Realist, I do appreciate your effort to condense all of this propaganda and arrant nonsense into a single coherent form, but let me see if I can help you out with something that may be unfamiliar to you - actual facts.

Just one point for now. It's not the 'havemores' who are avoiding military service, unless you consider the very poorest in the country to be 'havemores', which seems a bit odd.

As I'm sure you've heard before, it's standard to break the population down into five quintiles of income.

Based on that breakdown the bottom quintile has the lowest level of military service at 14.6% and the second highest income quintile has the highest level of military service at 22.5%. What's more, the level of service is increasing for the top two quintiles and decreasing for the bottom two quintiles.

After 9/11 there was a marked increse in volunteers from upper income groups and a corresponding decline in recruits from lower income groups. After 9/11 you also see a measurable increse in recruits in 'red' states and a measurable decrease in recruits from 'blue' states. All of this suggest that in fact, those parts of the country and those segments of the economy who supposedly (though I disagree) benefit from and support the war more, actually went to fight more as well, directly contrary to what you suggest.

Of course, these numbers apply solely to new recruits between the ages of 18 and 24. Income levels are considerably higher when you include the relatively small number of older new recruits.

Dave

Realist,

Instead of writing these stupid screeds, why don't you DO something about the "Havemores?"

Go out and kill some of 'em. Start with the lawyers -- the ones in Congress. Then hit Wall Street. Come on down to Miami and nail all the Latino Havemores who refuse to speak English and own this town.

Then go to Caracas and get all the Chavista Havemores in their Hummers.

Arabia next. Nail all the Havemore ex camel herders and their veiled virgins.

Man, there are millions of 'em worldwide!

You'd better get started; you've got your work cut out for you.

once again - too long by half

Clavos, I applaud your suggestion. I think we should off all the Havemores. Or at least send them to Mao-style 're-education' camps.

Hold on a sec, Nancy, while I extract my tongue from my cheek.

I don't have anything against "Havemores" as a class. There are, of course, some (Hollywood actors, e.g.) whom I can't stand, but I don't think being wealthy is necessarily a bad thing.

In fact, what IS a "Havemore?" To someone making minimum wage, I'm sure I'M a Havemore, but I certainly don't think I am. To me, most physicians are Havemores (my brother in law certainly is WAY better off than I), yet Bill Gates would consider them small potatoes.

I was just trying to point out to Realist the illogic of his rant.

But I do have a yacht, MR.

A fillup for it costs $1500 these days (500 gals. X $3.00, marine diesel is cheaper [fewer taxes] than road fuel).

Tough, without a CC; have to carry a lot of cash.

I assume you are referring to the remains of GRANMA when you talk about your "yacht"....

What a laugh: clavos as a high roller!

Or has trafficking in gusanos become a lot more lucrative business than it used to be?

The remains of Granma are in a glass box in Habana; I've seen them.

My boat is right out behind my apt.; I can see it from my living room.

I'm decidedly NOT a "high roller" as I pointed out in #5.

The shame of this is that the Realist does point out that our Veterans are NOT being cared for properly by the same government that sent them on an ill-advised venture to Iraq.

Nalle,
You don't refute the stats about homeless veterans, so I presume you are somewhat aware of this epidemic? Or will you provide us with a contrary statistic that points to the democrats as the cause of this problem?
How about the outright refusal to diagnose PTSD to deny future benefits to our Veterans?
I'm sure you will say this is an "overused" diagnosis that designed to increase government bureaucracy and democratic pork programs as well?

"How about the outright refusal to diagnose PTSD to deny future benefits to our Veterans?"

Factual citation for that allegation?

I personally know at least a DOZEN veterans (from both VN and Iraq) being paid in excess of $3K a month (and being treated) for PTSD.

The homeless veterans point is true, to the extent that approximately 25% of US homeless are veterans.

However, the totality of homeless is as amuch due to the decision years ago to close down mental health facilities and turn their patients out. Those without means today form the bulk of the homeless, civilian and veteran.

According to wikipedia:

"The negative stereotypes (and an undercurrent belief that patients were "entitled to think what they wanted", rather than accept societal norms) continued to promulgate, however, and went even further in the backlash against social welfare policies in the 1980s, which led to massive deinstitutionalisation and funding cuts. These changes led to the closing of many mental hospitals and the further reliance on local community care. Many former patients, instead of reintegrating successfully into society or receiving community treatment, simply wound up as homeless persons."

I'm a Life Member of Disabled American Veterans, and I volunteer at the VA hospital.

Pretty much all my charity work and donations go to veterans.

Clavos,

I have first hand knowledge of the refusal, or I'll tone down to 'reluctance' of the VA to diagnose PTSD in returning combat veterans. By brother was a counselor at a VA Hospital and he was told outright that they could not / would not make this diagnosis because he made/kept the Gov't liable for the Vets treatment. Hence costing them a lot of money. The sad thing is, based on my brothers experience a simple 'reverse' boot camp that gets our warriors primed and pumped for combat action can get them toned down and ready to deal with civilian life. 8 weeks, with some helpful group therapy and they can use tools to help them cope with life.

Sorry, no links, trust me on this one.

I believe you, Martin. There HAS been a "tightening" of the criteria for a PTSD diagnosis, which, among other things, can now only be made by a licensed physician, where previously ratings techs could make such decisions and the Drs only "signed off" on the rating.

The VA says, and I don't doubt them on this, that a recent review of PTSD cases, especially among Vietnam vets, revealed an "unacceptable" level of phony claims, which was a reason for the changes.

Leave it to the VA to think that the preposterous high percentage of homeless people being Vietnam Vets to be some sort of phony claim. Ridiculous!

It reminds me of the old Jack Lemmon Walter Mathau movie the Apartment or was it something else, where Walter played the atty and Jack was the injured guy.....

Hmmm.....if only the US Gov't had better surveillance they could catch these phony Vets sleepy under a bridge, having a grand ol time pretending to be traumatized.....

Is it just me?

No, Martin, it's not you, it's me. I wasn't clear in my previous post.

What the VA was talking about had nothing to do with the homeless vets; they were addressing the issue of vets claiming PTSD, and they were blaming themselves for having accepted the claims without appropriate medical or psychiatric exams.

I doubt that a lot of the homeless vets are VA PTSD cases, as those vets get compensation sufficient to house, clothe, and feed themselves; and they get an allowance for home health care (usually by a spouse) or are hospitalized, as appropriate.

It's my understanding that most of the homeless vets aren't registered and have not been rated by the VA.

As multi-year VA patient myself, I do think the VA is getting much more of a bum rap than it deserves these days.

Most (but not all) of the negatives you've heard about in the MSM involve screwups in the service-run hospitals, not in the VA system, and often, the MSM itself confuses them.

Oh holy crap, 44% of veterans in a two year old survey were dissatisfied with the response of the federal government to complaints of employment discrimination against veterans. Damn that BusHitler! We're going to heck in a handbasket. Heck, I tell you!

You don't refute the stats about homeless veterans, so I presume you are somewhat aware of this epidemic?

Of course I am aware of it.

Or will you provide us with a contrary statistic that points to the democrats as the cause of this problem?

Not a statistic, but some basic facts. The neglect of the VA during the Clinton administration played a big role in this, but the root cause of the homeless vet problem is the difficulty of getting vets to agree to be treated for PTSD and other psychological disorders.

How about the outright refusal to diagnose PTSD to deny future benefits to our Veterans?

Do you have stats on this? I know several vets who have received treatment from the VA for PTSD and others who have refused it despite repeated attempts to get them counseling.

I'm sure you will say this is an "overused" diagnosis that designed to increase government bureaucracy and democratic pork programs as well?

Why would I say that? I had a great-uncle who committed suicide because of PTSD resulting from his experiences in WWI. One of my uncles had PTSD from his time as a forward observer in WWII. Battle Fatigue and PTSD has a history as a legitimate problem for veterans going back as long as there have been wars.

Dave

Very moving column in today's NY Times [local news section] about a returning Staten Island vet and his mother's battles with the system:

"A Soldier Home From War, and a Mother Fighting Hard"

Bad judgement haunts us, doesn't it?

We never seem to improve our judgement about either reducing war fever or even warring better. We humans create the conditions for war and then succumb so readily to the temptations of visiting violence on others that an interplanetary creature looking down on us would be justified in concluding that we are enthusiastic to attack, maim and kill. And having momentarily paused in the never-ending battles we discard the soldiers no longer of use in The Bigger War, The Longer War, are cast aside.

And then such interplanetary creatures might conclude that we are hopelessly unable to allow any peace anywhere and we are not worthy of salvation.

Perhaps a Preemptive strike would be called for.

@#19:

Very evocative opinion piece.

Somewhat light on facts, however.

Yeah, I'd call it more just a human-interest story. I don't think there's any political agenda as such.

Bliffle, A pre-emptive strike against us will not be necessary. We are already imploding, and before long will be under water. Fine with me.

"Fish gotta swin, birds gotta fly"....

"...but they don't last long if they try!"

(cf. Tom Lehrer, "Pollution")

Al Barger: "We're going to heck in a handbasket. Heck, I tell you!"

Would that be Heck, Oregon or Heck, West Virginia?

Clavos, Dave Nalle, and others as interested:

I'm a writer working on a story about PTSD, including the question(s) of how difficult/easy it is to get PTSD diagnosis and treatment (from the VA) and whether false claims or erroneous diagnoses (mistaking other anxiety disorders or depression for PTSD, for example) are adding extra stress to the PTSD system and therefore a) warping the estimates of prevalence, b) taking resources that might otherwise go to bona fide PTSD cases and c) serving the misdiagnosed patients poorly because they're getting treated for PTSD instead of their actual problem.

Another issue is why the VA's treatment success falls well short of PTSD treatment outcomes in civilian cases.

Let's be clear: I'm not suggesting or trying to document an assertion that all or even most vets seeking PTSD treatment or disability claims are fabricating. Clearly PTSD is a huge problem and many need and deserve treatment and aid. I'm trying to evaluate a suggestion raised by many in the field, and by discrepancies in numbers, that a combination of forces may be creating an overdiagnosis of PTSD and, in some cases (not terribly unlike the "Stolen Valor" dynamic), a few illegitimate claims for PTSD.

To that end I'm interested in communicating with anyone with direct experience regarding these issues. Let me repeat: I fully recognize that most PTSD cases and claims are legit. I'm trying to investigate the question, raised by both treatment people and some veterans, of how many mistaken or misdirected diagnoses or claims are part of the picture. This speaks not only to innocent errors of diagnosis or self-diagnosis but to the question of false claims as well, as raised in Clavos's post above.

Anyone who would like to share direct or reliably informed information on this should feel free to write me at neurowriter at gmail - dot - com.

Thanks.

There is no great mystery about PTSD. Any competent clinical psychologist can test for it. I was tested 20 years ago after I was raped and beaten in the US. The testing took an hour or two, if memory serves.

I suggest you go to a VA hospital and interview any Vets seeking treatment or any of the attending interns who may have a first hand knowledge.

The issue of the diagnosis in the first place is one of perceived liability in regards to treatment. The actual treatment, as I understand it, can be fairly simple, although not easy and cost effective. Any clinical psychologists can develop a treatment plan that will enable the combat Veteran to deal with this condition fairly easily and as I mentioned in an earlier post, a reverse basic training for all returning vets can eliminate a large portion of PTSD from occurring in the first place since it appears to be fairly progressive.

What's this about it appearing to be fairly progressive? I have never seen anything that indicates that it is progressive.

The VA basically has dropped the ball on this and the communities have had to pick up the slack. Back in the early 80s when I was directing a multi-service agency in the Seattle area we had a very active group of vets--almost all of which suffered from PTSD, although there were a few that were diagnosed with clinical depression. The vets indicated that without the group they would probably have been setting up tripwires somplace up in the woods.

What I mean about being fairly progressive is that things get worse without treatment. So, a reverse basic training program, would give returning Vets tools to address their PTSD symptoms, before they kill someone or themselves. My point is that the VA does not want to diagnose PTSD because they don't want to even admit it exists......

They don't care if it exists or not--they just don't want to pay for the treatment.

Summary of an article published in 2007, Health Affairs, which is published by Project Hope (The full paper is available only with a paid subscription):

"Treating post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) among returning Iraq/Afghanistan veterans is a high priority for the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs (VA). The number of Persian Gulf-era veterans diagnosed with PTSD grew by 8,000 veterans per year from 2003 to 2005. Since 1997, however, the average annual growth in all users of VA specialty mental health services has averaged 37,000 veterans per year, including 22,000 per year with PTSD. This expansion was associated with a 37 percent reduction in mental health visits per veteran per year. The VA has substantially increased funding for PTSD services. Nevertheless, the observed growth in demand requires continued monitoring to assure that the needs of returning veterans are met." (emphasis added)

Project Hope has no connection whatever with the Department of Veterans Affairs, nor with any branch of the government.

As an insider on the patient side, I believe this to be true, and have seen plenty of evidence of it in my own frequent visits to the Miami VAMC, both as patient and as volunteer.

Clavos #33

Stats on the Persian Gulf War, I would think that was a cake walk in comparison to what our troops have encountered during the timing you state 2003-2005. While the numbers are increasing, that doesn't mean they are necessarily diagnosing it more readily, just maybe that more people are insisting on getting treated.
I still say that based on my brothers first hand experience that a little reverse boot camp would do wonders. We pump em up to kill, we need to wind em down. That's the bottomline.

Not disagreeing with the reverse boot camp idea, Martin, just pointing out that it's not true that the VA is deliberately refusing PTSD patients.

If you think about it, I would expect them (the VA) to exaggerate, not minimize, the number of patients of ALL diseases they're treating. That way, they can claim and get more money. Bureaucrats (and the VA is THE largest bureaucracy in the federal government at this time) instinctively make their agencies grow, not shrink.

It's one of the inherent problems of government; it always grows bigger, not smaller.

Damn. I came here for moomraven's incredibly racist remarks about 'kikes' only to find that the comment editor seems to have deleted it.

Realist

Forty-four percent of the reservists polled said they were dissatisfied with how the Labor Department handled their complaint...

Dissatisfaction with government services is certainly a good argument to fight government health care.

I have been labeled many things in my life but it is irritating (polite word) to be refered to as a Havemore. I make a hell of a lot of money but I worked my butt off to get where I am at. All of my family are on welfare or in jail. I made something of myself and you have the nerve to label me. As if my working hard has somehow hurt you.

According to two on the ground stories in yesterday's Proceso here in Mexico, the soldiers are going for evaluations because if they act out in any violent way and have NOT been given a diagnosis of PTSD, they are simply given the boot from the army and are not eligible for anything.

If they receive a diagnosis of PTSD they are entitled to the approximately 2500 dollars a month plus treatment programs.

Suicide rates are very high since the Iraq invasion.

My first step-father committed suicide in 1950--he was only 25, and then they just called it "Survivor's Guilt".