Blogcritics Comments on The Illinois Moment of Silence Law: An Update

Comment by Dr Dreadful on The Illinois Moment of Silence Law: An Update

Fri, 16 May 2008 00:15:30 EDT

Unconstitutional? Possibly not. But why legislate it?

Comment by Carly on The Illinois Moment of Silence Law: An Update

Thu, 15 May 2008 22:40:50 EDT

The moment of silence is not a get around way to add prayer in schools. Students are constantly bombarded with noise; whether it be music, cars, teachers, parents, friends, televisions. To give them a few moments of peace in a busy day is not unconstitutional. It is simply silence. Teachers demand silence of their classes constantly and are never questioned as to their constitutionality. Students, in fact have the right to pray, as protected by the constitution, not taken away by it. During silence a student may pray, reflect, talk to themselves, meditate, or whatever they please. If they choose to pray they can pray to Baal, Buddha, Muhammad, God, whatever god they choose. THis law is religiously neutral and great way to give students a break in the middle of a day jam packed with sports, friends, and homework. I don't see what the big deal is. I think those opposed to it are afraid of Christians getting a hold of the world and taking it over!!!! AHH!! I mean come on. Realistic? I think not. If that is your view of Christians, get to a know a true Christian. You just might change your mind. Whether you do or not, silence is not a Christian doctrine. Silence is universal and for everyone!! Thats quite a liberal viewpoint if you ask me...

Comment by The Reverend Spadge Dooley on The Illinois Moment of Silence Law: An Update

Fri, 16 Nov 2007 18:58:41 EST

Way hay! You have made of the American constitution a veritable bible... A holy text and words that are writ and cannot be altered and, now you do the angels dancing on the heads of pins thing with it. Just a thought.

Comment by Baronius on The Illinois Moment of Silence Law: An Update

Fri, 16 Nov 2007 18:43:54 EST

My libertarian instinct says to do away with the public school system entirely. My more domesticated side says that if something isn't unconstitutional, it's allowed.

Comment by gonzo marx on The Illinois Moment of Silence Law: An Update

Fri, 16 Nov 2007 17:08:08 EST

can't hear ya over the woodchipper, handy what was that again? Excelsior?

Comment by handyguy on The Illinois Moment of Silence Law: An Update

Fri, 16 Nov 2007 17:06:49 EST

I understand Larry Craig was a very popular 'costume' at gay gatherings this Halloween. I prefer my theocrats out in the open...they should be seen but not heard [fat chance].

Comment by gonzo marx on The Illinois Moment of Silence Law: An Update

Fri, 16 Nov 2007 16:45:14 EST

but where else do you keep your theocrats? i mean, i filled the closet with Craig and some of his "buddies" ... ah well, Cuisinart makes bone meal Excelsior?

Comment by handyguy on The Illinois Moment of Silence Law: An Update

Fri, 16 Nov 2007 16:09:50 EST

Mr B: I believe you are playing the devil's advocate, so to speak. You're enough of a libertarian not to want the government demanding that you or your kids do anything, much less something as obviously contentious as this. The intentions of the lawmakers are pretty clear to everyone else, if not to you. "Looking for theocrats under the bed"? Unbelievably silly thing to say.

Comment by Baronius on The Illinois Moment of Silence Law: An Update

Fri, 16 Nov 2007 15:53:23 EST

The word "prayer" in "prayer or reflection" seems to bother you. You're missing the importance of the word "or". "Prayer or reflection" matches the perfect balance of the First Amendment: it doesn't establish a religion; at the same time, it doesn't prevent any. You guys keep seeing theocrats hiding under the bed, but if you look at what this law says, there's nothing harmful.

Comment by gonzo marx on The Illinois Moment of Silence Law: An Update

Fri, 16 Nov 2007 11:44:21 EST

sorry i missed comment #9 Barbara..i know similar sentiments exist in both OT and NT...my point was it's not in any Commandments it's misnaming and conflating that messes up when a lot of folks try and cite Scriptural references as justifications, imo hope that helps Excelsior?

Comment by gonzo marx on The Illinois Moment of Silence Law: An Update

Fri, 16 Nov 2007 11:31:14 EST

"Prayer does not belong in the language of a law dealing with public school instruction. Period." Quoted for Truth Excelsior?

Comment by Lee Richards on The Illinois Moment of Silence Law: An Update

Fri, 16 Nov 2007 11:07:38 EST

Legislators can't figure out how to: Fix bridges, build enough roads, balance budgets, keep track of illegals, fund state universities, control drugs, improve air and water quality, fight crime, etc., etc. These are the things they are elected to do, not provide spiritual guidance to a diverse school population. And their goal through such legislation, I believe, is not just a moment of reflection, introspection, or preparation. It is of course unstated but seems clear that what they really seek is mandated time for prayer--Christian prayer. That's what their supporters believe in and what such laws are meant to encourage. You can't require such prayers be repeated in school anymore, but you can try to slip it in. I'm all for anyone praying who wants too, at any appropriate time, although I tend to be highly suspicious of those who always want others to notice how devout they are. I'm also all for keeping government's disguised promotion of any one faith out of schools and separate from what belongs in the church, home, and heart.

Comment by Barbara Barnett on The Illinois Moment of Silence Law: An Update

Thu, 15 Nov 2007 22:17:55 EST

Baronius--it's the mandated nature of the law that is bothersome and the use of the word "prayer." To me that's a non-starter. I don't have a problem with prayer in school. In private school, that is. It gave me no greater pleasure last spring than to see my son on a high school semester in Israel, standing on the shore of the Mediterranean Sea, in the middle of a school field trip praying the afternoon prayers. But that's sort of the point. It was a private school, teaching religious values to which we subscribed. We were fine with it and delighted to participate in his prayer services. Prayer does not belong in the language of a law dealing with public school instruction. Period. Barbara

Comment by Zedd on The Illinois Moment of Silence Law: An Update

Thu, 15 Nov 2007 22:06:36 EST

handy / Baronius, Would calling it a "moment of calm" help you? Why are you against a moment of silence being mandated for children in school? Why is contemplation bad for a mind that is being educated? Gentlemen it is school. A place for learning. A place where deliberation and calm are called for. It is not a social event lest we forget. A moment of reflection is primo and instills something that we forgot that we can do, THINK.

Comment by Zedd on The Illinois Moment of Silence Law: An Update

Thu, 15 Nov 2007 21:58:45 EST

Lee I'd have to say that the kids are not failing and experiencing everything else that you mentioned because of the actions or inactions of the school district or its officials. Its the parents. Its the homes. I am not offended by a moment of reflection. I actually think it is a good thing. In the time of "ADD" and 12hr work days and being constantly plugged in, I think that it is a valuable thing to impart to children. Why shouldn't the school teach contemplation? The kids certainly cant be doing drugs or whatever else during that moment. I am against the time being referred to as prayer time. I think that a person who is raised to pray, will use it to pray as they are always in a state of prayer.

Comment by Baronius on The Illinois Moment of Silence Law: An Update

Thu, 15 Nov 2007 20:12:35 EST

Of course not! First of all, this is the internet; this is no place for agreement. Secondly, what's not ok about it? It doesn't establish religion. It doesn't require prayer. It requires a moment of silence. I really don't see how this could be unconstitutional. If the teacher keeps quiet, and the students aren't talking, there's no shared prayer. No peer pressure to pray. Look at it realistically - the only thing I ever did in homeroom was think about girls. If this policy were in place in my school days, I would have had a quiet moment to think about girls. That's it. I'm no theocrat, believe me. If this looks like creeping theocracy to you, everything must look like creeping theocracy to you. Ask yourself, if it weren't for the people who scare you, is there anything in this bill that would cause you concern?

Comment by handyguy on The Illinois Moment of Silence Law: An Update

Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:50:15 EST

Baronius: Moment of silence = ok, maybe. Moment of silence mandated by a legislature = very definitely not ok Surely you agree?

Comment by Baronius on The Illinois Moment of Silence Law: An Update

Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:44:30 EST

Barbara, that's why I don't see a problem with a moment of silence. Unless your religious practice demands noise, a moment of silence is entirely open to any faith. Andy, I know what you mean. We had rules and morality and good education, then we had none of them. It makes you wonder if rules and morality have something to do with education.

Comment by Erin on The Illinois Moment of Silence Law: An Update

Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:23:52 EST

People not from Illinois don't understand that Illinois is NOT a liberal state. CHICAGO is a liberal city, and seeing as how we hold onto the majority of the population, and the areas around us are fairly liberal as well, when it comes time to vote, we carry it. Once you leave the big city, however, the political opinions are DRASTICALLY different. I'm only 17, and I have realized this first hand. Southern Illinois and Western Illinois are like mini bible belts. Chicago is the most liberal chunk of the state, everywhere else contains the hardcore bible thumpers.

Comment by Barbara Barnett on The Illinois Moment of Silence Law: An Update

Thu, 15 Nov 2007 15:48:44 EST

Howard sez - "Love God with all your heart, mind and soul. This is a commandment in the Holy Bible" excuse me? i have seen the Ten Commandments from Jes, Roman Catholics and Protestants...in none of those versions is what you cite this factual inaccuracy is carried on in various places throughout the comment and thus is rendered both semantically and logically null and void Actually it's in Deuteronomy. And part of one of the central themes in Judaism. But the way in which one loves God with "all your heart, with all your soul and with all your might," is a matter of action and not as much to with Jesus as how you act as a person. But all of this is beside the point. As Howard said: The children should be taught truth, and allowed to consider the avenue on which to obtain, and secure truth. My question is (and it's rhetorical)--whose truth? Christian truth? Muslim truth? But I would believe that you would only answer that there is but one truth--yours. The seperation of church and state is so essential because no one philosophy or religion has an exclusive on truth. And that is the point.

Comment by Andy Marsh on The Illinois Moment of Silence Law: An Update

Thu, 15 Nov 2007 12:34:52 EST

Maybe someone can explain to me why those schools where prayer IS mandated have such higher graduation rates and higher rates of kids continuing there educations? I know I'm going to hear...or read as the case may be...that it's because when parents fork out the money they're more involved...maybe so..maybe not, I knew plenty of kids when I was in one of thes prayer mandated schools growing up, whose parents could give a hoot about their grades... When I was a kid in private school, there were always to many kids in the class...so it can't be overcrowding...the text books were always outdated...so it can't be the material... I'm not saying that it was prayer...or marching down to church every first Friday...actually, I think it was the threat of violence...not from my parents...although they would have added to it...but from the teachers. So, I say, to hell with prayer...let's bring back corporal punishment!!! I suppose I should also say, my daughters are out of school now...so it's YOUR kids that I'm all for beating...not mine!

Comment by gonzo marx on The Illinois Moment of Silence Law: An Update

Thu, 15 Nov 2007 12:19:21 EST

Howard sez - "Love God with all your heart, mind and soul. This is a commandment in the Holy Bible" excuse me? i have seen the Ten Commandments from Jes, Roman Catholics and Protestants...in none of those versions is what you cite this factual inaccuracy is carried on in various places throughout the comment and thus is rendered both semantically and logically null and void Excelsior?

Comment by Howard Bowen on The Illinois Moment of Silence Law: An Update

Thu, 15 Nov 2007 12:09:07 EST

Love God with all your heart, mind and soul. This is a commandment in the Holy Bible. Jesus is the source of unbounded love. God created human beings as sinners, and offers people redemption for sin through The Lord Jesus. People, as the single outstanding exception to all the world, are created "in his image". One aspect of this is explained in scripture by revealing that the usual truth about people who ignore God is that they get ignored in return. That bearing, according to scripture, is not the case with the figure of the Apostle Paul. Paul, before his encounter with God, was Saul, a ferocious patrician who hunted, persecuted and slayed Christians. God's name, prior to seeking his creation as Jesus, the Christ who is the personage of God, whom he ordained people to crucify, was Jehovah. It is at the time of the Christ that God changed his covenant with people, part of which instructs us to seek the love of Jesus. The Golden Rule, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you", goes hand in hand with another promise, "seek and you will find". In other words: seek the love of The Lord Jesus, and redemption from sin, and salvation of your soul, and the comfort of Jesus. According to the trinity it is God in Jesus who is the savior of humanity, not our government. God, as Jehovah, has written he will allow people to perish as the leaves on the trees if his wrath is conjured. Scripture states that the information outlined in the Gospel is the responsibility of the teachers and leaders of a community, and family, to teach to the children. The schools teach competition, which essentially is the defeat of one for the gain of the other. Television teaches violence, greed, lust and narcissism, as it comes as the powerful dominion of the establishment. Is it justifiable to teach children that the solution to the strife and tribulation which results from these human qualities is more government and more money? There is certain danger in teaching the hierarchy of mankind only goes up as high as the top level OF this world. IN this world is a phenomenon that cannot be seen by some of the most violent criminals, all the way up the ladder to the most powerful figures in business and government. The children should be taught truth, and allowed to consider the avenue on which to obtain, and secure truth.

Comment by Barbara Barnett on The Illinois Moment of Silence Law: An Update

Thu, 15 Nov 2007 10:14:59 EST

Barbara, you don't sound paranoid. You do sound bigoted against those undiverse Christians downstate. Perhaps I'm bigoted against Chicagoans, but your anti-downstate feelings seem pretty common among Chicagoans I've known. Baronius, this has nothing to do with Chicago vs. downstate sensibilities. It has everything to do with the separation of church and state. The mandated-nature of this law takes it to that level. Update: A judge issued an injunction against the statute yesterday. The injunction applies only to school district 214 (my home high school district, actually)as the suit filed by Rob Sherman (another suit) lives in our district. The matter will be taken up today once again to determine if the injunction should be expanded state wide, pending a federal court fight. Stay tuned. Barbara

Comment by Baronius on The Illinois Moment of Silence Law: An Update

Wed, 14 Nov 2007 13:16:44 EST