This is ridiculous. Everyone speaks of Hillary's win on Tuesday as if it was completely out of the blue - coming from a dying candidate who had held little to no lead for months. The truth of the matter is that she had held a lead over Obama exceeding 20 points nationally and within New Hampshire for over a year! It was only in the past few weeks just prior to and the few days following Iowa where the ever accurate polling pundits found her lead to fall. I mention this if only to enter some perspective into this row.

Hillary was firing her staff and bringing in Billl's old crew to take over. Sounds like she thought she was on the ropes too.

It is time to pass the torch away form Clinton-Bush divisive politics of the past 20 years. It is time to move forward !
I hope we have an independent candidate to vote for if Hillary is nominated because I will vote against the Dems for the first time. I fail to see how Clinton can stand for a new direction this country desperately needs.

And I thought I had only contempt for Hillary Rodham Clinton.

Hhhmmm...I thought those tears might work against her, actually. The question is: Is the USA ready for a woman or black man as president? Obama is still a guy. There are many countries of the world with female leaders. I guess the USA is way behind the times...

Typical media, outthinking the question.

Honestly, I have no irons in this particular fire but I'm starting to hope she wins just os I can watch the psychotic reactions of the anti-Hillerites all screaming and yammering about the coming apocalypse in unison.

it should be fun.

Also, the Obama message of 'hope'... hhhmmm... isn't hope for suckers? Hope also sounds like desperation for someone without a plan.

Hillary is a Chicago area woman raised in the 50s. One thing I do know, women from that region during that time are tough and compassionate gals.

Maybe the tears represent the fact that domestic policy will not be overlooked. You know what could be fixed on our own soil with the hundreds of billions of dollars being pissed away on a war overseas?

The only "proof" anyone can offer for HRC's tears being fake rather than real is the existing prejudice of the person expressing the opinion. It goes like this: HRC is a lying opportunist; therefore the incident in the diner is another example of lying opportunism. Nothing has been [or can be] proven or not proven about what was going on in a person's head and emotions. How convenient for snarky web political analysis.

It's pretty rare for any presidential candidate, present or past, to offer detailed policy proposals. They will never get enacted in proposed form anyway, and they provide too much ammunition for the other side. [Although one of Dave's least favorite candidates, John Edwards, has by far the most detailed policy proposals on his web site.]

In our media age, style will trump substance. This is not a great thing. But I do hope this year that positive ideals [Barack's Hope, Clinton's "Thanks for helping me find my voice, now let me fight for you," McCain's emphasis on honor and courage and principle] will trump cynical, soul-killing attack ads as the main definer of the campaign.

The GOP will be tempted to go negative if HRC is their opponent. But the public may reject negativism more soundly than ever this year.

That's one reason I think it may yet be a McCain vs. Obama "nice guy" campaign in the fall. And if Obama and Huckabee are the VP nominees instead, the "nice wins" principle may still apply.

Hey, Dave, congrats on a nice one. I see you too are taking lessons from Heloise on writing headlines. I should get paid for bringing up the style on BC. Netemara put the 'net' in netroots. It is for sure style over substance every freakin moment here on BC...just kidding. We get the substance right too sometimes.

Heloise

Listen, I think Jesse Jackson Jr (national campaign manager for Obama) got it right he wants to know where were the tears for Katrina, for the soldiers in Iraq, for her dead friend Benazir Bhutto. That's what I want to know, where were her tears then?

Hell, it's tough getting in front of students every day too, and I have cried many a day because of it.

She may not be scripted but she sure is convenient.

Heloise

Is crying the cure for lackluster polls? It is really one hell of a gamble. Talk about throwing the dice on this one, oh boy, Bill's "world class genius," guessed damn right. And now it was the right time for this wild west woman to take off the pants and show her stuff.

Heloise

People, Hillary insiders are jumping ship and going over to the Obama CAMP...hello... She may be firing some people, but others are leaving.

Saying hope does not sell like soapflakes is like saying that once you've heard MLK speak his message is now stale. WRONGO!! He has newsmen in there crying or near tears. Maybe we should show some newspeople crying while listening to Obama. THere's a soap opera for you. John Kerry was on fire while talking about Obama, you can't pay for that kind of press.

What you forget about great men and great messages is this (and I know wherof I speak) they say the same damn thing over and over, they just change their ties and shirts. Does it get old? Are people still seeing the MLK and Ghandi as saints of course, and not just because they're dead. Ann Coulter called it right when she said that JFK was the saint of the Dems. I'd never thought of it that way before.

Anyway, good article.

Heloise "the master of style over substance"

Hey Dave glad we see eye to eye on this one.

Heloise

Funny, this reminds me of when I said George Bush was a great hugger and people said yeah he is. George Bush the hugger and Hillary Clinton the misty-eyed wonder.

Hey Dave glad we see eye to eye on this one.

Heloise

Looks like like the video got munged by the RTF editor. All lovely now.

And thanks for your zillion comments, Heloise. Take some Ritalin now.

Dave

WhAAAHHH! HRC tears up to manuipulate foolish females into voting for their "sister". As President will HRC tear up when Iran's dictator tell her to take a flying leap...when N. Korea decides to build nukes or when she can't get her way with Congress? PATHETIC. Real leaders (who happen to be women) like Condi and Thatcher never needed to squirt to get their way. PS As a woman myself, HRC's antics are an embarrasment.

This is a test. It is only a test. If it were a real issue, you would be given detailed instructions.

1. Of all the presidents over the past one hundred years, which do you most admire? Elvis, Madonna, Brittany, OJ . . .

2. Of all the present candidates, which (if any) comes even close?

I can answer question 1, with ease. Question 2 is more difficult.

Hey, we are forgetting the obvious here with Hill's tears: Women are THE GREATEST fakers on earth. I mean this is classic woman 101. We need to ask Bill about Hill's faking on the home front.

Heloise

Heloise,

Far be it from me to disparage the female sex, but I can't agree with you too much (as Sen. Kefauver SP) was wont to say.

I have always found that politicians are far better than mere women at faking things. And here you have both a woman AND a politician.

Oh well.

Dan

I'll say it again:
If she's faking, she's brilliant at it. She should win an Oscar.

Frank Rich says he thinks the defining moment occurred at last Saturday's debate, when HRC said about reports that people find her less likable than Obama: "Well that hurts my feelings. But I'll try to go on." And he, unnecessarily and churlishly, said, "You're likable enough, Hillary." In that instance, her humor worked, and his was temporarily on the blink.

I like 'em both. I want them to avoid tearing each other to pieces so they can still be on the same ticket in November. Her forcefulness and his eloquence would win against any GOP ticket.

Among those who have publicly expressed their belief in the sincerity of HRC's tears-in-the-diner episode:
Karl Rove
Pat Buchanan
Ralph Reed

Their opinions don't prove anything either. But I don't like the way Dave and others present it as just a given that it was a manipulative ploy.

Heloise (re:#12). Regarding firings or those jumping ship. Politics is a really tough gig. Those jumping ship just don't have what it takes. We don't know... Who cares? She brought on a good team? We'll see.

I love everyone getting their panties in an uproar over 'real' tears. It doesn't matter.

It goes to show how trivial the 'democracy' of the people (that includes everyone of you USA citizens) is. How weasely and lame our power of democracy has gotten.

People use the weakest, most insignificant point as if some major point. Geez, you think any of this trivia has anything to to with anything? I guess it does to the trivial mind.

Think of this. One reason I am for Hillary is that it means that 1/3rd of the USA population will have had lived in a country served by either a Bush or a Clinton. That is the closest we have come to a Monarchy in this country...okay, just a thought...

OK, Hillary is woman who is so hard (iron fist), yet so soft (tears). We need that right now. I am sick of the white noise coming out of the mouths of the USA male right now. White noise has nothing to do with race. It is an audio technical term. Look it up. Katie Couric ROCKS!! Good move CBS!

Notice how I did not use the term "America" during this comment? Yeah, get it straight you arrogant people. America refers to the new world. There is North America, Central America, South America. Many individual countries. So what gives us the idea we are 'the America'.

I guess all I am saying, get your s*** together people. This country is so messed up we can't even see straight. I guess it is time to go f*** yourself. Don't try f-ing me.

OK, that is my rant.

best,
DM

OK, Hillary is woman who is so hard (iron fist), yet so soft (tears).


Bzzz......wrong.

Hillary is a women so calculating in her personal quest for power that she will appear tough when her handlers think the situation calls for it and soft in other situations where her handlers have deemed it most beneficial to her quest.

That is not what the nation needs.

Arch... you sound like a heck of a paranoid, sniveling for some weak assed reasoning.

"Hillary is so calculating", SO F-ING WHAT!! That is how you play any game of success. Geez, what if any coach or player on the football field was NOT calculating?! Every moment of the game you are calculating what play to run, how much energy has to go out towards certain opponents on the other team, etc.

Sorry ARCH. THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT KIND OF PERSON WE NEED. Someone calculating what is best. Right now we have some hoh-de-doh hick in office with no idea about anything he is doing. Are you saying that is what the USA needs? sorry, that is for LOSERS. And the USA is losing really big time right now on the world market.

Calculating means you have a vision and a drive to win and accomplish. It means you are thinking. Don't try making the word 'calculating' into a 'bad' word.

Calculating is a word (like any) that is defined by the exucution of the word. Your police department has to calculate how to catch a criminal. In your world you would rather have the cops run around like chickens with their heads cut of hoping to maybe catch a crook. Calculating is bad.

Calculating means thinking about what you are doing. Hillary is being smart, not evil. Right wing nut jobs (like you?) are weaseling for the lamest of excuses....

LOSER!

best,
DM

To take it one step further...'in her quest for power'.... SO WHAT! That is what the position of President of the United States IS!

Every single candidate is on a quest for power. Period. If you are not there in a so-called quest for power, then we don't need anyone in office like that. Can't have some wimp running this country.

Is is just a matter how one uses that power. Currently we have a horrible mis-use of power in office. The result: besides a lot of dead, we have a country in horrible debt. We need that power from a credible person to dig us out of this hole.

Funny how the last Clinton had the country ridin' high. Took a Bush to blow it. Hillary as President with a former President who knew what he was doing (the pee-pants level of mentality of prosecution over the Lewinsky deal was typical of moron USA) in the White House is a pretty powerful team. Great to have such an advisor around.

Hey, we need that sort of power to dig the USA out of the hole it is in.

pissed off,
DM

Dave,

First you go on about how the Dem NH primary turned on race. Now its Clinton's tears. Which was it? Boy, a lot of shit went down in 5 days.
Clinton is one calculating bitch and the NH voters are apparently racist pigs.

Or not.

We discussed this on the show last week. You kept your own counsel on this issue while Mark, Clavos and I profered our opinions. You were obviously saving your salvos for this article.

I can't prove that Hillary's tearing up was not faked, but then, neither can you prove that it was. You simply assume it because you find Hillary so objectionable. Your prejudice against the Clintons blinds you to the possiblity that the moment was genuine, which I believe it was.

Actually, your assumption that that brief moment turned a significant number of women voters away from Obama is pretty sexist. You make the assumption that the women who ostensibly changed their vote are apparently shallow and clueless about real politics. Good going, Dave.

I doubt that any of the candidates on either side of the coin will be particularly forthcoming with specifics at this juncture. Frankly, I can't recall an election, or at least a primary season during which many candidates got deep into details regarding the campaign issues, except perhaps HRP with his pie charts. The primaries, perhaps more than any other elections are largely beauty contests. Who's got the tightest butt and who has the best answer for how to bring about world peace - or is that whirled peas?

You are crying in your beer about how apparently uninformed the voting public is. I believe that is generally true; most people do not involve themselves in politics. It is, perhaps, regrettable, but it should be understood that most people have other interests and needs that consume much of their time.

There is always someone ready to accuse others of not being responsible or caring regarding a variety of issues. Environmentalists, PITA members, among others love to accuse others of not being "involved." A number of people simply have other things going on in their lives.
Should they concern themselves regarding politics? Sure, but I don't blame them overly much. Life is hard.

Another thing. Even if Hillary's "outburst" was planned, so what? How many other underhanded ploys have been used by pols to influence votes? Tricky Dick used a few in his day. Many of his
"dirty tricks" were prosecutable. It just pisses you off that, if you are correct about Clinton's moment having been staged, it may have worked.

Again, I don't believe that the moment was staged. I also think equating it with Muskie's melt down is ludicrous. Muskie lost it. If it was faked, it was a monstrous miscalculation. Hillary's moment was just that, a moment. I don't think she's been enrolled at The Actor's Studio. I don't think she's had the time to work on her "method" acting to learn how to evoke emotion memory to produce a seemingly organic teary-eyed moment. Your assumption just doesn't follow. You can be so wide eyed accepting of the pols you like and so cyncial about those you don't. That belies your objectivity.

B-tone

First you go on about how the Dem NH primary turned on race. Now its Clinton's tears. Which was it? Boy, a lot of shit went down in 5 days.
Clinton is one calculating bitch and the NH voters are apparently racist pigs.

Well, it could be a bit of both or it could be neither. That's what makes it all so interesting, no?

We discussed this on the show last week. You kept your own counsel on this issue while Mark, Clavos and I profered our opinions. You were obviously saving your salvos for this article.

I had actually already written most of this article, but it needed some punching up so I held it off until last night.

I'm not 100% convinced that either of the takes I've written up on the issue is correct, but I think they're valid scenarios worth considering.

I can't prove that Hillary's tearing up was not faked, but then, neither can you prove that it was. You simply assume it because you find Hillary so objectionable. Your prejudice against the Clintons blinds you to the possiblity that the moment was genuine, which I believe it was.

Now hold on a sec. I don't have a prejudice against 'The Clintons'. I'm quite fond of Bill, really. And I do dislike Hillary, but I think suspicions of her motives and actions are justified based on her past behavior and the quality of people she has advising her. That level of duplicity and ruthlessness pervades her campaign and it means that the tears being contrived makes more sense than not.

Actually, your assumption that that brief moment turned a significant number of women voters away from Obama is pretty sexist. You make the assumption that the women who ostensibly changed their vote are apparently shallow and clueless about real politics. Good going, Dave.

And I stand by it, but it's not sexist. I didn't suggest it was because they were women. My explanation would be that people as a whole are easily duped and swayed by emotion. That's the whole point of the article, and the fact that it was mostly women in this case is largely coincidental.

I doubt that any of the candidates on either side of the coin will be particularly forthcoming with specifics at this juncture.

Thompson actually has been. If you go to his website there are some remarkably detailed position papers.

Another thing. Even if Hillary's "outburst" was planned, so what?

You're right. It doesn't matter if it was planned or not. It lowers the level of the campaign regardless of whether it was calculated or natural. And if it was natural, then Hillary is even more at fault, because she ought to be able to control herself better.

Again, I don't believe that the moment was staged. I also think equating it with Muskie's melt down is ludicrous. Muskie lost it.

Watch the Muskie video again sometime. He hardly 'lost it'. It was actually rather more understated than Hillary's little moment.

If it was faked, it was a monstrous miscalculation. Hillary's moment was just that, a moment. I don't think she's been enrolled at The Actor's Studio. I don't think she's had the time to work on her "method" acting to learn how to evoke emotion memory to produce a seemingly organic teary-eyed moment. Your assumption just doesn't follow. You can be so wide eyed accepting of the pols you like and so cyncial about those you don't. That belies your objectivity.

Actually, I'm cynical about all of them. And where did you get the impression I actually LIKE any of them?

Dave

Dave,

In both of these articles you come on like gang busters stating your case as if they were hard, proven fact, when neither have been, nor likely will be.

"And I stand by it, but it's not sexist. I didn't suggest it was because they were women. My explanation would be that people as a whole are easily duped and swayed by emotion. That's the whole point of the article, and the fact that it was mostly women in this case is largely coincidental."

Baloney! If your suggestion is regarding "people as a whole" your premise obviously does not hold. It only works IF the majority of women changed their votes. That would not be merely coincidence.

"I don't have a prejudice against 'The Clintons'. I'm quite fond of Bill, really. And I do dislike Hillary" Say what?

You could have fooled me. In the several months I have been reading your posts, I am hard pressed to find anything positive you have ever written about either of them.

"It doesn't matter if it was planned or not. It lowers the level of the campaign regardless of whether it was calculated or natural. And if it was natural, then Hillary is even more at fault, because she ought to be able to control herself better."

The only reason it doesn't matter is that we can't prove it one way or the other. It would, of course, in theory at least, be easier to prove that it was staged as someone would necessarily have to know, and he, she or they could blab. It's much harder to prove the negative. Certainly, if it was proven to have been planned, then it would make a HUGE difference.

I'm not with you on the notion that it "lowers the level of the campaign." Do you really think it better that people continue to believe that Hillary is an imperious bitch? That she has no more human and humane side to her? I wasn't put off by it in the least. And really, if that is the worst thing that happens during this campaign, it's hardly worthy of concern.

I don't agree with you about the Muskie thing either. Hillary's misting up was over in a few seconds. Muskie went on with his tirade for some time, breaking down more than once. Hillary actually only "teared up" once for a few seconds. She went on in what was perhaps an uncharacteristically softer tone for a couple of minutes, but the "mist" was quite fleeting. Believe me, as a former actor, I know that crying on demand, and at just the right moment is not easy, especially impromptu and on the fly.

It's also interesting to note that the woman who asked Hillary the question, that set the whole thing off, claimed she ultimately voted for Obama. Apparently, Hillary's tears didn't work on her.

Perhaps "like" was the wrong word in this instance. I guess you're correct. You don't seem to "like" much of anybody on either side of the coin. Who would you like? Both the Shah and Pinochet are dead.

B-tone

This s great stuff. The polls got it wrong, the pundits are stumped.

It makes a load of sense to me. Everyone has themselves faked out.

the tears were probably real. they were just crocodile tears, not some blubbering, snot dripping episode. she held it in enuf where she was strong yet compassionate.

Good job Hillary!

DM

Hillary is so calculating", SO F-ING WHAT!! That is how you play any game of success."


Umm......NO........


In your first post you said

"I love everyone getting their panties in an uproar over 'real' tears. It doesn't matter."

And in your second post you said

Hillary is so calculating", SO F-ING WHAT!! That is how you play any game of success."

So which is it....either you believe her tears were real or you believe they were a calculated stunt aimed at advancing her campign.

Which one?

I don't really care what Hillary has to do to win the primary so long as she wins. She's so strongly hated by independents that she would guarantee a republican victory whoever they nominate.

Tears? It doesn't matter. They probably were for real. Why bother even questioning it?

I mean, if it was calculated, it was really risky. It could have easily worked against her. Way too chancey to calculate as a 'move' to advance. That is why it advanced her (according to the media looking for something to explain). It was for real.

Any profiler could have read her body language and such and figured it was real. I would like to see opinions from a profiler.

But, as I say, everyone running for President is running for a position of power. If such a concept is going to be thrown at Hillary in a negative context, you have to paste that label on eveyone else running. It ain't just Hillary.

Were the tears calculated or genuine?

Obviously, both.

Clinton believes that she deserves the presidency. She's done her time in the think tank circuit, endured a great deal of personal grief for the sake of her party, and even proved that she's electable. It breaks her heart that the will of the people can interfere with her place in history. Her tears came from self-pity.

That doesn't change the fact that she showed emotion on purpose. Clinton has tried to be everything to everyone. She's pro- and anti-war. She's corporate and populist. She's feminine and tough. She'd tried the emotional ploy many times before, and it always looked awkward. She finally did it right once.

I love it! this is the most unpredictable election in a long time!

The best part about it is the armchair pundits cannot get a grip on it, so they are the ones throwing mud.

the joke is on those trying to read way too much into the picture...

Baronius,

And you know this how? Were you a fly on the wall in her hotel room? Did you intercept an email? Did you tap her phone?

Everybody's dancing on Hillary's grave while her candidacy is still very much alive. I don't think it was self-pity at all. I think she was very tired and, impossible as it may seem to her detractors, actually had an unguarded emotional moment. Big woop! How much wasted time, how many wasted words, including mine here have been devoted to this moment? My guess is that had she lost in NH, little would have been made of it.

I'm truly pleased she won because, had she lost, the democratic race would likely now be effectively over unless Edwards could in consequence gain ground on Obama. I don't particularly like the notion that two small states could by themselves determine who the dem nominee is to be.

Cynicism is part and parcel to any political campaign, but I don't think it serves any useful purpose. The need people feel to demonize the opposition moves the focus away from issues and onto personalities in a way that obfuscates what really is important to us as voters and as citizens.

B-tone

Dave

You are simply a child, a social retard. Some people just don't know how to read situations. They just go around guessing, fitting everything into what they suppose it's got to be.

Everyone has their area of genius. Obviously being perceptive is not yours.

You read this one wrong Bud.

OMG I just realized something, you really aren't disingenuous. You mean most of the garbage that you spew. Your just awkwardly off.

Wow, she must really think that people should lay off Tony Romo.

Wait... wrong section.

It's time for a black presedent. I hope Obama will make it all the way.

P.s. There are big news else ware in the world i.e. Oldest parliament in the world burned down

Any source for that stunning piece of news other than your own fevered blog?

Obama is still a guy, black or white. I say go for a female, like some other great countries of this planet.

Shirley Chisholm back in '72 gave it a good run to shut both sides of this debate up....

The Althingi burning down seems to have been overlooked at Iceland Review, but there does seem to be a lot of civil unrest there, plus Bjork punched a papparazi. Reading Icelandic newspapers is rather like reading small town papers here in the US. It's amazing what they think is newsworthy.

Dave

I don't know what you would regard as civil unrest, Dave. The most heinous incident I could find involved an assault on four police officers in Reykjavik this weekend by a group of drunken youths who were apparently so stricken with remorse by the whole thing that they practically demanded to be locked up.

This story from today's Visir suggests the Althingi is still standing. The Thingmen wouldn't be holding budget meetings there if it wasn't, at least that's what my knowledge of Old Norse from grad school tells me.

Dave

Although bearing in mind Viking history, the conducting of everyday business in smoking ruins may not be regarded as worth remarking on.

Didn't the blood feud in my eponymous ancestor Njal's Saga begin with the burning of an Icelandic viking hall?

Dave

OK, Hillary did it again!!! This is great stuff. The gal IS the real deal. No need to question anything about tears.

Did you see the latest Hillary as your flight hostess talking to passengers? was that HOT, or what? I'm sure it came rght off the top of her head. She was having fun. And cheerleading her campaign, and voicing issues. No joke business, actually. But she communicated well to the people. Ronald Reagan has nothing on her as 'the communicator' to the people...no con job here.

If that isn't cool, there is no cool....

Go Hillary!!!!

best,
DM