What drivel!
And tell me this...when these so called "evolving nations" get into trouble again, and they will they'll call on the U.S. again to bail them out. Who's going to come to your aid..Venezuala, Germany, France, the U.K. Russian, China?

Real,

I'm surprised no one had jumped on your article - the usual Bush/conservative apologists. They're probably still watching football.

That so many people either deny that we are no longer loved by the larger world and looked upon as its savior, or those who may admit to it, but don't give a rats ass, thumbing their noses at any who don't grovel at our feet. That number is growing exponentially.

History seems to offer such people no lessons. Virtually every other "empire" in history has succumbed at least in part owing to their arrogance and their assumption of always being in the right, always having their respective god's blessing, and that their hegemony will endure forever.

It is not without significance that the dollar has lost its power. Prior to its general release, one Euro was worth around ninety cents. Now it takes nearly $1.50 to acquire a single Euro.

The sub-prime mortgage crisis in the U.S. is having a negative ripple effect internationally as many countries had invested in American real estate and in American lenders. Consequently, they are not happy campers.

On a more personal level, people in all parts of the world have either come to hate us, or at best find us wanting in character and political wisdom.

I do not HATE America as most on the right would claim. But I do recognize that this country has made great and egregious missteps on the international stage politically, economically and militarily.

B-tone

US being hated abroad is, despite what some of you who are only now discovering this think, not recent. US has been hated in other lands at least since the fifties and the post-war economic boom, when the US economy surged so far above that of any other nation in the world.

In fact this resentment was and is very similar to the hatred currently so popular in this land, of the highly paid CEOs whose income reaches multiples of hundreds of times their employees' pay scales.

As most of you know, I'm bicultural, having grown up in another country. During thirty years in the airline business, I also traveled extensively throughout the world. Everywhere I have gone (especially in what these days is fashionably called the "Third World"), I have run into at least a few individuals who expressed intense dislike and resentment of the US, for a variety of reasons. As I've listened to complaints, I've invariably sensed an undercurrent of the type of resentment the poor often (even usually) feel for the rich. And no, Stan, I've never been to Oz, where, I know from you and many of your fellow Aussies, US citizens are (mostly) well liked.

There are many other reasons for the resentment, including of course, behavior, not only as a nation in the international arena, but as individuals when in foreign lands, as well. Not for nothing have Americans been referred to as "ugly Americans" for decades.

Realist writes,

"...the brash assertion of Pedro Domínguez Brito, who has taken up - in an article written in the Dominican Republic's El Caribe - the long-term position that the term "American" is not the exclusive property of the WASP citizenry of the United States."

Not surprisingly, I agree wholeheartedly with Mr. Dominguez's premise. It's a perfect metaphor for the arrogance of Americans that they consider themselves (but no one else from this hemisphere) as Americans, and have in fact, as Dominguez points out, trained the rest of the world to think the same way.

Which is why, when traveling abroad, I join with my fellow Mexicans and refer to citizens of the USA as "Unitedstatesers" (Estadounidenses).

As I've mentioned in other comment threads, I have a son in Germany. While he is not ashamed of his heritage, neither is he foolish enough to thoughtlessly place himself in harm's way. While on balance, most Germans still tolerate, even like American citizens, there is a strong current of anti-American sentiment amongst a small, but not insignificant portion of the German population and I presume elsewhere. Some are prone to violence. My son is fluent in German, but is still at times betrayed by an American accent. He generally keeps his guard up.

Hell, on the evening after the 9/11 attacks, he was in Berlin and got drunk with a group of mostly Brits. Upon separating at around four or five in the morning, he realized that he could not remember the location of the hostel at which he was staying. He roamed about for a time and stumbled into the only open restaurant he could find. It just happened to be an Afghani restaurant. Bad luck, perhaps. But he drank some coffee and started a lengthy discussion with the owners. So all turned out well in that instance.
But that is not always the case.

Clavos is correct. We have been working on our unfavorable reputation at least since the end of WWII, some will say long before that. Ultimately, I don't suppose it matters.

What does matter is if the powers that be now and in the future acknowledge this shift in attitudes working against us, and, if acknowledged, how they deal with it. Failing to do so will likely foster the growth of our disfavor and sow more seeds of our ultimate demise.

B-tone

What happened to my comment here??

I'm surprised no one had jumped on your article - the usual Bush/conservative apologists. They're probably still watching football.

I've been out Christmas shopping, but frankly I read the article last night and there was nothing about it to comment on. It's the same contrived collection of misconceptions and pure bullshit we're used to from Realist.

That so many people either deny that we are no longer loved by the larger world and looked upon as its savior, or those who may admit to it, but don't give a rats ass, thumbing their noses at any who don't grovel at our feet. That number is growing exponentially.

I think you are writing off the rest of the world as far less intellectually sophisticated than they really are. Do you really think that the average European is not capable of seeing both the positives and negatives of the role the US plays in the world?

The truth is that while there may be some hate and resentment, it's certainly not the only attitude foreigners have towards America, and some of those attitudes are positive. Plus how people feel about America depends on their political alignment, their age, their first-hand contact with Americans, what they do for a living, what country they live in and a whole bunch of other factors.

Your young Italian marxist student who's a big fan of uruknet.info probably truly hates the US. Most people who are older and think a little more clearly can probably come up with a more complex response.

And there ARE people who are certainly pretty pro-American. I can link to websites and run out names of notable examples, but it's not really worth the effort - oh hell, two examples. Check out thedissidentfrogman.com for an example of a very rational pro-American Frenchman - and he's linked to others. Take a read of George MacDonald Fraser's memoir Light's on at Signpost for a really interesting and quite pro-American viewpoint. The logic of it ought to be obvious. Of course, a lot of your more pro-American types have actually moved to America.

My observation is that you find the heaviest concentration of pro-American sentiment in the countries which are having the most trouble with muslim immigrants. They have the first hand experiene to mature their perspective on America's role in the world.

History seems to offer such people no lessons. Virtually every other "empire" in history has succumbed at least in part owing to their arrogance and their assumption of always being in the right, always having their respective god's blessing, and that their hegemony will endure forever.

Your mistake is in thinking that the US is an empire in any traditional sense. It certainly lacks most of the appurtenances of Empire. At heart, the US is nothing more than the concept that men should live free as a nation and as individuals. As our government moves us away from this we cease to BE the US by no longer being what defines our nation.

It is not without significance that the dollar has lost its power. Prior to its general release, one Euro was worth around ninety cents. Now it takes nearly $1.50 to acquire a single Euro.

And this makes Europeans angry because they can suddenly buy American goods really cheaply?

The sub-prime mortgage crisis in the U.S. is having a negative ripple effect internationally as many countries had invested in American real estate and in American lenders. Consequently, they are not happy campers.

Except for the ones who are smartly buying up real estate NOW and getting fantastic deals.

On a more personal level, people in all parts of the world have either come to hate us, or at best find us wanting in character and political wisdom.

SOME people. Some people all over the world have always hated us. I'm not at all convinced that it's because we deserve it or that there's anything we could do differently which would change it. Plus I'd just as soon some of those people go on hating us for good reasons.

Dave

Dave/Chris, any chance of restoring my IMHO well-thought out comment.

BC does some bizarre stuff sometimes.

Stan, your comment was posted twice. I deleted the first of them, but for some unknown reason both copies have disappeared.

Perhaps Condy Rice pinched the other copy ... to get a few ideas :)

Dave,

When it suits you, you are always a "glass half full" kinda guy. Any argument which turns against the U.S. you assume the role of apologist.

Is the U.S. an empire in the traditional sense? No. Is the U.S. "in effect" an empire? Resoundingly yes! Pretty much since at least the end of WWII the U.S. has had enormous influence, and yes, control to one degree or other, over a large portion of the world. That we did not openly and militarily invade countries and take direct control of their governments, industry, etc. does not obviate this reality. The results are much the same.

Many people maintain a love/hate relationship with the U.S. Certainly, there is envy. But with envy often comes resentment. Resentment can foster hate, and ultimately violence.

That the negative attitudes that many foreign countries and their people have is based in this envy/resentment/hate equation does not mitigate the significance nor the possible adverse consequences that attend them.

As to Americans, what we have is the same "I got mine, so fuck you" attitude that permeates our own society and, is then carried abroad. As I noted, resentment and hatred are a natural human response to such arrogance. That you and others refuse to acknowledge its presence or its significance can only go further toward more of the same in the international arena.

Certainly, as I indicated above, generally the people we encountered in Germany and earlier (prior to 9/11) in Vienna were generally friendly or at least tolerant toward us. After all, we were spending money in their establishments, and generally most people tend not to be confrontational. But that doesn't mean they don't harbour misgivings or resentments about us. They may be mistaken about many of their beliefs and negative attitudes toward us, but that doesn't really matter, does it? It is unlikely that anyone or anything is going to pop up in their lives to "put them straight" about us god fearin' Americans which will change those misgivings and resentments.

And it is just the attitude that Louis presents above,

"And tell me this...when these so called "evolving nations" get into trouble again, and they will they'll call on the U.S. again to bail them out. Who's going to come to your aid..Venezuala, Germany, France, the U.K. Russian, China?"

that grates on people. The assumption of our superiority - the essentially "might makes right" attitude that ultimately may well bring us down. Remember, "the bigger they are...."

B-tone

While I think that B-tone is right when he notes that the USA is at a nadir in terms of its popularity worldwide, I'm still quite bemused by the preoccupation of all of you about world opinion.

Being a nation is not a popularity contest. No matter what the US does, there will always be those who hate it, just as there will always be those who love it.

Rather than worry about what Frenchmen or Brits or Russians, Chinese, Iraqis, etc think about the USA, US citizens should be more preoccupied with what you think of yourselves. Are you happy (or not) with how your country is being run, is the USA living up to its own principles and standards? Are its citizens comfortable within their own national "skin?"

IMO, these kinds of concerns are MUCH more important than what some Tibetan yak herder thinks about the US.

The US should take heed of the Bard's advice in Hamlet, "To thine own self be true," and stop worrying about what the world thinks. If the country is living up to its own principles, its friends will support it.

Your enemies never will.

...according to McNamara who claims to have learned from his monumental fuck ups: understanding what the other guy's shoes feel like and modifying behavior based on this 'knowledge' is critical in avoiding war

so...maybe there's a balance with Clavos' view to be had somewhere

"Despite Northern Rock failing, Britain's economy isn't in the dire straits ours is, so they can afford it."

I really wonder where ideas like this come from. Do you really believe the U.S. economy is in dire straits?

Maybe you could write an article on why alarmism is so prevalent in American pop-culture?

Clav,

Any preoccupation some of us may have regarding what others think of us should not be simply an idle dalliance. What people think, their attitudes and opinions regarding others often go a long way towards shaping their response. The Tibetan yak herder may not be high on our list of concerns. It's doubtful that many of the "herder" bunch in that part of the world gives the U.S. any particular thought at all.

But what people in positions of influence in say, China, Russia, much of western Europe, most of the Middle East and other parts of the globe can have a significant effect on our future.

I don't disagree with you about the importance of tending to our own knitting, but that includes how we are perceived abroad. It is obvious that much of the muslim world has little understanding of us. Their "knowledge" of us is likely significantly tainted by those who are set against us. These people and their opinions should not be dismissed or overlooked. It is partly our lack of attention to these matters which has put us in the current unenviable position of being a major target of terrorist attacks. Those fuckers want what we've got, and they want us dead. That much of the rest of the world does not think particularly highly of us can be problematic as regards their enthusiasm in working with us in preventing such an eventuality.

B-tone

B-tone:

"It's doubtful that many of the "herder" bunch in that part of the world gives the U.S. any particular thought at all."

Of course not. It was intended as a bit of hyperbole to illustrate the point. Poetic license, if you will.

"It is obvious that much of the muslim world has little understanding of us. Their "knowledge" of us is likely significantly tainted by those who are set against us. These people and their opinions should not be dismissed or overlooked. It is partly our lack of attention to these matters which has put us in the current unenviable position of being a major target of terrorist attacks. Those fuckers want what we've got, and they want us dead."

Agreed. And with that particular bunch, it's my contention the it matters not what the US does to win friends and influence other nations (apologies to Dale Carnegie), they will still come after US.

My unspoken point was that, if the US focuses on "tend(ing) to our knitting," and returns to its own long-held principles, the friends will be there.

Again, the enemies never will.

Clav,

But are we then to simply dismiss the "enemies," or assume that it's their problem? Why are they our enemies? If there is fault to be found, what lay at its roots? Is there no platform upon which we can foster dialogue? Is there no way to come to an understanding - reach a compromise, dispel the antipathy? If not, what course should we take?

I'm not trying to be a wide eyed idealist here. We are supposed to be the leader of the free world, whatever that means. I think that, in part at least, it means that we should be leaders. I think that it means that we should and need be smarter than the other guys. That we must learn from history, the repeated lessons that we all know, but so often choose to ignore in the belief that somehow without thought or understanding, we will not repeat the mistakes of those who came before.

I know it seems like I've mounted some kind of soap box, but I just think we accept the status quo and fold our tents at our peril.

B-tone

B-tone,

"But are we then to simply dismiss the "enemies," or assume that it's their problem?"

Absolutely not. We do so at our own peril.

That said, there are enemies, and there are enemies.

What do I mean by that? Well, for all his rhetoric about the devil, Hugo Chavez despises the US but is more of a paper tiger than a real threat. The US should sit down with him and others like him (by that I mean those with stated grievances who have sworn to resist the US and its allies for whatever reason, but who don't, at this time, present a real threat).

Then there are the (other) enemies. Even some of them can be palavered with (Kim Jong Il, e.g.), and US should continue to talk, bringing to bear whatever pressures (including economic pressures, international sanctions, and/or threats of force) that are at its disposal to ensure that the results are fair, and NOT inimical to US sovereignty.

Enemies which are REAL threats, not only to the US, but to the world in general, as appeared to be the case with the Soviet Union during the Cold War, can be engaged in talks, but here the US should also be carrying as big a stick it can muster.

The enemies that currently fit (IMO) that role these days are, of course, the Islamic radicals behind Al Qaeda, and the Imams in Iran, Pakistan and elsewhere who are fomenting visceral hatred of the US and all who stand beside her.

You mention learning from history. I agree. The Islamists currently aligned against the US and the West are the heirs of the Islamic warriors who conquered the Iberian peninsula in the eighth century. They are the successors to the Barbary Pirates of the eighteenth century, and they carry with them historical baggage dating back hundreds of years, to the founding of Islam. They are fanatics, and they are implacable.

And they are the enemies on whom talk is, again in my opinion, wasted. I don't agree with those who say that they are against the US because of US bases in Saudi, or any of the myriad of excuses which make the US responsible for their behavior. Those who claim those provocations and who are themselves Islamic are, I think, lying. Those who are Westerners and who agree with them are, I think, deluded.

They have historically hated the West and continue to do so. They are sworn to eradicate "infidels," and the US should take their threats seriously. They are not choosing the path on which they have embarked because of US troops on Saudi soil; they are religious fanatics who are motivated by their religious beliefs, and like all religious fanatics, will not be dissuaded by talk.

At present, they're not all that strong; either in numbers, or militarily. But, they are recruiting at an alarming pace, and in the not-distant future will present a much more united and stronger force against not only the US, but all of the West.

They have made their intentions crystal clear.

Your response is pretty much as I suggested in my first paragraph above.

I agree with you fully as regards the radical muslims. That is also one of the reasons why I am so vocal in my opposition to those who would create an American theocracy. In that event you would have two implacable camps, each believing themselves to be god's chosen. Worldly considerations take a back seat to securing a seat on the Utopia Express.

In the current situation there is still no common ground between the west and radical islamists. They look upon non-muslim infidels as sub-human. How does one negotiate with them? I agree. They are truly the most dangerous of our enemies.

I would say that it is imcumbant upon us, though, to create and maintain dialogue with the less radical, more main stream muslims.

I must admit that I have mixed feelings regarding the Palestinians. I know there are a number of them who are just as opposed to the U.S. and the west in general as other radical groups. But, I do believe that no other group, perhaps including the Israelis, which has had more opposition from virtually every side as the Palestinians. They have historically had little help from other mid-eastern countries, and certainly not from any of the super powers. Their penchant for suicide bombings is loathesome, but they must feel as if they have no one to which to turn

B-tone

"At heart, the US is nothing more than the concept that men should live free as a nation and as individuals."
- Dave Nalle

And thank God those concepts are protected by men and women brave enough to actually put their words into action and serve.

Don't thank god. Thank the men and women.

Realist, why exactly do you hate America so much? Your blind rage and unearned contempt are truly puzzling to me. You're about to come down your leg in anticipation of getting to see America get hurt.

Then there's the parts where you're just making stuff up or are simply delusional, ie "Neither is it good that our democratic republic has been functionally replaced with a trial dictatorship." Ew, scary! But entirely fictional. We're having elections for a new president starting in about two weeks.

Baritone:It is not without significance that the dollar has lost its power. Prior to its general release, one Euro was worth around ninety cents. Now it takes nearly $1.50 to acquire a single Euro."

The thing is Baritone, europeans on wages get paid a lot less of 'em, although it kind of averages out.

The fall in the dollar will have no noticeable impact to the average consumer in the US, unless you are buying european or other foreign luxury goods. You can still buy as much locally as you always did.

For me, of course, it's great if I'm travelling ... the $A is now at near parity (up and down a bit, though) with the $US dollar, which means it stacks up well against other currencies.

Still, the fact remains, Europeans, while they have a high standard of living, don't get paid as many euros as you over there or me over here get paid in our respective dollar currencies.

When I told a work acquaintance over in Portugal this year a) how much I got paid, b) the price of cars and fuel, c) houses (both to buy and rent), d) and the general cost of living, she was flabbergasted. And they don't have a bad standatrd of living over there either. They are mostly pretty damn comfortable.

But ours (collectively, here and in the US) is still much better, falling US dollar or not.

The fact is, you over there and me over here are doing a lot better than most Europeans. I watched a show on the History channel about British migrants to Australia the other day in the 1950s, they were earning double the wages in Oz that they were earning in the UK - and very happy about it too, they were, especially as eveything was cheaper to buy. That is still generally the cae. I recently got offered a job in the UK, and simply couldn't take it because although the pay in pounds sterling was cosnidered very good for the UK, it didn't stack up to what I get here and meant I couldn't have kept my house or sent my daughter to a private school (which you'd honestly want to do in the UK given the general state of its education system).

The good thing for you is that US exports are up, which is always a great advantage for a falling (or slightly corrected) currency). Because we have had our own car industry for so long (Fords, General Motors-Holden, Toyotas, Mitsubishis, etc, and all different and mostly home-grown designs compared to those you see in the States), US cars were rarely seen on our roads except as special imports since the 1960s.

Today, however, there are quite a few (lately, I've seen a heap of them) - and when you think about it, it's a genuine export push because each car built in the US for Australia or NZ has to comply to our special deasign rules and has the steering wheel on the right-hand side.

We export ours to you as well (lately the new Pontiac G8s, which are a rebadged, re-nosed left-hand drive Holden Commodore, I think, courtesy GM's global parts bin) on a lesser scale, but Detroit has obviously put considerable financial resources into this as it's not cheap to reconfigure a production line to right-hand drive.

As I've said before, my wife always buys out of season fruits and nuts from the US at the supermarket because they are better quality, say, than those from Turkey or wherever.

As Clav is fond of saying, the sky ain't falling yet ... and if anything, the correction in the dollar could actually be the making of the modern US, rather than its fall.

Especially if you are exporting big time again on a global scale. Look what happened to Japan. One thing I love about Americans is that they are "can-do" people, and when the going gets tough, the tough get going.

Think about it ...

"I watched a show on the History channel about British migrants to Australia the other day in the 1950s..."

You have a time machine, mate????

Can I come over and try it out?

Just a bit of a gee-up :>)

Mate, you KNOW I'm from the future. It's 4pm Tuesday here. What's the time there Clav??

This IS a time machine.

0018 Tuesday

Clav ... time travel really exists. The datline's a very handy thing.

See, if I leave Sydney and fly to Los Angeles or San Fran direct and miss out Auckland or Honolulu, I actually arrive there before I've left Sydney :) very bloody handy if you've got a bit of work to catch up on.

It's always nice to be one jump ahead of the Seppos too :)

I know about that.

When I went to Nam (on a troopship), we crossed the Date Line during the night of Thursday, August 12th, 1965. When we woke the next morning, it was Saturday the 14th, and we had skipped Friday the 13th!

I always thought it augured well for my tour incountry; and, in the end, I did come home on my feet.

Stan,

If my memory serves, when the Australian dollar was introduced, it was to be worth 10 shillings Australian. At what value was the £A against the $US then? Just curious. I'm a coin collector, among other things (that's one of the ways I got to know all those odds and ends in history - I still have an old NZ three pence and an old Australian penny with the 'roo on it), and was trying to remember what value the $A had against the $US when it was first introduced.

Now, since you're a time traveller from the future, can you draw a map for us all of the Middle East in a decade or so? Oh, wait a minute... I'm also from the future - what do I need you for?

This is the comment Stan posted yesterday

From Name: STM
Comments: Clavos, with respect (and you know I mean it), you are wrong.

The US is not hated abroad, and nor are Amercians.

What is hated is the absurd policies of G.W.Bush, which includes such ridiculous notions as "we don't talk to terrorists".

Which, as I've said before, means the US doesn't negotiate for peaceful resolutions with such countries as Iran or some of the more militant factions of Palestine.

What that effectively does is cut the US out of any potential peace process that might cut its war spending and its human and financial losses. It really is absurd. my bet would be that Cuba, Venezuala, Iran and the militant Palestinaians would love to have a meaningful dialogue with the US. Bush has effectively said: "We don't tak to anyone who wants to kill Ameicans". Which is a surefire way to make sure they want to keep killing Americans.

There is no reason why, with a slightly different approach and a real sense of diplomacy demanded now of the world's most powerful country, the US couldn't solve some of its more extreme current forigen policy disasters by taking. Right now, it's just about excluding everyone who's rattling the sabre.

The fact that some countries have very different political systems that you shouldn't be an issue. Start sending food/medical aid to Cuba on a meaningful level, and accept that Cuba is a communist country and that's simply how it is (no strings attached, and no expectations), and see what a difference that makes. Plenty, I'd wager. Venezuala would be another classic example. Talk, and appease, and accept. Being different to the US doesn't always mean being wrong. It's horses for courses. And you catch more flies with vinegar than with honey.

Talk is cheap ... and a lot fu.cking cheaper than fleets of aircraft carriers.

And it works. I'll cite the British example in Northern Ireland - one of the bloodiest and cruellest terror campaigns ever waged, not just in this (past) century. They went to the table a couple of years ago and asorted out some of their differences and lo and behold, _ peace broke out.

There are lessons to be learned here, and Bush and his poor advice from a plethora of cabinet hawks and bureacrats (most of who are on $200-000,$300,000 packages and couldn't orgainise a piss-up in a brewery) are determined to maintain Ameircan "power" (which takes many different forms and doesn't always mean the bloke with the biggest bazooka) and are doing America no favours at all, either at home or on the world stage.

Some enemies, however, simply don't want to talk no matter what. The muslim fundamentalistsfor a start, who just believe in killing infidels. I guess that includes all of us.

Because of that, there can be no return to the foolish isolationist policies of the US of the 1930s and early 40s. I'll say it again, and Americans should remember Dec 7, 1941, and 9/11, and that the price of peace is eternal vigilance and about much more than just prtecting America's borders (and let's face it, who's going to invade? Canada and Mexico?).

But somewhere in between what's going on now and what the next president might do might be a really good plave to start. Having the US as the world's policeman might not be such a bad idea, provided it follows all due process before it starts wielding the baton - and then only against people who really deserve it.

Stan,

Mate, I'm glad Chris was able to re-post your comment, because, once again it seems you and I (and in this case, B-tone as well) agree far more than we disagree on this issue.

The only exception I have with your entire comment is as to whether the US is disliked around the world and has been since the fifties at least.

Also with respect, I think you may be projecting your own (and that of almost all Aussies) fondness for Yanks to the rest of the world. That fondness is why I personally am so partial to the land of Oz, going all the way back to Vietnam, as you know.

But as for much (not all) of the rest of the world: while Americans may be well accepted abroad as individuals, I still insist that there is substantial and long-standing resentment of the US in other lands, because I have experienced it.

Ruvy, the first time I went to America, I think I was getting more for my Aussie dollar. It was marginal, but I was certainly making a few bob on the side. In 1966, when we first changed over from pounds, a dollar was worth 10 bob (shillings) as you rightly point out. A 20 cent piece here is still often referred to as two bob. Let's hope out culture keeps its colourful lingo, and we don't all end up talking the same thanks to the digital age. I have hope, though: I told my son (aged 20) something the other day, and he looked me fair in the eye and said: "Serious Dad? Fair dinkum?" Even my youngest daughter speaks a bit of strine: "Turn it up, Dad" )stop bullshitting)being a favourite expression. My eldest daughter is so prim and proper you'd think she was English, be she does use the F-word sometimes, which tends to shock more because of her genteel demeanour.

If the dollar in those days was not worth a few cents more than the $US, or evn a few cents less, it at least was at parity (I know at least that I really lost nothing if memory serves me correctly, although it could have been a few cents at most) and the few bob I made on the side was possibly the use of Australian 1c coins that fitted perfectly into American vending machines. Of course it wasn't actually me that did that ... just some blokes I know :)

PS, what is the federal statute of limitations on chocolate/candy/soda/snack-machine crime??

Just out of interest of course.

On a more serious note, I really am sorry about the golf buggy. Boys under 25 just shouldn't be allowed out ...

The pound sterling at one stage was certainly almost one for one - which it ain't now. Then again, we get a lot more of 'em in our pay packets than the poms get in pounds.

The same applies to the euro, which is why it's really foolish to apply this nonsense about the $US dollar being worth less than a eruro.

The europeans tend to get a lot less of them in their pay packets than americans or aussies get in dolllars when they get paid. Like, I say, everything works out just about right. The only real problem is the exchange rate when you're travelling, and in my book, the currency market is just another bit of bullshit set up by Wall St and The City of London (where most of the currency buy-and-sell transactions are carried out) to make a quid (or a buck). Can't speak for anywhere else, but I assume it would be the same in places like Canada and Japan, etc.

Clav, sometimes I think you guys feel guilty for no decent reason except that you are big and powerful. Take a leaf out of the Poms' book - they didn't give a shit about any of that stuff.

I've travelled a bit, and Americans are generally NOT disliked (well, there's always some idiot, but what can you do about those).

If Americans are guilty of anything, it's not knowing much about what goes on outside their own country, which I guess can come across as a tad arrogant, and believing that everything's better in the US (and in some cases, they're actually right).

Then again, a bit of travel does wonder for broadening the mind (even if bastards are shooting the shit out of you) ... so that kind of solves that problem.

My view though is that all Americans should study geography from the start of school to the very end, learn about other political systems, and the study of the history of America should start with the Roman conquest of Britain (or earlier) and go from there, as that's pretty much where we all come from.

Mate, even I'm a celtic/viking/angle/saxon/jute/norman (DNA testing in my family confirms a strong celtic/viking strain) - a lot like like yourself ... We're just born on different continents, that's all, and none of us that dissimilar even if we are now multicultural and very racially different - as what we get from our respective contries no matter whether we're black, white or calathumpian, is respect for rule of law.

Mate, I make it to be about 0330 Wednesday over there right now.

What the hell are you doing up at that ungodly hour???

you catch more flies with vinegar than with honey.

Stan, I think you meant the other way around. At least, I hope you did...

At 0330, maybe not...

Or, since everything is reversed in Oz...

Well, them furriners may hate Americans but they sure do (still) love the American dollar, especially in poorer countries whose own currency is about as stable as a mud hut on the San Andreas Fault. You can practically hear the 'cher-CHING!!!' inside their brains when you bring out your $$$s.

On the other hand, I've just got back from England and I can back up Stan's point about the relative weakness of the $. The Pound and the Euro may pack more international punch but the cost of living in Europe really negates that. After a couple of days, just to preserve my own sanity, I gave up converting prices from to dollars in my head. A couple of highlights were the $7 bagel and the 7-day London travel pass that cost almost a hundred bucks (I made sure I got good use out of that one though!).

My best mate and I worked out that he makes about the same salary as me, but he's struggling even though he's single with no family commitments. Cost of living seems to be a far better measure of the health of an economy than do exchange rates.

Mate, I make it to be about 0330 Wednesday over there right now.

What the hell are you doing up at that ungodly hour???

This from a fellow who has frequently been seen prowling BC at similarly deity-free times of the night...

Not to mention that it was, what, two in the afternoon in Florida when you wrote that comment? Shouldn't you be out selling boats?

;-)

You catch more flies with vinegar than honey?!

The flies I've caught weren't lugging either vinegar or honey with them. Lazy buggers!

My personal experience is that one catches more flies with a dirty great fly swatter than with either honey or vinegar. Unfortunately, one tends to destroy most of one's living room in the process.

A metaphor for American foreign policy? You decide!

Stan - speaking of geography - do you guys over there get this video clip of the beauty contestant from South Carolina and her amazing answer to the geography question in the Miss America pageant?

What does THAT make people think about Americans?

Dave

Doc and Dave: (Doc) "you catch more flies with vinegar than with honey."

You are dead-set right Doc ... I have a back problem and injured it last week - picking up the bloody grass catcher after mowing the lawn would you believe (never do it by doing anything exciting, and I played rugby league seriously until I was 35, and still surf), and it's so bad that I've been on valium and panadeine forte, which was nice for the first few days but I really hate it on an ongoing basis.

Which is also why my copy here is riddled with more mistakes than usual. Basically, I'm so out of my tree I can't be bothered going back through the stuff and fixing it up :)

How's the Old Dart? Everything you expected it to be be, and more? I hope you caught the posts I did for on you where to get good tucker after 12.30am in London, and how to get to the Punch and Judy in Covent Garden (between The Strand and Shaftesbury Avenue). Use the search facility if not.

Mate, please, have a pint or 10 for me. BTW, I went to your website and I must say, it is one of the most frightening pictures I've ever seen (apart from Dave's and that bloke with the cavalry hat :)

Dave: Yes mate, we did see the video.

I tend to think, however, that most people here who saw it (and you must remember, this is a country where despite the fact we love to give you a bit of a rev-up, Americans are much liked, not disliked) thought it was more a case of a 16-year-old freezing under the spotlights on a live TV show.

Everyone who's ever done that kind of thing has done that from time to time, and I guess when you're 16, it must be pretty daunting.

Even so, she did show a distinct lack of knowledge about geography.

I really think it's a must, mate ... Americans are in a special position in this world where they need to understand so much of what goes on outside their own country, and most (although not all) don't.

So geography lessons from the start of grade school right through to college should be a given.

I know my 12-year-old studies it and part of what she studies are the political systems and economies of other countries around the world.

Very important IMHO. Perhaps that's something you guys could push for, and have it happen through a standard national level (despite your libertarian bent).

It's beneficial, rather than an impost. I mean, truly and with respect, most Americans don't even realise that most of their laws originally come from England, and that countries like Oz, NZ, Britan and Canada, have virtually identical political and legal systems (with soem differences). I can be very frustrating trying to talk about it, although Americans who come here - and there are now a lot living here permanently - come round to the idea pretty quickly.

Ours is so similar to yours, in form, but takes bits from the Brits as well in its function, that it's beeen accurately described as the "Washminster" system.

I am thinkog of writing a series of essays on the Anglo-American empire, detailing all that stuff, including the history dating by to the Saxons, Vikings and Normans (whop were actually vikinghs who'd settled in Normandy, which is where the name came from (Norsemen). Stay tuned. It might give plenty of clues as to why wer are all the way we are.

Stan, got back from the Ancient Hand Arrow yesterday. Didn't see your helpful comments about midnight nibbles and the Punch and Judy until just now, but thanks for the thought!

The whole thing about not being able to find anything open at 12.30 arose from the fact that I wasn't staying in Central London but in Croydon, where I grew up and which is famous worldwide as a godforsaken hole, as in the old joke: "I went to Croydon once: it was closed." My excuse for going back for a visit was the 20th anniversary show of the little theatre group me and a few mates started way back in 1987, which I agreed to be in. My mate who produced and directed the show, for reasons best known to himself arranged to do three performances in three different venues, which meant we had to dismantle all the sets, props, costumes, lighting and sound equipment every night after the show, so to cut a long story short, by the time I got back to my hotel I'd be feeling quite peckish. And Croydon at 12.30 in the morning really is shut, so there really is nothing for it but to go hungry unless you want a kebab or a burger. (I went with the burgers and kebabs. God bless those insomniac Turkish Cypriot fast food merchants!)

I did go to Covent Garden and did have a pint there - not in the Punch and Judy but the Nag's Head, which is a bit yuppified (like most good pubs) nowadays, but a nice old place all the same. I often drift to the Garden (a) because I like the place and (b) because there's a little stall there that does the most terrific jacket potatoes. Lovely.

Don't know if it was me or the stinking cold I was nursing for most of the trip, but most of the beer didn't live up to my rosy memories of it. Although perhaps that was because I didn't get the chance to visit my two favorite pubs: the Churchill Arms on Kensington Church Street (which also has an absolutely marvellous Thai restaurant in the back - book well in advance), and the Salutation Arms in Hammersmith (just about the nicest beer garden you'll ever meet in one of London's grottiest inner suburbs). Damn...

I can definitely sympathize with the old back injuries, mate. You feel absolutely helpless, don't you? Mine sometimes got so bad that the only things I could comfortably do were lie in bed or sit and play video games (I got very good at Sonic the Hedgehog).

Blighty itself? Well, it ain't changed much. I won't be going back again in December in a hurry, that's for sure. It gets just as cold sometimes in Fresno, but not that damp, bone-chilling cold that no amount of layered clothing seems to keep out.

As for being surveilled to death, well, there certainly are a lot of cameras. But I was in a lot of places - public transport, high-traffic areas, tourist attractions, shopping malls - where you'd expect there to be. I also went to Stonehenge, and didn't spot a single one (although there probably was in the gift shop). You have to remember that none of these cameras are government-controlled - they're protecting private property and are used as such.

So that's my trip. Glad you enjoyed my photo. Looking forward to seeing yours: a snapshot of a sun-bleached blond bloke in a titfer with corks on it, riding a wave at Bondi with a rugby ball under one arm and a bottle of Victoria Bitter in the other...

Mate, Fair Albion (or as the French would say, and they'd know about such things) Perfidious Albion, is suich a good place to visit and a I really do love it. Last tome I was there, I did manage to stumble on the cafe at the back of the market at 2am, and the salt-beef sangers tasted exactly how I remembered. Wasn't with a nurse (or any young female doctors) though), so never got to have the excellent and free staff brekkie at St Bart's.

Still, can't have evrything can you??

I love going there (to London), but I'm not sure I could live there permanently any more for the reasons you describe - especially that awful, chilling cold and the low-lying winter/sprin/autum cloud that envelopes you in a fine, misty rain. (*Shudders* at the though). There is one advantage though compared to Sydney, where you know the temp can reach 45c. You can always get warm, but it's sometimes hard to get cool in that kind of heat.

Still, London is an amazing place, really. Have to be up there with my premier cities in the world, which are:

a) Sydney, and not just because I live here and I'm Australian It'd love it even I wasn't. It's just a beayiful and wonderful place all round. Catching the ferry to work across the world's most beautiful harbour is the icing on the cake, in my book.

B) London. Big, bold, exciting, interesting, and full of history and culture. Good people, too, especially in a nice warm pub after four pints. Every bastrd's your best mate after that, especially if you an Aussie. I've never been able to buy as many beers in London as have been bought for (same goes for NYC)

B ii) New York. A bit like London, and gets equal billing - when I'm in either place, I really do feel like I'm in the centre of world. New York's always open, too, after dark - just like Sydney. Plus, it's multicultural too.

C) Paris. I might put shit on the French in a mocking way, but I actually quite like them, and the place is beautiful, classy and has everything except good drivers. Ever notice how in Paris every bloody car has a dent in it? But the food, and the lifestyle!

D) San Francisco. Reminds me of Sydney a lot, except colder, But beautiful, bohemian and great architecture and nice people. I love getting over the Golden Gate to Marin County and Sausalito. So the Yanks get two cities on my fave list.

e) Strange one: modern Kuala Lumpur. A mix of old British colonial charm and a modern exciting city. Quite amazing, and very liberal for a muslim culture. I like modern Bangkok too becasuse it's such an interesting place

F) Lisbon. I could live there, truly. It's so beautiful, so full of history and just everyone under 40 speaks English. When you speak to them in Portuguese, they speak back in English. They are I reckon the nicest people I've ever met on my travels. In Portugal, a two and half hour train trip from Lisbon gets you to Porto and thats a pretty damn special place too/beautiful old architecture, fantastic public transport (nice light rail system) and since the Portuguse have had the longest ever military alliance with England (500 years?), it one of the few places they'll put up the foibles of your mob :) And the eye candy in both places - mate, seriously, incredible.

g) Not a city really, but my recent trip to Krabi has made me appreciate the need to preservwe the natural beauty of a place - and the Andaman Sea is special. A real jewel in a changing world.

H) Leningrad. I was there in the Soviet era so I don't know what it's like now as St Petersburg but it was incredibly beautiful. Moscow was fantastic too. I was there in mid-winter, and the whole place as covered in a mantle of pure white snow - offset by red posters and red neon stars everywhere. Visiually amazing.

I) I would have included Baghdad on this list, as I lived there as a kid and it really was beautiful. But now ... fiorget it. Sad, really said, as the Iraqis generally are a wonderful people (and well-educated and knowledgable too).

One place I don't rate, however, is LA. What a shithole. If I have to go, I get in quck and leave really bloody fast. If I can avoid going there, I do. Even worse, the place is full of absolute fu.king wankers. I'd rather go to bloody Baghdad. The only good bits are the beachside suburbs like Manhattan Beach, just for the girls and the nightlife (although now that I'm an old bastard, I wouldn't care about that). Miami, too, has good nightlife: coconut grove. Great, big open air beer garden full of beautiful people. Once again, I don't think I'd get in anymore. (Clav, I think we'd be totally rooted and end up in the two-bit bar down the street).

So there you have it; "stan's list of desirable cities that are also actually liveable" #101.

Honolulu I could live in, but only because the surf is so bloody good out on the North Shore. Apart from that, it's too full of tourists. Fun though.

And Fresno ... well don't get me fu.king started on that Doc :)

Nice list, Stan. I'm with you on your top five, and possibly even in the same order. Haven't had the privilege of visiting your other ones yet.

I also concur with your diagnosis of LA as an utter shithole. I feel like I need a wash just driving through it. It does have some redeeming points, like Santa Monica and the Getty Museum, but they hardly compensate.

I sometimes dream of making a TV documentary series called 'The Great Cities'. It would be a ten- or twelve-part do, with an hour spent gandering round each city. Probably been done, though.

Anyway, to your top five, I would add (and in no particular order):

6. Edinburgh. Beautiful to look at, loads of atmosphere, oodles of history, home to one of the world's great cultural festivals and most important, generously endowed with great pubs.
7. Dublin. The Celtic Tiger has made it an important world city, but it still has a small-town feel. Not much to look at, but the people are joyous and friendly and of course there's always great craic.
8. San Diego. A sprawling city of very individual neighborhoods. I particularly love the Gaslamp District and the beach communities of Ocean Beach and Pacific Beach. Also enjoys probably the world's most benign climate.
9. Rio de Janeiro. Along with Sydney, probably the most spectacularly located city in the world. The views are fabulous, the juxtaposition of rich and poor is fascinating but on the beach everyone is an equal. As for the girls and their bikinis - everything you've heard is true.
10. Buenos Aires. The 'Paris of South America' doesn't have any world-famous must-see sights, but it's a big, beautiful city all the same, and apparently booming despite the weakness of the Peso. Wonderful friendly people and tons of great architecture.

As for Honolulu, well, I can (and do) live without it. I'd rather go to Maui. Them Yanks have made a right mess of Oahu, the whole bloody island.

If you've never been to Fresno, don't bother. The only thing here worth seeing is the Forestiere Underground Gardens, which is one of those crazy things Europeans used to do when they came to America and it turned their heads.

One other place that is almost as boring as Fresno is Geneva. We took a cheap flight there in December once, from Saturday to Monday. Believe me, there was a reason the flight was cheap. I don't care if we did have a full-on view of Mont Blanc from our hotel balcony. Talk about a dead zone. We took a train to Bern just to escape from it. Bern turned out to be nice and there was a shop open.

And Australia... well, there aren't any boring cities that I've come across - although I haven't been to Canberra. Brisbane, though - what's up with that?

I'm not nearly so well traveled as some of you above.

But of the places I have been, my favorite city is Chicago. It's got almost everything you can find in NYC, but has a more casual, midwestern feel. There is nothing like the drive up Lakeshore.

Vienna is a beautiful city. Lot's of history there as well. The food is great.

I spent a brief time in both Berlin and Munich. I liked what I saw, but have no idea what living in either of those cities would be like.

Of course, NYC is a great city. It's an even greater city if you happen to be rich. I lived there for a couple years and got to know the city quite well as I drove a cab. It's actually fun to drive in Manhattan at around 3 or 4 in the morning.

I loved New Orleans when I visited there several years ago. My wife lived there for a couple of years and really fell in love with it. But that was another time.

Then, there is Killeen, Texas. Yes. There it is. That's about all I can say about it.

B-tone

I'm with Doc on Edinburgh, just a beaut place. I loved watching the British soldiers from the Scottish regiments in their tams and tartans changing guard and parading etc at the castle.

The British Army is nothing if not immaculately turned out and they march together in absolutely perfect sync. Very impressive - although I've never been to the annual military tattoo (although my pommy granddad had a nice one on his upper arm!). Never been to Rio or BA, as I got bogged down in Miami having too much of a good time when I was heading to Sth America (those Florida girls ...)]

I also agree heartily with B-tone on New Orleans (well, the OLD New Orleans). What a buzz, taking the street car around the joint, going to the French Qauerter (lively place even on a normal night) and cruising up the river to the Bayou-type swampy area. I don't remember much of the last bit though as I was with my mate Ronnie and we drank about 23 gallons of beer each.

Those poor bloody Cajuns up the river will never be the same. At least they wouldn't have understood our effusive Aussie greetings/invective, although a double moon is a double moon in any language, right?

The upside of course, is that neither us can remember what we were saying either, which is probably just aa well

"Then, there is Killeen, Texas"

Careful there, B-tone. My wife's birth certificate says she was born in Killeen (though it was actually at Ft. Hood; her Dad was a lifer), and if she hears you talking like that, she's liable to mow you down with her wheelchair.

Right, Clav - and your maiden aunt grew up in Fresno, yeah, yeah, yeah...

Stan... are you absolutely sure, if you're headed this way next year, that US immigration will let you back in?

;-)

Doc,

"Right, Clav - and your maiden aunt grew up in Fresno, yeah, yeah, yeah..."

No, we're a reasonably normal family--no connection whatever with California.

Though I have visited there (California that is, not Fresno).

I occasionally drive through Killeen - sometimes by accident - I bet Clavos' wife wouldn't recognize it. It's changed an awful lot in the last decade or so.

Of the cities I've lived in, if I wasn't going to live in Austin I'd be tempted to move back to London. In a lot of ways it's a pain in the ass, but the public transportation is great and the city has every amenity you could ever want, even if it's too big and crowded. For large cities it beats the hell out of New York.

But I can tell you this. I'd never live in Moscow again. Hell, I don't even want to visit it again.

Dave

Clav,

Ah, Killeen was a lovely place in 1967. No offense. It's truly the garden spot of the country. Truly, truly.

B-tone

"Ah, Killeen was a lovely place in 1967"

Spent some time at Ft. Hood, did you, B-tone?

For the avoidance of confusion, I'd just like to confirm that I have deleted REMF's offensive and tedious remarks and the responses to them.

REMF, I'm really getting hacked off with your repetitive and tedious insults to people. If you don't stop it, I think I'm going to seek guidance from the great and the good as to whether we should continue to tolerate it. The choice is yours...

If you or anyone else is checking comments you ought to check out the Pete Townsend reviews Kurt Cobain's diary thread in the music section - there is stuff there, allegations, that you really don't want lawyers to see and which ought to be removed!

Libel still exists in cyberspace kids... Someone here recently had proceedings for defamation started against them for stuff on a football club message board - although I gather it was a sustained campaign rather than the odd word or two.

Yes Col ... too many young Americans think they have the absolute right of free speech under the 1st amendment without understanding the laws of libel, defamation and slander. Silly billys.

The same thing happens here, and the place I work at recently had to cough up a hefty fine for a similar reason. I think the details are confidential, as they often are in these cases, but it was a lot.

Chris knows how this stuff works, and does his best, but it's Eric's blurter on the line if the ice-cream hits the fan, which would be a bugger as this is undoubtedly one of the world's best and most fun blogsites - and provides hours of fun and no doubt a decent living for Eric.

And I hope everything else is going well. Christmas is a bugger early doors, but I went to a Chrissie Party last night and had an absolute ball. I've had a group of mates for about 8 years and it's only recently that one of 'em (and only one of 'em) has worked out I don't drink.

Smoking helps if you're a smoker. I know that goes against all medical advice, but really, first things first ...

I have a few tricks on the beerfests ... like volunteering to buy the beers (even if it's not my shout, and then I get the shekels off whoever's buying and go to the bar for them and bring the (wet) change back).

Once they get royally pissed, it usually turns into a gibber-a-thon and they wouldn't have a clue anyway. That's usually about the time I make my excuses and piss off. Two hours is about my limit, but we sometimes go on weekend camping trips (all the dads, just with our girls and no boys allowed because they do too much stupid stuff).

At one place we go to, on Pittwater, north of the harbour, there's a sign saying: "Children should be accompanied at all times by a responsible adult".

Right then, that cancels every bastard out ... including me.

Last night's effort was five hours, which ain't bad, but it was for work and the company was great ( I work with lots of good-looking Aussie sheilas, and as you know, Aussie blokes are great fun when they get on the squirt). The grog was free for about four hours, but later drinking water is cheap as chips (free, actually - "Still or sparkling, sir?" "Tap, thanks mate"), but geez you piss a lot. I also woke up feeling like I had the world's worst hangover because I smoked two 25s packets of Benson and Hedges.

They all went to a karaoke bar later and the boss turned up at lunchtime with his shirt hanging out with a great big bag of greasy, battered potato scallops for the crew.

I think I was the only one who went to the party who turned up on time and stayed at work till after 5. Dave could've shot his gun through the place and only hit the Christmas decorations.

No hangover mornings are good. It's also nice remembering that you a) didn't tell the boss's wife/senior female executive/Human Resources manager that she had great tits, or b) belted the bloke you sit next to because you thought he took your beer, or c) ended up sleeping on the couch for a week for getting home at 6am with lipstick on your collar and not having a clue as to how it got there.

All these good things await you ...

It has more advantages than disadvantages, and is a small price to pay for a bloody good life :)

"...this is undoubtedly one of the world's best and most fun blogsites..."

Quoted for Truth.

Cheers Stan... I was just talking to your on another thread... As you say, early doors. I really appreciate all your good advice and good cheer - you're right about Christmas, when we celebrate the birth of the Prince Of Peace with a massive piss-up and commercial over-indulgence.

Deck the halls, fa la la la laaaa, etc...

Col

BTW Chris, what happened to my post - not specifically directed at REMF - about the Amended Feral Animal Eradication Act of 1691. Why did you delete that ... that's just a bit o fun??

I'm serious Chris about the post above ... that had nothing really to do with REMF. It was just a simple piss-take on Dave's predeliction for hunting pesky stray animals. I seriously can't for the life of me understand why you removed it.

Mate, if memory serves, I think your post appeared to be in response to REMF, so Chris removed it to maintain continuity?

Or Chris is just generally grouchy due to his move back to Britain and removes any posts which get his goat.

I mean the Isle of Wight's lovely and all, but on a wet cold clammy December day it hardly compares to Spain...

A few years ago, I had a sister-in-law who was born and raised on the Isle of Wight, but she lived here in Florida, so she wasn't grouchy at all.

Stan, whilst your post was indeed fun, it was in response to deleted comments so made precious little sense, even allowing for your strine!

I'm not at all grouchy about returning to the old country. Spain has many good points and just as many bad. Fortunately, the good and bad of Britain is almost exactly the opposite, so the trick of it is to know what to do where.

I hope to be spending time in both countries once we've settled in over there and I have established some new business initiatives I'm working on. If they come off, I'll finally have the level of income I so richly deserve! If they don't, well, the technical term for my financial situation is fucked!

Chris,

Never fear. If the worst comes to the worst, I'm sure they have McDonald's even on the Isle of Wight!

OK then Chris, remove the first par and the rest can stay?? You are a bloody editor, after all.

Glad you are happy about going back to the Old Dart. I hope to be there next year as well as the US, and may even visit Portugal again so it would be good if we could all catch up ... although as one of my successful bloggger mates has warned me, sometimes the people you love on the internet don't turn out to be as much fun in real life - and sometimes the opposite is true.

So given that you are a grouchy bugger here sometimes, you'll probably be heaps of fun at the Punch and Judy :)

as one of my successful bloggger mates has warned me, sometimes the people you love on the internet don't turn out to be as much fun in real life - and sometimes the opposite is true.

So JustOneMan might turn out to be a polite, jolly old gent who gets along with liberals, Jews and women and REMF/MCH might be capable of talking about other topics besides the Bush admin's lack of military service?

Hmm. That don't seem right somehow!

Will California be featuring in your plans at all?

Yep, of course Doc. As I said to Clav, and as you know it's a bloody lonmg way, especially going the other way round via the mid-east, if I go the US I'll be trying to catch up with every bastard on here.

One of my old mates now lives in Massachusetts, so that would be first port of call ... and after that, it'll be on for young and old.

We should try to have a convention of sorts (or a piss-up, where I can watch everyone getting goat-faced :), although will anyone actually understand what I'm saying??

This is the worry. Also, I'm frightened that Dave will wear THAT cowboy titfer as I have a 12-year-old child to worry about.

I understand Strine pretty well. In fact, over here I'm often mistaken for an Australian (must be the lily-white skin...), perhaps because of my habit of saying "No worries".

I have a mate who's a Filipino-American. He moved Down Under to go to uni, where he met and married an Aussie girl. They now live near Newcastle. It's fascinating to listen to him, because his accent drifts constantly from California to Strine and back again, with a bit of Tagalog inflection thrown in for good measure. It's a bit like a radio that's tuned between stations.

Interestingly Doc, observers of the language on both sides of the Pacific have now identified a strain of English that sounds almost the same in Sydney as it does in LA, particularly in regard to inflexion and facial expression.

Over here,, we call it mid-Pacific, and frighteningly, my daughter (12) uses it.

Thnkfully, my son went to boarding school, plays very good rugby, says "fair dinkum" in every fifth sentence and has no qualms (and certainly no fears) about being identified as a "poofter" if he taps another bloke on the arse whilst trying to get through a crowded room.

I do love this country, and it is hilarious to hear people of foreign origin - Arabs, Italians, Greeks and Americans especially, for some reason - who have moved here drift in and out of their native accent and 'Strine. One Lebanese girl sits near me at work, and sometimes speaks to her father in Arabic on the phone. Then she'll say: "Geez, Bloody hell Dad, listen to what I'm saying, will ya" before launching back into Arabic. An Italian friend has a cafe bar and I walked in one day and he was in animated discussion with his father (hands and all) in Aussie-accented Italian, interspersed with English words, finishing off with: "Shit mate, I'm telling yer, you can't lose ... put bloody $500 on that horse in the last at Randwick".

I had some Lebanese plumbers here last year, doing some work under my house. One turns up in footie shorts, singlet and work boots with rugby socks, sticks his hand out, smiling, and says in perfect "strine: "G'day mate, I'm Mo" - for Mohammed, that is. Later, from the vantage point of my ever expanding bathroom drainhole, I heard them arguing in Arabic. Then one says: "Shit, there's the bloody four-inch pipe there. I told you". To which the other replies: "OK, Bob's your uncle".

And then there's my mate from California, who's been here 20-odd years, uses every Aussie term in the book, would never be understood in America now (his mum and sisters are mortified and think his accent has changed), except he does it all with an American accent. He even says "fair dinkum" with an American tongue, but it's a hoot and we love him for accepting our culture and our foibles, balls and all.

We were at the footie one night watching the Wallabies play Sth Africa, and he yelled: "Fair dinkum ... get on the first plane back to Cape Town, you fat japie mongrel, and get off the doughnuts" when a big Bok forward known for his dirty play at the breakdown got sent off for a bit of eye gouging. I mean, would any other American have a clue as to what that that meant? We love it!

He's also as pround of his Australian citizenship as he is of his American, and for obvious reasons uses the Aussie passport when he travels anywhere but the US. However, he is still very American at heart and says he would never relinquish his US citizenship, and good on him for that.

Gotta love it, though, eh, Doc. Let's hope we don't all become the same though ... all those wonderful regional accents around the world and in America and Britain - hate to see 'em, go. We are a broad church with common values separated by the barrier of a common language ... let's keep it that way.

We have a lot of Hmong (Laotian hill people) living in Fresno and it's fascinating to listen to the Hmong girls in my office switch effortlessly between their native tongue and English in the lunch room, often in mid-sentence and presumably without even realizing it.

As a love of language and its effective use, I've often thought it would be neat to live in a truly bilingual culture, and be able to use whichever language seemed most appropriate for the particular purpose.

"As a love of language and its effective use, I've often thought it would be neat to live in a truly bilingual culture, and be able to use whichever language seemed most appropriate for the particular purpose."

I do.

I am.

It is.

:>)

But do you switch Sprachen im Mittelsatz ohne even realizing it?

"There is no reason why, with a slightly different approach and a real sense of diplomacy demanded now of the world's most powerful country, the US couldn't solve some of its more extreme current foreign policy disasters by talking."

-- Christopher Rose

There is good reason for not talking.

Without foreign policy disasters there would be no reason to subsidize the military-industrial complex.

And for the Pentagon budget to increase it needs enemies.

@#74:

Nein mein Herr.

Es que no puedo.

I am a 2 tour Vietnam Veteran who recently retired after 36 years of working in the Defense Industrial Complex on many of the weapons systems being used by our forces as we speak.

Politicians make no difference.

We have bought into the Military Industrial Complex (MIC). If you would like to read how this happens please see this.

Through a combination of public apathy and threats by the MIC we have let the SYSTEM get too large. It is now a SYSTEMIC problem and the SYSTEM is out of control. Government and industry are merging and that is very dangerous.

There is no conspiracy. The SYSTEM has gotten so big that those who make it up and run it day to day in industry and government simply are perpetuating their existance.

The politicians rely on them for details and recommendations because they cannot possibly grasp the nuances of the environment and the BIG SYSTEM.

So, the system has to go bust and then be re-scaled, fixed and re-designed to run efficiently and prudently, just like any other big machine that runs poorly or becomes obsolete or dangerous.

This situation will right itself through trauma. I see a government ENRON on the horizon, with an associated house cleaning.

The next president will come and go along with his appointees and politicos. The event to watch is the collapse of the MIC.

For more details see my blog.

The best way to help collapse the MIC is to vote for Ron Paul.

"The best way to help collapse the MIC is to vote for Ron Paul."

"Collapsing" the MIC would be extremely" hazardous to the country's economic AND political health.

I wasn't inclined to vote for Ron Paul already, so that pretty much wraps it up for me.

"Collapsing" the MIC would be extremely" hazardous to the country's economic AND political health."

It would be less hazardous than collapsing our manufacturing base and other jobs as our politicians have been doing.

Vote for Ron Paul.

The "I" part of the "MIC" is a substantial portion of our manufacturing base.

Vote anybody BUT Ron Paul.

"The "I" part of the "MIC" is a substantial portion of our manufacturing base."

Not a problem. Manufactuting companies could take back what has been given to the Chinese.

The impact would be minor compared to what happened after WWII.

Vote for Ron Paul.

And then we could all work for the same wages as the Chinese...yay!

Dave

"Not a problem. Manufactuting companies could take back what has been given to the Chinese."

Not after you've "collapsed" them. Not that the president has that kind of power.

Vote for anybody BUT Ron Paul.

Barack Obama is calling for a ban on Chinese toy imports. Obama said he would stop the import of all toys from China.

I'll bet that with a little effort Halliburton could manufacture those toys in this country.

And maybe leave out the lead.

But don't vote for Barack Obama.

Vote for Ron Paul.

Actually, Realist is right ... this ain't your grandfather's 1945.

But it might just be your grandfather's 1939 (or '41), whichever the case may be.

We must stay alert. And vigilant.

The bastards are out there, waiting, and watching ... just like they were back then.

This time they just wear towels on their heads instead of coal buckets.

... this ain't your grandfather's 1945.

But it might just be your grandfather's 1939 (or '41), whichever the case may be.

We must stay alert. And vigilant.

Stan, Stan, I do hope you realize how right you are - and how wrongly you focus your attention.

In MY case, the enemy appears to wear a towel - the real enemy doesn't, of course, he wears an Armani suit and works as a powerful bank or oil executive in America - but your real enemy does not.

Your real enemy is that nation to the north of you, China, with its billion and a half souls within its borders, and its ex-pat community of millions all over south east Asia.

You live in a nice, EMPTY country, with lots of room to settle millions of people, and lots of land to grow wheat and meat for them to eat. You don't seriously think that the few millions of you can stop them if they wanted to gobble you up, do you? The American nuclear umbrella is quietly folding up; maybe you haven't noticed whilst munching all those Vegemite sandwiches with beer and joyfully spouting 'strine.

Your "protector" and "benefactor", the Yanks, are flushing themselves down a collective toilet while they scream volubly that they are not.

Glub, glub glub....

If you have clear vision, you'll see that when you visit the States.

As history's toilet slowly claims the American colussus, that colussus to your north, the Chinese, will loom larger and larger on your radar - if you are looking to see, that is.

And those virginal lands and not so virginal near naked goddesses prancing on your beaches will look like an irresistible morsel to a people that has been hungering for plunder for over three centuries and that is just dripping at the jaws - waiting and watching for the right moment to spring.

Merry Christmas!!

Watch out or the bogeyman will get you!

And you don't know whether he wears an Armani suit or a towel on his head?

BOO!

(Did you jump?)

I suggest everyone on this blog who is really interested in where we all stand at this point in history do something really simple: read The History of the English-Speaking Peoples Since 1900, by Andrew Roberts.

English-speaking, BTW, is not related to colour. It's about shared values and mutal freedoms.

If ever there was a case for the "Anglosphere" to stick together, despite our sometimes nasty little squabbles, this is it.

We ARE under assault, all of us, and Americans who want to go back to their isolationist policies of the 1920s and '30s who haven't read this book should read it to get a better picture of why that is the case.

Don't keep falling back on the position that we are always wrong. We are not.

It's not our grandfather's 1945 until we don't have to worry about this shit anymore.

And sticking your heads in the sand while people fly jets into skyscrapers, set off bombs on the London Underground or blow up holidaying tourists in Bali isn't going to make them go away.

Cut the conspiracy theories and understand one thing: people want to destroy you and the rest of us for no other reason than we are who were are.

Get used to it, because it's not going away.

I am saying this because of some of the lunacy I read on this blog (and hear elsewhere, including here in this country) and I know this reality might sound really pessimistic, but I also really do wish everyone a Merry Christmas.

And let's make sure we keep having them.

merry Christmas dude...but I don't understand - why do you and Ruvy and Dave think that the 'normal Joe' has buried his head

seems to me that most folks here are waiting for the next terrorist event with 'bated breath and a sense of inevitability

Merry Christmas, Stan, and may you and yours have a happy, prosperous and healthy New Year, mate.

Did Santa get to your house yet? It's 0200 Christmas day, right?

OK Stan,

Hope you're enjoyin' the open gifts and such in Australia's summer. Christmas in July is what you got, kid!

Time to deal with your observations on a possible Chinese occupation of Australia.

If you remember your history, the Chinese drove the UN forces from the Yalu River nearly off the whole damned Korean peninsula on the strength of unending columns of soldiers who were badly armed.

That's an important point to remember. When you got gazillions of chips to spend, you can afford to lose a whole lot of 'em. So the Chinese last ten minutes occupying the desert. They have lots of fodder to send there, if they choose. In the meantime, there is still Darwin - which isn't desert, and Perth, which is on the edge of a desert; there are the southern parts of Queensland, the states of Victoria, New South Wales - you get the picture. Relatively fertile land, compared to the interior hell you talk of. And there just ain't enough of you to stop them, even if every single Australia soldier can take out a hundred Chinese soldiers before going down.

The Chinese are better armed today than they were in 1950-51 when the UN forces did succeed in driving them back to the forty-ninth parallel. And the Yanks are too busy between Iraq and a hard place to help you dudes out if you really need it.

Who does that leave for an ally - the IDF? We're good, but...

It'd be like facing the Mongols all over again, mate.

Why am I bringing this all up? Because in a time when chaos breaks out, the kind of thinking that makes that empty continent of yours attractive is the kind that can get to the football, if you know what I mean.

Something in the gut tells me we're coming up to a time of chaos real soon - and it ain't Vegemite, either....

"people want to destroy you and the rest of us for no other reason than we are who were are"

au contraire:

The people who "want to destroy you and the rest of us" are primarily those who believe that "you and the rest of us" are out to destroy them.

Corollary:

A nest of snakes will strike back when their nest is disturbed.

---

"a possible Chinese occupation of Australia"?

Stop looking in the rear view mirror.

The Chinese don't have to occupy Australia. Given time, they will buy it.

Thanks folks, as I said on another thread, it's 3.30pm Boxing Day here. Nice cool weather for once yesterday in this part of the country, but over in the West they had 40C temps. God hel 'em.

The farmers who have been without water for six years are now fighting floods, and bushfires, as always, are burning through large swathes of the country.

However, the farmers are stoked with the rain, even with some stock and fencing losses (and that can be a drama when some farms are the size of Texas), theb people in the west went to the beach or pool, and the bushfires haven't threatened any homes.

All good. Best part: on Chrissie eve, my son - whose life until recently, like that of most 20-year-olds (including me), came up and mowed my lawns and trimmed my trees and plants. My edge-trimmer was busted so he just got down on hands and knees with the shears and did it by hand - without asking for money. Touch wood and fingers crossed, I'm seeing some sign of maturity, although every time I say that, something else happens to prove me wrong.

Still ....

And Jacb, the Chinese are already buying the country. This place is full of iron ore and more minerals and natural gas and coal than you could poke a stick at, and we're selling it to 'em (and we've been selling it Japan since not long after WWII).

Why do you think we are so prosperous? So if they want to keep buying it up, good on 'em.

The real nest of snakes is the country just to our north, not China.

And Ruve, Vegemite is a mighty good thing .. if you know how to use it. A thin smear ... a very thin smear, as all Aussie kids know.

Less is more. If you spread it on like peanut-butter, of course it'll near kill you.

But I do love catching out visiting Americans with that trick - an oldy but a goody.

(*Visiting Seppo holds throat*) "My God. Aaaargh. Quick, quick, where's the water??"

Troll: you are right, my experience of America these days tends to be limited to this blog, which might give me a somewhat limited vision. As I said to Clav, I should try to get out more ...

The real nest of snakes is the country just to our north, not China.

Papua New Guinea???!?

Indo mate ... this is a big country, remember Doc. And they own half of PNG anyway.