I think I liked it better when you included links. I actually wanted to read up on a couple of the points you raised, but I don't have time to research them for myself right now.

And then there's this huge bit of illogic:

In the context of the dollar being devalued you comment "American goods are losing their markets." Which makes no sense, because if the dollar is weaker then US goods should be less expensive and therfore more widely available in other countries.

A low dollar SHOULD mean that American products are more competitive overseas. And in fact, the statistics seem to bear this out, as the major positive impact of Bush's weak dollar is that US exports are up substantially.

So where are all those additional billions of dollars of US products going if they're disappearing off the shelves in Japan as your anecdote suggests?

Dave

For me it wasn't so much the links themselves, it was the sheer number of them.

Can't please everyone, I guess.

unRealist...

This is pretty funny..how come you didnt label this post under satire...

"the media outlets are slipping out of the neocon grasp"

This must be some sort of Haloween spoof!

JOM

So where are all those additional billions of dollars of US products going if they're disappearing off the shelves in Japan as your anecdote suggests?

Oh well, realist.

Rome didn't last forever, either.


It was fun while it lasted, though.

Do you have a line on which will be the next great nation? I'd like to move there, now that life in the US has become so lacking.

Time to move on.

sorry guys...that aint me...

I am blaming boneheads like the rednecks on this site for the fact that the dollar is 1.46 to the euro at this moment.

I cannot even think about going to Paris!

Yesterday in the General Assembly 194 countries voted against the US continuing its economic blockade of Cuba.

Yep, they all LOVE and SUPPORT US policies.

Can't wait to flush you fuckers.

Clavos, start learning Chinese before it's too late.

[Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

Just noticed the typo: 184 countries voted to end the blockade.

Four voted aginst: US, Israel (same country, different name) plus those two movers and shakers of heavy duty influence: the Marshall Islands and Palau. Palau???????????????

Didn't Palau also support Japan's bid to resume commercial whaling, along with such landlocked whaling-dependent nations as Laos and Mongolia.

Nothing like doing ongoing scientic study that involves killing whales and then eating them in order to study them. The chopstick study method. Bribery works wonders. And it's first come, first served, down here in the lovely South Pacific.

In 2005, Palau Vice-Speaker Okada Techitong said (and probably regretted it later): "We definitely have to support Japan. The Japanese government is helping us with millions of grants and aid."

Ooops.

Er, Realist. The Australian dollar has been floating relative to the Greenback for some time.

This week, it's hovering around 93 cents, but at one stage was up to 97 I believe. Contrary to popular belief though, that is not a bad thing for the US. It's about time we had a correction on an artificially inflated greenback driven too high through the machinations of the spivs on Wall Street.

That figure is just about identical to the first time I travelled to the US in the late 1970s - when I got 1 for 1, and because my wages were higher than most Americans' in comparable employment thanks to our generous workplace laws, lived like a bloody king :)

So things aren't that different almost 30 years on.

Cracks me up that the same people that are mad about the economy are the same people that caused the economic failures of so many corporations. Our government is very unfriendly to business. Micron, the last US manufacturer of DRAM chips, is on its heels. We simply cannot afford to manufacture in the US. Especially when countries like Korea offer to build a facility and provide free electicity and water for 10 years if we will employ their people.

Unions and tax laws have killed the US corporations.

If you hate corporations you are part of the problem of the devalued dollar.

They all fail to see it though, Maurice.

Just as they fail to see why we're the wealthiest nation in history with the highest standard of living for the greatest percentage of its population.

Not perfect, but better than any other system that's been tried, by a mile.

BTW planes and bombs have DRAM chips in them. What will we do when we want to bomb a country that supplies our chips?

Maurice: "If you hate corporations you are part of the problem of the devalued dollar."

Maurice, the devalued dollar isn't a problem unless you're going on vacation to Europe or Australia. In the US, at the supermarket and elsewhere, if you are buying locally grown or produced goods, you are not going to notice a difference. If you are buying luxury goods imported from overseas, perhaps. But then if you can afford such things as a Rolls-Royce or a Luis Vuitton, is an extra $100 here, $1000 there going to make any diiference?

The US needs to have a lowered dollar if its economy is to have any hope of surviving. The US needs to resume large-scale exports (export sale of manufactured goods is one of the best ways to
boost industry), and lose or lower the costly government subsidies that enabled it previously to compete on these markets.

The devalued dollar is good for that, and a whole lot more besides (and it's probably now about the level it should be, which still makes it one of the world's strongest currencies). Look at today's decision to drop interest rates as one benefit for you, while ours are tipped to go up next month another .25 per cent on the strength of the rising Aussie dollar.

For the first time in 40 years, US-made cars are now competing with the Australian car industry, and we are now seeing American-made cars on our roads in numbers for the first time since the 1960s. You could import cars from China here and sell 'em for half the price, but quality is the issue. Like the Levi's ad says, quality never goes out of style.

My wife always buys US-grown nuts and fruit, which we now get to replace out of season home-grown produce at the supermarket - because they are of comparable quality to the home-grown stuff. If the greenback goes up again, those exports will be lost or put at risk, and the old circular problem of having to introduce prop-up subsidies for farmers and manufacturers in America once more applies.

While it might seem like an impost (and a blow to the collective American ego) to see the greenback fall, it's actually a bonus for America and its trading partners.

Don't panic yet. The US has been in far worse situations.

Clavos - well said. Not a popular view but accurate.

STM - the devalued dollar is a problem if you are an international corporation trying to buy products and services overseas. I appreciate what you are saying (at a consumer level) but I still think it bodes ill for US based corporations.

At some point, there has to be a levelling out. It's all very well sourcing many of these products and services offshore and selling them at the same rate in the US and elsewhere, thus boosting profits enormously.

However, that's an artificial bubble that's absolutely guaranteed to burst, and what the devaluing of the dollar does is simply bring these things back to the level they should be.

It is NOT a huge issue for the US economy. The falling dollar is a boost for the US, not the least reason being that such inequality in terms of wages/prices paid overseas and in the US in the race for higher and higher profits could not be sustained.

In truth, it's lasted about a decade before the correction kicked in. It still delivers huge profits to US corporatuions however, just not as huge.

For American workers, the whole thing's a godsend. Expect to see more manufacturing jobs served up by US corporations and actually based in the US, rather than in places like China and Korea.

Much of your raw material comes from this country, which will suffer far more than the US in terms of its export markets under a falling US dollar.

I know the government here is always unhappy about the $A dollar getting stronger against the US currency, and the managers of our economy are good enough to have it considered one of the world's strongest.

You've got it all wrong Maurice. I understand your sentiment, but the correction on the currency markets could herald a new era for the US economy, and for American workers, not the end of it.

It all depends on what you do with what you've got. Who was it who said: "If life gives you lemons, make lemonade."

That's a pretty American way of looking at things, and good advice for anyone.

Maurice and Clavos [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor] have joined in a chorus of deception to shift the blame to their traditional enemies: The Liberals and the Unions.

Better that than facing the shame they must feel for backing the most disastrous president in US history, merely in order to not admit they were wrong and will have to shift their rigid dogma.

No doubt to alleviate the sting of dismay for consistently backing this most careless and lazy president in US history, who has presided over a dreadful US economic decline as well as the brazen invasion of our largest city by a band of outlaws which was the DIRECT RESULT of their negligence.

Let's look at their foolish assertions:

"#13 -- October 31, 2007 @ 23:22PM -- Maurice

Cracks me up that the same people that are mad about the economy are the same people that caused the economic failures of so many corporations."

Our corporations are NOT failing! Have you no eyes to see, or is this just a routine lie to cover failure? Profits are at record levels, the stock market is soaring (as corps sellout the US heritage).

What IS failing is the situation of our workers and citizens!

The success of our corps is being paid for out of the forfeited pensions and medical plans of good USA employees, homeowners and small businesses.

" Our government is very unfriendly to business. Micron, the last US manufacturer of DRAM chips, is on its heels. We simply cannot afford to manufacture in the US."

Because your corp-friendly government is promoting the growth of monopolistic corps that report to no one through their market domination. And they are subsidized through corp-friendly tax laws and now, of all disgraces, "no-bid" contracts.

" Especially when countries like Korea offer to build a facility and provide free electicity and water for 10 years if we will employ their people."

So you're saying that our privatized company cannot compete with a Socialist economy that will tax it's citizens to steal a US business. Does this not demolish the notion of higher efficiency thru privatization? And who is it that is selling us out? None other than GW Bush, to enrich a few executives through bonuses paid to sellout the USA.

"Unions and tax laws have killed the US corporations."

What BULLSHIT! Corp Taxes have been steadily going down, as well as laws allowing beneficial mergers which eliminate taxes. Union membership has never been smaller and unions are almost totally powerless.

If you hate corporations you are part of the problem of the devalued dollar.

"#14 -- October 31, 2007 @ 23:28PM -- Clavos

They all fail to see it though, Maurice.

Just as they fail to see why we're the wealthiest nation in history with the highest standard of living for the greatest percentage of its population.

Not perfect, but better than any other system that's been tried, by a mile."

More bullshit! The quality of life has been steadily declining in the US for several years while foreign countries have been steadily improving. The poorest people in Western Europe now have a better life than here. For example, they have medical care that is cheaper, easier and even superior to the US. Only in IGNORANCE of life abroad can you maintain such foolishness.

"#15 -- October 31, 2007 @ 23:30PM -- Maurice

BTW planes and bombs have DRAM chips in them. What will we do when we want to bomb a country that supplies our chips?"

All you're saying is that OUR government and OUR corps have colluded to sellout our defense capability for the sake of A Few Dollars More. All for a shortrun shortsighted policy of quick profits to enrich a few executives. Without regard for the future of the USA.

I'm disgusted.

Yesterday in the General Assembly 194 countries voted against the US continuing its economic blockade of Cuba.

I'm not familiar with this 'General Assembly' and the role it plays in setting US foreign policy? Last I checked the only constituent assemblies with authority in the US were the House of Representatives, Senate, and various state legislatures - some of which are called 'assemblies'.

Dave

What BULLSHIT! Corp Taxes have been steadily going down,

Sorry, Bliffle. This is at best oversimplified and at worst not true. Taken over the long term corporate tax rates have generally gone up. The top rate started at 1% and then rose steadily through the last century until it topped out at around 50% in the 1960s. It then fluctuated up and down between 45% and 50% until 1987 when it was dropped to 34%. Since then it has been increased to 36%.

So, in the long term it has increased from nothing to as high as 50%, and in the last 20 years it has increased from 34% to 36%. It's only gone down if you look at the change specifically when it went down in 1987. Over any other period the trend has been upwards.

More bullshit! The quality of life has been steadily declining in the US for several years while foreign countries have been steadily improving.

Bliffle, this is just not true. I just did an extensive perusal of the UN Human Development Index, and the US is not declining, nor are European nations advancing at a faster rate or passing the US. The US is ranked 8th this year and was ranked 10th last year. In raw numbers the US is up about the same as most European nations since the index started in 1975. Here are some examples of the amount HDI rating has increased for various nations since 1975:

United States +.80
France +.89
Sweden +.83
Germany +.71
Netherlands +.76
Norway +.97
Ireland +1.43
Finland +1.04
Italy +.96
Portugal +1.13

So the US is in the middle. Of course, the amount HDI can increase is heavily influenced by where it stands to start with, so the poorer, less developed nations had more room to imrpove. And, of course, the countries with the most improvement like Ireland and Finland are the ones which instituted massive free market reforms and tax cuts during the last three decades.

Dave

Is Australia still at number three Dave?? :)

Oh, and bliffle.

Show me one word I've written in defense of Bush.

I was writing about the health of the US economy, in which I've actively worked at above average jobs for the past forty years; and what I've seen during that time is overall steady improvement, with some hiccups along the way.

And I didn't see Maurice defending Bush either.

You're a very emotional, but very irrational commenter, bliffle. Your anger, evident in your scribbling, overrides whatever common sense you may have had at one time.

But if I were defending Bush, bliffle, I would have to ask, as does Lawrence Kudlow:

"If things are so bad, why are they so good?"

I tend to agree with King-dollar Kudlow, although Reaganomics leaves me cold. The doomsters want us all to fall, but we aren't, and the US economy won't. All it is a correction that had to happen; the sub-prime crisis was nothing more than a catalyst, and it will benefit the US in the long term as the US boosts export markets, whilst marginally afflicting the economies of some developing countries (China and India in particular).

bliffle - thanks for the kind words. Just a few things to think about. I didn't vote for Bush and an not a fan. Not sure how you arrived at that conclusion. You also drew some bizzare conclusions about corporations. US based corporations are heavily taxed and regulated. Federal and State taxes are crippling. Microns property tax alone is $120m per year.

It is interesting that you make the bold claim that workers and citizens are paying the price. That is not true. The unions have killed many corporations. Remember the people crying at the gate of the Zenith plant when they closed it down? Those same people were striking 9 months before they closed that gate. High taxation and inflated union wages have caused manufacturing to disappear in this country.

Not sure why you called the Republic of South Korea a Socialist economy. They patterned their government after ours with the 3 branches. The big difference is South Korea subsidizes their corporations while the US takes money from ours.

"Show me one word I've written in defense of Bush."
- Clavos

Umm, OK:
"Bush has never been formally charged with desertion. Besides, even if he had, it's still non sequitur."
- Clavos

ummm...a large part of why Corps move overseas revolves around healthcare and it's spiraling costs...a good reason for a single payer system that doesn't involve the employer , perhaps?

it is this exact thing that keeps many of our competitor nations a bit ahead of U.S.

just a Thought....


oh yeah..and for JoM

definition of a neocon - a Republican who believes the Matrix is real!

Excelsior?

[Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

Although UN General Assembly votes of this kind are non-binding, the motive for my post was to underline the TOPIC OF THIS THREAD--which is that the US had no supporters on the planet.

[Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

Maurice,


Common brother. Unions did not cause the crisis that we are facing. It is pure greed, predatory lending and I want it now.

Surely you will agree with me?

Clavos

Got any more questions or requests???


he hehe he hehe heee.

"Show me one word I've written in defense of Bush."
- Clavos

Umm, OK:
"Bush has never been formally charged with desertion. Besides, even if he had, it's still non sequitur."
- Clavos


Well I guess it wasn't really ONE word. Sorry Clav. You are right.


he he he heeeee! oh my goodness! oooooh aaahhhh he he he heeeeeeee....

Not to quash your glee, but defending the truth and defending Bush aren't necessarily the same thing. Clavos in these instances appears to just be setting the record straight, but for the Bush deranged any statement that isn't an attack on Bush is seen as a defense.

Dave

Paraphrasing Mr. Twain's famous witty remark:

"The reports of our economy's death are an exaggeration."

Zedd #29 The current devaluation of the dollar is as you said "greed and predatory lending".

I still stand by my statement that unions have caused the death of manufacturing in this country. The example I provided was Zenith but there are current examples. The movie industry has been struggling for several years now. The writers guild has decided to go on strike. Will that help or hurt the industry? Chrysler laid off 13k in Feburary and now anounced layoffs of another 10k. If you were a member the UAW and they wanted to strike would you feel good about that?

I will concede that high taxes have also convinced manufacturing to go overseas. Not to mention healthcare costs (thanks gonzo!).

the problem isn't greed - rather it's the form of economic rationality that derives from the capitalist organizing principle: maximized profit

troll - LOL!

ever the correctionalist minimalist!

An understanding of ponerology is essential protection in understanding why these negative consequences have arrived. see Ponerology and the ponerology blog for more information

Forgive me for this long quote from a brilliant NY Times column earlier this week. It contains several bits of truth that the ideologues [on both sides] ought to consider. The title of this article, which everyone should read, is "Plain Truth About Taxes and Cuts" by David Leonhardt.

The taxes that the federal government took in last year equaled 18.4 percent of the gross domestic product, almost exactly the average since 1980.

...moderate shifts in taxes don't dictate economic growth. Mr. Bush's father and Bill Clinton raised taxes -- and the economy grew for almost the entire decade of the 1990s. The current administration has cut taxes -- and the economy has grown for almost all of this decade.

This country really does have a high corporate tax rate, but it also has so many loopholes that companies can often avoid paying the tax. A much smarter policy, economists say, would include a lower rate with fewer loopholes.

...A family in that top 1 percent of earners paid a total federal tax rate -- including everything from payroll taxes to income taxes to capital gains taxes -- of 30 percent in 2004. That was down from 41 percent a decade before. Since the 1950s, tax rates on high-income families have generally been falling.

The top earners pay a bigger share of the government tab than in the past because their incomes have risen so sharply -- even more sharply than their tax bills.

Mr. Bush has predicted that the deficit will disappear by 2012. But that prediction depends on the fiction that the alternative minimum tax will be allowed to grow ever larger in coming years. The Democratic presidential candidates, meanwhile, are promising to pay for their new programs in part by getting rid of some of Mr. Bush's tax cuts. But those tax cuts are already scheduled to expire under current law. The official budget numbers have already taken their demise into account.

White House officials are absolutely correct when they note that the current budget deficit isn't especially large. But it will soar in coming years, as baby boomers stop working (and stop paying very much in taxes) and instead move onto the Social Security and Medicare rolls If nothing changes over the next couple of decades, the United States will build up a debt burden to resemble Argentina's...

Maurice,

You are so easy. Your wife is a lucky lady!

Now will you lend me a dime?

Maurice,

If Corporations were to treat their workers like human beings rather than drones to be used and discarded, there would be no need for unions. But that is an impossibility for an entity who's sole raison d'etre is profit. Only a psychopath behaves 100% in a way that benefits only itself. The way the average corporation treats it's employees relative to the work received from them is criminal. Why should a CEO make 800 times more than a an entry-level employee?

BTW, Warren Buffet appears to disagree with your assertion that the corporate world is being strangled by high taxation. There certainly seems to be enough cash to pay those big bonuses. "Buffett blasts system that lets him pay less tax than secretary"

Warren Buffett, the third-richest man in the world, has criticised the US tax system for allowing him to pay a lower rate than his secretary and his cleaner.

Speaking at a $4,600-a-seat fundraiser in New York for Senator Hillary Clinton, Mr Buffett, who is worth an estimated $52 billion (£26 billion), said: "The 400 of us [here] pay a lower part of our income in taxes than our receptionists do, or our cleaning ladies, for that matter. If you're in the luckiest 1 per cent of humanity, you owe it to the rest of humanity to think about the other 99 per cent."

Mr Buffett said that he was taxed at 17.7 per cent on the $46 million he made last year, without trying to avoid paying higher taxes, while his secretary, who earned $60,000, was taxed at 30 per cent. Mr Buffett told his audience, which included John Mack, the chairman of Morgan Stanley, and Alan Patricof, the founder of the US branch of Apax Partners, that US government policy had accentuated a disparity of wealth that hurt the economy by stifling opportunity and motivation.

Haven't we already been over the fallacy in the Buffet taxation example?

Dave

Maurice, Gonzo, et al, demonstrate their naivete WRT business by regarding 'profit' as a corporate desiderata. Nothing could be farther from the truth. No entrepeneur believes such a self-destructive fallacy. Mere profit signals the impending collapse of the company and the severing of the Executive lifeline, which is revenue, not profit. All the forms of executive compensation scale to revenue, not profit. Whether bonuses, stock options, even the size of the office and the length of the company car, they all scale to revenue. My friend G said to me "I haven't met an executive in 10 years who considers profit anything but a nuisance. The real objective is to break even at ever higher levels". He told me that 20 years ago and it is more in evidence every day.

The astute executive doesn't look to company profits for his reward (tho he always demands such a perk in his compensation package) because it's a small reward because, as must be, profits are a smaller number than revenues. And it's easier to justify taking 10% of revenue than 100% of profits when they are the same bottom line number to him. A board of directors that would scream bloody murder at forking over 100% of the company profits but willingly give 10% of revenues.

The entrepeneur is gravely endangered by profits because those retained earnings are a noose around his neck. It makes him expendable, and since his cost is high to the BOD and the shareholders he WILL be expended. He has served his purpose and can be replaced by a drone, and there are plenty of drones around at a fraction of his cost.

On the other hand, if he maintains the company PL in a precarious (seeming) condition they will always need him to save the day by increasing sales (or decreasing costs) thus holding out, once again, the hope of profit to the BOD. He employs the carrot to manipulate the Founders and Shareholders, who are often superannuated and suckered by dreams of security. But the entrepeneur will not let them be secure, for then he is expendable. His reward for making his BOD secure is that his own head becomes insecure on his shoulders as he is marched to the Guillotine.

No, the goal of the businessman is power, not profit. The only use he has for profit is to increase his power. He needs a machine behind which he can hide ("the corporate veil") while operating the levers. "It's the machines fault. I built it to spec and look what it did" he says. Maybe we should change the plans for future machines, but we can't hold the current operator responsible.

And that is why the modern corporation has become a frankensteins monster. A conscienceless hulk lurching thru the village killing children , demolishing property and eventually bringing the terrorized and angry villagers bearing torches.

That's called Revolution. Get out the Guillotine, again. Heads will roll.

Jesus, you've obviously gotten into the hallucinogens again, bliffle.

What a steaming pile of crap that "analysis" of corporations and their executives was!

You have a vivid (but truly bizarre) imagination...

I spent thirty years as an executive in a large corporation and never saw anything even remotely resembling what you describe.

Is there a full moon tonight??

ummm, bliffle...check my Comment again...i merely mentioned a single Variable of Cost

nothing even remotely connected to yer little screed here...

just correcting for the Record

Excelsior?

Zedd #38 Baby, my wife loves me! She is in Mexico for the week and I am at home. She left the cat in charge.

handyguy #37 groovy link! It is great to get a solid no nonsense answer like that.

bliffle# 41 all of the world is crazy except for you, man. Hope my post #25 helped.

gonzo #43 ever the cool cat. Preach it, brother.

bliffle - interesting analysis...but imo your attempt to bring the argument down to the level of individual real accountable people falls short

'profit' 'revenue' 'return on investment' are all terms denoting quantifiable aspects of the same underlying growth phenomenon...all useful for economic analysis and attempts to explain the behavior of corporate officers and investors

'power' as you use it is a socio/psychological notion lacking the formalization necessary to make it similarly useful...demystify it and then let's talk again

Nalle:

Any statement that is not an attack on Bush is HIGH TREASON and should be punished according to the law regarding same.

Starting with professional rednecks in Texas.