I'm STILL laughing!

Excellent, and VERY funny!

Do (or did) the Dead really get invited? Do they have to sing for their supper?

and what do you know about the dead clavos? huh?

Pablo didn't read the article again, I see.

Oh yes I did, and I asked you what you know about jerry and bobby bucko

Oh and Pig Pen, and Keith too bucko

Sorry, pablo, I thought you hadn't.

I don't know anything (and I mean NOTHING) about them, and don't care, beyond liking their music, so please, don't tell me all about their memberships and associations, it bores the shit out of me.

I like their music; I don't need to know anything else.

Just for the record Clavos, I personally saw that particular band over 700 times LIVE, the JGB about 200 times LIVE, so yeah when someone mentions the dead it perks my ears, as imho they happen to be the best fucking band that ever existed. I have also been talking with Eric about doing a series of articles on my experiences of over 30 years being one of their heads as it were. :)

So, did you ever see them at the BG, "bucko?"

Pablo: "I personally saw that particular band over 700 times LIVE, the JGB about 200 times LIVE".

Fair dinkum?? A touch obsessive, d'ya reckon? But kudos to ya, I don't know how you fouind the time in between reading up on all them conspiracy theories :)

We have a large group of serious-minded people working on the second floor of my building here in Sydney ... they are known to the rest of us as The Grateful Dead.

By the way, I reckon Dave knows way too much about the subject matter here. He writes with what I'd suggest is great insider knowledge

Come on, fess up Nalle ... but please, mate, don't give us too much information. We've just had the Pope here.

Do you mean did I see them at a Bill Graham event Clavy? BG?? The main venues out here on their home turf was the Fillmore, Fillmore West, Greek Theatre, Jerry Band Keystone Berkeley and the Stone in SF. Down in the Peninsula was Shoreline, I dont know BG bucko.

STM,

Obsessive? Well when you discover the best band in the world at at 12 as I did, it was very easy to become obsessive. Perhaps you have heard of the Human-bein Golden Gate Park Jan 15th 1967, I walked there from my house. So yeah me and most of my friends were avid deadheads, and enjoyed every second of it for decades. Yep I was obsessive about the Grateful Dead, and I will soon write about some of my experiences on the Music section on here.

As to Bobby and Micky being members of the Grove, post Grateful Dead, I as you can imagine, as well as many people that I know were not too thrilled by it. By the way I personally know most if not all of the back woods in that particular area of Sonoma County as it used to be my running grounds.

Frankly I was a fan of Jerry's, the rest of the band for the most part was back-up, and always found Phil to be an extreme snob anyways.

I can tell you this however, I had the time of my life seeing those guys play, as did the rest of the audiences, and I do not regret for one minute all of the time that I spent following them around.

I will however give you a brief list of where I did see them Clavy. Golden Gate Park many times, original Fillmore Auditorium on Geary and Fillmore in the sixties numerous times, the Greek in Berkeley tons of times, The SF Civic numerous, The original Oakland Auditorium, now known as the Henry J Kaiser Auditorium, tons. Europe, Essen, Berlin, Hamburg, London, Paris, Frankfurt, the East Coast, tons of places, Midwest Alpine Meadows, Soldier Field, Oregon Washington Nevada and too many other venues to name, but BG? Never heard of it bucko.

Do (or did) the Dead really get invited? Do they have to sing for their supper?

Apparently two of the surviving members are regular attendees. One of them actually stays in the same bunkhouse as former President Bush (Sr.).

One of the things which Alex Jones doesn't really play up is that the core body of the BG attendees are local San Francisco arts and business notables. The next largest group is major business figures from all over the country. Politicians make up only a smaller element of the total membership.

Dave

Oh, and an interesting note on all of this for those who like mysterious little inside jokes.

Harry Shearer who is a member of BG wrote a satirical play about it called "The Teddy Bear's Picnic" and the Grateful Dead wrote a song of the same name (the amazon link on this article) which seems to be about the BG, disguised as a children's song.

Oh, and I love the fact that this article is accompanied by an ad for Anton Lavey ringtones. Who knew that the Beast made ringtones...

Dave

Pablo,

Given all the early venues you quote, you're obviously a product of 60s and 70s San Francisco. Am I right? If so, good luck to you ... I'm surprised you can remember any of it.

The first time I went to SF, in I think 1979, or thereabouts anyway, I did the usual visit to Haight/Ashbury, and there were acid casualties and mad people roaming around. I must say, too, I felt quite at home, which was a worry ...

SF is a lot like Sydney in its looks and both are a bit brash and funky.

Because we have such a large population of Italian migrants here, the place is awash in good coffee and Australians are a bit like the Italians and Portuguese: they like their coffee and to sit in cafes shooting the breeze.

SF (North Beach) was the only place in the US at the time apart from Little Italy in New York and a place in Chicago and some areas of Miami where I found a decent coffee, which I thought was really quite bizarre for a nation of coffee drinkers.

Last time I was there I spent a lot of time in a little white waterfront cafe over in Sausalito, where a friend had an apartment.

Great place ... love to go back one day, and to Miami too hopefully to visit Clav, although I'm worried they might not let me back in after the golf cart and (multiple) vending machine incidents.

STM

Yep I was born and raised in SF. By 1979 as you know that Haight was a ghostly shell of its former self, I moved up north to Orygun in 77. Some of the other notable bands that I have seen live, The Jefferson Airplane, Quicksilver, Paul Butterfield Blues Band, Love, Otis Redding at the Fillmore, Hendrix at Winterland, The Stones countless times, Big Brother and the Holding Company with Janis Joplin about ten times, the Who, Dylan, Van Morrison, Eric Burden and the Animals, Fleetwood Mac, the Loading Zone with Linda Tillary, The Fugs, the Band, HP Lovecraft, Neil Young, Crosby Stills and Nash, and quite a few more bands. However it was always the Dead that I liked the most.

As I have always loved music, I was at the right place in the right time, and loved every minute of it.

As to my dabbling with conspiracy theories, I have been an astute political observer for at least the last 25 years, and even back in 1965 I was out with my whole family protesting the War in Vietnam.

I did not start with an agenda, other than all those 25 years ago, I knew as did most of my friends, that something was terribly wrong with my countries political machinations. My studies have led me to the beliefs that I hold now, not any hatred of anyone, particularly those of another race or religion. I do not claim to know all that there is to know about politics, nor do I have an answer for the miserable state of affairs. I do however believe that JFK was killed as a result of a conspiracy, (as did the congressional panel that studied his assassination). I have read in the neighborhood in total probably 50 books on the subject.

As I have said repeatedly on this website, I am not paranoid, if I was I would not be openly talking about those that rule the planet. I am just not afraid of them, as I was given my freedom from on high, and it is where I will always seek my refuge.

Dave frequently talks about the Socialist conspiracy as being the true evil one. However my studies have shown me that the Bolshevik Revolution was funded by Wall Street, not some poor rabbled masses yearning for some bread. Even today the so called socialist conspiracy that he frequently refers to is certainly not being promulagated by poor folk. What we have is a welfare state for the rich as witnessed so recently by Bear Stearns, and FreddieMac bailouts.

The use of fiat currency that is inflationary is an indirect tax, and in my opinion is used on purpose to disenfranchise the masses, at this time particularly the middle class. They want a surfdom, a feudalistic future, where there is rich and poor period, in a totalitarian environment

I stand by everything that I have said about the CFR, the Bilderbergs, Bohemian Grove (google 'the franklin coverup') and the Rothschilds. They have plans for this earth and it doesn't include most other people, and those that it does include will be little more than slaves.

My two sense worth

Pablo

I went to an event at the Sonoma County Fair Grounds last year called the "Harmony Festival". At one point I actually stood up and yelled, "What does bitching about the president have to do with harmony!" Then I left.

That's all it was, was a few musical acts interspersed with people bitching about the president. Nothing harmonious about it.

Harry Shearer who is a member of BG wrote a satirical play about it called "The Teddy Bear's Picnic" and the Grateful Dead wrote a song of the same name (the amazon link on this article) which seems to be about the BG, disguised as a children's song.

You just wrecked that tune for me. My cousin made a CD with Garcia where this song featured prominently. That Amazon link looked awful familiar and now I see why.... It's the cover to my cousin's CD.

Dave frequently talks about the Socialist conspiracy as being the true evil one. However my studies have shown me that the Bolshevik Revolution was funded by Wall Street, not some poor rabbled masses yearning for some bread. Even today the so called socialist conspiracy that he frequently refers to is certainly not being promulagated by poor folk. What we have is a welfare state for the rich as witnessed so recently by Bear Stearns, and FreddieMac bailouts.

My concern is not about the old-style marxists left over from the Soviet Union nor is it about the home-grown socialism by necessity practiced by our government. I'm concerned about the international NGOs and influence groups and the increasing power of the UN. Not secret conspiracies, but groups with common interests working together against US sovereignty and capitalism.

The use of fiat currency that is inflationary is an indirect tax, and in my opinion is used on purpose to disenfranchise the masses, at this time particularly the middle class.

I actually agree on this, but I think you've totally misread the effect which it has. IMO the target of the invisible tax inherent in issuing fiat currency is foreign investors. We're using devalued currency to make China finance our wars.

Dave

The purpose of the fiat currency is for the 'insiders' (the government, congress, etc., and their enablers the big corps) to defraud the 'outsiders' (unimportant US citizens, most foreigners, most foreign corps, etc.).

"'insiders'...to defraud the 'outsiders'

Isn't that the way of the world?

Your condo association?

Religions?

Trade unions?

Lobby groups?

Professional associations?

Industry associations?

Inner city gangs?

There are only two types of people: Predators and prey.

As a housing authority 'insider' I do try not to defraud my 'outsider' tenants and landlords.

Whether they return the favor is another question entirely!

Damn funny. Now besides wishing I had grown up in San Francisco (my adopted home), I wish I were a man, a BG-er, rich, and able to take three weeks off from work.

Good job.

You could always attend as a prostitute. I hear they're very well paid. Gah, imagine sex with Dick Cheney. Never mind. No payment is enough.

Dave

I'll be having nightmares for weeks now. Thanks a bunch, Dave.

Bliff: "The purpose of the fiat currency."

I prefer an Alfa Romeo myself.

BTW, on a serious note, when it comes to that stuff, I would say that this country (Australia), rather than being defrauded, has benefited hugely from its association with the US. Much like the US, it's also had and still has close ties to Europe, Britain and Ireland particularly, and benefits too from close ties to Asia. Obviously, our British background has a lot to do with it, but our recognition of the US as our main partner post WWII has made this country the the premier nation on this side of the Pacific rim.

For American visitors, most of the time, apart from the fact that we speak properly, have a decent flag and drive on the proper side of the road, you wouldn't even know you weren't in America - which is what they always say.

I don't see the US, for all its Hollywood-style bulsh.it on occasion (like under the current administration), as a force for bad in this world.

You only have to come here to see what good has come from that association. Do you think the Europeans and the Japanese think they've been defrauded by the US?

No way - pretty much except for the British, they all owe their current way of life to a magnanimous United States that mostly brought peace and democracy to the defeated and shattered people of the world post WWII.

Perhaps you guys need to learn to give yourselves a bit of a pat on the back sometimes.

No, it's not perfect - but I can think of many far worse alternatives and scenarios than the US being the world's most powerful country.

"There are only two types of people: Predators and prey."

Bull.

As usual.

It's just some simplistic saying that isn't grounded in reality.

There are all sorts of people who are neither, but who, if allowed the full use of their rights, can aggressively defend their keep from predators and continue to thrive.

There are very few real dangerous individual predators among us. Their natural percentage in society is nevertheless boosted, as they are marginally enticed to dark deeds by the disarming of their fellow Americans. But with the help of government, even the meekest and mildest little weasels can become predators - with politicians pandering to their every little whim - right left and sideways.

***

By the way, Dave (and the merry band of suckups), you guys keep saying Paul and his tards are crazy for wanting to return to the gold standard,

and you keep saying you like Cato...

well, they just said that it isn't crazy at all.

Literally. Read the last sentence of the paper.

It gently repudiates Milton Friedman, which means of course, that, without saying so explicitly, it vindicates Ron Paul.

And Jefferson

And Von Mises

And me! : )

***

One day you fellows will learn...

One day.

We can only hope.

Heh.

Interesting. That reverses Cato's prior position, or at least contradicts prior briefing papers that they have issued.

I still have more faith in Milton Friedman than Lawrence White, but he makes some reasonable arguments in his paper.

His quote from Greenspan is significant. I agree that the idea of regulating a greenback currency is to create the equivalent of a gold standard, but with greater liquidity and potential for expansion.

He also blows off the question about the 19th century panics to focus only on the depression. Gold and speculation in precious metals clearly played a much larger role in the panics of 73 and 93 than it did in 1929 but he doesn't really look at that.

Oddly, I also disagree with what he says is the strongest point against gold. If we were to switch to a gold standard, because dollars are used to buy oil and in international financial transactions it would essentially force the rest of the world onto a gold standard, or at least into a system where the value of their currency were assessed relative to our gold standard. That means the issue of an international gold standard is moot, but it also would be potentially devastating to economies outside the US whose currencies would suddenly lose their purchasing power.

Most importantly, this would also result in a massive reduction in US exports and investment in the US. It would kill the balance of trade and this is, in fact, what caused the Depression, not the deflation he talks about. It was the inability to sell US products or attract foreign investment which led to companies being unable to maintain profits and meet obligations and ultimately overextending their credit and facing bankruptcy because there was no one to buy their products or provide them with additional capital to maintain operations.

So yes, the gold standard MIGHT not be devastating. Or it might. Shall we experiment with it and find out? I've got my bowl for the soup line.

Dave

TDS: "By the way, Dave (and the merry band of suckups), you guys keep saying Paul and his tards are crazy for wanting to return to the gold standard."

Never mind that a return by the US to the gold standard would practically (but temporarily) destroy the global economy upon which the well-being of the US depends, and would lead to a fair bit of restructuring, if you like, that would see Americans playing second fiddle to financially smarter entities like Europe. The first thing Americans would notice would be a drop in wages. Gee, like you really need that right now.

There are plenty of economists who will tell you that some of the most destructive periods in US financial history had everything to do with the currency being tied to gold - including the disaster of the great depression.

What people don't realise here is that those worthless bits of paper aren't worthless at all - they're worth exactly $1, and that the fluctuations in the currency aren't just about inflation. Hardly anyone here seems to understand that a lot of what causes these currency fluctuations is to do with speculation and factors outside the control of any one government (such as rising oil prices). What gives real value to a nation's economy, and therefore its currency, is its ability to manufacture goods and provide services. (America's post-war boom is testament to this).

On the scale that the US needs for this happen beyond smooth-talking bullsh.t artists shuffling bits of paper around in Wall St and London for their own gain, only a correction in the value of the US dollar can help achieve this, as it's simply not feasible for America to produce goods and sell them on world markets beyond a few key industries when they are the most expensive goods available because of the high value of the dollar and are not necessarily of a higher quality.

The US nees to export, and to make things and sell them - which is what made it rich in the first place. It needs, once again, raw materials coming in and manufactured goods going out. Without that the US is sunk. Returning to the gold standard won't address any of these issues, and might even pave the way for further disasters.

Gold's just a metal ... you know, it's not the 1860s. Economies are living, breathing things that tend to reflect the ideals of the people who ultimately are that economy and who are reflected in the governments that they elect.

Don't some paultards want to do away with the current income-tax system as well?

Perhaps you Paul followers could also start recruiting for the flat-Earth society.

It'd be a great match.

But...but...gold is so pretty!

I think the lust for gold among the Paulistas speaks to a desperate desire for stability and solidity in a world which they feel like they can't control. It comes from the unreasoning fear and paranoia which goes hand in hand with their fixation on conspiracies. Not sure what kind of early childhood trauma caused it, but it's pathological.

Dave

It truly is bizarre, Dave, really, to an outsider. I'm sure it's bizarre to most Americans too. Thankfully, the fact that Mr Paul didn't get very far in his desire for the presidency (I've stopped calling it a race ... it's too fu.king slow, more like an ultra-marathon), renews my hope in America and Americans, and my fondness and admiration for both.

Sadly, people like the Paultards, and I get the feeling most of them have never been outside their own states (except to march on Washington) let alone anywhere else in the world, are very inward looking and isolationist and don't realise that it's not just about America anymore and that in not being just about America, that's the only reason Americans enjoy the kinds of lifestyles they have.

My guess is that most wouldn't understand that things like the global credit crunch brought about by events in the US affect my standard of living in Australia exactly the same as they do for someone in, say, Minnesota or Texas. Ditto with oil prices, which are out of our control too, and which put up the cost of putting groceries on the table exactly the way they do in the US.

I wonder if the Paultards understand sometimes that none of us could co-exist without each other, and that this is an inevitable result of the technological changes that have pushed us kicking and screaming into the 21st century, holding hands to survive.

So, yes, I've got as much interest in the US having a responsible government that's not built on a desire to turn the clock back to the 1770s and tri-corner hats as a fashion statement as any average, thinking American.

The thing is, I don't know why they don't just give up and make some kind of constructive commitment to the republican cause instead of carrying on like porkchops in support of someone who's clearly had his go, and lost.

I always wondered about Nalle, but now I am convinced that he is lacking in something....

Calling Alex Jones a 'fascist demagogue' was the last straw.

("People having fun just doesn't sit well with the moralistic fascists who follow demagogues like Alex Jones.")

NH, what would you call someone who wants to impose his extremist version of morality on others in violation of their basic civil rights?

Dave

I was hoping Dave that you would take the time to describe what you mean in the above statement. I assume your talking about Mr. Jones, if so just which extremist version of morality are you referring to, and in particular how he wants to violate other's civil rights?

But Pablo. Surely you want to wait for my full article on the subject? I'll include Ron Paul on the roll of proto-fascists along with Alex Jones and Lou Dobbs and the rest.

Here's something to think about. The first step towards building a reactionary movement which can establish a totalitarian rule is to unite your followers by focusing their hatred on those who you claim are trying to oppress and exploit them. In the case of Jones and his fellow travellers the enemies are many - homosexuals, feminists, abortionists, jews, teachers, mexicans, bankers, anyone with money. The list goes on and on. You promise freedom but when you get power that freedom is only for the picked few and all those 'enemies' you identified earlier on are separated as a lesser class of citizens to whom those freedoms are denied, or worse.

That's the path of totalitarianism and that's clearly the road down which demagogues like Alex Jones are leading their followers.

Some animals are more equal than others...

Dave

Hmmm,

Figures I coudn't get a straight answer from you. Instead of answering my questions in a forthright manner, you continue your smear of the man. How utterly surprising Davey boy.

As I have been an avid listener of Mr. Jones for 7 years, I am now here to repudiate your character assassination of him, but to challenge you on every front.

Let us civilly, (I know thats difficult for you Davey as your above hysterical rant only confirms this) go by each of these sub groups that you accuse Mr. Jones of hating, shall we, bubba?

1. Homosexuals

I have never heard Mr. Jones reference homosexuals in a deragatory fashion, nor denigrate them for their attraction for the same gender. Whether or not he is for gay marriage I have no idea.

2. Feminists

This particular sub culture is not as easy to define as a homosexual, I have heard Mr. Jones characterize much of the feminist movement as being instigated by the Rockefellers, and I do know for a fact that Gloria Steinham was for a time in the employ of the CIA, but hey I know for you thats fine, being that the CIA runs in your blood bubba.


3. I happen to disagree with Jones position on abortion, that being said, your words were abortionists, I have never heard him utter a word of contempt or hatred for those that do choose abortion, perhaps you would be so kind as to furnish me the reference for that bubba.


4. I will put Jews and Mexicans in the same numerical sequence, not to denigrate these human beings at all but because your characterization of Jones hating them is based imho on the same thing. Jones doesnt believe in allowing illegal aliens to be here, and he does not support many of Israel's policies, this neither makes him anti mexican nor anti-semitic, and only shows your vain attempt at smearing is nothing more than that a SMEAR.

5. Teachers..........sure bubba

6. Bankers, anyone with money. Your either too dense, or more likely being paid by said bankers or their underlings, (CIA,DIA,NSA,etc) to ever utter the truth, and I would agree with this one classification that you have uttered as to who Jones considers his enemies to be.

That however did not answer my simple direct question Davey boy, which was HOW Mr. Jones was trying to violate other human beings civil rights. Its a straight forward question bubba. dont need all the hyperbole, and smear.

If anyone has shown hatred and smearing it is you towards this man, who in my opinion has never shown a shred of racism, anti-semitism, or homophobia. You smear by association, that is if he doesnt support Zionism, he is anti-semitic, or if he doesnt believe in open borders, hates mexicans.

Your arguments Davey, are getting weaker and weaker, more filled with shrillness and smear then ever before.

Thats why I follow you around on your articles bubba, cause I like callin a spade a spade, and you sir are truly a work of art.

just my two sense worth bucko

Pablo

ps

Hey bubba, did ya get a chance to see the Conyers hearings today? If not how about Bill Moyers tonight with the author from the New Yorker Magazine?


Oh and Dave? Thanks for being a continual source of utter amusement for me these last 6 months or so, it is free entertainment!

Oh and Davey?

Dont flatter yourself bubba, I RARELY read the entirety of your articles, I am here for amusement, and I pick and choose what I want, and boy do you amuse me!

"2. Feminists

This particular sub culture is not as easy to define as a homosexual, I have heard Mr. Jones characterize much of the feminist movement as being instigated by the Rockefellers, and I do know for a fact that Gloria Steinham was for a time in the employ of the CIA, but hey I know for you thats fine, being that the CIA runs in your blood bubba."

It's Steinem, but at least you spelled CIA right.

Thanks for giving me another reason to support the CIA. As a feminist myself, I had no idea that the CIA had nurtured it in Gloria.

Baravo CIA! Bravo Rockefellers - yet one more feather in your cap!

Figures I coudn't get a straight answer from you. Instead of answering my questions in a forthright manner, you continue your smear of the man. How utterly surprising Davey boy.

You can't really smear someone who is already the scum of the earth.

Hey bubba, did ya get a chance to see the Conyers hearings today?

No, I'll read the transcripts later. I have better things to do with my time than watch a bunch of admitted socialists conduct a witch hunt.

If not how about Bill Moyers tonight with the author from the New Yorker Magazine?

From the promos I don't see anything new or interesting planned. The facts on torture and GITMO are pretty much all out.

Dont flatter yourself bubba, I RARELY read the entirety of your articles, I am here for amusement, and I pick and choose what I want, and boy do you amuse me!

And thus you make uninformed comments and chortle moronically to yourself while you look like a fool. And since you don't bother to read my articles I'm not going to waste my time responding to most of your comments. If you don't know Alex Jones' prejudices or are in denial about them, go read one of his websites or listen to his show.

I understand that you glory in your own ignorance, but you might at least try to know something about the people you look to as heroes.

Dave

Dave,

I see that you still have not answered my questions. Typical. As to you not responding to my comments, sure bubba, its your JOB to respond to people such as me, but I hope that you employers give you a break, and you dont have to respond to me anymore bucko.

By the way your shrillness is only getting worse!

"
You can't really smear someone who is already the scum of the earth."

If people such as yourself Davey find him the scum of the earth, it only re-affirms my opinion of Mr. Jones, and he is on the right track! How is your mirror treating you these days, I mean particularly in the morning when you look at yourself? Do you really see a caring, live, vital, compassionate human being full of liberty for the huddled masses yearning to be free bucko? hehehe


YOUR FUNNY DAVE

PS

Now I see why you like Daniel Pipes so much, your both in the same business SMEAR. Big smirk for Nalle.

Clavos,

You certainly do not need me to support the CIA, you do that just fine all by your lonesome.

its your JOB to respond to people such as me,

No. It's my job to make fonts so that video games and books and album covers and movie posters can look cool.

Scoffing at you and the rest of the delusional fringe is just pure entertainment.

Dave

Ooh, exciting news. I happened to be listening to Alex Jones on my way back from Home Depot and he mentioned this article talking about "some guy in Austin making fun of the Bohemian Grove." Looks like I've hit the bigtime or at least his egoscan list.

Dave

Thats almost funny Davey, too bad thats as close as your ever gonna get to the bigtime as a politico, unless of course you count your meeting with the local GOP boys down in Texass, making up the planks of your party! hehe

Oh by the way there is an Excellent article on Jones's site today about, you guessed it, Carrol Quigley, The CFR, Cecil Rhodes, and the great anglo-american conspiracy to rule the planet for the white folks, you know in a neo feudalistic totalitarian manner bucko.

Here is the link for anyone who might be interested, probably one of the more succinct articles on the subject I have ever read.

Article on the great Conspiracy

Oh and thanks for the info about the BG and you and Jones, I think im gonna call him, and offer a bit of my two sense worth concerning the guy on blogcritics, being YOU, and who knows you just might get a flood of new readers on the site, yahooooo, it sure could use some, cause from what I have seen most of the opinionaters on here are LAME, at least in the sense of having any real political acumen; most particularly your henchmen :).

bye Davey boy

Madness.

Yes, of course there's a global conspiracy.

It's made up of capitalists, largely led by Wall St and The City of London who want to make a quid (that's a dollar, for you heathens). That's largely because these two countries and their offshoots have largely controlled global trade, going way back. The reason? Both are maritime nations that have had huge manufacturing industries, and in the case of the US, the largest industrial complex in the world.

But if anyone here thinks that the anglo-saxon nations all sit down together and plot ways of controlling the world, sorry ... you are sorely mistaken.

Unfortunately for the CTers, this global capitalist "conspiracy" is what it takes to make our societies operate ... and without it, we are nothing.

Anyone advocating an end to all this is advocating a return to coonskin caps, collared greens and grilled possum on the tables of Americans.

Unfortunately, this is where the Paulians fall down in their thinking.

Basically, what they're advocating is the modern equivalent of the flat-Earth society imposed on the country that benefits most in material terms from its own global trade policies.

It worries me when I see people gaily wearing tri-corner hats (and ray-bans) at a protest in Washington that they have no concept of what is really at stake for their own country should any of this actually become reality.

STM,

Why dont you at least take the time and read the article? Or is your mind so closed it has no room for growth?

Pablo, i don't think you get what STM is saying. He's acknowledging the existence of your conspiracy - though I think he'd agree with me that it's hardly conspiratorial in nature - and he thinks it's a great idea.

Dave

After having read the article, I concur. of course the wealthy seek to consolidate control and power, as well as wealth - that's what the wealthy (and/or powerful) have always done, since time immemorial.

For more than a hundred years now, the world has enjoyed explosive growth in commerce and in the total wealth of the world. This growth is most evident in what Stan likes to refer to as the Anglosphere.

Sure, the wealthy are cornering their share. So what? We're all benefiting to one degree or another, and free trade (a term used repeatedly, but pejoratively in Pablo's cited article), has been instrumental in helping to spread that prosperity far more widely throughout the world than anything else in history.

What's not to like?

Free Trade is quite rare though, isn't it? Most governments, including the US, interfere with free commerce through the use of subsidies, taxes and other indirect ways of controlling the movement of goods.

True, Christopher, and to the degree with which it is interfered, its efficiency is often substantially reduced.

I don't advocate complete laissez-faire free trade, however. I see the government's role in commerce as guardian of the rights of the population, and to that end, I endorse its limited regulation of trade to ensure that safeguarding.

In particular, I object to government interference in the form of protectionist duties and taxes; these generally serve no positive purpose and wind up inhibiting trade between nations.

One of the potentials of reasonably "free" trade between nations is the capacity for enabling less advantaged nations to increase their aggregate wealth, something they are unlikely to achieve by attempting to be self-sufficient.

A classic success story that illustrates this point is Brazil. Brazil has more progress still to make, but it has mastered the principles and is growing more rapidly than most other third world nations; it is now immensely more wealthy and prosperous than it was in the early 70s, when I first started traveling there.

Chile, which is further along than Brazil, but still has a ways to go, as well, is another good example.

Though not actually a third world nation, China's explosive growth in recent years is also fueled primarily by trade across borders, in its case with nearly the entire world. Interesting that a Communist nation is mastering and adopting the principles of capitalism as adeptly as the Chinese are.

Clavy said:

"After having read the article, I concur."

Would you like me to research your past statements, as well as your cohort on this forum regarding your responses to Quigley, Chatham House, Cecil Rhodes, and the CFR bubba?

The article that you concur with is excactly what I have been saying for the past 7 months on here, and YOU and your cronies have done everything in your literary power to claim it is paranoia and not true. I am not talking about the ultimate goals of a one world totalitarian dictatorship run by these fellas, but by YOU and your cronies denying that there was ANY conspiracy by the above referenced groups, that are ALL allied.

Kind of reminds me on how YOU Clavy said that you saw the film that I referenced about how al-qaeda was created by the FBI "The Power of Nightmares", again saying that you agreed with the film.

Again Clavy, as I have been saying for the past 7 months on here, that group was created by British Intelligence and later handed over to the CIA. Al qaeda is a MYTH.

thanks for re-affirming what I have been saying on here all the time. For what its worth Clavy I never had any doubt that you would support them, not that your an "elite" but your one of their court courtesans as it were.

I have known all along that you and Davey support them, which is where a little bit of my rancor comes from, the rest of it comes from the way I have been treated by you bozos. Don't worry more rancor to come soon bucko.

Dave RE post 33:

This is the third time I am respectfully asking you to respond to your claim about Jones wanting to deny people's civil liberties. Lots of slur, lots of slander, but no facts.

It is a very easy question, how about an answer bucko?

Sorry, Pablo, I obviously was unclear in my comment.

What I was concurring with was not the article, but the comments prior to mine.

And, having read The Looming Tower, I do not accept your version (nor your sources' version) of the origins of Al-Qaeda; nor for that matter your oft-stated "translation" of its name, which you claim means "the database," while Lawrence Wright translates it as "The Base," which makes a lot more sense.

Clavy,

The official line about al-qaeda regarding the origin of its name is from the database that the CIA had on them during the USSR-Afghanistan war. I will supply relevant URL's should you want me to from main stream media sources making this claim.


I was however referring to the movie "The Power of Nightmares" that you claimed to have watched, and agreed with (again I will if necessary go back and find your direct quote about it). The claim in the movie that you watched was that al-qaeda was created by the FBI for purposes of the RICO statutes to try to indict Bin-Laden. You were the one that said that you agreed with the movie bucko.

Clavy,

The United Kingdom politician Robin Cook, who served as the United Kingdom Foreign Secretary and Leader of the House of Commons described Al-Qaeda as meaning "the database" and a product of western miscalculation. Cook wrote:

Al-Qaida, literally "the database", was originally the computer file of the thousands of mujahideen who were recruited and trained with help from the CIA to defeat the Russians.


SMIRK

Pablo, I already gave you question all the answers you need on Jones' bigotry and demagoguery. That you can't see it is just another example of the altered version of reality you live in. I might have a little test on it for you later, though.

Dave

Dave,

This is the third time I have asked you politely to explain this statement:

"NH, what would you call someone who wants to impose his extremist version of morality on others in violation of their basic civil rights?"

I still have yet to see you answer it in a succinct and honest way, except for your vague slurs, and innuendos bubba.

Whom does Alex want to impose his extremest version of morality in violation of their basic civil rights?

You mentioned some classes of people, but not in direct reference to the above statement.

Does Jones want to deny homosexuals the right to marry? I dont know, however I have never heard him say anything deragatory about them per se.

Illegal aliens? He wants them to be legal, thats hardly racist, and I have never heard him utter even the remotest resemblance to a racist comment before.

Women? Again I have not heard him say anything negative about women, other than what I have already said before. YOU?

So again I am asking you to please explain yourself in a clear and concise fashion, as I am rather slow.

Or perhaps you just like to sit back and slur people without any proof, or explanation. Thats what I suspect anyways.

Oh yeah did ya get the chance to watch that socialist hearing with Barr in it yet bubba?

Actually Pablo, I did read the article ... every last word of it. But I still don't agree with it, even if there might have been a grain of turth in it 100-plus years back.

There's no doubt that people speaking the same language, and possessed of the exact same vales (on that: the idea of American exceptionalism is a myth that has left too many Americans like the Paulistas deluded) will seek to do the best they can to make sure global trade is ticking over and that we get the benefits of it.

The US and Britain are master traders, much better at it than anyone else on this planet, and we have been lucky enough to reap the benefits.

I am aware of Chatham House, the CFR, the round tables, Cecil Rhodes. The Rhodes scholarship, BTW, for many years has been open to anyone of any race creed or colour, and not just those from Commonwealth countries or the US, so it has no relevance in the 21st century to its notoriously racist founder, who would likely be turning in his grave.

I mean, this is the modern age, for heaven's sake. America couldn't, even if it wanted to, go back to the course it followed previously that isolated it and probably in the process led to untold suffering in this world. It's doubtful that there would even have been a second world war in the near-cataclysmic form it became had the US and Britain been much firmer not from the outset but from the previous conflict - neither of which were started by either country, BTW.

Globalism isn't a product of conspiracies. It's about free nations tradimg - period. The fact that the money is controlled through New York and London is simply a function of how that global commerce came about through maritime trading. Sorry to say it, but in this dog-eat-dog world, only the strong survive, and I suppose the worst that could be said is that in being strong, we've made a few mistakes. Mostly, the US and Britain have been a force for good if you weigh up the checks and balances, so I don't buy the nefarious-meddling argument lock, stock and barrel.

The only thing I might accept here is that we all need to be extremely wary of believing everything our governments tell us, as they been show to be liars in the past and that is fraught (but isn't it great that when they do lie and try to fluff us, they nearly always get busted and exposed by their own people ... us, that is).

I can tell you categorically that as a person from a Commonwealth country, I find the notion that we'd seek to have the US engaged with us in some kind of global conspiracy laughable.

We consider Americans our cousins, the same way we see the British, and doubtless most Americans feel the same way. But the notion that there's some kind of black hand behind our governments and that they all sit down to work out how to run the world is ludicrous. I think people like Jones take a few bits and pieces of history, find some writings that support their point of view, cobble these together and punt up as fact in the hope that we'll all swallow it.

I'd suggest that the links between groups like Chatham House and the CFR have more to do with two nations (and their offspring) who value the concept of freedom through rule of law and personal liberty above anything else. Common language is a key factor here, too. I may be wrong, but wasn't it Talleyrand who suggested that the fact that English was spoken on both sides of the Atlantic would ultimately be key to the kind of future the world would have because the common ties of language, culture, politics, trade and tradition would dictate the two countries would be drawn together for those reasons alone?

I think Talleyrand hit the nail on the head, which is why he's regarded as the prince of diplomats. He'll certainly be remebered as a figure of history long after Mr Jones is forgotten.

Put it this way, in the wash-up of what you guys might think is some kind of anglo-saxon conspiracy, couldn't you do a lot worse?? I'm glad I'm not speaking Russian, Japanese, German or Arabic.

Unfortunately, for those who aren't disposed to what comes with that, free trade between nations and the upholding of those values come with the package.

It's only because we live in such societies that we are even able to have these kinds of discussions where we can criticise our own governments and mouth off about what we think should or shouldn't/does or doesn't happen. I happen to like that concept, so I can't criticise the function of the argument by people like Jones, only the form.

Shit, mate ... try doing it in China to get an idea of where I'm coming from.

I reckon people like Jones have taken their eyes so far off the ball, they don't even know what game they're playing. Doubtless there ARE conspiracies in the world, but I don't think this is one of them - beyond a desire to better ourselves through free trade and political systems that give us the freedoms we enjoy.

So if there is an anglosphere (and there IS, isn't there?) ... then bloody good.

Another long-winded reply, I know ... but that's my two bob's worth, for what it's worth.

@#55:

What's your point? Your source is somehow more authoritative than a Pulitzer Prize-winning, comprehensively annotated history written by an acknowledged Middle East expert and scholar, who actually lived and taught in Egypt?

I don't think so, chico.

Pablo, I already answered your question. Go to Jones' sites. Read the articles there on the homosexual agenda, feminism as a socialist conspiracy, the zionist conspiracy and immigration. If you can't see the bigotry then the fault is in you, not me. Jones is peddling hate and bigotry.

In fact, his anti-corporatism is remarkably similar to that expressed by Hitler and Mussolini. As with them, his goal is to instill fear in his followers to motivate them towards blind loyalty to the cause, the first step down the road to a populist revolution and tyranny.

Dave

Yeah Pablo, I wouldn't be believing anything that Robin Cook says. He's a politician and avowedly anti-Blair. Anything he can say that will tarnish the Blair legacy will doubtless be said.

Besides, even if he's right, which I doubt, you're splitting hairs. Who cares where the name comes from.

It exists as an entity, even if it's only a loose grouping of nutcases with a common aim.

Robin Cook was about the only member of the UK Cabinet with enough guts and integrity to resign because he dissented from the pretext for sending British troops to Iraq.

I respected him for that. Unfortunately, by all accounts after leaving the government he went a bit barking. Whether that had anything to do with the coronary he dropped dead from a couple of years later, I'll leave for others to speculate.

Dead on, STM. Putting aside everything else, what the conspiracy nuts fail to establish is a connection between CIA's involvement in using proto-al Qaeda groups against Russia and the later organization of those groups to launch terror attacks against America.

Dave

Doc. Lol. Robin Cook speaks from the grave, eh? You've gotta watch them pom MPs, they're everywhere except when you need them - even the afterlife.

I did forget that he'd carked it, though.

What I do know is that he and Tony Blair didn't exactly see eye to eye. Pencil INTO eye maybe ...

Perhaps the real story here is that Cook didn't die from a dodgy strawberry at all ...

I reckon because of his opposition to the Iraq war and his vocal criticism of Bush and Blair, he was knocked off by MI6 and the CIA in a covert UK/US operation using a special type of new poison delivered in a pork pie.

STM re 58

You said:

"I'd suggest that the links between groups like Chatham House and the CFR have more to do with two nations (and their offspring) who value the concept of freedom through rule of law and personal liberty above anything else"

You can suggest all you want but the FACT is that these two organizations are for all practical purposes one and the same Chatham House and the CFR.

As referenced on chathamhouse's website: Chatham/CFR

"The American delegates developed the Council on Foreign Relations in New York as a sister institute. Both are now among the world's leading international affairs think-tanks."

You and I see things differently STM, thats the long and the short of it. The Anglo-American conspiracy is very much alive, and contrary to what you might think it does not involve democracy or freedom, but a global oligarchy.

The whole war on terrorism is nothing more than a way to make people afraid, so they concede their rights to the government, and it has worked very well. We here in the states call it the boogeyman.

I do not believe bin laden is a stray from the pack, and the fact that his family was doing business with the Bush's for decades should tell you something, if it does not I suggest that you are extremely naive STM, no offense intended.

By the way I also do not believe that the United Kingdom ever stopped drug dealing, as in opiates, I have almost as much revulsion for the UK as I do for the USA, I am talking about the governments not the sheople.

There is really no point in arguing about it however, we just have different opinions, and I will be happy to leave it at that, if you are, if not, we can debate!

I do not believe for one second that those in power either here in the states or over there in the UK or Australia, want the average farmworker in The Congo to be free, unionized, or with any real civil liberties. I use the Congo as an example is all.

The people in power in the USA and the UK are criminals, thugs, blackmailers, evesdroppers, and are currently engaged in war crimes.

Just my two sense worth

"The people in power in the USA and the UK are criminals, thugs, blackmailers, evesdroppers, and are currently engaged in war crimes."

And those are their good points...

"The people in power in the USA and the UK are criminals, thugs, blackmailers, evesdroppers, and are currently engaged in war crimes."

It strikes me that this applies to many other countries as well, if not to most. Unlike many other countries, we put the jerks into positions of power, and we have the ability to get rid of them; we don't. There are doubtless many reasons, but I would put complacency right at the top of the list, followed closely by a pervasive victim mentality.

Dan

The whole war on terrorism is nothing more than a way to make people afraid, so they concede their rights to the government, and it has worked very well. We here in the states call it the boogeyman.

And those of us in the rational world think that the conspiracymongers are the ones who deal in fear and unreason and try to stampede the people into irrational hatred by making up bogeymen.

Dave

Perhaps the real story here is that Cook didn't die from a dodgy strawberry at all ... he was knocked off by MI6 and the CIA in a covert UK/US operation using a special type of new poison delivered in a pork pie.

Was that last bit meant to be rhyming slang as well, Stan?

;-)

No, I meant yer actual pork pie Doc.

Pablo: "The people in power in the USA and the UK are criminals, thugs, blackmailers, evesdroppers, and are currently engaged in war crimes."

Is there anything about them you don't like Pablo?

Pablo: "I do not believe for one second that those in power either here in the states or over there in the UK or Australia, want the average farmworker in The Congo to be free, unionized, or with any real civil liberties".

Actually, I think Australian governments of certain political persuasions would very much like to see that, and will actively pursue human rights issues such as that in a genuine way - for what it's worth.

Remember our roots ... we have come from a place of genuine oppression, literally the whipping boys of the empire, rather than just having jumped up and down about a bit of taxation :)

From my personal obversations, we might even be the most wary of all the anglo-celtic offspring when it comes to anything that even smells like an authority figure. No government gets away with much here without getting done over eventually. We are a small country, and therefore generally quite well engaged politically. Don't ever get the idea that because we have a union jack in our flag and an alliance with the US that we do whatever we are told. Our thinking isn't tied to what they do.

So while our previous PM and his government might not have cared about such things, others have in the past, and certainly this one does.

On the fake islamo-fascist front, there was an interesting article today on newsmax.com of all places.

"A longtime adviser and close confidant of President Bush funneled millions of dollars in U.S. government grants to radical Islamist organizations, many of whose leaders have been convicted or indicted in terrorism cases in the United States, respected terrorism expert Steven Emerson told Congress last week."

Who is the person? None other than sweet Karen Hughes! Surpise surprise! Like I have been saying for a long time now, the islamo fascists have been created and supported by the republican oligarchy for years! Here is a link to the story for anyone out there with an open mind.

Karen Hughes Funnels Millions To Terrorist Groups

You should see Grover Norquist's connections to them too! Not to mention Suskind's new book alleging the fake letter that Bush and company wrote up trying to connect Iran with Al-Ciada.

A smirk for Davey boy. :)

Yes, we all know Norquist's wife is an arab. What a revelation.

As for Hughes, she goes where people pay her to go, and the state department program that provided grants to questionable Islamic groups has been terminated.

We tried to buy off a lot of people through the state department's grant programs. Some of them were not adequately vetted. Or more likely the lefties at the state department were sympathetic to their anti-israeli causes.

So?

Dave

Davey,

Did I mention something about arabs? Or Grover's wife? Uhhh no I did not. What I did mention was something about his connections to radical islam. You know that radical plan to take over the world and all live miserably happy ever after with Sharia law bubba?

I was more referring to Grover being in 1998 when he became chairman of The Islamic Free Market Institute, also known as the Islamic Institute, and he is deeply involved with Khaled Saffuri, as well as Sami al-Arian. Quite an interesting fella don't ya think bubba? I do. Particularly when looked at in conjunction with his relationship with a certain Jack (hog at the trough) Abramoff bubba. Oh yeah and tommy delay, and uhh a certain Ralphy (angel boy)Reed. Your pals Davey boy? I wonder why I think you might be, bubba.

Hmmm, Texass comes to mind, as well as well as the cia!! hehe

Anywways that Grover is quite the character. Did ya get to watch the socialist Bill Moyers the other night bubba? You know the guy who has people on that are much more intelligent than YOU or me bubba. Anyways, the thing is, it didnt look very pretty about those boys. Kinda really scummy and stuff, as in hypocritical, racist, conniving, oh yeah and republican. Smirk

So no Davey boy, I wasn't referring to Grover's lovely wife, nor was I referring to people that are semites, thats arab bubby, or some would say jew too, take your pick. I was referring to the fake islamo boogeyman that was created by YOU KNOW WHO. :)

Just wanted to clear that up bucko, so you would not come back later and then say I was anti-arab, or a misogynist. We probably both don't like radical islamics Davey, we just happen to disagree on why they are the way that they are. I say its wall street, you say its osama. I say osama works for them.

bye for now Davey boy :)

Oh and on the subject of Bohemian Grove, I wonder if you are familiar with "The Franklin Coverup". It was written bay a former republican legislator from Idaho. the book is about pedophilia and a certain Lawrence King who made a presentation at the GOP convention in 1984. Well according to the book, King was involved with mucho pedophilia and drug use with high ranking republicans. One claim in the book is by a boy who claims he was taken to BG and witnessed a boy being sodomized and murdered.

Here I will provide (do your homework for you Dave) a link to the movie that was originally going to be aired on the History Channel, but was censored at the last minute and not shown nationally. The film is poor quality unfortunately, but there is numerous information about the franklin coverup on the web.

Surely your aware of this aren't ya Davey boy? I mean being the astute, opinionated (cough) right wing kinda guy that you are. I will sit back and wait for the derision of the claims made in the Franklin Coverup, bubba.

Boy some of the air in certain of the republican dark alleys are startin to reek. Anyone else out there gettin a whiff of it too?
Conspiracy of Silence

Pablo: "Connections to radical islam. You know that radical plan to take over the world and all live miserably happy ever".

Hmm. That might be the only conspiracy theory of Pablo's that I've seen so far that has a bit of sense to it.

See, those very naughty al-Qaeda-type dudes really are out there. Even the Pab agrees :)

STM

I never disagreed, I just disagree about whwo funds them and whos interests they really represent. Back to the ole City of London brother. :)

Hay Davey,

I noticed a typo in your article bubba. You said:

People having fun just doesn't sit well with the moralistic fascists who follow demagogues like Alex Jones"

Didnt you really mean to say:

People having fun just doesn't sit well with the moralistic fascists who follow demagogues that draw up the republican platform in the state of Texass?

I thought you might have meant to say that, and thought I would offer a friendly correction for ya bucko.

cheers
Pablo :)

Dan re 67, you said

"It strikes me that this applies to many other countries as well, if not to most. Unlike many other countries, we put the jerks into positions of power, and we have the ability to get rid of them; we don't"

It might help if the voting machines worked fairly dont ya think?

People having fun just doesn't sit well with the moralistic fascists who follow demagogues that draw up the republican platform in the state of Texass?


Pablito, as I recall I wrote a whole series of articles about that already.

One of the things which conspiracy dupes seem to be unable to grasp is that the fact that one group or person is oppressive or destructive does not mean that those opposing them are not oppressive or destructive too.

Dave

And Pablo, any crazy person can make up and publish any damned goofy claims they like. And there are people out there like you who will read their rantings and take them as gospel with no critical consideration whatsoever, justifying their rat-brained efforts.

Dave