Well, I guess [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor] Mark just opened himself up for ad hominems by calling Chavez fat.

Apparently that is not such a problem, as a poll indicates that Chavez--who refers to himself as "ugly" shows him to be one of the five sexiest men in Venezuela. [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor] One can find the poll results featured on Yahoo News.

[Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

Hugo Chavez said from day one, he is following Castro's footsteps, no surprise to us Cuban exiles, I like many Cubans have been trying to warn Venezuelans from this Dictatorship in the making, you haven't seen nothing yet, is going to get a heck of a lot worse, as soon as he has his followers armed and organized there will be no freedoms left for the rest of Venezuelans, Socialism Castro's style is the Doctrine of hate and envy they feed their souls on that, and they use all those that have not been served well by pass regimes, is easier to teach them how to hate the pass and build a new future, a future just like Cuba and every other Socialist Workers Paradise,

Feel sorry for you Venezuelans

Andrade is lying: Everyone in Venezuela has weapons. The opposition even runs several websites in Caracas where you can BUY them.

So the BEST weapons belong to them--because they can afford them.

JP [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]:

There are no venezolanos here. What are you talking about?

Oh, and please include a link to when Chavez SAID he was following in Fidel's footsteps.

Good article, Mark. But I worry: this site is so dominated by one person, even as its overall readership declines. Is it good that we're writing articles for her amusement?

"But I worry: this site is so dominated by one person, even as its overall readership declines. Is it good that we're writing articles for her amusement?"

This site dominated by moonraven?!? Methinks thou doth whine too much, Baronius. She's got a LONG ways to go to catch up to Dave Nalle's over 19,000 comments!!

[raises hand]

Er... Mark. I humbly suggest you re-read the CNN report you link to in the second paragraph. Re-read it carefully.

Then tell me where exactly it indicates that the gunmen were police, soldiers or any kind of government agents.

By all means express yourself if you are concerned about Chavez's policies, but leaping to sloppy conclusions just makes you look foolish.

One other thing (and I can see here where MR is coming from when she casts nasturtiums at your command of English): the word oligarchy refers to rule by an elite group. Last time I checked, there was only one Hugo Chavez.

now now, Doc..

yer gonna get the boy all kinds of confused by all that usage of Facts and Logic and shit like that, you even stick some Questions and a reading assignment in there

an aneurism may occur...or an apoplectic expostulation at the very least

but i digress...

Excelsior?

Good article, Mark. But I worry: this site is so dominated by one person, even as its overall readership declines. Is it good that we're writing articles for her amusement

No, no, Baronius. You've got it backwards. We post these articles about Venezuela to irritate her and thereby amuse ourselves.

Then tell me where exactly it indicates that the gunmen were police, soldiers or any kind of government agents.

Although I'm at the BlogWorld Expo I've been following this story and according to the AP the attacks were carried out by a street gang which is frequently hired as muscle by the Chavistas.

the word oligarchy refers to rule by an elite group. Last time I checked, there was only one Hugo Chavez.

I think Mark is not that far off in using the term. Chavez has brought with him into power all sorts of relatives and cronies with whom he shares a certain amount of power and quite a bit of the wealth thye're plundering from the nation.

[Edited]

Dave

I feel sorry for the americans, with their current unelected murderous govt; their brains washing by their 'free' press; the loss of the tax money to support rogue states like Israel andused to fund wars of aggression, while disasters like Katrina get ignored.

Your blog has the touchingly naive but revealing title: 'A sinister cabal of superior writers'

Well, i agree on that 'sinister cabal' bit...With Dave as politics editor.

But 'superior'? isnt that a bit conceited?

according to the AP the attacks were carried out by a street gang which is frequently hired as muscle by the Chavistas.

Far as I can see (reference: a search of the AP site using the term 'venezuela gunmen' about 5 minutes ago) the AP is just running the same story the other networks and agencies have picked up. No mention there of who the gunmen were. Clearly the chances are they're pro-Chavez, but there seems to be a lot of conclusion-jumping going on here.

I think Mark is not that far off in using the term. Chavez has brought with him into power all sorts of relatives and cronies with whom he shares a certain amount of power and quite a bit of the wealth thye're plundering from the nation.

Even if that's true (and I'm not conceding that it is without further research), you know as well as I do, David, that this is not how Mark or most other anti-Chavez commenters are portraying the Venezuelan government. For them it's Chavez all the way. You're splitting hairs.

Brian: "another attack on Democracy....People may like to view Joh Pilgers new documentary: War on Democracy"

Oh, right ... THAT John Pilger, the great champion of democracy.

That is officially a joke, right??

wow...it appears brian is off his meds...

JuJu knows i'm the first to poke Fun as Mark et al...but somebody seriously needs to investigate some cookies and a nice nap

Excelsior?

STM: 'Oh, right ... THAT John Pilger, the great champion of democracy'

Right, STM, a great champion of democracy, as his decades as an investigative journalism and documentarian show..Glad you agree.....unlike anyone the US can boast.

Gonzo: 'wow...it appears brian is off his meds...

Gonzo...that sound a bit like Bozo....Since im not american, im not afflicted by that need to be on medication just for having an opinion.

oh the Irony...claiming that the U.S. has no decent Journalists...but Quoting from Time magazine to make a point...

priceless Comedy there, kiddies...i can't make shit like that up

Excelsior?

brian..it ain't for having yer Opinion...you are more than welcome to have one and speak out on it all you like..i'll Defend anyone's Right to speak their Mind

it's when Reason is pushed aside for Propaganda that i tend ta take notice

an Example is you posting 7 comments in a row, mostly piss poor copy/paste jobs

another is you correcting someone for conflating Bush and the U.S.....but then YOU go ahead and do it yourself just a few sentences later

act like a Fool, and get called on it by a Jester

just a hobby...

Excelsior?

'oh the Irony...claiming that the U.S. has no decent Journalists...but Quoting from Time magazine to make a point...'

an eg:
the decent american journalists didnt see fit to write on the Downing Street minutes till one month after the eurpean press....the US press has also allowed its stories to be veted by th US military, as well now are known universally for their being embedded(in-bed-with) the US military in Iraq...not going to ensure quality and independent coverage....

that would be the Equality of Opportunity...the U.S. is flawed in that, some points in our History are better than others when it comes to that very subject...

but overall, not too bad a track record, and there is a substantial percentage of the population who work towards that very Issue...we call it the political process...a kind of give and take to make large Decisions for the nation

you might want to look into it...

Excelsior?

Gonzo: 'it's when Reason is pushed aside for Propaganda that i tend ta take notice'

it seems you have trouble recognising propaganda....or propagandistic attacks by the likes of Mike and Dave...

I try not to confuse Bush and america....but its made difficult by the behavior of many americans. Esp those who still believe the propaganda that Saddam was involved in 9-11...

well now...you ain't been around long, or you would know than nobody has given those two a harder time about Things than yours truly...

i have NO problems with Recognition or Cognition at all

and besides basic tenets of Ideology, there's not a royal cunt hair's difference between you and them, imo

as for your citing of American journalist's failures...you appear to neglect their Accomplishments as well... like this...

you're really not that good at this

Excelsior?

'that would be the Equality of Opportunity...the U.S. is flawed in that, some points in our History are better than others when it comes to that very subject...'

an understatement...even the us $ now is in decline...manufacturing has gone overseas to places like China(amazing how US likes to work with those it denigrates....eg Syria), which as we know makes poisonous toys! lack of good health care etc etc

Politicl process...weve seen in the last elections the democrats promise theyd roll back the iraq occupation...and have since reniged on that promise....because they serve moneyed interests not the people who voted for them.

might i Advise you to stick with shit you KNow something about

an example - i stay away from getting into shit involving Venezuela...they elected their Government, it's their business...i keep an eye on the news from Objective sources (few that they are), and have a live and let live attitude, as long as no one fucks with U.S. directly (and no , i have been against the Iraq fiasco from day One...same reasons i leave Venezuela alone...get the Idea?)

in that same vein, as some friendly Advice...you might want to stick to what you do Know, rather than pontificate on what you appear to know less than nothing about

because you talking about the U.S. is about the same as the Author of the Article above this conversation talking about Venezuela...

nothing but a shitstorm in a coffee mug

Excelsior?

people should go to the Pilger documentary at about 23:00 minutes onward for a detailed analysis of the infamous 2002 shootings... very revealing.

it turns out the organisers of the opposition march that day deliberately steered their people to the chavistas, where they had waiting snipers to kill their own people

holy shit...you get busted and completely owned, and you immediately scurry back to shilling for your masters?

so, not only no thinking Mind or trace of spine...but a completely ethically bankrupt propagandist puppet as well...

now THAT is too fucking Funny, thanks for proving my points and providing the punchlines for the Jests

Excelsior?

...*but overall, not too bad a track record*

of providing lip service to equal opportunity perhaps but the reality of inequality remains a hallmark of the American Way

Gonzo, not only am i not busted, im owned by noone, nor am i for sale.

'might i Advise you to stick with shit you KNow something about'

i know a lot about Venezuela and Chavez, and you can to by watching the Pilger documentary ive posted.

'' long as no one f..s with U.S. directly'

Its usually the opposite, except for the zionist jews and their AIPAC, who DO own congress, a lot of your media and yoru government.
Just ask Pelosi and Condi...

et tu, troll?

i Understand your very valid Concern..and in many Ways, i share It...

but i do Think that if one is Willing to do the Work, one can do better tomorrow than yesterday in the U.S.

there are indeed those who get swallowed in our System, through no Fault of their own...and i'm an advocate of working to help those who can't (not won't) help themselves

your mileage may vary...

Excelsior?

brian sez - "Its usually the opposite, except for the zionist jews and their AIPAC, who DO own congress, a lot of your media and yoru government.
Just ask Pelosi and Condi..."

i contend i cannot learn much about Venezuela from a video clip, especially not something provided from a self evident shill...

and the Quote i cited from you in this Comment does nothing to make me think you have any real clue about reality in the U.S.

or you are faking it in some attempt at Satire...

can't be certain, don't really care...just being persnickety

and no one *owns* our Government, silly...it's for rent, not sale

big difference, and further proof of your Ignorance of some Issues...

Excelsior?

'but i do Think that if one is Willing to do the Work, one can do better tomorrow than yesterday in the U.S. '

not when your job is migrated overseas! Thats what many US companies have done...only now thats coming back to bite them in the ass, with the toy stories from China...

I think Brian has just knocked Moonraven off her lofty perch as BC Politics ball-buster. Whatever else he may be, I'm not allowed to say here ...

Brian, Gonzo's right. You need a Valium (or perhaps ten). You're obviously very worked up that 80,000 Venezuelans marched against Chavez' dictatorship and that there will likely be even more in the country turning against him as time goes on and as the chubby one continues to turn Venezuela into another Cuba. This has unnerved you to a great degree, it's apparent. So fix a cup of Ovaltine and give those fingers a rest. Jeez ...!

'i contend i cannot learn much about Venezuela from a video clip, especially not something provided from a self evident shill...'

its an hour and a half documentary, with video clips included to show you what the coup masters actually said and did.

'and no one *owns* our Government, silly...it's for rent, not sale'

its owned by those who fund it, esp the zionist lobby but also corporations...and jhave you forgotten Jack Abramoff?

Mark: 'Brian, Gonzo's right. You need a Valium (or perhaps ten). You're obviously very worked up that 80,000 Venezuelans marched against Chavez' dictatorship and that there will likely be even more in the country turning against him as time goes on and as the chubby one continues to turn Venezuela into another Cuba. This has unnerved you to a great degree, it's apparent. So fix a cup of Ovaltine and give those fingers a rest. Jeez ...!'

Mark, youd do well to try some truth serum...it might improve your blogging. And was it 80000? Another figure has it as 10000 tops.
What 'unnerves' me is those people who try to lie and deceive others with their fanciful blogs and articles.
You call a democratically elected leader a 'dictator'...because youve been unnerved by Chavez popularity in his own country, in latin america and around the globe.
Now a real dictator can be found in the US....

oh my stars and garters...let me play the Recording here...

"Brian, Gonzo's right." - M.E.M.

fucking priceless!!

but i digress...

brian...and hour and a half of propaganda will STILL not really teach me anything about Venezuela..it would take my living there for years, and a VAST improvement of my Spanish before i could even begin to truly grasp the country

now try real hard to think about that for a Moment before typing towards me again...ponder what that Statement says about the subject under discussion, but about my Viewpoint as well...

and you might want ot check my url next to my name at the top of the comment here... i was screaming about Abramhoff and a whole host of other things (with linkages and Jokes) long before he was even indicted...

do try and keep up before making those silly Assumptions...or don't ans i'll keep pointing it out and poking Fun...your Choice

Excelsior?

"zionist lobby"

I've seen the above phrase at least six times in "brian's" comments; ample evidence he's a racist anti-Semite, and reason enough to ignore his every word.

"ample evidence he's a racist anti-Semite, and reason enough to ignore his every word."

well now..one might say that it's important to pay attention to the words of people who say shit like that...that's why i'm all for Free Speech

even if you hate what they say, let them say it...then Remember who said what

can't tell who's Who in Hell without your scorecard...

Excelsior?

'brian...and hour and a half of propaganda will STILL not really teach me anything about Venezuela..'

Gonzo prove the documentary is propaganda? It looks nobody can teach you anything, certainly not the poor or the victims of imperial power. Like most of your kind, you dont care.

Clavos, like most of YOUR kind, the zionist lobby doesnt exist, not does it exert pressure on media or government.

'and reason enough to ignore his every word'

Thats why you remain the way you are...but you cant scrub your memory of what youve read.....you may wish to do so, but you cant. Instead, you can choose to ignore it...thats the way most sociopoaths work....

brian sez - "It looks nobody can teach you anything, certainly not the poor or the victims of imperial power. Like most of your kind, you dont care."

bullshit...i Learn a few Things every day

like the Fact that you appear to be deficient in reading comprehension and thus missed my entire point when i said - "ponder what that Statement says about the subject under discussion, but about my Viewpoint as well..."

and you complete the fallacy when you then attempt to conflate my clearly stating that some shallow surface glimpse of an entire Nation provided by a video piece would not educate me sufficiently to claim any kind of in-depth Knowledge about a foreign culture with "not caring"

i would say your mindless spewings were semantically equivalent to the drooling of a hydroencephaletic mongoloid on crack...

but that would be an insult to crack heads

Excelsior?

Brian: "Right, STM, a great champion of democracy, as his decades as an investigative journalism and documentarian show..Glad you agree.....unlike anyone the US can boast"

As an Australian, and a person given to a left-leaning viewpoint, even I'm often ashamed of the rubbish Pilger promotes. Some of what he says gets close to the mark, but then he spoils it with too much bollocks. His quite extreme left-wing agenda is obvious. In a free country, there's nothing wrong with that, of course, but to promote it as independent journalism and documentary-making is entirely wrong.

BTW, you are probably the most off-the-wall poster I've encountered here, and there have been a few. What is your background? I saw you had written recently that you were in Oz. If you're not an Aussie, how'd you manage to get in? The feds are pretty tough these days :)

"He shoots! He scores!!"

Stan The Man!!!

gonzo, yer right...."Know thy enemy."

Brian. Who let you and your fellow marxist zombies out of the ashbin of history?

No amount of ranting ans spewing pure bullshit is going to raise Chairman Mao from the grave.

Do you not realize that people who live in the present think you're the equivalent of a pplitical amishnan?

Re. Comment # 43:

Damn, Mark, I wish you hadn't mentioned Ovaltine. I'm trying to stay awake waiting to pick the missus up from her sister's bachelorette party. God knows how late that'll run...

gonzo #39 - I've spent too much time around real live impoverished old folk in projects and barrios and on the res to be terribly impressed by upward mobility in our system of winners and losers - note that the concept itself presupposes an 'up' and a 'down'

hunger: it's a dirty job but somebody's got to do it ...a peanut butter spam and crackers diet is one thing when you're a university student and something completely different at 70

additionally imo it's disingenuous to analyze the US economy as separate from the global economy and to offer comparisons like - 'our poor are down right wealthy compared to their poor'

Bah! The hell with all of you! I'm voting for Gustavo Dudamel for El Presidente.

Mambo

Ovaltine. Mmmmm. A nice hot milky one with two extra heaped teaspoons of the stuff to make it extra chocolatey. Go on Doc, you know you need one ...

I do prefer Milo, though, the Aussie equivalent, as it tastes better in cold milk, and since it's hot most of the time here, the rationale is right.

But can you get these delicious drinks in that backwater of real civilisation that is the US, or more specifically, the backwater that is Fresno??

Wouldn't surprise me if you can't as the bastards don't even drive on the proper side of the road.

And they've never heard of Cadburys

troll in #46 - well do i Understand, especially after having been one of those less fortunate and coming from an even less fortunate background...

but i worked hard, and now find myself in my own home, married happily for the last 22 years and still working hard ot try and make tomorrow better

do note i had clearly stated my Intent ot always try and help those less fortunate...part of the "General Welfare" bit that needs to be promoted, imo

for troll...

Excelsior?

Can anyone who supports the 69 proposed constitutional changes that Chavez wants, explain the principles they base their support for it on.

nice tune...but gonzo the point is that when all is said and done - if it works at all then it's gotta works for 'all' and not just for 'me'

paradoxically - that's how maximized self interest can be achieved in social interaction

Franco - brian must be resting his fingers but I'm sure he'll be able to cut and paste an argument or two for ya on his return

I can't come up with much more than a 'maybe good - maybe bad' pov about the 'reforms'

fair enough, troll... but rare indeed are the instances that you can point to to find a better systemic approach than what is used here in the U.S. to provide the most Opportunity for the most People...

the hybrid economies of Scandanavia are the only ones that appear to be doing a bit better, other than that , the inequities are far worse...i'm willing to be persuaded otherwise, but nothing in what i've seen/read tells me any differently

instead, any other systemics that have been attempted have been far worse for those same Unfortunates than what we have here, and they had even less chance for self Improvement of their circumstances

so...what would you suggest/do if YOU were the Galactic Overlord? (besides making certain all your shock troops had clear visors on their helmets)

Excelsior?

excelsior - always forward

as good as the US system is (for those that it works for) it's nowhere near good enough (for those that it doesn't work for)

my suggestion is that we push the idea of cooperation (the same idea underlying the Nash equilibrium equations for example) to its limits

interesting proposition, troll...

but where are the carrots and sticks in your formulation?

how do you Reward those who Work harder than those who do "just enough" , or even refuse to participate?

how to determine and fund for those who cannot participate for one reason or another?

how to promote innovation and invention without said carrots?

therein lies the rub, methinks...

Excelsior?

carrots and sticks are conditioned reinforcers - shouldn't be too hard for 'society' to come up with new ones...imagine a society in which being nice actually warms the hearts of men

You guys have just been blowing it out your ass. Again.

When I am not here to post you either blow it out your ass, or post comments about me.

I am clearly the most interesting thing that happens in your pathetic lives.

Not one of you has even been to Venezuela or knows shit about about Latin America.

And now Nalle is even LYING about information in the public domain--he made up that story about thugs hired by chavistas, as there is a) no such information ANYWHERE in Internet, much less on the AP wire service and b) it simply was not the case.

I still want to know why you folks are advocating that women students in the Social Work school be burned alive by male members of the opposition?

I use that phrasing because it APPEARS that the culprits who held the 150 women prisoner and tried to burn them alive were not even UCV students!

And now Nalle is even LYING about information in the public domain--he made up that story about thugs hired by chavistas, as there is a) no such information ANYWHERE in Internet, much less on the AP wire service and b) it simply was not the case.

MR, I'm really not responsible for your inability to look up a simple AP story or the multiple similar stories from other news agencies reporting on the events last week in Venezuela. They all report the same thing - 660+ stories on last check, that a pro-chavez armed and masked motorcycle gang attacked students in a conflict which ultimately resulted in 8 student deaths.

Dave

But you go ahead and believe that they were chavistas.

You also do a brisk business for the Easter Bunny.

Even logical analysis should indicate that they could NOT be chavistas.

What posible motive would chavistas--HE HAVE THE POWER IN VENEZUELA--have for this kind of act?!

One plus one equals two--except for boobs like Nalle.

WHO HAVE THE POWER....

For those who want to see the videos on YOuTube:

VHeadline.com

Grab the link before it is censured!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm not "censuring" you, ma'am, I'm ensuring two things; the first is that commenters make their own opinions known, not paste in the words of others, whilst the second is that this site is written in English, so I don't want to see lengthy extracts in Spanish.

STM: 'As an Australian, and a person given to a left-leaning viewpoint, even I'm often ashamed of the rubbish Pilger promotes. Some of what he says gets close to the mark, but then he spoils it with too much bollocks. His quite extreme left-wing agenda is obvious. In a free country, there's nothing wrong with that, of course, but to promote it as independent journalism and documentary-making is entirely wrong.'

Me: Left leaning you are not....so dont try to disguise yourself as one. 'Bollocks'? whatever do you mean by that vaguery?

'His quite extreme left-wing agenda is obvious.'

Thats because of your right wing position...You say theres nothing wrong with that ina free country, yet you seem to find lots wrong with it, so either you dont live in a free country, or you or like most 'freedom' advocates, you are a hypocrite.
Its independent journalism....whats more its accurate and truthful. he allows both sides to speak.

Hi Lumpy: 'Brian. Who let you and your fellow marxist zombies out of the ashbin of history?

No amount of ranting ans spewing pure bullshit is going to raise Chairman Mao from the grave.

Do you not realize that people who live in the present think you're the equivalent of a pplitical amishnan?'

Not sure what to make of your dipsomaniac ramble. Are u sure your on the right site?
What do i care what people think? Im no toadying media-angst politician.

Notice how my posts receive no critical commentary...just shrill hysterical ad hominem attacks.

back to Mark: 'Hugo Chavez disgusts me. I hate that fat Commie more than any other tin-Hitler world leader'

NOW why does he rage so much against a democratically elected leader? IS it madness? like the anti-communist hysteria that infecte so many unthinking americans...He doesnt sound very healthy intellectually or emotionally

While President Hugo Chavez has been molding Venezuela into his personal socialist vision, other transformations -- less visible but equally profound -- have taken hold in the country.

Hugo Chavez's criminal paradise

Franco - is it your point that Chavez is not cracking down with enough force on the 'boliburguesía' - ?

WTF, a link to a US newspaper article about corruption and crime in Venezuela, while the US itself is on an killing spree in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Lapdog, that Los Angeles article is writen by one Moises Naim,who was in a former veneszuelan government AND now sits on the National Endowment for Democracy!!....doesnt the LA Times do any fact checking???
In order words, the article is worthless as a piece of journalism.

Franco links to a NED article!!!

Who'da thunk it!

might be why it's labeled opinion

'He has written extensively on the political economy of international trade, multilateral organizations, U.S. foreign policy, and globalization's unintended consequences.'

this is amusing and ironical, as one of the unintended consequences of globalisation has been the rise of Hugo Chavez...
Unintended consequences of anything usually show the creators have been less than honest about their work. Another unintended consequence is the poison toys china has unleashed on the US!

"Notice how my posts receive no critical commentary...just shrill hysterical ad hominem attacks."

What "posts???"

All you do is cut and paste other people's opinions and work; often in their entirety.

There's no point in debating those authors in absentia.

#70 -- November 10, 2007 @ 21:45PM -- Lapdog

WTF, a link to a US newspaper article about corruption and crime in Venezuela, while the US itself is on an killing spree in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Those are good points and deserve to be discussed/debated in a thread dedicated to those interests. This thread is however about Hugo Chavez.

' This thread is however about Hugo Chavez.'

no, its a thread about a manic obsession with Hugo Chavez. Its as Chavez fact-free as any opinion piece ive come across.

#69 --troll

troll, there are a lot of reports from several countries that are starting to surfaces with information on professional international crime on the major up swing in Venezuela. The one I posted is just one. From the reactions of brain, I would say it strikes a nerve. How much of this involves the new boliburguesía I don't know, but just a google on "boliburguesía" brings up thousands of results.

"they are called ideas and evidence...

But, sadly, not your own. And, therefore not worth debating you over. Bring the original authors and we'll debate them.

"...which you prefer to ignore as you go on posting your baseless evidence-free 'opinions'."

Our opinions are as valid as those of the partisan authors you cut-and-paste; but more importantly, they are our own.

You and your clones merely post others' opinions. ...because you have none of your own.

Franco sez:

"How much of this involves the new boliburguesía I don't know, but just a google on "boliburguesía" brings up thousands of results."

Just for clarification, the "boliburguesía" are chavistas.

A quote from the article which goes with the video MR posted:

" ... and if you notice, most of the attackers are from mid-to-upper class families ... some of the most violent people who exist in Venezuelan."

MR has said similar things. What I want to know is how they can tell that THESE students - all 80,000 of them - who dress and act pretty much like anyone else their age, are specifically from the evil "mid-to-upper class"? Is it just because they are university students? My impression is that some students support Chavez, so that makes no sense. Or is it that if they oppose Chavez they have to be from the priveleged class, because no one could possibly oppose Chavez for any reason other than greed and self-interest?

Dave

#84 -- brian

On the one hand you keep harping on the fact that Chavez was democratically elected and we must respect that whether we like it our not. That is what you say you support.

Then on the other hand your hero goes to a summit for other democratically elected world leaders, and he acts like an ill-mannered street protester calling others names and you support it.

brain, where do you draw the line in talking out of both sides of your mouth?

I'd just like to remind you all that the comments space is not for playing duelling quotations, it's a discussion space for people to exchange views, commonly known as dialogue.

Within the context of making your own comment, it's ok to include brief quotes from other sources that illuminate or expand on your own views and you should link back to that source with a properly formatted link.

That means like this Blogcritics is right and like this http://blogcritics.org is wrong. If you don't know how to do that, here is a wonderfully clear explanation of how to format a link.

To refer to lengthy extracts or entire articles, please write something like "there is a brilliant explanation of the point I can't put into my own words here", with a properly formatted link pointing to that source.

All excessive quoting is simply being deleted.

just for clarification - "boliburguesía" is from the linked article in Franco's #68 where it is defined as the new Venezuelan mega rich who are benefiting from the increased organized crime as in:

*The combination of private jets, suitcases full of cash and diplomatic immunity has opened up new possibilities. Recently, one Venezuelan member of the boliburguesía -- the new mega-rich -- was caught carrying at least one suitcase full of money.*

Correct, troll.

Who among the Venezuelan population but Chavistas has "diplomatic immunity?"

From an article in The Boston Globe:

"They are the so-called Boliburguesia, short for Bolivarian bourgeoisie, a reference to socialist President Hugo Chávez's declared ``Bolivarian" revolution on behalf of Venezuela's poor.

But record oil prices and Chávez's efforts to weed out the old-money milieu, which has generally opposed his policies, have opened the door for a new class of rich -- bankers, oil contractors and others who have profited from government spending.

``They're selling like warm bread," said Hector Márquez, a luxury car dealer in Caracas who has seen his fair share of suitcases full of cash in recent months. ``We can't keep up with the demand."

Analysts say that these nouveaux riches are concentrated in the oil, finance, construction, and government service industries, and that their riches probably come from their ties to a state overflowing with money, as the world's fifth-largest oil exporter.

``This wealth can only be explained by their connection to the government, because they became rich very quickly," said José Guerra, a former Central Bank official who now teaches economics at the Central University of Venezuela
in Caracas." (emphasis added)

And:

"Tops on this Boliburguesia list are men like Wilmer Ruperti, one of the few businessmen who supported the Chávez government during a crippling national strike in late 2002, in which many of the protesters demanded the president's resignation."

Sure sounds like a chavista to me.

I suggest you read the article.

"Tops on this Boliburguesia list are men like Wilmer Ruperti, one of the few businessmen who supported the Chávez government during a crippling national strike in late 2002,..."

Clavos, to help us connect the dots how about posting Wilmer Ruperti's personal net worth before and after Chavez was elected.

Clavos, I trust you have read #83?

Google it, dog.

But if you read the article, you'll note that it says he was pretty small potatoes before El Chango (whom he supported) came to power and is VERY wealthy now, thanks to being a favorite and receiving contracts in exchange for his support.

Of course, Chris.

And I trust that you have noticed that I mostly DO post my own thoughts, and even criticize those who don't; who only cut-and-paste???

Perpective, Rose. Perspective.

Mostly isn't enough, Clavos, unless it is in the sense of comments should be mostly your own words. Your #85 wasn't, so you might like to adjust your own perspective...

You're right, Chris.

I will adjust my own perspective...

I'm tired of other commenters attacking me with impunity, so I'll probably be leaving myself less open to such attacks in the future.

The site has become a caricature.

"The site has become a caricature."

Quoted for Truth

but possibly not the way #91 meant, imo

Excelsior?

The subset of 5-10 commenters within the site has become a caricature.

My comment was broader than its context, gonzo.

as was mine...

but you Knew that,

Excelsior?

I did...

HOW DARE CHAVEZ TRY AND GALVANIZE HIS POLITICAL CAPITAL ????
I MEAN HE WAS ONLY DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED WITH A SUPER MAJORITY 2 TIMES, THEN SURVIVED A U.S. FUNDED RECALL AND NOT TO MENTION THE U.S. FUNDED 2002 COUP ATTEMPT.
VENEZUELA NEEDS TO GO BACK TO THE BAD OLD DAYS WHERE THEY WERE GETTING PIMPED FOR THEIR OIL AND BEND OVER FOR THE WHITE ELITES IN CARACAS...

Running with the big democracy dogs and trying to pee in the tall grass when you can't quite get you leg up.

The actions of Venezuelan president for life Hugo Chavez in Santiago Chile on Saturday, Nov, 10, 2007 displayed his personal limits in civility towards other democratically elected leads.

His repeated and disturbing interruptions and name calling when it was time for all to listen during time allotted to other democratically elected leader shows clearly Hugo Chavez's inability to work within a democratic system. People who act that way are not democratic.

This only adds tons of support to the premis of those voicing their concerns that his only use for democracy was to ride into power on in and now is systematically dismantling it and butchering it to pieces just like Castro.

It is this kind of action by Hugo Chavez in Santiago Chile that leave little wonder why Chavez can't allow the Venezuelan institutional balances of power of a true democracy to exist, he dose not believe in it. He can't deal with it so he has to destroy it.

When he speaks of democracy in his defense as he often does, and those who support him do so often, it's only lip server to dispel his real agenda in is step by step consultation of absolute power with zero (0) checks and balances a democracy would never allow to be taken from the people.

I can understand that happening here on BC with his supporters in a come as you are informal arena, but for it to happen in the most formal areas on the world stage where democratically elected leaders meet, allows no excuse for his claming to be a supporter of democracy. Actions do speck louder then words.

Personally, I like the clarity in what his actions have spoken so loundly here in Santiago Chile. I am sure that other responsible democratic governments do too. Seeing it was Spain that he insulted, I think most of Europe finds reason is keep analysis pumping through the pipes of each other's intelligence services sharing info.

There is a brilliant explanation of the point I can't put into my own words here from wittiness to this event of Hugo Chavez at the following properly linked sources.

Chavez told to Shut Up!

It would seem to me that there is more of a wish by those who consider themselves to be on the Right, for Chavez to fail.

What has become habitual for those that see themselves as the RIGHT is stating wishes, suspicion or paranoid fantasies as truth. It's a bad habit but one that reveals more about them than the boogie man that they are protesting or demonizing.

Many of the "right leaning", are fearful of change and anything which denounces the way that they think the world was or should return to (even though it never was). These duped romantics tend to jump on the band wagon several centuries later and declare their discoveries revolutionary. Many of them are the scared in society. They have employed bully tactics as a means of survival, yet they are indeed the afraid among us.

I would then conclude that Chavez is scary to those who project the worst from his success. They fear him. They fear that their world will change. Whether their world will change for the good or not is irrelevant. They are simply scared of change. Their clones will accept the same endeavor 200yrs from now and tag it ground-breaking discarding and derailing the newer more pertinent solutions of that time.

The world consists of all types and that is beautiful, however what I resent is the forceful nearly harassing manner in which the afraid among us push their none agenda.

#97 -- GHOST

VENEZUELA NEEDS TO GO BACK TO THE BAD OLD DAYS WHERE THEY WERE GETTING PIMPED FOR THEIR OIL AND BEND OVER FOR THE WHITE ELITES IN CARACAS...

I don't agree with this at all. Venezuela should be in charge of there own wealth for the betterment of their people. I support that.

But there is a lot more going on with Chavez new goverment moves that are taking true democracy away from the people and Chavez is picking that power up for himself, in the name of the people. What can't his trust them with that power?

I MEAN HE WAS ONLY DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED

Yes he was, BUT now all of his actions clearly oppse democracy. Car to comment on post #99

There are two institutions that Chavez hasn't been able to control, the labor and professional unions and the universities. Even though there have been many student elections in the past nine years in all public institutions, Chavez' aligned groups only get a few votes, typically ending in last place. This explains the recent attacks by gangsters like the 'Tupamaros,' 'Carapaicas,' and 'Alexis Vive' in the last few days against the students. These gansters by the way have been armed by the government with pistols, Kalshnikovs, and FALs as well as grenades and tear gas since at least the year 2001. Chavez wants to create a situation that needs the universities' intervention. If he creates sufficient chaos, the armed forces (the military, the police) will take over. This way he will take by force what he hasn't been able to take through elections (paper ballot elections, mind you, not the finger-printing-electronic-machine type that the Chavez-controlled National Electoral Council has used in general elections/referenda the last six or so years).

Chris - don't go overboard...long quotes in comments can be useful to the reader if pulled from some really long tome of a source which would have to be searched for the relevant content

So the 'King' of Spain loses his cool at the Santagio summit and walks off in a snit. What a royal spoiled brat! It must have been quite a shock to be confronted with someone who doesn't bow and scrape.

BTW, who elected Juan Carlos?

'On the one hand you keep harping on the fact that Chavez was democratically elected and we must respect that whether we like it our not. That is what you say you support.

Then on the other hand your hero goes to a summit for other democratically elected world leaders, and he acts like an ill-mannered street protester calling others names and you support it. '

Aznar has been called a fascist before, as ive already pointed out...You seem to have a hatrde of free speech...Had Aznar not been one, then Chavez would be in the wrong.

Franco: 'The actions of Venezuelan president for life Hugo Chavez'

only if he is elected by the Venezuelan people..you left that out, Franco....you might try for honesty and accuracy. Hmm

Jesus Brian do you still not get it? the 'oligarchy' no longer exists. They moved to Miami leaving the middle class at the mercy of Chavez. The new oligarchy is Chavez and his cronies. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

#106 -- brian

Aznar has been called a fascist before, as ive already pointed out...You seem to have a hatrde of free speech...Had Aznar not been one, then Chavez would be in the wrong.

I have always and will always support free speech. No were on BC can you find where I hold against it. Furthermore there is no way you could have even come up with that fallacy from what I asked you.

This has nothing to do with free speech. Chavez can say what he wants. That's not the issue. And neither is whether Spain's Juan Carlos is a fascist or not. None of any of this has to do with my question to you.

You are using a fallacy and Ad Hominem attack to try and get out of answering a simple question. The question has only to do with your having taken a hard stand with everyone on this site on respecting demonically elects leaders whether we like them or not. Those are your words. That is all this has to do with.

If you truly believe you're own words then the lack of respect and rude interruptions by Hugo Chavez in a world summit meeting at another democratically elected leader would go in contrast to what you firmly assert. So the question still remains.

brain, where do you draw the line in talking out of both sides of your mouth?

Lumpy: 'Jesus Brian do you still not get it? the 'oligarchy' no longer exists. They moved to Miami leaving the middle class at the mercy of Chavez. The new oligarchy is Chavez and his cronies. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.'

Thats laughable,as who are all those 'opposition figures'? The old oligarchs...waiting to regain power, if not democratically, then demoncratically, aided by NED.
Try to get your facts 'straight'.
Chavez is not a 'boss' and hes so far different from anything Venezuelans have had before (and US can only dream of), that they keep reelecting him...Your hatred of Chavez is the hatred of the people of Venezuela and of democracy.

'If you truly believe you're own words then the lack of respect and rude interruptions by Hugo Chavez in a world summit meeting at another democratically elected leader would go in contrast to what you firmly assert. So the question still remains.'

this is risible coming from a fellow who hates Chavez and the venezuelan people and supports their class enemies who were even rebuked by Colin Powell for their racist remarks about black monkeys...

Brian: "Me: Left leaning you are not....so dont try to disguise yourself as one."

Yeah, right, having worked for the Labor Party makes me to the right of Attila the Hun. Nice one. More clownery. At least I've been out there doing it and getting my hands dirty, instead of sitting behind a keyboard and pretending to be a little lefty (with no apparent real life experience, and yes, it's that obvious). You have no agenda except to stir the pot, and you don't do it that well (that's the problem) - unlike some other posters of renown.

Who are you trying to convince, us, or yourself? I reckon you just make all this nonsense up as you go along.

Go back and read your posts to see how off the wall all this is becoming. And really, anyone who suggests Pilger is presenting an independent viewpoint is talking through their bum. He's only more independent in the way an al-Jazeera reporter or a headline writer from the London Sun would be. Some other contributors here are right: you need to take a couple of chill pills before your brain explodes and your computer fizzles out.

Frank: 'Chavez wants to create a situation that needs the universities' intervention. If he creates sufficient chaos, the armed forces (the military, the police) will take over. This way he will take by force what he hasn't been able to take through elections (paper ballot elections, mind you, not the finger-printing-electronic-machine type that the Chavez-controlled National Electoral Council has used in general elections/referenda the last six or so years).'

Its amazing where people like frank get their information...how doe he know what President Chavez is planning? This is why opinions are so worthless!

'If he creates sufficient chaos...' Frank look a bit closer,and you will see for years the chaos has been created by the US backed Oligarchs...Are you so confused that the truth is such a stranger to you?

The NEC is not controlled by Chavez, in the way the National Endowment for Democracy is controlled by the US govt.

Like Goebbelas you hope that by lying often enough and consistently, your lies will be pass for the truth with the ignorant.

STM: 'Yeah, right, having worked for the Labor Party makes me to the right of Attila the Hun. Nice one. More clownery.
...
Go back and read your posts to see how off the wall all this is becoming. And really, anyone who suggests Pilger is presenting an independent viewpoint is talking through their bum. He's only more independent in the way an al-Jazeera reporter or a headline writer from the London Sun would be. Some other contributors here are right: you need to take a couple of chill pills before your brain explodes and your computer fizzles out.'

Labor is not left leaning...it may have left leaning members.
NOW Pilger IS left leaning, and even better is an honest and investigative journalist...Your hatred of him (or is that envy) reveals your political stance.
Not very smart are u.

Brian,
I have no problems where telling you where I get my information: aside from traveling often to Venezuela, having family and many friends there, reading books about the situations (A. Garrido, Blanco Munoz, Barrera Tyszka, Herma Marksman, and others--Do you know who these people are?), I also have heard or read many of Chavez's speeches, where he has said what he's going to do.

And Brian, the CNE is literally controlled by Chavez, so much that the previous CNE is now Chavez's vice-president (BTW, Brian, the fact that you say that the CNE is not controlled by Chavez tells me that you have no idea of what you're talking about).

'aside from traveling often to Venezuela, having family and many friends there,'

no prize for guessing where your friends live or their economic status!

'
And Brian, the CNE is literally controlled by Chavez'

no it isnt....nor do you prove that it is.

Marksman is Chavez's ex-wife...

I said: "the CNE is literally controlled by Chavez, so much that the previous CNE is now Chavez's vice-president." I meant the CNE head, Jorge Rodriguez.

Marksman is Chavez's ex-wife...

Wrong. His ex-girlfriend. Not the same.

#113 --brian

this is risible coming from a fellow who hates Chavez and the venezuelan people and supports their class enemies who were even rebuked by Colin Powell for their racist remarks about black monkeys...

brian, you got it real bad, you can't stay away from those fallacy and Ad Hominem attacks.

I have always and will always support all of the Venezuelan people. No were on BC can you find where I hold against them. Furthermore there is no way you could have even come up with that fallacy from what I asked you.

This has nothing to do with hate for the Venezualen people. They can choose whom ever they want to lead them. That's not the issue. And neither is whether Colin Powell is a racist or not. None of any of this has to do with my question to you.

You are using a fallacy and Ad Hominem attack to try and get out of answering a simple question. The question has only to do with your having taken a hard stand with everyone on this site on respecting demonically elects leaders whether we like them or not. Those are your words. That is all this has to do with.

If you truly believe you're own words then the lack of respect and rude interruptions by Hugo Chavez in a world summit meeting at another democratically elected leader would go in contrast to what you firmly assert. So the question still remains.

brain, where do you draw the line in talking out of both sides of your mouth?

Franco: 'I have always and will always support all of the Venezuelan people. No were on BC can you find where I hold against them. Furthermore there is no way you could have even come up with that fallacy from what I asked you. '

That would be moer believable if you werent attacking the peoples choice for president. Youre whole manner breathes out Chavez hate and so hatred of the decision to vote for him.

Franco: 'This has nothing to do with hate for the Venezualen people. They can choose whom ever they want to lead them.

Me: they did..Chavez...You cant live with that...Dont know why as Chavez affects you and your way of life not at all.

Franco:'That's not the issue. And neither is whether Colin Powell is a racist or not. None of any of this has to do with my question to you.'

I never said Powell was a racist...Powell responded to the racist white Venezuelans. [Edited]

The title is misleading, as Chavez has crushed noone.

Your tactic is to attack Chavez, hoping to chip away at him bit by bit...
So answer me, why do you feel so threatened by chavez as to need to attack him? You and Dave are doing what you claim he does...Pot kettle black

Frank: 'I said: "the CNE is literally controlled by Chavez, so much that the previous CNE is now Chavez's vice-president." I meant the CNE head, Jorge Rodriguez.'

This does not proves Chavez controls anything! Thats just u claiming he did...Nor does it prove any kind of corruption....thats just your assertion.
But much more interesting is that in the US, the Diebold company that manuifactures vote machines is headed by a republican. [Edited]

Now THATS corruption! Thats the sort of behavior you claim Chavez does...and i dont see any evidence for it.

Someone said, "You call a democratically elected leader a 'dictator'...because youve been unnerved by Chavez popularity in his own country, in latin america and around the globe.
Now a real dictator can be found in the US...."

Ah, sophistry at its finest. Yet, Bush was democratically elected but somehow he's a dictator? Now the burden is on YOU to prove how he's a dictator.

Clavos: "He shoots! He scores!!"

Um, that's a hockey term that should be strictly reserved for Canadians. Sheesh, haven't you ever watched Hockey Night in Canada? That phrase belongs to my people! Please adjust or I will take this as a personal attack. Where's CR when you need him, dammit?

As for the site becoming a caricature of itself and Matt's subsequent reminder, I have a suggestion. Remember when Homer joined the Stonecutters? Yeah, you know where I'm going with this. Three words: No Homer's Club. There's a lesson in there for BC.

I'm just saying.

"Me: they did..Chavez...You cant live with that...Dont know why as Chavez affects you and your way of life not at all."M

He's shitting in our back yard.

'Nuff said.

Why worry about the backyard when you're up to your ears in shit at home.

Because this hemisphere ain't big enough for TWO dictatorships, and we've got the totalitarian rights for the Americas.

¡Muerte al Chango!

#122 --brian

Absolutly nothing you have said has anything to do with the question.

You are still using a fallacy and Ad Hominem attack to try and get out of answering a simple question. The question has only to do with your having taken a hard stand with everyone on this site on respecting demonically elects leaders whether we like them or not. Those are your words. That is all this has to do with.

If you truly believe you're own words then the lack of respect and rude interruptions by Hugo Chavez in a world summit meeting at another democratically elected leader would go in contrast to what you firmly assert. So the question still remains.

brain, where do you draw the line in talking out of both sides of your mouth?

@#122:

When you can't win an argument, play the race card, no matter how specious it is.

He's called El Chango because he looks (and NOT because he's part African) AND acts like a monkey.

For that matter, with those ears of his, George Bush looks like a monkey, and I've heard he's white. He certainly acts like one (a monkey, not a white), too.

Right, Clavos. You and your tapeworms.

"...George Bush...certainly acts like one (a monkey, not a white), too."

I'd say his desertion during Vietnam would make him more yellow than white, and more chicken than monkey...

I see you folks had a field day again posting sheer drivel while I was out having a good time!

The big news HERE--as in Latin America--over the weekend was all in favor of Chavez.

Today there was a fabulous cartoon in La Jornada with Chavez singing "You think are the king of the world" to the fascist FEDERICO FRANCO-APPOINTED (look it up, historians) King of Spain.

Yesterday there were several editorials dressing the king down for acting like Spain still controlled all of Latin America as colonies!

The only thing missing at the end of his "WHy don't you shut up!" comment was to call him "Indio" at the end of it.

The nerve of that fascist pawn telling a head of state to shut up!

[Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

As for the original comment, in regard to Aznar--he IS a fascist, as the PPP in Spain ia a Fascist party formed by the remains of Franco's fascists. Nothing incendiary about that--just correct labelling.

Moreover Aznar DID support the soup in Caracs in 2002 and was voted out of office in 2004 because he lied about the metro bombers--said they were ETA when they were actually Muslim fundamentalists who bombed the metro in retaliation for Aznar sending Spanish troops to Iraq.

Facts. Just facts. Nobody ut this beautiful bird ever posts any on this site.

[Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

As for Nalle's absurd comment asking how one knows if students are upper-middle class or not: IF they attend PRIVATE schools in Caracas, they are upper-middle class--and the students who were caught on video were identified as being NOT from UCV (public university), but from private universities--the Bello, in the greatest majority.

Duh.

"Yesterday there were several editorials dressing the king down for acting like Spain still controlled all of Latin America as colonies!"

As you're so fond of saying:

Just opinion; doesn't mean anything.

Here are links to NEWS accounts in LatAm periodicals which DO NOT "dress down the king:"

From Peru.

From Chile:

And from Uruguay. This site is a sort of BC in Spanish. Of particular interest are the reader comments, which are heavily against Chavez's behavior.

As all of you know, there is a three link limit per comment, so these are all I can put up, but a simple Google search turned up literally dozens of accounts of the incident which were impartial, and dozens more opinion pieces supporting each side.

MR, of course, ignores all those which don't support her POV...

I ignore ALL those RACISTS who believe that these countries are COLONIES.

I also ignore VENDEPATRIAS and right wing buffoons in general.

The king of Spain is a racist buffoon and a fossil of the Franco era.

Mexico, thankfully, is full of folks who came here gracias a Lázaro Cárdenas when Franco and his fascists took power in Spain in 1939.

They know a hawk from a handsaw, Hamfisted One, as well as on which side their bread is buttered.

And of course the CONTEXT of the comments in the Summit is not something that clavos and his ilk are even aware of: the abuse of Spain's companies in Latin America--particularly Repsol.

What a great thing is freedom of speech: ANY IDIOT who doesn't know his ass from 25 cents can post on blogcritrics.

And any fossilized Bourbon neanderthal can tell an elected head of state to shut up!

Of course the fossil will pay the piper for that--just like he did in Ceuta the week before!

(Look it up.)

"ANY IDIOT who doesn't know his ass from 25 cents can post on blogcritrics."

Yep, that's about right.

The actions of Venezuelan president for life Hugo Chavez in Santiago Chile on Saturday, Nov, 10, 2007 where he repeatedly made disturbing interruptions and name calling at another when it was time allotted to other democratically elected leader to speak, shows clearly Hugo Chavezs inability to work within a democratic system. People who act that way are not democratic.

During Chavezs time to speak, no one interrupted him. And its worth noting that each leader was given opening allotments of up to a maximum of 5 minutes. Chavez took 26 minutes, and still had not one interruption. Dose this show of a giving or taking personality? Does it show couth or uncouth behavior. Does it show of reason and balance of behavior.

I think something gonzo said regarding anther poster would allow clearly to Chavez

#38 --gonzo marx [URL]

well now..one might say that it's important to pay attention to the words of people who say shit like that...that's why i'm all for Free Speech

even if you hate what they say, let them say it...then Remember who said what

can't tell who's Who in Hell without your scorecard...

IMO, one day, just like he over plays his cards with words, he will over play his cards with military intervention. And his worst enemy and threat will not be the US, but from his own backyard. He can't control himself, he is too drunk on his own power from all the oil money he is personally in charge of, and without any more checks and balances on power in place (which would only be traders to him if they ever questioned him) he has removed all safety nets.

The Venezuelan people deserve much better. The retired General Raul Baduel would be such a leader who is a committed sociliestist with a high level of respect for the constitution and institutional balances of power. I think his serious warning of the dangers of Chavez are one of the best voices of reason coming out of Venezuela today.

"IMO, one day, just like he over plays his cards with words, he will over play his cards with military intervention. And his worst enemy and threat will not be the US, but from his own backyard. He can't control himself, he is too drunk on his own power from all the oil money he is personally in charge of, and without any more checks and balances on power in place (which would only be traders to him if they ever questioned him) he has removed all safety nets."

Are you talking about Bush or Cheney?
I'm confused.....

#136 -- Martin Lav

I'm confused.....

Spoken for truth!

Clavos: 'He's shitting in our back yard.'
Your backyard? Thats an old Monroe doctrine furfy....Latin america is NOT US backyard...

Brain: "Not very smart are u."

A lot smarter than you (case in point: I don't all my time pissing about on these threads), and getting paid for it as well (and in Aussie dollars, not rupees).

How are the studies going, Brian??

An interesting opinion piece published today in the LA Times makes the very strong point that Chavez's plans stretch far beyond Venezuela's borders and are aimed at ultimately bringing the USA to its knees, using our dependence on foreign oils (particularly his) as his principal weapon.

One of the authors, Michael Rowan, is a journalist who lived in Caracas from 1993 to 2006.

The article summarizes with this thought:

"What we need to do is work toward decreasing our dependence on foreign oil generally and the oil of hostile governments specifically. And we must engage in a Marshall Plan of our own to help Latin America rise out of the poverty and despair that catapults populist despots like Chavez into office."

Good advice, which has been suggested in the past by a number of commenters on this site.

You gringos and your government are not going to do anything to reduce dependence on foreign oil or to "help" Latin America.

The Marshall Plan actually worked because the US did not step in and grab all the profits, but actually allowed Germany and Japan's OWN reconstructioon.

The US today is not the US of the late 1940s, but a gaggle of rapacious geese that invades other countries for their resources. Absolutely no comparison.

So far as folks in latin America are concerned, you gringos are shitting in OUR FRONT YARD.

Thay's a fine bit of fearmongering via the LA Times.

I'm sure everybody here was taken by surprise.

Right. The right wing is at it all the time to try and whip up people's fears.

And there are suckers--some of which regularly post here--who spend their lives as shills for Chicken Little.

No sympathy from the beautiful bird. Not a whit.

Just to prove my point that I made above: The US Congress has made a resolution against Iran supposedly fomenting terrorism with CERTAIN Latin American governments.

Congressperson Jose Serrano made a speech against the resolution, indicating that the US policy towards Latin America was wrongheaded and dangerous.

This is one of the best speeches I have read since Senator Byrd's speech against invading Iraq in 2003.

If folks on this site are not the hypocritical warmongers that I THINK they are, they will go to the venezuelanalysis site, where Serrano's speech is posted, and read it--carefully, thoughtfully--and humbly.

It is too long--and far too good--to fracture here by quoting a patchwork of it.

[Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

'An interesting opinion piece published today in the LA Times makes the very strong point that Chavez's plans stretch far beyond Venezuela's borders and are aimed at ultimately bringing the USA to its knees, using our dependence on foreign oils (particularly his) as his principal weapon.'

an amazing bit of paranoia,and ironic given US's long history of bringing other countries to their knees: from Philippines to Haiti...

This sort of twaddle is a sign of real desperation in the US power elite, which needs some excuse toinvad Venezuela and massacre its...sorry 'restore democracy'(regd TM).

Journalist? Not really, propagandist is more likely

'One of the authors, Michael Rowan, is a journalist who lived in Caracas from 1993 to 2006.

The article summarizes with this thought:

"What we need to do is work toward decreasing our dependence on foreign oil generally and the oil of hostile governments specifically. And we must engage in a Marshall Plan of our own to help Latin America rise out of the poverty and despair that catapults populist despots like Chavez into office."'

================================
Someone should tell that propagandist that Venezuela is a sovereign state,and not about to be dictated to by a 'journalist' like Michael...who sounds like he works for the State Dept. The idea this fraud wants to help latin america might be believed indumb america, but he should try hat line in the barrios of Venezuela.

No surprise that the poster cant tell a coup maker ,when he is so forthright in his intentions to overthrow a democractic govt.

Umm, lemme see:

Michael Rowan, who presents an anti chavez viewpoint is a "propagandist."

But Carlos Herrera, who presents a pro chavez viewpoint is a "commentarist."

Well, that's certainly a neutral stance on your part, brian.

And that makes you the "propagandist," brian.

I obviously struck a nerve, since you found it necessary to post not one, but two responses to my comment, brian.

Silly goose.

That's not unusual. Sometimes Brain posts three or four responses to a post.

Sometimes he even posts four or five responses to one of his own posts. - just in case none of us got it.

Come on Brain, give us a break mate. If you are just here to stir the pot and dish out a bit of curry, take some tips from the experts and at least make it entertaining instead of boring the living sh.t out of us.

Just out of interest, exactly what is it about Chavez/Venezuela that provokes such heated and copious debate here on BC?

Why doesn't, for instance, Dave's analysis of the spending bill evoke the same passions?

STM asks (so long ago that he's probably forgotten):

But can you get these delicious drinks in that backwater of real civilisation that is the US, or more specifically, the backwater that is Fresno??

As California's sixth largest city we do have most of the major chains including Cost Plus, which likes to think it brings the goods of the world to the unappreciative unwashed. For an outrageous markup I can get Heinz baked beans, After Eight Mints, Cadbury's chocolate (the pukka stuff, not the travesty manufactured over here at the Hershey factory) and other little reminders of home. There's also a little mom-and-pop store in the next town which imports (motivated by sheer enthusiasm) other more obscure goodies like Christmas pudding, bread sauce and Fry's Turkish delight.

Tetley tea bags, thankfully, are much easier to obtain: they're sold in the local supermarket. Even the darkest backwaters of America know what's needed to stop their British expats from claiming back the colonies for the Crown.

I hate to break it to you people, but all the socialistic furvor in Latin America is perpetrated by certain American baseball associations (who shall remain nameless) in order to get really good players for cheap contracts from countries who go commie.

I give Chavez five points for giving the Cesaer Augustus style of government another try, but take away two points for him being a fatty boombalatti.

FA FA!

Lol. The second revolution. This time because there's NO fucking tea. I'd be arcing up deluxe too if I couldn't get me tea, although it's a sad fact of life too that the Yanks don't know how to drink coffee. They leave it in a pot on a hot plate until it tastes like caramel .. yeech! Very few places over there outside the trendy spots have proper espresso-style coffee machines.

Philistines they are. Hersheys ... isn't that a disapponitment after Cadbury's etc. They do have Mars bars though.

I suppose you realise that while you blokes think these are all pommy staples, they are actually Aussie staples - all purloined in the same way that you bastards stole the corner of our flag and used it for your own (no orginality, your mob). BTW, I did meet an Ametrican bloke in England once and managed to convince him the above flag story was actually true. He spent the night buying beer as a way of apology for his new countrymen. The sad part was, there were a few poms around too and they weren't sure about it :)

Nothing like getting conned by a convict, eh Doc?

No need to blithely and falsely claim all of those as Australian, Stan. You have plenty of beauts of Antipodean origin. Last time we were in Oz we had a whale of a time rolling drunkenly through the Yulara grocery store posing for photos with Giant Twins (yes, the young lady in question did adopt the obvious pose), Golden Gaytime, Perky Nana, Horny Goatweed and other delightfully named products.

As an interesting aside, I was in Santa Barbara this past weekend and the hotel gift shop, quite randomly, had Violet Crumbles for sale. Not Cherry Ripe, though, sadly. Those are good.

People here are about evenly but oh so divided into Violet Crumble people and Crunchie people.

I'm a Crunchie man myself :)

Clavos you dont even know who Michael Rowan is...but its clear he is no friend of the venezuelan people.
He writes for this group: Petroleum World whose focus is on oil.

Rowan is not a 'commentarist'(neolism?), he is an ajitator and propagandist bent on the overthrow of the state of venezuela. Hes hardly any sort of investigative journalist.

an interesting observation. Here is an article by Rowan, adn his imaginations of a conversation (all his stuff is imagination) The following comment follows the article:

'From: Charles Martin, Nicaragua
According to the mainstream press, journalists in Venezuela aren´t allowed to write articles like that. Is Michael Rowan in prison now for writing this?

From: Liliana, Washington, DC
Good observation, Charles! The mainstream press has been wrong about press freedoms in Venezuela -- journalists can write anything they wish. No censorship exists.'

SO Rowan is in Caracas AND not in jail! Odd isnt it!

If commentarist is a neologism (not neolism), it was in your comment #144:

"VHeadline commentarist Carlos Herrera writes:..."

Also, I never claimed a) That rowan was "a friend of the Venezuelan people;" it's not relevant to his commentary on chavez, or b) that he was an "investigative journalist." The piece to which I linked is an opinion piece,and I said so in my comment, which is more honest than the vast majority of your cut-and-pastes; also opinion pieces, but which you never mention as being such.

The Rowan piece I linked, BTW, was published in the Los Angeles Times, so he obviously writes for more than just an oil industry trade paper.

Your tactics are transparent and simplistic, brian. You attack everything anyone posts that says anything remotely negative about chavez , regardless of source (and usually fallaciously),and then follow up with an onslaught of pro-chavez pieces that you claim to be "truth."

You're not fooling me or anyone else, brian, and the only people paying attention to you are those who agree with you.

"...take some tips from the experts..."

Big hats no cattle.

Just out of interest, exactly what is it about Chavez/Venezuela that provokes such heated and copious debate here on BC?

Why doesn't, for instance, Dave's analysis of the spending bill evoke the same passions?

Because internationalist Marxists who are paid to blog on behalf of the 'movement' aren't interested in US domestic policy?

Just a theory.

dave

Dave: I'm not sure these blokes are getting paid to spruik this stuff ... they're just madder than cut snakes and don't have anything bett