Right back atcha, Benjamin.

Welcome Home, Brother.

Unbelievable that the school principal would behave that way. You really ought to take him to task for it. I'd like to hear his justifications.

Dave

imo, the disconnect between Civilians and the Military started in Korea to some extent...made worse in Nam, and has grown exponentially between Gulf 1 and current Iraq operations

not enough of the Citizenry involved as they were in WW2...nothing Asked of the average Individual...precious few with direct ties to military personnel..and a complete disconnect with the Policies that sent our folks into harm's way

when the Public is told to support our troops by going to the mall, you know there is a Problem

from this ex-military guy to all others who have Served... thanks

Excelsior?

when the Public is told to support our troops by going to the mall, you know there is a Problem

Though you have some points, Gonzo, on this one you're dead wrong. The main sacrifices we're making in the current war are economic. We no longer fight war on the scale that we have to conserve fuel or iron or other resources, but it's still enormously expensive. So the sacrifice it imposes on those of us who stay home is financial. This could come in the form of greater taxes, but in the philosophy of the current administration, it's better to generate tax revenue by growing the economy than by increasing the rate of taxation. So additional consumer spending IS a rational form of sacrifice to be made in time of war to help pay the expense of that war.

Aside from directly sending care packages to the troops, which I hope everyone is doing, what would you suggest that civilians sacrifice beyond their money which would have any meaningful impact?

Dave

History gives you all those answers, Vox...

how about starting with putting those "War" costs on Budget, rather than off...so it doesn't skew the economic numbers for propaganda purposes?

how about paying for adventurism NOW, and bearing the sacrifice of the costs of failed policy rather than leaving it for the "next guy" and future generations to clear over half a trillion dollars in war Debt?

how about actually accomplishing the stated goals for "promoting Democracy" in Afghanistan, much less our *allies* in Pakistan (you know, the only Muslims who actually have fucking nuclear missiles?)

how about actually spending the money that has been Authorized for Iraq on what the troops need, rather than attempting to sneak in billions for stealth bombers for a strike into Iran (this latest "supplemental" has that very clause in it)

or even spending some of that domestically to produce the things they need

where are the drives for materials for the troops?

or the outrage of mercenary contractors earning multiples of what our soldiers do, with NO accountability?

it was stated - "what would you suggest that civilians sacrifice beyond their money which would have any meaningful impact?"

do notice the sly shift there...we are talking monetary sacrifice...but the President, and others, claim that going to the mall and buying shit you don't need is somehow "sacrificial" rather than holding drives to raise funds for the armored personnel carriers that are more IED resistant

how about War Bonds to pay for it all, rather than plopping the Debt onto the National high interest credit card?

now, we could get into removing the Source of the conflict...Oil...

i'll leave it to the Readers to think about the Sacrifices and progress required of ALL Citizens to work towards that goal

Excelsior?

Even though no one asked me...

Dave,

I would suggest that civilians sacrifice their time and read up on issues so that they can vote intelligently and prevent this fiasco from reoccurring. I would suggest that they vote for the candidate with the most practical solution for ending this chaos of a war.

"Supporting the economy" only makes war neat and tidy. We go to war to support some junkies' need for greed and possession. We the people bail them out by going FURTHER into personal debt. All at a time when healthcare costs are off the charts and people are losing their homes left right and center.

I don't think you thought this out. You cant throw money at this solution.

I don't know what world some of you are living in, but through fundraising drives at work I've contributed to funds to buy GIs better vests, send them socks (of all things), phone cards, books to read and toys to give out to Iraqi kids. Around here all they have to do is send an email and welkk do our best to get them what they need, though I guess that mainly benefits the few units with friends or relatives who work here. I have to think the same thing goes on I'm other offices around the country and not just at defense contractors like us.

"Around here all they have to do is send an email and welkk do our best to get them what they need..."

What they NEED is for us to get the fuck OUT of that shithole...

"What they NEED is for us to get the fuck OUT of that shithole..."

...and bring them back to THIS shithole.

I had chats with a couple of youngish Iraq War vets over the weekend and the one thing they both agreed on - aside from how much better things were there than they had been - was how eager they were to go back and see the job they started finished. It may be a shithole, but I think it has become their shithole and they understand the idea of commitment and responsibility. They also find the attitude displayed by MCH and some others here pretty damned arrogant and condescending, but I'm not here to speak for them. They expressed an interesting writing for BC so maybe they'll be along in due time to give us some first-hand insight.

Dave

I hope all the veterans (yes, even you, emmy) had a GREAT day!

And I hope all the rest of you who are Americans reflected on your freedoms, even dinged as they are at the moment...

You're welcome.

Amen, and right back at you all, we few.

"They also find the attitude displayed by MCH and some others here pretty damned arrogant and condescending, but I'm not here to speak for them."
- Dave Nalle

For an opposing point of view, see the Iraq Veterans Against the War web site.
(MCH)

#4:
"So additional consumer spending IS a rational form of sacrifice to be made in time of war to help pay the expense of that war."

This is perhaps the most insensitive, self-justifying single remark I've ever read on this site. I'd be ashamed to have written it, especially on Veteran's Day.

Those who truly sacrifice their time, family life, innocence, limbs and lives in the armed forces may be serving their country, but so are those strolling the malls, charging big-screen TVs at Wal-mart, and making the Saudis richer by trading up to a new gas-guzzler!! What an insincere "I have other priorities", trickle-down kind of half-assed sacrifice that is.


Dave, you really seem to have forgotten what the words "rational" and "sacrifice" mean. Visit a VA hospital and show them the Rolex you bought for THEM--and then take a good long look at what they got for you.

To Benjamin: You are so correct!

The only disconnect between civs and military is what you see on the news. The thing is that military backers just aren't as loud and shrill and irritating as the hippie lib haters. Silent majority? I don't know. I sure as hell want to think so; I don't like the idea that America is turning into France.

NALLE,

You've done it again, congratulations! The problem with you and people like you, namely this administration is that while you beat the drums for war and sacrifice, you go on the wires and tell the world how well things are going. While you pretend that this is a walk in the park and American's should go on with their daily lives and spend their money at the mall, you insult the American military and their families. The problem with this war is that it's not a just one and while the American warriors are doing their duty and their families are bearing the brunt, the rest of the American public thinks that our President lied to us and continues to and we are at odds with supporting our warriors, while not supporting their commander in chief. I would gladly grow my own vegetables, ride a bike to work, save soap, recycle tin cans and anything else our country needed from us or asked from us if I believed it was a worthwhile cause and my duty as an American were called upon.
I guess all they need from me is to shop at the mall, keep my eyes and ears open during stage ORANGE alerts (what happened to those?) and make certain we don't elect any chicken shit democrats into power, so the chickenhawk republicans can continue to protect us.

To the author, Happy Veterans Day and thank you for your service and to all our Veterans. Too bad our Country does not fund your health and welfare like they fund the machine.

I will ask a couple of questions that may sound naive:

Why, even though the scale of the Iraq war is so much smaller than Vietnam, is it still enough to stretch our military resources [in terms of manpower at least] to the brink?

Didn't we have 500,000 or more troops at some points in the Vietnam war - and casualty rates much higher than Iraq?

Is this mostly because of the draft - Johnson and Nixon could send those large forces because the draft made the numbers possible?

Some have argued for re-instating the draft, not to get more men killed but to reinforce and spread more evenly the sense of duty and sacrifice. It might cause Congress to think twice before authorizing a questionable war.

Or not.

Just wondering what anyone's thoughts are.

I did find a document that seems to answer my questions in part:

Throughout the Cold War, end strength of the U.S. active duty force never dropped below 2.0 million personnel and peaked at over 3.5 million during the Korean and Vietnam Wars. From 1989 to 1999, end strength dropped steadily from 2.1 million to 1.4 million, where it has remained.

Force structure dropped even more, with active Army divisions, for example, going from 18 to 10. Expectations that military requirements would also diminish, however, were not realized...

Martin Lav [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor] You can pretend to support the troops but with comments like yours you demonstrate your ignorance. You think we're only at war if you have to bike to work and save soap?!? Grow up. I'm guessing you also think terrorists are freedom fighters and GW Bush is worse than Hitler.
Reality, [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor] do you speak it?

[sigh] Nice to see the conversation is getting ... civilized.

Handyguy,

In my opinion, building support for the War by instituting the draft is kinda like, school busing was in the 80's.

I mean there was a draft in place during WWII, but that in itself didn't make people support the War more. I mean being attacked by the Japanese and having Hitler take over half of Europe, pretty much sealed the deal. We went to War for a just cause and I guess, like Joe-Dick Poster above suggests, maybe we should declare war on GWBush, since it appears just to me.

Handy,

"Why, even though the scale of the Iraq war is so much smaller than Vietnam, is it still enough to stretch our military resources [in terms of manpower at least] to the brink?"

Short answer: No draft.

Actually, until about 1992, the US Army had almost twice as many divisions as it does now, (and each of those divisions had more Soldiers than a division does today).

Don't you guys remember the downsizing of the military in order to reap the peace dividend?

Re: the peacetime downsizing:
It seemed to make sense at the time. Now it looks like we overdid it. Of course, some of us think the most recent military adventures were wasteful, foolish, and dangerous. And without those adventures we wouldn't be stretched so thin.

Martin--

I am not suggesting that we should re-institute the draft to increase support for the war. The result could well be quite the opposite - and that could in fact be healthy.

I strongly support a national service requirement that would include non-military options. Most of us are way too soft and selfish. It wouldn't be a magic solution, but it's worth trying. [I know it is politically a dead dog.]

[PS I turned 18 just as the Vietnam draft was ending, so I missed that quandary.]

I support the National Service idea, handy, and for pretty much the same reasons.

"I hope all the veterans (yes, even you, emmy) had a GREAT day!"
- Clavos

Thanks, but no thanks, Clavvy. You mock my service 364 days a year...except for Veteran's Day?

Please, spare me.
(MCH)

You're right, emmy. What was I thinking???

Good wishes duly withdrawn, shuffleboard boy.

I don't understand the point of a national service requirement......

What's the purpose?
What are you aiming for?

Are Americans not patriotic enough or self-sacrificing enough? I mean you almost sound as if you want us to give money to charity, as mandated by the US Gov't.......that sounds almost.........
LIBERAL!

Its a good idea to install a sense of patriotism in everyone. Since most Americans act anything but patriotic it seems to make a lot of sense to correct this epidemic. Lets not take advantage of what our predecessors have faught so hard for. Non-military support is a great idea. We all owe something to our government other than taxes.

Martin asks - "I don't understand the point of a national service requirement......"

fair Question...

i won't Answer for any of the others, but i'll give my Point of View

i'd tie 2 years of National Service to federal funding of higher education, ie: do two years and get a no interest student loan sufficient to cover a 4 year degree in your home state college

then again..i'd like to see the National Service tied into the ability to Vote, in order to make Voting more meaningful, and to get a better turn out...those who sign up to serve (if disqualified due to health or such, you still signed up, so you get to Vote) get the Franchise, and thus a Voice in Elections

this is for Federal only, each State still determines who can vote in their State

just me...but i do think such a program, set up so you take the HS transcripts and an aptitude test, plug it into a computer program which has a spreadsheet of what's needed...and out comes your 2 year job/service

this gives the youngster 2 years of valuable work experience in some field, a chance at college and gives meaning to the ability to Vote

could just be me...

Excelsior?

Cool ideas (and good reasons for National Service), gonzo.

In Mexico, physicians are required to put in time working for the government (usually in the boonies, where medical service is scarce or nonexistent), before they can establish their private practice.

This from #16 bears repeating:

"I guess all they need from me is to shop at the mall, keep my eyes and ears open during stage ORANGE alerts (what happened to those?) and make certain we don't elect any chicken shit democrats into power, so the chickenhawk republicans can continue to protect us."

@ #32 - not my Ideas, really...

they come from Heinlein in "Starship Troopers"....

an excerpt from the wikipedia entry on the novel - "Interspersed throughout the book are other flashbacks to Rico's high school History and Moral Philosophy course, which describe how, in the Terran Federation, the rights of a full Citizen (to vote, and hold public office) must be earned through voluntary Federal service. However, the franchise cannot be exercised until after honorable discharge from the Service, which means that active members of the Service cannot vote. Those residents who opt not to perform Federal Service retain the other rights generally associated with a modern democracy (e.g. free speech, assembly, etc.), but cannot vote or hold public office. This structure arose ad hoc after the collapse of the 20th century Western democracies, brought on by both social failures at home and military defeat by the Chinese Hegemony overseas (i.e. looking forward into the late 20th century from the time the novel was written in the late 1950s)"

there's more...and this Book is not what most who have never read it, claim it is...that piece of shit movie bears almost NO resemblance to what was actually written...and pisses me off to this day

that book, and the Moon is a Harsh Mistress and it's character Professor Bernardo de la Paz, helped me formulate my thinking on political Ideals

your mileage may vary...

Excelsior?

great..another Comment held up by the software...probably for putting 3 links in...

/sigh

it will show up in a few

the gist is that the Ideas i spoke about weren't completely mine, but come from a Author i am fond of

hopefully the Comment clears soon...

Excelsior?

as an anti-nationalist who thinks that our Fed isn't worth a tinker's damn I propose that funding and administration of voluntary service programs be handled at the level of the individual States or even better counties

good luck running the EPA, FDA, CIA or a whole host of alphabet soup agencies on the county level

and those are the kinds of places, as well as the military, that National Service folks would be working

infrastructure projects, prisons, Social Security offices...on and on..

like i said, job skills, a civics lesson, and earning the ability to vote or hold office

Excelsior?

Looking for a different take on Veteran's Day? Try this column written from Baghdad.

how about starting with putting those "War" costs on Budget, rather than off...so it doesn't skew the economic numbers for propaganda purposes?

We've been over this before, Gonzo. They ARE on the budget. They just show up on the next year's budget because the exact amount of the appropriation isn't known in advance. Not one cent of the war spending has not ended up on the budget clearly labeled for what it is.

how about paying for adventurism NOW, and bearing the sacrifice of the costs of failed policy rather than leaving it for the "next guy" and future generations to clear over half a trillion dollars in war Debt?

Gonzo, we're all part of that future generation that's going to have to pay that debt unless you're a hell of a lot older than I think you are. And we ARE paying a lot of the cost now. Look at the devalued dollar. You think that isn't hitting us in our wallets?

how about actually accomplishing the stated goals for "promoting Democracy" in Afghanistan,

Because it's 100% bullshit and true democracy there would be counterproductive?

or even spending some of that domestically to produce the things they need

where are the drives for materials for the troops?

According to the DoD the troops have the materials they need or will get them as they are available. The holdup on newer better armor and newer better vehicles has NEVER been money and has always been development and production time. And the improved armor and improved vehicles we are now deploying ARE produced domestically, which is one of the reasons why they are slow being deployed.

do notice the sly shift there...we are talking monetary sacrifice...but the President, and others, claim that going to the mall and buying shit you don't need is somehow "sacrificial" rather than holding drives to raise funds for the armored personnel carriers that are more IED resistant

Again, there is zero evidence that the holdup on deploying IED resistent APCs has anything to do with money.

how about War Bonds to pay for it all, rather than plopping the Debt onto the National high interest credit card?

Sounds great to me, but war bonds are still added to the federal debt, just like any other debt, and the interest rate at which the general debt is funded is not any higher than the rate that would be paid on war bonds - hell, it's probably lower.

now, we could get into removing the Source of the conflict...Oil...

i'll leave it to the Readers to think about the Sacrifices and progress required of ALL Citizens to work towards that goal

I'm running my truck on biodiesel. What are you doing, gonzo? It's not like the opportunities to make sacrifices in this area aren't out there for those willing to take them.

Dave

You've done it again, congratulations! The problem with you and people like you, namely this administration is that while you beat the drums for war and sacrifice,

I'm hardly in sync with the administration here. And I'd much prefer to see sacrifice and no war.

you go on the wires and tell the world how well things are going. While you pretend that this is a walk in the park and American's should go on with their daily lives and spend their money at the mall,

Building a strong economy is NOT a bad thing, Martin. That you think it is shows how totally you fail to understand the world around you.

you insult the American military and their families.

How is it an insult to the military to want their country to have a strong and productive economy? Makes no sense at all.

The problem with this war is that it's not a just one

The idea of a 'just' war is laughable.

and while the American warriors are doing their duty and their families are bearing the brunt, the rest of the American public thinks that our President lied to us and continues to and we are at odds with supporting our warriors, while not supporting their commander in chief.

Most of us would be happy if you'd just support the soldiers. We really don't give a rat's ass if you support Bush.

I would gladly grow my own vegetables, ride a bike to work, save soap, recycle tin cans and anything else our country needed from us or asked from us if I believed it was a worthwhile cause and my duty as an American were called upon.

Then why don't you do these things? All of them benefit the nation by improving the environment and reducing our dependance on foreign oil. Why do you need a war or a leader to make you be a responsible citizen?

Dave

gonzo - *good luck running the EPA, FDA, CIA or a whole host of alphabet soup agencies on the county level*

so let's start small with voluntary service and teach civic responsibility on the local level - the decentralization and reorganization of your alphabet soup and the elimination of a standing National military can come later

Dave - *The idea of a 'just' war is laughable.*

while I wouldn't pick 'laughable' to describe the theory I agree that it isn't worth the parchment it's written on

Aquinas was an asshole and exemplary apologist for power

I live in a military town and school was open yesterday!

The Hampton Roads area is home to the largest concentration of military bases in the US and the Virginia Beach school system was open for business yesterday. The VB school district has the longest school year in Virginia...not that there's anything wrong with that....I guess the kids in VB weren't good like the kids in Snottsdale!

Since I started working in the civilian world the company I work for now is the first one that recognizes Veterans Day as a company hoiday. What makes that bad is that the first two places I worked as a civilian are the largest two defense contractors on the planet! LM and GD!

I played golf Sunday morning...when I walked up to the counter I said...I know this is a stupid question on Veterans Day, but what's the chance of a retired military discount...the answer...no..it's not a stupid question, but there's no discount and we're charging weekend rates today!

Andy,

How many bases are there in the Hampton Roads area?

Veterans Day just isn't a big enough holiday down here, either. With all the lip service paid to "supporting the troops," once you stop being one, you're just another old fart.

Although a lot of the local communities did hold ceremonies on Sunday, practically nothing except banks and government offices were closed yesterday.

@ #39 - for Voxraven...

all there is to say on the topic...

and i'll leave it at that, cuz yer still not worth *talking* to, Vox

Excelsior?

Very moving column in today's NY Times [local news section] about a returning Staten Island vet and his mother's battles with the system:

"A Soldier Home From War, and a Mother Fighting Hard"

@#47:

Very evocative opinion piece.

Somewhat light on facts, however.

Let me see how many I can count up here Clavos...

Naval Station Norfolk
Naval Air Station Norfolk
Oceana Naval Air Station
Dam Nack Naval Base
Little Creek Amphibious Base
Camp Elmore
Camp Allen
Lamberts Point
Fort Eustis
Fort Monroe
Fort Story
NALF Fentress
Langley Air Force Base
NWS Yorktown
Norfolk Naval Shipyard
CG Station Portsmouth
CG Station Little Creek

Plus there are about another 10 that are annexes...there's even a small base on the oceanfront called Camp Pendleton and it's not related to the Camp Pendleton that's just north of San Diego.

We did have a good amount of ceremonies and the like...but think about those parades with no boy scout and girl scout troops, they were all in school.

The thing I don't get is that companies like General Dynamics and Lockheed Martin, which are easily two of the biggest defense contractors on the planet if not THE biggest, don't give their employees Vet's Day as a vacation day. Yet, when I worked for those two companies, we never got anything done on Vet's Day, because our customer took the day off.

all there is to say on the topic...

LOL. Those 'hidden costs' the article you link to discusses are EXACTLY the kinds of sacrifices I've been talking about.

and i'll leave it at that, cuz yer still not worth *talking* to, Vox

Not if you don't have anything better to do than back up what I'm saying, I guess.

Dave

"Those 'hidden costs' the article you link to discusses are EXACTLY the kinds of sacrifices I've been talking about."

bullshit, in typical fashion...and here's why

sacrifice - the surrender or destruction of something prized or desirable for the sake of something considered as having a higher or more pressing claim.

in each definition of sacrifice, there is the theme of choosing to surrender whatever it is for whatever the Cause deemed so Important...

there's no fucking choice in those costs, hidden or otherwise

spin it however you like in your own narrow and self serving ideology...those are involuntary costs that very few Citizens agreed to

far different that banding together and choosing to sacrifice for a Cause believed in

Excelsior?

Oh, the US citizen will sacrifice, alright. When the bills come due for the interest and principle payments on those war loans.

And now a new report says the cost will be more like $1.6trillion for the war, increasing to $3.6trillion by the time it's paid off. About $21,000 for every USA family.

I suppose most of that money is in the pockets of corrupt war profiteers, like Halliburton and their hangers on.

You'd think we could at least afford a few nickels for the wounded and dead soldiers and their families, but then, why worry at all about those guys? They VOLUNTEERED to go when they signed up, so why should any US citizen have a concern about them?

Oh, thanks to the Patriotic BCer who pointed out to us all that we owe volunteers nothing, really. That's what we need: more patriots to stiff people like soldiers, New Orleans homeowners, etc. Long as they don't try to do that to Halliburton because then Cheney would have to send in Blackwater to debate them into ceasing. Sorta like MacArthur discussing a War Bonus with those nasty ragtag bonus marchers. That's what we need: more Presidents like Herbert Hoover who will Stay the Course and not yield to bleeding heart liberals, and generals like MacArthur who are courageous enough to shoot unarmed veterans.

Perhaps some of the proud BC vets would volunteer as targets? I'm sure we could find plenty of neocons (Perle, Wolfowitz, etc) to general the charge. Just remember to scream "Communists! Communists!" and it'll all be OK.

You're amusing when you're incoherent ^ bliffle.

It's now Tuesday and today was a school day. I'm interested, Benjamin, as to whether you have had a chance to speak to your son's school principal and heard his explanation for his explanation (as it were!)?

sing a song for Rusty
the scrawny kid
pacifist and volunteer - combat...Vietnam

stepped on something big they said
land mine
dragging a buddy out of the shit

sing a song for the medic
the peacenic hero
the bravest fool there ever was - my friend

sing a song for Phillip
the sole survivor
drafted and withered under fire - combat...Vietnam

met his demon behind an Albuquerque Circle K
hot dose of Mexican Mud
running in shame from the smell of his own fear

sing a song for the radioman
the wanna be hero
the bravest fool there ever was - my friend


kids - just say 'no'...put an end to it

Props,troll....

well said, troll...

one would seem to Agree

Excelsior?

@53 - No, I haven't had a chance to talk to the principal yet. I headed down range Tuesday and won'tg be back in the area until late Thurseday night. I did write him a letter that my wife dropped off, so I'm curious to hear his responnse, I am wondering if I should go in in uniform, ACU's or Class A...not sure yet.

"Then why don't you do these things? All of them benefit the nation by improving the environment and reducing our dependance on foreign oil. Why do you need a war or a leader to make you be a responsible citizen?"


Come on Dave, our leaders tell us to go to the mall and spend our money, it's good for the economy and thus good for the war.

Those that don't support the war are made to feel we aren't supporting the troops and yet this administrations parties policies would not support a national holiday that would shut down businesses and cost the economy money.

Oh Dave, wise one, it's not about money that we couldn't send armor in for our troops? It's about logistics? Supply? ANYTHING can be overcome with the right amount of money spent on any of these things. Anything can be overcome with the right amount of American support, charity and voluntarism.
Problem is that Bush lied to the American people, there was no reason or need to go to Iraq and the American people DO NOT overwhelmingly support this war and therefore this Administration has tried disparately to downplay it, take the focus off of it and tell us to just go on with our daily lives and not worry about it. No images of flag-draped coffins, no more ORANGE ALERTS......just sound bites of the positive things like THE ECONOMY is GREAT and we are winning the WAR ON TERROR and blah blah blah and if anyone brings up the negative, well THEY DON'T SUPPORT the TROOPS.

Is it just me or isn't an atrocity of human decency and the most unbelievable form of irony to say and show you support the troops by sending them off to war to get killed, while to want to bring them home and save their lives you somehow DON'T support them?

I can't fucking believe it.....

Not sure about the uniform, Benjamin. It might be interpreted as confrontational, especially if you're trying to be diplomatic about the whole thing. Civvies with a regimental lapel pin or something might be a good compromise.

Or even the hat!

"I am wondering if I should go in in uniform, ACU's or Class A...not sure yet."

Don't forget to wear your "calvary" hat...

"I played golf Sunday morning...when I walked up to the counter I said...I know this is a stupid question on Veterans Day, but what's the chance of a retired military discount...the answer...no..it's not a stupid question, but there's no discount and we're charging weekend rates today!"

I agree Andy, that is quite a hardship. Although I wouldn't compare it to our PTSD combat vets who can't hold down a job, or who can't sleep because of nightmares, or who are living in cardboard boxes.

REMF, Andy's story may not have been a tearjerker, but it was about respect. This holiday is all about respect, a subject which isn't your strong suit. I may think little of you as a human being, REMF, but thank you for your military service. I respect that.

Me, I spent the day with my dad (US Air Corps, long retired).

in the name of Respect - "he ain't gonna die"...

nuff said...

Excelsior?

Clavos, you kill me. What is the deal between you and REMF?

And yes, it is amusing that REMF, the one-note symphony, doesn't understand Veteran's Day.

I KNOW, Baronius, but that remark (which WAS a non sequitur to what preceded it), just stuck in my craw.

He's the great "defender" of those who've served, and yet he makes a snide crack about a guy who spent an entire career in the military?

But, as I said, you're right. He's not worth my pixels.

Is it just me or isn't an atrocity of human decency and the most unbelievable form of irony to say and show you support the troops by sending them off to war to get killed, while to want to bring them home and save their lives you somehow DON'T support them?

The troops made a conscious choice to follow a career in the military. That means that they chose a job whose basic essence is to fight wars. That is their predominant function. To suggest that you'd like to bring them home and have them not do the thing which is their only purpose for existing, seems to me to be inherently disrespectful of their choice to be in the military in the first place. You're clearly saying that you don't think much of their choice of careers and would rather see them unemployed.

Just a way of looking at it.

Dave

No worries REMF, I'll make sure to wear my "calvary" hat. Man, some you folks 'round here latch on to some silly shit - made all the more silly coming from someone who calls himself REMF!

Doc - You're probably right, uniform would be a bit confrontational, civies and a regimental crest seem like a better plan.

Did I say anything about my not getting a military discount on Veterans Day being a hardship? I didn't think so...

Living in a military town gives me plenty of benefits for my military service. I can still use the commisary and exchange system in the area...I keep my boat in on base storage and launch from the base marina...all this saves me buttloads of money. There's more, but you get the idea...

MCH...REMF...whatever you call yourself these days...you don't need to worry about those soldiers, they're probably career soldiers...sucking on the govt tit 'cause they can't make it on the outside...just like me!

You pretend to give a shit about the military and as everybody knows that's been here more than a week, you're nothing but a miserable little boy...you probably drive a big truck...you know what they say about guys in big trucks...little youknowwhats!!!

Where were you when moveon.org slammed Petreaus???

I just wonder what strange mental ailment MCH picked up during his short stint in the military...whatever it is, I'm sure it's nothing that a few sharp smacks to the back of the head wouldn't cure!

"That means that they chose a job whose basic essence is to fight wars. That is their predominant function. To suggest that you'd like to bring them home and have them not do the thing which is their only purpose for existing, seems to me to be inherently disrespectful of their choice to be in the military in the first place. You're clearly saying that you don't think much of their choice of careers and would rather see them unemployed."

well then...what about all those nukes?

are they not gainfully employed by being a deterrence?

there is also a difference (from the view of someone who has served) in defending our Nation, what folks signed up for, and a pre-emptive disaster of a Conflict based on bad information gained from torture (Khalid Sheik Mohammed) and the wishful and deliberate deceit of those with a vested interest (ie: "Curveball")

so there are many military personnel many (like the 5 who wrote that New York Times piece a few weeks ago, critical of Iraq) who are doing their Duty, but who do NOT agree with the Policy...and there can indeed be a valid Argument that supporting our military could indeed mean brining them home and disengaging from a worthless mission in favor of what is actually needed from them

such as Afghanistan/Pakistan

it appears to have slipped some policy makers minds that in the Reality of it, Pakistan HAS nukes and missiles, and recent history has shown a link between the Taliban/al Qaeda and many elements within the Pakistan government

and there's another Way of looking at it, not as jingoistic perhaps...but valid under our societies Free Speech and political discourse

and just as concerned for our military personnel

Excelsior?

*You're clearly saying that you don't think much of their choice of careers and would rather see them unemployed.*

damn right - right on - fuckn' A - word

Good thing there are plenty of mercs available then, troll.

Dave

...realism is highly over rated

...what - ? you mean you don't want to discuss the tyranny of the real and the physics of change - ?

oh damn...takes all kinds I guess

...but I do propose that the funding and military force for the Iraq operation be privatized

"Good thing there are plenty of mercs available then, troll."

oh yeah..because we all have seen how well mercs do

like like when your brother is IG for State you get to bury investigations

you know , like when said mercs are not held accountable for things liek this or maybe this one...

nepotism, cronysim..and no accountability due to the influence of those with vested interests

add to it that mercs don't WANT the conflict to ever end...keeping it going forever is the purpose of their bottom line

we won't even get into the Crusade agenda of the head of Blackwater as revealed in Congressional testimony

and so it goes...

Excelsior?

oh yeah..because we all have seen how well mercs do

Extraordinarily well by all accounts. No killed or kidnapped state department personnel in Iraq on Blackwater's watch says a lot.

like like when your brother is IG for State you get to bury investigations

And you link to a story about a guy who did the correct thing and recused himself from the investigation, showing that he is NOT burying anything - quite the opposite.

you know , like when said mercs are not held accountable for things liek this or maybe this one...

Mercs are always accountable to their employers just like any other contractor. And if their employer is the US government then they are accountable to the people.

nepotism, cronysim..and no accountability due to the influence of those with vested interests

I see zero evidence to back these claims.

add to it that mercs don't WANT the conflict to ever end...keeping it going forever is the purpose of their bottom line

It's not like they have to DO anything to accomplish that goal. There are plenty of wars around the world at any given time to keep Blackwater and Aegis and a dozen others in business, and that's the way it's been for thousands of years.

we won't even get into the Crusade agenda of the head of Blackwater as revealed in Congressional testimony

That would be the religious agenda of his FATHER who isn't even involved in Blackwater. The congressional testimony revealed very little in the way of a crusade, except for a dislike of terrorists. Ooh, how horrible. Nasty man doesn't like mass murderers.

Dave

"And you link to a story about a guy who did the correct thing and recused himself from the investigation, showing that he is NOT burying anything - quite the opposite."

you must have missed how many months said IG was in charge of the Investigation, how one minute he told Congress he was not aware of his brother's link to Blackwater (great investigative skills there), then a few hours later contradicts himself...C-SPAN has trhe footage, was all over the news last night

"Extraordinarily well by all accounts. No killed or kidnapped state department personnel in Iraq on Blackwater's watch says a lot."

as does the 17 dead Iraqi civilians that the FBI and Iraqi investigators state were killed for no reason....plenty of other accounts of mercs gone wild out there..but simple things like facts just don't matter to some

this one fucking slays me - "Mercs are always accountable to their employers just like any other contractor. And if their employer is the US government then they are accountable to the people."

Here's a start on the Reality of the situation... have a read

there's plenty more... those who really want to know can find it all easily enough... as i said, the C-SPAN archive of relevant testimony is enlightening

for the Apologists, no amount of facts will sway them

Excelsior?

damn fucked up a tag...sorry Christopher!

but i had forgotten this bit "That would be the religious agenda of his FATHER who isn't even involved in Blackwater."

just to be informative, here's a quote from a lifelong military man - "Many are aware of the mercenary army, Blackwater USA, led by Eric Prince, former Ambassador Cofer Black and Joseph Schmitz, the same Joseph Schmitz mentioned above. It is here where the ties become complex and suggestive of an even grander "crusade."

As described by Jeremy Scahill in his book "Blackwater," Prince, who attended the U.S. Naval Academy, comes from a wealthy theo-con family, is a "neo-crusader," and a Christian supremacist. He has been given billions of dollars in federal contracts to create a private army. COO Schmitz, another Naval Academy graduate, is a member of the Order of Malta, a Christian supremacist organization dating back to the Crusades, and happens to be married to the sister of Jeb Bush's wife, Columba. And Cofer Black, former coordinator for counterterrorism at the U.S. State Department and former director of the CIA's Counterterrorism Center, who was quoted by the BBC as saying "Capture Bin Laden, kill him and bring his head back in a box on dry ice," brings his own skill set to the Blackwater team as vice chairman.

The Christian supremacist fascism first reported at the Air Force Academy is endemic throughout the military. From the top down, there has been a complete repudiation of constitutional values and time-honored codes of ethics and honor codes in favor of religious ideology. And we now have a revolving door between Blackwater USA, which is Bush's Praetorian Guard, and the U.S. military at every level. The citizen-soldier military dictated by our founding fathers has been replaced with professional and mercenary right-wing Christian crusaders in control of the world's most powerful military. The risks to our democratic form of government cannot be overstated."

that's an excerpt taken from this article

Excelsior?

sorry about screwing up a tag...

i have a comment and link stuck in limbo...hopefully it will be worked out soon...

again, my Apologies, Chris

Excelsior?

just in case..the missing comment was a rebuttal of this bit - "That would be the religious agenda of his FATHER who isn't even involved in Blackwater."

now from a lifelong Air Force officer, who references a book out on Blackwater,in an article *here* we get this excerpt -
"Many are aware of the mercenary army, Blackwater USA, led by Eric Prince, former Ambassador Cofer Black and Joseph Schmitz, the same Joseph Schmitz mentioned above. It is here where the ties become complex and suggestive of an even grander "crusade."

As described by Jeremy Scahill in his book "Blackwater," Prince, who attended the U.S. Naval Academy, comes from a wealthy theo-con family, is a "neo-crusader," and a Christian supremacist. He has been given billions of dollars in federal contracts to create a private army. COO Schmitz, another Naval Academy graduate, is a member of the Order of Malta, a Christian supremacist organization dating back to the Crusades, and happens to be married to the sister of Jeb Bush's wife, Columba. And Cofer Black, former coordinator for counterterrorism at the U.S. State Department and former director of the CIA's Counterterrorism Center, who was quoted by the BBC as saying "Capture Bin Laden, kill him and bring his head back in a box on dry ice," brings his own skill set to the Blackwater team as vice chairman.

The Christian supremacist fascism first reported at the Air Force Academy is endemic throughout the military. From the top down, there has been a complete repudiation of constitutional values and time-honored codes of ethics and honor codes in favor of religious ideology. And we now have a revolving door between Blackwater USA, which is Bush's Praetorian Guard, and the U.S. military at every level. The citizen-soldier military dictated by our founding fathers has been replaced with professional and mercenary right-wing Christian crusaders in control of the world's most powerful military. The risks to our democratic form of government cannot be overstated. "

this correlates exactly with all my direct information from former students of mine in Special Forces, other branches of the military (many serving at this very moment in Iraq and Afghanistan), as well as 2 in the Pentagon and one still in the NSA...

but i didn't want to place unsubstantiated and anecdotal claims out there...hence the link to the Article as well as the spot on Quote

Excelsior?

"Just a way of looking at it."

Quoted for absurdity......


NALLE, You sanctimonious prick. Get over yourself already, I was dealing with a real issue of right versus wrong and not some petty little blog editors ability to point/counter-point the blogsphere universe.

If you think the American Military is on hold waiting for some A-Hole Neo-Con's whim to send them in harms way, then you are one callous M-F'r
and believe that's the job they've signed up for, then you are an arrogant prick (oh yeah you already admitted that).

Their job is to defend this country not to go on some goose hunting expedition as your simple fodder, pushing Cheney's agenda, because he thinks he's smarter than all of us. LIKE YOU DO.

Blow off, blow hard!

"...made all the more silly coming from someone who calls himself REMF!"

Don't get too proud there, Benjie - what do you think they call army journalists...?

Re #22;
"Short answer: No draft."

I disagree. As long as we continue to invade and occupy countries 10,000 miles away, bring back the draft.

And no deferments this time. Make the so-called "supporters" fight their own battles.

REMF -

Clavos was responding to my question about why the scale of the Vietnam war was so much larger than Iraq, and why Iraq has put a strain on our manpower. His answer meant: "Because there is no draft now," not "There shouldn't be a draft."

He and I are in agreement that there should be a national service requirement, with a non-military option. It will probably never happen, because it would be seen as a backdoor way to reinstitute conscription.

Gonzo, your quote in #80 sounds like pure, distilled conspiracy-freak paranoia. Last I checked, being a Christian wasn't some sort of crime against the state, nor was it inherently incompatible with military service.

The Order of Malta silliness is a red flag that you're quoting from conspiracy nuts. It's exactly the kind of thing they like to latch onto and exploit. I'm surprised Opus Dei isn't mentioned in there somewhere.

Dave

and again...read the Article..check the bona fides of the man writing it...and then hunt up some reliable sources YOU can trust to deny or verify

just because you don't like/agree with the assessment of someone who has spent his life in the military...nor accept my assertions from my own sources that this IS indeed a problem...nor the documented facts concerning Blackwater and their connections...doesn't mean there is not at least some Truth involved

there's a Reason i put a Quote in, but linked to the ENTIRE article

but, as i have always said..look at what's presented, do your own homework from sources you trust...make up your own Mind

i think my track record around here for pointing shit out is pretty decent, but NEVER just take my Word for ANYthing... check for yourself

i don't care what something "sounds like"...i care about the Facts involved, and their ramifications

if 10% of what i have presented in this instance is True, it's a fucking disaster of untold proportions...if only 5% it's something that threatens our Nation more than "Terror" or Chavez, imo

your mileage may vary...

Excelsior?

"His answer meant: "Because there is no draft now," not "There shouldn't be a draft.""

Even though Clavvy and I are political opposites and I believe he suffers from "little man syndrome," I do admire the fact that when he was drafted, he actually went over and served and didn't dodge the military; like so many of the conservative Republican chickenhawks that he supports and defends.

@83 - REMF

Brother, I know I was no where near the rear but it's all good. I know what I've done and feel no need to justify or qualify myself. My only point being is really, you going to just keep on with a misspelling? Get over it all ready and lets get to the actual substance of things.

I hope you are right when you say there will probably never be mandatory national service in the USA.

Would you be willing to spread the word about www.draftresistance.org? It's a site dedicated to shattering the myths surrounding the selective slavery system and building mass civil disobedience to stop the draft before it starts!

Our banner on a website, printing and posting the anti-draft flyer or just telling friends would help.

Thanks!

Scott Kohlhaas

PS. When it comes to conscription, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure!

"I just wonder what strange mental ailment MCH picked up during his short stint in the military...whatever it is, I'm sure it's nothing that a few sharp smacks to the back of the head wouldn't cure!"
- Andy Marsh

You got the easy part done, fathead...




It'd be different if he took that golf discount and donated it to a combat vet