OPINION

Obama's Impossible Mission

Written by Whymrhymer
Published March 20, 2008

Can we assume that Barack Obama feels that it is the job of a president to heal racial wounds that were inflicted centuries ago? From his own remarks its a safe bet that he does.

In Obama's beautifully crafted oration on race this week he made some very obvious points: poor people are stuck in a cycle of poverty; less educated people get poorer paying jobs; many public schools are dishing out substandard education. He made these points with special emphasis on the black community and very clearly stated:

"We do not need to recite here the history of racial injustice in this country. But we do need to remind ourselves that so many of the disparities that exist in the African-American community today can be directly traced to inequalities passed on from an earlier generation that suffered under the brutal legacy of slavery and Jim Crow."

Why, you may be asking yourself do we need to remind ourselves about past inequities? That, at any rate, is what I'm asking myself! How does that help?

Obama then went on to say:

"This is where we are right now. It's a racial stalemate we've been stuck in for years. Contrary to the claims of some of my critics, black and white, I have never been so naïve as to believe that we can get beyond our racial divisions in a single election cycle, or with a single candidacy - particularly a candidacy as imperfect as my own."

 

'Fixing' Racism From the Oval Office

Look beyond the oratory and beyond the humble facade in this last statement and you will see that Obama truly believes that racism in the U.S. today is a problem that the president and the U.S. government can somehow, eventually, legislate out of existence. Not, he said "in a single election cycle" and not "with a single candidacy" but the implication is clear — he believes that, over time, the government should and can fix it!

It is the stark absurdity of this proposition that should raise eyebrows (and blood pressures). Racial inequality, as well as inequality based on gender, ethnicity, religious beliefs and personal preferences are not problems that will ever be solved with the stroke of a pen — not in the next administration or in any administration following that — provided we are still living in a Democracy and we are still bound by the Constitution.

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You'll find me opinionated and most of the time politically incorrect. I belong to no political parties or social groups, preferring independence and open options over the mindless, scripted group-think that pervades our society.
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Obama's Impossible Mission
Published: March 20, 2008
Type: Opinion
Section: Politics
Filed Under: Culture: History, Culture: Society, Politics: Elections and Candidates
Writer: Whymrhymer
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Comments

#1 — March 20, 2008 @ 15:01PM — Dave Nalle [URL]

There's a section in Obama's speech which most people seem to be overlooking, including the author of this article. ABout 2/3 of the way through he says:

"In fact, a similar anger exists within segments of the white community. Most working- and middle-class white Americans don't feel that they have been particularly privileged by their race. Their experience is the immigrant experience - as far as they're concerned, no one's handed them anything, they've built it from scratch. They've worked hard all their lives, many times only to see their jobs shipped overseas or their pension dumped after a lifetime of labor. They are anxious about their futures, and feel their dreams slipping away; in an era of stagnant wages and global competition, opportunity comes to be seen as a zero sum game, in which your dreams come at my expense. So when they are told to bus their children to a school across town; when they hear that an African American is getting an advantage in landing a good job or a spot in a good college because of an injustice that they themselves never committed; when they're told that their fears about crime in urban neighborhoods are somehow prejudiced, resentment builds over time."


I think that this is an indication that Obama actually 'gets it', that he understands that affirmative action encourages interracial hostility on both sides. It's certainly more of an indication of an understanding of this than I've ever seen from any other Democrat leader.

The fact that he does seem to be able to see beyond party allegiance and beyond his own race suggests a level of empathy which I think makes him qualified for the presidency in a way which Hillary Clinton, who clearly does not have this quality will never be.

Just the fact that he sees the full spectrum of this problem clearly increases the chances that he will handle it competently, because I don't see how anyone who could make the statement I quote above would ever stand for the inequity of a system like quotas.

Dave

#2 — March 20, 2008 @ 15:18PM — Dr Dreadful [URL]

The author should thank his/her stars for BC's new multi-page format.

S/he claims (with utter spuriousness) that it is obvious to anyone that Obama believes government alone should solve racism - which is almost the exact opposite of what he actually said - and then dismisses the notion that governmental intervention could be in any way effective.

Yet in the very next paragraph (which you have to navigate to page 2 to read, or his/her abrupt volte face would be even more glaring), s/he argues that anti-discrimination laws have effectively neutralized institutionalized racism.

Last time I looked, laws did not spring into existence from the void. They're written, legislated and enforced by government.

#3 — March 20, 2008 @ 16:39PM — JustOneMan

Dave....

"Obama "actually 'gets it'"???? Or does it just prove that he is prepared to pander to whites as well as minorities to get their votes. This is an election and what he is doing is talking to western PA and other parts of "Whitelandia" to get them to vote for him instead of Hillary - PERIOD. He has no track record of taking on the issues of race. Name one initiative in the US senate that he sponsored or promoted an initiative to heal the "racial divide"? Zip, zero zilch! How many public addresses has he made focused on "healing the racial divide" while in the senate or in his rum for president? Zip, zero zilch!

He failed to address one of the main reasons for the so called "racial divide" . The activity that he participated in every Sunday for the past 20 years - the brain washing of a community into beliving that they are victims and cannot change their destiny. He was an active member, in fact of leader of a community wallowing in their own despair and blaming everyone else but the Black community, it's leadership or lack of MALE parental involvement for their current situation.

JOM

#4 — March 20, 2008 @ 17:44PM — Arch Conservative

"Obama believes government alone should solve racism"

Well Obama is a Democrat so it's a given that he believes government alone should solve all of our nation's problems wether they be economic or social.

#5 — March 20, 2008 @ 17:55PM — Dr Dreadful [URL]

Arch: horseshit.

#6 — March 20, 2008 @ 18:10PM — zingzing

for fuck's sake, arch and jom...

#7 — March 20, 2008 @ 18:32PM — Ruvy in Jerusalem [URL]

Oy-bama. I'm beginning to actually like this guy - but not for the reasons you might imagine. He recognizes the crucial issues of the the racial divide in his own country, and that is good. It is about time that somebody attempted to address the resentments on both sides of the American racial divide, and Obama is attempting to, even if imperfectly. For Americans this is good. Also, I'm glad to see that many American blacks and mixed race residents are seeing a ray of hope and light in a country that for too long was only darkness for them.

But this guy is no good for me or for Jews or for Israel. The pricks who advise him, and his own predilections (the name Hussein does count for something in a person) all indicate that any administration he heads will be hostile to the Jewish State. And that is what is so good about the guy.

More than anything, we need an American administration that is openly hostile to Israel - only that way will Israelis get up enough dander to tell you what I've been telling you all - get out and stay out of our lives. We neither need you nor want you. Take you money, your spike heeled bitch "policy makers", your soldiers and your damned anti-missile systems and get the hell out. And stay out!

YANKEE GO HOME!!!

#8 — March 20, 2008 @ 18:36PM — JustOneMan

Ruvy...

[Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor] how dare you of all people preach from the gutter about racial divide... every other post from you is about killing that other "race" in your country...

Too bad the Arabs and Ethiopians residents in israel will never see a ray of hope and light in a country that for too long was only darkness for them...


JOM

#9 — March 20, 2008 @ 19:28PM — Dan

"So when they are told to bus their children to a school across town; when they hear that an African American is getting an advantage in landing a good job or a spot in a good college because of an injustice that they themselves never committed; when they're told that their fears about crime in urban neighborhoods are somehow prejudiced, resentment builds over time."

First off, African Americans are no longer getting the privilege of Affirmative Action because of past injustice.

As with most dishonest "social justice" causes, the SCOTUS has shifted their reasoning with the most recent upholding. Now it's because diversity is said to be an enriching thing. I guess this is to open the door for other non-white folks, with no claim to perceived injustice, to leap-frog over white men.

Second, and more importantly, the implicit bargain in minorities gaining citizenship didn't include a perpetual custodial relationship, with whites forced to sacrifice for the benefit of minorities. The Constitution grants equal protection to white men as well. Not to mention things like freedom of association.

That was it, and let the chips fall where they may. If the chips aren't falling the way you like them, then you should take a new look at your egalitarian dogma.

Third, and least important, but telling, Obama casts the practice of institutional discrimination against whites in the same deceptive language as the most common phrase that describes it. He talks of African Americans getting an "advantage".

Most whites don't mind African Americans getting an advantage. "Affirmative Action helps people", is the implication.

Jim Crow helped people too.

#10 — March 20, 2008 @ 19:49PM — Dr Dreadful [URL]

Can't win, can he, Dan?

He acknowledges one of the major complaints often voiced by his detractors, including those on this site: that affirmative action has sometimes been unfair to white Americans.

And you're still not happy.

#11 — March 20, 2008 @ 20:05PM — Dan

Actually, I think you might be right this time Dr. Dreadful.

It is sort of ground breaking that he acknowledge it, even if it's not in a way I'm entirely comfortable with.

glass half full I guess.

#12 — March 20, 2008 @ 21:12PM — Ruvy in Jerusalem [URL]

You condesending SOB...

You made my day, JOM. Fortunately for the Ethiopian Jews, the rest of us, and even the Arabs, I'm beginning to see the first rays of the Light of Redemption for my country.

And for yours, I'm seeing the dark at the end of the tunnel.

You have my permission to go back to the slime in th swamps of Joizey now.

Laters...

#13 — March 20, 2008 @ 21:20PM — JustOneMan

Ruvy....gee just imagin how life would be in your cess pool when we cut military and humanitairian aid, stop sending all of the food stamps, welfare checks and surplus cheese to israel...just imagine..

Ruvy and Obama - 2 morons praying for the fall of America and too stupid to see how it will kill them...

#14 — March 20, 2008 @ 21:23PM — Dave Nalle [URL]

Well, regardless of the unfocused outrage from JoM and Arch, the fact is that Obama admitting that there has been injustice to whites as a result of affirmative action is a HUGE step forward for democrats. To have one of their leaders acknowledge this is positively revolutionary.

Dave

#15 — March 20, 2008 @ 21:29PM — JustOneMan

Dave...the problem is Obama is NOT a leader in the Dumbocratic party...


JOM "Focused and staying the course"

#16 — March 20, 2008 @ 21:34PM — Jet in Columbus [URL]

Somehow I knew it was a good idea to stay out of the conversation...

#17 — March 20, 2008 @ 23:35PM — Whymrhymer [URL]

Dave, I didn't overlook Obama's commentary on the plight of the white community, I just didn't think it was relative to the point I was trying to make (aside from it being insincere): that point being, the government has done all it can do to eliminate discrimination, the only tool they have left is the quota -- which, I am happy to say, has been all but eliminated. And I absolutely agree, he "gets it" -- he understands all aspects of discrimination (or at least his speech writer does).

I would have to disagree, however, with your assertion that "empathy" makes anyone qualified for the presidency. To my mind, the president in particular and the government in general should be dealing with things like threats to our national security, the national debt and the trade deficit (obviously not an all-inclusive list) rather than with social issues like racism, gay marriage and abortion. That, however, is just me; and that is also why I would never be elected president.

Dr. Dreadful, (I am a HE by the way) Here we have a man running for president who makes the statement "I have never been so naïve as to believe that we can get beyond our racial divisions in a single election cycle, or with a single candidacy." If that doesn't imply exactly what I said, what does it mean? And yes, as I mention above, I believe that the government has already used all of it's Constitutional ammunition with those anti-discrimination laws. The laws are on the books yet Obama cries about racism that is still running rampant. What else can the government do besides pass laws -- unless you want it to get into mind-control.

Dan, I like your analysis of the situation!

Incidentally, Obama, Clinton and McCain are, in my opinion, all boneheads! Ergo, our next president will be a bonehead; now its just a matter of picking the least dangerous bone-head.

Whymrhymer

#18 — March 21, 2008 @ 02:00AM — Dave Nalle [URL]

Dave...the problem is Obama is NOT a leader in the Dumbocratic party...

If he wins the primary he certainly will be, no question.

I would have to disagree, however, with your assertion that "empathy" makes anyone qualified for the presidency.

I disagree. Empathy is necessary to understand others and their behavior. It's essential for diplomacy and for any kind of negotiating and that's a large part of the job of a president. Being distant and aloof usually isn't a good quality in a leader.

To my mind, the president in particular and the government in general should be dealing with things like threats to our national security, the national debt and the trade deficit (obviously not an all-inclusive list) rather than with social issues like racism, gay marriage and abortion. That, however, is just me; and that is also why I would never be elected president.

The trade deficit is no longer an issue. Fixing it has been one of Bush's major accomplishments. No democrat is going to deal responsibly with the national debt. National security can be addressed in a number of different ways, at least some of which I think Obama is up to, and I think his solutions would not be the absolute worst ones. The empathy thing factors in because he might actually listen to Republicans who are concerned about excessive spending on social programs rather than just blowing them off. He might even listen to economists with radical ideas other democrats might not entertain like privatizing social security. Hillary certainly isn't going to do that.

Dave

#19 — March 21, 2008 @ 03:51AM — Ruvy in Jerusalem [URL]

The trade deficit is no longer an issue. Fixing it has been one of Bush's major accomplishments.

Let's see. Bush dumped all of your money in the Tigris and the Euphrates and has been borrowing to cover the shortfall. So all Americans (unfortunately, that includes me - I'm still a citizen) are neck high in national unsecured debt. That drove your dollar down. The dollar being driven down has "solved" the trade deficit. What a "solution", Dave!

Bankruptcy to solve the trade deficit. Can you say "banana republic"? Let me get that barf bag!

#20 — March 21, 2008 @ 08:00AM — Whymrhymer [URL]

Dave: "The empathy thing factors in because he might actually listen to Republicans . . ."

You want empathy across party lines, McCain is definately your man! ;-)

Ruvy: "So all Americans (unfortunately, that includes me - I'm still a citizen). . ."

You could probably fix that citizenship problem real fast! Actually you should -- all that anti-American hostility can't be good for your blood pressure!

#21 — March 21, 2008 @ 08:19AM — JustOneMan

Yes...Saint Obama is one who transends race...

"The point I was making was not that my grandmother harbors any racial animosity, but that she is a typical white person. If she sees somebody on the street that she doesn't know (pause) there's a reaction in her that doesn't go away and it comes out in the wrong way."

Gee does that make Obama a typical Black person? A racists, one who plays the victim to deflect attacks and one who makes excuses for his misjugements and ethical failures because its the "white mans" fault?

I hope thats not representative of the "typical black" person!

JOM



#22 — March 21, 2008 @ 09:35AM — Ruvy in Jerusalem [URL]

You could probably fix that citizenship problem real fast! Actually you should -- all that anti-American hostility can't be good for your blood pressure!

I would - I probably should - but prudence dictates that I hold on to it until 2017 (if there is an America for that long) so I can attempt to collect Social Security (if there is still a fund worth collecting from - by then the dollar may be worth only a shekel or less!).

Sorry, Whymrhymer. The bitter truth is that America is an awful big dog - and when it takes a shit in my neighborhood (like Iraq or the Condibitch interfering in our anti-terror efforts, pathetic as they are) it leaves an awful big stink.

Whooff!!!

You see, you can't smell that stink from within America's borders, and that's why I tell you about it.

#23 — March 21, 2008 @ 11:05AM — REMF

Re #21;

Thank you for proving Barack's point, JOM.

#24 — March 21, 2008 @ 13:47PM — JustOneMan

Ruvy.....Welfare, military aid, free cheese and now Social Security.

Pretty funny hating AMERICA while sucking up American dollars...just like all other third world countries

#25 — March 21, 2008 @ 13:50PM — JustOneMan

REAMF #23

Thank you for finally admitting that Obama is aracists, one who plays the victim to deflect attacks and one who makes excuses for his misjugements and ethical failures because its the "white mans" fault.

Thanks!

JOM

#26 — March 21, 2008 @ 14:00PM — bliffle

nalle: "The trade deficit is no longer an issue. Fixing it has been one of Bush's major accomplishments."

hahahahahaha

#27 — March 21, 2008 @ 16:09PM — Dave Nalle [URL]

Bliffle, are you contending that the balance of trade has not been massively improved under Bush?

Dave

#28 — March 21, 2008 @ 20:58PM — Dan Miller

One of Senator Obama's comments frequently overlooked is

"For the African-American community, that path means embracing the burdens of our past without becoming victims of our past. It means continuing to insist on a full measure of justice in every aspect of American life. But it also means binding our particular grievances - for better health care, and better schools, and better jobs - to the larger aspirations of all Americans -- the white woman struggling to break the glass ceiling, the white man whose been laid off, the immigrant trying to feed his family. And it means taking full responsibility for own lives - by demanding more from our fathers, and spending more time with our children, and reading to them, and teaching them that while they may face challenges and discrimination in their own lives, they must never succumb to despair or cynicism; they must always believe that they can write their own destiny."

The part which begins with "and it means taking full responsibility for [our] own lives . . ." is very refreshing. It sounds almost (not quite, but almost) like Bill Cosby. To me, it is the crux of the problem or, if you will, the opportunity.

I do not think that Senator Obama plans to try to rectify past errors through legislation. We have had more than enough of that already. Besides, promises by presidential candidates to pass legislation to cure the nation's problems are, to me, generally vacuous. Legislation is the job of the Congress. the President leads and motivates. Remember TR's Bully Pulpit? That is a resource available more to the President than to anyone else, and if nominated and elected, I suspect that Senator Obama will use it vigorously. I hope so.

Dan Miller

#29 — March 22, 2008 @ 10:31AM — JustOneMan

Dan,

I agree! But he will probaly legislate that we eliminate the Pledge in public schools and replace it with either "Kumbia my Lord or "We are the World".

JOM

#30 — March 22, 2008 @ 10:36AM — Dan Miller

JOM

Yeah, maybe. Or how about "I'd like to buy the world a Coke and live in harmony."

Dan Miller

#31 — March 22, 2008 @ 11:11AM — REMF

"Obama is the best the Dumbocrats have had in years..and in fact if it comes down to him and "The Angry Old White Man" McCain -- I WILL BE VOTING FOR OBAMA...."
- JOM, Feb. 3, 2008

"Thank you for finally admitting that Obama is aracists, one who plays the victim to deflect attacks and one who makes excuses for his misjugements and ethical failures because its the "white mans" fault."
- JOM, #25

#32 — March 22, 2008 @ 18:29PM — Heloise

Hey I agree that no president can fix race in the WH with the stroke of a pen. But that institutionalized racism is dead is another matter. Anyway if that type of racism were dead why would there be any need to fix something not broken?

Public schools/education are the finest example of institutionalized racism that I can offer up. This is why we have NCLB to end as the shurb says: The soft bigotry of low expectations.

He probably did not write that but he said it and it IS true. Anyway, it pays the bills.

Heloise

#33 — March 22, 2008 @ 21:37PM — Kumari

If you want to end inequality in the schools the answer is vouchers. With all the black urban activists supporting vouchers obama might pass them before a republican.

#34 — March 23, 2008 @ 01:04AM — Zedd

Dave,

Not only does Obama get it but I would guess that 99.9% of Blacks get it. But it doesn't mean that affirmative action should thrown out. The fact that Whites don't like it doesn't mean that it should be a thrown out. Whites have not liked all of the civil rights initiatives. ALL of them Dave have been protested against with EVERY generation. Every generation, like yours today, thought they had plausible arguments.

You see the goal is not to keep Whites happy. The goal is to repair this nation and do the best we can to right our wrongs so that we can get as close as possible to who we have been claiming we are since our conception. The history which brings us to this point occurred to Blacks because they were Black, only. The solution should benefit Blacks as benefactors of the negative results, because they are Black.

How hard is that to understand?

#35 — March 23, 2008 @ 01:45AM — Zedd

Dan,

I would suppose that you would be perturbed if I were to write something about YOU taking responsibility for YOUR life, if you have worked since 15 and put yourself through college working several jobs at once, rose through the ranks in business, donated and volunteered and make it your responsibility to be engaged in a loving and positive manner with your fellowman on a daily bases regardless of their blatant disrespect.

Your statement is annoying and embarrassingly arrogant.

You see Dan, African Americans do take responsibility for their lives. You don't and haven't contributed a mili-cent to my livelihood or to any aspect of my lifestyle or successes, lest you float in your delusional state for a moment longer. Sober up and discard your White supremacist ideas and look at your real world. Every black person that you see working even at McDonald's is taking responsibility for their lives. Every Black child that is in school, is taking responsibility for their lives. YOU are not assisting them. What a meaningless existence one has when they are not so needed. Perhaps your delusion serves a purpose, it makes you feel more important than you are, more accomplished than you are, more responsible than you are. You are just as significant and actively taking responsibility for your life as Shaniqua at the grocery store down the road. Sorry to break it to you.

#36 — March 23, 2008 @ 04:53AM — Dave Nalle [URL]

Well Zedd, I guess you're in the .1% who don't get it then. You don't get that you can't cure injustice by creating more injustice.

It doesn't matter whether whites like or dislike affirmative action. It is a policy which is inherently unjust and oppressive and is therefore wrong.

The goal is to repair this nation and do the best we can to right our wrongs so that we can get as close as possible to who we have been claiming we are since our conception.

You cannot repair the nation by persecuting one group for the benefit of another. That was what caused the problem in the first place.

The history which brings us to this point occurred to Blacks because they were Black, only.

We are not living in the past. We are living in the present.

The solution should benefit Blacks as benefactors of the negative results, because they are Black.

Just as slavery benefitted whites because they were white.

How hard is that to understand?

Not hard at all. We call it 'racism'.

Dave

#37 — March 23, 2008 @ 15:21PM — Dan Miller

Zedd,

You commented:

"You see Dan, African Americans do take responsibility for their lives. You don't and haven't contributed a mili-cent to my livelihood or to any aspect of my lifestyle or successes, lest you float in your delusional state for a moment longer. Sober up and discard your White supremacist ideas and look at your real world. Every black person that you see working even at McDonald's is taking responsibility for their lives."

Do you consider Senator Obama a White supremacist as well? He said that amelioration of the racial divide -- and here he was speaking to the Black community --

"means taking full responsibility for own lives - by demanding more from our fathers, and spending more time with our children, and reading to them, and teaching them that while they may face challenges and discrimination in their own lives, they must never succumb to despair or cynicism; they must always believe that they can write their own destiny."

I thought Senator Obama put it rather well, and am sorry to have offended you by agreeing with him. If by virtue of having done so you conclude that I am a "White supremacist," well, so be it. I rather think that's your problem, and not mine.

In response to one of Dave Nalle's comments, you stated,

"Not only does Obama get it but I would guess that 99.9% of Blacks get it. But it doesn't mean that affirmative action should thrown out. The fact that Whites don't like it doesn't mean that it should be a thrown out."

I agree that affirmative action should not be thrown out simply because "Whites don't like it. . . " You are, almost certainly, more familiar with the Black community than I am or ever will be. However, I would ask you whether it has been truly productive and, if so, whether it needs to be continued in perpetuity. Is there at least a possibility that some aspects of affirmative action may have been contrary to the best interests of the Black community as well as of the White community?

You seemed to take quite personally my reference to Senator Obama's plea for Blacks to take responsibility for their own lives, and offered that I "haven't contributed a mili-cent to my livelihood or to any aspect of my lifestyle or successes . . ." Perhaps you misconstrued my comments as suggesting that NO Blacks have taken responsibility for their own lives. My comments certainly were not intended to suggest that, but the fact that you so construed them raises the possibility of a perception in the Black community that Whites are patronizing Blacks through affirmative action programs; or, at the very least, that Whites look down on all successful Blacks as having achieved their success via affirmative action programs on the backs of Whites. Not very encouraging, for any of us.

Think about it.

Dan Miller

#38 — March 23, 2008 @ 23:31PM — Zedd

Dan,

I don't remember anything in the speech which said that Blacks should take responsibility for their own lives.

I think you totally missed what was being said. Perhaps its because you have such simplistic ideas about race, especially Blacks that you just missed what was taking place.

#39 — March 23, 2008 @ 23:43PM — Zedd

Dave,

The only thing that could possibly hurt Blacks from Affirmative Action is a backlash from angry Whites.

So you are saying that we should dismantle Affirmative Action because it makes Whites mad and they retaliate, exacerbating the racist issues that put everyone in that position in the first place.

So the solution is that we need to find a solution that Whites like.

Whites will never admit to being the benefactors of our racist history. Whites males will never admit to advancing to the extent that they have because of their race and gender. There will not be a time when an equitable solution will be received because Whites don't see how they are unfairly advancing in this society, that they are not hussling as much as they think they are and that their effort is minscual compared to many others who have to play a mean chess game on so many fronts in order to complet a single days work... all that while Bob sucks on a toothpick and yuck yucks his way up the ladder (???).

#40 — March 23, 2008 @ 23:55PM — Zedd

Dave,

Its useless to respond sentence by sentence. One sentence does not an entire thought make. You dare respond to a single sentence knowing the statement that nullifies your comment was on the following statement, which you omitted in your rebuttal.

What goes on Dave? Either you cant think past a single sentence or you are afraid of and have no interest in a real dialogue. So which is it?

#41 — March 24, 2008 @ 00:26AM — Dave Nalle [URL]

Zedd, you're being disingenuous. I gave you a general response before moving on to disect your little racist diatribe sentence by sentence, because your general assumptions and each of your individual statements were equally wrong.

The only thing that could possibly hurt Blacks from Affirmative Action is a backlash from angry Whites.

And the only thing that could hurt whites about slavery was the possibility of a slave rebellion. I guess that makes it okay. Do you even read the stuff you write?

So you are saying that we should dismantle Affirmative Action because it makes Whites mad and they retaliate, exacerbating the racist issues that put everyone in that position in the first place.

Please point out where I said this, because I sure don't see it anywhere on this thread. The reason we should dismantle affirmative action is that it is unjust. Whether whites like it or not is irrelevant, as is whether blacks like it or not.

So the solution is that we need to find a solution that Whites like.

No, we need a solution which doesn't involve oppressing people on the basis of race.

Dave

#42 — March 24, 2008 @ 07:35AM — Zedd

Dave

If Whites have gained unfairly simply because of their race, how are they being oppressed if those who have lost unfairly because of their race are given a chance to succeed?

Your analogy about slave owners doesn't work for several reasons. I didn't point it out earlier because I thought you knew that and was just BS-ing. Essentially, the foundation for Affirmative Action is based on righting a wrong. Slave owners were not wronged. We could go further with this but that wont be necessary. That should suffice shouldn't it?

Now, what is your solution for evening the playing field? How do you create a world where "standing a chance" is clearly quantifiable and therefore doled out equitably in a society where not standing a chance for a specific population is more so an expectation?

There is no shangri la in these united states where Blacks are preferred as employees. The myth of Blacks making out like bandits is laughable and I should hope that you would agree. In my personal experience, one may have consistently been the best employee on her team; One may have put in the most hours, come up with the most solutions and been the most productive; In some cases one may have been the hidden arsenal for her superiors however, ones advancement will not match their efforts or contribution, comparably. One may be attractive, professional, feminine, and dress appropriately for the position (sounds rather arrogant but I have to illuminate the point); one may have been given accolades by their colleagues for being refined and pristine, however, being often the lead on my team, if an individual comes into our midst (new VP, etc) one will be ignored for months until they can show their capability because it will be assumed that they are not competent. The White guys will be the automatic go-to-guys on projects that I have initiated and pushed along at every stage. I have to push ahead with everyone on the team realising what is happening but pretending like its not so, credit being usurped by everyone including the village idiots. I am charged with the careful task of remaining professional, not displaying my frustration (else I'll be tagged angry and we know what that does to Blacks) not complaining to the new guy because it is inherently unbelievable that i would be good at my job (I would shatter his world ) sometimes I regain the due compensation (emotional, economic, etc) but often times its a game of start over again. But one dares not look exhausted. It will be perceived as ANGER or a lack of "team spirit". I've seen many who all of a sudden weren't a "good fit" because of the same reasons.

#43 — March 24, 2008 @ 08:38AM — Clavos

Zedd says (in #38):

"I don't remember anything in the speech which said that Blacks should take responsibility for their own lives."

From the transcript of the full speech, published by CNN:

"And it means taking full responsibility for own lives -- by demanding more from our fathers, and spending more time with our children, and reading to them, and teaching them that while they may face challenges and discrimination in their own lives, they must never succumb to despair or cynicism; they must always believe that they can write their own destiny."

That passage (and many others) is one of the reasons why the speech is being hailed as one of the greatest political speeches of our time. Senator Obama has proved his mettle before as an orator; this speech burnishes that image even more.

#44 — March 24, 2008 @ 09:53AM — Dan Miller

Zedd,

Thank you for your response to my comment.

Frankly, based on many of your posts, I had expected something more sophisticated than a purported unawareness that Senator Obama had said what he said and a comment that I

"totally missed what was being said. Perhaps its because you have such simplistic ideas about race, especially Blacks that you just missed what was taking place."

Obviously, you have no obligation to respond substantively to my posts or to those of anyone else. I had, however, looked forward to something more than you provided this time. Perhaps when you have more time you might have more to say.

Dan Miller

#45 — March 24, 2008 @ 10:58AM — Ruvy in Jerusalem [URL]

Zedd,

There is no Shangri-la in these United States where Blacks are preferred as employees. The myth of Blacks making out like bandits is laughable and I should hope that you would agree.....

In the world of private enterprise, the only "affirmative action" that I'm aware of is kissing ass. The only blacks who can make out like bandits in America's private sector are bosses. Not all do. Being your own boss is really rough, but the only lousy incompetent you can blame for the business' failing is the person in the mirror.

But in the world of the federal government, it was a whole different ball game. My wife, who was a federal employee for many years, had to deal with this from personal experience. Blacks were sort of left alone because nobody wanted to antagonize them, fearing an affirmative action lawsuit (or administrative hearing).

One woman, a professional who was feminine, well dressed, etc., accused my wife of stealing office equipment that my wife was responsible for, but which the woman bringing the suit had taken for her own personal use. This was only part of a larger series of accusations of prejudice (or bias) against employees in her own office and others in the department. My wife, who is not a confrontational woman at all, had a hard time dealing with the whole experience, but with some coaching from the pushy Brooklyn-born SOB who is her husband, she got through it alright. In the course of the hearing, the accusing woman's own problems with competence were revealed, she lost, and shortly after it ended she suffered a heart attack.

Obviously, this woman's view of her own contribution to the department's effective functioning differed from that of the administrative law judge, but in this instance, I have the distinct feeling that if she had subsumed her anger at not being recognized sufficiently to please her own amour propre into a stress releasing activity (like swimming or hiking - there was no blogging in those ancient days), she might not have suffered the heart attack she did.

No, this is not an indirect attack on the attractive, professional, and feminine lady discussed in comment #42 above. I'm not that low. That said, just because someone looks attractive and knows how to dress (like Condy Rice) does not make her competent.

#46 — March 24, 2008 @ 22:06PM — Zedd

Ruvy,

I never would stand up for all Black people, just as you should never stand up for all Jews. That would be suicide.

I never would suggest that ALL Black people are good but what I am addressing is the myth that Blacks are cruising because they are Black. That is simply ridiculous and shameful to even consider such a topic viable enough to discuss.

I would venture to guess that there were plenty of ridiculous things that were allowed because some White guy or disabled guy or White female may file a lawsuit. When Black people get away with the ridiculous, it's as if the heavens have failed us all. This is America, lawsuits rule and the vast majority of them were not and are not initiated by Blacks. It's just that it is annoying to HAVE to respect a Black so the nuisance factor rises and the exaggeration of incidence prevails.

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