Dave,

Just a question, and I'm not much into conspiracy theory, but why is the Amazon link associated with your otherwise neat article to a U.S. Flag lapel pin? I don't for a moment suggest that it's a form of subliminal promotion. Perish the thought.

Just kidding, I guess.

The problem is that we, the people, focus on trivia to the exclusion of everything else. That's why we are so fascinated with what flavor tarts the current pop tarts had for breakfast, and which of them is pregnant by whom.

Fortunately, the country has survived this sort of nonsense for a long time and, Ruvy notwithstanding, has a decent chance of doing so in future.

By the way. Were you a Cub Scout or a Boy Scout and did you wear the hard earned (or at least earned) merit badges then?

Dan

I fail to see how a cheap metal ornament made in China is a show of American patriotism. I think Obama is more patriotic for refusing to wear the trinket!

Well done, Dave -- outstanding article and I agree with you wholly!

MY FELLOW "BITTER", STUPID, WORKING CLASS PEOPLE :-)

If you think like Barack Obama, that WORKING CLASS PEOPLE are just a bunch of "BITTER"!, STUPID, PEASANTS, Cash COWS!, and CANNON FODDER. :-(

You Might Be An Idiot! :-)

If you think Barack Obama with little or no experience would be better than Hillary Clinton with 35 years experience.

You Might Be An Idiot! :-)

If you think that Obama with no experience can fix an economy on the verge of collapse better than Hillary Clinton. Whose ;-) husband (Bill Clinton) led the greatest economic expansion, and prosperity in American history.

You Might Be An Idiot! :-)

If you think that Obama with no experience fighting for universal health care can get it for you better than Hillary Clinton. Who anticipated this current health care crisis back in 1993, and fought a pitched battle against overwhelming odds to get universal health care for all the American people.

You Might Be An Idiot! :-)

If you think that Obama with no experience can manage, and get us out of two wars better than Hillary Clinton. Whose ;-) husband (Bill Clinton) went to war only when he was convinced that he absolutely had to. Then completed the mission in record time against a nuclear power. AND DID NOT LOSE THE LIFE OF A SINGLE AMERICAN SOLDIER. NOT ONE!

You Might Be An Idiot! :-)

If you think that Obama with no experience saving the environment is better than Hillary Clinton. Whose ;-) husband (Bill Clinton) left office with the greatest amount of environmental cleanup, and protections in American history.

You Might Be An Idiot! :-)

If you think that Obama with little or no education experience is better than Hillary Clinton. Whose ;-) husband (Bill Clinton) made higher education affordable for every American. And created higher job demand and starting salary's than they had ever been before or since.

You Might Be An Idiot! :-)

If you think that Obama with no experience will be better than Hillary Clinton who spent 8 years at the right hand of President Bill Clinton. Who is already on record as one of the greatest Presidents in American history.

You Might Be An Idiot! :-)

If you think that you can change the way Washington works with pretty speeches from Obama, rather than with the experience, and political expertise of two master politicians ON YOUR SIDE like Hillary and Bill Clinton..

You Might Be An Idiot! :-)

If you think all those Republicans voting for Obama in the Democratic primaries, and caucuses are doing so because they think he is a stronger Democratic candidate than Hillary Clinton. :-)

Best regards

jacksmith... Working Class :-)

p.s. You Might Be An Idiot! :-)

If you don't know that the huge amounts of money funding the Obama campaign to try and defeat Hillary Clinton is coming in from the insurance, and medical industry, that has been ripping you off, and killing you and your children. And denying you, and your loved ones the life saving medical care you needed. All just so they can make more huge immoral profits for them-selves off of your suffering...

You see, back in 1993 Hillary Clinton had the audacity, and nerve to try and get quality, affordable universal health care for everyone to prevent the suffering and needless deaths of hundreds of thousands of you each year. :-)

Approx. 100,000 of you die each year from medical accidents from a rush to profit by the insurance, and medical industry. Another 120,000 of you die each year from treatable illness that people in other developed countries don't die from. And I could go on, and on...

Mr Smith:

If you don't think that anyone with half a brain cell can figure out in the less than a second it takes to Google a morsel of the above comment that you've posted this Jeff-Foxworthy-wannabe drivel verbatim on Democratic Underground and half the internet...

YOU MIGHT BE A SHILL.

One more of these from you, and it'll be goodbye.

{Assistant Comments Editor}

Good try at setting the spammer/troll/shill on the right track. Dr. D. The problem is that the nature of the beast is such that he'll never visit us again.

And let me add that if you think there's a dime's worth of difference between Hillary and Obama - you might be an idiot!

Dave

Dave, it's taken over 400 articles for you to proudly wear the US flag pin on one of your columns. Why so long?

"This issue originally surfaced last fall when Sean Hannity went on a tirade about Obama's decision not to stick a little American flag on his lapel."

Oh...you mean the same Sean Hannity who has evaded service during the Iraq War, while promoting sending others to risk their lives to fight a war he so bellicosely "supports"...?

So, let me get this straight:

My dad was a war veteran that put his life on the line in Korea to protect his country. He refused to wear any phony lapel pin, or wrap himself in the flag every day of his life, or kiss a picture of George Washington and then bend down on one knee while saluting the painting.

Who's more patriotic? A man that put his life on the line for his country and trained others to do the same .....or.....some crackpipe idiot that's never seen a minute of combat but demands that everyone else wear a goddam, BS lapel pin?

Can someone with a brain please answer THIS question?!

You want to know why we are spending 2 or 3 trillion dollars in Iraq? Because the fools that care about the stupid lapel pin got us into this needless war.

They need to be sent to Iraq themselves!

^ Amen, Pete!!

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel."

Samuel Johnson, 1775

True then. True now.

Chris/Doc,

This is the third time this guy has posted this crap; please, hit the delete button!!

Good to see this debate is also happening on the other side of the big pond. I can't cop the 24/7 lapel-pin wearers either.

I wear a pin on Anzac Day (remembrance day), either a little Aussie flag or an Anzac lapel badge. Sadly, some people like to wear the flag badge all year round to mark therm out as "patriots" who care about "Australian values" - whatever they are these days.

In that regard, everything changes over time as more people from all over the world flood into this country - and change it for the better. You might as well ask, "how long's a piece of string".

Good idea to leave the pin in the draw the rest of the year. It does mark you out for other reasons than being genuinely proud of your country, especially in the current climate.

And those who've actually been to war and done this stuff never make a song and dance about it. It's been decades since the war medals have been taken out of the cupboards in our family.

My father in law, a genuine war hero, doesn't even know where his are, and doesn't care that much one way or the other.

I do have an Aussie flag beach towel, though, which gets a fair work out. No problem in irreverent Oz, but I dread to think what would happen to me if I had a Stars and Stripes one and was caught by a patriotic American drying my balls off after a surf.

Clavos @ #11:

Comment by 'jacksmith' deleted and IP banned. He was warned.

Thanks for the alert.

I don't have a Stars 'n' Stripes lapel pin either. There are two major and very good reasons for this:

1. I'm not American.
2. I rarely wear anything with lapels.

I do have a rather fetching Union Jack skin for my iPod, though. And, somewhere, a tie with both the US and UK flags on it.

In Britain, the age of ostentatious flag display is long past as an expression of patriotism. I remember hanging flags out of every window for Her Maj's Silver Jubilee in '77, and similar happenings for Charles and Di's wedding in '81, but since then things have changed an awful lot. National pride is no longer associated quite so closely with the royal family.

What did Jacksmith do?

Obviously not jackshit.

Is it true that Rush Limbaugh has a lapel pin of his medical deferment?

What did Jacksmith do?

Posted the same two comments all over the internet, repeatedly.

I really find it hard to believe that the lady on the ABC Debate is basing her vote for President on who wears a flag pin.

I wonder who she will vote for in that case?

Just for fun do a Yahoo Image search on John McCain or Hillary Clinton. See if you can find a photo of either with a flag pin on.

Seems that Nash McCabe has a real shortage of flag pin wearing candidates to vote for.

Neither the truculent Gibson nor the supercilious Stephanopolis were wearing flag pins either. One wonders at their patriotism.

Well it was bound to happen sooner or later. After reading numerous post by Dave, and maybe agreeing with about 5% of what he writes about, I finally found an article he wrote that I agree with wholeheartedly.

I cant stand the flag pins, it is the MOST fake display of love of country I have ever seen. There is also an underlying message of holier than thou that makes me sick. I already know what country I was born in and live in, and when these ninnies wear one as if they are more patriotic than the next guy its disgusting.

Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel, as has been said many times. They can take their stick pins and put it where the sun dont shine.

Just my two sense worth

DD writes: "In Britain, the age of ostentatious flag display is long past as an expression of patriotism".

We only do it here when we're having a mass punch-up. You know the incident I'm talking about Doc.

Actually, I was ashamed that those people draped themselves in our flag and went hunting people they thought were "un-Australian".

In their idiocy, they grabbed a bloke of Greek background, who was born in Australia, thinking he was of middle-eastern descent.

He was as Australian as the rest of us, as are many people of mid-eastern background.

It was the flag wavers/wearers and drunken street brawlers of anglo-celtic background who were un-Australian that day. I hope they've learned their lesson. A couple were jailed.

My favourite image from that day was a burly police sergeant using his baton to belt off a gang of blokes who were trying to grab a couple of young lebanese boys he was protecting who'd simply gone to the beach for a swim and hadn't done anything wrong.

C'mon people. It's not about a lapel pin. It's about the type of people that Obama asscoiates with and that make up his core supporters. Screw the lapel pin and think about this:

Obama's wife let the mask slip for a moment when she said that "this is the first time in my life I've ever been proud of this nation.

Obama caters to the whacked out leftists in San Fransisco and trashes small town American in a speech to them when he thinks no one will hear.

Obama's preacher and supposedly good friend is a racist whackjob and obama can't bring himself to publically admit it.


Mst of Obama's strong supporters are far far left types who obviously exhibit anti-American hostility.

Does a flag pin or lack of one alone tell us anything about a person's patriotism? No but when we examine the big picture we can see that Obama wreaks of the anti_americanism that characterizes the far left, of which he is a part of, in this nation. All one has to do is to look at Obama's voting record in Congree to see how far to the left he is. He does not represent mainstream AMerica and has to this point been given a pass by the media. He's arrogant, smug, and full of empty platitudes and promises. No substance. This "change we can believe in bullshit," might have worked in the Democrat primaries where every moonbat and his mother lapped it up but the general election will be another story. For the first time in this camapaign Obama gets a couple of tough questions instead of having his salad tossed yet again by the media and what's he do? He's been whining like a little bitch ever since. This is the guy we can believe to get the job done? Are you f-ing kidding? Obama's already beginnning to crack under pressue and Mccain and the gop haven't even started throwing punches. I for one look forward to the GOP taking this empty suit political hack apart peice by peice this fall.

"Obama's preacher and supposedly good friend is a racist whackjob and obama can't bring himself to publically admit it."
- Archie/Bing

Jeremiah Wright's military record:
U.S. Marine Corps, 2nd Division, 1961-63
U.S. Navy, Corpsman, 1963-67

and Archie/Bing...?
(crickets chirping)

What the fuck does that have to do with anything?

Obama didn't serve either [personal attack deleted].


You're just another memeber of the mronoic minions all hopped the stupidity of your fellow Obamabots amid the excitment of the Democratic primaries. You can't even read the writing on the wall. Obama and his sycophants are in for a very rude awakening this fall when they will be forced to deal with the reality that there are actually people in this nation that don't belong to move.org and that they actually vote.

But until then just repaet............

"change we can believe in"

"yes we can"

"hope"

"vision"


ahhh that's better..............

Arguing lack of qualifications is one thing; labeling, stereotyping, and tossing red herrings around--like a neo-Joe McCarthy--is contemptuous, and as "anti-American" as you can get.

If I recall correctly, the flag pin became popular during Vietnam, worn proudly by those we utterly could NOT trust:LBJ and Nixon.

S. Johnson (and Clavos) are right: "ain't I the most pariotic", and religiosity for show are refuges of scoundrels.

REMF's behavior is rather like those who demand the display of a meaningless flag on the lapel. utterly worthless mccarthyesque bigotry.

Dave Nalle, you hit it right on the head. Trinkets like that reek of hypocrisy when the environment is a domestic (read: U.S.) election and the subject is a candidate for office.

Dave, There is at least a dime's worth of difference between Clinton and Obama. The difference is that Clinton has wider appeal outside of the devoted Democrats voting in the primaries. Obama doesn't have a prayer of being the next president -- Clinton has a prayer, however weak.

Staci....you are entirely too reaonable, objective and level headed for someone who claims to be an Obama supporter.

Cut that out.

If I see reasonable people supporting Obama it will start to worry me. Not that I myself am not reasonable where Obama is concerned. I have examined his voting record in congress and found nothing I could in good conscience support.

It's like my good friend Zell Miller once said......."campaign promises tell you who the candidate wants you to think they are, voting records tell you who the candidate really is"


I like my Obamabots kuuuuuuurrrrrazzzzzeeeee

Would it kill you to throw in a "change we can beleive in" or "yes wecan" now and then in your postss staci?

Staci, I know a lot of Republicans who might vote for Obama and very few who would vote for Hillary, except as they did when they crossed over to try to throw the primaries off.

Dave

"What the fuck does that have to do with anything?
Obama didn't serve either [personal attack deleted]."
- Arch/Bing

The difference being, of course, that Obama has always opposed the invasion and occupation of Iraq; while you are a bellicose "supporter" of the war...as long as someone else does the fighting and dying.

"REMF's behavior is rather like those who demand the display of a meaningless flag on the lapel. utterly worthless mccarthyesque bigotry."

Might wanna check the mirror there, war-wimp.

Perhaps the chickenhawks (Cheney, Limbaugh, Hannity, Gingrich, et al) should wear "WORDS SPEAK LOUDER THAN ACTION" pins...

actually Obama totally lost me when his campaign went with 'si se puede' - reminiscent of goni's slick sloganeering...and remember how well that worked out for Bolivia

I have a feeling that if one looked closely enough he'd find the same PRmen in charge of The Packaging...

Actually, I was ashamed that those people draped themselves in our flag and went hunting people they thought were "un-Australian".

I do know the incident you're referring to, Stan. We walked along the cliffs from Coogee to Maroubra the day before the trouble started. Our mates who we were staying with had told us about the territorial surfers at Maroubra, but there was hardly anyone about, either on the beach or off it, when we got there. It just seemed like a ho-hum, sleepy seaside suburb. Who'd have known what was about to happen?

I know exactly where you're coming from. It's the extreme right's appropriation of and ostentatious use of the flag (not just the Union Jack; the St George's Cross as well) that has given it such negative connotations in modern Britain. Really upsets and embarrasses me when it's used to promote values that are the utter antithesis of everything that's right and good about the country.

"The difference being, of course, that Obama has always opposed the invasion and occupation of Iraq; while you are a bellicose "supporter" of the war...as long as someone else does the fighting and dying."



Oh so you're saying that if someone supports something they must do it all the way right? Gee by that logic I guess liberals liek you that support government enitlement/welfare programs which are funded by taxes dollars should give 100% of their income to the federal government. Have you and your good lib buddies been doing that REMF?

"Staci, I know a lot of Republicans who might vote for Obama and very few who would vote for Hillary, except as they did when they crossed over to try to throw the primaries off."


Well Dave I don't know a single one who would vote for Obama in Nov but I do know quite a few that are willing to kiss and make nice with Mccain by Nov and vote for him if he says and does the right things between now and then.

The fact is that Obama and his supporters have developed an artificially inflated ego and sense of impending success during the Democratic primaries. The GE will be quite different...quite a rude awakening for the moronic minions I'm sure.

It's like a JV quarterback who's been kicking ass in all of the JV games. He's got all of the freshman girls thinking he's god and he's got somewhat of an egotistical attitude problem. He's just been told that he's goig to be starting a varsity game. Little does he know what's in store for him. It sure as hell aint the kid glove treatment and thoughtless adulation he's used to.

Well Dave I don't know a single one who would vote for Obama in Nov but I do know quite a few that are willing to kiss and make nice with Mccain by Nov and vote for him if he says and does the right things between now and then.

Arch, if in real life you're anything like the way you are on BC, I'm not surprised. Anyone in your circle who is unwise enough to divulge their intention to vote Democrat at the GE is probably subjected to an eloquent barrage of yelling and contempt and driven off - unless they admit that they might be persuaded to vote the same way as you.

In real life most if not all of the people I know close enough to discuss politics are Republicans. There's no persuading necessary and like I said...they all think Obama is the devil-man.

I don't know what Republicans Dave's been talking to but the Republicans up here where I am, NH, tend to be more moderate than where he is down there in TX. Does anyone seriously think Obama has a shot in hell of winning Texas in the GE? Mccain has a much better shot of winning CA than Obama does of winning Texas. We all know it.

Does anyone seriously think Obama has a shot in hell of winning Texas in the GE? Mccain has a much better shot of winning CA than Obama does of winning Texas. We all know it.

Does anyone else seriously think this means anything besides the fact that you have the analytical skills of a three year old?

"Does anyone else seriously think this means anything besides the fact that you have the analytical skills of a three year old?"

That's certainly a profound rebuttal. Why don't you explain to us how Obama can win Texas. Better yet why don't give give us a quick outline of how and why Odbama will win the different states necessary for him to win it all in Nov.

some aussie, probably STM: "Sadly, some people like to wear the flag badge all year round to mark therm out as "patriots" who care about "Australian values" - whatever they are these days."

far as i'm concerned, that would be a sale on nick cave and the bad seeds.

as for the rest, i'd say obama loves this country as much as anyone, but probably in a more critical, eyes-open way. same way i love this country. it can be a shit, it's overwhelmingly stupid at times, there's a funny odor coming off it and the people are by and large tubby. but whatever, it's mine and it's cute in its own little way. for all its problems, it's still better than most any other place.

wearing a lapel pin simply means you've got something on your chest, nothing more. i'd wear two: one over each nipple.

Dave - I agree that Obama not wearing a flag on his lapel is no reason not to vote for him...I mean, there are so many other reasons not to, that's not even in the top ten...but along the same lines...you stating that you think LESS of a person that does wear one is just as wrong.

I wear one, occasionally, I only wear a suit coat occasionally, but I have a flag tattooed on my chest, so even shirtless, I wear a flag on my chest! I guess it kinda fits...I know you don't think very highly of me anyway!

zing: "far as i'm concerned, that would be a sale on nick cave and the bad seeds."

Lol. Nice one zing.

My least favourite aussie rock star, but I'll give you he's creative.

least favorite? gawd. name me another that's any good. (i'll give you the go-betweens, but as i've said before, australians have NO BUSINESS making music.) :)

Arch hit it right on the head. The lapel pin is just the tip of the iceberg for Obama. His wife's comments. His pastor's comments. His voting record. His own speeches, where when he talks about this country, it's always a negative comment about how the people of this country have been victimized. And of course, Obama is the only person that can rescue us from the current (evil) state of things. Not!

I agree that the wearing of a lapel pin is hardly an indication of anything, not least of which might be actual patriotism. But Obama is no patriot, his brand of orthodox liberalism belies an actual hatred for America as it is, hence "change we can believe in" (but should be scared of).

Doc, it wasn't the 'Bra Boys (the Maroubra surf gang). It was a whole bunch of blokes from Cronulla and some ring-ins who stirred up some trouble after the boys had been on the VB all afternoon.

The Maroubra boys wouldn't do something like that. They are a different ball game.

They claim they're not even a gang, but the standard tattoos are "My Brother's Keeper" and the NSW postcode "2035", for Maroubra Beach. There's been links to organised crime, bashings, stabbings, a well-known murder trial - and mostly NOT involving innocent people.

One night they just happened to be having a party at Bronte on a different floor but at the same venue as the local police, and when the trouble started it was a wild melee, with helicopters, fleets of paddy wagons and a lot of police injured and a lot of 'Bra boys arrested.

One of the leaders of the group, Koby Abberton, who looks nothing like a gang member to me but is is a really tough bugger, is the only non-Hawaiian ever known to physically stand up to Jonny Boy Gomez, the legendary Hawaiian enforcer bully of Pipeline, and remain in one piece. They had a punch up in the shithouse at Pipe and both somehow walked out alive, so the story goes. I'm assured by a couple of 'Bra boys that it's not apocryphal, and I've heard from other surfers too. You'd have loved to have been a fly on the wall.

They are a rough crowd, but not stupid enough to just go around belting crowds of people on prime time TV.

Sadly, I drove down to Cronulla last weekend for the first time in years, and we saw heaps of Aussie flags flying, and hanging from windows, etc.

Unfortunately, it doesn't always just mean patriotism in Cronulla these days. It can also means we don't like outsiders that much, so if you don't look and act like us, too bad and bugger off.

zing: "least favorite? gawd. name me another that's any good. (i'll give you the go-betweens, but as i've said before, australians have NO BUSINESS making music.) :)"

Lol. That's OK zing, I find white American bands some of the most boring, repetitive musicians on the planet, and don't get me started on that other American export, rap music - crap without the C. Give me a good Pommy band anytime. That's where the soul of rock 'n' roll moved to.

White American musicians never quite got up to the bar set by the New York Dolls, although I do love Lou Reed. Don't mind Willy DeVille either.

You don't know any other Aussie bands zing, that's yer problem mate. Get with the program man ...

I met Lindy, the drummer from the Go-Betweens, quite a few times in the late 80s-early 90s, as she was a friend of a girl I used to hang out with. I haven't seen her in years, but she's good value. I love the song Cattle and Cane, but the rest of their stuff I'm not sure about.

I have couple of favourite local bands though. We'll discuss it in a music thread some time :)

oh, i know plenty of aussie bands. problem is, they aren't all that good. gimme birthday party or gimme death. well, not death. they aren't all that good either. whatever.

as for "white american" bands... there's a few too many to say they're all repetitive (try the fiery furnace's "blueberry boat" for detrimentally non-repetitive music) and boring (try... oh, i won't even bother...)

meh. all i got to say is this: blues, jazz, country, r&b, rock, funk, punk, rap, techno... every major musical style of the last century, and guess where it comes from: not australia. bam.

and that bar was set by the stooges, not the new york dolls. (although the dolls were very good indeed.)

i'm sure there are many, many australian bands that don't make it over here, but there's really no excuse what with the internet and file sharing, etc. i thought i would really like architecture in helsinki, but i was mistaken.

hrm. i did forget about hunters and collectors. and aren't avalanches australian? sigh...

Jeez, zing,

Most of your #48 was even more incomprehensible to me than Chinese, but then, I'm a geezer.

Still, I DID find a few words I recognize and love in there:

(in no particular order) jazz (NOT "smooth"), blues, rock (selectively), country, r&b...

zing, you're a prize dickhead :)

We'll do an Aussie rock restropsective right here on this thread if you like.

Given some of the second-rate bands you've named there, no wonder you don't like aussie music.

You don't know shit from clay, that's the problem.

Oh, yes H&C aren't a bad band. Try Ghost Nation - great album.

Out of that era, The Saints, The Church, Sunnyboys, and for a bit of very clever light relief not far removed from Led Zeppelin and The Cult if you listen closely, try The Hoodoo Gurus, and then in the recent era, Regurgitator and The Vines - just for starters :)

We can get into a serious music discussion though anytime you like.

I still reckon white american bands lost the plot 30 years ago and never found it, no matter where all those sounds originated.

Using your "origins" logic, how do you explain the excellence of British rock music compared to American?

There's some great music out of America, but with a few notable exceptions, it doesn't include too many white American bands/artists.

SS sez:

I still reckon white american bands lost the plot 30 years ago

That's exactly what I meant by "selectively" regarding rock in my comment #49.

Most but not all, of the rock I like dates back to 30 or more years ago.

Likewise Clav.

On rock only: I have an ipod filled with American bands from about 30 years back, a bit from in between like Mink deville and Lou Reed, and most of it from that point on that I like seems to be British or Australian, which I'll give zing does sound a bit raw sometimes when you hear the early stuff. I was never a fan if INXS, but I heard them before they were famous and some of their early stuff was great, and I liked the rawness of their pub-style music (which is where most of the live bands played here in the 70s, 80s and early 90s).

I mean, I still like the Doors too, Ramones, some of Tom Petty's music (especially with the Wilburys) and Stevie Ray Vaughn, and the album he did with his brother before he died is great, but a lot of the recent stuff coming out of the states (with exceptions) and labelled as "rock" is crappy.

American blues/blues crossover, though ... that's a different ballgame completely. That is a true American sound, as was the oriiginal rock sound - which is probably why the old stuff is so good.

Buddy Holly rocked.

BTW, I find it REALLY worrying that I'm starting to sound like zing.

Perhaps I should drop all pretence, along with all capital letters.

"...but I have a flag tattooed on my chest, so even shirtless, I wear a flag on my chest...!"
- Andy Marsh

Now if seeing that (not the flag...the floppy chest) doesn't make a guy wanna poke his eyes out with a fork afterwards, I don't know what would...

Sorry about all the repeat posts.

Don't know what happened, but to stop it, I had to close this tab and reopen the thread in a new tab.

Should be OK now...

Mate, these things happen occasionally to senior citizens :)

Mate, these things happen occasionally to senior citizens :)

You should know, mate. :>)

zing's obviously out listening to (non-Australian) music.

Here's a couple of others you should check out beyond those I've listed above, zing (well, you did ask me on a number of occasions so here it is), from the 80s-era.

Ed Kuepper's The Aints; Eurogliders; Do-re-mi, with Deborah Conway (fave album, Domestic Harmony), and not an Aussie band but Straightjacket Fits, from our New Zealand neighbours (album: Hail).

More recently, can't miss the Screaming Jets; and plain old Jet. All good.

The Birthday Party?? Zing, fair dinkum, is that and the Go-Betweens the best you can do?

Hunters and Collectors go OK, but like I say, you don't know sh.t from clay.

The Cruel Sea
Wolfmother
The Presets

Fair dinkum...

At least you know sh.t from clay Doc.

I'm listening to my iPod, on "shuffle," and was just reminded of a genre not yet mentioned that's a particular fave of mine:

ai yai. the birthday party was great! raw, emotional, experimental, and best of all, loud!

the saints/aints/ed kuepper... okay stuff, although each went downhill mighty fast.

if you wanna say "jet," i say get your ass out of your ears. feh! that's some horrible, horrible junk.

and don't even mention new zealand, which is an incredibly creative little musical nation, in the same breath with australia! new zealand has more great labels (full of great artists) than australia does bands!

truthfully, the bands you guys have been mentioning are all pretty much middle-of-the-road, "rawk"-lite. stevie ray vaughan? that's not blues, that's guitar wankery. the vines? radio-friendly slop. hoodoo gurus? no no no. there's nothing there that is original or remotely dangerous.

show me an australian band that is pushing the boundaries of any type of music. really, i want to know.

someone asked about the american/english thing. true, the english do make a lot out of various musics that had their start in america. but i'm not trying to say that american music is the best (the jury's out on that one), i'm just trying to say that australian music, by and large, is pretty awful.

i'm just disappointed, i suppose. even canada has come out with some incredible music in recent years. look at the stuff coming out of finland (not the metal, but the experimental stuff). the south american club scene. japan's noise and metal stuff. new zealand's noise and pop scene. african guitar pop.

but australia? crappy pub/garage rock seems to be their forte.

ahh, clavos, you are right. i forgot about reggae. and i do love reggae. truthfully, some of the best reggae came out of england (although even those bands did have jamaican riddim sections...)

on-u sound! mixing up jamaican riddim and uk post-punk guitar/vocals in incredibly soupy dub productions...

zing, please tell me what white american bands are pushing the boundaries of anything except the damage to my earholes and my sensibilities.

from where I am, I'm only hearing shit from your end, and I want clay ... :)

also, I'm starting to think you don't know that much about music. anyhow, whatever lt is you've been smoking, where can I get some???

zing: "but australia? crappy pub/garage rock seems to be their forte"

lol. possibly ... but if it's true, at least we're having fun listening to it in the pub whilst getting on the soup.

not standing around with our hands on our tonks listening to wankers ... "oh, it's so experimental. what a genius! don't worry about having fun though. that's not what music's for.

"look, everyone's got a long face. it must be good! we're all so cool, even though we haven't got a fucking clue about anything."

Come on zing, give me clay ... :)

oh jesus, surfer, get off your high horse. i know plenty on music. if you want to just sit there are spout of shit about people not knowing anything about music, don't address it to me. that's the shittiest, most juvenile crap you could pull.

that said, if american experimentation offends your sensibilities, maybe it's because your sensibilities are a bit out of date.

here's a list of stuff then: animal collective, microphones, scott walker, hold steady, liars, califone, wolf eyes, lightning bolt, the books, akron/family, xiu xiu, songs: ohia, william basinski... blah, blah, blah.

really, if you haven't heard great american rock in the last few years, you just aren't listening. so much has happened in the last 30 years. the american underground of the 80s was one of the most incredibly fertile "scenes" since rock's initial burst. this decade alone, almost every week it seems, some american band busts open whole new vistas on rock, but you wouldn't know, as you're listening to tom petty and the doors.

i, on the other hand, am seriously asking for some good australian music. something that moves in a way we haven't heard 100 times before. something with a new perspective (and not just an australian perspective...) something that doesn't just ape what americans and the english did 20 years ago (and better).

The old man just finds it difficult to admit not everything in the land of Aus is brilliant...

"lol. possibly ... but if it's true, at least we're having fun listening to it in the pub whilst getting on the soup."

that's fine and all, but it's nothing original. hold steady, mentioned above in my list, is a bar band extraordinaire, up there with bruce and the replacements in the sloppy/sublime. but they combine that with some seriously thoughtful lyrics and a literary grasp of storytelling.

experimentation does not have to equal dour, expressionless music.

animal collective have a supreme sense of whimsy, and an almost child-like fascination with exploring new boundaries within a pop context. their enthusiasm is infectious.

xiu xiu push beauty and ugly into a corner and beat emotions out of it. sometimes, the emotion is so strong, it gets difficult to bear. if "naked honesty" means anything, it's xiu xiu in their lyrics. their music, however, is all rough contours put in the smoothest of pop placements.

the microphones veer all over the place, from heavy rock to the lightest folk, white noise to pristine pop. and they do this all within the same song at times. live, it's usually short, didactic, strangely innocent acoustic musings, while on disc, they show themselves to be masters of recorded sound and songwriting.

lightning bolt record all of their stuff live anyway, but seeing them live is certainly an experience. no one gets to stand around at their shows. they take place in the middle of the floor with the audience surrounding them--they being just a bass and drums. if you can stand throughout the whole show without being trampled, consider yourself a lucky man. no boredom here, and surprisingly sweet melodies develop out of the maelstrom.

Dave,

I would then ask, why do you revere Ronald Regan? He was a living, breathing, lapel pin.

Arch,


Bless you. Are you aware that the Republicans want Hillary to win the Dem nomination? Do you know why?

Bless your heart.

"The old man just finds it difficult to admit not everything in the land of Aus is brilliant..."

Two words: Paul Hogan

Only know Hogan from the Croc Dundee movies, don't you, El B?

Poor fellow. How you've missed out...

No, I've seen his show before. I'll give you amusing, but if you think those clips are brilliant, you obviously don't use the same definition of the word as we do in America.

Well, he's not Charlie Chaplin, I grant you, but those clips show that he's not the antithesis of brilliant either, as your invocation of him seemed to imply.

And, coming from a country which produced Kenny G, you're a fine one to talk about brilliance, musical or otherwise...

Rose writes: "The old man just finds it difficult to admit not everything in the land of Aus is brilliant..."

Actually, that's not true. The worst home-grown TV and some dreadful movies, actors trained in the wooden-Indian school of drama, etc.

But of course, it's "art".

And I don't know that just much about music :)

I'm just geeing zing up because he sounds like a wanker when he carries on about this stuff, especially Nick Cave- like most music writers :)

Music writers can just sit there and write dribble about something that's totally subjective, and people either a) don't understand a word of it, or b) don't understand a word of it and go, "hey man, that's cool".

OBAMA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BUSH IS A CON ARTIST'S AND AMERICA SAY HELLO TO THE AMERO U FOOLS

All those clips show is that Hogan is brilliant at stealing from Benny Hill.

I am not sure why countries have to be brought into it, but if you are still bitter about losing the American Revolution, I know of nothing that is keeping you in the Central Valley.

El Bicho writes: "I am not sure why countries have to be brought into it, but if you are still bitter about losing the American Revolution".

Lol. How many times do you here that one from Americans??

The truth is Bicho, having had the largest empire the world has ever known, and giving birth to America and ALL its institutions (history tells the truth on that one), the Poms probably don't give it a passing thought.

I lived there, and I never heard any Pom even mention it. Mostly, except that they they think Americans have a penchant for big-headed bragging (which is true, and they think Australians are loud-mouthed, drunken oafs, alos mostly true :), I never heard them say anything but nice things about Americans.

But not once did I hear a word about the American revolution. They're probably glad to be shot of ya.

Hye Stan...we love you folks that speak that funny version of American!

Thanks Andy .... i think.

To EB, what you find "brilliant" in America sometimes just leaves us scratching our heads elsewhere (although American comedy is mostly good, I'll give ya that).

But it's horses for courses. I'm not a fan at all of Hogan's movies, but his comedy show here was hilarious. Except, if you haven't been here, it's hard to "get".

I notice you came out of the wordwork as soon as Kenny G was mentioned :)

Aw, how cute. We get to hear from the penal colony, er, I mean, peanut gallery.

"ALL its institutions."

Really? Then I wonder why so many people think the Romans had the first senate. You should straighten them out.

I noticed I was here before Kenny G was mentioned, in fact two comments to be precise, but maybe your sight is as clouded as your reasoning.

Upper and lower legislative houses - you just copied the name from the Romans, you tool.

Yeah, and proud of being the penal colony.

Gives us a much smaller proportion of know-it-all but know-nothing wankers.

I see, the Brits had the idea of doubling what the Romans had previously done and you think they should get full credit. No doubt, you hold in high esteem the cook who thought to add a second patty to create the double hamburger. This does explain you're being so impressed with Hogan, though. Thanks.

"Gives us a much smaller proportion of know-it-all but know-nothing wankers."

That must make it easier for you to remember the names of everyone when you hold your meetings.

EB: "That must make it easier for you to remember the names of everyone when you hold your meetings."

Quite possibly, but how do you cope with the 300 million of you over there?

And yeah, I do think you should give most of the credit to the Poms for pretty much everything about your way of life, your legal system, your personal freedoms, your system of governance.

It certainly owes a lot more to them than it does to a bunch of blokes who were running around in sandals 2000 years earlier with bed sheets tied around their shoulders.

"I'm just geeing zing up because he sounds like a wanker when he carries on about this stuff, especially Nick Cave- like most music writers :)"

i'm not the one writing about the "soul of rock n roll" and "show me some clay" or some such nonsense. meh. and that rap being crap without the c... how old are you? cuz that's a pretty old line.


"Music writers can just sit there and write dribble about something that's totally subjective..."

you realize what you just did there, yeah?

Yeah, zing, I'm aware that most of what I write is crap, dribble and highly subjective drivel. I don't expect anyone to take it too seriously ... and I worry about anyone who might.

But it doesn't mean I can't recognise bollocks and gibber bubbling forth elsewhere like a veritable spring of nonsense (and it don't mean I won't say what I think - about America, Australia, Britain, or anywhere or anything or anyone else).

Having no leg to stand on in relation to that, it's not that I object to so much as the music/arts/film/TV/sports/politics/culture snob "your opinion doesn't count" that often goes with it.

It's always good to have the bullsh.t detector switched to maximum on here, and a must in America.

As for my age: silver-haired, but still surfin' ...

and still listening to good music.

Geez Doc,

I just watched those Paul Hogan clips. The best thing I can say is that Delvene Delaney looks good in the tennis one, but the rest of it's all looking a bit dated. I'm not sure I'd be touting Hoges as a comic genius, although he can be very funny on occasion.

And I'd forgotten about Leo Wanka.

Honestly Stan...I've never met an aussie or a brit I didn't like...now there might be a few canadians....

Thanks Andy,

There's a lot more of you guys, so I can only return the compliment by saying I've met very few Americans I don't like (only one I can really think of actually). Most of 'em I've liked a lot, and I have a couple of friends here - one is a close mate - who are expat Yanks that I socialise with.

I even let 'em put the Stars and Stripes up at my place one year on July 4 for the annual Independence Day barbecue - but unbeknownst to them, we surreptiously changed the design a bit beforehand and put a Union Jack in the corner instead of the stars just to make everyone feel at home as there were Poms, Kiwis and Aussies there too :)

We also put up condolence signs every year marking the anniversary of their great mistake in breaking away from the British empire, but apart from that, it's hot dogs, little star-bangled banners and beer all round.

I do love the place (America). It's just that, well, Americans ARE different ... but only a bit.

I just wish they'd speak a brand of English that you can actually understand.

I was in Germany a couple of years ago learning a radar system so I could write some training material for it later on...one weekend we took a trip to Amsterdam and actually stayed in a hotel outside of it in Breuklin...not sure if I spelled that right...I'd spell it the way they do in NY but I know that's wrong...anyway, we were riding the train into Amsterdam and I met an irishman. I struck up a conversation with him while standing around some of my new german friends...I politely nodded my head as he spoke and when we we got to Amsterdam we left the train and went our seperate ways...that's when one of my german friends came up to me and made the statement that she couldn't understand a word he had said and she spoke very good english. I told her not to feel bad because I only got about every third or fourth word he said either!

But then again...I'm in the deep south this week, in Mississippi and I have a bit of trouble understanding some of these southern folks too!

Andy: I don't think we speak English at all down here.

It's some kind of bizarre codified South Pacific pidgin based on English.

Like your German friend, I blame the Irish. They had half the influence on this accent.

I'm not sure I'd be touting Hoges as a comic genius, although he can be very funny on occasion.

I'm not either, Stan. But neither is he the antithesis of genius, as El B seemed to be arguing.

I remember pissing myself laughing at those shows when ITV screened them in the early 80s. Besides Leo Wanka (Hoges's greatest creation), I recall with particular fondness a skit about the anti-Mastermind 'Thick Head' - a TV quiz competition to find the stupidest person in Australia*, and one about Rolf Harris going into the Outback and 'summoning' a wild Aborigine (who'd driven up behind Rolf in a Land Rover while he was dicking about with his wobbleboard and changed into a loincloth from his t-shirt and jeans... although he'd forgotten to take off his sneakers).

I imagine a lot of the humour was lost on me (and indeed most of the Pom audience) at the time, as I wouldn't visit Australia for another twenty years.


_{* No easy task! ;-)}

Doc: "'Thick Head' - a TV quiz competition to find the stupidest person in Australia*,"

Lol. Well, there'd be plenty of takers :) They could just go down to the front bar of my local pub and get six months' worth of competitors.

Or they could just grab my next-door neighbours.

Or head down to Cronulla on the eve of an immigrant-bashing session.

I do remember that skit though. It wasn't bad.


Even Leo Wanka, which I don't like that much, is a take-off of the mustachioed rescue unit guys, who loved to strut around doing their good deeds.

I guess if you don't know a lot of that stuff, you'd be left scratching your head.

Leo Wanka (actually spelled 'Wanker' in one of the skits I watched last night on YouTube) also used to attempt various Evel Knievel-type stunts, at all of which he would fail miserably.

Did those guys seriously used to whoosh around in the back of a ute with a flashing light on the roof? Where was the fire brigade?

You're right that some of Hoges's material is looking somewhat dated. Even in Australia, I doubt he'd get away with 'sexist' stuff like that pushbike skit nowadays. But that's partly the charm of it. Take his 'Perce the Wino' character, for instance - the old drunk who used to stagger around playing pranks on people with 'The Entertainer' music playing in the background. Somehow I don't think 'Perce the Crackhead' would have quite the same appeal...!

No, they didn't scream around in a ute, but there were three rescue units - police, fire and ambulance, all vying for top spot I guess on the funding tree, plus the State Emergency Service and the Bush Fire Brigade, all of whom used to wear the overalls and hard hats.

They were a common sight around the place.

I believe it's all been streamlined since and while all those things still exist, their roles are much more clearly defined. I remember going to a job once and all five of those rescue/emergency units were there.

We used to joke that they'd all turn up to get a cat out of a tree. And most of the guys working for them were pretty macho dudes.

They did, however, do a great job and saved a lot of lives.

But they did have proper trucks. I suspect Hoges just couldn't get hold of one.

It's Anzac Day here BTW, so there's a pretty sombre mood around the place, which puts all this flag-waving patriotism stuff in perspective.

There are no WWI veterans left now, and the ranks of WWII veterans are thinning considerable. Those men are now in their 80s.

There was a show on TV last night about Aussie Vietnam veterans, who said they could never forgive the peace protesters for spitting at them and throwing pig blood on them. Most of the soldiers were conscripts, drafted in a lottery system.

One guy said he didn't agree with the war either, and it should have been the government the protesters were taking out wrath on.

It's governments that do this stuff.

I notice too in relation to this story that it's never usually actual veterans themselves who are jingoistically patriotic to the point of making the rest of us vomit.

Perhaps they should get out there and put their money where their mouths are.

There was a show on TV last night about Aussie Vietnam veterans, who said they could never forgive the peace protesters for spitting at them and throwing pig blood on them.

Didn't know that happened Down Under, too.

If you know any Stan, tell 'em your Seppo mate says, "Welcome home, Brother."

It's governments that do this stuff.

a convenient scapegoat...it's people who do this stuff

we each have the power to 'just say no'