Um, China does not depend on slave labor for its economic success.

Otherwise, an interesting commentary.

Well I'm from China. But the bad things you said about China don't piss me off at all. Actually this is the best article I've ever seen after what happened in Tibet in March.

Totally agree that among all the constructive pressures they can impose upon China, the whole western world has chosen the most meaningless one.

Actually I've been to Tibet myself and I've seen a lot of local people. The living standard there is way above what it was 50 years ago. But those exile monks who've lost previleges during the economic development process prefer to call this "cultural genocide". Well that's irratating, after all the tax that the chinese government spent in that region, but understandable. They don't own any slave any more they should be pissed off. But the western media, along with their governments seem to favor that phrase and that cause. Well that looks weird.

Well come to think of it, i'm pretty sure the western people are no fool at all. They do this for a reason.

And I think that reason is the only missing piece in this insightful article. Otherwise everything said in here is just perfect.

I think I can see where this is going, Richard. You lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas. Or more to the point, make servile excuses for the Chinese and their shills will stop in to pat you on the back.

Dave

I agree with Richard.

If Western activists really want to "force" China to change, they have to quit their own corporate jobs and stop buying corporate goods.

Otherwise, they are just spending corporate salaries to protest.

In the end, it's all just feeding corporate sponsorship of China.

Not that I would suggest boycott of the corporations. (A more direct analogous way would be self-immolation). Ie. burn yourself to make a point. But I doubt Western Activists are that fanatical.

Well, crying out for a free Tibet is a just cause,also it clearly points out what you call the real problems in the country. I as a Tibetan will be more than happy to live under a Tibetan Theacratic rule eating Tsampa rather than the chinese communist rule who are used to eating everything that moves, moreover our govt. in exile is well based on democracy. i can not deny that i really liked your critical thinking.

As for my chinese friend i would ask, who are you to pass judgements on Tibetan lives? What was the living standards of chinese people like before 50 years? In these 50 yrs. the living standard of the world has improved, surprised? We will make the same improvements with or without the chinese, although 99 percent of tibetan people will be happier without the Chinese. Ok. i will teach you chinese a way of thinking, think of yourself as world citize and not as chinese, this will lessen your arrogance, self pity, false pride and what not.

"Who are you to pass judgment on Tibetan lives?" Well, who are you to criticize the Chinese for "eating everything that moves"?

Racist comments like that certainly don't help the Tibetan cause.

Only comment I can make is that, if we really want to defend the Tibetan cause, why boycott only the Olympics, and not all products made in China? Ok, this would entail living without a lot of appliances, clothes, food, technology...

um, moe... the chinese do eat just about anything. and they make it taste good too. i ate a duck's asshole over there. and the things that make fish float. that was some gooooood shit. wonderful. that's the best thing about the chinese diet...

as for the article, richard does make a good point. what would life be like in a free tibet? i figure it's worth trying out, if that's what the people of tibet want.

sadly, the chinese gov't is really good at getting what they want. and flouting their methods all over the place without consequence. it's ridiculous what they get away with. sound familiar?

It's my impression that the reason Tibet is such a hot issue is that a coterie of latter-day hippies nad Buddhist converts place a special emphasis on Tibet as a sort of holy land and that they are the ones trying to direct attention to it as a particular issue. Lord knows there are plenty of other reasons to object to letting China host the olympics, but we give them so many unmerited concessios, what is one more? How is this any different from letting them or other human rights abusers sit on the UN human rights council?

Dave

i do not like when people are racist to the chinese

It's me again. I'm here to respond to my Tibetan friend.

As a freedom lover who's spent more than 20 years under Chinese Communist Party's rule, I hate Chinese Government for a LOT of reasons, but apparently not including "eating everything that moves". Why not? Because they don't. Who gives you the idea that it's what every Chinese does to eat? Well China is huuuge and anything could happen in SOME part of the country. And I can assure you that people with this uncomfortable preference is definitely a minority in China.

Please, do some background research before making an accusation. It's good for both you and me.

Or perhaps you've known this already? Oops you made a mistake on purpose? Well I don't know but that explains a lot.

It's easier to look at what a country is doing to a neighboring country. A person can argue about how a government responds to its own people. It's tougher to defend what a government does to people in another country.

Dave's right; Tibet has a mystique that appeals to Americans. So does the cause of the people in Sudan - note that Spielberg bowed out of the Olympic ceremonies because of that. But to look at the oppression within China is terrifying. It's too big. A BILLION people deprived of basic rights, subject to torture and murder on the government's whim. How do you even start to think about it?

The most important question for me is not what China is doing in Tibet -- although I must confess to a preference for those in Tibet who are resisting Chinese pressures, or what the people in China eat or do not eat.

It is what China is apparently doing in other countries, such as England, not vassals of China, to silence protesters as the Olympic torch makes its grand progress to the Olympic Venue.

The following article just appeared, and relates how "thugs" sent from China for the purpose have taken over "security" to protect the progress of the torch and the reputation of China.

This sort of thing is very bad for China, the free world, and for relationships between the two. It is getting out of hand, and the consequences should it continue may well be horrific.

Dan Miller

To Dan,

I really need to say that I admire your ability of choice of words, along with that of the guy who wrote the article that you referred. I, whose English does not come as the first language will never have the chance to catch up.

But I do know what "thug" means and, to be totally honest, I don't really like it.

First of all, could you please explain how on earth they "silenced" the protesters? As far as I'm aware of, protesters are all over the world and as long as they don't come up and try to snatch the torch, there will be no direct contact between the "men in blue" and the protesters. The protesters could shout anything they want and they can get all the media coverage and the pity from all around the world and there's just no way some 30 guys could stop that. Sorry, maybe my English is too poor, I just don't understand how the word "silence" came up.

And obviously, the "thugs" have not taken over the security, at least not yet. Here's the video of what happened in London.

If you look at it really careful, maybe you'll agree that the writer of your article might be a little bit careless, since it was the British police who "wrestled the protester(s) to the ground"(5th paragragh of the article).

OK, maybe I'm too stupid to get anything straight, but I'm gonna tell you my judgement of right or wrong anyway.
There is the right of protesting and they did not stop anybody from protesting peacefully.
And it's just not right to attempt to extinguish the torch for any reason (don't believe it? ask the police who's protecting the torch), so they tried to protect it.
Last but not the least, so far there is no jurisdiction issue since they have not in any act on behave of law. No handcuffing, no arresting and all.

Again, I'm really not in favor of Chinese Government in any way. But I do have a dream, that everybody could just tell the fact as it is, without manipulating the rhetoric, without using words that could be very much misleading.

Ever since the unrest in Tibet, there has already been a lot of mutual resentment going on between the Chinese and the western people without twisting the stories. I, as a Chinese living in the US, really don't want to see it escalated.

If we really do anything wrong, just say it. We really appreciate it. But, please, no trick.

Zheng,

I wasn't there and have no personal knowledge of what happened. The news reports suggest that the "thugs" behaved in, at best, a culturally insensitive way. Here is one link you may find interesting.

I wrote an article about these things in Blogcritics, which you may also find interesting. It is here.

Dan

Richard, you've said for me absolutely everything I would ever have wanted to say regarding China, Tibet and the Olympics. Thank you so much! Seems we're pretty much of the same wavelength!

Dan,

You've probably surmised by now that the Chinese are very adept at setting out search bots for articles involving the C-word.

About a year and a half ago, we had an article that only peripherally involved China, but which attracted enormous attention and hundreds of comments from there.

It'll be interesting to see how long this thread lasts...

Clavos,

"This is the way the thread ends;
This is the way the thread ends;
Not with a bang but a whimper."

Dan

Hmm, Dan,

I hope I didn't jinx your thread...

Clavos,

It wasn't my thread; it was that other guy who wrote about the Olympic stuff.

Dan

To Lord Dave,

Anyone who has a different opinion with you will be a shill of bad guy? Anyone has same (or shame) opinion with you will be the stand of justice, not a member of gang at all?

Peace,

Yes, basically, that's Dave to a tee!

to nodragon:

more interested in your choice in detail: you want to be a slave or slave master in your wished Tibet?

@ # 20:

Oops!!!






[Tiptoes sheepishly back to the other thread...]

Richard,

Since things have gone astray... [Thanks a lot Clav] may I ask, why the subversive stance? Why an iconoclast?? Have you no value for the effort that has been put forth over the millennia by humanity. Symbols and institutions are monuments to our efforts to organize and create. Outside of the imagery, they serve to stabilize society, create a foundation, order and meaning. What's wrong with that?

to Baronius #12:

That does remind me the time of cultural revolution in China which was 40 years ago, have you ever been in China during last 20 or 15 years? It is completely different, just like Germany is not a Nazi country anymore, Great changes has happened, hope the same with your mind and knowledge about China.

The writer shows nothing but ignorance, stupidity blended in a long and useless bullshit story.

Bullshit

Like If you careless, fashion errr tibet shouters actually cared. I would like to recommand all of you to read F. William Engdahl his analysis. Unlike the writer of this worthless article, Mr. Engdahl actually studied politics and is a wanted speaker at conventions about geopolitics.

The only convention Richard would be wanted is that of his wife, kids.

"Psycho Humans, Ques'que c'est?

Dont go as visitor
Dont go as athelete
Buy not "Made in China" as consumer

Games or Shames? - Faces in Olympic Games:Dirty Faces, Sad & Angry Faces, Ugly Faces

Oveerseas Chinese Tibet People - Dirty Faces
Mainland Chinese People - Sad & Angry Faces
Many World Politians - Ugly Faces

Olympic Games has now become a dirty place mixed with sports, politics, violence, etc. because of these overseas tibet people's (Shame. they don't think they are Chinese) dirty actions in the Olympic Games Flame and maybe in the Olympic Games in August in Beijing. It makes the Chinese people sad and angry. It's sad because they are not strong enough to make the world shut up on unreasonable critisis. And they are angry because this makes them lose faces in Olympic Games. Let's see those world politians. We see their ugly faces and black heart. These politicians know they can not change the Chinese fast growing power which will make themselves shut up one day in the near future! Now they have the good chance to use Olympic Games to make ugly smiles on their ugly faces and in their black hearts...But maybe they also know Olympic Games may be the last few chances for them to make dirty smiles...

[Edited to remove bad links]

Olympic Shames - Dirty Faces, Sad & Angry Faces, Ugly Faces!! Do something to stop Olympic Games to to be too much shames!!

DIRTY VIOLENCE AND RIOT IN CHINA TIBET

Donald/Carlos:

Posting under multiple identities is not allowed on Blogcritics.

Taking the caps lock off is also much appreciated.

Thank you,
Assistant Comments Editor

I totally agree with the author here. Tibet was a feudal theocracy in which it treated the peasants like trash, torturing, killing, and raping them. Then after that, they had the nerve to justify it saying that it was their karma's fault that they're being treated badly. Tibetan buddhism before China's invasion had worse conditions than feudal Europe, and more corrupt than the Catholic church under the Medeci.
Also, China was probably the best thing that happened to the living conditions in Tibet. The first thing they did when they got there was take down the corrupt priesthood, and divide the land up among the peasants. The only losers were the lamas who fled and released their "China wronged all Tibetans" propaganda onto the western world. Now everyone thinks that feudal Tibet was invented by Chinese history writers as propaganda.

It's very sad how the western world is so gullible.

The whole Tibet incident is totally being twisted by the damn western media. They know nothing about China history, all they know is photoshoping the photos taken in Tibet to defame China.

All the western countries have no rights at all to talk about human rights. They are the ones who invaded China during the Qing dynasty. They killed many Chinese people and robbed the country.

The USA is supporting that Dalai Lama because hes not creating riots inside US territory. If he does, Bush would be the first to send trops to Tibet and search every mountain and river to find him. And also an enemy's enemy is a friend.

And I am really disgusted by the fact that some countries' Presidents are thick enough to mix politics with Olympics. Whats the whole point of having the Olympics then? Wheres do all the sportsmanship and fairness go?

And if you westerners suggest Tibet to be free from china, why not let Corsica be freed from France, Scotland and Ireland be freed from England?

good article. the only issue of disagreement:

'It's all right to fight for human rights in Afghanistan and freedom in Iraq, but not in China, and the Chinese government knows it. '

helllooo??? a typical brainwashed western view. so the invasion and dying of 1 million iraqie civilians are for liberating other people in other countries for a US modelled freedom? The US and UK and their gang of brothers have caused the world enough death and war in the past 50 years. Bash on china suppressing tibetians, the US's own happiness is based on suppressing other nations. hands covered in blood.

I tried posting the above in major newspapers site as an individual opnion, it always get censored. The whole western 'democracy' and 'freedom' model is not working at all.

i think the western media needs to be reevaluated. the major medias never, ever, reports two sides of a story. Its always totally bias. middle east is a very good example. most of the developing world stories are one sided only. it is as bad as the propoganda chinese media, and the people doesnt even realize they are brainwashed to a large extend.

also,who keeps the human rights record to what countries? is the human rights card a political card to pull out whenever is necessary? Other countries like Israel, no human rights record? africa, nobody cares? US causes people in other countries to die via its foreign policy, and those dead people all have human rights?!?!

oh and if anyone truely knows what china was like 40 years ago, they should in fact praise the huge improvement on human rights treatment in those years! and call me a communist i am just expressing an independent view.

Are you really narrow minded enough to believe that the Tibetan people were kept more downtrodden by the monks (a religious order that abhors violence and advocates love for all beings)than by the Chinese government? The fact is that the majority of Tibetans want a return to the "feudal theocracy" you are so keen to oversimplify, regardless of your personal opinions.

At the current moment Tibet is a country where individuals do not have freedom of speech, thought or worship, where people can be arrested and tortured for possesion of a Tibetan flag, where people are afraid to talk to foreigners or associate with monks for fear of government reprisals, where there is one armed police man for every 10 Tibetan citizens and where the Tibetan culture and way of life is raped on a day to day basis. How can you claim that it is "a cause that has no meaning" to call for the Dalai Lama to be reinstated, a religious leader who wants what is genuinely best for his people and who has earned their respect through the years of sound and efficient government that came prior to the Chinese invasion.

Maybe next time before you make such thoughtless generalisations you should research the subject first...