Why have we not had one in over 200 years?

Because as I think is abundantly clear, we've had no problem getting the resolutions which were supported by anywhere near the number of states needed to call an Article V convention through the Congress without having to actually call a convention.

Dave

More perverted "logic". Joel, if you don't vote, how the hell can you change anything. You're just playing into the hands of the two main parties.

Better to do what we do in Australia - introduce compulsory voting and make everyone vote (surprising how easy it is to rock up to the local public school on a Satutrday and get your name crossed off the list - last time in the state election, it took me 10 minutes from parking my car to sticking my vote in the ballot box).

The thing is, the parties know they have to listen to us, and without resort to manufactured issues pushed by lobby groups that we know are bollocks.

This coming federal election is being fought on good old bread-and-butter issues, and Australians are looking forward with great delight to giving comeuppance at the polling booth to a government that has become (this should sound familiar) tired, arrogant and inflexible.

You should be agitating for a process that gets more Americans involved in the electroal process (read: all), not less.

And for those who say it's an assault on personal freedoms and liberties, so is: getting a driver's licence, forcing kids to go to school, paying taxes, paying parking/speeding fines, etc etc etc.

Citizenship carries certain obligations, and one of those is to exercise your civic duty. Voting in a free and representative democracy is privelege, not just a right.

Wake up America, before the bastards rob you of what few rights you have left!

Story on BC as political narcotic.

Joel, you should be pushing for compulsory votingb to engage the entire community in the political process, rather than suggesting people don't vote.

That's perverted logic. You don't vote, you change nothing - and the bastards take away even more of the few rights Americans seem to have left.

And for those who think compulsory voting is an assault on a citizens' right, you could argue the same thing about compulsory driver's licences, taxes, schooling, parking fines, etc etc etc.

Make them (the major partuies) listen to YOU, rather than have them manufacture bollocks issues that totally polarise the voting intent. Keep it to bread-and-butter issues and punish tired, arrogant governments that have given up listening to the people who voted them in in the first place.

The place to punish and humiliate them? At the ballot box.

Stop voting, and you'll lose what freedoms you have left. Wake up America and smell the bullsh.t.

Ask Australians what they think of compulsory voting ... good, would be the standard response to that. Why? Because it gives us the power, all of us, not them.

Stan, is there much of a career for used garden gnomes with one facial expression?

Sure, Doc. They come here and run for prez.

Lol. I'd gladly have Little Johnny head off over there ... but would it be fair to America? Yes :) Geez, there's a thought - Howard as leader of the free world. Fuck.

This is the most boring election ever in Australia, BTW ... with the two most boring prime-ministerial candidates ever. Rudd's just a Labor-style clone of Howard.

At least he's been to a strip club though, and claims he once had to live in his mum's car when his dad died and the family had to leave the farm - so he gets my vote :) But I don't think Howard's ever done anything wrong (apart from remove workers' rights that existed for over a century), and in Australia that's never going to win you any friends.

Those two STM posts above are supposed to be the same, but they're not - one didn't work and seemed to vanish into the ether, and I couldn't remember what I'd written (as usual)

If compulsory voting meant we paid more attention to the scoundrels in office, then it would be an improvement. Apathy doesn't work on crooks.

Because all politicians hate term limits, it must be a sound idea.

In many places in the U.S., now and throughout our history, it doesn't matter as much who votes as it does who counts the votes. It's always been the cheapest and simplest way to rig elections.

good stuff Joel...I suggest that you rework your opinion pieces down to 750 - 900 words -

Troll, he could do an even better job by just posting a link to his last virtually identical article.

Dave

Joel, you can't have a protest that's indistinguishable from apathy. You need to open the window and scream "I'm mad as hell and I'm not gonna take it any more". You're advising people to close their windows and scream it, and that's pointless.

It's like boycotting a Robin Williams comedy. No one's going to show up anyway, so you can't claim credit for anything.

Gringos are dependent on every other kind of drug. Why not be dependent on the drug of voting.

Nobody counts their votes anyway--so it's about the same as shoving them up their noses.

Moon, you're a gringo.

ATTENTION ALL DUMBOCRATS - Send a message to Washington!!!! Prove that you hate Bush!!

DONT VOTE IN THE 2008 PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION

That will show them!!!

JOM

PS Joel keep up the good work (yee yee LOL)

Heres the title of Joels next post...

Boycott the Boycott!

JOM

Joel has the right diagnosis but the wrong cure. Compulsory (actually, incentivised) voting is better, as the Australians have pointed out. You don't want to incentivise even more slackers: they're the easiest for dictators to rule. Too passive: until the damn bursts and then everyone is killed in a holocaust.

Hi Joel and happy Halloween!

You mention democracy quite a few times and I just have to point out that Jefferson said "Democracy is tyranny of the masses". He didn't like it. That aside I would say our Republic is functioning - not as it should but functioning. As an example I would love to see a change in Social Security. I am a firm believer in personal savings accounts and certainly in self directed savings. But not everyone believes the way I do. My will is defeated on that issue. Does that mean my vote is unimportant? No. It just means that we have a homogenous government where everyones opinion is considered but not all are accepted.

The republicrats and demlicans are becoming more and more difficult to distinquish. They have to be palatable to all ilks. They end up undesirable to all.

Why would anyone support compulsive voting? To get the ignorant morons to the polls?

The less other people vote, the more your vote counts. Don't water it down with the votes of embeciles.

Oh yeah, unless you think your party will get the votes of most lazy morons. (I suppose that does explain why Democrats seem to push more for this idea)

They know that the lazy apethetic crowd, if forced by threat of law to the polls and all else being equal, will vote for the party that promises to take away some hard working person's money away and give it to them.

MR sez - "Native Americans are not gringos, paleface."

yet, in another comment on another Thread she brags about her "strawberry blonde hair"

now..correct me if i am mistaken, but black hair is the norm for Native Americans, and black hair is a donminant gene, whereas blonde and red are both recessives

so, how does one with predominantly "Native American" DNA have a double recessive hair color?

but i digress...

Joel...give it the fuck up, d00d

what you fail to realize time and time again, is that your idea of a boycott is worse than a failure...for a number of reasons

not the least of which is the very simple Fact that if only ONE vote is cast....they win and the election is LEGAL!

Bob Novak once quipped on the air - "I like low voter turnout, it lets our base win easily"

time to cash your Reality check...

Excelsior?

gonzo - 3 points

1 - as it makes no difference whether a Dem or Repub wins who cares what Novak likes - ?

2 - there is a point at which low turnout will no longer be seen as apathy

3 - the organization underlying a voter boycott will serve further other acts of civil disobedience eg tax boycotts

Gonzo marx: your stupidity and inability to read and understand what I write is remarkable: You say: not the least of which is the very simple Fact that if only ONE vote is cast....they win and the election is LEGAL!
I say: IT DOES NOT MATTER WHICH DEMOCRAP OR REPUBLICROOK WINS - you seem intellectually incapable of understanding any of the substantive points I raise.

Troll, on the other hand, has a brain and uses it.

Joel - gonzo's a bright lad...don't dismiss his objections without consideration

gonzo: You may be a bright lad but you apparently did not read what I posted elsewhere a few months back--that I have strawberry blond hair because of a Norwegian in the genetic woodpile back in the day.

I am not complaining--with light olive skin strawberry blond hair is particularly striking--and olive skin is not thin like the typical pale redhead skin which ages poorly.

Lucky me--unusually beautiful, in all respects.

...a gawd dam goddess I tells ya

You had damn well better believe it!

Lucky me--unusually beautiful, in all respects.

Hey! Things are looking up. Finally, Moonraven displays a glimmer of a self-deprecating sense of humor.

Good for you, Moonraven! Maybe you're not the insufferable, egomaniacal, pretentious twit that I thought you were.

Carrion.

I mean, carry on.

Too bad for all you ugly people out there.

It's not my fault. I am not your mothers.

I am NEVER self-deprecating--humorously or otherwise. I think VERY highly of myself, in fact.

Self-deprecation is for stupid ugly people. They are, of course, right to hold that attitude.

compulsory voting? now that is an idea so stupid it almost makes hirschhorn's halfwitted article seem intelligent.

how on earth would election results be improved by adding in the random votes of the uninformed, unmotivated and idiotic masses? it would just increase the power of celebrities to get elected.

here comes president Oprah. Yay.

for troll....

1 - he refers to himself as the "prince of darkness" for a Reason...lesser evil thinking here...

2 - no...no there isn't...no matter how low the turnout gets, those who "win" will always claim a mandate and do what they will...even easier to put the *fix* in if nobody opposes it at all

3 - show me...if such was the case, where are those acts of civil disobedience now? why aren't folks like Joel here in front of the Capitol screaming daily?

sorry troll, my brother from another mother, but i ain't buying it...as we have discussed before...

no, as for Joel...he sez - "Gonzo marx: your stupidity and inability to read and understand what I write is remarkable:..."

for the Record...you fucking began with an Insult...so on yer head comes the rest

Joel, for each and every time you have written the same half assed, poorly thought out drivel, i and others have explained to you not only how utterly ridiculous your thesis is, but how fallacious the axiom that you base all your tautology upon remains in every purely objective sense...

thus each and every time you re-write the same bullshit drivel, you merely repeat the same mistakes and bring nothing new to the discussion...

you state - "I say: IT DOES NOT MATTER WHICH DEMOCRAP OR REPUBLICROOK WINS - you seem intellectually incapable of understanding any of the substantive points I raise."

actually, i Understand the entire Issue much better than you appear to be capable of..you raise very few substantive points, and your entire argument is based on the false premise that somehow boycotting elections will bring *power* to the Citizens rather than disenfranchise them and enable the crooks you rail against even greater latitude to do as they like

there ARE some differences between the two...and there is plenty of room to organize and create new Parties..if popular enough, they win elections...if not, that's how our System works

NEVER would i allow intellectual midgets and the ethically bankrupt as well as the shortsighted gain ANY kind of Power over our Constitution...the potential damage to be wrought would mean i would gladly sacrifice my own Liberty to thwart such blasphemy

now..just to show exactly what i mean as pedantically as possible, let me break down ONE of the basic fallacies you are utilizing as an axiom, and why it renders ALL of your breathless ranting moot...

you keep stating that boycotting elections will bring about some kind of change for the better

the Reality that you fail to realize here, which makes you completely wrong...is that NO MATTER WAT, about 25% of the eligible population will ALWAYS vote R and the same percentage vote D...the elections are decided by the Independents and which way they Vote

therefor by removing the other half of the Voters of said boycott, you leave ALL the results of the elections up to the hard core partisans of each Party's base...negating ANY positive outcome that you feverishly envision

can't make it ANY more plain than that, you may disagree, but to do so is abject denial of objective Reality, and thus not mentally competent much less Worthy of discussion on the topic...

as for your pitiful Insult, i'm going to let it go this time, but do be warned, step up or step off...fuck with yer gonzo and find out just how close to the edge of the ToS around here i can go without getting edited...very few have the kind of Skill i have demonstrated around here in such banter...you've be Warned

moonraven - well then, since you happily admit you are NOT pure blooded Native American...then this makes you just as much a mutt as every other American, and just as much a "gringo" for all your protestations to the contrary

as i stated in my earlier comment with the little genetics lesson, your percentage of Native American ancestry much be a small one indeed for the double recessive (red+blond hair for the "strawberry" coloring)...one wonders what color eyes you have...not that it matters

for all your bluster, you continuously misrepresent yourself as something you obviously are not

you are just as much another American...a mutt, as the rest of U.S.

for troll...

Excelsior?

When did Waits' voice get that gravelly? It's kinda cool!

Clavos, it started when he began smoking at the age of 6, drinking whiskey at the age of 9 and singing 2 shows a night for the next 40 years. When has his voice NOT been gravelly?

And that selection should have been for Stan, not for Clavos. Here for you is a very early Waits clip where he voice is plenty gravelly.

Dave

Dave,

C'mon, his voice hasn't been THAT raw all these years. Did you listen to the clip?

Sounds like he sandpapered his vocal cords.

he puts that voice on. even now he can sing without it. seriously.

for the Record..the clip i linked to is ancient, from the "Old Grey Whistle Test" show...at least 30 years old, mebbe more

a newer clip, the tune was used for the HBO series, the Wire, as the opening theme... here ya go...

imo, Waits is one of the premier Performance Artists of our Time...a creative genius like no other with a huge body of Work

but i digress...

Excelsior?

Gonzo's clip wouldn't fully load for me so I didn't get to actually hear it.

Waits is indeed a musical phenomenon, but he's also a primadonna who now refuses to perform in Austin because he and his entourage got kicked out of a bar on 6th street.

Dave

Joel,

It's not the politicians, it's the people. The elected officials reflect us perfectly.

Complain if you will but Americans live better than the people of this planet and better than human beings have EVER lived.

What is deficient are the elements that brought us where we are. Many are now illegal (racial, ethnic and economic exploitation). However we have gone soft in as far as our intellect. We are highly dependent on possessions to the extent that we are neglecting to raise our children, so they are dumb, unimaginative, opinionated occupiers of space. Add the immigration crises and good luck to our future.

sounds more like free market at work than any kind of prima donna allegations...

after all, it's his Act and he can play wherever the fuck he likes...or not...

Excelsior?

Lumpy: "compulsory voting? now that is an idea so stupid it almost makes hirschhorn's halfwitted article seem intelligent."

Just because it's not invented in America doesn't mean it doesn't work. If you've never had experience of it, you're probably not entitled to comment with any knowledge about its validity (or not).

Our experience: It forces the entire voting population to become engaged in the political process. That means EVERYONE is aware of what the politicians are up to. We've been using it in Oz for nearly a century.

The other upside: it forces politicians to listen, because they know they can't enlist lobby groups and the like to try to sway the vote because people are too clever to fall for it (mostly). Usually, that stuff backfires. It often comes down to bread-and-butter issues, and we like it just fine. The best way to humiliate a government grown tired and arrogant is to remove at the polls - in a landslide. Here, that often means not being in power for at least another decade, so there's the stability aspect as well.

The way you guys are going lately, maybe you should try something different. Take government out of the hands of high-funding lobby groups and give it back where it belongs: to the people.

It works just fine in my experience, having seen both systems in operation. IMO, better, actually.

There's a lot less political turmoil and navel gazing in this country than there is in the US, and way less bullsh.t around election time.

I favor compulsory voting as it would:

1 - display the coercive arrogance of government

2 - provide a 'target' for the disloyal opposition to organize around

in retort....

1 - /agree

2 - i saw ya palm that *ace*

Excelsior?

Love that dawg!

I'd guess ya know how I feel about aces and such

It doesn't matter if the people are forced to vote or not. If they are empty cartons... you get Bush Iraq and whatever unbelievable else that lies around the bend because of our abysmal ignorance. In a system like ours you will get politicians that reflect the people.

"Dave, C'mon, his voice hasn't been THAT raw all these years. Did you listen to the clip? Sounds like he sandpapered his vocal cords."
- Clavos

Wow, mark it on the calender!! Clavos disagreeing with Nalle...

Have to agree w/bliffle & STM: compulsory voting - not non-voting - is what will get the barsteds if anything will outside of the rather more drastic solution of setting up a guillotine at the foot of Capitol Hill (which is the one I like best. I'll bring my knitting).

First, you must make the political system honest and trustworthy through a voting boycott that forces the power elites to surrender and give back the government to we - the sovereign public.

Second, through a number of political reforms you make it reasonable to also institute mandatory voting.

Right now it is illogical and stupid to make voting mandatory when the political system is so utterly corrupt and untrustworthy.

Joel - how do you respond to the criticism that there is no point at which a boycott won't be convincingly propagandized as apathy - ?

A boycott of voting boggles the mind in its naiveté.

As was pointed out upthread, if just one person votes, the whole idea is down the drain.

To think that this fractious, fragmented and "diverse" nation would actually comply with such a plan is naive in the extreme.

the purpose of a boycott is not to legally nullify the election - it is to make a political statement about forced choice US elections and the elite that they empower

it is a logical place to start organizing a rebellion

perhaps the naivety is yours

What I keep seeing in so many of the comments is the presumption (or unquestioned belief) that the CURRENT political system is worth preserving -- or that there is something you don't want to lose -- or that we could create a worse system; I reject all such thinking as delusional, immature and uncritical. We have reached such depths of corruption and dishonesty that we must use extreme, revolutionary methods. The label of apathy is just a clever, semantic ploy of the power elites; you must dig deeper than such a superficial label; the vast majority of nonvoters see voting as useless and even if they were truly apathetic (uncaring), then that is a result of witnessing our dysfunctional and awful political system at work -- that is, not really serving the interests of most Americans.

revolutionary methods presuppose a constructive side - what do you propose to replace the 'status quo' with ...got any specific notions - ?

"the purpose of a boycott is not to legally nullify the election - it is to make a political statement about forced choice US elections and the elite that they empower"

I understand that, troll.

Just don't think an impressive enough number of cantankerous, ornery, disagreeable, stupid, arrogant americans will go along to make any real impression on the cantankerous, ornery, etc. pols.

Some (probably many) WILL vote, the pols will take it as a mandate (as they do now, with the incredibly low turnouts we already have) and poof!

No message...business as usual.

Clavos - I would expect business as usual under the continuing myth of legitimacy from the pols even after participation falls below 20%...the question is what will the boycotters do at that point

Gonzo,

Thanks to you palefaces who raped native women, I do not know of a single Native American who doesn't have a few pale genes floating in his or her woodpile.

I suggest that you consult the requirements for tribal membership before you refer to a beautiful, intelligent native woman from the Mohawk Nation as a "mutt".

YOU are the mutt, Fido--with the spectacular lack of manners of the rest of the underclass of palefaces--familiarly referred to as white trash.

mr - i'm a Proud mutt, who Recognizes genetic Truth when it arises

all Americans are mutts, but few are bitches...

and i am unaware of the particular requirements of the Kanien'kehake...so do Enlighten

is it 1/2 blood?

1/4?

1/8?

you correctly mention one of the many instances of differences on both sides of the blanket, yet fail to mention many of the others...much less contemporary situation in the last 100 years or more when such relations are completely voluntary on both sides involved

and as i stated, strawberry blonde is a double recessive trait...so claim whatever you desire, use lawyer language to justify it all you please

doesn't change the Fact that you, O carrion eater, are still a mutt...

Excelsior?

[Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor] Just beautiful, intelligent and a native woman.

I suggested that YOU [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor] look up the requirements for tribal membership. I have NO need to do so. If you don't want to know something, do not use this forum [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor].

too funny carrion Eater...

firstly... no need for genetic research, that Info is readily available...

and according to this source it appears 50% is Required... subject to dilution as those with half blood marry outside the Tribe over the generations...

now, well can i Understand that there are Variations , depending on tribal council and other factors... but the St Regis constitution appears to be a solid example

i was trying to give YOU the chance to state your case from your point of View...

you chose invective and puerile attempts at Insult instead, naughty bird brain

so, when you can stop lying and making shit up to fit your feeble mewlings of satirical performance "art" based on this unsavory persona...

Do let U.S. know...

[Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

Excelsior?

Didn't even understand the tribal requirements, huh? Doesn't surprise me. I HAVE no case to state--from any point of view.

My being beautiful, intelligent and a Native woman are not a CASE, [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]. If I belong to a tribe, that's IT--period. YOU [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor] do NOT decide who is native and who isn't.

WE decide. And then we take your stinking scalps.

Evolution favors mutts.

Prebreds are hard to develop and degenerate quickly. Witness those Germans that tried to make a purebred Master Race a few years ago. Didn't work out well for them.

ah, mr...you still can't seem to grasp simple English, can you?

i read and comprehended the Requirements i linked to quite clearly...noting that it was the rules for one particular tribal Council

as for your panicked third paragraph...i never made any statements contrary to your assertions there, merely brought up inconvenient Facts based on your own typings and simple axioms of genetics from Mendel onward...

as for my scalp...good luck trying to collect that Prize, better than you have tried

dew neh loh moh!

Excelsior?

I see gonzo has been reading deep literature again--jabberwocky, eh?

[Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

once again, the bird brain is completely wrong...

46 and in my own home, always gainfully employed...currently as a systemic diagnostician in electronics

oh yes..i don't own any "pj's"

don't you get ever get tired of assuming things that you demonstrably know nothing about?

i guess you are just like W on that personality trait...

Excelsior?

In that case you are WAAAY too old to have such an infantile personal style.

Time to grow up.

lmao..sez the fake bird...

you may continue to Amuse me as you like, mr

your demonstrations of Ignorance, prejudice and bigotry are like the salt in our little bowl of Net stew...

but it's the Irony arising from your inability to be factually correct in many instances that elevates to the sublime

Excelsior?

PS: I am not only ALWAYS factually correct, but I am always RIGHT.

Get over it. We can't all be beautiful, intelligent and native. You this poster.

Just this poster.

well, we do know how much you enjoy things that taste....salty

but i digresss...

Excelsior?

Like I said, Moon, you're the McDonald's-eating American trash as long as you hold that US passport.

Never been in a McDonald's in my life. Nor any other white trash haven.

In that case, you know better than to stereotype your fellow American citizens.

You stereotype yourselves.

I really could not possible give a shit.

You're one of us, yankee.

Not a chance, paleface.

I would hack off your scalp in a heartbeat.

Yeah, whatever. You've got the American passport; you're an American. USA! USA! USA!

Only 15 year old druggies living at home with their mothers say "Whatever".

You do not even HAVE a passport.

And this bird is flying off the green enchiladas.

Have fun playing with yourself.

Again, stereotypes. What do you consider to be the erudite reply to a threatened scalping?

Oh boy, a mudwrestling contest between moonraven and Baronius!! Five bucks says moonie smothers him with her boobs!

Impossible. Unless he gets down below knee level.

^ Yeah, well she's "knocked" you around pretty good in those mud matches in the past, Clavvy...

And since you're 5'6", Baronius wouldn't have to get THAT low...

And since I am 5'10"....He might have to stand on tippy toes.

Well, you've done a pretty good job in the past knocking Clavvy around with those 40DDs, mraven, in addition to out-debating him; whether he admits it or not...

You two might want to get a room... I mean REMF and Clavos, of course. What is it between you two?

From my viewpoint, I can't handle his hypocritical Republican "holier than thou, sanctimonious" ambiance, typical of most conservative rightists...

Typical of rednecks, in general.

Another stereotype from Moon.

No. You guys are the rednecks.

No need to stereotype.

"You two might want to get a room... I mean REMF and Clavos, of course. What is it between you two?"

Plus I just don't like short people...

I don't either.

Maybe because I was born on Randy Newman's birthday (he's a year older than the beautiful bird)?

Come to think of it, he's kinda...short.

Every bigot thinks he's a wry student of human nature.

"They got little cars
That go beep, beep, beep
They got little voices
Goin' peep, peep, peep
They got grubby little fingers
And dirty little minds
They're gonna get you every time"

"They got little hands
And little eyes
And they walk around
Tellin' great big lies
They got little noses
And tiny little teeth
They wear platform shoes
On their nasty little feet"

"They got little baby legs
And they stand so low
You got to pick 'em up
Just to say hello..."

That's it, all right. Big hit in 1977.

Well, I don't want no Short People
Don't want no Short People
Don't want no Short People
Round here

Short People are just the same
As you and I
(A Fool Such As I)
All men are brothers
Until the day they die
(It's A Wonderful World)

Short People got nobody
Short People got nobody
Short People got nobody
To love