Blogcritics Comments on Obama/Hagel '08: Is it Time for a Bipartisan Ticket?

Comment by Lee Richards on Obama/Hagel '08: Is it Time for a Bipartisan Ticket?

Wed, 27 Feb 2008 14:04:27 EST

"I have here in my hand a list..." -McCarthy "...it's pretty clear that he's evolved to that position from one which would be considered pretty much communist." -Nalle

Comment by Michael J. West on Obama/Hagel '08: Is it Time for a Bipartisan Ticket?

Wed, 27 Feb 2008 11:36:00 EST

Michael, I can also go at it from the other direction. Read Obama's political writings and his current political positions. He is clearly currently a socialist, and if you read his autobiography it's pretty clear that he's evolved to that position from one which would be considered pretty much communist. That's a far, far cry from "he was at one time an active Communist," Dave. You're backpedaling - and backpedaling hard. As for being a card-carrying CPUSA member, did I ever say that Obama was criminally stupid? No, you said that Obama was "an active communist." If he wasn't a member of the communist party, how was he an active communist? At this point, you're dismantling your own argument.

Comment by Bennett on Obama/Hagel '08: Is it Time for a Bipartisan Ticket?

Tue, 26 Feb 2008 21:29:30 EST

"I'm damned sure I never said anything remotely like that Obama currently advocates anything like communism." But your primary goal of making the association between Obama and Communism was achieved... Cheap shot.

Comment by Dr Dreadful on Obama/Hagel '08: Is it Time for a Bipartisan Ticket?

Tue, 26 Feb 2008 21:20:54 EST

Hell, Truman destroyed people for far less. I'm no fan of Truman either, Dave. Your point? 'Erstwhile' hardly describes the relationship From the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary: "erstwhile [...] : in the past : formerly" Pretty straightforward. Obama isn't running for president of the rest of the world, and I don't see any reason why we should tolerate an incremental slide into the hell they are living in. I'm not going to rise to this as I'm pretty sure you enjoy making those sorts of remarks just to see who you can upset.

Comment by Dave Nalle on Obama/Hagel '08: Is it Time for a Bipartisan Ticket?

Tue, 26 Feb 2008 21:08:19 EST

So basically, the only actual 'evidence' you can offer us to back up your claim that Obama was once a communist is that you say he was? Hell, Truman destroyed people for far less. Michael is right. By casting aspersions based solely on his erstwhile association with a prominent communist, you've arbitrarily removed from Obama the ability to think for himself and to develop politically. 'Erstwhile' hardly describes the relationship, which appears to have been profound and deeply influential. But I did say that Obama has evolved away from that early influence, rather clearly. I'm damned sure I never said anything remotely like that Obama currently advocates anything like communism. As for him being a socialist - come on. You've lived in Europe. You should know better than most of your compatriots that what Americans think of as 'socialist' barely even qualifies as radical in the rest of the world. Obama isn't running for president of the rest of the world, and I don't see any reason why we should tolerate an incremental slide into the hell they are living in. Dave

Comment by Doug DeLong on Obama/Hagel '08: Is it Time for a Bipartisan Ticket?

Tue, 26 Feb 2008 20:58:07 EST

Dave, When I referenced "underground right-wing sewers," Accuracy in Media is exactly what I was talking about. They are a right-wing smear machine who love to accuse people of being communists and whose founder, Reed Irvine, once famously demanded that Walter Cronkite be fired for being a "communist dupe." From their Wikipedia page... "Critics say AIM's attacks on the media seem to have little to do with actual misrepresentation or inaccuracies in media accounts. They assert that Irvine and AIM is quick to attack groups that do not fit in the group's ideological niche. Donald Graham, the publisher of The Washington Post, alleges that Irvine tends to "throw around accusations about people being communists. AIM has also been vigorously defensive of former Senator Joseph McCarthy, referring to his critics as "liars" and "communists," and defending his legacy, claiming that he never once fingered an innocent person in his accusations during the red scare he helped to fan." Frank Davis was a respected writer, poet, journalist and labor activist who got caught up in the communist witchhunts of the '50s when anyone who was left of center was accused by McCarthy and his ilk of being a communist. I thought we had progressed farther than that as a country. I guess it's making a comeback, though. Come on, Dave. You accuse Obama of being a communist and then as use this kind of garbage as evidence. You're a smart guy. Raise your game.

Comment by Bennett on Obama/Hagel '08: Is it Time for a Bipartisan Ticket?

Tue, 26 Feb 2008 20:35:31 EST

"Read Obama's political writings and his current political positions. He is clearly currently a socialist, and if you read his autobiography it's pretty clear that he's evolved to that position from one which would be considered pretty much communist." Wow Dave, a new low! Your "current" argument is "clearly pretty much"... horseshit. You must have had serious back room training at a corporate ad agency. "Tell a lie convincingly, and then tell it again and again until the stupid people believe you and start repeating it back to you." It's still a big load of crap.

Comment by Dr Dreadful on Obama/Hagel '08: Is it Time for a Bipartisan Ticket?

Tue, 26 Feb 2008 19:06:26 EST

I bet you'd be the first person to point fingers at any Republican congressmen who ever shook hands with Jack Abramoff even if that congressman never saw or spoke to Abramoff again. Keep your money in your pocket, Anon.

Comment by Dr Dreadful on Obama/Hagel '08: Is it Time for a Bipartisan Ticket?

Tue, 26 Feb 2008 18:59:20 EST

Dave: So basically, the only actual 'evidence' you can offer us to back up your claim that Obama was once a communist is that you say he was? Michael is right. By casting aspersions based solely on his erstwhile association with a prominent communist, you've arbitrarily removed from Obama the ability to think for himself and to develop politically. As for him being a socialist - come on. You've lived in Europe. You should know better than most of your compatriots that what Americans think of as 'socialist' barely even qualifies as radical in the rest of the world.

Comment by Dave Nalle on Obama/Hagel '08: Is it Time for a Bipartisan Ticket?

Tue, 26 Feb 2008 17:52:15 EST

Comment by Michael J. West on Obama/Hagel '08: Is it Time for a Bipartisan Ticket?

Tue, 26 Feb 2008 17:36:55 EST

Dr. D., he wasn't Obama's teacher, he was a close family friend and personal mentor. Their relationship was not instructor-student. It was much closer than that. The Guilt By Association fallacy is not made less fallacious by virtue of a closer association. Saying that someone was "at one time an active communist" (emphasis mine) is an allegation that inherently implies evidence. "Active" suggests that he was a documented member of CPUSA, or that he was a documented participant in activities or events sponsored by that party. The association with Frank Marshall Davis, regardless of how close, doesn't even amount to circumstantial evidence. Come on, Dave, surely you can muster up a better argument than this.

Comment by Dave Nalle on Obama/Hagel '08: Is it Time for a Bipartisan Ticket?

Tue, 26 Feb 2008 16:36:03 EST

Dr. D., he wasn't Obama's teacher, he was a close family friend and personal mentor. Their relationship was not instructor-student. It was much closer than that. Now if we called Obama a neocon because he lectured at the university of Chicago, that would be more of the kind of thing you're talking about. After all, the neocons taught at Chicago and so did Obama, ergo he must be a Neocon. Dave

Comment by Anon on Obama/Hagel '08: Is it Time for a Bipartisan Ticket?

Tue, 26 Feb 2008 16:10:37 EST

Is that the best YOU can do Dreadful? The analogy makes no sense to the issue at hand. We don't look at the son if the father turns out to be a killer. But if a person seeks out a mentor, is taken under the mentor's wing and admires the mentor and if that mentor turns out to be a communist/con-man/racketeer or whatever the case may be..then yes the disciple certainly deserves to be looked at. So Obama being associated with the communist doesn't make him a commie but it certainly is a legitimate reason to take a look in that direction. It might be futile but there is nothing wrong in it. I bet you'd be the first person to point fingers at any Republican congressmen who ever shook hands with Jack Abramoff even if that congressman never saw or spoke to Abramoff again. Guilt by association is completely legit there.

Comment by Dr Dreadful on Obama/Hagel '08: Is it Time for a Bipartisan Ticket?

Tue, 26 Feb 2008 15:56:04 EST

Is that the best you can do, Dave? One of my high school teachers ended up in prison for running a protection racket. Should I have gone down too because I was taught by him?

Comment by Dave Nalle on Obama/Hagel '08: Is it Time for a Bipartisan Ticket?

Tue, 26 Feb 2008 15:38:51 EST

Michael, I think that the history of Obama's association with CPUSA, Frank Davis and the DSA ought to be taken very seriously. There's an article at AIM which is a good place to start. As for accusations against Obama, the fact that some of them are ridiculous - mostl originating from the Clinton campaign - doesn't mean that we should blow off those which are authentic and serious. He may not be a muslim, but he does have other very unsavory associations. Dave

Comment by bliffle on Obama/Hagel '08: Is it Time for a Bipartisan Ticket?

Tue, 26 Feb 2008 14:58:58 EST

"#26 — Doug DeLong ... Yeah, I got it. He lost a couple of elections, so in your eyes he's a loser. A worthless human being apparently. Let's ridicule him and run him out of town on a rail. What a loser. " Not a very nice way to talk about Our Own Dave Nalle.

Comment by Doug DeLong on Obama/Hagel '08: Is it Time for a Bipartisan Ticket?

Tue, 26 Feb 2008 12:47:23 EST

Propa, Yeah, I got it. He lost a couple of elections, so in your eyes he's a loser. A worthless human being apparently. Let's ridicule him and run him out of town on a rail. What a loser. And yes, we all know that Bush and Cheney are winners. How could anyone possibly have anything negative to say about these two selfless servants of the people. They surely will go down in history as the saviors of mankind. Say Amen.

Comment by Dr Dreadful on Obama/Hagel '08: Is it Time for a Bipartisan Ticket?

Tue, 26 Feb 2008 12:45:28 EST

It can't be long now until we hear that Obama is really a neo-nazi and a serial-killer(to go along with being a communist drug-dealing anti-semitic Muslim terrorist.) He also took my ball in recess and wouldn't give it back!

Comment by Propagandist on Obama/Hagel '08: Is it Time for a Bipartisan Ticket?

Tue, 26 Feb 2008 12:38:15 EST

haha! Not that you would understand but I meant politically. Chris Dodd could not get a single delegate for himself..what exactly is he going to do for Obama? And Edwards is a political loser by all measures. His campaign was a joke. The guy had a socialist populist bullshit message and told everyone what they wanted to hear and what did it get him? 26 delegates; even though he had been basically working on his candidacy for over 6 years. That's a looser with a capital 'L'. And let me venture a guess into your psychology..you arent a fan of Bush/Cheney..even though both were quite successful in their personal/business/political lives. And yes I've heard all the - failed businessman/got in due to father's influence - arguements..so save it. Giuliani was very successful in his career too but I consider him a total loser in presidenital politics. But it was thrilling to hear your insights into my psychology :)

Comment by Lee Richards on Obama/Hagel '08: Is it Time for a Bipartisan Ticket?

Tue, 26 Feb 2008 12:37:30 EST

It can't be long now until we hear that Obama is really a neo-nazi and a serial-killer(to go along with being a communist drug-dealing anti-semitic Muslim terrorist.) I think a number of his detracters on the right want the beatable Clinton to run against rather than him, and will say anything and twist the facts shamlessly to slander and smear him and get her nominated.

Comment by Doug DeLong on Obama/Hagel '08: Is it Time for a Bipartisan Ticket?

Tue, 26 Feb 2008 12:16:50 EST

What is up with associating with loosers? That's rich...calling John Edwards a loser. Most people, even those who don't agree with his politics, would recognize that the man has had an extraordinarily successful life. It's been my experience that those who feel compelled to denigrate successful people usually do it because it makes them feel better about their own less-than-successful lives. But then I suppose Obama was against Kerry's endorsement before he was for it. Lame. Really lame.

Comment by Propagandist on Obama/Hagel '08: Is it Time for a Bipartisan Ticket?

Tue, 26 Feb 2008 12:03:06 EST

Obama seems to be collecting endorsements of all kinds of loosers and nuts. Farrahkhan to John Kerry to Chris Dodd today. I understand the nominee usually has no control over it, but he should at least not make a big deal of these endorsements. Obama is also coveting Edwards' endorsement..does a two time presidential nominee loser and one time VP loser really make a difference?! What is up with associating with loosers? And if I were the potential democratic nominee I'd stay as far away as possible from John Kerry. And Obama seems to let Kerry speak for him on news networks. If the last election proved anything, it was don't let Kerry open his mouth. But then I suppose Obama was against Kerry's endorsement before he was for it..

Comment by Michael J. West on Obama/Hagel '08: Is it Time for a Bipartisan Ticket?

Tue, 26 Feb 2008 11:37:29 EST

It occurs to me that Obama picking a Republican running mate would be the equivalent of admitting that the Dems have moved so far to the left that it's not possible to balance Obama with anyone from within their own party. If by "admitting that the Dems have moved so far to the left," you mean "pretending that they've moved to the left." The Dems have been moving deep into the center since at least 1996, probably before. Also, re #16, I've heard the bit with Obama's mentor being a communist - the tired old "guilt by association" fallacy - but this is the first time I've heard anyone say that Obama himself was "at one time an active communist." I presume you've got some tidbit of support for that accuation, Dave?

Comment by Doug DeLong on Obama/Hagel '08: Is it Time for a Bipartisan Ticket?

Tue, 26 Feb 2008 11:08:10 EST

Dave said: There's no truth to Obama being a muslim while it is absolutely true that he's a socialist and was at one time an active communist. Well, I see you've gotten a ticket for the "Smear Obama" express. Thanks for giving us a preview of coming attractions. If you have some actual evidence of this smear that didn't originate in some underground right-wing sewer, feel free to enlighten us. And if it has anything to do with Frank Marshall Davis, save your breath. "Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?" (Joseph Welch to Sen. Joe McCarthy, June 9, 1954)

Comment by Sue Martin on Obama/Hagel '08: Is it Time for a Bipartisan Ticket?

Tue, 26 Feb 2008 09:03:45 EST

I don't see how Obama can lose - after all, he will fix your computer (and more!)