you remain insane. What races do you think are going to be involved in this race war? Blacks and Whites agaisnt Mexicans? The Straight race vs. the Gay race? The Christian Race vs. the Secularist Race? The big issues of our time don’t break down along racial lines, so a race war is the least of our worries.

    Dave

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    A gay race? A Christian Race?

    who’s the one who can no longer communicate because his side has completely rewritten the definitions of ages-old words?

    you think moveon, Howard Dean, Kos, Al Gore and others are insane. I am in good company.

  • sydney

    Kos the Rapper?

    I can’t imagine Dave Deeming him insane, or even bringing him up in convo…

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S
  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    Steve, you brought up the race war subject. I’m just trying to figure out what races you’re talking about, since none of the major issues we’ve been discussing seem to be at all race based.

    And I don’t think Moveon, Kos or Gore are insane. The jury is still out on Dean. Moveon is a socialist front organization, Kos is a disinformation tool of the extreme left, and Gore is an amiable, naive dupe.

    Dave

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    Dave, a lot of reasons are brought up in regards to vigilantism on the border. You’ve seen it yourself, from disease to crime, yet the northern borders are just as receptive to such element as the south.

    The true purpose of the vigilantism is economic, just like the true cause of illegal immigration is.

    Only when we can all get over our paranoia and work together reasonably, will the problem be solved. Yes, I’ve seen the comic books, they are horribly wrong. Bush is just not the best politician we have, when it comes to diplomacy and working out a deal with the Mexican government. And that government is corrupt, or so the people who come here tell me. They see Vicente Fox as their own Imelda Marcos. Apparently he spends hundreds of thousands on bedding, while his citizens go hungry. That’s what they tell me. They tell me if a person goes into government and is not corrupt, he will be killed.

    I don’t know if that’s the word on the streets down there, meaning the sentiment of all, or what. I know I believe people with firsthand knowledge on something first, and someone who sits on a CNN soundstage quoting an-easily-proved-as-unsubstantiated falsehoods doesn’t reach me anymore.

    Dave, why do entire villages down there worship their drug lords? It’s because the drug lords do what the government does not. Provide social services and programs for the needy, to help those who are hungry. There are so many people down there, the job situation is dismal. People come here looking for work, and for medical treatment and stuff, which their nation can’t provide. The answer to the problem is in Mexico, not here. And it is in our national security to address that issue, and it can be done without violence, vigilantism or war.

    Do not brutalize the tired and the poor, yearning to be free.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    Do some research sometime on the Bracero Program. It was a 30 year long program in which America worked with Mexico to allow people to come into this country and work. There was a tax taken out for their retirement. Over 30 years, millions of Mexicans held good jobs and were able to get homes and stuff back in Mexico. Then it came time to retire and that Social Security equivalent wasn’t there. The American government says Mexico has it, the Mexican government says America has it. And millions down there have no retirement and are now in their 60’s and 70’s. There’s so much wrong, I don’t know who’s to blame there. But it’s our problem because we are going through the effects.

    And I just spoke with my friends and stand by my earlier statement that if this vigilantism doesn’t cease, it will turn far worse. I wouldn’t turn to Lou Dobbs to find out that kind of info, he wouldn’t think to see for it.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Steve, as I’ve said before – even in this thread – like Bush (who you seem to support in this for once), I’m all for a well thought out guest worker program. We need the cheap labor and they need the jobs. And anyone who tells you they’re taking jobs away from Americans is either lying to advance a Buchananesque agenda or plain ignorant.

    Dave

  • Eric Olsen

    great job on this RJ – you are honest indeed

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    well this thread did get hijacked from foster parenting, but as sydney points out, it was debunked enough that that topic should be dead here now. Immigration should go back on the other thread, but to address your comment, I don’t know enough about the program Bush offers, immigration wasn’t a concern to me until I began to see the rise in vigilantism. ANYTHING has to be better than the solution we are currently implementing.

  • MCH

    “…But I am most certainly honest. And that trait of honesty…”
    – R. J. (Bobby) Elliott, April 30, ’05

    “Kerry voters are fucking communists.”
    – R. J. (Bobby) Elliott, July 31, ’04

  • Anonymous

    I think the cited study is actually evidence that we shouldn’t let foster children live with “heterosexual” couples because they might be made up of closeted gays and lesbians who, like the pathetic dirty priests unable to resist their lusts, use children (who, as people under authority, won’t “out” them) to fulfill their same-sex fornicatory needs.

    We out-and-proud gays are definitely not the ones to worry about.

  • Nick Jones

    Although we’ll never (say never) see eye-to-eye politically, I appreciate your honesty, RJ.

    A note to Dave Nalle: The last time I called Dell for technical help I was routed to someone in The Philipines. The time before that, India. Early in January 2003, 50 of us were assembled in a conference room and told that our jobs were going to Mexico. The CEO told us, “Our first loyalty has always been to our shareholders [i.e., people who are already set for life but want ever higher dividends on their stocks]. We have to let you go, and we will pay you severance if you stay until your separation date. But if you complain, or don’t continue to give 100%, you’ll be out on the street with nothing.” Branson Ultrasonics Corporation, Danbury, CT, January 2003.

    What a humanitarian.

    I realize this doesn’t exactly address your statement about immigrant workers, but Americans are indeed losing their jobs to the non-native born. We will know the day of America’s doom when we see illegals going back to their countries of origin for good jobs.

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    “Kerry voters are fucking communists.”
    – R. J. (Bobby) Elliott, July 31, ’04

    Here’s what you need to do:

    -Buy a dictionary

    -Look up the word “hyperbole”

    -Get back to me

  • Dan

    Well, 270 molestations is a pretty large sample size. If 34% of these are homosexual in nature, then that would seem to lend credence to the possibility that homosexuals are more likely to abuse their charges.

    If Dr. Cameron was using the joint report by the University of Michigan and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention that concluded gays make up between 1% and 3% of the adult U.S. population, one could conclude she was actually being generous. If she would have went with the 1% figure she could’ve found that gays were 34 times more likely to molest their foster children.

    Of course Dr. Cameron’s findings are flawed. I tend to agree with anonymous saying “We out-and-proud gays are definitely not the ones to worry about.” Being up-front and comfortable about ones homosexuality wouldn’t be the sort of profile a homosexual child molester would fit.

    Other variables for a more comprehensive evaluation might include:

    A possible greater likelihood that gays would participate in a foster parent program. It seems likely since gays can’t have biological children together, and qualification for foster care is probably less stringent than adoption. Also gays might empathise with troubled children more since many might have had troubled childhoods dealing with acceptance issues etc. (A higher disproportion of gays in the program would bring the ’11 times as likely’ number down.)

    Child molesters, both hetero and homo, seek opportunities to put themselves in proximity to their victims. I’m thinking that a closeted homosexual child molester would have an easier time gaming the screening process than a hetero child molester.

    Finally, it seems likely that a disproportinate number of foster teens may be struggling with sexual identity issues as well, making them more acceptable targets of homosexual predators.

  • http://indemnification.blogspot.com -E

    Considering how large a phenomenon child abuse and molestation is, less than 300 cases really isn’t that large. And considering that 1/3 of lesbian couples and 1/5th of gay couples raise children, I don’t think it accounts for much at all.

    I am sure I could find 270 people who have been sexually assaulted with a majority being by Catholics. That doesn’t mean that all Catholics aren’t good enough to be a parent. It doesn’t mean that a Catholic is more likely to sexually assault someone than say a Protestant. What it means is that those who sexually abuse another person are sick and twisted independantly of any community they might be a part of.

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    So Nick, is Branson Electronics a landscaping or a construction firm? Hiring a lot of graduates of St. Ignacio’s primary school in Guadalajara there?

    The immigration issue and the outsourcing issue are really not at all related.

    But what about gay and lesbian couples who want to outsource their daycare to india?

    Dave

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    who in the world would use a CDC count as a number representative of the amount of people in a community? WHere do you think the CDC gets their information? From health clinics and high risk areas, they didn’t send a questionnaire to every house in America. Any data from the CDC would deal with health issues to begin with, not population numbers.

    There is so much wrong with what you say, just to start with, you give no proof how you conclude one closet is easier to hide than another. You have no concept of what a closet is, clearly.

    Also you totally disregard situational homosexuality, you know, that would be straight people who molest for power, attraction is irrelevant in those cases. Looking at the federal census numbers for same sex households would show we are quite a bit more than 3%, since many people wouldn’t even bother to fill out the census, or who may not identify as gay, but queer or bi, etc.

    As for your attempt to portray gay people as predators combing through the foster care system, it just shows how all your assumptions are based on wild stretches of the imagination rather than logic. It just so happens that so many kids can end up in foster care because they were abused by the biological parent in the first place. No foster care system is perfect, we can look to Florida news every so often to hear about another kid who got lost in the system, but by and large the foster care system is filled with people with generous hearts who are in it to help the child rather than to fill an empty void because that’s the whole premise of ‘foster’. It’s temporary.