Blogcritics Comments on Obama and Plagiarism

Comment by Irene Wagner on Obama and Plagiarism

Sat, 23 Feb 2008 18:59:09 EST

#28 With the rise of McCain at the head of the GOP we may well see the Neocons moving back towards the democratic party... Why would this be so? Did you not know that Max Boot, Bill Kristol, Robert Kagan and Randy Scheunemann were McCain's foreign policy advisors before you made that statment? #32... a lot of more mainstream politicians don't quite grasp the philosophical underpinnings of the movement. So, is Senator John McCain one of those more mainstream politicians....or....? #32 I wonder if the Neocons have a mind-control ray or something. Now, Dave Nalle, why would the Neocons need a silly thing like that when they're already foreign policy advisors to McCain?

Comment by Dave Nalle on Obama and Plagiarism

Sat, 23 Feb 2008 17:40:00 EST

I wonder if the Neocons have a mind-control ray or something. My theory on the Neocons is that they offer a pool of foreign policy talent and expertise which some find very appealing, and a lot of more mainstream politicians don't quite grasp the philosophical underpinnings of the movement. As for Max Boot, he's not a pureblood neocon. He's more of a fellow-traveller. I sympathize with him a lot, because his formative years in the Soviet Union likely skewed his perspective, as my teen years there did for me. Dave

Comment by Irene Wagner on Obama and Plagiarism

Sat, 23 Feb 2008 16:00:46 EST

Max Boot and Randy Scheunemann also advise McCain on foreign policy, and THEIR tags are sans the humiliating "informal" designation. I don't know Dave Nalle. Maybe McCain wanted to make the PNAC-appointed president of the Committee for the Liberation of Iraq feel EXTRA SPECIALLY involved. If one's wanting to make neoconservatives feel welcome at a party, what better person to have in attendance than MAX BOOT? Yes, McCain may retain some foreign policy advisors who AREN'T neoconservatives. Still, the fact that he's seeking foreign policy advice from so many neocon luminaries--that lobs the burden of proof that he's NOT being influenced by neoconservatives SQUARELY into somebody else's side of the tennis court. This may some shed light on the mystery of McCain's mid-nineties change of heart on foreign policy. It was "let's get out of Lebanon" and it was "no" to Iraq Part I, but then suddenly, in 1999 McCain's became gung ho about intervening in Kosovo, and his 100 year plan for Iraq is becoming legendary.

Comment by Dave Nalle on Obama and Plagiarism

Sat, 23 Feb 2008 15:00:56 EST

Interesting list, Irene. I'm not sure how large a role an 'informal adviser' plays in a campaign or an administration. Sounds like a tag you put on someone just to make them feel like they're involved. Colin Powell is also on McCain's list, and he's certainly no neocon. And speaking of Neocons, Obama has Brzezinski father and son on his list, and that's about as bad as having Bill Kristol, if in a different direction. I'd submit that the neocons are at least marginally less eager to sell out US sovereignty to foreign interests than Brezynski is. Plus, talk about interventionism. He pretty much defined it. Hell, he created Osama bin Laden for all intents and purposes. Dave

Comment by Irene Wagner on Obama and Plagiarism

Sat, 23 Feb 2008 13:57:27 EST

Bill Kristol and Robert Kagan are foreign policy advisors for McCain. William Kristol and Robert Kagan were COFOUNDERS of the Project of the New American Century. The neoconservatives will find a warm welcome and a cozy home wherever they look for one. Until people start waking up.

Comment by Dave Nalle on Obama and Plagiarism

Sat, 23 Feb 2008 12:06:40 EST

Oh, and it's not a joke about Hillary the neocon. With the rise of McCain at the head of the GOP we may well see the Neocons moving back towards the democratic party where they were firmly ensconced during the Truman era. Dave

Comment by Dave Nalle on Obama and Plagiarism

Sat, 23 Feb 2008 12:04:16 EST

Pablo's discussion of the difference between Neocons and traditional conservatives is good, but wrong or incomplete in two areas. First, traditional conservatives are NOT particularly hot over border issues. That's a recent development and has nothing to do with conservatism. Second, he omitted the key element of neoconservatism, the belief in a stalinist-style expansionist foreign policy. Most traditional conservatives believe in a trade based foreign policy which is generally non-interventionist. Dave

Comment by Pablo on Obama and Plagiarism

Thu, 21 Feb 2008 15:53:23 EST

Oh and Obnoxious American? If you are (which I highly doubt) going to attempt to open your mind just a wee bit, while you are googling William Kristol, you might also google Leo Strauss. I am amazed that people who have called themselves "conservatives" for years have been taken in by the neo cons. Here are a few primary examples of the main differences between them, aside from the fact that neocons love despotic forms of government, and hate the US constitution. Mainstream conservatives are fiercly for the 2nd amendment. Neocons are not. Mainstream consvs are for secure borders, neocons are not. Mainstream consvs are for a balanced budget, neocons are for deficit spending for the FED. Mainstream consvs are very anti communist, neo cons are not only not particulary anti communists, numerous of their ranks have been involved in communistic endeavors. In my opinion what most "conservatives" fail to see is that their whole platform was derailed years ago, by such luminaries as Newt Gingrich, who recently openly called for restrictions on the 1st amendment. I however will be the first to admit that the "liberals" have been just as co-opted as their counterparts. One last thing Obnoxious, if you are searching for the truth, you are going to need all the help you can get, my hunch is that you think that you already know it, hence your pen name. I do doubt very much that you were aware of William Kristol's illustrious past, or Leo Strauss. I suspect that you also probably think that the NRA is a pro second amendment group, if you do try checking out "Gun Owners of America". There you will find a true second amendment group, not a shill for the New World Order such as the NRA. Good Luck Obnoxious your going to need it. :)

Comment by Irene Wagner on Obama and Plagiarism

Thu, 21 Feb 2008 11:49:24 EST

OB-noxiousameric-AMA: This thread is sadly hilarious, especially with Dr D's tautologically bad pun. Seriously though, Obnoxious American, connecting the dots between Trotsky and modern neoconservatives isn't difficult, and you don't have to use sources you might consider to be "out-there" conspiracy theorists to do it. Find for yourself in-context quotes by Irving Kristol (considered to be the "godfather" of Neoconservatism) and then follow through to the writings of his son Bill Kristol to whom he passed the mantle. The crux of it is: Communists steeled themselves for perpetual aggressive war, believing that Communism could not be sustained in a world that had mixed political ideologies. Neoconservatives recommend the same militaristic outlook, except with the neoconservatives, the goal is to spread-- aggressively--"democracy" throughout the world in the interests of "national security." The US, of course, is TECHNICALLY (e.g., by the Constitution) a "representative republic" not a "democracy." "Democracy" is a useful, all-purpose term for the form of government the neoconservatives wish to export. Why in Iraq, it can even mean Sharia Law! Whichever of the three, McCain, Clinton, or Obama gets elected, expect US soldiers to be stationed (some of them for third, fourth tours) in Iran possibly Pakistan, and probably still Iraq. That's why I jokingly called you OBnoxiousamericAMA, because after all the campaign lies about ending the war have been tucked away after inauguration day 2009 (just as they were after the 2006 elections) you might actually find yourself in the position of defending Obama's (or Clinton's) foreign policy.

Comment by Clavos on Obama and Plagiarism

Thu, 21 Feb 2008 01:04:34 EST

"bad puns" Isn't that a tautology??? Notice how it's always Doc who starts 'em?

Comment by The Obnoxious American on Obama and Plagiarism

Thu, 21 Feb 2008 00:59:47 EST

Lolll, this thread is sadly hillarious. Let's see: Mike Johnston: "This is the same philosophy most often espoused by conservative pundits and talk show hosts. It seems accurate to me." So you are rejecting my reality and substituting your own eh? Irene Wagner: "On the subject of foreign policy, there are no significant differences among McCain, Obama and Clinton, whether they identify themselves as neoconservatives or not. They all march to the drumbeat of AIPAC. " Yeah, sure. Pablo: "How about knowing many Neo-cons that were once communists? How about William Kristol the founder of American neoconservatism?" Uhh you got me there buddy. I guess this whole time I was a commie and I didn't know it. Thanks for the info! Don't let me confuse you all with the truth now.

Comment by Irene Wagner on Obama and Plagiarism

Thu, 21 Feb 2008 00:35:11 EST

I'm going back into pre-vernal-equinox hiding now, Dr. Dread. Not so much to avoid a gun control argument, but to avoid hearing any more bad puns!

Comment by Dr Dreadful on Obama and Plagiarism

Thu, 21 Feb 2008 00:25:41 EST

No, Irene, they're anti-semiautomatics... (I know, I know...!)

Comment by Irene Wagner on Obama and Plagiarism

Thu, 21 Feb 2008 00:23:04 EST

It's new fodder for the endless Second Amendment Rights discussions: GUN CONTROL ADVOCATES ARE ANTI-SEMITES?

Comment by Irene Wagner on Obama and Plagiarism

Wed, 20 Feb 2008 23:46:43 EST

JOM, Jews for the preservation for Firearms Ownership is nothing if not Jewish AND conservative. The JPFO author of the article linked to here is a fan of neither the US Middle Eastern wars nor neoconservatism.

Comment by Dr Dreadful on Obama and Plagiarism

Wed, 20 Feb 2008 23:38:33 EST

I'm a liberal who was once conservative. How's that?

Comment by Pablo on Obama and Plagiarism

Wed, 20 Feb 2008 23:33:44 EST

JOM You said: "It is public knowlege that neocon is a liberal word for right-wing Jews and those who they influence." Public knowleDge it is not, and upon searching on the internet, I have not come across such public knowledge, unless you were referring to little-known blogs, that make a rare reference to your assertion. OBNOXIOUS AMERICAN, You said in Post 5: "Now, I don't know many conservatives who were once liberals." How about knowing many Neo-cons that were once communists? How about William Kristol the founder of American neoconservatism? My guess is that you dislike liberals even more than communists. Snicker I do however like your pen name, you chose a very apt one.

Comment by JustOneMan on Obama and Plagiarism

Wed, 20 Feb 2008 20:38:31 EST

Mike you did... No need to go to the classic defense,"some of my best friends are Jewish, Black, Asian, etc." It is public knowlege that neocon is a liberal word for right-wing Jews and those who they influence.. JOM

Comment by Irene Wagner on Obama and Plagiarism

Wed, 20 Feb 2008 20:38:19 EST

Mike, Judaism isn't monolithic, any more than Christianity is. Antisemitism is a common charge against critics of Neoconservatism, even though many Jews are very much opposed to AIPAC's policies. If your article had been published 5 years ago, the article's title alone would have caused those charges to be RAINED down in your comments.

Comment by Mike Johnston on Obama and Plagiarism

Wed, 20 Feb 2008 19:59:40 EST

Who brought Jews into the discussion? So you are saying that, if someone doesn't believe in the Neocon philosophies they are anti-semitic? Interesting. If you read the comments above you might note that The Obnoxious American said that the term Neocon was used to describe Nazi's in Hitler's time and now you are saying that Neocons are controlled by Jews? So if you combine the two then Neocons are Nazis controlled by the Jews? Ok, if that is what you want to think.... Personally I am not at all anti-semitic. I have Jewish friends and black friends and Asian friends for that matter. I myself am more than a little Native American for whatever that is worth in this discussion. I am probably pretty much a centrist politically too so the "raving liberal" thing just doesn't apply either.

Comment by Irene Wagner on Obama and Plagiarism

Wed, 20 Feb 2008 19:49:16 EST

What distinguishes McCain from Obama and Clinton (the latter two being distinguished only by levels of melatonin and bitchiness) are the social issues with which they are pandering to social liberals and social conservatives. JOM -- Read the Statement of Principles on the above link to the neoconservative's Project for a New American Century. With which of these objectives would Hillary disagree? On the subject of foreign policy, there are no significant differences among McCain, Obama and Clinton, whether they identify themselves as neoconservatives or not. They all march to the drumbeat of AIPAC.

Comment by JustOneMan on Obama and Plagiarism

Wed, 20 Feb 2008 19:41:04 EST

Isnt anti-neocon the liberal code word for "Jews are those controlled by the Jewish lobby"? Sort of a politcally correct anti-semitism.. JOM

Comment by Mike Johnston on Obama and Plagiarism

Wed, 20 Feb 2008 19:15:24 EST

Hi Obnoxious, I was using the term Neocon in it's common form wherein it refers to Reagan era conservatives and their descendants. This defenition is verified by the first part of the Wikipedia article from which you quote: "Neoconservatism is a political philosophy that emerged in the United States from the rejection of social liberalism and the New Left counter-culture of the 1960s. It influenced the Ronald Reagan, George H. W. Bush, and the George W. Bush presidential administrations, representing a re-alignment in American politics, and the defection of liberals to the right-hand side of the political spectrum" This is the same philosophy most often espoused by conservative pundits and talk show hosts. It seems accurate to me. Dave, this use of the word Evildoer and the picture it conjures for me and why, was an insight into how the shenanigans of the Neocon group affects my thoughts. I seldom hear people use the term in relation to bad people in everyday life. Although the possibilities are kind of entertaining: Police Officer: C'mon guys, let's go round up these Evildoers. Teacher: Oh my god these little Evildoers are out of control! Parent: Get inside this house you Evildoer you! Preacher: May God rain his judgment down on the Evildoers. Hey wait a minute, that last one works. Ok, maybe that is the problem with the term. I am just waiting for George Bush to finish the sentence like a preacher.

Comment by JustOneMan on Obama and Plagiarism

Wed, 20 Feb 2008 18:47:48 EST

What does a person who has as "much individual intelligence as any other block of wood" sound like..... "Perhaps originally but the right wing radio talk people were all over it yesterday and so it was them I focused on." Pretty funny stuff..more proof that liberalism is a mental disorder JOM "Libs...it really doesnt matter if its true or not"

Comment by JustOneMan on Obama and Plagiarism

Wed, 20 Feb 2008 18:42:59 EST

SO Hillary is a neo-conservative? Gee when did that happen... JOM "Neocons for Hillary"