Sound like a classic case of paranoia...

So whats the point and whats the solution?

JOM

We slumber on in our untroubled sleep.

Don't we JOM?

Great piece of writing. Very powerful.

I feel liberated now. Benjamin's photo is so disturbing that I no longer feel at all concerned about any of the somewhat creepy ones I've used in the past.

Dave

"The media deciding what we see, the corporations deciding what medications make the market, big oil writing energy policy and on and on and on."

Gee - I guess some people dont understand the concept of Free Will. The CubScout Leader who wrote this sounds worse than all of the victims he is calling out!

Cindy...go back to bed!

JOM

Disturbing? I thought was either his cub scout photo or an advertisment for Hee Haw!

JOM

JOM,

Going after my hat? That's the bet you got? Nice. As to free will, of course I get it. I'm more along the lines of not sure why so many willing sacrifice it. Paranoid? Perhaps. Solutions? None yet, working on it.

....solutions - ?

here's one: avoid going for that 'bullet'

time to make a stand

Benjamin,

You really have to forgive JOM his comments. People with just one brain cell often have trouble discerning reality. It's the Christian thing to do, Ben.

By the way, nice hat.

Just what we needed: another Chicken Little...

"The media deciding what we see..." Umm, what about the internet? Who controls it?

"the corporations deciding what medications make the market" Did you forget about the FDA?

"big oil writing energy policy" Riiight. Like drilling wherever they want to. How many wells are there in ANWR? Offshore of Florida?

Sure, the Internet is wide open in most places. But also so amazingly vast that unless you're really dedicated finding the information is like looking for the needle in the proverbial haystack. The FDA can only approve what comes before them and while we may not be drilling in ANWR but at the same token there's been absolutely no substansive changes to the MPG rating for new vehicles or improvement on the combustable engine in how many years?

Right or left, liberal or conservative, the folks on BC or who contribute to the political forums around the Internet are not those in which my angst is leveled. Its to the people who watch Ahmadinejad deliver his speech and ask "Whose that guy?" or those whose primary concern is what happened last night on "American Idol" or "Dancing Stars."

So, say what you will. I spent much time traversing this country of ours from west to east and everything in between and it's not pretty.

"So, say what you will. I spent much time traversing this country of ours from west to east and everything in between and it's not pretty."

I agree with you, Ben.

I just don't think you can lay all the country's woes at the feet of industry.

Though "Big" industry is the popular boogeyman these days, I lay much more blame on the apathy and ignorance you mention, but mostly on Congress, the administration, and the overwhelming ineptitude and corruption of Big Government and the people who work for it.

About the headgear: To me it looks more like an old Cavalry hat than a Cub Scout leader's (observe what appear to be crossed swords on it... not really what you'd want a bunch of eight-year-old boys to be running around with). Clav, you're into military titfers - what d'you think?

About Dave: Creepy photos you've used in the past?!? Your current one isn't exactly conducive to sound sleep... ;-)

About the article: Chicken Little indeed. No matter what point in history you pick, there's always going to be someone who thinks the world is going down the tubes. By all means be vigilant, but if you're going to convince us that we do indeed live in interesting times, you have to provide us with a bit more than an assemblage of revolutionary catchphrases.

Benjamin,

You really have to ignore Ruvy's comments. His yamkule is too tight on that little peanut of a head. People who live in the desert waiting for the end of the world often have trouble discerning reality (as examplifed in his ramblings).

JOM

Question for the group...

Do people who deliver the morning paper now qualify to call themselves "freelance journalist"?

JoM

Wait a minute..this post smells like pure plagarism!!!

I could have sworn I heard ___________ (insert your choice - Hillary, Biden, Edwards, Owhama and the chubby white guy claiming to be mexican) use these exact words in their last stump speach!!

JOM

Doc,

Yup. Sure looks like an old Cav hat to me...

JOM,

I actually do agree with you about the article (careful, don't fall out of your tree), but not about your spelling of yarmulke.

While we're on the subject of headwear (cavalry hats and the like) I do actually own a yarmulke, although I'm not Jewish. A friend of mine went to Israel and brought one back for me. It's rather nice. It's black and has grapes embroidered on it.

And, seeing as how your yarmulke simply sits on the back of your skull rather than pulled down on your head like a hat, it's kind of impossible to have one that's too tight.

Dread..have you ever seen Ruvys head??? Its smaller than a walnut!

JOM

The article could use a few specific, forceful examples. It's just nebulous paranoia as it stands.

But I differ with Clavos - certainly corporations, through mass advertising and through huge lobbying and political contributions, do more than their share of encouraging people to think in certain ways. But they're not a monolithic force pushing all in one direction. And there are lots of other forces putting out their own propaganda as well.

It is disturbing how many Americans are uninformed and apathetic about politics, world affairs, history. And that's how 'elites' get a chance to dominate the discussion. Conservatives point to elites as a bad thing. I'm not so sure.

I didn't absolve corporations of responsibility, Handy, though I may not have made that clear.

I did give heavier weight to public ignorance and apathy and to the various branches of government and their deadly mix of ignorance and corruption.

Handy,

Elite (also spelled Élite) is taken from the Latin, eligere, "to elect". In sociology as in general usage, the élite is a relatively small dominant group within a larger society, which enjoys a privileged status which is upheld by individuals of lower social status within the structure of a group.

Just because they are "elites" does not mean they are well read on worldy matters. For example how many people really take George Cooney, Brangelina, John Kerry and Al G(w)hore seriously!

They are elites because People, US magazine, CNN The NY Times and the Daily KOs..tell us they are!

JOM

JOM, unfortunately I have never had the pleasure of viewing Reuven's cranial appendage. There's been an alarming red X on his blog where his photo should be for quite some time.

In contrast, you, I am sure, have a vast head, packed all the way through with solid bone except for a microscopic space in the middle to accommodate the brain cell.

Dread you almost right...but your description

"a vast head, packed all the way through with solid bone"

more closely describes whats between my legs!!!

JOM

JOM, so you really are a dick head?

Had to be said! ;-)

Now Chris...you should ask your mom about that! She knows what Im packin in my pants!

JOM

"About Dave: Creepy photos you've used in the past?!? Your current one isn't exactly conducive to sound sleep... ;-)"

Well, yeah, true Doc; but still, you shoulda seen the one in which he was dressed up in his phony gun-fighter's costume wearing the goofy little cowboy hat...
(MCH)

Sadly, that photo was already a thing of the past by the time I came across BC. Maybe we should start a petition to have him put it back up...

I think I remember that picture...Dave looked like Woody from Toy Story..only he wasnt small and skinny..he was sort of big and bloated looking..

JOM

^ He was pretty proud of it at the time, actually. I'd probably be surprised by his "creepy" reference if not for his consistent history of flip-flopping....

It is a Cav stetson, I was assigned to such while overseas.

More specific examples? Absolutely. Paranoia? Naw, people really are ignorant and those who can are taking advantage of that no matter where they come from, enough of you have said as much in the comments. But I would agree that more pointed examples would strenghten the piece.

Oh and just for the record, I wanted to give a personal shout out to JoM, you're fucking hilarious dude.

"It is a Cav stetson, I was assigned to such while overseas."

Now Ben...you're intimating here that you've served in the military; and I happen to recall from previous converstions that you have not.

Just to be accurate.
(MCH)

When have I ever intimated that? Not only did I, but I currently do.

You know, you say that, and just by saying/writing something doesn't make it true.

I guess I just don't believe you, considering how you misspelled Cavalry (ie, "Calvary") several months ago....

So I miss-spelled Calvary, talk about latchning on to the dumbest of shit....believe what you want, can't say I give a fuck

Ignore Shuffleboard Boy, Ben.

The heat in Hawaii during his arduous tour in the military fried the sausage in his brain pan.

I have to say that Ben looks way too much like an Aggie not to be in the military.

Dave

I couldn't hide the fact that I'm in the Military if I wanted to, holy crap Google is a bitch.

I think your piece as is Ben. It's not standard, a bit more poetic. That's why I think it is powerful. To add more examples would be like explaining a poem while writing it. Just how it struck me.

oops...make that..."I think your piece is good as is."

"Ignore Shuffleboard Boy, Ben. The heat in Hawaii during his arduous tour in the military fried the sausage in his brain pan."

Actually I was stationed next to a rain forest, Clavvy, don't think the temp got above 85. And at least my brain pan still functions well enough to know that Bill Calley (one of your idols) was a scumbag.
(MCH)

"Bill Calley (one of your idols) was a scumbag."

IS a scumbag, emmy, not was; he ain't dead yet.

I wouldn't agree that Calley's one of my idols, emmy, but he does rank higher with me than Kerry.

"I wouldn't agree that Calley's one of my idols, emmy, but he does rank higher with me than Kerry."

A revealing admission.

It was intended to be, bliffle.

Calley fucked over Vietnamese. Kerry fucked over Americans.

One other thing, bliffle.

Unless you've crawled, under fire, through a Vietnamese rice paddy, you have no fucking clue what you're talking about.

"Calley fucked over Vietnamese. Kerry fucked over Americans."

umm...Clavos..please tell me you are just fucking around here

how in the Name of whatever you hold dear can you possibly equate a man who was found guilty in the murders of at least 109 people with whatever Kerry did to justify your statement that he "fucked over Americans"?

is it because of his protest against the Vietnam conflict after he got home?

if so, how can a peaceful protest, stating his Opinion as part of his Right to political Free Speech even remotely be compared to a mass murderer?

i'm genuinely interested in your reasoning here, because the statement itself appears to be completely unReasonable from someone i may not agree with in many cases, but whom i had thought of as a Reasonable person

Excelsior?

No, gonzo it wasn't my intent to equate what each did as being on the same level of importance.

Rather, it was my (admittedly clumsy)attempt to draw attention beyond the acts themselves and to the intangible aspects of their respective actions in terms of motivation, circumstance, and intent.

While Nuremberg established forever and beyond doubt that "following orders" is not a valid legal defense for wartime atrocities, it nevertheless, in fairness, must be considered when contemplating the enormity, gravity and especially, the morality of a specific act.

In the Calley case, court records indicate that he testified that Captain Medina ordered him to direct his men to "waste" the My Lai villagers, while Medina denied (under oath) that he ordered Calley to do so. We'll never really know the truth, it's a 'he said/he said" kind of situation.

It's also worth noting that, much later and upon Calley's petition for habeas corpus, federal judge Robert Elliott overturned the verdict of the court martial, saying that the proceedings were seriously flawed and biased against Calley on a number of levels. As you know, the Army later appealed and Elliott's decision was overturned, but with five justices dissenting.

Sorry for the long-windedness. My point is that the whole process reeked too much of scapegoating and hanging Calley (the junior officer involved) to save the Army's face and the senior officers' skins. To this day, there remain too many unanswered questions.

As a combat vet (of the same war) myself, I have to give Calley a lot more leeway than others might to be inclined to, though there's no denying that a lot of people died that day. I believe Calley's testimony over Medina's. I also believe that Calley, with an OCS commission (as opposed to an ROTC or West Point one) was not as confident nor as well trained as another Lieutenant might have been, and consequently was pushed too far by circumstances AND (and this is important) by Medina. To this day, I think it's a disgrace that Medina was acquitted.

That the Army also ultimately had lots of doubt is revealed, I think, in the fact that, despite a life sentence from the court martial, Calley was only required to serve 3 1/2 years of house arrest at Ft. Benning.

There is some doubt too, in my mind (based on my own experiences) as to the "innocence" of a number of those civilians.

Taken as a whole, I find the circumstances surrounding the entire mess sufficient to provide significant doubt. If there had been a jury and I had been one of the jurors, I might well have opted for acquittal. Of course, I don't know for sure, without having seen all the evidence and testimony.

But, as a man who, under similar circumstances gained some insight into the events of that awful day in My Lai, I have never found it possible to unequivocally condemn William Calley in my own mind.

In the final analysis, it seems to me that Calley did whatever he actually did while in service to his country and while under an enormous amount of pressure for which his country did not properly prepare him. Then, when events went horribly bad, his country hung him out to dry.

Kerry, on the other hand (and in my opinion) has calculatedly built an entire political career on the backs of his fellow troops, spreading calumny and lies left and right solely for the purpose (again, IMO) of advancing his own career.

In short, I see Kerry as a Machiavellian, calculating (and very intelligent) manipulator with few, if any scruples; while Calley comes across as a confused (and not too bright) kid who was in the wrong place and the wrong job (for him) at the wrong time.

So no, gonzo, I don't equate the tangible results of their respective actions, but I do see more evil in Kerry than Calley, and the difference is in their relative awareness and calculation.

"Unless you've crawled, under fire, through a Vietnamese rice paddy, you have no fucking clue what you're talking about."
- Clavos

"During the Vietnam War, the failure to hold Lieutenant William Calley accountable for the My Lai massacre seriously injured the reputation of the Army. As I stated in About Face, 'The kid was guilty as hell.'"
- Col. David Hackworth, 1998

So Clavvy, do Hack's...

** Distinguished Service Cross (with Oak Leaf Cluster)
** 10 Silver Stars
** 3 Legion of Merit awards
** Distinguished Flying Cross
** 7 Bronze Stars with "V" Devices for valor
** 7 Purple Hearts
** Army Air Medal, with "V" Device & Numeral 34 (1 for heroism & 33 for aerial achievement)
** 3 Army Commendation Medals with "V" Devices
** World War II Victory Medal
** National Defense Service Medal (with 1 Bronze Service star)
** Korean Service Medal (with Service Stars for 8 campaigns)
** Vietnam Service Medal (2 Silver Service stars)
** and 25 years active in the U.S. military, including 5 tours in-country in Vietnam (compared to your one)

...qualify him to know what he's talking about?

Yep, they sure do.

But, I don't have to agree with him, and I don't, obviously.

For one thing, having read much of his writings, I find that I disagree with most of what he stands for, and that he and I are at opposite ends of the political spectrum. There's very little of the good colonel's ideas I agree with.

But then, that;'s what makes America great, isn't it?

Clavos, the theme that emerges from all the words and vehemence is that in war it is OK to kill foreigners as necessary, per Calley, and it is dishonorable to report it or complain about it, per Kerry. Is that about right?

Like to play with language, do you, bliff?

You're not even close.

Want me to say it in español?

#47 sez - "While Nuremberg established forever and beyond doubt that "following orders" is not a valid legal defense for wartime atrocities, it nevertheless, in fairness, must be considered when contemplating the enormity, gravity and especially, the morality of a specific act. "

well now, everyone in the US military knows that they do NOT obey an unlawful order...and at best, that is what Calley did, to the tune of over 100 dead helpless people...even if some were guilty of being VC..they were still captured and helpless

ALL involved should have been prosecuted, imo

that you even begin to equate that to a principled position taken up by another vet...even one whom you have serious political disagreements with...is beyond my comprehension....how many helpless people has Kerry killed?

"Kerry, on the other hand (and in my opinion) has calculatedly built an entire political career on the backs of his fellow troops, spreading calumny and lies left and right solely for the purpose (again, IMO) of advancing his own career.
"

show yer fucking Proof

it comes across to me as pure vindictiveness based on partisan prejudice...i could be mistaken, but it bothers me far more than pixels on a screen should that you genuinely think this way about it

even using this comparison is, to me, on par with the O'Reilly bit saying that the 11 year old boy who was captured, threatened with death and held as a sex slave for 4 years "must have liked some part of it"

ah well....

Excelsior?

Sorry it bothers you, gonzo, but:

1 You say Kerry's was "a principled position taken up by another vet" I don't agree. His testimony was neither principled (he had, even then, his eye on a career in politics and was grandstanding to that end in 1971), and it was hearsay, inasmuch as he was repeating what a bunch of other guys related to him at the so-called Winter Soldier conference

Partisanship has little to do with my stance on Kerry; he is disliked (and yes, even hated) by many if not most, VN vets.

2 "show yer fucking Proof" Notice I said, in that comment as well as this one, IMO.
I don't need proof for an opinion.

"it comes across to me as pure vindictiveness". Perhaps. As we Mexicans say, ni modo.

"ALL involved should have been prosecuted, imo"

Quoted for Truth, and I agree 100%; right up to and including LBJ and Nixon, congress, and the senate.

They thought so, too, which is why they went so easy on Calley in the end.

You bet I'm vindictive.

@ #54 - fair enough...

and my Appreciation for you taking the time to clarify

Excelsior?

"Kerry, on the other hand (and in my opinion) has calculatedly built an entire political career on the backs of his fellow troops, spreading calumny and lies left and right solely for the purpose (again, IMO) of advancing his own career."
- Clavos

But had he DESERTED, it'd be non sequitur...

"Partisanship has little to do with my stance on Kerry; he is disliked (and yes, even hated) by many if not most, VN vets."
- Clavos

Here are a few whom contradict the preceding statement:

"William B. Rood, an editor with the Chicago Tribune was a captain of a swift boat patrolling with Lt. J.F. Kerry on the Dong Cung river on Feb. 28, 1969, the day Kerry earned his Silver Star. He wrote a poignant personal account, for the first time publicly giving his account of that day, which was published by the Chicago Tribune on August 21, 2004;

"There were three swift boats on the river that day in Vietnam more than 35 years ago, three officers and 15 crew members. Only two of those officers remain to talk about what happened on February 28, 1969.

"One is John Kerry, the Democratic presidential candidate who won a Silver Star for what happened on that date. I am the other.

"Many of us wanted to put it all behind us-the rivers, the ambushes, the killing. Ever since that time, I have refused all requests for interviews about Kerry's service, even those from reporters at the Chicago Tribune, where I work.

But Kerry's critics, armed with stories I know to be untrue, have charged that the accounts of what happened were overblown. The critics have taken pains to say they're not trying to cast doubts on the merit of what others did, but their version of events has splashed doubt on all of us. It's gotten harder and harder for those of us who were there to listen to accounts we know to be untrue, especially when they come from people who were not there."

--------------------------------

"Mike Medeiros, of San Leandro, Ca., was serving under Kerry as a rear gunner for seven weeks, and was on patrol with him the day he earned the Silver Star. Medeiros is the sailor who followed Kerry off of the Swift Boat chasing after the Vietnamese carrying a grenade launcher. The newspaper, Tri Valley Herald, published his account of that day in an article on August 17, 2004. It corroborated the account of the action written by Mr. Rood.

At the time of the interview, Medeiros, serving in the National Guard, had been called up and called to active duty in the U.S. Army as a staff sergeant to train Guardsmen at Ft. Bliss before they headed for Iraq."

------------------------------

"Fred Short of North Little Rock, Ark., was also serving as a gunner on the boat commanded by Kerry the day he earned his Silver Star. The Toledo Blade published part of an interview with him about that day on July 28, 2004;

"'The senator chases the [Viet Cong] up the ridge, and sees him standing up, getting ready to let go his weapon,' he said. 'I'm 90 feet away now and I'm dead in the water. If he was a good pitcher, he could have taken me out with a baseball. ... Sen. Kerry takes him out and, in doing so, allows me to be here to speak to you this morning.'"

--------------------------------

"The Columbus Dispatch reported on August 12, 2004, that Jim Wasser of Illinois, who served with Kerry on a Swift Boat,

"...disputed charges that Kerry lied about his war record and said it's time to 'put a veteran's veteran in the White House... I am a swift boat sailor for the truth. They are swift boat sailors for George Bush.'"

-------------------------------

"Del Sandusky, who served in the United States Navy from 1961-76, in a news story that was published in the St. Peterburg Times August 8, 2004, was quoted saying;

"Mentally, some days we were a wreck...but John (Kerry) kept us together. He made sure al::l the guys knew where the hot zones and the safe zones were in the river, in case either he or I or both of us got hit. John made sure everyone knew the river and how to get out.

Not all the officers did that. If John had not done what he did, we'd be names on the wall right now."

--------------------------------

"Edward Elliott "Skip" Barker (Capt. US Navy, Ret.), an attorney from Selma, Alabama, first met Senator Kerry when they attended officers' school together in Coronado Ca. Barker and Kerry occasionally served on patrol together, each commanding their own boat. In an interview with the Montgomery Advertiser published August 10, 2004, Barker recounted one of those missions, when Kerry, armed with an M-16, charged a bunker on foot shouting in English and Vietnamese to surrender, only to find 42 civilians, malnourished and sickly emerge from it. Kerry saw to it that they were taken to a protected hamlet, where they received medical attention and food.

"John was very sensitive to the fact that we were fighting a war in the middle of an indigenous population."

About the SBFT members Barker said, "They're either intellectually dishonest or intellectually inept."

------------------------------

from the "Swift Boat Veterans For Kerry" web site

Dang, how did Kerry meet so many people and make such an impression and do so many heroic things in just 4 months.

Dave

Re 57;
Yeah, a pretty stark contrast to the 700 who DON'T remember seeing Gw Bush at Dannelly. And I'm sure you would've done more than Kerry, had you served.

And I'm sure you would've done more than Kerry, had you served."

Except trash his fellow combat vets.

What a contrast.
REMF posts quotes of at least 6 different eyewitnesses, who are alive today and on record about Kerry's actions and yet I can't find any number of eyewitnesses who remembered seeing George W. Bush at flight school.

Clavos,
I thought you were pissed that Calley F'd over the Viet Kong, yet it sounds like you are defending his actions.???

No, Martin, I'm not defending Calley's actions (except in emmy's eyes), but I am saying he was railroaded and scapegoated, because he's the only one who was tried and convicted on the incident, when it should have gone all the way up the Chain of Command, to include the C in C.

I'm also saying that despite Medina's denials, I don't doubt that he gave Calley the order to waste the villagers. I'm also saying that it's highly likely that many of them, contrary to popular myth, were probably not "innocent villagers," either. This point I make based on my own experiences.

"This point I make based on my own experiences."
- Clavos

And Col. David Hackworth, who served FIVE tours in-country in 'Nam, disagrees with you.

Your a good soldier Clavos.
Do what you're told, don't question authority and never, ever speak out against what's wrong.
Now I know why you and people like you, have such disdain for John Kerry.

Thanks for the insight.

"Your a good soldier Clavos."

I was a damn good soldier, martin. Where and when did you serve??

And I didn't say that authority shouldn't be questioned; on the contrary I question ALL authority, especially when it charges and punishes only the kids on the frontlines, letting those responsible for them off the hook, as it did not only at My Lai, but Abu Ghraib as well. And don't tell me about the Abu Ghraib prison commander; she was nailed only because she was a woman and thus not part of the Old boys military network. Had she been a man, nothing would have happened.

"Now I know why you and people like you, have such disdain for John Kerry."

No, you don't. I have disdain for him because he reported Hearsay he never personally saw as Truth. Most of it was Lies, but he spread them anyway. I have disdain for him because he did so knowingly, to start building his political career.

I have disdain for him because he's a weasel; he embodies all that's wrong with America today: he has no honor and no scruples.

Oops, I guess I spurred clavos into telling the truth, for once, about himself: he has no honor and no scruples.

Have a great day, swamprat.

I question ALL authority, especially when it charges and punishes only the kids on the frontlines, letting those responsible for them off the hook, as it did not only at My Lai, but Abu Ghraib as well.

Quoted for truth.

And yet another illustration of why history's most respected commanders were the ones who were willing to get their hands bloody in the line of battle - Cyrus, Thucydides, Alexander, Henry V, Nelson...

Clavos,

Sorry Clavos, I didn't serve, too young for Vietnam, too old for Iraq 1 or 2, plus generally have this problem with wars in general and kind of have the philosophy of avoiding them at all costs.

You don't know that Kerry was trying to further his career. He could have just as easily been doing what he thought was right, moral and decent. You assume he had an agenda, just as you assume that Calley should get a free pass for following orders.

Bottomline IMO is that it is extremely idiotic and insulting to be more pissed at a guy (Kerry) for testifying about the atrocities of an ill-conceived War than you are about a participant in some of those atrocities (Calley).

I presume you are correct in that he was ordered to do it and shouldn't have been the sole fall guy, but nonetheless, even you admit he was a participant. Not even you or your SwiftMouths for UnTruths accuse Kerry of burning down a village, yet you find him so much more reprehensible.

Sounds like a strictly partisan stance to me.

clavos takes no stances that are not strictly partisan.

That's what people who are not capable of THINKING do.

And the US educational system--of course now more than ever--promotes NON-THINKING as that way folks will never REALLY question anything the government does.

Here is Mexico they also believe in promoting pregnancy and going without (the money to buy) shoes for exactly the same motive.

The funny--and scary--thing is this: Works like a charm.

I heard that Clavos has a WIDE stance.....

"He could have just as easily been doing what he thought was right, moral and decent."

Then, on top of everything else, he's stupid. He knew he was repeating hearsay; he never saw any of the acts he claimed were being routinely practiced and he should have realized it was unethical to spread hearsay as truth; especially since they were lies that were never confirmed to be true.

So, he's not just a weasel, he's a stupid one.

"I heard that Clavos has a WIDE stance....."

I do, martin; when I'm hitting home runs against mental midgets like you and you and the birdbrain.

IMO the US education system teaches students that the answers are more important than the path to the answers. It's part of our goal-oriented philosophy, which ranks monetary achievement as primary.

Goal-orientation legitimizes cheating. Don't figure out the answer to the math problem, look for the answer in the back of the book, or get it from a frat brother, or hire a thesis on the internet at a thesis mill.

This is the big danger of teaching to the test.

So you end up with a lot of people who know the answers (or at least they knew the answers, once upon a time) to a small set of questions, but are ill-equipped to figure out the answers to new problems.

This leads to all kinds of problems, in addition to basically being unable to lead. Like denial, reactionism, bad decisions, violence, etc.

Lotta truth there, Bliff. As long ago as when I was in school, my parents, who had GOOD New York City public school educations plus degrees, were appalled at what they saw in the educations my siblings and I were receiving when we were in school.

And, from what I see, my nephew (all of whose classes are "advanced") being taught, I think it's even worse now.

Save you stance for the Airport restrooms Clavy.

As far as Kerry being stupid, that may well be the case, but at least 1 of his stories was true (My Lai) since you have credited it here.

Again, apparently you are just as blinded by your outright idolization of DAVE NALLE as maybe Calley was by his CO that you can't think for yourself either.

Pitiful....

"As far as Kerry being stupid, that may well be the case, but at least 1 of his stories was true (My Lai) since you have credited it here."

Wrong again, Martin.

Kerry had nothing to do with exposing My Lai. In fact, Calley went to trial two years before Kerry spread his hearsay lies to congress

You said it before Clavos :

"I see Kerry as a Machiavellian, calculating (and very intelligent) manipulator"

I never said he EXPOSED My Lai just used the awful truth of it to try and save some of our boys lives fighting a senseless war.

You seem to be what you say about Calley:

"a confused (and not too bright) kid"


After all, you identify with him more than Kerry and in spite of all your bravado about supporting the troops yada yada yada....you have more respect for the dummy shooting at civilians than you do with the elitist that you think is manipulating events to suit his own ends.

A little paranoid my friend?
Or is it that a simple boy from the banana farm just thinks that Northerners are trying to take advantage of you and you distrust anyone who knows how to exercise free will?

Or is it that a simple boy from the banana farm just thinks that Northerners are trying to take advantage of you and you distrust anyone who knows how to exercise free will?

Well Martin, that would directly contradict your prior assertion that Clavos took his marching orders from this northern-raised, elitist , free will advocate.

Dave

He'll be along now any minute.....

"REMF posts quotes of at least 6 different eyewitnesses, who are alive today and on record about Kerry's actions . . . . . "

Make that 7 -- and there are quite a few more.

Doug Reese

"I have disdain for him because he's a weasel; he embodies all that's wrong with America today: he has no honor and no scruples."
- Clavos

Yeah, that's gotta be frustrating for the "Party of National Security," that a liberal Democrat received three Purple Hearts, a Silver Star and a Bronze Star in combat; while their Deserter in Chief went AWOL from the Guards, and most of their sacred cow(ard)s were draft-dodging chickenhawks, ie, Dick Cheney, Newt Gingrich, John Ashcroft, Paul Wolfowitz, Dick Armey, Bill Bennett, Rush Limbaugh, et al...

Mr. Goodbar had no right to criticize Lt. Krackel on foreign policy, because Mr. Goodbar was himself a desserter.

OK guys, I give up, you all win,

kerry is a hero.

He's america's most heroic weasel.

I've never considered John Kerry to be a "hero." He served in combat, he was wounded in action and he performed duties while under fire to save American lives...which is more than most of the conservative blowhard chickenhawk self-proclaimed patriots.

To me, a hero is a guy like the late Col. David Hackworth (10 Silver Stars, 7 Bronze Stars, 7 Purple Hearts, etc). So when Hack says William Calley was "guilty as hell," I choose to believe him.

It doesn't matter if he was a hero. Benedict Arnold was a hero. That didn't excuse his later betrayal of his command to the enemy.

Dave

Too bad the ultimate betrayer of his command, our own commander in chief, could not only NOT be called a hero, but apparently no one even saw him serve.

Bliffle,

You have an entire article out of your comment #71. Of course, problem solving oriented education, the intelligent alternative to results oriented education, leads to another hazard, flying by the seat of one's pants.

I saw the hazards of that this evening; when in attempting to deal with the fact that there was not enough electricity connected to the trailer that serves as the school kitchen where I work part-time, a bunch of Israeli kids (they raise themselves here and don't really need me to cook) attempted to make shakshuka, a local specialty with eggs and tomatoes, and wound up burning a quarter of it on the bottom of the pan.

Because I've been a restaurant manager for a dozen years, I was able to figure out what had happened and why. Five onions would have saved it all.

But dinner, which was supposed to have been pizza, still was a disaster this evening. When you fly by the seat of your pants, you can crash....

The point to the previous comment was the we didn't have the five onions....

"It doesn't matter if he was a hero. Benedict Arnold was a hero. That didn't excuse his later betrayal of his command to the enemy."
- Dave Nalle

And I'll gladly take council regarding matters of the armed forces from Hack and his 25 years in the military, over anything a civilian who's never served has to offer, Nalle.

emmy conveniently neglects to mention that hackworth was a renegade officer who was passed over for promotion more than once, and who managed to piss off most of his superior officers as well as the Pentagon by the time he retired.

Also, he was not given the customary bump in rank (to improve retirement pay and benefits) that officers receive at retirement.

But, he was a hero.

HERO:

"A person noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose, especially one who has risked or sacrificed his or her life: soldiers and nurses who were heroes in an unpopular war."

Clavos -- I'd say John Kerry is a hero by this definition. I'd say your HERO'S couldn't be by this definition.

Retract your statements you scoundrel!

Hell, Martin, that definition's so broad, particularly here: "especially one who has risked or sacrificed his or her life..." that it defines ME as a hero, as I have risked my life in service to the USA (fool that I was), yet there's no way I consider myself one.

And nothing I've read in kerry's military history satisfies the part about "feats of courage or nobility of purpose," so sorry, but no cigar.

I do agree he's our most heroic weasel.

Well Clavvy maybe you are, but the key element may be this line "nobility of purpose".
Since Kerry basically risked everything to be speak out against an unjust war, I'd say that defines a nobility of purpose.
You, like Calley on the other hand, followed orders, did your duty and didn't follow any nobility of purpose.

You both epitomize your own heroic weasel moniker.

"Since Kerry basically risked everything to be speak out against an unjust war, I'd say that defines a nobility of purpose."

Au contraire, Martin. At the time he spoke out against the war he risked NOTHING! His only job at that time was president of Vietnam Veterans Against The War.

What he was doing, far from being noble, was trying to launch his political career, and he did it by repeating hearsay lies, for which he had no proof, to Congress, at the expense of the reputations of all of the rest of us who served in Vietnam.

Which is the major (but not the only) reason why I have such disdain for him.

And I'll gladly take council regarding matters of the armed forces from Hack and his 25 years in the military, over anything a civilian who's never served has to offer, Nalle.

Our founding fathers specifically believed that there should be a separation between the military and the civil administration. The military should fight the battles, but it is the civilian leadership which is responsible for determining where and when we fight.

This is a concept which you seem not to grasp. In your world the military should apparently be autonomous, which would put us in a war a week all over the world.

Dave

Kerry, was not "president" of VVAW. He was their spokesman for something like 3-4 months.

Doug Reese

@#94:

True. I stand corrected, though he was actually active with them (but not their spokesman) longer than 3-4 months.

"What he was doing, far from being noble, was trying to launch his political career..."
- Clavos

And that's worse than what Calley did at My Lai???
"The My Lai Massacre was the mass murder of 347 to 504 unarmed Vietnamese civilians, mostly women and children, conducted by U.S. Army forces on March 16, 1968, in the hamlet of My Lai, during the Vietnam War. Before being killed some of the victims were raped, gang-raped, sodomized, beaten, clubbed, tortured, maimed, or stabbed. Some of the dead bodies were also mutilated."
(from wikipedia dot org)

----------------------------

"...and he did it by repeating hearsay lies, for which he had no proof, to Congress, at the expense of the reputations of all of the rest of us who served in Vietnam."
- Clavos

You're not attempting to deny there were atrocities committed, are you?
(MCH)

That's the problem with our military. it's lost the knack for commiting a really good, large-scale atrocity. Even worse, our mercenaries don't even seem to be able to get it right. I mean, what is the world coming to when mercenaries can't even come up with some significant slaughter and mayhem?

Dave

Re #97;
But if you had served, you would've solved that problem, eh Nalle? Afterall, massacreing women, children and old men can't be too much different than killing stray dogs with a hunting rifle...

"the civilian leadership which is responsible for determining where and when we fight."

Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld. Nice job guys!


"In your world the military should apparently be autonomous, which would put us in a war a week all over the world."

Opposite obviously.
It would appear you would prefer a War lasting a decade, to a war a week, so you win.

Good one, Nalle.

"he risked NOTHING!"

Clavos,

He obviously risked the admiration and respect of people like you and people like you, vote and you didn't vote for him. So, unless he's a total idiot, he might just have done this because he believed it was right. Had he really been as manipulative and cunning as you want to believe, he would have kept his mouth shut and then the only reason you and your SBT's would have to disdain him would be because of his hair and chin.

Sorry pal, your argument makes no sense.

Pick another.

Not so fast there, Martin.

By making his speech when he did, he was pandering to and encouraging the already huge and rapidly growing anti-war population. He knew that, and deliberately played to them with his diatribe.

He actually gained an enormous amount of traction and recognition with that harangue; it catapulted him from nobody to a recognizable, marketable political name.

Just the way he planned it.

And, it worked.

Until he ran for president.

"...at the expense of the reputations of all of the rest of us who served in Vietnam."
- Clavos

No small arrogance there, portraying yourself as the spokesman for all Vietnam veterans. Especially considering there's another on this very thread (#78, 94). As an in-country vet himself, you won't be able to mock Doug Reese's service as you have mine.

Cunning bastard.......it would have worked too, but how was he supposed to know that a bunch of hawks would invade the White House and make up a bunch of shit in order to propel our country into War?
Dastardly!

How was he to know that the American citizenry would forget the lessons of the past and wrap themselves in the flag and scream for blood?

It's like eating shit with a rusted spoon.

"No small arrogance there, portraying yourself as the spokesman for all Vietnam veterans."

I call bullshit.

I have not "portrayed myself as the spokesman" of anybody but myself.

To say kerry smeared all our reputations is a description of the nature of his words, which implied that all of us who served there were committing atrocities; it does not purport to speak for anyone else.

You really need to go back to school and acquire some reading skills; get that GED!

Then your 1 vote must have been the decider Clavos.

Bullshit on your Bullshit.

You said: "already huge and rapidly growing anti-war population."
"nobody to a recognizable, marketable political name.

Just the way he planned it.

And, it worked.

Until he ran for president."

So one can conclude that you were speaking for thousands of vets since they apparently took your position as well.....

"So one can conclude that you were speaking for thousands of vets since they apparently took your position as well....."

Illogical conclusion, Martin.

The coincidence of thousands voting the same way (if that actually happened) in no way makes me their spokesman, nor did I at any time claim to be.

Still bullshit, Martin.

Yes, but they gave him the sole right to speak on behalf of Veterans and mind reading privileges for John Kerry.

""No small arrogance there, portraying yourself as the spokesman for all Vietnam veterans.""

Not true. Kerry only spoke for VVAW and read the testimonies of the Winter Soldiers' Investigation into the Congressional Record. He did not claim to speak for all Vets, and he did not claim that all vets were war criminals (in spite of the Swiftboating liars spin in 2004); but he did correctly identify that our policies in Viet Nam did make us all party to the criminality of the war. VVAW always supported the troops and the vets; but not the war or those in Washington that kept it going.

Terry J. DuBose, Viet Nam, 1967-1968

Terry;
Thanks for your service to our country.

And the Swifties aren't the only ones. See #92 above by Clavos: "...and he did it by repeating hearsay lies, for which he had no proof, to Congress, at the expense of the reputations of all of the rest of us who served in Vietnam."

(MCH, USN '70-74)

And just in case you didn't get it the first time:

"...and he did it by repeating hearsay lies, for which he had no proof, to Congress, at the expense of the reputations of all of the rest of us who served in Vietnam."

Listen to the video/read the transcript.

He was repeating what he was told at the Winter Soldier Conference, none of which he directly witnessed himself, and without verifying the truth of what he heard, in a public hearing in Congress - at best, totally unethical.

I stand by my characterization of kerry.

Clavos
MACV/USARV - II Corps
1965,1966

"I wouldn't agree that Calley's one of my idols, emmy, but he does rank higher with me than Kerry."


Clavos thinks speaking about alleged atrocities, without having witnessed them, is more morally corrupt than actually committing them.

Way to go Clavos!

"A revealing admission." - Bliffle

#44 -- October 12, 2007 @ 17:47PM -- Clavos

It was intended to be, bliffle.

"Calley fucked over Vietnamese. Kerry fucked over Americans."

Clavos,
It's weirdly curious that you'll condemn this:
"He was repeating what he was told at the Winter Soldier Conference, none of which he directly witnessed himself, and without verifying the truth of what he heard, in a public hearing in Congress - at best, totally unethical."

...but not this:
"Soldiers went berserk, gunning down unarmed men, women, children and babies. Families which huddled together for safety in huts or bunkers were shown no mercy. Those who emerged with hands held high were murdered. ... Elsewhere in the village, other atrocities were in progress. Women were gang raped; Vietnamese who had bowed to greet the Americans were beaten with fists and tortured, clubbed with rifle butts and stabbed with bayonets. Some victims were mutilated with the signature "C Company" carved into the chest. By late morning word had got back to higher authorities and a cease-fire was ordered. My Lai was in a state of carnage. Bodies were strewn through the village."
- Murder in the Name of War - My Lai, BBC, July 20, 1998

....??

"weirdly curious"

I'd say it's disturbingly unethical.

I'd say Clavos is curiously weird.

Well, guys, all three of you (emmy, martin and bliffle) have repeatedly shown your contempt for me, so I don't see any more point in trying to convince any of you any more.

I don't and never will, know any of you; you're just pixels on my screen.

And, since in these threads I've seen nothing to respect in any of you, in the final analysis the whole discussion of my character by you three is meaningless to me.

Enjoy yourselves.

What no margaritas on the boat?

...not sure I get this - Clavos says the massacre was complex and that Kerry is an asshole and you guys have a problem with that - ?

No, the discussion is complex, someone else is an asshole

...but I take it that you can understand why one might condemn Kerry more quickly than those guys who went berserk

Trill, it doesn't sit their various worldviews to look at this issue rationally.

Dave

Not in the least.
But I never "crawled, under fire, through a Vietnamese rice paddy" so I can only base my opinion on logic.
Seems like the only ones pissed at Kerry for what he did, are the ones that voted for Bush.

This grand conspiracy that Kerry had of getting his name in lights for denouncing the war, seems more than far-fetched, it seems simply partisan.

I guess

"...not sure I get this - Clavos says the massacre was complex and that Kerry is an asshole and you guys have a problem with that - ?"

Yep. That about sums it up, troll.

And, as is so often the case, you've cut right to the heart of it.

didn't go for either of them - Gandhi's the man...and I've thought that Kerry was an opportunist since he was a kid - no grand conspiracy...all partisanship aside it was as plain as it could be

"Well, guys, all three of you (emmy, martin and bliffle) have repeatedly shown your contempt for me, so I don't see any more point in trying to convince any of you any more."
- Clavos

Please, spare us the victim role. It belies the macho image you've tried so hard to portray, and doesn't jive with your history of mocking and condemning anyone who disagrees with you.

Among the people who frequently disagree with me and whom I've NEVER "mocked or condemned:"

troll
gonzo marx
Dr. Dreadful
Baritone
Ruvy
Chris Rose
Les Slater
handyguy
Irene Wagner
Nancy
zingzing

Etc., etc.

There are many others, but you get the idea.
Why don't I "mock or condemn" them? Because they are unfailingly polite to everyone, including me, even when disagreeing. Disagreeing per se is not a problem; on the contrary, it's the essence of discussion, and one way we all can learn. Lack of civility, on the other hand, will get you the back of my hand.

I treat people they way they treat me.

If you're rude and an asshole, I'll treat you like one.

Nalle: "Trill".

Trill is a brand of birdseed in Oz, and one favoured by parrots and budgies. That's very mischievous of you Dave. Troll ain't a triller.

As for Benjamin's shocking choice of titfer, I'm tempted to say something like 10 gallons on a two-pint head, but I won't.

It is, however, quite worrying ... and brings back memories of that great quote: "I love the smell of napalm in the morning".

"Lack of civility, on the other hand, will get you the back of my hand."
- Clavos

"If you want to go to heaven, you will fall in seven;
You'll be in a worser fix, if I cut it to six;
If you keep talkin' jive, I'll get you in five;
If you say any more, you'll crash in four;
If you keep talkin' 'bout me, I'll cut it to three;
And if that won't do, you'll go down in two;
And if you're gonna run, I will catch you in one!!"

Where are we going with this?

STM, Sydney, Australia, 1957 -

Strewth, Stan, that doesn't make you much older than I am.

Older enough, of course! ;-)

Dr Dreadlock, London, England, 1966-so far so good

A quiz fer yez, Doc and Stan,

The original, full meaning and the correct pronunciation of Zounds.

In Elizabethan English, as used by the Bard.

God's (i.e. Jesus's, on that big lump of tree they nailed him to) wounds.

Pronounced 'zoonds'!

Also, Clav, to be fair, I'm not always unfailingly polite to everyone as you say. There's always Moonraven and JOM - and, to a lesser extent, Mark Manning when he trash-talks my country.

Manning's a fair-dinkum classic: I love how he tips buckets of sh.t on the Brits but claims he can't leave the place, the poor possum.

I mean, Zounds! come on, doesn't the poor bastard earn a quid or what? I might ring a few mates in London and ask if they can have a whip around for Mark at the Punch and Judy to raise the price of a one-way ticket.

The first rule of loving to hate the poms: you have to be "in the club" to do it. And loving to hate is different to really hating.

Otherwise, it's all just sour grapes. That's why we can do it here, but our mostly polite American cousins generally don't. It's also why we don't generally tip the bucket on the Yanks (who we all quite like anyway, up to a point :)

My suspicion in regards to Manning is that he played up and opened his gob once too often in a London pub somewhere (hope it wasn't in the East End) and inevitably copped a nice knuckle sandwich for his troubles. His experience is thus coloured by spilled claret.

Being a loud-mouthed Aussie, I know from bitter experience how such things can happen ... :)

If he's in a pub and drinking Claret and under the age of 60 should we really have any sympathy for him, whatever happens?

Dave

No, Dave, if that were the scenario, I'd reckon you are dead on the money.

But the claret I mention is the stuff that possibly might have been flowing from his nose/and/or fat lip after the knuckle sandwich.

I reckon Mark loves a pint judging by his picture on BC, and wouldn't be averse to letting people know what he really thinks.

Ah, you're too metaphorical for me, Stan. I'm just a literal minded colonial bumpkin.

dave

@#131,

Bingo, Doc.

You'd be amazed (or maybe not?) at how many on this side of the Pond can't answer that correctly.

MR and JOM (and MEM, too) deserve what they get from all of us; as I said above: reciprocity rules.

It's Show Time. Ft. Lauderdale Int'l Boat Show opens on the 25th, and we start moving boats in today, so I'm off for a spot of boating this morning. This year's edition will feature more than $2 billion worth of toys, and lots of Arab sheiks (though not Hugo Chavez) will be here shopping.

This seems close to racism:

"#44 -- October 12, 2007 @ 17:47PM -- Clavos
...
Calley fucked over Vietnamese. Kerry fucked over Americans."

...hard to fight a war and not harbor a bit of nationalism don'cha know

"I treat people they way they treat me. If you're rude and an asshole, I'll treat you like one."
- Clavos

I have noticed that you do have this self-view of yourself of being more perfect than you really are...

"...self-view of yourself..."

Quoted for everyone's enjoyment.

Martin - *But I never "crawled, under fire, through a Vietnamese rice paddy" so I can only base my opinion on logic.*

try empathy - a more appropriate and powerful tool for situations like this...it's unfortunate that so many folks choose to passionately ignore it

"Kerry's 1971 speech was responsible for the way Vietnam vets were treated in 1966."
- Clavos

Quoted for everyone's enjoyment.

"Quoted for everyone's enjoyment."
- Clavos

I'm enjoying that apostrophe...

"Kerry's 1971 speech was responsible for the way Vietnam vets were treated in 1966."

Since I never said that, the quotation marks are inappropriate, emmy.

I'm enjoying that apostrophe..."

Glad you are, shuffleboard boy.

FYI, "everyone" is an indefinite pronoun. As such, it takes an apostrophe to become possessive.

"Indefinite pronouns use apostrophes to indicate possessive case."

Check it out.

"But then, that;'s what makes America great, isn't it?"
- Clavos, #49

So professor, what's the ruling on the semi-colon above?

An errant finger.

Which I'm sending your way, shuffleboard boy.

Oh, Gawd. Larry and Curly are at it again.

Stop before you give each other brain damage.

I had tons of respect for John Kerry until I recognized one of his supporters was Delbert Sandusky. Once upon a time I knew 'Del' and telling the WHOLE truth is not one of his strong suits. The Kerry campaign seemed to just gloss over the fact that a very public supporter of him had alcohol and drug addiction issues and was reported for beating his son so badly that he literally could not sit in school. It was then that I decided that if kerry had to dig that deep to find supporters, he did not belong in office.