The hint is, its generally a lot more effective to criticize China on something that's not done at least 10 times the rate by your own country...

Criticize China on human rights because your own country is suppose to have it, but criticize China on selling weapons to African countries? Give me a break, even Lord of War don't do justice to the statistics on how many African "freedom fighters turned terrorists" got armed by the "free world"

1) 10 x the rate? Really? Heh. Hmmm... the arms ship is off to Angola, whose insurgency was armed decades ago by China.

2) Many of us who complain on Chinese arms in Zimbabwe have been as vocal on Western arms going to places like Equatorial Guinea and even going all of the way back to the apartheid-government of South Africa.

3) Unfortunately a blind tribalism has descended across many Chinese, which prevents even sensible criticism of their own government for meddling in the internal affairs of other countries despite the Foreign Ministry's boilerplate rhetoric to the contrary. The East Is Red! Hoist High the Red Flag!

iewgnem,

Fareed Zakaria writes in his Newsweek column that boycotting the Olympics because China "buys oil from Sudan carries the notion of responsibility too far. After all, the United States has much closer ties to Saudi Arabia, a medieval monarchy that has funded Islamic terror. Should the world boycott America for this relationship?"

I completely agree with Zakaria. China is not the only country that arms dictators and supports rogue regimes.

But the fact that America does this doesn't mean that China's government should be free to do the same without anyone criticizing it.

I'm from Bosnia and Herzegovina and last time I checked, my country wasn't involved in arms deals around the world like your "free world" country.

I hope you would agree that this gives me the right to criticize China for supporting one of the world's worst dictators.

Savo Heleta:

you definitely absolutely have the right to criticize China, everybody has. I may do not agree with what you said, but I agree that you have the right and freedom to speak. It has nothing to do with your country is involved in similar activity or not, because some countries have the ability to do that, some countries do not even have the ability to do that. But all people of all countries have the right to comment.

I would like also to read your criticize on other countries who did and are doing such things. Can you write some?

Peace,

I write about other countries too. Check out my Blogcritics Writer page.

I cannot believe that the Western world, all these countries that fight for "peace and democracy" cannot find 24 helicopters for the Darfur peacekeeping mission.

Savo

#1 --iewgnem

Criticize China on selling weapons to African countries? Give me a break, even Lord of War don't do justice to the statistics on how many African "freedom fighters turned terrorists" got armed by the "free world"

Using the Lord of War and the "free world" as excuse for China's actons in attempeting to sell arms to a county that is most assuredly the worlds worst thing that could be done to a people at this moment in time is a chicken shit way out of addressing China's actions.

I'd really like to here your spin on this one and defend China without bring up any other country. Justfy Chinas actions without bring up another county.

Savo, good opinion piece.

One thing that has become apparent is the Chinese protesters showing up to counter the torch protests. There are reports coming in that state China has sent members of its military in civilian clothing to countries to out protest the protesters and that the same thing is happening inside China as well..

I think national pride is a good thing. And I think China is united more in this then the West is in their nations. The main differance being that China holds its people under intense and strike information control where in the West they do not. So is Chinese nationalism the free will or controlled will of the people or for them, dose it make any difference, and how positive or negative is that for them and the world.

Clearly China is a growing monster and the 21-Century will belong to them. It is estimated that in 20 years there will be more automobiles in China then in the USA, and their demand for oil will be 30% greater then the USA. Hence there willingness to make arms deals and oil deals regardless of repercussions or consequences today and assuredly over the long term as well. But as the US has found out on more the one occasion, arms deals made today that worked in its favor at the time, don't always work out that way over time. I expect China too will learn this lesson the hard way. You know, the Muslims want to convert them infidels too.

peace

What is your opinion on China sending these arms to Zimbabwe at this most crtical time for its people. Leave other countries out of your answer. Comment on Chinas actions this time.

China has behaved badly and needs to be shunned.

China is however following the example of global leaders including the U.S.

They must however be held accountable. The only problem is that no one holds the moral position from whence to make the demand.

Franco,

I do not like any country sell weapon to any country. That is not good to me--peace:). I always say no country is perfect. Many countries sell weapons to China too, I know you know many of them on the list. Some of them shall be very familiar to you, right?

I just do not like some people just focus on China on everything she did, looks like China is the only or most evil country in the world. Actually, many countries, especially those acting as the world's moral models now, they did and are doing a lot of more evil things to the world. Very evil.

#10 - peace

I just do not like some people just focus on China on everything she did, looks like China is the only or most evil country in the world. Actually, many countries, especially those acting as the world's moral models now, they did and are doing a lot of more evil things to the world. Very evil.

Thank you for confirming that you are incapable of fair and honest play and leaving other countries out of your answer in your relentless efforts to try and paint China as the lessor of other evils.

Neither this opinion piece, nor my comment even suggested focusing on China on everything she did. That is a fallacious statement on your part to serve your ongong one sided and faults propaganda.

If we wanted to list out all the evils she did it would take far more space and words then this thread could hold.

What makes your answer weak and cowardly is your trying to claim that you do not like people to focus on the evils of China because you say other countries are a lot more evil. The fact is that the "the other countries" you refer to as being a lot more evil, are counties that operate under a world wide free press spot light and in fact allow full and open opposition from its citizens to criticize it.

This immense freedom of information and freedom to criticize it creates a huge spot light worldwide where all of its evil dirty laundry is hung out for the world to see, thus making it an easy target to make criticism against, which is exactly what you have attempted to do in your answer in Chinas defence.

The sickness in your answer is that China dose not allow its self or its own citizens to subject it to a free press and open oppistion from its critics and this creates a huge black hole of darkness with little light if any for the world to see it in the same freedom of light as the counties who do.

Its easy for you to say other countirs have a lot more evil dirty laundry when its out there for all to see, but how you can even try to justify China's dirty laundry as being fare less evel when Chian won't let their citizens or world even see theirs, makes you out to be either intellectually disadvantaged, or worse, just like your oppresse Chines leaders and playing the same propaganda lie game they do.

Either way it shows that you do not have the maturity to even know or to understand that people see right through your bull shit and are not afarid to call you on it. It also shows you like an oppresive government suppressing freedom of information to the world so you can look better for it. What utter insanity.

If China was as fully and completely exposed to the same freedom of information and full opposition from its citizens as the counties you call more evil, I venture to assert that China would be so utterly mortified it would have to hide its face in shame. Until you have the courage to face this shame and make the necessary changes to it, if will firmly remain yours to bear.

I say up yours and your twisted propaganda games. You are no different then your oppressive leaders while trying to make yourself look more righteous via the forced oppressing of information.

This either makes you a bigoted and biased propagandist that is ether internally, or unintentionally, performing just exactly like the oppressive Chinese government hiding all their sins while pointing fingers at those who are willing to allow their sins to be made public.

You are a hypocrite for attempting to make this comparison, and a gutless one at that. You can have your faults hypocritical Chinese national pride if you choose, but it you want the real thing, you'll have to try being honest for a change. It's the only way you or China will ever get the real thing from the rest of the world.

Franco,

" Leave other countries out of your answer."

Can a discussion on right vs. wrong exclude consideration of all that has been performed by humanity except that one act that is being discussed? Is it even possible to discuss morality or good vs evil, without a gauge of sorts?

So if the question is, "in as far as powerful nations are concerned, how wrong is China"? We would have to look at what powerful nations have done throughout history.

The discussion changes if the question is, "should powerful nations sell weapons to dictatorships or dangerous regimes"? We'd then have to define what a dangerous regime is then answer the question.

We would yet have another exchange if the topic was "should China be held to a different standard than everyone else?".

Which if any of these discussions are you wanting to have Franco.

Franco,

I think that if the U.S. intelligence community were to reveal its activities over time, we would have a great deal to be ashamed of as well don't you think?

Much if not most of it has been revealed over time. You would have to be living in a cave to not know what is going on. And I never said once tried to hide or cover up our mistakes.

Interesting that you still found a way to kick the USA from within the context of my point.

Like peace said, I just do not like some people just focus on China on everything she did, looks like China is the only or most evil country in the world.

Well Zedd, I don't like some people just focusing on the USA on everything she did as their excuse, especially when they have none.

In your earlier post #9 you stated

China has behaved badly and needs to be shunned. China is however following the example of global leaders including the U.S. They must however be held accountable. The only problem is that no one holds the moral position from whence to make the demand.

I can not agree with your statement. China is following the course they want and have chosen for themselves and they and they alone are responsible for it. In light of my long post to peace, what ever evils lay in their course, the people will have nothing to say and it will be kept from the sociity and from the free press of the world. Those attempting to address any of these evils are subject to state exicution.

For these reasons and others I also do not share your position that the problem is that no one holds that moral position from whence to make the demand. I will take the side of the government that allows a free press and free society to challeng its evils without fear of imprisonment or execution over one that does not.

I will hold with that government every day of the week and twice on Suday. I will do what I can to make it even better.

Until China can get to that point, the US and other free contries hold the higher ground.

Franco,

If your definition of being capable fair and honest is: "you are evil, you are evil, you are just evil, you are everything but good, because you do not have free enough press like western country, because of I hate you, I hate you, I just hate you..."

Then I am not in that category. And I am not capable to argue with you. But I do understand all-the-time-angry type of people, so I am with you, free press, free to bed, oops, wrong, should be free to bet, oh no, free Tibet, that is right, finally. How about free china, that will solve all problems, and happy ever after.

Free press is your main point in your argue, could you please write something on how really free the western press is, how it is not manipulated, and how fair the report on the countries they do not like. Also, how fair they report the protester and supporter of the torch relay. Maybe Chinese government can learn and start to do right thing, then you will be a hero that solve the evil problem of the world. How nice that will be.
You can use your own country's press as example too to teach us some lesson too.

Franco,

I am glad that you read a lot more from my few sentence comment than myself. Very glad to give you this opportunity to make yourself feel good.

Franco,

On this subject, selling arms to irresponsible parties, no one stands in the position to criticize.

I agree on: "I will take the side of the government that allows a free press and free society to challeng its evils without fear of imprisonment or execution over one that does not. "


But since we are not discussing that on this thread, we are no better on the arms thing. You would agree I presume?

#15 -- peace

Free press is your main point in your argue, could you please write something on how really free the western press is, how it is not manipulated, and how fair the report on the countries they do not like.

When I speak of the free press, I speak of it in conjunction to a free people, and the rights those free people have to protest the government and also protest the free press it self.

When I speak about this freedom it also includes unrestricted internet access to do your own research and check out opposing press reports, even Chinas state run press, and checking opposing views and the freedom to disscuss/debate that information unrestricted by the government in open blogs where free people can come from all over the world like this blog, and do all of this without fear of goverment imprisonment or execution. Do the Chinese people have all that same freedom and protection?

You make the assumption as if what every is said in the free press is the whole truth and with out its own agenda. It is not, and the evil intentions that my be in its agenda can be challenged by a free people, which they do, and they are successful in their efforts, and with out the risk of imprisonment or execution. Do the Chinese people have all that same freedom and protection?

Also, how fair they report the protester and supporter of the torch relay. Maybe Chinese government can learn and start to do right thing, then you will be a hero that solve the evil problem of the world. How nice that will be.

As far as the torch relay, I would ask you to provide a link to what you consider an unfair report by the free media so we can discuss/debate on an actual and specific concern of yours. That will make for clarity of your concerns.

As far as the rest of your above statement is concerned, IMO it reveals a cynicl attitude that only promots the dark side of your own denial and or apparent inabliity to do your own research for the cause of the Chinese people who are confined from this freedom by their goverment who is afaid to allow them the right to be just a free to enter this blog and say what they want to say.

Why is it that I, an America, have to defend your own people and you only talk cyniclly?

#17 Zedd

On this subject, selling arms to irresponsible parties, no one stands in the position to criticize.

If that is true, then what's the point in trying to discuss it. Let everyone do what the hell they want. Sorry Zedd, I can't side with that logic.

But since we are not discussing that on this thread, we are no better on the arms thing. You would agree I presume?

It was you who brought up this discussion in this thread and you addressed it at me and I answered you.

As far as we being no better on the arms thing I would defer you to the first comment I made above in this post and add this. The world is not perfect and never will be, and arms will be manufactured by both free nations and dictaroal or communist controlled societies. So I will side with the arms sales that are conducted by the government that allows a free press and free society to challenge both the government and the free press of any of its evils without fear of imprisonment or execution over one that does not, like China and Russia and the dictators they support.

Franco

"So I will side with the arms sales that are conducted by the government that allows a free press and free society to challenge both the government and the free press of any of its evils without fear of imprisonment or execution over one that does not, like China and Russia and the dictators they support."


Are yo suggesting the we sell arms to the good guys only?

Again I will say that we don't so we cant judge China. You have no one to side with in other words.

Again I will say that we don't so we cant judge China.

OK, lets have it your way, let anybody do what the f**k they want because there is no lessor evil to side with, in your opinion.

Franco,

How about everyone ceasing to sell weapons.... It seems as though you cant entertain this idea. Why?

Franco,

I've thought you are not an American, if that thought hurt your feeling, I am so sorry, very sincerely. How sincere? Just as strong as in your mind how evil China is, is that strong enough?:)

Since you criticized me a lot about my not-fairness, and you also showed that you are such a fair person in thinking and talking, and most importantly, I like to learn and correct my wrong thinking and doing, so please give me a chance to try to say something a little bit fair, or tiny fair, or tinier, or tiniest fair, in #10:
I said:"I do not like any country sell weapon to any country. That is not good to me--peace:). I always say no country is perfect. Many countries sell weapons to China too, I know you know many of them on the list. Some of them shall be very familiar to you, right?" Does that show that I am learning to be fair thinking?

All your comments are wonderful, piercing to my ugly, evil, manic mind, from my comment on selling weapon, you can see China's press is not free at all and criticized me so nicely, very impressive,very impressive indeed.


Can I dare to give you a little suggestion, if you listen to and learn a little bit logic thinking from Zedd, I will call you Mr. Perfect.

#22 Zedd

How about everyone ceasing to sell weapons.... It seems as though you cant entertain this idea. Why?

I'll let you try and convince me of that argument. Lets get right to it and start with Iran and the bomb.

It would be nice to see all the weapons beat into plow sheers as the Bible says when Christ comes back.

Since the dawn of time, man has made, used, and traded weapons to survive,protect himself, or to attract and destroy an enemy for there whiskey and women. That fact has not changed for one day in all this time right up to this moment.

It's not that I will not, or can not entertain this Bible retort to arms, it is that all around us the arms are increasing in number not decreeing. The more arms that fall into the hands of those who wish to do me, my county, or my friends harm, the more I want to be sure they are protected. Sometimes arms sales make strange bedfellows.

Just a few days ago we saw Africa responsibly turn away the latest mega arms shipment in recent times headed to an Africa dictator to use on his people. I was impressed with Africa turning away this Chinese shipment of arms. It showed the highest moral character and this sent shame into the face of China, which was in itself enough of a world statement on the issue. Hopefully we will see more of it in other parts of the world. What will become of those arms as they currently ferry portless at sea, and whom they will end up going to is yet to be known.

Additionally, the 100,000 new AK103 Russian assault riffles with night vision along with the additional 25,000 special issue Russian night vision sniper rifles, all of which recently arrived in Venezuela's for its dictator, are only the start of those arms sales and there build up. Russia also sold Venezuela the license to install their own factory with all the Russian machinery and tooling in Venezuela to produce their own AK103 and ammunition with grade launchers. The factory, when completed, is estimated to able to produce up to 10,000 assault rifles per month, X 12 months for a convincing total of 120,000 per year without running a night shift. All destine to disappear into the jungles hence never to return again. All stuff I am sure that is needed to benefit all of Latin American under Uncle Hugo. Where will all these weapons go and in who's hands is anyone guess. But by just looking as Hugo's best friend list we can make an educated guess. As long as these kinds of people have power and access to weapons, those who are my friends I want to be able to help them defend themselves when they ask for that help.

If you have ideas for how an international ban on weapons can be put into place to handle all the good, bad, and ugly under one roof, I will not stand in your way, but the answer will not come from man.

peace,

I am sorry, I do not understand what you mean in your last post.

Do you mean that you believe that the Chinese people are free to express all of their views, even views that crtiisise the goverment?

And do you believe that the Chinese people are complety free to unresticted internet access?

Franco,

Did I even say anything about China's press freedom before you throw those stones at me?

Will you believe me if I tell you that people can find a lot of post, comment criticizing Chinese government and corrupt officials, and many corrupt government officials got arrested because people disclosed their crime on internet first, then people got angry, then government start to investigate, then bad guys in prison? The government does restrict the internet users to access some political website, not all of them are bad, but you do know many political website are full of news with no basis, right? The freedom of accessing website definitely should be improved more, but not to the level that everybody can access erotic website freely. Blah, blah,I do not like to talk about these things because I do not think you will believe me base on your attitude, and you can not read Chinese website.

Many people think that Chinese people are living in hell because of the communist government ( do you really believe that the Chinese government is still a real communist government?), actually, only Chinese people can know what their real life is now, it is getting better and better quickly, and we do not expect to be a country like America in one day, for everything. Things need to be changed gradually, safely, we all know the consequence of the tremendous change of the Ex Soviet Union. Only ordinary people will suffer because of that.

Could we look at the human component here please?

The people of Zimbabwe don't care whether "Made in China" or "Made in the USA" is written on the bullet. We don't want to be shot by either of you!

Chinese guys here, this isn't a competition between you and the USA! Talk to the Zimbabweans about why you sent these weapons. Reassure Zimbabweans you will send no more.

We will accept your apology and reassurances but we need hear them from you.

Chinese guys here, this isn't a competition between you and the USA! Talk to the Zimbabweans about why you sent these weapons. Reassure Zimbabweans you will send no more.

We will accept your apology and reassurances but we need hear them from you.

Excellent comment. Question is will they do it.

This just in: Chinese Arms now to be flown in to Zimbabwe

New arms for Zim being flown in

Pretoria - A second shipment of considerably-more-sophisticated Chinese weaponry destined for Zimbabwe will be flown to Harare from China within the next week.

It was going to be taken by aircraft to expedite the delivery and to circumvent the controversy around last week's shipment by sea.

The decision apparently was made on Monday by Zimbabwean military generals during an emergency meeting.

This Just In - Robert Mugabe link to Chinese Amrs firm

When Levy Mwanawasa, the president of Zambia, called on every country in the region to reject it, the ship became an embarrassment to Beijing, which has made a huge political and financial investment in Africa.

Mugabe forged links with the Poly Technologies management on state visits to China. Since Zimbabwe is all but bankrupt, the arms are paid for by barters of agricultural products and raw materials.

Company documents show that Poly Technologies, the manufacturer of the weapons on board the ship, is ultimately controlled by a clique from China's preeminent military clans with close ties to the Communist party leadership and army.

Major General He Ping, the company's chairman, is the son-in-law of Deng Xiaoping, the former Chinese leader; its president, Wang Jun, is the son of a vice-president and a Deng ally. Its upper ranks are stuffed with military veterans and their offspring, who have greatly enriched themselves with arms sales to some of Africa's bloodiest trouble spots.

"China has done nothing wrong with regard to weapons exports to Zimbabwe," said Guo Xiaobing, a researcher quoted by the Guangzhou Daily, in the ship's home port.

"This is only a topic for the western media to use to put pressure on China. There is no United Nations embargo on arms to Zimbabwe, so China's business is legal."

Full Story

The sale was legal but the delivery was poorly timed. There are also question marks about what was used to pay for the shipment.

see here.

Please be clear that Zimbabweans (and others) do not mind whether a bullet has "Made in China" or "Made in USA" on it. We would rather be shot be neither.

Why did Britain leave massive weapons and an airforce to Ian Smiths illegal White Dominion Party, vetoing a UN Security Council resolution proposed by Ghana.

Why did CIA Congo station chief, Devlin, admit on BBC that US President Eisenhower ordered him to assassinate Democratically elected President of the Congo, Patrice Lumumba.

Why did US President Ronald Reagan and Aparthied South African Foreign Minister Pik Botha dress Mercenary, Assassin, and mass murderer, Jonas Savimbi, as a pastor, parade him at the White house, and give him stinger missles?

Because of their thirst to steal Africa's resources.

Now that Zimbabwe is taking their resources away from from American and British companies control, they need all the weapons they can get to defend their land and resources. This is their sovereign right.

The MDC is an EU Working Committee project to implement Settler Colonialism and Imperialism in Zimbabwe and to destroy the only Black African leader that is standing up to European Imperialism.

Right on Mugabe! Right on China!

I didn't know Morgan Tsvangirai was a European Imperialist. No wonder he did not want those weapons getting in the Zim. Hey lets get the Chinese weapons back over there.

But first lets ask the anti-European Imperialist women in Zim who are opposition party supporters who spoke on April 29 of how they had their homes burnt by suspected Mugabe's ZANU-PF supporters

China is Sudan's largest supplier of arms

Sudan is China's largest overseas oil project. China is Sudan's largest supplier of arms, according to a former Sudan government minister. Chinese-made tanks, fighter planes, bombers, helicopters, machine guns and rocket-propelled grenades have intensified Sudan's two-decade-old north-south civil war. All international efforts have not stopped this massive Arab attact on Sudan. The fighting in Sudan's Darfur region rages on, as government-backed Arab militias remove African tribes off their land.

In Sudan, Africa's largest country, China is in a lucrative partnership that delivers billions of dollars in investment, oil revenue and weapons -- as well as diplomatic protection -- to a government accused by the United States of genocide in Darfur and cited by human rights groups for systematically massacring civilians and chasing them off ancestral lands to clear oil-producing areas. The country once gave safe haven to Osama bin Laden and is listed by Washington as a state supporter of terrorism. U.S. companies are prohibited from investing there.

Part of a broader push by China to expand trade and influence across the African continent, its relationship with Sudan also demonstrates the intensity of China's quest for energy security and its willingness to participate in genocide for its own gain.

China's largest energy company is pumping crude oil, sending it 1,000 miles upcountry through a Chinese-made pipeline to the Red Sea, where tankers wait to ferry it to China's industrial cities. Chinese laborers based in a camp of prefabricated sheds work the wells and lay highways across the flats to make way for heavy machinery.

From its seat on the United Nations Security Council, China has been Sudan's chief diplomatic ally. In recent months, the council has neared votes on a series of resolutions aimed at pressuring Sudan's predominantly Arab government to protect the African tribes under attack in Darfur and stop support for militias by threatening to sanction its oil sales. China has threatened to veto such actions while watering down the threat of oil sanctions.

China should be criticized repeatedly and without restraint on human rights issues because of its philosophical predisposition against outside pressure.

Chinese diplomatic experts say oil interests and nothing else plays the only role in Beijing's actions at the United Nations in vetoing international support efforts for Sudan's victim at the hands of Islamic Janjaweed.

In Sudan, Amnesty International reports that the Arab militant group Janjaweed, backed by the Sudanese government, has been systematically kidnapping, raping, and murdering girls as young as 8 and women as old as 80.

The Africans of Darfur and relief agencies say that, far from stopping the Janjaweed, the government is providing them with weapons, training and uniforms.

This is all a win win for China. They get the oil, they get lucritive weapons sales, the weapons are used to expand and protect the oil rich area and their huge investment in it, and this puts China in high standing and good favor with other Muslim oil producing states of the Organization of Islmic Countries (OIC) who favor the Sudan goverments actions.

I personally have conductied international business all over the world. The Chineses stand out as the most ruthless business actors of any in the world. They eat their own. Not only will they make a proftit sufferings of others, they will, with a straight face, try and sell you back the empty skin sack of their victoms. I don't know if it will evcr change, and that makes it a scary country.

Condidering the above facts and my personal expearnce, China is one of the most ruthless countries in the world.

Wow. Zimbabwean election officials must have undergone some rigorous retraining over the last few weeks. It's quite amazing how quickly they were able to declare the result of the presidential run-off, considering the hard time they had counting the votes for the original election.

[/sarcasm]

But but but . . . I thought the wicked and oppressive U.S. was the only imperial power in the world. Was I wrong? Nah.

Dan

I have a lot of misgivings about our willingness to get our financial and manufacturing affairs so intermingled with the Chinese. IMO our China policies of the past few years have been reckless and will be the basis of future problems.