Great article! Finally someone who sees it as it really is!!

Unbelievable! Al, are you on the Romney payroll? Seriously. Either that or you are living in a reverse universe!

Colin - No, I'm not on the Romney payroll. I'm probably not going to vote for him. But please elucidate as to how I'm living in a "reverse universe."

this flip flopping flake will say anything to get voted in. go to www.massresistance.org
to get the real scoop on romney. he knows that he has gone to far to the right to ever be respected by the far left that was his base during his term as governer in mass state. he is even more liberal and corrupt than hillary. they are both flip flopping flakes together. the only clear conservative here is huckabee. he has been consistant with his stance and not a flip flopping fluke like mitt. i would never vote for him, not becuase he is a morman but b/c he is a flip flop that can not be trusted. the fact that he continues to attack huckabee, will only drive me closer to him. instead of him trying to say why huckabee should not be winning, he should stop trying to compare himself to him and start telling people why anyone should vote to him. the fact of the matter is that he is going to lose. and in new hampshire, he is going to loose to mccain. then he can finally go home and let the illegal aliens keep working on his home...

Al,
You nailed it! And I'm no Romney fan, either.

I just told my wife last night that something is wrong about Huckabee and you hit the nail right on the head. His pandering to the evangelical right, while acting innocent about his mormon history and knowledge gives it away. Romney is a politician, but his approach to the faith and testimony of others demonstrates the tolerance I expect from a potential President of the United States.

Sha- You're displaying exactly the kind of hatefulness and bigoted lack of concern for facts that I'm accusing your guy Huckabee of. That kind of hatefulness does not turn anybody on, nor does the foolish dishonesty of saying that Romney is somehow to the left of Hillary. That's just silly.

I know that Romney is the candidate on the trail getting most frequently and vehemently accused of "flip flopping," but he seems to be if anything less inconsistent than many of the other candidates - most especially your guy Huckabee on immigration and taxes.

That a Huckabee supporter would call Romney a flake is dumbfounding. Huckabee's the half-assed candidate with no staff or organization, running a national campaign out of his back pocket and just making up any kind of silly thing to say that sounds advantageous at the moment. Flakiest of all, Huckabee's the one who wasn't keeping up with the news even to the bare minimal extent of knowing that there was a big NIE report on Iran a few days ago. This guy would be our next commander in chief?

Lee- thanks for your kind words.

Well if Romney is a flip flopper, good for him, why can't politicians change their minds or their positions on things. Doesn't everyone, I mean I have changed my mind from Huckabee to someone else. I was truly interested in him and an avid supporter but his underhanded way of using religious overtones to say he is greater than thou and the "true" christian, that scares me, what happens when he talks to the muslim nations, "you guys aint christian enough for my country". This guy just scares me now. And this article is right on. Thanks for right up.

Good article.

I confess I had not been paying much attention to Huckabee; I can't give credence to anyone who professes to believe in ID, so had dismissed him.

The sneakiness and underhandedness you describe are particularly off-putting.

Not what I would like to see in a President.

I have been a Romney supporter for some time but have lately been a little concerned with some of the decisions he has made running his campaign...that said. You nailed Huckabee right on the head. Anyone, that is naive enough to think that his comment to the New York times was anything but pure tactics is in true denial. I spent too much time in Kentucky around Baptist minister's college to believe his question wasn't malicious. And if he truly did think it was a private conversation with a reporter...then you should be even more worried about his ability to be President. He is sneaky and Baptists should distance themselves from his embarrassing representation of their religion.

Al;
You are a sick man.

What a load of crap this article and most of the comments are. ok, so you have an anti Jesus bent, and anybody that dares to stick his head up and say he's a Christian, you want to bash him back into the ground (and make yourself sound all righteous for having done so), ok fine. But at least be honest about your motives and quit trying to wrap yourself in some sort of journalistic righteousness. You didn't like Huckabee's comment about "dont Mormons consider Jesus and the devil brothers"? Well, if your concerned about that, maybe you should actually do some journalistic research and find out what the Mormons do believe. Did Huck waffle on the issue, well, honestly I think he did a little. He should have said "Yes, Mormonism is considered by all of orthodox Christianity to be a cult" "So there". Why didn't he? don't know! Should he be the judge of whether a person truly is saved? Nope! No one can judge the heart except God. Should he be able to compare Mormonism with Christianity and say "It is not a Christian Religion"? Yes! Now is it possible to be a Mormon and be a real Christian? Sure it is. The bible is very clear about the requirements (if you don't know what they are maybe you should actually try reading it and see what it says), however Mormon teaching on it own will not make you a Christian is in fact inconsistent with Christianity. Google "cults" and look at the ones on Mormonism. (here's' the first one I came upon, it will do http://biblia.com/christianity2/3b-mormons.htm ). They have documented the differences far more thoroughly that I can.

All I can say is "By their Fruits you shall know them" I can see what Huckabee's fruits are and Romney's are. If I pick between these two I will pick Romney. I feel I can trust him, he has a life long record of being the kind of person I would trust. People need to get their heads on straight and stop being so blind by rhetoric and bigotry.

Wow Al!

I think you hit the nail on the head. To suggest that he was innocently asking the New York Times reporter about the Satan/Jesus Mormon question is absolutely ludicrous. It was downright sleazy of the Huckster to do that.

People will see Huck in short order. And we'll have another case study in "Howard Dean pyrotechnics" -- how to rocket up and come crashing down.

The man who wrote the article did a good job obfuscating the issue - he used a veil of faux concern, and "journalistic righteousness" to give the appearance of not only being impartial, but also tried to appear as if he knew something about Christianity. He clearly does not if he can confuse a cult for being in the Christian Spectrum. Musilms are as close to being christian as the mormons are. Both error in the exact same way regarding Christ. Granted Islam goes wrong in many other ways, and to my knowledge no mormon would ever want to blow up someone who disagrees with their philosophy/cult. Many of them are very devout, they take their faith seriously - more so than many christians these days. Never the less that is not what gets you into heaven these days.

Should Huckabee be crucified over what he claims is a sincere question? Should Romney be excoriated for being mormon? The answer to both is a resounding No. That said i will stay home on election day if Romney is the republican representative. He may be better than hillary, but he is not someone i would be able to in good conscience vote for.

Al,
Only Jesus is perfect. All Christians make mistakes and none of us are perfect- just forgiven. I am still undecided on which presidential candidate to choose. All of them are human & all of them have made mistakes. We as Christians should keep in mind that we are children of God; and in reality are salvation comes from Christ- not theology or the church. Your status as an nonbeliever is certainly your choice, but you like all of us will stand before Jesus one day. The King is coming and the "GOOD NEWS" is that it is not to late for AL to find peace with the Lord. Read Isaiah 55:6!!! This scripture is for you.
God Bless,
Don

I don't care about either Huckabee's or Romney's religious bona fides. I am voting for president, not Pastor-in-Chief. Those who find this meaningful, or require it as a litmus test, are not as far removed from the Taliban as they would like to believe. The entire notion of who might be the best Christian is stunningly irrelevant.

What part of "no religious test" don't some voters not understand?

Similarly, that there is no hint of impropriety in Romney's background does not speak much to his qualifications to be president.

Lastly, it is not that Romney has flip-flopped on issues. It is that he cravenly panders to whatever he thinks his constituents believe in order to cast himself as a favorable candidate. I guess this works for some people, but it for me it emphasizes the degree to which he is an empty suit, a plastic doll into which deluded voters apply their own desires.

Huckabee is not much better, but I guess is somewhat worse only to the degree to which he more deliberately tries to twist his religion into part of his identity as a political candidate.

I love this article. The more people who attack Gov. Huckabee the higher he rises. The Word of God says that the last will be first and the first will be last. If you truly look at the history of Gov. Huckabee you will wander how in the world did he get where he is at. It defies any kind of logic.
I am from Arkansas and 6 months ago I was not going to support Gov. Huckabee and same can be said about all of my friends but something happenend, Gov. Huckabee did not attack people and took the same high road that a past Gov. did, one Ronald Reagan. Now that Gov. Romney is pulling out all the stops and attacking Gov. Huckabee many people will see that doing this hurts not helps.
AS a life-long conservative I felt like in the primaries I was going to have to vote for the lesser of 2 evils Guilliani or Romney but now I have someone who sticks to the truth. The bible says that as Christians that if we stand up for Christ we will be attacked and that is definately what has happenend to Gov. Huckabee and if he loses at least he didnt flop around on any of his beliefs or decisions and everyone will remember him as a man of Truth and Integrity.
I will not vote for a Democrat or a Liberal Republican Guiliani/Romney (even though I like Guiliani for sticking with his beliefs and not flopping, he is still to liberal).
Bottom line is if either of these two men get nominated that a majority of Christians--(The Holy Bible Christ Followers; as told about in the KJV, NKJV, NASB, NIV)-- The Democrat machine will tear Gov. Romney up over his everchanging positions when he tries to do it to one of theirs.
I have lost all the respect that I have had for Gov. Romney over the last couple of weeks and am disappointed that he has made it his personal strategy to attack other people instead of stick to the issues. All this being said Gov. Huckabee better keep to his game plan and continue to stick to the issues. Even if he is wrong do not flop just admit it and go on.

Dear phhhtttt!!!! - No, I'm not anti-Christian nor did I bash Christianity. Your ideological sensitivities are apparently wreaking havoc on your reading comprehension. I was bashing on Huckabee not for being a Christian, but exactly for not being near enough of one.

I know my KJV Bible pretty well, but don't claim to know a lot about Mormon or Muslim theology. However differently they might take it in some regards though, Mormons do confess the name of Christ. In my best judgment, that would make them Christians, as also are Catholics - whom many evangelical types also wish to deny the label of Christian.

But I can understand being skeptical of the Mormon faith. I'm pretty skeptical of all ghost stories myself. However, it's not theological skepticism of Mormonism that turns me off on Huckabee, but the underhanded and malicious use of those feelings in a political campaign against an opponent. Again, I most particularly object to the under handededness and dishonesty of how Huckabee goes about it, like that "innocent" little comment to the NYT reporter.

As Brother Bill reminds us above, "By their Fruits you shall know them" I'm fuzzy on some of the specific theological issues involved with Romney, but it's plain as day to me that Huckabee is not behaving in a Christ-like manner in this campaign. The guy I read about in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John would not countenance the hatefulness and malicious backbiting for personal gain that Huckabee has shown. Whereas Romney's always been a pretty straight shooter, and he fight exceptionally clean.

Rather Aggravated - My concern is not faux. I would really hate to see the Republicans commit Huckacide, and doom us to President Hillary. I also really un-appreciate religious demagogues of any stripe. Rev Huckabee's is about as qualified and trustworthy to be president as Rev Jackson or Rev Robertson. He's wicked and truly divisive in his quest for personal power.

Glen Beck said Friday that Huckabee would fall back down. Nice article and I definitely agree with your post.

As of 3pm EST 12-17 -- If you go to Alexa and check out the TR (traffic rating) for the official Ron Paul website --- he has a TR of 7,478.
Mike Huckabee has a TR of 52,977
John McCain -- TR 112,541
Hillary Clinton -- TR 33,338
TR 68,443 for Mitt Romney

According to Huckabee's website he has collected $1,229,712 to date for his forth quarter donations.

At this moment Dr. Paul has $18,247,850 and still coming in.

There is no mention on McCain's site of how much money he currently has raised.


I have stopped listening to the MSM --- they are the old media and are missing the point.

Al, it looks like you do have a dog in this fight, or at least one you're rooting against. I mean, you're complaining that a former minister lists it on his resume?

I read his and his wife's comments about loaves and fishes. It seemed like an analogy, not a claim of divine power. What I've seen about his religious statements seem fine (although I'm no expert on Huckabee). He made the comment about Jesus and Satan when a reporter asked him if he thought Mormonism was a religion or a cult. It was an answer to a question, not an off-the-record insinuation.

You say that Romney is a better Christian than Huckabee. Maybe you can argue that Romney better follows "the most basic core Christian teaching of loving thy neighbor". You could also argue that Romney fails the most basic Christian teaching that Jesus is God. Are you the best person to define what is essential to Christian teaching?

I don't know which of these two I would support for President. I'm in a late state, so it really doesn't matter.

Sorry, you are wrong. I went to high school with Mike and he is sincere and honest, what we call a stand-up guy. Are you reading the far left blog? I can see the mud and spin headed his way.. You must be getting scared.

Dear Tsion- What kind of alternate reality world are you living in? Romney has not been attacking Huckabee or anyone else in any kind of personal way, especially about articles of faith. You're just imagining that. Plus, your Governor Huckabee absolutely and undeniably has been doing everything he can in every kind of sleazy backhanded way to stick the Mormon church up into Romney and break it off.

And where do any of you Huckabee people get off on accusing Romney of flip-flopping? He's changed his mind on abortion - and says so directly and with an explanation. That's as much as you could ask for. Other than that, Romney really hasn't had much in the way of major changes in issues, but mostly seemingly in language and spin, maybe nudging a bit more restrictionist on immigration - but not nearly as much as Huckabee. I watched Tim Russert do his worst to him for an hour, and Romney had pretty reasonable sounding explanations for most of the supposed inconsistencies. He's certainly no worse there than Huckabee, who raised taxes and called his critics at the Club for Growth the "Club for Greed" - and then calls for eliminating income taxes as a candidate for president. Like that other Arkansas traveler from Hope, this guy will say pretty much anything to get a vote.

But what I most love is your cheesy martyr complex for Huckabee. "The more people who attack Gov. Huckabee the higher he rises. The Word of God says that the last will be first and the first will be last." Oh yeah, Slick Huck's suffering the horrible martyrdom of being "attacked" ie criticized in print for his ill behavior as a candidate for public office.

See, critics point out that Huckabee's a sleazy huckster, and the knuckle-draggers that he primarily appeals to start carrying on like he's a martyr for Christ. That's just exactly the kind of self-serving bullshit that makes folks cynical about religious people being involved in politics.

Alec - Please don't get me wrong. As a non-believer, I certainly don't demand a religious test for office. However, I would appreciate a candidate who bears some of the personality traits of that groovy mortal guy Jesus of Nazareth. I would at least appreciate if a candidate for office was not a sleazy religious demagogue.

But if I WERE looking for a Bible modeled candidate, I'd be thinking more Old Testament vengeful God, ie Yahweh rather than Jesus. That line of thinking would naturally tend to incline one to Giuliani.

Beyond that though, I did not mean this article as an exhaustive comparison of the two candidates, just an examination of this one underlying religious dynamic which seems to be pretty critical in this horserace. Other than Christian charity, I didn't get into discussions of the issues. That's another point.

And ultimately to me, the point with these religious issues isn't religious faith or doctrine. I don't believe in either or any faith, so I don't necessarily care. But I do care about the kind of basic personal honesty and integrity that religion is supposed to instill. Not to say that Romney's perfect - for all have sinned and fell short of the glory of God - but he sure seems like he does a better job of following the basic Ten Commandments and Golden Rule morality than the preacher does.

Al-

I find it interesting that Huckabee can't ask "Don't Mormons believe that Christ and the devil are brothers?" But its fair for you to ask Huckabee "Do you believe in evolution?"

They are the exact same question and that question is "How crazy is your religion?"

Also, saying that you're a non-believer does not make you objective. It makes it clear that your only objective is to attack the candidate who isn't afraid to profess to be a christian unabashedly.

And you do so by making broad statements with no attempt to back them up with a single citation

1. "He's repeatedly compared himself and his campaign to that guy that fed multitudes with just a couple of loaves and fishes." Really? Please tell us, Al, when he ever said he was Jesus Christ.

2. "lack of character or principles that characterize both Clinton and Huckabee" I would define character and principle as holding true to your beliefs and moral convictions regardless of the situation. Which is exactly what you attack Huckabee for.

3. "He bills himself in early tv ads as a "Christian leader," in implicit contrast to the front runner who is not." So which is it Al, is Romney Christian or isn't he? You've spent most of your article proclaiming how Christian he is and how Christian he attests to being. So how is this ad in contrtast to any other candidate? You don't care that he's "demogogueing" anyone. You're real issue is just the fact that a Christian has the balls to say it out loud. Period

4. "Nor will he directly deny that members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints are Christians, as it's just not his proper role as a candidate to take a position on such an issue.In other words, the PC folk won't let me say it, but you know - wink, wink, nudge, nudge, say no more True Brother Christians." So which is it Al? Is Huckabee a jerk for proclaiming his faith? or he is he a jerk for toning it down? News flash Al, every religion thinks other religions are wrong. Just like aethiests like you think religion-period is wrong. If you ask Mormon leaders if they think Baptists practice the right form of Christianity they would say "No", too.

5. "Unmistakably, Mike Huckabee has consciously said things to appeal to the most base angels of his constituents' nature to turn them in hatred even against a brother who also proclaims Jesus Christ as his savior" Like what Al? Please cite one source where Huckabee does anymore to Romney, than you're doing to him and christians in general with your little "evolution" line?

6. "I would find it highly unlikely that he would foment hatred against another man for personal gain, much less fomenting hatred against whole groups as Huckabee does." Again, cite something Al. Try being a journalist instead of an ignorant blogger.

I also love how you accuse other people of inciting hatefulness when you write unsubstantiated drivel to mislead your readers and have the gaul to call someone a "nasty hick".

Anyone reading this I urge you to actually investigate the nonsense this guy is spouting. Google search transcripts of Mike Huckabee interviews/speeches/debates, look up clips on youtube. Don't just buy into a hack blogger with an axe to grind.

Baronious, I don't have a horse in the race as between Mormons vs Baptists. I am definitely rooting against Huckabee at this point, though. I thought he was amusing in his completely seat of the pants joke kind of way for a minute, but this hateful underhanded crap has completely turned me off to him personally. But again, I don't necessarily hold that against all Baptists.

hermano Al - what's the problem with a slick underhanded nasty hick preacher...might be just what's needed to negotiate with mullahs

I used to think he didn't have a chance. With all the attacks from the left however, I think we may just see a Huckabee in the White House.

By the way, anyone see the full context of what Huckabee said to the Times reporter?

Al,

I read your Chuck the Huck post and the pro/con tag alongs with interest. My two request are that you rethink your personal non-believer position and second, help promote the seperation of religious beliefs from state and government politics.

Ed Barger

Great article, Al.

I liked Huckabee until I heard about the not-so-subtle smear attack he made against Romney (and all Mormons) in that NYT interview. I've pretty much given up on Rudy (too liberal, too much personal baggage), and I don't think I'll ever be able to forgive McCain for some of the positions he taken over the years on issues that are very important to me (campaign finance "reform," illegal immigration, etc.). Tancredo simply isn't presidential, and Duncan Hunter is polling at about 1%.

So I guess I'm left with Mitt, Thompson (who is currently far behind and losing ground in the polls), and Ron Paul (who has roughly zero chance of actually winning the nomination). :-/

BTW, the comment spam from Huckabee supporters is MUCH more obnoxious than anything I've seen from Ron Paul supporters...

Blah blah blah.....

Mitt Romney WILL be the next president.

If you're a whiney little commie Obama Osama or Billary supporter...too fucking bad..

Deal with it losers!

Ed [comment #28] - Please don't get me wrong - I'm not particularly looking for a religious candidate, as I'm not religious myself. But again, I would appreciate a candidate who shows some of the positive behaviors and character traits that it is the best purpose of religion to inculcate, ie honesty and brotherly love.

And if someone's a preacher running for public office, I'll damn well expect them to be well above board on such things. Huckabee is not, and reminds me only too much of Bill Clinton.

As to re-thinking my status as a non-believer, I'm not going to try to talk myself into believing in some foolishness. However, I do not claim to know the answers to the mystery of life, and remain open to a message from God if he has something to say to me. Being a somewhat slow-witted Kentuckian though, it would probably take a burning bush or a blinding light on the road to Damascus for me to get the point.

John [comment #24] - As Huckabee supporters go, you are so far clearly the most literate. You actually address me in a civil manner, and manage to write decent coherent English. Thank you for the effort.

However, your arguments aren't really impressive. Your argument 5 in particular seems odd. What did Huckabee do? The Jesus and Satan business, and the "Christian leader" most specifically are what he's done that's so un-Christian. I explained those in detail and provided links to news stories. And I haven't said anything against Christianity or Jesus Christ - only schmucks doing un-Christ like things while claiming his name.

Also, in your point 6, you want me to cite something. Well, did you follow the links in those words? It would tell you exactly what I had in mind there, which would be his anti-gay remarks and wanting to lock up AIDS patients. Here's the relevant text from my original story: fomenting hatred against whole groups as Huckabee does.

You need to start at the Kindergarten level of Christianity and learn what it is really all about....as it is a fact....you do not KNOW! Also, while you are at it study the Mormon RELIGION AND ASK WHY THEY WEAR SPECIAL UNDERWEAR EVEN WHILE GIVING BIRTH! Also, inquire about what happens to people from the top rung of Mormonism when they depart from that group and devulge info about what actually happens in the upper 20%, that is, if they are still alive to tell it.

You need to start at the Kindergarten level of Christianity and learn what it is really all about....as it is a fact....you do not KNOW! Also, while you are at it study the Mormon RELIGION AND ASK WHY THEY WEAR SPECIAL UNDERWEAR EVEN WHILE GIVING BIRTH! Also, inquire about what happens to people from the top rung of Mormonism when they depart from that group and devulge info about what actually happens in the upper 20%, that is, if they are still alive to tell it.

Mr. Mitt Romney is truly a Christian person, he treats his wife the way all women should be treated - with love, admiration and respect. He has a great family, all 5 sons with love and respect with one another. I did not know that Mr. Romney is a Mormon until the media said so. So I can see that Mormons have great family. I like that for a President. As well as intelligence, nobody can doubt that with Mr. Romney and other great things that a Commander-In-Chief should have. GO MR. ROMNEY GO!!! Straight to the White House!!!!

Al, you asked me to elucidate as to how you're living in a "reverse universe."

I could write pages! Let's look at the facts. In a lengthy interview Mike Huckabee made ONE comment about Mormonism which is actually true. Even if there was something deliberate about this question, he personally apologized to Romney.

Conversely, Romney has created very misleading direct mail and television ads about each of his opponents, most of all Mike Huckabee. He attacks Huckabee DAILY in the press, taking Huckabee's comments out of context and running a completely negative campaign. Romney has shown himself to be deceitful, lying about endorsements he has not received. He has flip flopped on abortion, gay rights, immigration, gun control, stem cell research, etc. He seems to hold no true convictions, adopting whatever stance on an issue he thinks will get him elected. When running against Ted Kennedy in 94 he said he was NOT a Reagan-Bush Repulican and now that he is running for the Republican nomination, all of a sudden, he decides he is indeed a Reagan Republican. He is the most dishonest politician I've ever seen.

Governor Huckabee, on the other hand, has run a very positive campaign. He refuses to run negative ads even in response to Romney's attacks. He prefers instead to spend his time telling the American people how he will lift this country up. He stands up for what he believes in, even when it is unpopular.

I would sum up these two candidates with the following ...
Mike Huckabee: "This is what I stand for, I hope you agree and vote for me"
Mitt Romney: "Tell me what you want me to stand for so I can win your vote".

Ultimately, the key to Huckabee's massive surge in the polls, despite limited funds and organizational support, is his supporters sense in Mike a true, authentic yet imperfect Christian, and someone who reflects and has consistantly stood for their values. He appeals to so many Americans who are tired of Washington elites, Wall Street, and the media who all think they can elect our President.

RE: However, I would appreciate a candidate who bears some of the personality traits of that groovy mortal guy Jesus of Nazareth.

I note your preference for a hippie-dude "Jesus Christ Superstar" kind of candidate, but this makes just as much sense as wanting a presidential candidate who resembles Santa Claus. Nobody knows what the historical Jesus was "really like." And since Jesus never ran for or was elected to public office, I have no idea why an imitation of Christ is supposed to be meaningful with respect to the attributes of a presidential candidate.

RE: I would at least appreciate if a candidate for office was not a sleazy religious demagogue.

How about a candidate who is neither sleazy, nor religious, nor a demagogue?

RE: But if I WERE looking for a Bible modeled candidate, I'd be thinking more Old Testament vengeful God, ie Yahweh rather than Jesus. That line of thinking would naturally tend to incline one to Giuliani.

Uh, no. The idea of a vengeful deity is based on a false dichotomy between the supposed Old and New Testaments. But even more false is the idea of looking to any religious text for hints of a presidential candidate.


RE: And ultimately to me, the point with these religious issues isn't religious faith or doctrine. I don't believe in either or any faith, so I don't necessarily care. But I do care about the kind of basic personal honesty and integrity that religion is supposed to instill.

Religion is supposed to instill integrity? According to what reading of which religion?

RE: Not to say that Romney's perfect - for all have sinned and fell short of the glory of God - but he sure seems like he does a better job of following the basic Ten Commandments and Golden Rule morality than the preacher does.

This neatly sidesteps the question of qualification or even competence. That either Romney or Huckabee exactly follows the Ten Commandments might be useful information in looking for a Sunday School teacher, but it is low on any rational discussion of what it takes to be president of the United States.


RE: Mitt Romney WILL be the next president. If you're a whiney little commie Obama Osama or Billary supporter...too fucking bad.. Deal with it losers!

Spoken like a true fucking Christian. Of course, the loser, if any Republican wins this next presidential election, will be the American people.

I must say that I am amazed at how uninformed some people are. This discussion should not be taking a turn into whether or not Mormons are Christians. Nor should it be a question of Gov. Romney or Gov. Huckabee being a "better christian". This is a job for the person that can lead all faiths/beliefs for the 4 years they are in office. This job is about LEADERSHIP, HONESTY, TRUST, and doing what is best for ALL of us.
*Zannty-You are one funny duck. Where do you get that garbage about us Mormons. I happen to be one of those who wears "SPECIAL UNDERWEAR" and I can tell you have either been reading too much in the conspiracy theory realm or you have been smokin too much weed and it's rotted your brain. Either way, you have written some funny stuff.

Colin - Thanks for taking the time for that response, but it's very broad and general and thus not very meaningful.

Huckabee has not been running a positive campaign, in that his most notable tactic has been screwing with Romney over being Mormon. That's not positive, nor very Christian. That kind of sleazy underhanded religious divisiveness that Huckabee's been peddling appeals to the worst angels of the religious right's nature, not the more truly Christ-like.

Romney has not been making false and bigoted claims against Huckabee, or played very rough really at all. What specific Romney ads would you point to as dishonest?

This article, again, was not about all the policy issues of the campaign, but just the religious angle. Still, I say again that Huckabee has been far worse a flip-flopper than Romney, if that is your angle. Huckabee was basically all pro-immigration as a governor, and now taking a fairly radical stand against it. Romney seems to have been only maybe marginally tougher there than Huckabee, but then he's not moved so far the other way rhetorically either.

Then there's Huckabee on taxes. He raised a lot of taxes as governor. He's clearly the most tax hungry Republican on the stage - but now he's all for absolutely eliminating the income tax, all right suddenly. That's not kind of shifting your position a little bit for competitive positioning, but just absolutely doing a 180 from anything about how he ever governed or would ever try to actually govern.

Now, Romney changed his mind on abortion - but it's important that he's openly saying that he has done so (and making a plausible explanation why). He's not pretending that he always thought that way. And at that, it seems that in the practice, he behaved in a pro-life way on pretty near all the related issues that came before him as governor.

Other than that, most of the supposed flip-flopping is just in language and tone - and I'll give any politician some room to work on those counts. When he said he was not a Reagan Republican, that was just that the Reagan mantle wouldn't be helpful to him in Massachusetts. But how did that reflect any substantive difference in public policy?

I watched Tim Russert rake him over the coals, and Mitt actually came out pretty clean. I don't see where he's changed his position substantially on gun control. He was never any big advocate of it, and he's not a suddenly converted 2nd Amendment absolutist now. He's joined the NRA, but says directly that he doesn't necessarily agree with them on everything.

The worst problem with Romney is that he comes across too much as a super salesman. You know he's sharp and prepared, and could probably sell ice to the proverbial Eskimo. Therefore, you might understandably be a little suspicious.

But Huckabee's a salesman, too. Indeed, he may be a better salesman because he's so much better at his aw, shucks act and pretending he's not a salesman at all. But Romney is selling an expensive car with features you may or may not like. Whereas the Arkansas traveler is flat selling snake oil, and obviously has no clue what the real issues are.

I mean, the guy took a couple of days to notice that NIE report on Iran. Whatever you make of that report, it's pretty near to disqualifying simply that Huckabee didn't know. He doesn't have a foreign policy adviser, nor any particular view, other than a really broad bromide that we should be nicer to foreign countries.

In short, Romney's a little slick perhaps, but he knows his business and has some real knowledge and skills to run a government - whether or not I'd agree with all his decisions. Huckabee, on the other hand, is an absolute fraud. Romney's maybe a bit slick and corporate in style, but Huckabee's positively devious.

phhhttt (#21):

You acuse Al of not "conducting journalistic research to find out what Mormon's actually believe" yet I seriously doubt that you know what Mormon's believe and if it is really different than what Christians believe.

First: Christians believe that God created everything, including Satan but that Satan is a fallen angel. This is exactly what Mormons believe.

A fundamental Christian beliefe is that Christ is the Only Begotten Son of the Father and the only true path to return to live with the Father is by the Atonement of Christ. Guess what? This is precisely the foundation of all Mormon doctrine.

Now to say that Mormons believe that Christ and Satan are spiritual brothers would be the same thing as saying that Catholics believe that Mother Theresa and Hitler are spiritual brothers or that protestants believe that Martin Luther and Ghengis Khan are spiritual brothers. Technically true, but irrelevant and misleading.

Baronius (#21):

"You could also argue that Mormons fail that most basic Christian Teaching that Jesus is God". How? That is the foundation and core of Mormon faith. Mormons believe that the only path to salvation is by Christ, all ordinances, and prayers in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are done in the name of Jesus Christ. Almost every lesson on Sunday revolves around the life, ministry, and mission of Jesus Christ.

John (#24)

You attacked Al by stating that is only goal is to "attack the candidate who isn't afraid to profess unabashedly to be a Christian".

I am sorry, but Huckabee is by far not the only Candidate who has professed unabashedly to being a Christian.

Hilarious--and very sad--that it's the 21st century and the Republican nomination for POTUS may hinge on the candidates' preferences in mythology!

Better to try and determine which candidate would make an honest and effective president in spite of his religious beliefs than because of them.

Or do you like the idea of a "Christian" government?

Hilarious--and very sad--that it's the 21st century and the Republican nomination for POTUS may hinge on the candidates' preferences in mythology!

Better to try and determine which candidate would make an honest and effective president in spite of his religious beliefs than because of them.

Or do you like the idea of a "Christian" government?

Utah PL - Again, I'm not a believer, and don't care about Mitt's underwear any more than I gave a rat's ass about Clinton's boxers or briefs. When I say that Romney's a better Christian, I mostly mean that in terms of just the kinds of character traits you list there: "LEADERSHIP, HONESTY, TRUST, and doing what is best for ALL of us." Specific policy proposals aside, I'd trust Romney 10 to 1 on any of those general character traits over the Huckster.


Alec - It would entirely cool with me if a candidate for POTUS was an atheist. But the point here is that Huckabee carries on about being a "Christian leader," but doesn't do a very good job at all at living up his billing.

As to hippie-Jesus, you perhaps misread me. I'm pretty much Eric Cartman made flesh, and I despise a damned dirty hippie as much as the next rightwing nutjob. My point was to try to distinguish the ideas and philosophy of Christ the character from any religious-type beliefs, ie the resurrection story.

great article ... as I study to whom i should vote for i ran across another romney fact thats been carefuly overlooked . he once shut down a corporation for days to help a frind and fellow business partner find a daughter who had overdosed on drugs , he put all the resourses of tghe company towards flyers and feet on the ground efforts , she was found minutes before slipping into a coma . do we want a president whos smart , has integrity , has deep beliefs who has never let his mate or family down , ive decided this week because he has what it takes .

"You could also argue that Mormons fail that most basic Christian Teaching that Jesus is God". How? That is the foundation and core of Mormon faith. Mormons believe that the only path to salvation is by Christ, all ordinances, and prayers in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are done in the name of Jesus Christ. Almost every lesson on Sunday revolves around the life, ministry, and mission of Jesus Christ.

I can vouch for this. I went to a Mormon church once as a young child (long story), and Jesus Christ was absolutely front-and-center in their biblical teachings.

It is my opinion that a lot of these Protestant preachers/reverends tell their congregations that Mormonism is a "cult" because they fear losing parishioners to them. After all, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has been growing in membership quite rapidly, and therefore other denominations view them as a threat. So they use disinformation about this religion in order to prevent their flock from leaving.

It's disgusting, really.

RJ- Thanks for that independent testimony. That does confirm the general point of assumption that I'd make based on them calling themselves The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Mitt Romney made your point with Russert, who was reading anti-Mormon quotes from Bob Jones III - and has endorsed Romney for president. Romney smiled gently and suggested briefly just that point about competition for adherents.

Good article if you don't believe in God. Its very biased. You like Romney because you think he has a better chance of winning because he has alot of campaign money(Goliath). Its amazing when Huckabee was not winning how people like you were not criticizing him. Now that he is beating others with less campaign money(David) he supposedly is the least Christian of them all. How can you know that future U.S. President Mike Huckabee is using manipulation of his true faith as a weapon when you, yourself admitt you do not know what true faith is. Its ok to use the parables of the Bible if your influencing people to understand a point like David vs. Goliath. I believe manipulation is when one party benefits only. And influence is when two or more party benefits. So far of what I know about future U.S. President Huckabee, is when he wins the Presidency, alot of people will admit that this great country and they are benfitting from his leadership and the other people will benefit, too. They just won't give him the credit. Which by the way, Jesus doesn't care who is the least of them. He the Savior just cares to know if your one of them.

JESUS WILL RULE THE WORLD SOON AND I SAY EVEN SO LORD JESUS COME QUICKLY.

Sergio, you seem to have no effective answer to anything that I have said about Rev Huck, and thus are reduced to saying that my motivations are bad. Again, this kind of hateful psychological analysis of me is a distinctly un-Christian gesture - which type of negativity I've never heard from a Romney supporter, and rarely from any Mormon.

I'm less than impressed also with how you have to shoehorn in bogus Biblical analogies, so you can make it that I'm just wanting to support Goliath. Yet this is not based on anything whatsoever in my article. I never mentioned nor considered which candidate was more electable. My consideration was entirely based on which of those two candidates would be the better president, and particularly which would be better in regards to basic core Christian personal values.

And MANY people suffer when the Huckster carefully turns Baptist against Mormon, so that ONE political candidate can benefit.

Maybe it's just me, or a lack of sleep or something, but comments 51 and 52 nake no sense whatsoever. Their vitriol, neaningless as it is, does disturb me, however.

I said, with painful care, that you could argue that Mormonism doesn't see Jesus as God. My understanding is that Mormons aren't trinitarian - they see Jesus as distinct from God the Father. Most denominations of Christianity see the Trinity, the Incarnation, and the Redemption as essential beliefs. Most denominations wouldn't accept Mormonism as Christian, and most Christian preachers would give an answer similar to Huckabee's. I don't require a correct answer to that question from a presidential candidate.

If Huckabee and Romney were chicks, and there were tee shirts and mud involved, I don't think y'all could be any more all over this story. Enjoy the catfight while it's still news.

The question any Christian politician should ask himself before brandishing the LORD's name in a political campaign is WWRPD?

Here's what Ron Paul has to say: "I have never been one who is comfortable talking about my faith in the political arena. In fact, the pandering that typically occurs in the election season I find to be distasteful. But for those who have asked, I freely confess that Jesus Christ is my personal Savior, and that I seek His guidance in all that I do. I know, as you do, that our freedoms come not from man, but from God. My record of public service reflects my reverence for the Natural Rights with which we have been endowed by a loving Creator."


For those of you wanting voting advice from someone who speaks your spiritual language, I offer the following:

Jews for Ron Paul

Mormons for Ron Paul

Indians and Pakistanis for Ron Paul
(Someone wanting to hear the views of other Hindus or Buddhists may find what they're looking for here.)

"Some might accuse him of flip-flopping on some issues"

Only the ones that have seen the videotape footage of him holding different positions, depending on the office he's running for. Of course, it could be pure coincidence that he claimed liberal views when running for the Senate in Mass, and now has conservative views while running to be the Republican nominee for President.

"you'd be hard pressed to find the least hint of impropriety in anything Mitt Romney has ever done in life."

You mean other than being a member of a religion that discriminated against blacks until 1978? If you don't find a "hint of impropriety" in that way of thinking, then you really shouldn't be calling others "knuckle-draggers".

Brother Al,

All those years I was voting for folks in the States I was supposed to consider whether they were good Christians or not?

Man, do I feel bad. I never even thought about stuff like that! Wow! What an uninformed voter I was! Can I ever be forgiven my lapses in judgment?

You know, in Jerusalem, there is a bookstore called "The Torch" where they sell all sorts of Christian stuff. Do you think I could get a Christian "vibo-meter" that I could hold in front of the Youtubes I download that will turn green if an American candidate is a good Christian and turn red if he is a bad one?

Why would being highly religious, or the best Christian be a plus for ANY candidate?

We're not electing a high priest, we're electing someone to run our government.

Believing in magic, fairies, juju, moroni, yahweh or any other fantasy ought to disqualify you from the presidency or at least cause us to take you less seriously, not be an asset.

And that should apply to Ron Paul as much as to Huckabee and Romney.

Dave

All i have to say is in politics both teams are on the same side. No matter who wins we all lose!!

Did anyone happen to catch Lawrence O'Donnell's flip out on the Mormons on the McLaughlin Group a couple of weeks ago?

Brother Ruvy- No, I wouldn't necessarily expect you to look for whether the candidate was particularly a good Christian, but at whether they're a good person with good personal values. That might come out as being a good Christian, a pious Muslim, or an upstanding Jew such as yourself. Or, lest Brother Nalle be offended, it could be an atheist with strong independently acquired moral scruples.

But the leading candidate for the Republican nomination at the moment is not showing those things to me. Huckabee comes across as really the sleaziest guy in the Republican field - made considerably worse in my judgment by the bogus proclamations of propriety.

Al, that raises the issue of whether Christian 'values' as taught by certain sects in America are desirable at all. Values like hatred of minorities and homosexuals and non-Christians seem well beneath the level of morality we should be looking for as a nation.

Dave

Both candidates are extremely slick, and like all politicians, extremely calculating. But Huckabee, like Bush, plays the role of good ole boy quite skillfully. Romney, with his perfect smile and hairdo, looks over-polished, over-rehearsed, and this gives more traction to charges that he is almost completely insincere.

As a gay man, I'll never forgive Romney for his two-faced exploitation of gay issues before and after his election as governor. I will always think of him as a snake.

But if he really is a moderate beneath all his disgusting social-conservative posturing, as some of his supporters would have us believe, does that make him more palatable? To me, quite the opposite.

I think Al gives him way too much of a free pass by saying, yes, he flip-flops, but actually less than other politicians. Talk about rationalizing!

But the idea of a former Baptist preacher as President of the US gives me the shivers, too. I'm glad the Dems are ahead in the polls now...I just hope we don't muck things up the way we did in '88, '00 and '04.

Yes Dave, that's fair enough. Most Klansmen considered themselves to be good Christians. Even beyond obviously wicked permutations like that, even decent Christians have some twisted philosophical premises. As a student of Ayn Rand, I'm totally conscious of those things.

But then there are those good values that most religions are mostly trying to encourage in their flock. In that regard and depending on the person, I'm inclined to look highly favorably on Mormons. Some of their mythology looks really silly to me - though no more so than, for example, transubstantiation, but the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Doctrine aside, actual living modern Mormons have a pretty strong and well earned reputation for being honest, upstanding neighbors with strong family values.

They may not be the hippest hep cats in town, but I'd be happy to have the Osmond family representing for US. I'd certainly rather have the Osmonds than a wicked demagogue heir to William Jennings Bryan.

I am a liberal by definition.

Jesus is a liberal.

I am a Democrat.

I am a Christian.

I recognize Christian principles at work.

I will vote for Mike Huckabee.

Jesus is a liberal.

I would characterize him more as a political conservative...

"I come not to change one iota of the law..."

'Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, and unto God that which is God's..."

...but a social liberal:

"Suffer the little children to come unto me..."

"It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of Heaven..."

That kind of thing.

Better Christian? Hmmm Ok there is a new qualification for being President. It is kind of funny really that this would be turned into an issue at all. The far right has been preaching their own righteousness since the Regan years to anyone who would listen and have now pretty much become the public face of the republican party.

Now that they have achieved that victory by ridicule, spin and slander against every group they could possibly attack and are at the peak of their game they have run out of enemies to hold themselves up against as "lesser" people. So now, in order to satisfy their insatiable need to prove their own goodness, they are forced to turn on each other. It takes the term "holier than thou" to a whole new level...lol

I don't think Evangelicals are Christians. They not only label mormonism as a cult, but also Catholicism, Jehova's Witnesses, Scientology, and anyone else they don't agree with. Their actions in many other ways show that they are much more like the Pharisees than the followers of Jesus.

Mike Huckabee would do the same thing the same way if Mitt were running or not.

This is you looking for something that isn't really there. kinda dumb if you ask me.

People should start calling Evangelicals "The Christian Taliban." While they may not have earned the Christian part by what they do, they have certainly earned the "Taliban" part.

If a person attended law school for one year and then dropped out, but consistently told everyone that he had a law degree and therefore, he was qualified to speak on subjects related to the law, would you still have respect for that person?

Do you think that person just may get fired from his job for lying on his resume about his credentials?

Well, that is exactly what Huckabee is doing.

He has repeatedly bragged about his theology degree.

He doesn't have a theology degree (a Masters in Divinity).

He has a BA which is essential in order to qualify someone for earning a theological degree.

Only problem is that he dropped out of seminary after one year and started working for a televangelist.

This alone disqualifies him from the job of POTUS.

Right on Al!

Huckabee is nothing but a HYPOCRITE! It has gotten worst in the past weeks. The most recent proof is his Christmas ad. In the ad, he denounces political ads and political commercials around this Christmas time with - GUESS WHAT? - a POLITICAL COMMERCIAL of his own, masked as a Christmas greeting/wish. Who does not know that the ad is a political one, when the disclaimer states that: "I am Mike Huckabee and I approve this message" with his campaign website address on there? And then deceivingly used part of a glowing window pane as a CROSS in the background. Mockery at its best! How more hypocritical and underhanded can one get? Well, I will find comfort in knowing the ONE who doesn't like hypocrites!

Huckabee may be a hypocrite, but let's not forget that Romney is one of the biggest hypocrites on earth, having changed his position on every major issue over the last 4 years from positions which the author of this piece would find utterly unacceptable to ones which make him the perfect candidate for the religiously motivated and intellectually bankrupt 'values' voters.

Dave

#55, #59, #55: What happened??? Did Church Lady beat someone over the head with her handbag this morning?

FACT: People possessing the same level of intellect, the same capacity for ethical and even compassionate behavior and the same level of belief or lack of belief in the Supernatural will assign different priorities to:

*babies in foreign lands being wired to explosive devices in foreign conflicts exacerbated by manipulative and exploitative American intervention.

*full-term babies in America being decapitated by abortionists wishing to avoid murder charges.

*babies in foreign lands starving to death on baby forumula diluted with impure water because a big American baby food corporation convinced their impoverished moms to buy their expensive product rather than the cheaper and more wholesome alternative of breastfeeding.

*inequitable tax breaks for traditional households vs. nontraditional households.

I support Ron Paul because he's managed to assemble a group of colaborating backers who are all over the spectrum in terms of the priorities they assign to these matters. He wants careful reasoned debate on them, rather than having unelected PAC's and lobbyists steer federal representatives (who already have more legislation in front of them than they could ever possibly read) into decisions that don't reflect the will of the people.

Americans aren't going to find solutions we can be proud of by tossing tired slogans and increasingly barbarous insults across the great divide. I'm sick of hearing it from the faithful, and I'm sick of hearing it from atheists.

Outstanding article. Al, you're clearly a very bright guy.

I'm a Republican who thinks the Christian Coalition has been huge for the GOP and I want Evangelicals' voice to be heard in political discourse. For that reason I will not vote for Huckabee in the primaries or general. He will take the Evangelical vote away from issues to identity only and identity politics is not a platform that can be sustained among rational people.

Huckabee's fear of the issues has caused him to produce adds that avoid them and only highlites his "Christian" status. This fear has also caused him to decline a spot on "Meet the Press," where he would get eaten alive and he knows it.

The main difference between the approaches used by Huck/Mitt is that Mitt, in his own name and with full personal responsibility openly questions Huckabee's record. Huckabee, on the other hand, uses whispers, "innocent questions," push polls, etc. to sway public opinion of the "knuckle draggers" Al referred to. Then, Huckabee claims Mitt is the negative candidate. Amazing.

Amendment to Last Line minus three: Exceptions are issues that are Constitutionally within the purview of the federal government.

Dave:

Maybe you need to look up the definition and meaning of the word "hypocrite" before you spill your misinterpretations and ambiguity. Romney has changed and admitted that he has changed his views/positions on issues (e.g. on abortion). That's not hypocrisy, especially when one admits that he has CHANGED. A hypocrite is someone who pretends to be someone he's not, and Huckabee is a proven hypocrite. He claims and pretends he is a "Christian" and touts his Jesus discipleship, and YET, he has done some unethical, dubitable and corrupt things especially while governor - like hundreds of gifts he was not entitled to, and failing to report them, the mansion's (governor's) furniture, destroying computer hard drives to hide information, using campaign money for personal things, lying about his theology degree, terminating an attorney for not defending/covering up his son's crime, audacious pardons, etc., etc., Need I list more? If a poll were taken which one, of Romney and Huckabee, would be more associated with the words - "questionable character and corruption" - Huckabee would beat Romney by miles. And yet, here's a guy who claims to be a Christian Leader, invoking Christ's name at will? Now, that's HYPOCRISY! OK, Dave?

The question that I am struggling with is the issue of whether or not Mormons are Christians. Who has the right to tell somebody they aren't a Christian when every single person of that faith claims to be a Christian.

I think most Evangelicals understand this.

Does believing this make you a Christian?

The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) is often accused by Evangelical pastors of not believing in Christ and, therefore, not being a Christian religion. This article helps to clarify such misconceptions by examining early Christianity's comprehension of baptism, the Godhead, the deity of Jesus Christ and His Atonement.

The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) adheres more closely to First Century Christianity and the New Testament than any other denomination. For example, Harper's Bible Dictionary entry on the Trinity says "the formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the New Testament."

I agree with your reasoning that Evangelical pastors denigrate the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) to protect their flock (and their livelihood).

Mathew, it's only not hypocrisy if you BELIEVE Romney's statements that he's changed his views for any reason other than getting elected. I don't.

As for the issue of whether Mormons are Christians or not, from the point of view of the more extreme evangelical sects episcopalians, lutherans, orthodoxl, catholic and a variety of other Christian sects aren't actually Christian as they define it.

Dave

Dave, perhaps you could write us up an article explaining exactly what these Romney flip-flops are, cause I'm mostly not seeing them. Other than that he flat changed his mind on abortion, I'm not seeing where he's dramatically changed his policy positions. I watched Russert work on him for an hour (and I would LOVE to watch he peel the bark off the Huckster), and even Tim Russert couldn't get too much on him.

That's not to say that I support Romney, or necessarily AGREE with any of his positions - but I just don't see where he's been that egregious with the flippin and the floppin.

I would love to see Russert interview Huckabee again, too, but he's too chicken to go on.

He is so soft on immigration that Gilchrist is now thinking of withdrawing his support.

He comes out with this ultra-strong plan on immigration in the last week or so (which came straight out of the pages of a two year old National Review magazine, according to Rich Lowry).

The real flipper is the Huckster.

Rod Johnson - I suppose that other than Jesus and the person who claims to know Him, there's no other being born of woman who knows for sure the authenticity of a man's relationship with God. King David, presumed upon his position as "a man after God's own heart" and became an adulterer, a murderer, and a liar...and then experienced forgiveness, and was used by God to give us *Psalm 51.

I haven't found anything in the Nicene Creed to which you linked that "ain't Bible," and yet many people who recite it every Sunday aren't even sure they believe in God.

Jesus said "ye must be born again," but right after that: "the wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and wither it goeth: so is everyone who is born of the Spirit." So, being "born again" seems to be a rather mysterious experience, differing from person to person, doesn't it?

It's a huge paradigm shift to switch from a worldview that doesn't include God (the worldview of professing atheists and even some who still claim membership in one religious organization or another) to a worldview founded upon the belief, growing over the years like a plant (including winters of doubt) that God is real and active in the world and in one's life. The religious organization that served as "midwife" for that paradigm shift tends to be the one whose theology one accepts as Truth, at least at first. That's only natural.

The Bible* says there is no one, NO ONE, who comes to God with a contrite heart who is turned away. I can't find any qualifications as to the level of doctrinal purity required. Quite the opposite: the one to be forgiven and embraced by God must come to Him as a little child.

In a lifetime no one can comprehend the height, breadth, width of the love that drove Jesus to the Cross. I know it extends much farther than any Christian alive today can imagine. That doesn't mean we don't warn people that there is a Day of Reckoning coming, and tell people, gently and respectfully, what we believe about Jesus.

The Judgment Day is going to be scary, but I rejoice that I get to stand in line waiting my turn rather than having to sit as Judge. That's Jesus' job, and he knows the secrets of men's hearts better than I ever could.

That is a very good question by the way, Rod Johnson--and Al Barger, you have a thought-provoking web-page about faith that I wish I'd looked at before before I made the snarky remark about mud-wrestling (#52).

Merry Christmas one and all, and don't forget that RON PAUL BUMPER STICKERS make terrific stocking stuffers!

"Believing in magic, fairies, juju, moroni, yahweh or any other fantasy ought to disqualify you from the presidency"

Dave, most Americans believe in God and are Christians. Just because you are an atheist/agnostic and view Christianity as a fairy tale doesn't change the fact that most Americans heartily disagree. And in a democracy, those Americans get to cast votes that count just as much as yours. And some of these voters will likely cast their votes based upon this issue (for better or for worse). Denying this fact is to deny an important political reality. So this is certainly a topic worthy of discussion, especially with elections right around the corner.

(BTW, I'm agnostic, and I'm pretty sure Al is as well.)

re: #54

Ruvy,

Gee, doesn't Israel have religion(Judaism)-based political parties? ;-)

"you'd be hard pressed to find the least hint of impropriety in anything Mitt Romney has ever done in life."

You mean other than being a member of a religion that discriminated against blacks until 1978?

From Barack Hussein Obama's church:

We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian... Our roots in the Black religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization. God has superintended our pilgrimage through the days of slavery, the days of segregation, and the long night of racism. It is God who gives us the strength and courage to continuously address injustice as a people, and as a congregation. We constantly affirm our trust in God through cultural expression of a Black worship service and ministries which address the Black Community.

"He is so soft on immigration that Gilchrist is now thinking of withdrawing his support."

I was unaware of this, so I looked it up. Thanks.

Here's the story.

RJ: I've always felt welcome in the Black Churches I've visited. One of them even had an organ riff played before the name of each visitor as it was announced, including mine. The Black Worship experience has certain distinctives that would be lost--there is no other music like Black Gospel--if it were just absorbed into another (also worth preserving) expression of Christianity, such as "Smells and Bells" High Church Anglicanism, for instance.

The discussion was about Romney not Obama, RJ. Is your reading comprehension that poor?

At @82:

Gee, doesn't Israel have religion(Judaism)-based political parties? ;-)

Of course we do. Here, we come right out and say so: there is the National Religious Party, the Flag of the Torah, etc. In addition, we Jews are chock full of atheists, agnostics and just plain G-d haters, in addition to fools who think that shaking and praying is the only solution to bringing about Redemption - if they even understand what Redemption really means.

The national anthem, (haTikvá, The Hope) talks about the soul of the Jew. No Arab Israeli can sing that song and ever mean it. The Zionist State of Israel is meant to be a Jewish State, and there is just no getting around that fact.

So, don't compare us to you. Your country was founded by Deists and Theists who essentially incorporated the Laws of Noah and their spirit into their constitutions and laws. Having wandered from those laws, Americans have lost their way and lost their blessing from G-d, the blessing you sang about in your childhood in America the Beautiful and G-d Bless America. Your nation pretends to be non-religious, and you have oodles of people there (including American Jews) who are invested in the reality of that pretense.

El Bicho. #83 wasn't a non sequitur. The flow of this thread has been alternating all along between candidate-bashing and religion-bashing. #83 was a hybrid of these elements, being composed of LDS Church-defense, Romney-defense, and Black-Church-bashing, and only by extension of the Black-Church-bashing, Obama-bashing.

Miss Irene- I thank you for your testimony and thoughtful comments. You're definitely representing better than average for some of the Christians here, and well above the average for a lot of the Ron Paul supporters we've seen in these parts this year.

Brother Elliott might be pushing the point a little bit in comparing the quasi-racialist creed of Obama's church with the openly exclusionary history of the LDS. Still, shoehorning that kind of racial stuff into religion is just not good.

But of course, there are black churches and then there are black churches. I'm glad of the black churches and their music, which music has certainly provided me much spiritual sustenance. I've got the Dunham Jubilee Singers dreaming of the judgment morning right now. I think it's going to be Sister Rosetta for breakfast. There's a world of difference between a Christian church that has mostly black congregants and style vs Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson's political demagoguery dressed up as religion.

Also, if we're going to smack Romney around because the LDS was exclusionary to blacks, then certainly Rev Huckabee among others should get to answer just about as much. White Christians in the South were often not any bit better about their treatment of blacks. I'm pretty sure there were a lot of sincere Baptists under them Klan robes - and probably few if any Mormons.

"Is Mormonism Christian?" is a very important question. The answer is equally important and simple. No. Mormonism is not Christian.

If you are a Mormon, please realize that CARM is not trying to attack you, your character, or the sincerity of your belief. If you are a non-Mormon looking into Mormonism, or if you are a Christian who is simply researching Mormonism, then this paper should be of help to you.

The reason Mormonism is not Christian is because it denies one or more of the essential doctrines of Christianity. Of the essential doctrines (that there is only one God, Jesus is God in flesh, forgiveness of sins is by grace alone, and Jesus rose from the dead physically, the gospel being the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus), Mormonism denies three of them: how many gods there are, the person of Jesus, and His work of salvation.

Mormonism teaches that God the Father has a body of flesh and bones (D. & C. 130:22) and that Jesus is a creation. It teaches that he was begotten in heaven as one of God's spirit children (See the Book, Jesus the Christ, by James Talmage, p. 8). This is in strict contrast to the biblical teaching that he is God in flesh (John 1:1, 14), eternal (John 1:1, 2, 15), uncreated, yet born on earth (Col. 1:15), and the creator all (John 1:3; Col. 1;16-17). Jesus cannot be both created and not created at the same time. Though Mormonism teaches that Jesus is god in flesh, it teaches that he is "a" god in flesh, one of three gods that comprise the office of the Trinity (Articles of Faith, by Talmage, pp. 35-40). These three gods are the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. This is in direct contradiction of the biblical doctrine that there is only one God (Isaiah 44:6,8; 45:5). See Trinity for a correct discussion of what the Trinity is.

Because Mormonism denies the biblical truth of who God is, who Jesus is, how forgiveness of sins is attained, and what the gospel is, the Mormon is not Christian -- in spite of all his claims that he is.
this is a direct quote

And thank YOU for your kind words Al Barger. In BC sometimes it's (apologies to Meredith Willson): "Bash a little. Snark a little. Bash a little. Snark a little. Bash. Bash. Bash. Snark a little. Bash a lot." And I'm the worst because it's so much dang fun!

Have a good day, Al, and how can any day not be good if it starts with the Dunham Jubilee Sisters?

Irene, it is no defense of Romney to point out what happens in Obama's church, just a tactic to distract from the original point when the commentor has no answer.

There are plenty of reasons to oppose Romney and Huckabee that have little or nothing to do with religion. For those looking for a change from Bush, these two are not likely to provide it.

I love the fact that Fred Thompson is now calling Huckabee a "liberal." I guess that puts moderate Dems like me on the left side of Mars or something.

Dave, most Americans believe in God and are Christians. Just because you are an atheist/agnostic and view Christianity as a fairy tale doesn't change the fact that most Americans heartily disagree. And in a democracy, those Americans get to cast votes that count just as much as yours. And some of these voters will likely cast their votes based upon this issue (for better or for worse). Denying this fact is to deny an important political reality. So this is certainly a topic worthy of discussion, especially with elections right around the corner.

RJ, I don't deny the fact that this will happen. I just disagree with the concept that it's in anyway desirable to put a candidate's religious beliefs high on the list of considerations in determining who to vote for. I'd rather have an honest Jew or Muslim than a dishonest atheist. I generally have great respect for quakers, but the only one we ever elected president was about as bent as you can get despite his religion.

That said, I do think that openly accepting ANY form of extremist belief be it religion or something else is a serious negative for a presidential candidate. I wouldn't want a racist, and for the same reasons I'd be inclined to reject a lot of fundamentalists who have extreme beliefs which are millenialist or exclusionary.

Believing in god is just fine with me. Basing government policy on that belief in god is not.

Dave

Brother Al,

The whole thing seems to be a matter of drawing lines, and one can compare the two Romney and Huckabee as "Christians" only if the line is drawn defining Mormons as Christians.

Not to be opening Pandora's box here, but if comment #89 is correct, the real answer to the whole question posed by your article is that it does not matter whether Huckabee is a scumbag or not. By definition, he is the better Christian simply because Mitt Romney, the Mormon, is not a Christian.

Mind you, I'm not saying anything against Mormons or their beliefs. They are irrelevant to me. And I assume that a number of Mormons will get up on their hind legs and scream that I am anti-Mormon. I'm not. I could care less. I should point out to you here that the phrase "good Christian" - the key to your article - is to me an oxymoron, much like "military music". But then again, I guess that comes of the mohel having his taken his tip when I was a little babe, giving me the name Reuven.

Brother Ruvy, I appreciate the drawing of lines thing, but I think I have the truer and more significant line. My line as to who's a better Christian is primarily who does the best job of trying to act in a Christ-like manner on a day to day basis - not who most carefully fills out a man-made doctrinal checklist.

By that light, I'd say that, for example, our famously non-believing Brother Nalle is nonetheless a much better Christian than Fred Phelps.

Sister Irene, you might wish to raid my music stash, particularly the Good News Gospel section. I don't dig much on being hated on, but a small pinch of snark is totally groovy. I certainly got some of it coming to me.

Y'all might be interested in THIS RESPONSE to my column that came in the email.

Mormons are Christians because the believe in Christ as he is literally presented in the Bible. As the Son of God who performed miracles and died and was ressurected. Belief in those truths makes one Christian. Individual interpretations are encompassed by the basic truths and principles established by the New Testament. If Mormons believe all that is presented and written of Christ in the Bible then they are absolutely Christians.

This is because he is a Mormon, and regardless of what people think, this makes him not a Christian. Plain fact.

Quater- Don't be an asshole. YOU don't get to decide on whether someone else is a Christian. They worship Jesus Christ and claim the name of Christ - and mostly do a better job of actually living like Christians than many of the basic Baptists and Pentecostals I've known.

If not accepting the right doctrine about the trinity ie the one YOU have chosen as revealed truth means that they're going to hell for not agreeing with you, then seems like that'd be up to Jesus to decide. But I'm sure your mortal human frame will show some basic Christian humility, at least to the extent of not presuming to ex-communicate good sincere Christians because you don't like their brand. Not your job. I mean, who died and left you in charge of deciding who's a real Christian and not?

I am supporting Ron Paul for President, and am a Mormon. Most of my friends are not members of my church, and I often have attended meetings or vacation bible schools with them and their families. I have the utmost respect for all of these people - how they lead their lives, and their devotion to Jesus Christ. However, one experience I had a few years ago serves to illustrate why Mormons believe we are Christian, and why we have trouble understanding why some people do not believe we are Christian. While attending vacation bible school with some friends in Raleigh, North Carolina, the pastor divided the adults into two classes - the "advanced" bible class, and the "beginner" bible class. My wife and I both served Mormon missions as young adults, and though a little leery decided to attend the "advanced" Bible class. It turned out that of the 40-50 adults, 6 people, including us, went to the advanced class. The class over the course of the week turned out not to be about the bible, but about the creeds of the Christian churches.

The first creed discussed was the Apostle's Creed, which states:

=-=-=-=

I believe in God, the Father Almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:
Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell.

The third day He arose again from the dead.
He ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty,
whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic church,
the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting.

Amen.

=-=-==

The teacher, who was not the pastor, then asked each student around the table what they thought of this creed. One expressed some reservation about Jesus "rising from the dead" and the part about "the resurrection of the body", in that it implied that Christ arose with a body and that there will be a physical resurrection. Another did not believe the portion of the creed that indicated that Christ descended into hell. Another questioned how he could sit at the right hand of God if he was God.

My wife and I were the last ones to speak. Both of us answered that we felt the creed reflected the biblical teachings of Christ and the Apostles correctly, and we believed in the creed 100%.

My point is that many people "cling" to the different beliefs of Mormons from other Christian churches, while ignoring the fact that the core Mormons beliefs match the creeds of the early Christian church closer than the beliefs of their particular sect.

Even the controversy about Mormon belief/disbelief in the Trinity is enlightening. Mormons believe in the Trinity, although not in same way as most other Christian sects teach the Trinity. Mormons believe that the three members of the Trinity can be referred to as one God, as they are one in purpose, and never vary from one another in thought. Indeed, Mormons believe that if you have seen Christ you have seen the Father, because they look, act, think, and do exactly alike. The only difference between the beliefs, which is entire exagerrated, is that most other Christian sects believe the three members of the Trinity are three manifestations of the same being. But if the three are separate beings but think, act, and do as One, isn't the net result the same thing?

There are many beliefs in different sects that outsiders could call "bizarre", but at the core, Christians, including Mormons, believe the same basic things. Some examples of "bizaare things" that are either shared beliefs that Mormons have with other Christians, or are believed and taught by other sects, are:

Transubstantiation - (not a Mormon belief)
Virgin Birth - (a Mormon belief)
Worship of Saints - (not a Mormon belief)
Earth created in 6000 years - (most Mormons don't believe, but no official Church stance)
Infallibility of the Bible - (not a Mormon belief)
Faith Healings - (a Mormon belief)
Prophecy - (a Mormon belief)
Speaking in Tongues - (a Mormon belief)
Jesus casting evil spirits into Pigs - (a Mormon belief)

Mitt Romney says he believes in the faith of his fathers. Does he believe this?

From Doctrine and Covenants 132:61-62 (Mormon scripture), which says: If any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else. And if he have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified.

Jacob- That's an extremely sorry excuse for a "gotcha" attack on Romney. Yes, the LDS used to support polygamy. Not that this is the worst religious tenet ever, but this was of course given up many years ago in any case.

But it's a particularly asinine thing to throw at Romney, as he (like apparently almost all Mormons) is unquestionably a devoted monogamous family man. There are a LOT more Baptists running around and humping everything than what you would find among the famously family oriented Mormons.

In short, your question prima facie looks like a cheap bigoted attack, and not at all like a real question or legitimate argument against candidate Romney.

Call Mormons "non-traditional christians." Its clear and will avoid pointless arguements.

Any religion which promotes plural wives (Brigham Young - 76 wives, Joseph Smith - 51 wives) can't be all bad.

Although I do have a problem with the fact that the Mormons didn't permit African-Americans to be preachers until the late 1970s.

And what's the deal with that Mountain Meadows Massacre?

"I believe in my Mormon faith, and I endeavor to live by it. ..."

-- Mitt Romney

"And if he have ten virgins given unto him..."

-- Mormon Doctrine and Covenants 132:61-62...

---

Why doesn't Romney say "I don't agree with the Doctrine?

Romney's record as governor or of Massachusetts shows he is a chameleon and an opportunist.

Romney has a problem with being honest.

"I mean, who died and left you in charge of deciding who's a real Christian and not?"

Umm, Jerry Falwell.

Jerry Falwell left you in charge? Well, Gene Scott left ME in charge, and my preacher can definitely beat up your preacher.

"Call Mormons "non-traditional christians." Its clear and will avoid pointless arguements."

Uh, no, it's a cult.

Jacob, if Romney is a Chameleon and an opportunist why doesn't he abandon or distance himself from his Mormon Faith? It is by far the most conroversial aspect of his candidacy. Clearly he is a man of integrity and deep moral principles. These are two of the most valuable charactaristics we could ask for in a president.

"If Romney is a Chameleon and an opportunist why doesn't he abandon or distance himself from his Mormon Faith?

Romney believes voters won't focus on what he did as governor of Massachusetts. That's his gamble and he believes the MSM won't report on it.

If he did distance himself it would raise more questions about what Joseph Smith wrote..

REMF- You're certainly welcome to take a hike with your "cult" nonsense. That's just a smear word to describe millions of hard working, tax paying family people who mow their lawns and make good neighbors and worship at the church of their choice.

I could and would just as easily describe whatever brand of snake oil you like as a "cult." You and Jacob just have no just reason let alone any needful reason to be hating on Romney and Mormons. You're surely not behaving in a very Christ like manner here.