Blogcritics Comments on God's Warriors

Comment by Baritone on God's Warriors

Mon, 10 Sep 2007 01:01:58 EDT

Irene, It's late, I'm taking stuff to clear out my innards for an upcoming colonoscopy, and I have to jump and run abruptly from time to time. So this comment might turn out a bit hurky jerky. Above you said, I don't deny that atheists would be willing to die for their country, but that's a death for something the atheist believes in, not for something the atheist doesn't believe in. I think that is really wrong headed of you. What such a person would be willing to die for is his or her convictions. And as has been mentioned, the Inquisition is perhaps the most heinous example of mass killing for god, but there have been many others throughout civilized history. A number of them are depicted in the bible. And I should add that I have read from more than one source that the rationale for killing anyone believed to be a heretic in what were often barbarous ways was as I noted above. Those who ordered such killings claimed that the extreme manner in which heretics were put to death was that by forcing them to suffer great agony, it would expiate their souls and force out satan. Of course, it was all a load of crap, but who was going to question the inquisitor? Irene, you are obviously sincere and very well versed in the bible and the related history and literature. But that does not go one step in proving the existence of god. Even if the examples of Stalinist Russia and the other communist regimes of the world stood as evidence of the moral bankruptcy of atheists, which I firmly do NOT believe, that still would not further support the notion of god's existence. Zedd, yourself and others I have encountered usually refer to some profound, personal revelation that solidified your belief. But, and as I stated above to Zedd, it is such an event or series of events through which believers convince themselves of their acceptance of god. Again, though, this fails to serve as any kind of proof. I don't believe that faith - especially faith in god - is a virture. Such faith has sent us down the garden path repeatedly to all kinds of horrors. I look upon most evangelists as the equivalent of snake oil salesmen. Most of them stand before their growing congregations and sell their parishoners a bill of goods and then laugh all the way to the bank. They are purveyers of a fraud, for the purpose of fattening their pocket books and/or for their own personal aggrandizement. I digress. B-tone

Comment by Irene Wagner on God's Warriors

Sun, 9 Sep 2007 22:57:01 EDT

The ol' man is coming in from his gardening any minute Duane. Point taken. ;) *curtseys to Clavos and Catey *

Comment by duane on God's Warriors

Sun, 9 Sep 2007 22:11:20 EDT

No, Irene, I don't want to argue about who is more violet than whom. Violets are not the primary concern, if you ask me. And who is this Dawkins character you speak of? Some authority figure who issues marching orders to those mindless antitheistic sheep? Hmmph. I suggest you address him if you have issues with him. I don't see anyone here trying to make his points. ------ Last Saturday night, I got married, Me and my wife settled down Now me and my wife are parted, I'm gonna take another stroll downtown Sometimes I live in the country, Sometimes I live in town Sometimes I take a great notion, To jump into the river and drown I love Irene, God knows I do, I'll love her till the seas run dry But if Irene should turn me down, I'd take the morphine and die Stop rambling, stop your gambling, Stop staying out late at night Go home to your wife and your family, Stay there by your fireside bright --- Leadbelly

Comment by Catey on God's Warriors

Sun, 9 Sep 2007 21:51:13 EDT

Thank you for bringing Polycarp to our attention Irene. I, too, enjoy reading your steadfast faith :)

Comment by Clavos on God's Warriors

Sun, 9 Sep 2007 21:36:57 EDT

@ 192, 193: You're nothing if not interesting to read, Irene. Have to give you that. Good sense of humor, too. Props. Clavos The Unbeliever.

Comment by Irene Wagner on God's Warriors

Sun, 9 Sep 2007 21:25:52 EDT

Another one of my favorite exchanges: Atheist: HA! So you're a Christian! Explain the Spanish Inquisition if you're so peaceful! Christian2:....*Exchange about Communism and Atheism, described above, frequently ensues.* Christian2...so you see, the Bible gives strict injunctions to Christians against that sort of behaviour. That's why not all Christians, or even Catholics, are in the same class as El Torquemada. Atheist: Ummm, so NOW BIBLE Christian, explain the paradox of omniscience and predestination with human liberty...or what happens to people who have never heard of Jesus...or what about people who live selfish lives and come to Jesus on their death beds... Christian2: Well I'll give it a shot. Here goes. .... Atheists: Well what do you KNOW, she used the BIBLE! WE don't believe the Bible. The Bible is a crock o' crap. Here's a LINK that PROVES it! You're trying to convince us not to be Atheists by quoting the BIBLE? Christian2: Well no, you had some misconceptions about what Christians believed about certain subjects, and YOU ASKED ME for an explanation of what Christians believe. Doesn't it make sense for me to quote the Bible to describe the belief of Christians, who for all their diversity, have a working agreement as to what constitutes orthodoxy--through referring to the Bible and its historic interpretations? whoEVAH: It's crazy to quote the Bible in a discussion about God. Only what Richard Dawkins says is taken seriously around here. Christian2: *puts head on desk and pounds, then goes to talk about Ron Paul on a thread no Democrat would bother with* "We didn't start the fire But when we are gone Will it still burn on, and on, and on, and on..." (Billy Joel)

Comment by Irene Wagner on God's Warriors

Sun, 9 Sep 2007 21:01:43 EDT

It's not a moot point and certainly NOT a mute one, Duane. I'm a persistent loudmouth with a good memory: the Communist-atheistic snark to which I refer is in the HomoExpectus thread. I'm sure both of us have seen the scenario played out hundreds of times online: 1. Christians have a bloody history VS. 2. Not all Christians were violent, besides what about the Communists? VS. 3. *AS THE WRATH OF THE GODLESS SWOOPS DOWN* ARE YOU SUGGESTING THAT ALL ATHEISTS BECOME COMMUNISTS AND THAT NONE OF THEM HAVE ANY INDEPENDENT MORAL COMPASS. VS. 4. No, I... VS. 5. Yes, you were VS. (later that thread, or that week, or both) 6. Christian: now, not all atheists become Communists, but the ones like Richard Dawkins who suggest taking children away from believing parents seem to have a lot in common in terms of methodology. VS. 7. Atheist *slinking around the "taking children away from believing parents" issue for the fourth time this week*: Huh? Did you hear that? She said that not all atheists become Communists. Well, duh. Typical faithist scheme... So Duane, the two of us won't be having that PARTICULAR argument, the one above, anymore, yes? ==raises eyebrows and smiles hopefully==

Comment by duane on God's Warriors

Sun, 9 Sep 2007 20:27:10 EDT

Irene, you saying something like, "Not all atheists will become Communists" is like me saying something like, "Not all believers will become suicide bombers," or "Not all believers cheat on their spouses." As I've said before (or at least implied), I don't see that worldly moral and political issues have a thing to do with the metaphysical questions associated with the existence of God. Your "communist" remark is just an example of you over-simplifying human nature, viz., atheists tend to oppose democratic government. ...the last time I omitted the silly disclaimer about not all atheists becoming Communists, you raised a snark, too. I believe that #183 is the first commie-based snark I've raised, but it's a mute point. I'm glad that atheists are not being murdered for their lack of faith any more. Yeah, me too. I'm glad that atheists are not being murdered for having the guts for holding to what appears to be self-evident to them. By the way, good job arguing with all these atheists. We haven't had anyone around here with your persistence for a long while. Carry on.

Comment by Irene Wagner on God's Warriors

Sun, 9 Sep 2007 19:01:08 EDT

I saw Luciano Pavarotti in concert, once, and I never will forget it. People around me had tears rolling down their cheeks. I wonder what it was like for him in the final months, when that once magnificent voice was losing its power? Maybe somewhere on another plane, he's singing again? Even YOU, I'll bet, Baritone, would like to imagine that this is so...I look forward to reading the Pavarotti article after I finish my comment here. A comment made before the article read--not the first time that's happened at BC. *** Duane, the last time I omitted the silly disclaimer about not all atheists becoming Communists, you raised a snark, too. I can't win with you. *** Baritone, I want to tell you about a coincidence. This morning, I was mulling over the information you supplied in your last comment to me, about its only being the last couple of centuries that atheists haven't been burned at stake in order to "save their souls." Questions I had included: what AntiGod would be worth being drawn and quartered for? If life is truly all one has, then why would not the typical atheist make the bogus confession of faith made by the torturer, most of the "believers" in the kingdom, and more than likely, the sovereign who ordered the execution? How were the atheists identified, so as to be brought into the hands of the executioner? Christians considered it an honor to die so. Would there have been so very many atheists who considered it an honor to die for atheism as well, who would identify as atheists even if they knew it would mean death? I don't deny that atheists would be willing to die for their country, but that's a death for something the atheist believes in, not for something the atheist doesn't believe in. *** The answer may be in the definition of "atheist." I had a few minutes to wait for my family in the church library this morning, and I pulled a book off the shelf about the Early Church Fathers. After a few pages were turned, what phrase should appear but "Away with the Atheists!" Here is the context: "On February 26, 156, the day of [Polycarp's] martyrdom in Smyrna, the procunsul pleaded with him to recant and to "swear by the fortune of Caesar" (Encyclical Letter,ix, ANF, I, 41) and join with an infuriated mob of both Jews and Gentiles in the mad cry, "Away with the Atheists!" When offered his freedom by blaspheming Christ, Polycarp courageously replied: "Eighty and six years have I served him, and He never did me any injury: how then can I blaspheme my king and Saviour? (ibid)" The first miracle many a nonbeliever has witnessed is the manner in which such a man as Polycarp died. *** I'm glad that atheists are not being murdered for their lack of faith any more, at least not in ostensibly Christian countries--militant Islam is an equal opportunity executioner for Christians, atheists and Jews, as well as the "wrong kind" of Muslims. I can't vouch for the depth of spirituality of "Christian" torturers and executioners. I identify with the believers who headed for remote places with their communities (for example, the one founded by Menno--his spiritual descendants are Christian Mennonites) to avoid being drafted into the service of "Christian" leaders who would require them to murder in the name of their Saviour. These believers were branded as heretics, and were also executioners' fodder if they were caught. Not surprisingly, there have been more Christian Martyrdoms in the last century than in all the 19 centuries before. Source for this data is the Voice of the Martyrs, a world-wide advocacy organization for Christians imprisoned--some awaiting death sentences--for their faith. Militant Islam is one cause for the high numbers of Christian martyrs in the last century, but Islam militants have been in power in earlier centuries as well. Highly significant is the fact that materialistic atheism---in for example, the USSR, Eastern Bloc countries, Vietnam, North Korea and Red China--which eschewed any association with a god, even a pagan god, didn't have significant power before the 20th century. (There was the eighteenth century Reign of Terror in France, but that was mercifully short.) This Baritone, is why I find such popular TV shows as "God's Warriors," and Richard Dawkins' suggestion to "reconsider" the rights of believing parents particularly troubling, and my hope for you Baritone, the one hope for you that I can be sure of, given the information about yourself that you have shared with us, is that as a lover of freedom, you at one point will be troubled by them as well.

Comment by Baritone on God's Warriors

Sun, 9 Sep 2007 14:09:52 EDT

I submitted a short piece in the "Culture" section of BC regarding the passing of Luciano Pavarotti. Apparently, that's not the type of "culture" most readers here at BC have an interest in. Not a singe comment. I thought about posting it in the "Music" section but all I found there was stuff about head banging, rap and other genres that don't have much to say to this old fart. So, I opted for Culture. I suppose if Luciano had fathered a child by Anna Nicole Smith or Paris Hilton, or been caught with his pants down in the backseat of Britney Spears' car when she was stopped for speeding, I suppose there might have been some interest. But, alas, no. Should any of you "politicos" have an interest or curiosity, check out my article and click on the "U-Tube" link. It's good stuff. B-tone

Comment by Baritone on God's Warriors

Sun, 9 Sep 2007 13:50:52 EDT

Zedd, It's fairly obvious that neither of us is going to change the other's position regarding god. Should I ever experience that "revelation" I'll let you know. I'm fairly certain that in the eyes of most christian evangelicals, you are not on track for the paradise express. You would be described as a loathsome liberal. Of course, from my point of view, that's a good thing. You are apparently searching and open to new ideas and ideals. That,too, is a good thing. I don't consider myself obdurate, nor stupid. Should such a revelation come to me, I would certainly be open to it. But whatever it's nature, it would have to be definitive and pretty unmistakable. Some vague tingling of my senses or some kind of a hunch would not do it. Of course, I don't anticipate such an event. I am pretty certain of my site. I don't feel sad, or diminished by it. I'm quite happy with where I am. B-tone

Comment by Zedd on God's Warriors

Sun, 9 Sep 2007 12:04:51 EDT

Baritone, I forgot to respond to a part of your last statement to me. I was not making my statement in a condescending way. You want to understand what I am talking about so that you can discuss it with confidence. I was saying that I believe that one day you will understand it. Being raised in a Christian environment (more so than most people), I never bought the magical and emotional explanations for things. I like Nancy wanted to believe but just couldn't buy what was being offered to me as THE truth. I was graced with a revelation from God which answered MY questions about who I am in Him. Again yes I'm being vague. But the reason that I said that I believe that you will get to understand who He is for yourself, is because of my personal experiences. I am a person who remains curious, who doesn't buy something because people just say it is so without a logical reason. I don't buy the psychology trends of the week (massive molestations and repressed memories, exponential ADD, wide spread bipolar, inborn static sexual preference or a NEED for therapy do deal with life's challenges that have taken place since the conception of our species). I don't buy into White Supremacy. It's in every part of our society, world over. The assumption that European-ism is best or superior or right is ridiculous. It just is and that is all. I don't buy political absolutes so I am not a member of any one party. I certainly don't believe that Capitalism is superior or should be a standard by which we judge goodness of efficiency for that matter. I believe in solutions that match the problem. I believe in change, love and good solutions.

Comment by Zedd on God's Warriors

Sun, 9 Sep 2007 11:33:24 EDT

Baritone, I am also HIGHLY concerned about those same Evangelicals.

Comment by Baritone on God's Warriors

Sat, 8 Sep 2007 16:08:52 EDT

Irene, I would remind you of some history. It's only been the last couple of hundred years or so, and that only in certain parts of the world, that atheists haven't been burnt at the stake or drawn and quartered in what the powers that be would have had you believe was being done only to save their mortal souls. With such "love" one doesn't need any enemies. With respect to Dawkins and the rest, what you characterize as "hatred" is not as you think. While Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens, etal certainly dislike religion per se and find great fault with many of the more dubious religious leaders, they certainly do not "hate" christians or jews or even muslims, nor do I. Virtually all of my family, friends, colleagues, etc. are christians. I don't hate them. I'm sure Dawkins and the rest have religious friends and family. My primary concern is with a # of evangelicals in the U.S who are bent on instituting a theocratic American government. It is their intent that the Constitution as we know it will be significantly altered or trashed altogether in favor of enforcing "biblical law" as they interpret it. That is in effect a license to abuse power. B-tone

Comment by duane on God's Warriors

Sat, 8 Sep 2007 15:08:29 EDT

Baritone, #179, very nice. You've correctly identified one of the ploys of the faithful.

Comment by duane on God's Warriors

Sat, 8 Sep 2007 14:59:06 EDT

Irene: Not all atheists will become Communists.... Ya think?

Comment by Irene Wagner on God's Warriors

Sat, 8 Sep 2007 14:14:58 EDT

Catey, Your recounting of that experience was encouraging to me. Richard Dawkins is recommending that atheists who have taken their antireligious convictions to, as Baritone describes it, the "next level," have the right and duty to step in and interfere when religious folk try to instruct their children in aspects of their faith which are "untrue." The link I posted to quotes Dawkins expressing this. What were men and women "fighting for freedom" in the US army trying to protect? I doubt that this was the scenario they had in mind. With every religion-hating atheist Dawkins pumps up with this vision, with every viewer of the "God's Warrior," who, in sorry ignorance of twentieth century history, is taught to believe that believers are the cause of the world's violence, there will be more and more hatred of believers. Not all atheists will become Communists a la Chairman Mao's executors of the 1968 Cultural Revolution, or "Uncle Joe Stalin's" eastern European and Russian purges. It seems to be the intent of Dawkins and the producers of "God's Warriors," that some of them will. The end will justify the means. A number of them will be convinced that by eradicating belief in God, even by violence, there will finally be peace and harmony on this earth. But there is a Power more powerful coming down the mountain... Thankyou, Catey. I will miss you, too.

Comment by Baritone on God's Warriors

Sat, 8 Sep 2007 11:30:07 EDT

Zedd, What you say might be, but I never understood it in that way. To me, though, it comes down to not so much false, but as unnecessary modesty. B-tone

Comment by Zedd on God's Warriors

Sat, 8 Sep 2007 09:47:26 EDT

Baritone, Perhaps when they are saying that God is responsible, they are saying that they didn't know which turn to take while in the burning structure, they couldn't see or that they were disoriented and ended up finding the person and finding their way out of the building, not knowing what they were doing or where they were going and are sort of bemused as to how it all happened.

Comment by Baritone on God's Warriors

Fri, 7 Sep 2007 11:35:13 EDT

Zedd, I didn't "forget" from whence you came. I'm a relative newby to BC. I don't know your story. What you are describing, though as regards your revelations I see as a construct in your mind. You accept it, and it apparently works for you, which is good as far as that goes. However, that does not in any way confirm the existence of god. It illustrates the manner in which you have convinced yourself that god is out there watching over you. I think you are very sincere and do truly believe of what you speak. But your notion of god is so etherial that no one can refute your position. There is nothing on which to hang an argument. Your god is dust in the wind. Any notion of god, especially that of a truly personal god is, in my mind, preposterous. If this god is so unimaginably manifest, it requires a rather large ego to believe that this wondrous power is even slightly aware of any one person's existence, let alone their day to day, moment to moment lives. Your rejoinder has been that, well, I, and others of my ilk are just not able to comprehend. And, maddeningly, you suggest that one day I, too, will have a great revelation that will make me see the error of my ways, as if I am simply an uninformed child who just hasn't opened his eyes to see. My oldest brother was a fundamentalist minister. Anytime we got into such discussions, he would nearly always cut it short with the same kind of statement: "You don't believe now, but one day the light will enter your heart, and you will step over." or some such. That is consistent with the tiresome statement, "There are no atheists in foxholes." To me and other non-believers, that is an insult as it suggests that we would lose our skepticism the moment our asses were in jeapordy, that the moment a bullet grazed our helmet, or a shell exploded nearby that we would immediately abandon our convictions and grovel before a new found god for salvation. I know you don't mean anything as an insult, but in my experience such statements have been made by people with a knowing and rather condescending smile. It is for me, a blood boiler. People who claim that god got them through a period of trial are simply misinformed. Their belief in god may have helped them cope. But if they managed to survive, they did so either through their own efforts or, perhaps more often by the luck of the draw. I always wince when someone who just, say saved someone from a burning house when questioned about it say that god was responsible, not them. I know that is often said as it is generally expected of them in order to be adequately humble. But god had nothing to do with it. It was simply someone who responded well to a critical situation. I'm not suggesting that they should stand up and claim great hero status and expect great rewards. But the false humility is almost as maddening. I suppose I am digressing a bit too far. Suffice it to say that you are apparently content with your belief. That's fine. But each of us believes that the other just doesn't "get it." I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. B-tone

Comment by Zedd on God's Warriors

Fri, 7 Sep 2007 10:50:19 EDT

Baritone, But, I would be curious to know if any former non-believers changed their mind when they concluded that god had, in fact, revealed himself to them. I suppose there are a few. That is what conversion is. Millions have experienced that "phenomenon?". My apologies that I cant be specific enough for you. I know you feel short changes and I would too if I were you. If I could explain God's revelation, to you, then spiritual belief would be an intellectual conclusion and its not. Religious faith would be science and it is not, at least in as far as what we understand about he universe. Perhaps in a billion years we will have a greater understanding of science and matters of the Divine will be proved to be correlated with physical manifestations, who knows. Or maybe we will discover that spiritual matters ARE physical and exist at a level that we haven't been able to quantify before. Who knows.... I suppose that is why the phrase that you quoted exists. Perhaps the last knowledge will be God. As for your comments on the oppressed of the world. You forget where I am from... I have known such people and the testimony that I have heard over and over again is that their relationship with God WAS the liberating force in their lives. Was it an opiate, perhaps, but it was what brought them comfort. Its difficult, especially in modern society to focus on the spirit, the inner man, its hard NOT focus on the emotional, and physical man. At an age when Hollywood endings are EXPECTED and not getting one at the end of every day is the cause for depression, it is difficult to imagine a time when man didn't have such expectations. It is difficult to even concieve that the only people who could even voice things the way that you have would be a few nobility and even they, with less expectation of "comfort" than we have. To make my point more vivid.... If you can imagine the Neanderthal and how they engaged. One probably got pushed rather rudely or knocked down a few times during the day. No visit to a shrink, nothing. Even though they had established forms of "etiquette", I'm sure, the weaker ones got messed over more, the more influential ones took the spoil most of the time. They probably got their feelings hurt and some felt dispair but they also took it that it was just life as a Neanderthal. Skip a "few" generations and we have developed more elabrate social structures, as we should. We have also created alternate realities where we don't believe that our lives are really our lives. Many of us walk around believing that our experiences shouldn't be occuring and that a better life belongs to us. Regardless of our status, we believe that we SHOULD experience better. Shrinks have done a number on us and off course cenema has too. Now going back to our discussion. The point about distiguishing the benefits of Gods revelation vs God fixing someones physical or emotional circumstance is, if my soul has a deep longing and that longing is filled by God, then my soul is fed and is at rest, regardless of my circumstance.

Comment by Baritone on God's Warriors

Fri, 7 Sep 2007 00:18:04 EDT

Zedd again, I just read your last comment. No, I was not refering simply to material things. I'm refering to people who have led lives filled with brutality, lives of desperation, living in constant fear, and, yes living in physical depravation. These are things that not only attack the body, but the mind and heart as well. I doubt that there are many of us who visit here have ever had such an experience except maybe in brief incidents, myself included. But we do see such people who occasionally rise up out of seemingly hopeless circumstances and keep on truckin', as it were. Some will claim that god brought them through, but many will just claim that they refused to quit simply because they wanted to live another day. B-tone

Comment by Catey on God's Warriors

Fri, 7 Sep 2007 00:11:06 EDT

Speaking of imagery.... One day out of the blue, I "saw" figures in shadow, the only things distinguishable being their flowing robes around their sandaled feet. They appeared over a hill as if coming into a town, and I sensed fear at the approach of these figures.. Jesus of Nazareth, Peter, James, and John. It sounds juvenile to actually put what I saw in my minds eye down into words, but it was very powerful to me personally. It wasn't a vision or even religious experience, just a quick snapshot out of time that conveyed the fear of evil in the presence of the Holy One.

Comment by Baritone on God's Warriors

Fri, 7 Sep 2007 00:07:42 EDT

Zedd, You misunderstood me a bit. I did not say, or at least mean to say that god's revealing himself to you was a miracle per se. I did equate it with one, however. Also, the miracles I refered to as regards believers and non-believers were not meant to be construed as a revelation of god specifically, but rather things like miracle cures of supposedly terminally ill people, or others being touched by an evangelist and suddenly being able to get up out of their wheel chairs, etc. - those kinds of supposed "miracles." No, I would not expect an atheist or agnostic to claim that god had revealed himself to any of them. But, I would be curious to know if any former non-believers changed their mind when they concluded that god had, in fact, revealed himself to them. I suppose there are a few. I don't think I've ever claimed to "know" that there is no god. I am, of course, pretty confident about my position and I live my life by that supposition. I accept it as true. There is, however, no shortage of those who claim to "know" that god does exist. I'm still feeling a bit short changed, though as regards your descriptions of god's revelations to you. I certainly don't need to know specifics, especially if you feel it's too personal, but some kind of general recounting of one such event would be of interest. B-tone

Comment by Zedd on God's Warriors

Thu, 6 Sep 2007 23:37:54 EDT

Baritone, Certainly, life presents its challenges. Look at the hundreds of millions of people through the ages who have lived absolutely abject, and by most any standard, horrible lives. They had and have little or nothing for which to thank any god. Are we talking money or material stuff here? If we are, we are on very different pages. I am talking about ones inner spirit. I am talking about the person, their thought life, their take on being. I am not speaking about circumstance. God reveals himself to the inner person, in ways that speak to that person's essence. He may use material things or situations to declare His presence but what he speaks to is the deeper part of man. Unfortunately it is not always about physical things. I wish it was. While I'm almost certain that what I have stated makes absolutely no sense to you, I had to make that major clarification. The reason that I keep stating that the revelation of God to man is personal, is because that is how He would have to be if he was the true God. He would know the individual's inner self, their minute essence and speak to that directly, to the extent that nothing else could possibly make that impact but a supreme being. I hope that one day you will understand what I am talking about. Thanks for the dialog.