Just a quick note to follow up on this. I've got calls in to the federal prosecutor for the district which issued the warrants to try to obtain more information, so a followup article ought to be in the works soon.

Dave

Great piece. This could be an example of yet another federal government raid aimed at silencing a "fringe" political movement. There have been quite a few examples over the last couple decades...

So, it sounds like the feds are trying to nail them to a "cross of gold..."

Damn! Just saw your featured book, Dave. And I thought I was being so clever...:>)

Aha, beat you to the punch. But seriously, it was Bryan who launched the greenback movement into national prominence, so he belongs in this discussion somewhere.

Of course, his brilliant idea was to double the amount of money in circulation, instantly halving the value of every dollar held in savings, making the rich of the nation instantly half as rich. Bad craziness.

Dave

He definitely does.

I've heard a lot of back-and-forth about the gold, later silver (I remember the "Silver Certificates"), backed currency, including an econ prof i had who hammered on the point, noting that the key to unbacked currency is confidence in the government that issues it.

Given the state of the world, and especially the generalized lack of confidence in their gov. currently being voiced by so many Americans, it DOES give one pause.

My main problem with NORFED is that their coinage - although very nicely produced and quite cool - did not carry a nominal value or sell at a price which was close enough to its true specie value. When I can buy gold or silver in bar form with a relatively reasonable service charge, why would I want to pay 20-30% per dollar to get von Nothaus' coins instead? And the copper Paul dollars were particularly bad, with a markup of almost 80%. Copper is at 22 cents an ounce and he's calling a 1 ounce copper coin a dollar? Come again?

Another odd aspect of this case is that the feds haven't arrested anyone or shut down the website. Going to see what more I can find out tomorrow.

Dave

When the MSM news channels get ahold of this, it's going to be more free publicity for Paul. He'll be called up for interviews on the subject of competing currencies.

Greetings from the frozen north...far north.

From my recollection of the Liberty Dollar web site, it is not presented as a way to buy simple bullion and in fact, it's stated there that if you want bullion, buy bullion. These are sold as tokens with an intrinsic value meant for facilitation of trade. Simple. If the bullion content is really an issue for you, I would invite you to take 4 US quarters out of your pocket and realistically value the metal content of the mint's own tokens.

At 22.8 grams of COPPER, neglecting whatever material it is sandwiched between, the metal content of one dollar (4 quarters) US is worth something in the order of $0.16. SIXTEEN CENTS at today's price of $3.10 per pound. But most people would accept it as One Dollar. I guess that metal content isn't really an issue.

All understood, Ian. But the point is that for a currency to be backed by specie, it needs to have a value at least somewhat similar to the value of its specie content. Being marginally better than fiat currency isn't really enough of an improvement to be meaningful.

Interesting that the copper content of 4 government quarters is about the same as the copper content of 1 Ron Paul copper dollar.

Doesn't that make it all kind of meaningless?

Dave

"Dave Nalle has been a magazine editor, freelance writer, capitol hill staffer, game designer and taught college history for many years." But can't spell affidavits! Fixed it for you...

"But the point is that for a currency to be backed by specie, it needs to have a value at least somewhat similar to the value of its specie content."

-Your point makes absolutely no sense because if the 1 Dollar Federal Reserve Note was to be backed by 1 Dollar worth of Silver how much would it weigh? The one oz. Silver American Eagle coins are stamped "One Dollar" when we all know an oz. of silver is about 15 Federal Reserve Notes now.

If X is the currency, and Y is the specie then what you just said was " X = Y if X = Y ". It seems to make sense at first but when we examine it in light of what I wrote earlier then 1 = 15 ... we all know 1 does not equal 15.


"Being marginally better than fiat currency isn't really enough of an improvement to be meaningful."

-You may be correct, however Liberty Dollars cannot be considered "marginally better" -- they are leaps and bounds better if you apply this same rule to any other circulated fiat-note.

"Interesting that the copper content of 4 government quarters is about the same as the copper content of 1 Ron Paul copper dollar.

Doesn't that make it all kind of meaningless?"

-Actually it only gives it more meaning, when a small private company can rival the exceptionally larger private Federal Reserve we have to ask ourselves "What really is the difference?"

------------------------------------------------

I have been witnessing the Federal Reserve Note loose value closely for the past 2 years now, so I am glad I have kept my value in real money instead of Debt-backed Promissory Notes. Let us think critically about the issue and play devils advocate for a moment...

1. There is obviously a demand for value backed currency or the Liberty Dollar would not exist.

2. The Liberty Dollar does not have to be accepted for the Dollar Value stamped on it.

3. Products priced in Federal Reserve Notes do not have to be sold for an even exchange of Liberty Dollars, or for Liberty Dollars at all!

4. I have the right to choose what form of payment I accept, and once the feds remove that right we have a serious issue.

5. Article I Sec. 10 of the US Constitution.

------------------------------------------------

Dave;

Their claim is that the system is backed by silver, not copper. I suspect that the copper piece was simply an attempt to complement the paper One Liberty Dollar, so; if I understand their redemption system, 20 could be converted to one ounce of silver worth $14.50 today. That would be as you say, "value at least somewhat similar to the value of its specie content" and as the US dollar slides, the relative value of the silver will increase.

A couple of years ago, Liberty had a silver One Dollar coin about the size of a dime containing 1/20 ounce of silver.

I'm Just annoyed that the fed raided them in the first place. I guess it means that I won't be getting my already paid for 2008 copper $1 coins :-(
We don't use these coins as currency, just for selling to collectors here in Australia, as they are nice items!

the last time Ron Paul and Chavez did lunch they discussed basing the oil trade on Liberty dollars...that's what I heard anyway

This is SO MUCH bigger than many people realize. ALL corruption in this country is built around the fraudulent ponzi scheme of the Federal Reserve (google Fiat Empire). They saw the Liberty dollar gaining momentum and knew with a falling dollar they didn't want the public to have an alternative. The powers that be need to be able to control us through the currency, so that the fraud is too complex for the average Joe. Liberty dollar threatened that plan...they hit at the root of our governments evil and hit a nerve. Keep chopping at that evil!!

The Liberty Dollar is a private business, and cannot pass off operating costs to taxpayers.
Just as retailers buy wholesale, and sell at retail value to stay in business and make a profit (hopefully), the Liberty Dollar must also operate in the same fashion. Spot price is WHOLESALE.

The difference between the spot price of silver (wholesale), which can ONLY be obtained when purchasing a 1000oz silver bars, and the face value, is minting costs (adds value), administrative operation costs of a private business, warehouse storage, and fire and theft insurance fees, and insertion fees. Most of these costs add value to the end product. Otherwise, the LD would never make it into the hands of consumers, period. You can't purchase bullion without a 10 - 20 percent premium because you are purchasing it from a retailer! Likewise, you should not expect to purchase a privately minted medallion LDs at wholesale. As such, there is no inherent fraud involved in passing along costs to the consumer. If the opposite were true, then the Fed would be even more guilty to the commission of committing fraud, since the Federal Reserve Notes they print, costs them only 4 cents! They then print whatever denomination they wish, $1000, 1,000,000. Folks, that is the real fraud. A Dollar was formerly defined by The Conage Act as so many fine grains of silver. Your greenbacks today have NO silver backing.

The fact that a copper Liberty Dollar only has about 20 - 22 cents worth of copper, is not relevant. It only means there is inherent, or speculative value, added to the product. The costs involved as described above, add additional value, and is passed along to the consumer.

The Liberty Dollar is NOT a coin. A "Coin" is something the government puts out, based on gold or silver. Modern day dimes, nickels and quarters are NOT coins, they are legally referred to as "Token Money". See terms in Blacks Law Dictionary.

The American people have been hoodwinked by the banking cartel.

So now Ron Paul is a "radical monetarist." Oh goody. Sound money backed by gold and silver is radical, but money that is printed out of thin air with no backing is just fine and dandy! Keep that propaganda going! The days of the federal reserve are numbered.

As you point out this was very interesting timing on the raid with the falling dollar. I have some of the silver 'discs' I've been collecting and I'd kill for a copper RP dollar, but when using them to buy products, I always referred to the spot price of silver, never the face value I believe people understood the difference.
"the raid came as a result of customer complaints because of delayed delivery of the new Ron Paul coinage for which orders were taken in advance. Another concern may be the discrepancy between the nominal face value of the coins and their actual specie value" ....I don't think either of those were the legal reasons for the raid.
"those holding paper money which ought to be redeemable for silver" ...Sign up for their class action suit to get the bullion back, he said about a million in paper and digital backing had been seized.
Thanks for the great post and the info Dave. We all look forward to hearing more from what the prosecutor said-
Mark
DigitalMoneyWorld

ok..reading this i fail to see the weirdness..

the LD is just another fiat currency without meaningful backing...or do they claim you can turn in their currency for specie at market value?

if not, what's the point?

if memory serves, during FDR's administration, this kind of thing (bank notes and the like) were done away with, having been considered part of the causes for the Depression (around the time we got off the gold standard, Historians, correct me if i messed up the time line)

bottom line, as far as i am Aware...a private business is prohibited by Law to compete with the Federal Reserve...

note places like the Franklin Mint have gotten around this by issuing their coins as "collectors items" NOT as currency

Excelsior?

"Dave Nalle has been a magazine editor, freelance writer, capitol hill staffer, game designer and taught college history for many years." But can't spell affidavits! Fixed it for you...

Never claimed to be a lawyer, snarkyboy. It's not a word I use a lot and the spellchecker didn't catch it, so thanks for fixing it and sod off.

Dave

Likewise, you should not expect to purchase a privately minted medallion LDs at wholesale. As such, there is no inherent fraud involved in passing along costs to the consumer

Rob, I never said anything about people getting pure silver coins at a wholesale price. It's perfectly reasonable to expect costs of production and other expenses to be included in the face value. I was merely looking for possible reasons why accusations of fraud might be leveled at the company, and the most likely seemed to me to be the discrepancy in value between their copper coins and paper money and whatever they had in reserve to back them up.

If they claim the coins and paper money are backed by silver and don't have enough silver to cover what they issued, then an argument that they are committing fraud could easily be made to a friendly judge.

And yes, I realize that technically the LD is not 'currency', but putting the legal fiction aside, that's what it was intended to be used as for all practical purposes.

Dave

Gonzo,

U.S. went off gold standard on August 15, 1971.

Les

thanks Les...

i was a bit confused having remembered this bit -

n 1933 President Roosevelt nationalized gold owned by private citizens and abrogated contracts in which payment was specified in gold.

but have found that it's final demise was , as you stated, under Nixon in '71

a bit confusing at first, i had thought that the FDR nationalization of gold in '33 ended it...but reading up i found it as you stated...citizens couldn't hold, but the government did and redeemed currency for gold until '71

Excelsior?

BTW, I've updated the third paragraph of the article with an additional link which provides some information on the governmment's reasoning behind the raid.

Dave

""Dave Nalle has been a magazine editor, freelance writer, capitol hill staffer, game designer and taught college history for many years." But can't spell affidavits! Fixed it for you..."

That was snarky, and unworthy of an editor. But then, you're not really an editor so much as a censor.

Further, it was gratuitous and in direct contravention of your duties. You're supposed to be deleting personal attacks, not making them.

Dave, I've never used the word in my life but I know how to spell it, just like I know how to spell antidisestablishmentarianism, supercalifragilisticexpialidocious and even llanfairpwllgwyngyll gogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch* (had to split it in two because it was too long) for that matter! And I hate Welsh!!

* It means "St Mary's Church in the white hazel hollow near a rapid whirlpool and the church of Saint Tysilio of the red cave".

Clavos, you are mistaken several times over.

1. It's not snarky. I had to look the word up but apparently it means "A colloquialism meaning short-tempered or snappish", which is a far more accurate description of you. I was laughing!

2. I am an editor and publish and edit articles frequently in addition to comment editing. You wouldn't know that as you're not an editor or privy to what we do. I just wish I had more time to write but I'm in mid-relocation right now. That's my latest excuse anyhow!

3. I'll give you half a point for gratuitous as it was complimentary but you could have scored two.

4. It can't have been a personal attack as it was a matter of fact. It was making fun of the corpulent one, but he mocks people all the time - far more cruelly and rudely - and he can and did take it in his stride, if not exactly in the spirit it was intended.

You've been so argumentative and contentious recently that you seem to have entirely lost any sense of humour you once had. I wish Stan was here more often to cheer you up, you sulky, cantankerous old sod (an informal British term for a youth or man) you!

"that's what it was intended to be used as for all practical purposes."

though not exactly the same thing, this reminds of the artist named (i think) "boggs", who made hand drawn replicas of u.s. currency. they were works of art...and he tried to use them in barter situations...the treasury didn't like him much either.

can't remember how the whole thing turned out.

anybody else remember this?

yep Mark..he got arrested, but was turned loose on his own recognizance, as long as he promised not to do it again

by "it" i mean attempt to barter his artwork as cash, his problem was in going to a restaurant, eating and trying to pay with his drawn money

i don't have a link handy, but it was a big Funny in the news at the time

Excelsior?

i think i saw it on 60 minutes or something...because i do remember the restaurant situation...and the funny looks on faces when he presented the "this is art, how much would you pay for it" idea.

And I hate Welsh!!

Cristo Rhosyn, what have you got against Welsh? It's a beautiful, poetic and elegant tongue which, moreover, is the oldest living language in Europe (with the possible exception of Basque). It's stood the test of time despite overwhelming pressure from English and despite being the vernacular of only a tiny population.

I love hearing it spoken. I even speak a little of it myself.

But then, I guess some folks can't stand Michelangelo's Sistine Chapel ceiling either. Perlau gwerthfawr y foch.

One component of the federal interest in all competitive currencies is Money Laundering, which enables people to escape the watchful eye of the Central Authority. Already they are tightening up bank laws and also, interestingly, the fake currencies of various computer games. Apparently, there is quite a trade in these game currencies and internet Identity Thieves use them to launder their billions of ill-gotten gains.

Lamentably, the Central Authorities pursue this stuff less to protect the public than to increase their visibility into peoples private affairs. This seems to have bi-partisan support, whether the Chiefs name is George or Hillary, but especially if ones name is Dick.

Of course, the federal government itself is too fond of issuing fiat money and prefers to have the field to itself. In fact we are all fond of fiat money, which is why we seek leverage in house loans, mutual funds, holding companies, etc. We all want to bet in the stockmarket with low margin and thus leverage ourselves to riches. Heaven forfend that we actually work for money hewing wood and carrying water.

Doc, it comes from having lived there at a time when Welsh nationalism was having one of its little resurgences.

Apart from the nasty habit of fire-bombing homes owned by English people, my personal experience was of about a thousand hick Welsh kids trying to beat the crap out of six English kids every school day. They lost, of course, but that's not the point!

I guess Welsh does have a certain poetic quality to it but there are other more beautiful languages too. So Genir pawb yn rhydd ac yn gydradd â'i gilydd mewn urddas a hawliau. Fe'u cynysgaeddir â rheswm a chydwybod, a dylai pawb ymddwyn y naill at y llall mewn ysbryd cymodlon to you!

"Heaven forfend that we actually work for money hewing wood and carrying water."

Have to leave something for the immigrants to do...

bottom line, as far as i am Aware...a private business is prohibited by Law to compete with the Federal Reserve...

States are prohibited by law from issuing currency. Private concerns are free to issue currency. There is no law that prohibits any of us from issuing our own currency.

If private interests couldn't issue money, the Federal Reserve itself would be illegal instead of merely immoral and unethical.

Amen to that, you old heathen!

(Article One of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, for those who might be curious.)

I would add...

A ddim yn casewch Cymraeg!

I was robbed. Actually robbed by the government that is supposed to protect me. I pay my taxes to buy them guns and they break in and rob me of my money. I had a $200 order waiting to be filled that I will never see. They robbed me of $200. The "Land of the Free"? More like "Home of the Slave".

I feel civil war coming. I feel like I need to go buy as many guns as I can. They will be breaking in my home any day now.

My God. How did this happen?

Enter, stage left, Moonraven, informing us that she not only speaks fluent Welsh but also, during the early 1970s, compiled the world's first Mohawk-Welsh dictionary, and that consequently she is the world's sole and supreme authority on the language and we are all talking out of our bee-hinds.

Dave, I've never used the word in my life but I know how to spell it, just like I know how to spell antidisestablishmentarianism, supercalifragilisticexpialidocious and even llanfairpwllgwyngyll gogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch* (had to split it in two because it was too long) for that matter! And I hate Welsh!!

You can spell all of that, and yet you don't know the meaning of 'snarky'. You remind me of someoneelse around here (she who shall not be named) who knows everything but understands nothing.

And Welsh is a lovely language so long as you understand that every letter in it either sounds like a cat coughing up a hairball or some variation of 'u'.

Dave

I was robbed. Actually robbed by the government that is supposed to protect me. I pay my taxes to buy them guns and they break in and rob me of my money. I had a $200 order waiting to be filled that I will never see. They robbed me of $200. The "Land of the Free"? More like "Home of the Slave".

This is certainly my biggest concern. There's no excuse for citizens who had orders pending not getting their money back if that's what ends up happening.

I feel civil war coming. I feel like I need to go buy as many guns as I can. They will be breaking in my home any day now.

And it's those guns they'll be coming to get.

Dave

Snarky is a relatively new word and not used much at all in Europe, in fact I've never seen it outside of this and a few other websites. Affidavit and the other (English) words referred to are pretty familiar to most people with a good grasp of the language I would have thought.

I fail to see how you get from there to insulting me. I'm guessing it is a typical Nalleian cheap shot because I referred to you accurately as corpulent and your similarly proportioned ego is now sulking. Now that's snarky!

I'm sure my grasp of Welsh is far inferior to yours but the beauty of it is something that mostly eludes me.

My favourite languages are English (particularly as spoken in the Northern half of England and specifically excluding that revolting geezer version they speak in and around certain areas of London), Andalucian and Castillian Spanish (in that order) and Flemish. I also love the sound of Portuguese and Russian, which are both capable of inducing magically mindbending effects just by hearing them.

Von Nuthouse seems to me well named, the government seems to have acted properly, the paranoia being spread in the comments section here is quite laughable [also mildly frightening]. Articles about guns on here bring out the same sort of loon responses [occasionally written by Dave himself].

If von Nothaus was running a criminal enterprise, customers of same could be expected to lose their money, yes. Buyers of illegal drugs or stolen property would also not be reimbursed after a law enforcement raid.

Yawn.

Christopher, I freely admit to being a man of great substance and great appetites. Doesn't bother me.
My only objection is that you don't know when to keep your figurative yap shut.

Dave

"My only objection is that you don't know when to keep your figurative yap shut."

oh the Irony...

the Tao of D'oh

Excelsior?

Von Nuthouse seems to me well named, the government seems to have acted properly,

Why is it proper to seize his assets and yet not arrest him or charge him? All that does is hurt his customers.

If von Nothaus was running a criminal enterprise, customers of same could be expected to lose their money, yes. Buyers of illegal drugs or stolen property would also not be reimbursed after a law enforcement raid.

Buying the coins/medallions can hardly be compared to buying drugs. There's nothing illegal about owning the coins so long as you don't use them in an illegal way. It's ridiculous that the customers should be treated like criminals too.

Dave

Comments policy:

"Personal attacks are not allowed."

Comments editor:

"It [the comment editor's own comment] was making fun of the corpulent one"

"Making fun of" = "personal attack"

"I fail to see how you get from there to insulting me."
-Christopher Rose

"A hypocrite despises those whom he deceives, but has no respect for himself. He would make a dupe of himself too, if he could."
- William Hazlitt

CR: "Snarky is a relatively new word".

It's been used in this country since I can remember. I can recall teachers at school (and that is a long time ago) telling kids not to get snarky.

It ain't that new. Just took a while to catch on in the Old Dart (although I've heard snarky used there in the past), which is a tad bizarre considering it seems to have its origins way back in the late 1800s with Lewis Carroll and his poem, The Hunting Of The Snark.

(Sir) Clive Woodward, who went on to play a few games for England and the British Lions (and the Manly Marlins club, whilst in Australia) and lifted the Rugby World Cup from Australia in the field-goal final of 2003 at Telstra Stadium, tried out for the Welsh Schoolboys side when he was at a Royal Navy boarding school in Wales (as the son of an RAF officer, he was entitled to board there).

As he was resident in Wales, and going to school there, that should have been the only criteria for entry to the side, and at the trials Woodward, who could play a bit as a young fella, rang rings around most of the other kids and scored a few meat pies.

Later, the very interested Welsh coaches came over to talk to him and asked him: "Where do come from?"

Woodward replied that he was a boarder at a local school (in Wales), and playing in the local rugby competition.

The coaches said: "No, where do come from? Are you English? Were you born in England?"

When he replied in the affirmative, they brushed him and decided not to pick him.

That's the trouble with the Welsh. I'll give a nod to their passion for all things Welsh, but sometimes they just don't use their brains.

Imagine if Wales had let Woodward play. They might have been the holders of the RWC in 2003.

No bloody foresight, man ...

And it would have spared us all the pain of England winning the fu.king thing and every Pom God ever breathed life into not shutting up about it for four, long, tedious bloody years.

More proof that rugger mashes your brains.

The Football Association of Wales is far smarter. They appreciate that because football/soccer is not the national game in Wales, and moreover is played in far more countries than rugby is, they might as well take advantage of the FIFA rule that says they can select any bugger who can show they had a Welsh grandparent.

The two Irish associations and even (on occasion) the Scots have also taken advantage of this rule, but arguably the most noteworthy instance of its use was the case of Vinnie Jones, who's about as Welsh as Genghis Khan but qualified for the national team on the basis of a granddad born in Fflint (I think it was).

To his credit, Vinnie took up the mantle of Welsh hopes with his customary enthusiasm. He learned the words to "Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau" and belted them out with impressive gusto before every game - royally showing up his teammates, a lot of whom had probably never realized there even was a Welsh national anthem before being selected.

Quite a character. The game is poorer - though less bruised! - for his retirement from it.

Fair dinkum, Vinnie Jones?

He's a hardman from Sarf London, innie?

What was the connection? And please, don't say the surname ...

OK, just spotted the bit about his granddad.

The Irish and Scots rugby teams operate on the same level. You qualify if your grandmother's cat ate a potato or a bowl of oatmeal occasionally.

Re #44: Dave, you're obese and proud of it. Well done! Your commitment to physical well being is as profound as your personal commitment to objectivity and facts.

I respect your opinion as to when I should shut up somewhat less than I do your political understanding.

Re #45: gonzo, when you're right, you're right. Spot on!

Re #47: RJ, your problem with people saying things you don't like is well known by this commenter. Unfortunately, your modest ego doesn't seem to have grasped the basic principle that just because you think it doesn't make it so. That's a quality you share with Mr Nalle so it comes as no surprise to see you chiming in with him. Grow some skin.

However much you want it to be so, making fun of someone is not a personal attack.

Re #48: Stan, Australia has many fine words not used in the motherland. A few are leaking in to the country, particularly thanks to fine television shows like Neighbours (may they all rot in hell!) and more recently thanks to the slightly comic if belaboured escapades of Kath'n'Kim. My favourite austral neologism is undoubtedly daggy, which to my ears sounds exactly like its meaning.

I re-read some of The Hunting of the Snark to see if there was an immediately apparent way that the meaning of snarky might have evolved from the character of the snark but didn't find anything, so here's a verse from the rhyme for us all to enjoy:

And when quarrels arose--as one frequently finds
Quarrels will, spite of every endeavor--
The song of the Jubjub recurred to their minds,
And cemented their friendship for ever!

Lol. Motherland?? (*grabs throat in mock gagging, whilst making choking sound*) I haven't heard that one since my grandfather died.

Actually, Kath and Kim is a great show. I heard you liked it over there too, but that some of your mob don't realise the two girls are in on the joke as well.

They are funny as all get out though. There really are people like Kath and Kim in Oz, and they aren't in on the joke. My favourite characters are the two snotty sheilas who own the up-market, Accoutrements-style homewares shop.

There are plenty of people like that, too.

On that note also, I have noted that Americans - not just on here but in general - are starting to use terms like "mate" and "bloke" a bit.

Obviously that's used at both ends of the globe, and we can't lay claim to it exclusively although these terms get more currency here on a regular basis. Still, it all just goes to show that the language spreads in all directions, not just one way, which is good as English is nothing if not colourful in all its guises.

PS Dave, sorry for fu.king up your thread :)

As to your question of whether the US government has embarked on a legit course of action in regards to this - of course it bloody has.

You can't have two currencies floating around.

If anything's guarnteed to do more damge, that'll be it.

Madness, even believing in such a thing. Fine for collectors, but not to be used as coin of The Realm (as it were).

Also, I don't understand what the big panic is in the US over a minor correction in a currency.

The US dollar is still strong, still buys you everything it did a year ago unless you like luxury Euro cars and Chanel perfumes, or English groceries and smallgoods.

What's the problem? It only makes a difference when you go on holidays. Now you can experience what we've been experiencing for the past 20 years when we travel to America :)

The value of the greenback was artificially inflated on the back of Wall St greed. Now it's come back to just about where it should be.

Could this be the fate of Mr Nuthouse?

"So the Snark found the verdict, although, as it owned,
It was spent with the toils of the day:
When it said the word "GUILTY!" the Jury all groaned,
And some of them fainted away.

Then the Snark pronounced sentence, the Judge being quite
Too nervous to utter a word:
When it rose to its feet, there was silence like night,
And the fall of a pin might be heard.

"Transportation for life" was the sentence it gave,
"And *then* to be fined forty pound."
The Jury all cheered, though the Judge said he feared
That the phrase was not legally sound.

"Also, I don't understand what the big panic is in the US over a minor correction in a currency."

There isn't any panic, Stan, it's (the "panic") entirely an artificial construct of the MSM.

The average bloke in the street isn't concerned at all. In fact, most are probably not even aware of it.

Sorry, Stan, Kath'n'Kim is only mildly entertaining. You can see the jokes coming from about a week in advance - mind you, you upsidedowners are known for your literal approach!

I wasn't aware of any Brits not being aware that the girls were in on the joke. I guess it's possible but it's far more likely to be yet another Aussie myth as they struggle to get over that massive inferiority complex! ;-)

Mate and bloke are completely English everyday words. I can't imagine where you get the idea they are more common in Australia.

I'm sure Clavos is entirely correct that the average bloke in the street is unaware of any financial crisis. Apparently there was a real financial crisis in the UK in the early 80s but it didn't seem to affect anyone I knew at all. Life still goes on, despite what media commenters and industry consultants believe.

PS Dave, sorry for fu.king up your thread :)

Hey, at least you're not making fun of my weight. That would be below the belt, though most of the weight is in fact directly above my belt.

Dave

#60 sez - "The average bloke in the street isn't concerned at all. In fact, most are probably not even aware of it."

perhpas not to yacht types in Miami...

up here in Maine and New England, between our dollar being on parity with the Canuck Loonie, and fuel oil costing MORE than premium gasoline, there's quite a bit of panic as the weather gets colder, and the price of groceries rise (due to much of the fresh fruits/veg coming from outside the country)

add it all up, and there's a lot less in pocket than last year, and the dismal start to the holiday shopping season is going to increase the economic ripple effect beyond the worst case estimates seen so far, imo

i said it months ago, right here on BC...recession next year (if we don't hit it before then)

with all of that, and the foreclosure situation just beginning to surface...it will get worse ...much worse, before it gets any better

Excelsior?

Actually, the recession's already here. If you take the time to read anand's posts on another thread, you'll see that the US economy is already on the skids and will crash totally within the next year.

Don't take my word for it; ask anand and all his experts.

PS With 27,000 unsold condo units looking for a home in Miami alone, housing is getting more affordable by the minute down here.

Pretty soon even the hotel waiters will be able to afford oceanfront...

not if no one can afford to go out to eat...

we will see..i'm not that bearish on it entirely, there are possibilities for many bright spots in the shitstorm to come

but this is a very crucial nexus, imo..and how the U.S. handles this one, as well as looks towards the future, will determine quite a lot about the next 100 years, imo

but i'm not going to get too speculative, some of the Probabilities are far too depressing to contemplate...others are full of Wonders

critical Choices to be made, and crucial Changes on the horizon...gotta have Trust in the Fact that we silly monkeys have managed to work it out so far...

Excelsior?

"gotta have Trust in the Fact that we silly monkeys have managed to work it out so far..."

Quoted for Truth.

Rose: "another Aussie myth as they struggle to get over that massive inferiority complex!"

Lol. Why would we be the ones with the inferiority complex. Have you been here?

Like I say, the big mistake Britain made 200 years ago was to send all the party people to the best place, while all the miserable, moaning, masses of the great unwashed got to stay over there and moan about the rain and the cold.

Some punishment for the transported.

Stan, why on earth would anyone in their right mind want to go to an island continent at the end of the world that is largely uninhabitable and full of some of the most toxic critters on the planet?

The big mistake Britain made was losing Hawaii, which is one of the most beautiful places on the planet.

Don't worry, with Hillary in office, I'm sure this recession can be stretched out for at least a decade and be used as a pretext for taking away our money and our liberties to an unprecedented degree.

Dave

so..rather than deal with the rott causes, or figure out how to solve the problem..at lkeast in part created by rapacious greed and deregulation of certain industries...as well as the cowboy diplomacy that destabilized the mid-east and brought oil from
$30 a barrel to approaching $100 (with gas going from 1-3$ during the same time period...you know, the term of this Administration)

rather than deal with all that realistically, with an eye towards solving the Problems...you decide that the best thing to do is to pre-emptively bitch and whine about someone who hasn't even won a primary yet...

and for this Vox quote - "...our liberties to an unprecedented degree."

gonna hafta go a LONG fucking way to catch up to what this Administration, and it's running dog lackey GOP controlled Congress/Senate have done

but don't let silly stuff like Facts get in the way of your partisan bullshit

much as i don't want another Clinton in the White House, it would almost be worth it just to observe just how apoplectic some folks would get

but i'd much rather have someone who will actually work towards solving Problems inaugurated in January '09

Excelsior?

"...i'd much rather have someone who will actually work towards solving Problems inaugurated in January '09"

Don't we all. But, realistically, what do you expect to change? I so no hint in the debate the other night.

Christopher Rosie sed: "But can't spell affidavits!"

Would this be a question?
hee hee

"Don't worry, with Hillary in office, I'm sure this recession can be stretched out for at least a decade and be used as a pretext for taking away our money and our liberties to an unprecedented degree."
- Dave Nalle

It'll take more than a decade to make up the $441 billion* Bush has spent on the Iraq invasion/occupation.

And we'll never get back those 3200* lives lost.

*and counting

And the excuses start to be filed almost two years in advance of Hillary even taking office. Blame it on the Republicans and then use it as a pretext to consolidate power.

Dave

I'm pretty skeptical of Ron Paul's idea of abolishing the Federal Reserve. I appreciate the complaints about fiat money and all, but how's that supposed to work, exactly?

On the other hand, this raid looks pretty clearly like blunt fascism, not any reasonable application of the rule of law or real consumer protection.

So I don't know about abolishing the Federal Reserve, but Ron Paul could definitely make a couple of points with me if he would go out of his way in the next debate to specifically point out and denounce this bogus raid.

"Blame it on the Republicans and then use it as a pretext to consolidate power."

blame it?

well, who should the mistakes from '00-o6 be blamed on?

who controlled the WH, Senate and Congress ?

who wrote the Policies, both foreign and domestic?

who wrote and approved the budgets and all that GOP pork?

on and on...fuck call it "blame"

assigning Responsibility based on objective and undeniable Facts, that's all

'fess up, take the lumps, and deal with the Consequences of bad decisions...namely losing in '06, and probably losing even more in '08

now, will the Dems fuck up as severely?

if so, toss them out the next round and try again

but mindless partisans on both sides need to stop their fucking whining and take their whippings for fucking up...at least be Honest about blatant mistakes and own up to it, that goes a lot further than having your hand stuck in the cookie jar and trying to look Innocent and say "wasn't me!"

or trying to distract and shift blame to the Opposition using nothing but the big Lie tactics of screaming it loud enough and often enough to fool the sheeple

Excelsior?

Gonzo, you seem to endorse the formula of the two major parties taking turns abusing power until the end of time. I'm looking for something a bit better, something along the lines of what the Republicans promised, but actually followed through on.

Dave

Vox sez - "Gonzo, you seem to endorse the formula of the two major parties taking turns abusing power until the end of time."

nope

i do think that no matter what good Intentions and purity of Spirit there is at the start, time and Power corrupt EVERYONE...so then it's time to toss the bastards out

"I'm looking for something a bit better, something along the lines of what the Republicans promised..."

and folks say i'm a Dreamer...wouldn't have thought you enough of the starry eyed Idealist to buy the Lies...but you were entranced by the shiny Bait

goes to show how some who might otherwise have a decent Mind can get conned/swindled/bamboozled from allowing Desire to overwhelm Reason

try not to get fooled again...

Excelsior?

"However much you want it to be so, making fun of someone is not a personal attack."

Ad hominem:

An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim. The process of proving or disproving the claims is thereby subverted, and the argumentum ad hominem works to change the subject.

It is most commonly used to refer specifically to the ad hominem abusive, or argumentum ad personam, which consists of criticizing or personally attacking an argument's proponent in an attempt to discredit that argument.

...

A (fallacious) ad hominem argument has the basic form:

- Person A makes claim X
- There is something objectionable about Person A
- Therefore claim X is false

Ad hominem is one of the best known of the logical fallacies usually enumerated in introductory logic and critical thinking textbooks.

...

Ad hominem abusive (also called argumentum ad personam) usually and most notoriously involves insulting or belittling one's opponent, but can also involve pointing out factual but ostensibly damning character flaws or actions which are irrelevant to the opponent's argument. This tactic is logically fallacious because insults and even true negative facts about the opponent's personal character have nothing to do with the logical merits of the opponent's arguments or assertions. This tactic is frequently employed as a propaganda tool among politicians who are attempting to influence the voter base in their favor through an appeal to emotion rather than by logical means, especially when their own position is logically weaker than their opponent's.

CR: "Stan, why on earth would anyone in their right mind want to go to an island continent at the end of the world that is largely uninhabitable and full of some of the most toxic critters on the planet? The big mistake Britain made was losing Hawaii, which is one of the most beautiful places on the planet."

Ah, you see, you've never been here so you don't know. Ask your compatriot Doc Dread - he has been here.

I agree with you about Hawaii (although it was never really a British colony), but much of Australia looks like Hawaii anyway. It's better though because it's not full of tourists. A half-hour outside of sydney, north and south, and you have many hundreds of kilometres of beautiful, untouched coastline. Even the surf is nearly as good as Hawaii's.

It's heaven on a stick, and the reason I don't live in the UK or the US. I'm always drawn back by the natural beauty of the place.

Even Sydney, which is now one of the world's top cities and a huge place, is unbelievably beautiful.

Think Spain, but stable, well-off, with old democracy and real rule of law inherited from Britain and without all the get-rich-quick developers and package-deal tourists.

And for those who wonder why it is I love Australia so much (Cristopher Rose, mostly), see here and understand why I rest my case. Makes Brighton, Redcar, Blackpool and Southend look a bit sick, eh Rosey??

Hawaii is beautiful, if you steer clear of the southern half of Oahu which has been ruined by urbanization. We Brits may have let the place slip through our fingers, but you've got to like their flag!

And yes, Chris, Australia is indeed a sumptuous place, although you'd never know it if someone plonked you down in a random part of the NSW bush. Not just Sydney itself - which is one of the top five Great Cities (at least in my book) - but places like the Great Ocean Road in the south, Fraser Island and the Great Barrier Reef off Queensland, and Uluru (Ayers Rock, to the unwashed) in the Red Centre.

And that's not even considering Western Australia and the Top End, which I haven't been to yet but will be making a beeline for on my next visit for sure.

Uluru, particularly, is probably the most astounding place I've ever been to. The desert around it pulsates with life, which I certainly wasn't expecting. One morning we went out for a camel ride and a pack of young male dingoes started following the camel train, howling at each other. The guide told us that hardly ever happens. One of those special moments you remember for a lifetime.

And no amount of photos can prepare you for the sight of Uluru itself. It's one of those rare places that can send a tingle up your spine just looking at it. Only other place I've been that did anything like that to me was St Peter's in Rome. (I imagine the Pyramids and Stonehenge would have a similar effect, but I've never been. I hope to remedy the Stonehenge omission when I visit home next month though!)

Bottom line, you can do a lot of travelling in your lifetime but you won't visit many places that feel like home. Australia does, and it's not just because of the hospitality.

So I do know why Stan loves it so much and am slightly baffled as to why so many young Aussies up sticks and move to London, some never to return. I dunno. Must be that whole bush larrikin urge to wander thing.

RJ, there is absolutely nothing in your quote about ad hominems that touches upon what I wrote. If you can't tell the difference between making fun of somebody and attacking somebody, you have a lot to learn. It's particularly inappropriate for you to try and lecture ANYBODY on the subject of ad hominems when you are not above making them yourself.

Try letting go of your ego, being a little less pompous and engaging your intelligence. Until then maybe you should confine yourself to the fine art of posting American Rugby scores, which seems more suited to your current deployed skill set.

Stan, can't imagine why some crowded beach full of upsidedowners would float your boat so much, but whatever works for you.

There are loads of great beaches and beautiful towns all over the UK so your arbitrary selection smacks more of sour grapes than fair does to me.

Must be lonely living so far from the world and a bit scary living with all the world's most dangerous beasties!

Doc, sure there are things of natural beauty in Oz and I may even pop over for a look one day. Mind you, there's things of natural beauty and wonder to be found all over this planet and no one will ever see them all.

Despite the undoubted beauty in the land of Oz, I could never live there, it's just too far from so many things of interest, on personal, cultural and social levels, a bit like Wales!

Spoken like a true member of the great unwashed.

And I wasn't just referring to the crowded beach. There are other pictures on the site :)

Obviously, you didn't scroll down.

And according to my Mercator's correctional map of the world, Australia and NZ are at the top, since nobody really knows whether north is actually up and south down.

That also makes Canada, America's hat, now America's undies.

And that small country shaped like a witch taking a dump is WAY down north, right down near the north pole.

And Doc, thanks for the support. If you ever move to Oz, you get immediate honorary citizenship.

Stan, you're rather grumpy today. First you bait me with Bondi Beach pictures and mocking England.

When I predictably rise to its defense - and say a decent thing or two about your former colony - you conclude with churlishness. What a great advert for the wasteland you are! ;-)

Not surprised to learn you have an upside down map to make you feel better about your distant location. If it makes you feel any better, in galactic terms Earth is pretty isolated too, being found about two thirds of the way out along one of the Milky Way's spiral arms in a relatively unpopulated region of space.

Does that make us all Astralians?

Which is why it's dark at night and the sky isn't filled with so many stars as to wash the world in perpetual daylight. Give it a few million years though.

In the meantime, get some sleep!

And Chris, the most dangerous beastie I've come across in Australia was a hormonally-fraught, decidedly non-native adolescent camel.

Chris, you are a typical moaning pom. First you bait me in that condescending fashion so typical of some of your countrymen, and when I bait you back, you take offence.

Most of the stuff I post about Poms is just a gee-up (Doc worked it out eons ago).

Thin skins and all that, old boy. Truth is, I don't give a crap what you think.

I've lived in both places (you haven't even been here, so you're hardly coming from a position of genuine understanding), and went to school for quite a few years in the Old Dart.

I worked out years ago which place was best.

No offence, and as much as I dearly love the Old Dart, it's not better. Far from it.

But, mate, it's your choice to keep believing that pommy bullsh.t - you have to I guess to be happy in your nation's collective misery.

Musn't grumble, eh?

"Until then maybe you should confine yourself to the fine art of posting American Rugby scores, which seems more suited to your current deployed skill set."

Awww...I sense some genuine anger emanating from across the Atlantic. Oh, well. Perhaps one day I'll be fortunate enough to reach your high level of enlightenment, and I'll be capable of making such wise and thoughtful observations as:

Fat-fatty-fat-fat-fatso.

Which I believe is pretty much the extent of the deep, meaningful message you are trying to convey in comments #28, #42, and #53...

RJ, I think it's telling that only Christopher and Moonraven have been so crass as to make my presumed fatness an issue.

It's not like Christopher has a lot to be proud of in the online beauty contest with this as the best face he has to put forward.

Dave

What you guys have to remember is that Chris has recently moved back to the Old Dart from Spain.

He's swapped sunshine and fun for misery and rain, cold beer and warm pies for warm beer and cold pies, and paella for vindaloo and chips.

That'll be the real reason he's been so narky lately.

Geez, if I ever had to go and live in the old country after living it up in the sun and surf I'd be pissed off as well.

Vindaloo and chips actually sounds pretty good to me.

But what I really miss is the mixed grill breakfast I used to get at a little place by the tube stop I took from my flat in Chelsea down to the PRO when last I lived in London. It was fantastic, with a banger and two lamb chops and a couple of eggs and some bacon and a fried tomato, all done together in a pan. Real English food and nothing beats it. Try getting a decent banger in Texas.

Dave

Ah yes, the extra full full-English breakfast. Means you can have three pints of bitter at lunchtime instead of food.

No hold on, beer is food isn't it??

(Dave: your fondness for the mixed grill might be the reason folks are, ah, passing comment about your beef)

The aussie equivalent of that is steak (a dirty big one hanging over the sides of the plate) and eggs, with all the extra stuff.

Still my favourite brekkie.

Steak and eggs is pretty standard here in the states. We even had a restaurant chain (maybe still do) called 'Steak and Egg'. Personally I prefer pork chops and eggs.

And yeah, my fondness for breakfast may have some connection to my somewhat inflatd condition, but I'm working on making breakfast my only meal of the day. Maybe that will help.

Dave

What amazes and ever so slightly depresses me is the tendency of people like RJ, Dave Nalle and even now Stan to totally ignore what people write in favour of their own subjective views. This is a real weakness of this type of written communication, as it requires more effort on behalf of the reader to understand what someone actually meant with the words they typed, an effort you three clearly don't care to make.

RJ, if it comforts you in some way to think that you made me angry, go right ahead and cling to the illusion. It's so much easier than actually contemplating the possibility suggested.

Dave, you've consistently shown yourself to be the king of Orwellian style doublespeak as you continuously profess yourself to be a fan of facts, information and logic whilst actually being one of the most deeply subjective people I've ever encountered. It's a real tragedy that you manage to maintain this self-delusion.

Your latest misperception is that I made your size an issue. Sure, I mentioned it in passing in comment #28 above, long after you began the rudeness and insults. Since then it's other people that have blown it up in size, if you'll pardon the jest.

Stan, unfortunately you seem to be succumbing to the same tendency. You started the baiting in your comment #49, when you whined about the English beating your lot in the rugby. I've been trying to maintain an element of even-handedness in addressing the distant continent's qualities but you have only managed to notice any hint of criticism. I think you're the one who's clearly a bit touchy on the subject...

You're also wrong as to my location. I don't go back until year's end, when we are moving to within twenty metres of the sea surrounding the Isle of Wight.

I'm really looking forward to it actually; wonderful as Spain is in many ways, there are actually a lot of both practical and social/cultural benefits to spending at least part of the year in England and now we're going to have the benefits of both cultures.

As to "He's swapped sunshine and fun for misery and rain, cold beer and warm pies for warm beer and cold pies, and paella for vindaloo and chips". Even though it's not happened yet, it won't either. I have come to appreciate rain after six years of nigh on continuous drought; I've never really liked those English beers when compared to the ice cold lagers of say Belgium (and at least I'm not in a country where people create dreck like Fosters or the worst "beer" I ever drank, that ode to nothingness known as Budweiser); and I don't eat either paella or chips, although I am looking forward to a decent curry when we're back!

Dave, you've consistently shown yourself to be the king of Orwellian style doublespeak as you continuously profess yourself to be a fan of facts, information and logic whilst actually being one of the most deeply subjective people I've ever encountered. It's a real tragedy that you manage to maintain this self-delusion.

Something which you yourself are so deeply mired in that it amuses me every time you try to accuse someone else of it. Sure, I have my biases. But at least I'm aware of them. You're a complex bundle of misconceptions and weird obsessions and yet completely unaware of how out of touch you are with reality. Then you have the gall to try to accuse people of the exact syndrome you labor under. It's bizarre.

As for my 'orwellian style doublespeak', that perception just demonstrates what we've already seen, that you're incapable of telling a complex viewpoint from a contradictory one, and that when someone says something you immediately latch onto just one aspect of it and then run with that, mistaking any future nuances for contradictions and digging yourself into a hole of misunderstanding piled on misunderstanding, driven by an egotistical unwillingness to go back and admit that your initial snap assessment of what someone said was dead wrong.

Dave

Dave, your comment above is possibly a classic example of treble speak! Not only do you continue in your depressing habit of ignoring reality in favour of your imaginary version of it, you then compound that by accusing me of doing the same thing. THAT is bizarre!

If you had any modicum of either grace or humour, you'd have simply written something like "Oops, slip of the keyboard, thanks for fixing it Chris" when I pointed out your mildly surprising spelling error instead of initiating this exchange of keyboard blows.

Of course, that would involve you admitting you made a mistake, something that almost never happens with you. It's normal to make mistakes and part of the human condition. I have no qualms at all about admitting mine, it's one of the ways that people learn and grow. You should try it sometime. Google "quotations about making mistakes" and see what fine company you could join!

It's simply not true that you have a complex viewpoint, although clearly you do have some kind of complex. As I've said before - and I think this is the real source of your rancour - I find your political views dated and unrealistic.

As to nuanced, you're the one that rules out entire political philosophies and perspectives as having no value or being outright dangerous, so where is the nuanced approach in that?

Based upon this display of spite and tantrum above, I doubt you could actually repeat back to me here what my perspective is, although I've told you several times when you've hysterically tried to pigeonhole me into one stereotype or another.

The whole of your comment is nothing but a petulant outburst that proves nothing but that the biggest and emptiest vessels make the most noise.

Steak and eggs??? Waffle House baby!

It's not like Christopher has a lot to be proud of in the online beauty contest with this as the best face he has to put forward.

Jeez, Dave, have some consideration. I'd just adjusted to you replacing your previous photo ("AAAAAGGGHH!") with that scary high-angle shot. ("AAAAAGGGHH!") Then before I know it we're back to the old pic. ("AAAAAGGGHH!") Then, to add insult to injury, you have to link to the only known extant portrait of our beloved comments editor. ("AAAAAGGGHH!")

I'll have that Valium now, with a Jameson's chaser.

Dave, your comment above is possibly a classic example of treble speak!

Not tribble speak? And if it's treble speak, doesn't the third voice negate the second and leave only the first surrounded by distractions?

If you had any modicum of either grace or humour, you'd have simply written something like "Oops, slip of the keyboard, thanks for fixing it Chris" when I pointed out your mildly surprising spelling error instead of initiating this exchange of keyboard blows.

Still harping on that, are we? I responded reasonably by mentioning that I don't use the word often and thus had no idea how to spell it. The problem originated in the fact that rather than just fixing the error or mentioning it to me privately you felt a need to use the mistake as an opportunity to publicly denigrate me with the famous 'snarky' comment.

Of course, that would involve you admitting you made a mistake, something that almost never happens with you. It's normal to make mistakes and part of the human condition. I have no qualms at all about admitting mine, it's one of the ways that people learn and grow. You should try it sometime. Google "quotations about making mistakes" and see what fine company you could join!

The problem isn't that I can't admit to making a mistake, it's that you have to rub my nose in it when I do for no reason other than pure pettiness.

As I've said before - and I think this is the real source of your rancour - I find your political views dated and unrealistic.

And clearly you're never going to understand that fundamental principles of human liberty are not capable of becoming 'dated'. That you treat politics like some sort of trendy fashion show is beyond bizarre.

As for defining your political beliefs, I'll leave that to you to do. It's not my job. Apparently they're the latest and the best, so I look forward to reading your manifesto.

Dave

so defending warrantless wiretapping is now somehow upholding Liberty?

Orwellian was a fine choice of adjective, imo

Excelsior?

Gonzo, it's not complicated. I believe in both principle AND pragmatism. If you're going to stand on principle, then do it fully and absolutely. If you're going to make a pragmatic compromise, then really do what's necessary to find working solutions.

We've been over this before.

If you are going to oppose warrantless wiretaps then you ought to also oppose FISA itself on constitutional grounds. If you accept FISA then you've already thrown out the 4th amendment and opened the door and created a huge gray area. Once you've done that all bets are off, so find some real solutions that work.

Dave

i don't agree...

whereas i DO have issues with the FISA laws...they DO involve Judicial oversight, and stood as the applicable Law

therefore knowingly violating them indeed comprises definitive "high crimes and misdemeanors" by definition

i'm all for finding a real solution that adheres to the Constitution, but no matter what, one cannot reconcile violating a Law on the Books that has Judicial review in it with any kind of adherence to the Constitution by definition

so much for Principle...add to it the Reason i will only refer to you as Vox and...well, nuff said on that, eh?

i give Credit where due, when you strike upon things accurately...but i also point out what appears to me to be pure bullshit when circumstances warrant, such as my previous comment

this one will go a long way to Haunting all this Administration's Apologists...

and this link provides corroboration to everything i have been saying (from my own experience in the field at telecomunications hub/regen stations) about the indiscriminate nature of both the taps and datamining...

you do often have a decent grasp of the basic Facts, but your slavery to Ideology and partisan bias colors your ability to synthesize and analyze the data properly

but i digress...

Excelsior?

gonzo, either you are one of the world's most patient people or you clearly haven't grocked yet that debating with Dave is absolutely pointless. Rather like wrestling mist, there's nothing of substance to get hold of, just endless shapeshifting. His main belief appears to be be in his own infallibility.

..that's the fun of it - he's a tarbaby

whereas i DO have issues with the FISA laws...they DO involve Judicial oversight, and stood as the applicable Law

Gonzo, judicial hindsight is NOT judicial oversight by any possible definition.

therefore knowingly violating them indeed comprises definitive "high crimes and misdemeanors" by definition

Here we have to disagree. I don't think it's possible to violate an invalid law.

i'm all for finding a real solution that adheres to the Constitution, but no matter what, one cannot reconcile violating a Law on the Books that has Judicial review in it with any kind of adherence to the Constitution by definition

Sure one can. All one has to do is appeal to the Constitution and reject the constitutional validity of the law and then let the Supreme Court decide. Read up on Andrew Jackson sometime.

BTW, I've never disagreed with you on the indiscriminate nature of datamining or of any of the scanning technology.

you do often have a decent grasp of the basic Facts, but your slavery to Ideology and partisan bias colors your ability to synthesize and analyze the data properly

I'm patient. I figure you (like troll) are not entirely immune to reason (unlike Christopher) and eventually you'll grasp the not terribly subtle difference between slavery to ideology and acceptance that there is a time for both the idealistic and the pragmatic and that neither by itself is sufficient when dealing with the realm of politics. You choose to think in absolutes. I've accepted that doing so just does not work when dealing with the real world.

Dave

Dave's closing paragraph above is unintentionally hilarious. In response to gonzo's accurate assessment of his thinking as excessively dogmatic, he gives a seemingly thoughtful answer that simultaneously condescends and misdirects under the guise of reasonableness. Classic Nalleism!

CR: No one drinks Foster's in Australia.

It's cat's piss.

Carlton makes a whole lot of far more palatable beers. Foster's was made for the export market, and lo and behold, does well outside Australia.

Which just goes to show: very few people outside this country, where it's virtually the only style of beer drunk because of the climate, have a genuine appreciation for a good lager.

BTW Chris, you are behaving like a fair-dinkum ponce. What's going on with you these days??

I think it's cute that Chris R. who censors other commentors thinks he has unlimited license to make constant personal attacks on another editor.

But then he's European and I hear they have a problem with inbreeding.

Constant condescending, patronising attacks on anyone who doesn't susbcribe to his own euro-entric views might be closer to the mark.

He's carrying on like a pork chop lately. Did you sit on a cucumber recently, Chris, or was it a sharp rock?

Whatever it is, you've certainly got something up yer bum.

Maybe you need break from blogcritics and a nice long holiday on the Isle of Wight. Oh, wait ...

Doc, I'm off to fetch the beer...hurry and get the chairs before Chris gets back!

"Of course, that would involve you admitting you made a mistake, something that almost never happens with you. It's normal to make mistakes and part of the human condition. I have no qualms at all about admitting mine [cite???], it's one of the ways that people learn and grow. You should try it sometime. Google "quotations about making mistakes" and see what fine company you could join!"

Wow. Now that's "snarky!" ;-)

Of course, I can trot out a number of examples with links here on BC of places where I made a mistake and acknowledged it.

All we have to do is scroll up to see Christopher adamantly insisting that:

"Snarky is a relatively new word and not used much at all in Europe, in fact I've never seen it outside of this and a few other websites."

Despite the fact that a form of it is used by Lewis Carroll, and dictionary references trace it to the mid 19th centuries in other sources, and it is described in other dictionaries as being in common use primarily in Europe and England, and comes up with about 2.5 million hits on google, about 10 times as many as another common word Christopher should familiarize himself with - 'pissant'.

So he makes the common arrogant error of assuming a general conclusion from his personal experience and being proven glaringly wrong, of course.

Where is his humble admission of error?

Dave

Right, after a lovely, albeit too brief, night's sleep, let's address this glorious harvest.

troll: What exactly do you mean by tarbaby? Are you referring to the Uncle Remus story, the Toni Morrison novel or the Marvel Comics mutant? I looked it up and assume you mean the Uncle Remus. According to Wikipedia,

Using the phrases "please don't throw me in the briar patch" and "tar baby" to refer to the idea of "a problem that gets worse the more one struggles against it" became part of the wider culture of the United States in the mid-20th century.

Bloody hell, couldn't you have just ignored us?

Couldn't you?

I have to admire your persistence, Christopher. Shows a truly delusional mindset.

Dave: Please do then provide us with "a number of examples with links here on BC of places where I made a mistake and acknowledged it". I would really like to see that claim substantiated and will, of course, admit my mistake if indeed it is so.

Well, it's not easy to track down the actual links out of my 10K or so comments, but as I find them I'll gladly provide them.

My understanding is that Lewis Carroll coined the word "snark" in his poem "The Hunting Of The Snark" in 1876. How the word evolved from there to its current, predominantly American, usage of "snarky" seems rather unclear.

None of the etymological listings associate the word with Carroll's word 'snark' and they mostly connect it to a scandinavian root word.

However, having spent nearly all my life in Europe, I can assure you that the word has never come up, in either conversation or written exchange, other than in its original Carrollian context..

In your experience, which is inherently limited. I've spent more years on the planet living in more countries than you have, and there are still words I encounter that I'm unfamiliar with and I'd never be so arrogant as to assume it couldn't happen again, in fact it has happened once here on BC. My reaction was not to adamantly deny the existence of thw word.

I feel quite confident in standing by my original assertion that the American "snarky" is not in wide usage over here and that no error has been committed. What is clear is that your assertion that it is in wide use in Europe is another of your misconceived wish fulfillment fantasies.

Research on this isn't exactly easy to do. However, if you check urbandictionary.com for the word you'll find a couple of anecdotal examples where the contributors claim that the word is of English origin and mainly used in Canada and the UK.

I then did a search of usage by domain name. The results suggest that it's more Canadian than British, but more common in both than in the US. Among all domain name endings it appears 2.5 million times. However, it appears 450K times in domains ending in .uk and 700K times in domains ending in .ca. Those numbers are so out of proportion to the general distribution of those geographical endings among all domains, that it shows a clear prevalence of the usage of the word among people from those two countries.

In addition, I was not the one who originally claimed that the word originated in the UK or was predominantly used there. You claimed that it was not used there, a claim which was purely anecdotal and which you are clearly unable to substgantiate.

Rather than confining yourself to a debate, a dialogue of ideas, you couldn't stop yourself from making yet another insulting remark to me, which tells rather more about you than you may have meant to reveal.

You might want to take a moment to follow the thread of insults and/or snarky comments to the one which started the exchange. It's the one that's printed on the large beam that's poking you in the eye.

Dave

Dave, you're getting sillier with each post. Let's patiently address your daftness bit by bit.

1. Persistence in rebutting your posts and delusional mindsets are unrelated. Being unable to respond to statements with related answers and delusional mindsets are related. Doing!

2. So you can't actually provide any examples of you admitting to mistakes, never mind a number of them as you claimed you could. Doing!

3. The top result in Google for "snarky etymology" is

irritable, short-tempered," 1906, from snark (v.) "to snort" (1866), from an imitative source akin to Low Ger. snarken, N.Fris. snarke, Swed. snarka.

For Whom the Bell Tolls

No man is an island,
Entire of itself.
Each is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.

If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.

As well as if a manner of thine own
Or of thine friend's were.

Each man's death diminishes me,
For I am involved in mankind.

Therefore, send not to know
For whom the bell tolls,
It tolls for thee.

Doc, I'm off to fetch the beer...hurry and get the chairs before Chris gets back!

It's like you and Emmy doing your Three Stooges bit, only with more words.

He's carrying on like a pork chop lately. Did you sit on a cucumber recently, Chris, or was it a sharp rock?

Whatever it is, you've certainly got something up yer bum.

He could be in an even worse mood by the end of tonight's footie action.

The England soccer team, in a typically inept showing, went 2-0 down in their final European Championship qualifier, at home, in a match they only need to draw, against Croatia who have already qualified and have nothing riding on the game.

As of a couple of minutes ago England were back to 2-2, but let's not count our chickens just yet...

Final score: England 2, Croatia 3.

Brace yourselves...

I have a client in Split. I just sent him a congratulatory email.

Did you use any