If you think the grassroots are bad, check out the "mainstream" that supports McCain, Clinton, and Obama. Talk about complete whack-jobs.

I have yet to meet anyone who supports one of those three with a pollitical IQ above 80 (70 for McCain).

Dave,

As one who has always voted either for a Republican or against a Democrat, I found your article quite disheartening. I am afraid that the picture you paint is representative of what's happening across the country, and the only hope is that my recent satire explaining why Senator Clinton will win the election was way off base; perhaps the Republicans are at least as "amusing" as the Democrats.

Seriously, what has gone wrong? Has it always been that way, or has something happened? Illiteracy, mass hysteria, too much fluoride in the water, or what?

Your comments on the symptoms of the malady are insightful. How about your thoughts on the causes?

Dan Miller

I'd like to make a few points. As a long-time member of the GOP I was disgusted at the way the party spat upon Ron Paul and ridiculed him. So, if we seem hostile, it is just a reaction to that. We cannot play nice if the party and Fox News is so eager to mislead the public about Ron Paul. Secondly, I laughed when you said we are like sheep. That is so funny. Ron Paul supporters are self-sufficient, stubborn, independent-minded people. Each person I know does things their own way and takes marching orders from no one. There are a few "black helicopters" in the mix, but in the end, this republican is very happy to work with anyone in the name of liberty. Our present administration has totally lost it's way.

As for McCain, I do not want the Republican party to be the party of McCain-Kennedy/Feingold/Leiberman. We need to get a little hostile to get the party shills scared.

CD, you get right to the heart of the problem. The party and the media did not 'spit upon' Paul. They treated him exactly like a candidate with some radical ideas who was polling well under 10% nationwide and refused to drop out of the election. They treated him like Kucinich and Gravel.

Paul got a lot of supportive and even sympathetic coverage and probably far more coverage than the other candidates who were out of the lead. Some of his publicity stunts like the blimp got a LOT more coverage than you might have expected and most of it was quite positive.

The fact that you don't see this is at the heart of the problem. That you think Paul was persecuted shows a general disconnect from reality.

Dave

Of course they are disguesed by McSane, they read unlike the real sheep supporting hillary, hussein and mcsane! They know about the song bird affair, they know that mcsane is a big liberal, the best friends the lobbyists in washington have, they read his anti-republican vote in the senate, they know he doesn't give a damn about this country and on and on and on!
What else should they research about McInsane?

They know that we are facing an economic crisis Ron Paul is warning us about since more than 30 years, they know Dr. Paul is the only one who can fix the foreign policy and the economy based on his voting record, he does what he preaches.

The Ron Paul supporters are the true patriots, time, truth and history are on their side and you will be proven wrong for attacking them and trying to prtray them as fanatics!

In my opinion, you and all those who are attacking the Ron Paul movement are the fanatics, the sheep following without asking questions, no oposition nor action but attacking the true patriots!

I know that a number of the Ron Paul supporters who went to conventions felt as if they had been treated like the enemy, but I am sorry if some have taken that to mean that the GOP is the enemy, itself, as you almost seem to imply in your article.

I reaching out to the GOP was just taken for granted, but if it isn't high on the list of actions to take, I agree it needs to be done.

It seems like a different group of activists, an equally small a percentage of the GOP, had previously been entrenched. Issues of power plays by this small group are just that, however. The GOP membership overall are still the allies we want and have reason to think will agree with many of the issues we support. I hope supporters of Ron Paul's message remember this, as some, but not all, seem to have done from your post.

I have been in the GOP since I voted for Reagan, but have never gotten particularly active until Ron Paul's candidacy made me realize how many of our individual rights and economic freedoms are being lost in 'business as usual' on Capital Hill. I think that Ron Paul has something to say about the economy that we all need to listen to, whomever we support for President.

I am glad so many are so enthusiastic for Ron Paul's presidency, and I share that enthusiasm. However, there are reasons why we support him as Republicans, and I agree that we need to bring other Republicans to where they are willing to listen to that message, even if not to our man himself. It sounds like the chairman for District 25 hit that note the best.

Thank you for your insights. I was invigorated by Ron Paul's website suggesting I participate in the precinct and SD25 conventions. Yes! My ideals ARE worth speaking up for, and I should offer my voice in the party decisions.

Then I was horrified to find that other Ron Paul supporters suggested we vote as a block, instead of voting for what we each INDIVIDUALLY thought was best on each issue. Funny thought, eh, that all persons brought together by Dr. Paul's ideas would think and act alike? And not so politely, either.

I was saddened to find that people who have worked so hard for the republican party in hostile territory, Travis County, would be treated with such little respect. These are people a lot like my parents; and I learned at home that we disagree, but we must respect each other.

Furthermore, just like my parents, the current people volunteering their time to the republican party do agree with many of my general principles. The party "old guard" said so: they agree on 90% of the issues; why were the RP supporters so combative? Sometimes -- downright mean.

I suggest a gentle realignment of the republican party and its direction, not a wholesale destruction of the current machinery. Let us steer, not destroy the vehicle and end up walking.

Some very positive comments here. Reassuring.

I know that a number of the Ron Paul supporters who went to conventions felt as if they had been treated like the enemy, but I am sorry if some have taken that to mean that the GOP is the enemy, itself, as you almost seem to imply in your article.

The problem as I see it was that they started out with the assumption that they would be treated as enemies and therefore approached the process with that expectation and thus generated a hostile response. It was sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy.


It seems like a different group of activists, an equally small a percentage of the GOP, had previously been entrenched. Issues of power plays by this small group are just that, however. The GOP membership overall are still the allies we want and have reason to think will agree with many of the issues we support. I hope supporters of Ron Paul's message remember this, as some, but not all, seem to have done from your post.

I think this is dead on. What the Paul followers may not be seeing is that mainstream republicans are fed up with the small faction of religious extremists who have taken over the party. We'd like very much to see them out of power, and some of us see the Ron Paul supporters as the wedge to separate them from power. The problem is that we don't want to just trade one group of fanatics for another. We want some inclusion and compromise, and that doesn't seem to be any more of a priority for Ron Paul supporters than it is for the religious right.

Dave

I dunno, Dave... Republicans getting drunk and organizing things badly. That sounds like every GOP event I've ever attended.

Remember in a political battle you win by turning enemies into allies. You cannot win allies by slandering people; this is why the LOVE in the R3VOLution is so critical and the good Dr. knows this all too well. I am saddened to hear that some of my fellow Ron Paul supporters seem to have forgotten, it sounds like the rally you attended failed to win you as an ally for just that reason and only reinforced the negative propaganda you have been fed from the mainstream media. Now your going to walk away thinking if this one event is wrong then everything else negative you have heard must be true.

Good luck in your journey, I hope it brings you home to the founding of this country and the wacky ideas of our very own constitution. See you their friend.

Dan

I think I have finally figured you out Dave. You are what is known in the gambling world as a shill. I have watched you for some time acting as though you supported Dr. Paul, with an occasional and I do mean occasional nice word about him. However for the most part I have seen you denigrate not only him but his followers on a regular basis for the past 3 months.

You are about as libertarian as was Ronald Reagan, who contrary to what you may espouse, was a joke.
I think of you as more a Nixononian, I like that word. By the way, as "informed" as you like to think that you are, do you know how Nixon got his start Davey? There was a group in the 50's called the 100 friends of California, that put in an ad in the local California newspaper looking for someone to run as a repulican in Congress. Do you know who was in charge of that group Davey boy? None other than Prescott Bush.

I see you give lip service at best to libertarian ideals, what I do see is you on a daily basis continue to defend your right wing bretheren. From your ridiculous characterization of US covert state sponsored terrorism in Central America, as bringin a better life to the masses (LOL), to you defending most if not all of that the Bush Junta has promoted. I wonder Davey, why if you are a "libertarian" I have never heard you criticize or challend John Yoo, (ex fascist attorney for the Dept of Justice) who said it was legal to torture childrens testicles with pliars in front of their children, under our form of government, to the other recent revelation about him at the same time when he wrote another legal opinion saying that the fourth amendment did not apply to the military's involvment inside the USA. You sir are a joke as a libertarian, and I have yet to see you stand up for anything showing any backbone whatsoever in your so called libertarianism. What I do see is you as usual denigrating others, in this case the Paulites, and of course me on a continual basis.

I dont mind, dont get me wrong, I love it when you show your true colors Davey. Your just another typical shill pretending to be something that your not. In my book your just another right wing republican, who only gives lip service to some libertarian philosophy. You lack of actually engaging such institutions as the FED or the CFR, or the Bilderberg group only show to me that you as your bretheren are only part of the problem, and have nothing of value to offer as a solution.


JUST MY TWO SENSE WORTH BUCKO

Oh and another thing Davey,

I just love the book that you chose to list with this article. Daniel Pipes lifetime member of the CFR writing a book on paranoid conspiracists, talk about the pot calling the kettle black bubba, you truly are an amazing one Davey.

I dunno, Dave... Republicans getting drunk and organizing things badly. That sounds like every GOP event I've ever attended.

That may explain a lot about the takeover of the religious right. They might all be teetotallers.

Remember in a political battle you win by turning enemies into allies.

I'd agree. But to win allies you have to be willing to meet them half way and that is something the Paul supporters seem unwilling to do.

You cannot win allies by slandering people; this is why the LOVE in the R3VOLution is so critical and the good Dr. knows this all too well.

From what I heard yesterday the LOVE in the Revolution has nothing to do with finding allies, but is all about a feel-good 'make love, not war' attitude which is alien to the pragmatism which is one of the saving graces of the GOP.

I am saddened to hear that some of my fellow Ron Paul supporters seem to have forgotten, it sounds like the rally you attended failed to win you as an ally for just that reason

If that reason is the lack of interest in compromising and finding common ground then yes.

and only reinforced the negative propaganda you have been fed from the mainstream media.

Now I smell more of the same bullshit I talked about in the article. The MSM isn't and hasn't been demonizing Paul. That's all part of the propaganda package that keeps the sheep loyal to the fanatical cadre of leaders.

Now your going to walk away thinking if this one event is wrong then everything else negative you have heard must be true.

I base my opinions on my experiences and research, not on questionable sources.

Good luck in your journey, I hope it brings you home to the founding of this country and the wacky ideas of our very own constitution. See you their friend.

I've been THERE all along. I'm just not convinced that the Paulites are there or ever were. They certainly have some fundamental errors in their understanding of the Constitution and the ideas of the founding fathers.

Dave

One final comment on Mr. Pipes dave. This is from one of the reviewers at Amazon.com on this book.

"his book is incredible! This author "poo-poos" any idea of Conspiracy as if it's in our deep inner mind. Just notice he equates it with "Paranoid". Does he think Bin Laden and his gang "conspired"? Well if you read one of Mr. Pipes other books, he certainly believes that, so I guess we can say he's paranoid. Conspiracies most likely are natural and normal, an abscence of conspiracy would be contrary to how individuals, nations and institutions work. Mr. Pipes ought to know that well. He's a member of the Council on Foreign Relations, an organization which was founded by J.P. Morgan and has ties to the Federal Reserve Bank, which is a private bank: not Federal but a cabal of private bankers serving their own best interests. You can't join the CFR on your own--you must be invited! It's a club of the elite, by the elite for the elite. Every high ranking member of the Bush Admin is CFR: Hayden, Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld, Powell, Paulson, Snow, etc, etc, also so is Ms. Clinton and many other ruling Democrats. Is this a coincidence, hardly! Compare Mr. Pipes book to Tim Carney's "The Big Ripoff", recently hosted on CSPAN book reviews and available on Amzaon. Tim gets close to the target by seeing the symptoms. Mr. Pipes writing of this book is highly suspect. One has to question his motives. It's like the Big Bad Wolf writing a book: How to Raise Chickens in a Hen House and Keep Them Safe. You would be better reading G. Edward Griffin's book: Creature from Jekyll Island-a second look at the Federal Reserve."

Don't you think that its rather odd that Mr. Pipes chose not to talk about the CFR, and also Mr. Quigley's assertions? Oh thats right Davey boy, Professor Carroll Quigley, (Bill Clinton's self professed mentor) wrote it in a basement, hehehe, I almost forgot Dave. SMIRK

Surely you can do better than that, coming from a conspiracy theorist such as yourself bubba.

do you know how Nixon got his start Davey? There was a group in the 50's called the 100 friends of California, that put in an ad in the local California newspaper looking for someone to run as a repulican in Congress. Do you know who was in charge of that group Davey boy? None other than Prescott Bush.

I find it ironic that you don't see how this story runs directly counter to so many of your basic parnoid theories. Here you have Prescott Bush, uncrowned King of America and champion of the elite leadership of Skull and Bones not going to the old money elite for a candidate, but advertising in the newspaper and getting instead a middle-class Quaker (notoriously anti-elitist) who couldn't afford to go to Harvard even with a partial scholarship and instead attended third-rate Whittier college, and yet that plebian nobody went on to become president, and was in fact known for his paranoia and hostility to elite groups of all sorts.

Delicious.

Dave

I picked the Pipes book specifically to irritate you, Pablo. It's so easy.

Dave

Dave,

Of course you did, I am soooo flattered Davey. I was not irritated, it only reaffirmed my opinion of you dude. The Nixon comment deserves no response from me, and regardless of what you say about it, the facts stand on their own. The Bush dynasty beginning with its marriage to Averell Harriman, and Brown Brothers Harriman, continues to this day.

No comments on John Yoo Davey? Surely you must have something to say on that patriot.

Why would I have anything to say about him? He's of no interest to me. Just another creepy statist flunky.

Dave

Dave,

I'm a Ron Paul supporter but I found your article hysterical and helpful at the same time. I'm still chuckling. It's funny because it's true. Our movement does have a LOT of people from diverse factions and a LOT of us feel pretty hostile to the status quo. Very much an "us and them" kind of feel.

I'm not personally sure if what you describe is bad or good but I know it's a work in progress. I know there will be a lot of negative backlash to our lashing out, but it's just kind of inevitable. We're learning.

You deserve credit for hanging out and giving a few of us a shake. I hope the sincerity we feel shines through a bit.

R3VOlUTION!

-Oyate

Oyate, I definitely give the movement points for enthusiasm and sincerity. Now if they could just temper it with some common sense and praqmatism they might be on their way.

I think the first step is to face up to the inevitable need to dump Ron Paul (gently, of course) and stand on their own.

Dave

If you really wanted to know what Ron Paul supporters are like, you would get to know them or spend more time with them, and not make such a pitiful remark that does nothing more than describe your own ignorance and lack of interpersonal communication among other individuals.

Dave,
Thanks for the report. It's very exciting that patriots are gathering to work toward the goals espoused by Ron Paul. Yes, Dr. Paul won't be a focus point for long, but as he has always said, it's not about him. I don't see a personality cult amongst Ron Paul supporters, as you seem to have observed. It's about the message of freedom, peace, and prosperity. It's about getting the government to obey its constitution.

Your critical observations notwithstanding, the fact that these people are gathering and trying to do *something* is heartwarming. Viva La rEVOLution!

Well Dave, this is Oyate and I just got back from a McCain appearance in my own home town. True to form, the R3VOlUTION was there to greet him with our own personal style.

While we were occasionally vocal and totally visible, we respected Mr. McCain's speech and supporters by keeping our mouths shut during his speech and we also politely clapped for his wife. For it's well known among gentlemen, we keep the ladies and the kids out of it.

However, for our mutual gratification, we smiled and greeted everybody with a hefty "good morning!" and we got a lot of support and thumbs up. And several of us were accosted and...well...um...we're Ron Paul Republicans and we don't exactly back down. My smiley face can turn into a snarl about quicker than a man can drop his hat.

Proves both our points. Not all the "traditional GOP" is all that polite or tolerant either.

The one thing I can say is us Ron Paul Republicans is that when the elderlies in wheelchairs or whatever, we put down our signs and helped out. And only the most aggressive words were met by anything but a smile and a "great to see you out here today".

But I'll tell a story or two. One McCainiac saw us parading silently through the crowd and he came up and snapped "show some respect" and I returned "respect to you Sir, great to see you here" as we traipsed past. Then he caught up to me and said "show some respect" and I said (audibly) "screw you pal" and when he recovered his breath, he caught up once again and said "show some respect" and I leaned up close to him and said "why don't we settle this in the alley punk?" Didn't have any more show from that guy.

Another more ethically ambiguous incident was this big burly guy who got right in my face and asked "do you think we have a right to be here for John McCain?" and I was like "um...totally, of course" and he said "then what gives you the right to be here?" and honestly, that took me back a step. I said "is this a trick question?" but the dude was totally serious. I said "same right you have, Constitutional right" and he was about to get snarly so I decided to bless him on with a "nice to see you out here Sir, have a fine day".

But again, we're a small mountain town and we're not especially given to being uncivil. I guess the only point I have to make is we're not exactly the only ones on the block with an axe to grind.

We didn't boo McCain (although there were some leftists that did) and we respected and clapped for Mrs. McCain as our small-town ethics dictate.

Welp, just something that happened, hope you enjoy reading it as much as I enjoyed your article. It's just plain fun to be Americans sometimes. Sometimes it takes a sense of humor to really get into it. An ounce of forgiveness goes a long way bro.

Cyote I'd have liked ti hear your take on McCain's speech. He's quite libertarian in some ways. Did it come thru at all?

Dave,
I was at the debate in SC and trust me the MSM was and IS very unkindly disposed towards Dr. Paul. That is just a flat out truth. No I didn't bother to call up any nationally syndicated talk shows and tell them that I would stop listening, instead I changed the channel to NPR. We all have seen these things with our own eyes and our faith in America has been shaken. I watch politics like most Americans watch football, and I remember a lot of statistics and quotes.
I had a time trying to convince the members of my local group to stick with the issues and try to out-republican the so called republicans. This crowd is new to politics, and are not always patient enough for the political process and the lies, strategy, and compromise that is involved.
I know that everyone in power at the RNC would like to return to a William F. Buckley type crowd following around after Senor Juan McCain and being all polite and intellectual. But it ain't gonna happen ever again. As Buckley himself said a conservative is the greatest defender of individual freedom. Campaign finance reform anyone? Oh yea he has developed the sneaky habit of voting in favor of gun control, and expanding the size of government. I will give him kudos for his work against earmarks but quite frankly that doesn't over-ride his above the table support for big government.
Now those of us who aren't happy with the way things are, have to remember that right now even with rising costs and unemployment, the vast majority of Americans have it made. That's right, people may be starting to worry, but the vast majority is doing very well. We all still have 4 cell phones, cable, an Escalade, and a little spare tire around our middle. ;) As long as that is true, people who are marching around & screaming for change, when things really aren't that bad for most people, will be regarded as suspicious. Don't forget what we the conservatives, did to the hippies over JFK/LBJ's little war. Hey sometimes ya gotta make some noise, and then stop to smell the tear gas.
I understand the desire of a lot of people to squelch this movement, most of us will probably try to work within the Republican Party and support it while making any changes we can to steer it back to conservatism. This is what Dr. Paul advocates. As for me I'll stick with the Libertarians for now, but will always be happy to support any republican with a decent voting record on the majority of issues that matter to me.
But Dave trying to unite us behind one candidate by telling everyone that what they remember isn't what happened will simply drive away that little margin of victory in November. Sorry dude I'll probably select a straight Libertarian ticket this year.

I was at the debate in SC and trust me the MSM was and IS very unkindly disposed towards Dr. Paul. That is just a flat out truth.

It may be true, but it certainly doesn't come out clearly if you follow the media. While the campaign was active he was getting more airtime than anyone but the frontrunners.

No I didn't bother to call up any nationally syndicated talk shows and tell them that I would stop listening,

That's always a waste of time.

instead I changed the channel to NPR.

And how was their coverage of Paul?

We all have seen these things with our own eyes and our faith in America has been shaken. I watch politics like most Americans watch football, and I remember a lot of statistics and quotes.

I always find it helpful to go back and check the facts to make sure I remembered them correctly.

I had a time trying to convince the members of my local group to stick with the issues and try to out-republican the so called republicans. This crowd is new to politics, and are not always patient enough for the political process and the lies, strategy, and compromise that isinvolved.

Certainly matches my observation. What they seem not to get is that the party would probably give them most of what they want if they just asked politely. They're likely to get less by using bully tactics and making everyone defensive. Most Republicans agree with Paul on all but the most extreme positions at least in theory.

I know that everyone in power at the RNC would like to return to a William F. Buckley type crowd following around after Senor Juan McCain and being all polite and intellectual. But it ain't gonna happen ever again. As Buckley himself said a conservative is the greatest defender of individual freedom.

Buckley would probably fall more on the side of Ron Paul than John McCain.

Campaign finance reform anyone?

How do you feel about Teddy Roosevelt? Most Republicans and Libertarians think pretty highly of him. Of course, he was the first n national leader topromote and pass campaign finance reform legislation. In 1905 Roosevelt said "contributions by corporations to any political committee or for any political purpose should be forbidden by law."

Oh yea he has developed the sneaky habit of voting in favor of gun control,

Really? When? Here's a bit of his actual record on gun issues:

Voted against allowing lawsuits against gun makers (multiple times)
Voted against assault weapons ban (multiple times)
Voted against magazine size limits
Voted against Brady bill
Proposed repeal of all gun ownership restrictions
Voted against background checks at gun shows (multiple times)
Advocated repeal of DC gun restrictions.
Proposed a nationwide reciprocal CCL license.

McCain is arguably the most pro-gun Senator in the Senate. He appears to be perfectly fine with anything up to and including private ownership of fully automatic weapons.

and expanding the size of government.

Really? Give me an example? The only one most people can come up with is voting against Bush's tax cuts which he only did because he believed that they should be accompanied by specific budget and program cuts, which would be the exact opposite of growing government. McCain was CAGW's budget hawk award recipient last year. He is the single most anti-spending, anti-government growth Senator.

I will give him kudos for his work against earmarks but quite frankly that doesn't over-ride his above the table support for big government.

Which is manifested how? By voting against farm subsidies and foreign aid and corporate welfare?

Now those of us who aren't happy with the way things are, have to remember that right now even with rising costs and unemployment,

Rising all the way up to what was considered historically low 10 years ago.

the vast majority of Americans have it made. That's right, people may be starting to worry, but the vast majority is doing very well. We all still have 4 cell phones, cable, an Escalade, and a little spare tire around our middle.

It doesn't matter how people are actually doing, what matters is how they THINK they are doing. Never mind that our poor are wealthier than the middle class of most nations. Everyone is always eager to hear that their lives could be better if they just took away the ill gotten gains of the rich.

;) As long as that is true, people who are marching around & screaming for change, when things really aren't that bad for most people, will be regarded as suspicious.

That's why the Democrats have spent the last several years trying to tell us that black is white and up is down and that the economy is in the tank and the sky is falling. You need to convince people there IS a crisis before you can come in and rescue them.

I understand the desire of a lot of people to squelch this movement, most of us will probably try to work within the Republican Party and support it while making any changes we can to steer it back to conservatism.

I hope we'll see this. Real change is usually not the work one campaign or election.

This is what Dr. Paul advocates. As for me I'll stick with the Libertarians for now, but will always be happy to support any republican with a decent voting record on the majority of issues that matter to me.

I voted Libertarian for many, many years. I even ran as a libertarian candidate. All wasted effort.

Dave

Dave, "Really? Give me an example?"

Here is your one example the department of Homeland security. I agree that we needed better work from our exist law enforcement/security agencies, but not another bloated agency with even more power.

"I hope we'll see this. Real change is usually not the work one campaign or election."

I fully agree with you on this one.

I will admit Senator McCain has been very strong on the 2nd amendment in the past. There have been some politically expedient statements and positions in recent years to cause me to doubt him on this issue. See the link.

"I voted Libertarian for many, many years. I even ran as a libertarian candidate. All wasted effort."

In a free nation it is never a wasted effort to speak your mind or vote your conscience. Besides some times