Obama in Berlin: Vision and Values
Published July 24, 2008
There is much tongue clucking amongst the mainstream media gurus in the aftermath of Barack Obama’s speech in Berlin. Was it hubris? Arrogance? Too much from a United States senator, who is a presidential candidate, but not yet (or perhaps never) President of the United States? I say no.
John McCain said when asked about Obama's speech that he would rather give that sort of speech after he became president. (Notwithstanding the fact that McCain recently spoke both in South America and Canada). On the other hand, what a great demonstration to the American voting public, that may have forgotten in the last seven years, of what is possible when an American leader goes abroad and gives a speech.
One of John McCain’s main campaign themes argues that Barack Obama is a foreign policy lightweight. He practically goaded Obama into this Middle East/European tour; and Obama has used this trip to demonstrate to the US electorate (and the world) that McCain is wrong. How Obama plays on the world stage is very much a relevant question, and one that has now clearly been put to rest.
Today’s speech in Berlin did that and more. You say that all he did was make a speech? Where was the meat of his policy? Where were the specifics? Speeches that stir; that promote a vision; that evoke ideas and ideals are sometimes as important as the specifics that come from them much, much later. And in a reality where the US presidency has been shamed and embarrassed by an anti-intellectual, arrogant cowboy, it is refreshing to hear Obama speak to the world simply and passionately about the real ideals that fuel our country.
When was the last time we saw American flags waving amidst cheering throngs in Europe; in the “Old Europe,” the Europe that the Bush administration has derided as practically irrelevant? Obama generated an excitement at the presence of an American leader (albeit not the President) because of the promise he holds and vision he has been articulating. And the promise that through his election the confidence in our country may be regained, within our own borders and across the seas.
- Obama in Berlin: Vision and Values
- Published: July 24, 2008
- Type: Opinion
- Section: Politics
- Filed Under: Culture: Society, Politics: Elections and Candidates, Politics: International, Politics: Policy, Politics: U.S., Politics: War and Terrorism
- Writer: Barbara Barnett
- Barbara Barnett's BC Writer page
- Barbara Barnett's personal site
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Comments on this articleComments
What worries me, Baritone, is that Obama isn't 20 points ahead of McCain. McCain who despite the fact that he claims a superior knowledge and background in foreign policy made yet another gaffe. This time, calling Iraq the first major conflict post 9/11. Huh? What happened to Afghanistan? He just trying to make us forget, since it now appears to be going to heck in a hand basket?
I agree that the current polling numbers are troubling. Given the record low approval ratings of Bush & Co, it seems that Obama should be surging out of site.
Obviously, there are issues and circumstances which may be holding Obama back. His perceived inexperience is a problem, and like it or not, his race is the defining issue for some.
At this juncture, I think the campaign is in a kind of stasis. I don't think we'll see the big guns come out until after the conventions. I believe that the debates will serve to separate the wheat from the chaff. McCain may find it difficult to hold his own against Obama one on one. We'll see.
B-tone
I also think that after the convention, with the debates and the heavy hitting ads, etc., Obama will become more well known.
And you're right that there is an undercurrent of racism (though no one will admit it). We shall see.
The Obama speech reminded me that Europe (and much of the rest of the world) is actually eager for the USA to assume leadership of the world. Bush let that leadership opportunity slip away as he pursued mean goals, i.e., invade Iraq and demean other nations.
The German Consul general spoke at the World Affairs Forum the other night and pointed out that in 2000-2006 the USA invested 4 times as much in Germany as in China and did 3 times as much business. The Bush admin was quite foolish to belittle Europe.
The massive crowd for Obama dwarfed the Reagan crowd of about 20,000 that attended the famous 'tear down this wall' speech.
Bliffle--That's the truth. I think that yes, Europe has been waiting for the USA to step up. Those days of the "old Europe" and "Freedom Fries" were shamefully embarrassing.
Obama has been drawing huge crowds pretty much everywhere he's gone over the last few months. It's difficult to judge how that will translate into votes.
My son who lives about an hour or so north of Berlin intended to go hear the speech, but at the last minute had to work. It would have been difficult for him to get anywhere near the place, though.
It was good to see American flags being waved on foreign soil NOT in flames.
B-tone
I just found this pretty awsome article, The Last Patriot, that sheds some light on the first encounters america had with Jihadist back in the late 1700s. Its a really interesting article worth checking out.
The Osama Obama European tour is just like everything else we've seen from the great Barry so far. Meaningless symbolism and empty rhetoric.
Mccain is the worst possible candidate the GOP could have selected. Watching his campaign being run it seems as if he's purposely trying to lose. There is still a lot of anger toward Bush, the GOP and Iraq. Despite all of this Obama is barely ahead of Mccain in most polls.
Obama is nothing but an empty suit. He's a puppet of George Soros. Soros's money couldn't buy the election in years past but that hasn't deterred him. The mainstream media's love affair with Obama due to the novelty of him being half black and the ineptitude of Mccain and his people has given Soros hope once again that he can install his manchururian candidate.
Oh we'll have change all right........starting with the renaming of every government agency and department. If Obama is installed each department will begin with The People's...
Barbara,
I know that this man inspires you with hope. He should inspire you with dread. His advisers are the closest thing one can get to a pack of Jew-haters without fitting them with jack-boots. The lies come smoothly and eloquently off of his tongue, just like they did in front of AIPAC - but butter would not melt in his mouth.
With Bush, you at least knew you were getting an idiot; I certainly did, and voted for Gore. I sat 2004 out; there was no difference between tweedledee and tweedldeum from the Skull & Bones Society.
But this time round, I'm backing Obama. That's right, I said Obama. He is just what the doctor ordered for us - albeit not for you. When the reservists realize what a Jew-hater the puppets in Jerusalem are kneeling to, they will throw the bastards out. He is Israel's "great black hope" - in so many different ways....
G-d has a sense of humor, indeed.
Shabbat Shalom,
Ruvy
"Mccain is the worst possible candidate the GOP could have selected. Watching his campaign being run it seems as if he's purposely trying to lose. There is still a lot of anger toward Bush, the GOP and Iraq."
Arch--Hey--agreement! The anger towards the GOP and Bush is more than well deserved. The fact that the gap between McCain and Obama is small (at this point) may be due to the fact that it's early and people still don't know Obama. Better the devil you know than the devil you don't, and right now people know McCain much better than Obama, who is still to many in this country an unknown quantity. There is also the race factor, and despite what we may hope to think, race may be a factor.
Ruvy--what can I say except that you are wrong. (So, nu? What else is new?) McCain's team has its Arabists, too. McCain's advisors on the middle east include
Yes, Malley is an advisor, but so are Dennis Ross and Daniel Kurtzer. Brent Scowcroft is among McCain's advisors (yeah, he's really sooo very pro-Israel.)
WhyMe--I know there was music to entertain the crowds before Obama's speech, but really. An all day concert? That's not what DerSpeigel (and that's the source of this in the Right Wing media for this non-story) is reporting. They were there to see Obama. Waving American flags. When Bush was there, there were protests and no american flags. Give me a break.
#9:
"meaningless symbolism and empty rhetoric"--
Symbolism and rhetoric, yes, meaningless and empty, no.
Symbolism and rhetoric are powerful tools in the hands of those who know how to use them to attain their goals. Obama is certainly ahead in symbolism and rhetoric.
And he's right about one thing: it's his generation's turn. McCain seems to know little or understand much that's happened since 1970.
I'm actually concerned by the seemingly unqualified adulation proffered to Obama in Europe. If the Europeans like him that much, IMO his fitness to be our president is thrown into question. Recent (150 yrs.) history has shown us that European aspirations and objective are not necessarily congruent with our own.
Symbolism and Rhetoric are incredibly important tools when trying to change direction; when trying to undo a lot of damage done to our credibility, and trying to regain some of the political capital lost because of the reign of a "with us or against us" cowboy ideologue.
I was just thinking (I know, dangerous, huh?)...when we say of a person "he (or she) is a natural born leader" we're not just talking about intelligence, and we're certainly not (necessarily) talking about specifics--or even a specific point of view. We think of that person's ability to inspire, to rally, to transmit a vision passionately, to articulate ideas. Those skills can be used for good or evil. To forward good or bad policy.
You can disagree with Obama (or as I do--agree--on most things), but he is doubtless someone who is a leader. Can you say that about McCain?
As far as what they've accomplished or what they stand for--what exactly does McCain stand for? His stands on policy issues have moved from moderate to arch-conservative to fit a republican party that has made conservatives like Chuck Hagel (and even Bob Barr) to call it unrecognizable. McCain stands for nothing. Not any more.
"I'm actually concerned by the seemingly unqualified adulation proffered to Obama in Europe. If the Europeans like him that much, IMO his fitness to be our president is thrown into question. Recent (150 yrs.) history has shown us that European aspirations and objective are not necessarily congruent with our own."
Clavos--I think the adulation we're picking up is the sound of relief that reason and leadership might return to the US after a seven year drought. Our interests and the Europeans are different in many ways, but what Obama was saying was that to overcome some of the big (and global) issues we need to work together as allies, dropping the us/them, my way or the highway approach of the current administration. I think that's what the Europeans are heralding.
I have to go to work WhyMe, but here are a few policy tidbits:
* his fight for universal children's health care in Illinois.
* Ability to forge bipartisan bills (in Illinois)such as a law now requiring police interrogations and confessions to be videotaped.
* work on ethics reform in Washington (the bill that lobbyists and special interests are complaining about right now has his name on it).
* His bill to make the federal budget far more transparent and accessible to Americans via the Internet -
*ork with Republicans to lock down nuclear weapons around the world.
To name some...more to come.
I get it, Barbara, but do not agree.
I think it better that we maintain a respectful and polite arm's length distance from our cousins in Europe (and the rest of the world, for that matter). When foreigners begin to imbue one of our presidential candidates with an almost Messianic aura, the alarm bells start clamoring.
All of you better be careful....
...sitting around in this Obama circle jerk, you never know what you're gonna get on your hands!
I really like the fact that he said he wasn't there as a person running for president, he was there as an American citizen, but later on he said it wouldn't be appropriate to visit the troops in the hospital, because it was a campaign trip. He's nothing but a christmas turkey..full of all kinds of shit! Or better yet, a pinata!
Here's the best piece of satire I've seen to date...better than either the Obama cartoon or the McCain cartoon,check it out!
I found it very amusing, maybe you will too!
That's great, Andy! Love that Brit wit.
Why Me is asking a question that, unless one has fairly intimate knowledge of Obama's political history, is not answerable. It's much easier to throw out such a broad question in the knowledge that most people - myself included - are not going to stop life to perform an in-depth study of Obama's accomplishments.
Suffice to say that Obama has surfaced owing to his determination, intelligence, skill and perhaps a good tailor.
Conspiracy theorists are alive and well right here on this thread. Arch and Ruvy see Obama as a puppet of the left and/or the anti-Jewish establishment (whatever the hell that may be.) All I can say to them is prove it. Prove that Obama is a "puppet" of George Soros. Prove that he is a Jew hater, backed by Jew haters. And Ruvy, don't just name names. Prove that anyone you name is also, in fact, a Jew hater. (Of course, it seems that to you anyone who shows any sympathy or empathy toward the Palestinians is, therefore, a de-facto Jew hater - the old "you're either for us or you're against us" bullshit.)
What the fuck is George Bush, if not a puppet of the neocons? What "sustainable change" did Georgie accomplish prior to his presidential candidacy? What did he do to "earn" his place in world politics? Oh, that's right, his daddy was president. Enough said.
What "sustainable change" has John (Wayne Gacy) McCain made during his 20 plus years in public life? Where does John (Wilkes Booth) McCain stand as the presumptive leader of the Republican party? What is his message?
Everyone jumps on Obama for changing his positions yet give good ole "Port-O-Potty John" a pass on all of his shifts to accommodate both the ultra-conservatives and moderates within the party and independents without.
McCain was obviously a good soldier who suffered mightily for his country. But does that earn him a pass now that he is entering his demented years? The man is so out of touch with the world, at times he makes GW look fairly intelligent. Well, that might be a stretch, but still.
What do the Republicans want out of their candidate? It would seem the answer to that is "Dumb and Dumber."
B-tone
Amazing how the dumb guys get elected all the time. Guess we just can't stand the smug elitist liberals who think that Europe should pick our presidents.
ROFLOL @ Baritone!
John Wayne Gacy McCain and John Wilkes Booth McCain! That is a hilarious way to make an excellent point.
Doc? Rose?
RE# 16
WhyMe,
Gee I thought in America your were supposed to earn "your turn" unlike the affirmative action mentality where you are given it.
Gee, I thought America was the Land of the FREE, where we weren't supposed to make some people sit on the back of the bus until 1965, whilst we (the white folks) gorged ourselves at the banquet of private property and educational opportunity.
Affirmative Action was, in part, an attempt at reparation for the grave injustice of missed opportunity we caused. That is what people (who aren't neurotic, insane, or stupid) do when they have injured others. They attempt to repair the relationship.
What version of history are you using to inform your "mentality" WhyThink?
If Obama is elected then we will see if peoples dreams and hopes can make him the president they hoped he would be.
No "smug elitist liberals" believe that Europeans should pick our president. It is however, the smug elitist conservatives who tend to believe that Americans, simply by virtue of the accident of birth, are inherently superior to everybody else.
Germans are, in fact, an extremely intelligent and informed people - probably more so than the average American.
Again, Americans should get over themselves. We are not god's or anyone else's gift to the world. It is the U.S. which has fucked up royally over the past 6 or 7 years, and then just to reinforce our stupidity, we thumb our noses at the rest of the world and, in effect, tell them to "eat cake."
Tell me. What the fuck is an "elitist" anyhow? Do you consider most Democrats to be elitists? What is elitist about being a poor single mother in the ghetto?
Obama is accused of elitism simply because he attended Ivy League colleges. By that standard both Bushes fulfill the definition. Maybe Junior gets a pass because he was only a "C" student, and, therefore, didn't get much of that "east coast elitism" rubbed into his skin. Conservatives give extra "good old boy" points for ignorance.
B-tone
When Obama speaks, looking at one side, saying a sentence, then looking at the other side and saying a sentence, do people watching on TV perceive this as him speaking to the crowd? Realize, each time he looks from side to side, he is going from one teleprompter to the other. He rarely if ever looks straight ahead at the actual audience, although if you didn't know about teleprompters, from the camera angle you'd think he was giving good eye contact.
I think, sadly, the spectacle will excite many, such as Barbara, into thinking that the election of Obama will mean world peace and general unity among our allies. And maybe it will (although technically speaking, we actually do already have good relations with our allies now, including Germany).
The real question isn't whether Obama can titilate crowds with his fanciful speeches here and abroad. It's how he will deal with the situations where we need Germany to side with us on something that they don't agree with. Being president isn't about being popular (except perhaps during the election). It's about being able to make hard choices, and to be able to get your allies to go along with you even if they don't agree.
Barack's recent foray into conservativeship not withstanding, his views are in line with the liberal eurocentric view on many foreign policy issues, so perhaps he won't be is such a position. But then one must wonder whether the liberal eurocentric view is the right policy for the United States. I don't think it is in many cases.
Cindy,
I thought since most of the Obama bashers have elected to take liberties with his name, ie: Osama Obama, Barry Obama, or emphasizing his middle name ala Barack Hussein Obama, etc., that turn about was fair play. To refer to McCain as John "Wayne Gacy" makes no less sense than the Obama name twisters. And the righties always complain about cheap shots. Hell, most of the right wing radio buttheads have made millions from cheap shots for years. Hey, maybe now I can cash in.
B-tone
"Germans are, in fact, an extremely intelligent and informed people..."
...If somewhat linear and rigid in their thinking, and with an undue respect for authority...
Disclosure: My wife's entire family on her mother's side are Germans living and working in Germany; I have met most of them, and known some (including my Mother-in-law) for about forty years, over a series of extended visits there during those years.
Clavos #17: I agree with you that its a bit unnerving. We should never allow ourselves to lose that important grain of mistrust and skepticism as well. But I think it's been such a dry, dry desert, people are just simply excited.
Andy #19--Loved that. Thanks for sharing that bit of Brit (satiric) take on Obama.
Clavos also said: "What the fuck is George Bush, if not a puppet of the neocons? What "sustainable change" did Georgie accomplish prior to his presidential candidacy? What did he do to "earn" his place in world politics? Oh, that's right, his daddy was president. Enough said.
What "sustainable change" has John (Wayne Gacy) McCain made during his 20 plus years in public life? Where does John (Wilkes Booth) McCain stand as the presumptive leader of the Republican party? What is his message?
Everyone jumps on Obama for changing his positions yet give good ole "Port-O-Potty John" a pass on all of his shifts to accommodate both the ultra-conservatives and moderates within the party and independents without.
McCain was obviously a good soldier who suffered mightily for his country. But does that earn him a pass now that he is entering his demented years? The man is so out of touch with the world, at times he makes GW look fairly intelligent. Well, that might be a stretch, but still."
All I can say is thanks for that hitting the nail on the head, Clavos.
B-tone--You are so right. There is nothing inherently "better" in our being Americans other than our supposed values (and I mean those stated in the Constitution). The attitude of the Bush Administration has done damage to our soul as the United State both at home and abroad.
McCain won't fix that. And if "elitist" means someone who looks beyond the white picket fence and out into the world, then so be it. The Republicans, who represent the true elitists, the fraction of one percent of the greatest wealth in this country are the ones we should really be afraid of. Want four/eight more years of this? Fine. Vote for McCain. And what has he done?
WhyMe--I'm not sure what happened to your posts. Anyone?????
Cindy,
Fact is affirmative action set race relations back, and wasn't only not necessary, but damaging, even today, and pedantic. It's kind of repelling for a white woman to be suggesting that African Americans need the white establishment to tilt the scales in order to help out the black man.
It should be illegal to discriminate, and any form of workplace discrimination should be prosecuted, perhaps with jail time but definitely with high fines and penalties. But once those laws and enforcements are in place to ensure equal opportunities for all, that's where it should end.
Business is about one thing, being competitive. People should be hired by what their company defines as meritous behavior, and nothing else.
Moreover, opportunities such as in education, should be afforded to those who work for them regardless of race.
Merit based is really the only way. Why would you suggest that people of different skin colors cannot compete on an equal playing ground purely in terms of merit?
"It's how he will deal with the situations where we need Germany to side with us on something that they don't agree with. Being president isn't about being popular (except perhaps during the election). It's about being able to make hard choices, and to be able to get your allies to go along with you even if they don't agree."
OA--Persuasion and strongarming are two different things. The problem with the present administration is the attitude of "fer us or agin' us." This attitude has been applied to domestically as well as internationally. The fact that Obama is reasonable and open as opposed to arrogant and oppositional might go a long way to forge alliances even when they do not completely agree with us. The default response to Bush has been to return the thumbed nose. We have an opportunity to change the default position. That might come in real handy in facing some of those pricklier international issues.
My posts got deleted TOO! Whats up with that????
An elitist would be someone like you who thinks their shit doesn't stink. You're right and anybody else who doesn't agree with you is just stupid.
An elitist is someone who thinks that the folks that don't vote like them or act like them or think like them are somehow to stupid to know what's good for them.
An elitist is someone who believes that someone who doesn't give a rats ass about who Europe thinks should be the next president of the US believes those same folks feel they are somehow superior to anyone or that it translates into "we are gods!".
An elitist is someone who thinks the US has "fucked up royally over the past 6 or 7 years".
An elitist is someone who really believes that the dumbest person on the planet got elected president of the united states because to many people weren't as intelligent as he or she was when THEY voted for president.
As to your other question, no, not all democrats are elitists, I know a few who voted for Reagan.
So, McCain reading his speeches with his head buried in a piece of paper is better? I don't know what the hell you're talking about.
As noted, this was not Obama's stump speech. It was written specifically for this occasion. Do you really expect Obama, or anyone for that matter, to have memorized such a speech? They all use teleprompters - well, except for McCain who can't quite figure out how they work.
While it's likely true that our interests don't always jibe with those of the European Union, they probably coincide more often than not. I see no sign from Obama that he intends to bend to "Eurocentric" interests in disregard to our own. He does recognize that the U.S. is not the only game in town, and that there is mutual need and mutual benefit to be had in working more closely together in all areas of common interest. He is more likely to reach accords with these countries than Bush & Co. who just gave them ultimatums - our way or no way.
I know we've gotten used to a president who is a "plain talker" - one who rarely uses words having more than 2 syllables. If Obama's "fanciful" speeches are beyond your understanding, perhaps keeping a dictionary and/or a thesaurus at arms length would be helpful - especially if you use them as intended.
Oh, no, I forgot. Real Americans don't need no stinkin dictionaries or thessar, theesa - oh, hell - those other damn thingys.
B-tone
Barbara,
Much as I respect Baritone's opinions and enjoy debating him on these threads, I often do not agree with him, nor he with me.
The lengthy quote you ascribe to me in your #33 is actually Baritone's and in fact does not reflect my opinion.
"Persuasion and strongarming are two different things. "
Perhaps, although rarely in foreign policy. Ever heard the phrase speak softly and carry a big stick?
Besides, show me any strongarming by the bush administration of it's allies. Haven't our traditional allies pretty much done what they pleased in terms of their support of our war in Iraq?
Perhaps Bush isn't persuasive, I'll give you that one. But is Obama saying "America has made it's mistakes" to 200,000 cheering germans persuading them to do anything they don't want, or is it merely an adoption of their view against our own interests? Moreover, who is to say McCain wouldn't be more persuasive given his proven bi-partisan background and foreign policy credentials?
"The problem with the present administration is the attitude of "fer us or agin' us." "
I think you are vastly oversimplfying things Barbara. That's one of the issues I have with the left's platform, it charicatures the GOP views, rather than honestly debate them.
We have relations now, in some cases really good relations, with Russia, China, the Sauds, Turkey, Pakistan and many many other countries, who are sort of in that middle ground of being sort of for us and at the same time against us.
The argument you should be making is that Obama would be better at the diplomacy that already exists with these countries. Of course, then I'd ask you to back that up with something, and enthusiam alone just isn't enough.
So, according to Andy, anyone who did NOT vote for Bush, who is NOT a political conservative - is by definition an elitist. Good to have that settled.
YES, ANDY! THE U.S. HAS FUCKED UP PRETTY MUCH EVERYTHING IT'S TOUCHED SINCE BUSH FIRST PLACED HIS PAMPERED LITTLE ASS IN THE OVAL OFFICE CHAIR!
Tell me. What's better today than the day before Bush took the oath back in 2001? Our security? Our economy? Our reputation? Eight years of the Bush Administration has been a cluster fuck for both the nation and the world in general. McCain offers more of the same.
B-tone
There's an interesting comment from a spokesman for German Chancellor Angela Merkel, made before Obama's arrival, when Merkel was informed that he was coming, and would be making an appearance before the public. It is quoted in Duetsche Welle:
"A spokesman for conservative German Chancellor Angela Merkel said that she had "limited understanding" for the presumptive Democratic presidential candidate's interest in holding a major policy speech in front of Berlin's landmark Brandenburg Gate during his visit at the end of the month.
"It is unusual to hold election rallies abroad," he said. "No German candidate for high office would even think of using the National Mall (in Washington) or Red Square in Moscow for a rally because it would not be seen as appropriate."
I think the comment is dead on.
John Cullinan notes, in National Review Online:
"Obama's speech itself is an unusually restrained and cautious piece of work, crafted for delivery in Berlin and for its impact Stateside. Its aim was to skirt the Scylla of unabashed Europhilia (a la John Kerry) and the Charybdis of American exceptionalism (the Founding Fathers). The result is an intellectual shipwreck."
Cullinan adds:
"Even some American reporters, heretofore Obama's biggest boosters, raised the same concerns about a premature victory lap, as this little colloquy in Politico shows:
'It is not going to be a political speech,' said a senior foreign policy adviser, who spoke to reporters on background. 'When the president of the United States goes and gives a speech, it is not a political speech or a political rally.'
'But he is not president of the United States,' a reporter reminded the adviser.
Indeed."
b-tone,
Really not sure what you are talking about. And have I ever said John McCain is a great speaker? In fact it's been universally agreed by the media that he is good in town hall formats, as opposed to reading from a teleprompter, the opposite of Obama who is better in front of a prompter than in a town hall.
As far as being able to remember the speech, Clinton did that time the teleprompters showed the wrong speech. He gave his speech from memory while the prompters were showing a totally differnt speech. Impressive!
But no, I don't expect him to memorize his speeches, I don't have much in terms of expectations for Barack Obama at all. However, given how much gushing seems to be going on about his speech giving abilities by nearly everyone in the entire world, I thought it was worth pointing out some of what I saw when I watched the speech (i didn't watch the whole thing yet).
When you want to stop throwing around generalizations about your fellow Americans on the right, I'll be happy to debate the issues with you.
See B-tone, right there, I don't agree with you, so some how that gets turned into, "So, according to Andy, anyone who did NOT vote for Bush, who is NOT a political conservative - is by definition an elitist. Good to have that settled." I don't agree with you, so somehow that equates to the bullshit you put up. Find one line in my defintions of an elitist that refers to party of any kind...come on...just one.
That would be one more definition of an elitist, someone who can't figure out that a line like, no, not all democrats are elitists, I know a few who voted for Reagan, was an attempt at humor, would be an elitist. Same group that got their feelings hurt by the New Yorker cover.
I didn't say anything about political affiliation, I said, if I don't believe what you believe than I must be wrong, because your elite ass could never be wrong.
And of course, 9/11 was bush's fault, everything is bush's fault. Because all us non-elitists aren't as smart as you and we just don't know what's good for us. We even re-elected him! We must really be fucked up! I say we even though I voted third party...
We'll all just sit home and let your royal ass vote for us. We'll be home clinging to whatever if you need us...
It was not a typical campaign speech, nor was it delivered in front of the Brandenburg gate. And, it would seem that Pres. Merkel and Obama did in fact have some substantive discussion.
The speech was hardly a "shipwreck." It laid out some broad perspectives of how Obama is likely to proceed with foreign policy if elected.
That a "senior foreign policy advisor" made a verbal gaff is perhaps embarrassing, but is of little importance. Look at all of the gaffs McCain seems to spout almost daily, with little more than a ripple running through the media. Perhaps McCain should give a speech in Czechoslovakia.
Also, it's interesting how McCain and his people chided Obama for not having gone abroad, then chiding him for having done so. What a crock!
By the way, McCain also hit Obama for not visiting wounded American soldiers in German hospitals. Obama intended to do so, but was asked not to by the Pentagon owing to their perception of Obama's trip being political. Obama acceded to their request.
I did like a description of the two candidates' stops yesterday: "Obama appears before huge crowds in Berlin; McCain appears before two in the dairy section." How truly humble Sen. McCain is.
B-tone
But no, I don't expect him to memorize his speeches, I don't have much in terms of expectations for Barack Obama at all.
Quoted for truth???
I liked it anyway!
Clavos, Nice stuff. I think it's a be presumptuous, but he is the presumptive candidate so I guess that makes sense. Anyways, it's not going to hurt him one bit. This man will be elected president, and as per my article "President Obama" the timing of his election will coincide with a better Iraq, a recovering economy and Afghanistan? Please.
8 years of Obama followed by a legacy that Bill Clinton could only wish for. JFK may even be jealous.
Folks, Why Me/Jamal + various other aliases is a person who is banned from Blogcritics. No political censorship is occurring.
ObAm, I don't think any of your posts were deleted.
The way I read it was, the Pentagon told Obama not to make it political and he opted out, I guess it's just where you get your source from. They're side by side on Drudge, one saying one thing, one saying the other, but I'm more inclined to believe the Pentagon side of the story...then again, they're just cronies for the bush administration, right B-tone?
It was that conservative font that gave him away wasn't it CR???
B-Tone,
Finally we agree on something. McCain's campaign this week was idiotic. First off, why wasn't McCain down in texas in a blue collared shirt (no tie) helping families hurt in the storm. What a contrast that would have been to Obama's europetting. But no, he instead goes to a german restaurant (???)?
I don't get it. I won't be happy about a president Obama but with the media so in love with this guy, you are about to get what you wished for.
Andy, I can think of other four letter words than font that might apply... ;-)
Chris, you're right, nothing of mine was deleted, it was me. Call it Friday Giddyness.
WhyMe, I've been a BlogCritic for perhaps a year now, and they've never unduly censored me, and I am on your side on this. I think Obama is one of the worst candidates the Democratic party has foisted upon the American people, albeit a great speaker. This comment won't be deleted.
WhyMe,
I don't agree that the Europeans hate Bush. Central to most Dems arguments is that our stature has fallen in the world, but as noted in today's Wall Street Journal edit page, this idea is "past it's sell by date."
France's Sarkozy is pro US, Germany's Merkel is pro US, UK's Brown is pro US as was of course Blair. The list goes on and on. Are we really trying to win over the hearts and minds of the leaders of the Kremlin or Beijing? Please. The idea that we have some repairing to do across the pond is poppy cock. We need to continue to look after our own interests over anything else, just like the rest of the world.
And more over, this idea of going to Germany and proclaiming that "America isn't perfect" in concilliatory tones makes me cringe. I don't remember for the life of me when any other country's candidate for leader came here and did that, Germany included. What kind of crapola is that?
ob: "And more over, this idea of going to Germany and proclaiming that "America isn't perfect" in concilliatory tones makes me cringe. I don't remember for the life of me when any other country's candidate for leader came here and did that, Germany included. What kind of crapola is that?"
the truth? and not even a hard truth. it's pretty vague.
i'd love to see a chinese leader come over here and say, "we sold you crap, lead-laden crap."
or an indian leader say, "yeah, we're stealing your phone center jobs."
or the canadian president say, "yes, our comedians once made you laugh, but that was in a time called the late 80s-early 90s. they suck now."
or the english p.m. say, "our teeth are so bad because we drink so much tea with milk and sugar and our understanding of dentistry is stuck in the early years of the FIRST queen elizabeth."
Just wanted to go all the way back to Baritone's comment # 1...
The other day someone (can't remember who, probably the Clavster) finally corrected you on the spelling of the expression 'bated breath'.
Got another one for you, I'm afraid.
The expression is 'shoo-in', not 'shoe-in'.
Gracias.
[This has been a Public Disservice Announcement.]
Guilty as charged, yer honor...
Bully for John McCain for his constant harping: "I would rather lose an election than lose a war." while suggesting (hell, saying) that Obama would sacrifice this country for his own political gain. The Obama campaign ain't taking the bait. McCain thinks he's onto something. All he's onto is shaming himself by accusing a sitting senator of what essentially amounts to treason. McCain forgets that this was an unnecessary war, a voluntary war, one that he supported beyond all reason while allowing our commitment in Afghanistan to be distracted.
I am so happy that the democrats have a candidate who is (while being a perfectly capable intelligent policy wonk) able to passionately espouse progressive American values, unlike his two predessors, Kerry and Gore, both capable men who allowed themselves to be boxed into a policy wonk stereotype. It ain't gonna happen this time.
Zing,
Not sure if you are trying to make light here, but how about starting with Germany for the atrocities of WWII? Russia for years of the cold war? Or even better, where is the desire for Hugo Chavez or Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to apologize for their behavior? Strangely the euro centric community seems content to allow these guys to do what they may, come what may. Yet somehow the big bad US should come grovelling with hat in hand full of apologies.
I don't think so.
"Barbara,
Much as I respect Baritone's opinions and enjoy debating him on these threads, I often do not agree with him, nor he with me.
The lengthy quote you ascribe to me in your #33 is actually Baritone's and in fact does not reflect my opinion."
Apologies, Clavos.
zing2:
or the english p.m. say, "our teeth are so bad because we drink so much tea with milk and sugar and our understanding of dentistry is stuck in the early years of the FIRST queen elizabeth."
I don't think Mr Brown will be saying something like that any time soon. Especially not on the strength of this fascinating survey of tooth decay trends among 12-year-olds in 16 developed countries (and one Swiss city).
It shows that British 12-year-olds have the 6th best teeth, with an average of only 0.9 decayed, missing or filled teeth.
And whaddaya know? Languishing in 13th place, with an average 1.28 dodgy teeth per kid, is...
...oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.
Barbara,
I think Obama has proven that he will make the politically expedient point over the correct point. Just look at his recent support, of all things, the 2nd amendment ruling by the supreme court. If that's not pure pandering then perhaps I need to learn to use my eyes again. How you can claim this belies a policy wonk under the covers or anywhere else is beyond me.
Moreover, ALL wars are voluntary, all wars even the revolutionary war, was one of choice. Why we are talking about this I don't know, I suppose to hide the fact that Obama lacked the judgement to support the surge. Support of which is not dependent on initial support of the war.
Doc,
Surveys aside, I've been to the UK. I've seen it first hand my friend, might be a stereotype, but it's also true.
Obnox, I think you saw what you expected to see. Such is the power of the stereotype.
Other countries simply aren't as obsessed with straightness and whiteness as you lot are, that's all.
I do remember a few kids with braces at school, but unless there's some serious orthodontic issue, dentists just prefer not to muck about with young teeth if there's nothing wrong with them health-wise. Braces tend to be a stigma, not the badge of honor/rite of passage they are here.
Excellent dental care isn't hard to come by in the UK, either. For the record, my dentist fitted me with a gold crown and several fillings eight years ago and they're still holding fast, despite the best efforts of my current fang carpenter to dislodge them. He's flabbergasted and reckons he may never have to replace them.
The Japanese, on the other hand - now there are some nasty teeth.
ob, germany has never heard a peep out of europe, no... and russia is best friends with the e.u.... and chavez and ahmadinejad have never heard any criticism from that part of the earth...
i don't think the europeans asked obama to apologize for the u.s.. and i don't think he so much apologizing as laying the facts down. he was just saying what is clear as day to most anyone: america sometimes fucks up. meh.
and to the doctor dreadful...
please...
y'all got some funky teeth. it's ok! it's ok! it's not children i'm worried about. those teeth are going to fall out anyway. but, JESUS.
"The Japanese, on the other hand - now there are some nasty teeth."
they ain't called "the british of asia" for nothing.
actually, that's the only reason.
I just read the Berlin speech online. Wow, that's a bad speech.
It starts with race. When will people recognize that Obama is injecting race into the campaign all the time? Next, he gives a history of the Berlin airlift. How's this for a clunker of a line: "Look at Berlin, where the bullet holes in the buildings and the somber stones and pillars near the Brandenburg Gate insist that we never forget our common humanity." What??! That doesn't even make sense. And believe me, it's even worse in context.
Then he goes on to talk about all the walls in the world, all the symbolic walls. It reminds me of the El Guapo speech from The Three Amigos. We all must fight our own personal El Guapos, whatever they may be, although in this case, our El Guapo is the real El Guapo. Don't go to Berlin and talk about symbolic walls, ya moron.
Then to the heart of the speech. No, wait; there is no heart of the speech. Obama just talks about the things we need to do. Fight terrorism, eliminate AIDS, restrain the spread of the "deadly atom". (Seriously. I didn't make that up.) Does Obama think we haven't been doing these things? Is this speech written for those who never realized that Middle East peace should be a goal? Although, to be fair, not all of the points are obvious. Some are outlandish, like preventing storms.
I'd give it a B- if it were a high school paper.
Obama's speech does not start with race. It starts with an explanation of his personal history and how he came to wind up where he is. The only thing that comes close to representing race is when he says that he knows he doesn't look like the other Americans who have previously spoken there. That is simply a true statement.
Also, the "clunker of a line" you highlight makes absolute sense in the context of German history. He starts off that section quoting the German mayor at the time and repeating the whole "look to Berlin" thing. Framed in that context, again, it makes perfect sense. He's not talking to Americans; he's talking to Germans.
Don't go to Berlin and talk about symbolic walls, ya moron.
Because? It seemed to resonate with the people that were there, "ya moron."
The heart of the speech is about needing new hope, Baronius. I know that's a tough concept for people who are part of the "everything's fine" crowd, but the truth is that the rest of the world is VERY unsure about what America's goals are in the Middle East. We get our information from different sources and we have different points of view as to how America is behaving in a global context. This speech was meant to reassure the people of Berlin and, to a larger extent, the people of the world that America is trying to do some good in the world and there are people that want to do better and change things for the better. That's a message most of us living outside your borders don't know and you have to be able to acknowledge that. Obama did that. The America worshippers naturally tremble and piss at the idea that America isn't doing all it can, but the rest of the world sees things in another way. The fact that so many Americans ignore that and simply put their heads down and barrel through comes across as arrogant. You say you want to lead, then you don't lead anywhere but to hell. Bravo.
I realize that speeches are speeches. They're designed for PR. I'm not even sure that the precedent for Obama's speech as a candidate was there or that he even should have been there doing it as someone who MAY wind up being president. But I liked what I heard. I liked the idea that Americans (some of them) are interested in being better global citizens.
And when he's talking about the "deadly atom," he's talking about nuclear weapons. No, "you" haven't been doing those things. Not nearly enough. It's all been a whole lot of posturing, threats, and empty words. The world grows weary of war and yet the United States seems to only want war. The world needs to hear a different song from "you."
Interesting, too, that Baronius elected to rate the speech a B- even though he seemed to hate the whole thing and said it was "bad." What were the good points that enabled you to give it such a grade? Why not give it an F altogether?
Yes, Bush got re-elected and it's been great ever since.
Elitism is in the eye of the beholder. My view of elitism coincides more or less with that of what I believe was Barbara's above.
I do wonder what happened to some of the comments above. While I certainly didn't agree with them, I did not feel that any of them crossed into personal attacks. Did somebody hit the wrong button?
B-tone
B-tone, I got to this thread late, and it's really tough to follow.
zing2:
That photo is either
a) Shane McGowan of the Pogues
b) a meth addict
c) both.
Let me assure you that Mr McGowan's dental hygiene is a cause of great concern in the country of his birth. However, he's barely British since both his parents are Irish and he spent much of his childhood on the Emerald Isle.
Jordan, I can understand it if you prefer Obama ideologically, but don't try to defend the rhetoric of that "bullet holes" sentence. First, there's the painful metaphor that bullet holes insist something. Then there's the matter of what they are insisting: that we remember our common humanity. In what way do bullet holes remind us that we're commonly human? That humans don't like to be shot at, or what?
The insertion of race was unnecessary. It wasn't about looking at Berlin; it was about looking at Obama's skin tone. It's always about Obama's skin tone.
I know what the "deadly atom" was supposed to mean. It just sounds stupid, like there is one specific atom, and it's deadly. Maybe it translates into German better, but it sounds silly in English. You'd expect to hear it in a 1950's CD film.
I feel like I'm screaming about the Emporer's clothes. I'm not critiquing Obama's policies, but his awful presentation. Doesn't anyone else notice it? His words are awkward, his delivery is bad, and everyone talks about how articulate he is.
Baronius would not have liked Obama's speech had it been the Gettysburg address or the Bard's St. Crispens Day speech of Henry V. He is so predisposed to despise Obama that nothing he could say or do would pass Baronius' muster.
I must once again plead guilty to my "shoe-in" debacle. I can't say whether it's a mind thing or a finger thing. I guess it doesn't matter. It's obvious that I'm coming apart here. My brain is turning to Lorraine Swiss cheese - a bit more refined than just regular Swiss cheese.
B-tone
Oh noes!!!
B-Tone:
The deleted comments were from JOM. His Bannedness has been posting here under yet another alias. We've had to excise all of his comments.
Baronius:
I know. Somehow we got from Obama's Berlin speech to dental hygiene in the UK. This is what happens when zingzing comments in the Politics section, which (perhaps fortunately) doesn't happen all that often! ;-)
I don't believe Obama's speech was bad. It wasn't inspirational as some of his previous efforts have been. That could be at least in part due to the fact that he was speaking to a largely German audience. While I'm sure there were a large number of Americans and probably several Brits and Aussies, the majority of the audience probably had no idea what Obama was saying.
Obama is a skillful speaker, but, as with many gospel style orators, a great deal of the "inspiration" comes from the building to an emotional high which is largely dependent upon audience response. It just wasn't there. The few thousand English speakers in the crowd could not muster enough of a clamor for Obama to feed off of.
I just didn't find the metaphors as strained or painful as Baronius apparently did.
B-tone
Oh, Baritone, no politician has delivered anything close to the St. Crispen's Day speech in a long time. Some video game company used the speech recently in an ad, and I was actually misting up while watching it. An ad.
We've had a lot of politicians lately who can't string two words together. Some I've agreed with; some I've opposed. But let's stop pretending that Obama is anything close to eloquent. He's not as bad as McCain, but he's no Lincoln. He's barely a Dukakis.
baronius: "don't try to defend the rhetoric of that "bullet holes" sentence. First, there's the painful metaphor that bullet holes insist something. Then there's the matter of what they are insisting: that we remember our common humanity. In what way do bullet holes remind us that we're commonly human? That humans don't like to be shot at, or what?"
you must willfully be trying not to understand. it's painfully obvious to the rest of us. why do we remember history, baronius? right, right. now why do we choose to remember the nasty things we do to each other? yes, and those bullet holes were made by the action of some human being, shooting at another human being, maybe even through another human being. why do we do this stuff to each other? have we learned any better? surely, we must have.
"I'm not critiquing Obama's policies, but his awful presentation. Doesn't anyone else notice it? His words are awkward, his delivery is bad, and everyone talks about how articulate he is."
i thought you read it. he's a pretty smooth talker, from what i've seen. and his rhetorical presentation is anything but awkward. it plays with all the tricks of speech making. he's not making the greatest speeches in the world, ever, but those times are gone in political america.
bush won based on his down-hominess. one of obama's biggest problems with middle america is that he seems elite, above it all. which he might be. his speeches feature repetition and alliteration and slogans because that's something people can latch onto as his speech moves through different points.
if you were to look at it, you'd find that the average word count for presidential campaign speeches has dropped dramatically in the last 100 years. you'd also find that sentences are shorter. these speeches have been dumbed down, even since the 70s.
obama is walking a fine line in his speeches. obviously the man is smart enough that he could put your head on a rhetorical rollercoaster if he wanted to; instead, he opts for the rhetorical cocoon, lulling the listener.
and doc, that is mr. shane. he did spend part of his childhood in ireland, and probably left many teeth there. but the teeth you see in the photo, well, he grew those fuckers in merry ol' crumpet-stuffing england.
and i love it that jom can't stay away. he's pining for us all.
why'd he finally get banned? surely, he couldn't have gotten worse...
Zing - First of all, I think that Dread read an earlier comment of mine as a criticism of you. It wasn't.
I did read the speech. In general, I prefer to read Obama's speeches because I find his delivery so bothersome. By reading political speeches, I eliminate the middleman, and learn what the speechwriter and policy people think is important.
Bullet holes remind us. They remind us of a lot of things: of the dangers of totalitarian governments, of the consequences of our political choices, of how fragile peace can be, of the courage of the people of Berlin against half a century of oppression. They don't remind me of something as banal as our common humanity. If you look at the Brandenburg Gate and think that all humans are human, well, you're a bit dim.
Grew them?? They're not growing, they're retreating.
And yes, he did get worse. Without going into too much detail, the particular catalyst incident was a run-in with another commenter, who complained to the site owners. They decided they'd had enough of JOM's particular brand of bullshit and instructed us to give him the boot.
I think that Dread read an earlier comment of mine as a criticism of you.
I didn't, Baronius. Just having a little fun!
In general, I prefer to read Obama's speeches because I find his delivery so bothersome. By reading political speeches, I eliminate the middleman, and learn what the speechwriter and policy people think is important
here here...bravo...genteel applause
"The only thing that comes close to representing race is when he says that he knows he doesn't look like the other Americans who have previously spoken there. That is simply a true statement."
Only partially. Both Colin Powell and Condoleezza Rice have presented speeches in Germany.
I agree that he was playing the race card (as an asset which plays well to you guilt-ridden liberals), and rarely misses an opportunity to do so.
In his place, I would do the same; probably to a greater degree, because the desire to advance "diversity" by electing a black or female is strong among the liberal segment of the electorate.
I am one of those "guilt ridden liberals."
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No, really. I'm really sorry. Really, really sorry.
B-tone
Clav, I think that was one too many pulls of the old guilt-ridden liberal card...
What was your first clue, Doc?
Hard to put my finger on it, Clav... Some subtle underlying nuance in B-Tone's comment...
I was trying to be subtle, just hoping that someone would catch my drift.
B
Baritone, now that you've lost your white guilt, can we finally talk about Obama's lousy speeches?
"The Osama Obama European tour... " is Archies own version of "... Meaningless symbolism and empty rhetoric."
Sorry Bar, I just don't agree with you. You indicated that you only read the speech to remove "the middleman." A speech is meant to be heard. A good speech is in part written for its auditory effect. The script of a play is only the words, not the complete work. It can only be appreciated fully in performance. The same can be said of a speech. Oratory is an art. Obama is skilled in that art.
In this particular instance Obama's use of metaphors may or may not have been inspired, but they were, IMO by and large effective in conveying not only meaning, but emotion as well.
Do you really think our "common humanity" is banal? I'd say it's all we've got.
Obama has adopted some of the manner and flow of a gospel preacher, but without most of the bombast. I find nothing bothersome about his delivery at all. He has a good sense of pace and drama. That did not work so well in the Berlin speech owing to the relatively tepid response from an audience that for the most part did not understand English. Perhaps Obama will learn how to better invoke responses from foreign audiences with time. Perhaps some variant on "Ich bin ein Berliner" might have gotten a rise out of the German speaking crowd - especially since, as we now know, Kennedy was saying that he was a donut.
B-tone
RE #32
Obnoxious,
Fact is affirmative action set race relations back...
Please enlighten me, oh obnoxious one. How did affirmative action set race relations back?
...and wasn't only not necessary...
Really? Please explain how you could possible arrive at this conclusion.
...but damaging, even today, and pedantic.
Tell me what you know about equality today Obnoxious. How did the legacy of slavery and Jim Crow laws affect black people? What, for example, is the difference between black wealth and white wealth today? How many blacks are on the boards of directors of USA companies? By what percentage will having a black sounding name hurt you on your resume when your qualifications are equal to a white person's. (study 2003). How many jobs are actually advertised and how many are obtained by knowing who's who at the local (white) country club?
The 2003 University of Michigan Supreme Court case is a good case in point. It demonstrates how institutionalized racial inequality works and what we actually pay attention to. The point scale at Michigan had 150 possible points. How many points were you given to get into the university of Michigan for being black, Hispanic, or American Indian? (answer: 20)
Now we all KNOW that this is wrong and unfair. It's what led to the court case. The press and even Bush discussed how unfair this was. Keep in mind, ALL the points I am discussing had nothing to do with merit. Now, let's look at some of the other points you could get--ones no one seemed to think were unfair, and warranted NO discussion.
Well, you could get 16 points for being from the upper peninsula of Michigan (guess what color most people there are); attending a top high school got you 10 points (guess again at who is going to live in neighborhoods with top high schools); 8 points for taking advance placement classes (which are three times more likely to be available at schools serving whites than those that serve blacks); 4 points if your daddy when to Michigan (Whose your daddy? Likely some white guy, if he went to Michigan.).
Jennifer Gratz brought the lawsuit because 85 minority students who were less qualified than her got in and she didn't. (Eighty-five minority students.) No one discusses the 1400 white students that got in despite being less qualified than Jennifer Gratz. (Fourteen Hundred white students.)
Oh and Obnoxious, how did this happen?: "White students who failed to make the grade on all counts were nearly twice as prevalent on such campuses [the top 146] as black and Hispanic students who received an admissions break based on their ethnicity or race."
You would think that with all that unfair affirmative action tipping the scales in favor of minorities and all the racial equality that everyone claims is obvious, this could not possibly be correct. But, it is correct.
It's kind of repelling for a white woman to be suggesting that African Americans need the white establishment to tilt the scales in order to help out the black man.
Oh but Obnoxious, I the scales have already been tilted. And they remain tilted. White men have enjoyed affirmative action for a few hundred years. It's not like it started in the 60s. That was only when affirmative action included more than white men.
By the way, it is refreshing to know I repel people who mouth sounds that they borrowed rather than did any thinking themselves, because they don't have enough empathy to even look at another's point of view, let alone use any facts in their argument.
Here is a history quiz on affirmative action. Can you name any one of the things that happened in the entire history of the US that gave white people any of the many advantages that they enjoy yet, they did not earn?
"...affirmative action for rich white people is never a problem for the folks like our opponents....It is whites who have been held to lower standards....It is whites and only whites... who could get Cs all through school, brag about their mediocrity publicly, mangle the English language, and go on to become president of the United States." (Tim Wise)
References: Tim Wise speech, 2003 panel debate on ending affirmative action, Intelligence Squared.
Affirmative Action for Rich, White Kids?
Cindy,
Good job!
Pretty much all the people who argue with affirmative action are middle to upper middle class whites who generally have no notion of how or why affirmative action was established in the first place, or what barriers African Americans and other minorities have faced throughout this country's history and face yet today.
You made excellent points regarding the Michigan system and how it awards points most of which likely benefit whites over blacks. Is that fair? I'd say not.
B-tone
Tim Wise has a good point. GWB got to the White House by talking and acting like a Texan (which he isn't, BTW).
How d'you think Obama would have got on if he sounded like Ludacris?
I watched Mr. Wise's presentation, and he does indeed make good sense and a solid case for the continuation of affirmative action.
I do wish they would have let him finish his Reagan quote. Anyone know what that quote was?
Maybe something along the lines of "Mr. Gorbachev, in the Evil Empire, catsup is a vegetable."
Does that sound about right?
B-tone
ROFLOL!
I love you Dr.D for pointing that out.
Disclaimer: Dear Dr. D's wife, Americans can sometimes um, say things that might mean different things depending on who they are saying them to. My husband, being an American understands doublespeak, so there's no need to explain it to him. And in true American form my disclaimer is at least 10 x as long as the body of writing which apparently needs disclaiming
Cindy,
Doc's wife IS an American, I think, although she may be a Californian.
Cindy,
Bravo! Standing ovation. I suspect that many Americans suffer from the same ideology as Obnoxious, because America's history on race and gender doesn't get taught in school, and anti-minority propaganda is constantly spewed out on Hate Radio and Fox News.
You don't believe Hate Radio and Fox News influences people?
"One of the most striking poll findings is the number of people who continue to think Saddam Hussein was behind the Sept. 11 attacks. Depending on how it is asked, more than a third of Americans say Saddam Hussein was personally involved in those attacks. In a New York Times/CBS News Poll in September, 33 percent of the respondents said Saddam Hussein was "personally" involved. In June, when Princeton Survey Research, polling for Newsweek, asked if "Saddam Hussein's regime was directly involved in planning, financing or carrying out the terrorist attacks," 41 percent said yes."
New York Times
By JANET ELDER
Published: October 17, 2007
--Cobra
Clav,
Let's HOPE she is a Californian and not just an American. This would change my whole perception of Dr.D, knowing he had access to the whole of Europe AND California (and Hawaii I might add), but perhaps could only attract a wife from say, well, wherever Obnoxious lives.
Although that could be a great wife, come to think of it, someone who is dying to get away from, well, people who believe obnoxious things.
Dear Cobra,
I have to say that ALL the accolades must go to Tim Wise. Because, although I still research for myself every comment he makes; every comment he makes turns out to be factual. He still stuns me with some of the work he does. I almost cannot believe it sometimes. That is until I check his accuracy.
As far as HISTORY goes--you know, what we are taught at school--I have given up on that a long time ago. In fact, I decided not to be a history teacher because I figured I would be fired instantly from any job I could get. No one knows what actual history is. And since that is the case, you would have to convince a whole bunch of people you aren't making this stuff up!
By, "No one knows what actual history is." I mean that, not many people, including school principals and other teachers (even history teachers) know what actual history is.
One way to assess which race is getting the most undeserved preference at Michigan U. is to look at graduation rates. Blacks fail to graduate at three times the white rate. Does Tim Wise address this disparity?
History is whatever people want it to be in many cases.
A great book I listened to, "Lies My Teacher Told Me: Everything Your American History Textbook Got Wrong" by James W. Loewen recounts the significant problems encountered by teachers in the teaching of history. Sometimes the problem IS the teacher. But more often than not it has to do with the books and the curriculum adopted by the school systems.
A significant # of textbook publishers are in Texas - yeah, Texas. The publishers pretty much follow the edicts of the Texas school systems. What they publish for Texas schools, they publish for all the schools they serve. So, by and large, the right wing fundies who run a # of Texas school boards get to determine just what history is and is not taught in our schools. It really blows.
B-tone
Dan,
Please provide a reference.
Thanks,
Cindy
B,
It all starts with the Pilgrims and the Indians dancing in a circle hand in hand enjoying Thanksgiving dinner.
All of the little kindergarten students can have a choice of dressing up as an Indian, a Pilgrim or an ear of corn.
LOL!
Cindy, certainly. and you're welcome.
source
"The black graduation rate at the University of Michigan is only 60 percent. This is 27 percentage points lower than the rate for white students. In addition, the black graduation rate has dropped five percentage points over the past seven years."
Cindy,
I believe I opted for the corn. It presented motivational challenges that I hadn't yet encountered in my then 2nd grade thespian experience. I was a "post shucking" ear as I recall. A few years later, I believe I got to be the turkey. I know I appeared in a # of plays later in life that were said to have been turkeys.
B-tone
Oh, by the way, it proved to be really difficult to get to just the right inflection with my, uh, gobble.
B
Ruvy--what can I say except that you are wrong. (So, nu? What else is new?) McCain's team has its Arabists, too. McCain's advisors on the middle east include
Yes, Malley is an advisor, but so are Dennis Ross and Daniel Kurtzer. Brent Scowcroft is among McCain's advisors (yeah, he's really sooo very pro-Israel.)
I see Barbara, that you have never read my take on Barry Obama at all. Let's help you out a bit....
You'll need to go the actual article for the links....
Barry Obama has a record and it speaks for itself. Let's have a look at some of Obama's real life foreign policy experience. it might provide a foretaste of an Obama presidency.
Pam Geller of Atlas Shrugs, posted this at her site at the beginning of this year. Let's look at some highlights.
The Evangelical Alliance of Kenya has posted on its website a photograph copy of a Memorandum of Understanding, dated and signed on August 29, 2007, between Raila Odinga and Shiekh Abdullah Abdi, chairman of the National Muslim Leaders Forum of Kenya.
It pledges the support of Kenyan Moslems for Raila's election. In return, as President of Kenya, Raila agrees to 14 actions, listed a) through n) on page two. Read them all, and be sure you're sitting down. Here's a sample:
b) Within 6 months re-write the Constitution of Kenya to recognize Sharia as the only true law sanctioned by the Holy Quran for Muslim declared regions.
c) With immediate effect dismiss the Commissioner of Police who has allowed himself to be used by heathens and Zionists to oppress the Kenyan Muslim community.
g) Within one year facilitate the establishment of a Sharia court in every Kenyan divisional headquarters. [Note: everywhere in Kenya, not just in "Muslim declared regions."]
Raila Odinga has, in his own words, a "close personal friendship" with Barrack Hussein Obama Junior.
When Obama went to Kenya in August of 2006, he was hosted by Raila and spoke in praise of him at rallies in Nairobi: Obama's bias for his fellow Luo was so blatant that a Kenya government spokesman denounced Obama during his visit as Raila's "stooge."
Barry Obama, referred to here as Barrack Hussein Obama Junior, was at home with Zionist (almost every member of AIPAC sees himself as a Zionist) friends - after facilitating this agreement? Who does he think he is fooling?
Now let's go back to that Democracy Now's video explaining Walt and Mearsheimer's piece on the Jewish lobby. Michael Massing, from the New York Review of Books, explains, among other things, that they are realists coming out of the Brzezinski school of foreign policy. Guess who is one of Barry Obama's foreign policy advisors? Zbigniew Brzezinski!
Let's also look at who likes Obama - or who did until a couple of days ago. "Hamas Un-'Endorses' Obama" says this ABC news blog. This means that Hamas did like him. They had endorsed him.
For the moment, Obama will have to endure the "alcohol slap" that everyone endures when appearing to befriend Israel and Jews. That's just life, and with time, Obama will "clarify" point after point of this speech to AIPAC until they have all disappeared into smoke and mirrors.
This is the point where you are supposed to read that you should vote for John McCain because he does love the Jews for real, right? Well, guess what, folks? McCain has Jim (fu-k the Jews) Baker whispering sweet somethings into his ear about this neck of the woods, particularly Israel. So McCain is no better than Obama.
Try reading the rest of the article for clarification.
I don't need to name names, Baritone. But I know who my enemies are and when i see names like Dennis Ross and Kurtzer, I know the prick hanging out with them is bad news.
And Obama is bad news. But for me, he is better news than McCain. For a Jew in North America, the opposite may well be true.
Oh yes, Barbara....
Notice what continent Obama stays away from. All these trips to Europe and west Asia are being done to cover his filthy footprints in Kenya, where he actually showed what he does.
What he does is favor his native tribe, and favor his family. So, in an Obama presidency, if you extrapolate that just a bit, you can see what kinds of scandals will wrack his administration, and get a good idea of where a lot of them will originate. Being that he is a Chicago politician, this should not surprise....
An intelligent Chicago (or Milwaukee) reporter will be interviewing his former colleagues in community organizing, I'd think, and keeping a close eye on their actions from now on....
Dan - One way to assess which race is getting the most undeserved preference at Michigan U. is to look at graduation rates.
too many factors influence graduation rates for this 'deservedness' to be a clean metric
Re: Baritone #106--not only history, but science as well. This has been an issue vis a vis intelligent design/creationism and Texas text books.
In reference to the question re: whether I address black/white graduation rate disparities (because this, ostensibly is a good way to determine who is being preferentially admitted to certain colleges), in fact I do, in my book Affirmative Action: Racial Preference in Black and White, in great detail. Graduation rate gaps actually say nothing about "preferential admissions" because even when you compare only those students with identical high test scores, black graduation rates are lower, far lower. The reasons instead, are twofold: financial stresses, which lead blacks to have to leave college more often than whites, and experiences with racial isolation and hostility on campus, all of which are documented by numerous sources, which I reference in the footnotes. Those who are interested in the facts will read the book...those who aren't will continue to believe what they want to believe.
B,
For shame! "...a "post shucking" ear..."
Obviously you did not go to a Christian school. They would never let an ear of corn run around without its husk on.
What a wonderful thing the internet is. Tim Wise answered Dan's question himself @ #116. Wow! Thank you Mr. Wise!
I was still researching it and will put what I came up with here anyway.
It's Racism Stupid! by Tim Wise
More unequal than others in the US by Dalton Conley (whom Tim Wise cites in the first article)
Ah, Mr. Wise,
Great to have you join in here. If you revisit us, could you enlighten us as to what particular Reagan quote with which you intended to close your presentation at the Affirmative Action debate?
Did it involve jelly beans, perhaps?
As to appearing on stage as a "naked" ear of corn, well, I went to a public school in which the devil ran rampant. We had no shame.
Actually, I'm rather an old fart. I went to grade school in the 50s in Indy. About the only "christian" schools in existence here at that time were the catholic schools. For a few years we did trundle across the street to a Presbyterian Church once a week or so for some good olde tyme protestant bible study - the Constitution be damned!
But, otherwise, we went along day to godless day, even learning things like science!
Barbara,
Of course, you are correct regarding the teaching of Science - especially evolution and anything that counters the fundies' belief that the world is only around 6000 years old like geology, archaeology, astronomy, etc.
B-tone
I also think that after the convention, with the debates and the heavy hitting ads, etc., Obama will become more well known.
How on earth could Obama become MORE well known? The media gives him wall to wall coverage 24/7.
As for his speech, I think he ought to run for president of Europe. They seem to like him and his progressive/socialist ideology fits in better there.
Dave
Whereas here in the good ole US of A we prefer a more stodgy/regressive ideology.
B
Some would call it a more fundamentally valid ideology based on individual rights rather than collective rights.
Dave
Some would. Some would not. Are we "collectively" doing so much better here than those in western Europe? Overall, I don't think so.
B
Yes, we are, Baritone. Especially if you count in some quality of life issues.
Just on a relatively objective comparison like standard of living our mean is far higher than the mean even for just the western part of Europe, though a couple of their nations do score higher.
And regardless, how much are things like the right to be face your accuser or to not be held without bond or to be considered innocent until proven guilty worth? How much is it worth to be tried by a jury of your peers or to be able to own land outright and pass it on to your children and on to their children? Most in Europe don't have these rights, and the rest are imperiled by the growing EU government and its laws.
If I faced even the possibility of trial infront of a tribunal of appointed judges in aother country for crimes like picking protected species of wildflowers, I think I'd be ready for armed revolution. And yes, this is possible under the EU's new Environmental Crimes law.
Dave
It is indeed a notable event that someone as prominent in race relations literature as author and speaker Tim Wise would do a pop-in here at BC.
And in response to my comment no less!
Unfortunately I can't immediately agree with some of Mr. Wise's conclusions.
The assertion that "Graduation rate gaps actually say nothing about "preferential admissions" because even when you compare only those students with identical high test scores, black graduation rates are lower, far lower", seems to directly contradict some data that show when test scores are comprable, the rates of graduation are as well.
In top tier schools where gifted blacks rely less on preference, dropout rates merged. The more common big name universities where racial preference plays a bigger role is where the rates diverge.
"it is clear that racial differences in SAT scores, for example, are much smaller at Harvard (95 points) than at Duke (184 points) or Rice (271 points)."
In fact, there almost seems to be a linear correlation between test scores and dropout rates, in that dropout rates between races are negligable when test scores are negligable.
"Compare racial preferences in Colorado, for example. At the flagship University of Colorado at Boulder, test score differences between black and white students have been
Barbara,
The visual of a couple hundred thousand people going back about as far as the eye could see was stunning in and of itself.
As for "substance" or "details" this was not a stump speech. He was not (directly at any rate) asking for votes. Rather, he was, as you suggest, making a statement regarding what America should be to the rest of the world. He stated a desire to reclaim our position of leadership and dignity in the world that was squandered by the Bushies, and noted the necessity of sacrifice for all.
Obama will not be the saviour of the country or the world. But he does embody a greater hope to achieve those goals than McCain or anyone else.
The New Yorker issue with the infamous Obama cover also has an excellent in depth article by Ryan Lizza on Obama and how he got to where he is today - "How Chicago Shaped Obama."
Obama's profile is drawn as one who, it becomes apparent, has had his "eye on the (presidential) prize" for a long time. His professional life has been largely calculated to getting to the WH. He has been every bit as determined as Hillary to win the nomination and now to win the whole shebang.
That kind of tunnel vision, if you will, seems to bother some people. However, is it really any different than say a dancer, an athlete or a surgeon who dedicates their every waking hour to the perfection of their craft, to achieve the goal of making it to the top of their chosen profession?
Many people don't seem to like the notion of a "professional" politician. Yet, most of those who throw their hats in the political ring at most any level, do so with at least an eye looking askance at something higher. A candidate for the Podunk town council likely dreams of the possibility of moving upward to state or even federal office. It's a vain hope for most, but there are a few, owing to circumstance and their own drive and abilities who make it to higher plateaus, including the presidency.
Obama has honed his craft, and as above, owing to circumstances has found himself on the cusp of making history. At this point he's not a shoe-in, McCain is far from being out of the game, but the next few months could be fun.
B-tone