Blogcritics Comments on Do We No Longer Have Great Leaders, and If Not, Why Not?

Comment by Dan Miller on Do We No Longer Have Great Leaders, and If Not, Why Not?

Sun, 27 Apr 2008 08:24:08 EDT

re my comment #49 on debates, and how nice it would be actually to have one: According to a report in My Way, Senator Clinton has challenged Senator Obama to a Lincoln-Douglas style debate, with no moderator. According to the article, "Just the two of us, going for 90 minutes, asking and answering questions, we'll set whatever rules seem fair," Clinton said while campaigning in South Bend. Her campaign made the offer formal with a letter to the Obama campaign. Obama aides said they were studying the letter." The chances seem remote of it ever happening, and if it did, that any network would carry it. Still, stranger things have happened. I wonder if they would agree to specify the issue(s) in advance, or just throw pies at each other. Dan

Comment by Dr Dreadful on Do We No Longer Have Great Leaders, and If Not, Why Not?

Wed, 23 Apr 2008 18:22:36 EDT

I haven't looked it up, but I imagine that either your six missing delegates went to one or other of the candidates who've dropped out but were still on the ballot, or the delegate count (as opposed to the vote count) isn't quite complete. Or, indeed, that the ABC stats guy got his statistics degree from the Online University of Doohickey.

Comment by Dan Miller on Do We No Longer Have Great Leaders, and If Not, Why Not?

Wed, 23 Apr 2008 18:18:02 EDT

Getting back only briefly and rather tangentially to the topic of the article, I submit that one of the reasons we don't have great leaders has to do with the teaching of the 3Rs in school - reading riting and rithmetic. I just looked at the ABC tabulations of the Pennsylvania primary, which show that with one hundred percent of the precincts reporting, Senator Clinton got 1,260,208 votes and Senator Obama got 1,045,444. According to my spreadsheet, that means that Senator Clinton got 9.31% more votes than did Senator Obama, not the psychologically magic 10% "double digit" win proclaimed in the press. Also, while there were said to be one hundred and fifty-eight delegates at issue, Senator Clinton got eighty-two and Senator Obama got seventy (again, according to ABC). The sum of the latter two numbers is one hundred and fifty-two, of which Senator Clinton got 53.95% and Senator Obama got 46.05 percent -- a difference of 7.89%; still not a "double digit" triumph. I have no idea what may have happened to the six unaccounted for delegates, but regardless of that it seems that better grounding in simple arithmetic would be a good thing. Hell, I needed a spreadsheet me self to do the calculations. If a highly esteemed and universally reliable news organization such as ABC can't report based on simple arithmetic, what are we lesser beings to do? Dan

Comment by Baronius on Do We No Longer Have Great Leaders, and If Not, Why Not?

Wed, 23 Apr 2008 17:01:40 EDT

Dan - Yes. Unquestionably, yes.

Comment by Dan Miller on Do We No Longer Have Great Leaders, and If Not, Why Not?

Wed, 23 Apr 2008 16:25:54 EDT

Baronius, I agree that sometimes there is not much of substance for candidates for their party's nomination to debate. This seems to be one of those times. Accordingly, they and the "moderators" have pie throwing contests which, at best, are amusing and enhance ratings. We probably won't have even a prayer of seeing a real debate until the general election campaign starts, and even then it seems doubtful. Let's assume, just arguendo, that someone could come up with an issue; for example, in view of the world wide food shortages we keep hearing about, and the informal rationing of rice and such staples even in the U.S., a debate issue might be framed as follows: "Resolved, that subsidies for allowing agricultural land to lie fallow should be terminated forthwith" The candidates would have to decide whether to support or oppose the resolution, and it would be decided by a coin toss which would be the first to speak (A). He would be given ten minutes and be followed by candidate B. Then A would have ten minutes to respond to B, and B would have ten minutes to respond to A. Then, A would have five minutes for closing remarks, and B would have five minutes for closing remarks. That comes to fifty minutes, and with commercial breaks and what not it might all be crammed into ninety minutes or so. It would probably be necessary for a "moderator," equipped with a large, loud gong to hit when a speaker got egregiously off topic (remember the Gong Show?) and a loud buzzer to announce when time's up, and possibly a burly sergeant at arms to prevent mayhem. There would be no "reporters" to ask stupid questions, and the candidates would have to come up with their own thoughts. There would be no "Senator Clinton, why did you wear a pink pants suit today? Doesn't that mean that you are a pacifist?" or Senator Obama, "why are you wearing your flag pin in your left lapel instead of in your right lapel? Doesn't that suggest that you are a leftist?" Wouldn't a real debate be neat? Dan

Comment by Baronius on Do We No Longer Have Great Leaders, and If Not, Why Not?

Wed, 23 Apr 2008 15:32:54 EDT

Hey. I just went back and read the article again, and there's one more point I wanted to make. Sometimes, there isn't a substantial difference between the candidates. I remember eight years ago when Gore and Bradley debated. It was pathetic. They agreed on everything. So my suspicion is that you could have Obama and Clinton discuss most anything and there wouldn't be much debate. Their positions, or the way they've positioned themselves to look, are too similar. This doesn't have to be the death of presidential debates. I hope that there's enough difference between McCain and Obama to have interesting debates.

Comment by Baronius on Do We No Longer Have Great Leaders, and If Not, Why Not?

Wed, 23 Apr 2008 15:19:28 EDT

Interesting article, but I'm not sure that I agree with it. Fact is, Obama and Clinton have been offered dozens of opportunities to talk about Iraq, health care, and the economy. Another debate featuring those three subjects wouldn't offer anything for the viewers (or networks or candidates). So by all means, let's ask them what they think about Burma, standardized testing, and little flag pins. If they don't like a question, they can say "that's a stupid question". But don't whine about the questions the next day. What does it say about you, that you answer a question you find demeaning, because you're distracted by a viewing audience of 2,000 and Charles Gibson's dreamy eyes? But I agree that a debate can be really substantive. That's really up to the questioners. Let's say the candidates show up and get asked a total of ten questions: - Nafta - US dollar and trade - South American free trade zones - China's human rights abuses and trade - Why they voted how they did on the last immigration bill - How they'd reform immigration - English-only? Bilingual education? - Agri subsidies and trade - Border protection - National ID's It doesn't have to be trade & immigration. It could be any one issue. I just think that one would be a blast because the candidates seem to be talking out of both sides of their mouths.

Comment by Dan Miller on Do We No Longer Have Great Leaders, and If Not, Why Not?

Wed, 23 Apr 2008 09:46:27 EDT

Baronius, Getting back to the subject of debates, here is an article by Clarence Page which speaks to the debate question. I think he hit the hammer on the head with the nail. The debates are, indeed, a media circus, in which whatever substantive issues there may be between Senators Clinton and Obama cannot be ventilated. Dan

Comment by Dr Dreadful on Do We No Longer Have Great Leaders, and If Not, Why Not?

Tue, 22 Apr 2008 21:31:57 EDT

That someone who lives in Fresno looks down his nose at Miami is not only galling; it's bizarre). I just don't like humidity that much, Clav - it has to be mitigated by gratifying quantities of ocean and Pacific Islander hospitality... And you can make fun of Fresno all you like, Clav. In fact I'll probably join you. As you know, our city motto is: 'Fresno: At Least It's Not Bakersfield'. We plan on moving as soon as my wife is vested at her workplace - in about another year and a half. Your Russenmafia dudes would be welcome here too. Show the Hispanic and Laotian gangs up for the amateurs they are...

Comment by Andy Marsh on Do We No Longer Have Great Leaders, and If Not, Why Not?

Tue, 22 Apr 2008 20:39:33 EDT

I figured you heard that old joke I heard years ago...will the last american to leave Miami please grab the flag...

Comment by Clavos on Do We No Longer Have Great Leaders, and If Not, Why Not?

Tue, 22 Apr 2008 20:29:38 EDT

We don't have a "the" flag down here, Andy. Which one do you mean?

Comment by Andy Marsh on Do We No Longer Have Great Leaders, and If Not, Why Not?

Tue, 22 Apr 2008 20:24:23 EDT

Is the flag still down there...or did the last guy take it with him when he left???

Comment by Clavos on Do We No Longer Have Great Leaders, and If Not, Why Not?

Tue, 22 Apr 2008 20:09:47 EDT

No, Andy we don't yet formalize our secessionist sentiments with an annual celebration, but I'm sure it won't be long now. Meanwhile, we have begun to formalize the issue by such actions as teaching English as a second language in our schools, and posting signs all over the city in three languages, with Spanish on top, English in the middle, and Creole at the bottom. And we, too, do not consider ourselves a part of Florida (an idea that is thoroughly and resoundingly reciprocated by the rest of the state, who would be very pleased if our part of the state were to break off and float away, or better yet, sink). Your points about the lifestyles of the Conchs are well taken. That's why we admit them without visas.

Comment by Dan Miller on Do We No Longer Have Great Leaders, and If Not, Why Not?

Tue, 22 Apr 2008 20:02:10 EDT

Clav, My comments in re dissing Miami were in jest, and mostly aimed at Doc. I think I have come to know you well enough to know when you are joking and when you are not. I got the joke. Do you remember the old Jimmy Buffet song, "Everybody's got a cousin in Miami?" As to Soursop Face, I think the question of his extradition to France, which is just crazy enough to want him, is the big hold up. That will drag through the courts ad infinitum or until he dies, which ever comes later. If he does get back to Panama, he probably won't go to jail (he was tried and convicted of serious crimes although not present for the trial) simply because the laws here encourage house arrest for old folks, and he now qualifies. If so, the chances that he will meet with an unfortunate and fatal accident are quite high. When in Venezuela, I met an attorney whose sailboat was docked next to ours for a while. He related a story about Carlos the Jackal, a Venezuelan from Valencia, who had been tried for and convicted of the attempted assassination of the then French president. When he visited Carlos in prison, at the request of Carlos' family, Carlos was clearly the jefe of the jail. He had a palatial suite, and Guillermo showed me pictures of them taken together, Carlos with a shit eating grin and smoking a big cigar. Maybe Soursop Face will like France better than he likes Miami. Dan

Comment by Andy Marsh on Do We No Longer Have Great Leaders, and If Not, Why Not?

Tue, 22 Apr 2008 19:59:23 EDT

Hey Clav - you compare Miami to the Keys...I wonder...does Miami have an annual succession party like they do in Key West? Complete with bread loaf swords and water cannons from the navy? The Keys are most definately not part of the US...as a matter of fact, I don't think they believe themselves to be part of Fl...I mean, smoking is illegal in bars and restaurants in the rest of FL isn't it? Because up until the last time I was in the keys they weren't playing by the same rules. About a year or so ago...

Comment by Clavos on Do We No Longer Have Great Leaders, and If Not, Why Not?

Tue, 22 Apr 2008 19:34:55 EDT

Dan, My comments in re dissing Miami were in jest, and mostly aimed at Doc. That someone who lives in Fresno looks down his nose at Miami is not only galling; it's bizarre). So there, Doc. :>) Although I love this city, I freely recognize not everyone (especially Anglo Saxon Americans) does. That's a good thing, because, increasingly, it's becoming our (Latinos) city. Any day now we will begin to require visas for anyone who lives north of the Dade-Broward line to visit. Conchs (Keys residents) will be exempted, because they, too, are free spirits. Miami is the "best of all possible worlds." It's near to, but not part of, the USA. As far as Pineapple Face: that is literally how everyone around here (especially Paname�os) refers to him, and it's difficult for me to even remember that his name is Manuel Noriega. I believe he is about to be released from Federal prison, or already has been, which was the basis for my question. We grow pineapple, and ripened before picking it is simply beyond description: sweet and flavorful. I know. My favorite supermarket, The Fresh Market, sells fresh Pi�a Paname�a, and I buy it regularly. It's waay superior to the Hawaiian crap sold at Publix.

Comment by Dr Dreadful on Do We No Longer Have Great Leaders, and If Not, Why Not?

Tue, 22 Apr 2008 19:20:19 EDT

Calm down, Clav. Have a couple of Tylenol PM. Or a glass of pineapple juice. Or something... My experience of Miami so far is limited to the (as Dan mentioned) wonderful, beautiful and apparently perennially-under-construction airport. But I may yet make it over there soon: I believe the national annual conference for my wife's profession is taking place there this year, and she wants to make a week of it - possibly with a little side trip to Puerto Rico, where some of her folks are from. If you can point me to a good curry house where I won't get eaten by an alligator, I'll be much obliged.

Comment by Dan Miller on Do We No Longer Have Great Leaders, and If Not, Why Not?

Tue, 22 Apr 2008 19:12:08 EDT

Clav, I don't like any big city; I go to Panama City only under extreme duress and only when under suitable anesthesia. Hell, I don't go to David or Dolega if I don't absolutely have to. Besides, the last time I was in Miami, at the beautiful airport, a bottle of not very good and not very cold beer cost about five bucks. I can get better here for fifty cents. As to Pineapple face, I take umbrage at the appellation. We grow pineapple, and ripened before picking it is simply beyond description: sweet and flavorful. Taken in the right spirit, rum and coconut cream, is the nectar of the gods. Pineapple face, as you so crudely and insultingly refer to him is still in Miami. Panama doesn't want him back because (a) he is hated here and (b) he knows where too many skeletons are hidden. There are many, many public and private buildings named in honor of Omar Torrijos; not one, as far as I know, is named after Noriega. Someday, when you have nothing better to do, read In the Time of the Tyrants by R.M. Koster and Guillermo Sanchez. Noriega is hated and despised by the vast majority here, while Omar Torrijos is loved. His bastard son, who was eight years old when his father died, is now the President, and he is doing a pretty good job. During the presidential campaign, Martin Torrijos relied heavily on his father's memory. One of his campaign posters showed his father, smoking a cigar, off in the mist, looking down with favor on his son, Martin. Dan

Comment by Clavos on Do We No Longer Have Great Leaders, and If Not, Why Not?

Tue, 22 Apr 2008 18:33:03 EDT

That's it. I've reached the end of my legendary patience. If this over-the-top dissing of the country's most diverse city doesn't cease forthwith, I will go to Sunny Isles Beach and sign up some of the Russian mobsters living there for a quick trip to Californya. Can you say Fresno? Harlot's crotch indeed. Crotch this.

Comment by Dr Dreadful on Do We No Longer Have Great Leaders, and If Not, Why Not?

Tue, 22 Apr 2008 18:22:38 EDT

Great curry: Good. Great curry in a climate more humid than a harlot's crotch: Bad. Great curry in a climate more humid than a harlot's crotch in a place that isn't Hawaii or Fiji: Badder.

Comment by Dr Dreadful on Do We No Longer Have Great Leaders, and If Not, Why Not?

Tue, 22 Apr 2008 18:18:50 EDT

Thanks for fixing the link. I must have tried for twenty minutes, and just couldn't see what I'd done wrong. You didn't hit the backspace key. The comments box just interpreted your URL as a really long word, and threw in a soft carriage return...

Comment by Clavos on Do We No Longer Have Great Leaders, and If Not, Why Not?

Tue, 22 Apr 2008 17:40:25 EDT

Ain't no way I'm going to Miami. Why, oh why, does Miami get dissed like that??? Among other things, we have great curry. Which reminds me: Have we sent Pineapple Face back to you yet?

Comment by Dan Miller on Do We No Longer Have Great Leaders, and If Not, Why Not?

Tue, 22 Apr 2008 17:33:21 EDT

Baronius, What if they don't have a sister? Then an intern will just have to suffice. I almost wrote "will just have to do," but that could have been subject to misinterpretation. Dan

Comment by Dan Miller on Do We No Longer Have Great Leaders, and If Not, Why Not?

Tue, 22 Apr 2008 17:29:22 EDT

Clav OK, Clav, sounds great -- but you will have to come to Panama. Ain't no way I'm going to Miami. Doc, I don't know about Miami, but good curry is hard to find in Panama. There is some pretty good curry sauce in bottles, though. There was great curry in Trinidad, where about half of the population is of Indian (from India) descent. Very tangentially, when we arrived on our sailboat, Namaste, the port captain looked down at the papers, looked up at me, put his hands together in front of his face, bowed his head and said "Namaste!" Thanks for fixing the link. I must have tried for twenty minutes, and just couldn't see what I'd done wrong. I hereby acknowledge that you Are Not a Monster, no matter what Baronius says. Dan

Comment by Dr Dreadful on Do We No Longer Have Great Leaders, and If Not, Why Not?

Tue, 22 Apr 2008 17:20:50 EDT

Baronius, What if they don't have a sister?