Blogcritics Comments on In The News: Gordon Brown, Boiled Islamofanatic, and Shambo The Bull

Comment by Dave Nalle on In The News: Gordon Brown, Boiled Islamofanatic, and Shambo The Bull

Tue, 31 Jul 2007 16:02:54 EDT

Nancy, are you sure you're not Judge Hershey in disguise? Dave

Comment by gonzo marx on In The News: Gordon Brown, Boiled Islamofanatic, and Shambo The Bull

Tue, 31 Jul 2007 15:10:42 EDT

i guess there's just no reaching some folks Nancy - what makes you different than them, then? this example is IN PRISON, what more do you want? or do we just execute all criminals? where does it stop, instant execution for jaywalking? or for dissent against the Administration on a blog? think it through Excelsior?

Comment by Nancy on In The News: Gordon Brown, Boiled Islamofanatic, and Shambo The Bull

Tue, 31 Jul 2007 15:08:16 EDT

As long as this guy is breathing, he's not helpless. He still has his mind, & his mouth. He can still make plans, & transmit them to others. When he's braindead, plain dead, or unconscious, he'll be a "helpless prisoner"; not until or unless. Sorry. No quarter.

Comment by gonzo marx on In The News: Gordon Brown, Boiled Islamofanatic, and Shambo The Bull

Tue, 31 Jul 2007 15:04:46 EDT

Nancy, do please read this again BIG difference between the Fight, and a helpless, captured prisoner got it? do what is needed to defend yourself, take the Foe out but when he is down and handcuffed, you can't kick him in the head...when you have defeated him, and placed him in jail, you can't go torturing and abusing him otherwise you are NO better than he is...just another criminal hope that helps Excelsior?

Comment by Nancy on In The News: Gordon Brown, Boiled Islamofanatic, and Shambo The Bull

Tue, 31 Jul 2007 14:55:18 EDT

Sorry, but taking the high moral road doesn't do anything except put yourself & other innocent people in danger from those who have no morals. When I was in basic training, I was taught by my MSgt that there is no such thing as a fair fight. So the one time I got the drop on him, once he was down, I kicked him in the chops, followed by the gazongas to make sure he stayed down. Once he recovered, he didn't flatten me like I was afraid he would if he caught me. Instead he gave me his best congrats, because as he said, I had learned the most basic fact: there is no such thing as a "fair fight" ... except in a boxing ring. Certainly not in combat, war, or any other adversarial exercise, including in the courtroom, obviously. The ONLY way there can be a fair fight is if both/all contestants hold to the same standards. Which in this case, they most certainly don't. Hence, whatever it takes, do it. If it means going lower, so be it. After all, fear is a powerful deterrant. For years, no one dared to attack the Russians, because everyone was scared stiff knowing they'd be creamed when - not if - the russkies caught up with them. Only the internal collapse of Soviet Russia allowed conditions to deteriorate to such a degree that the Chechens would dare to actually start attacking Russian targets - & even now, they do it with extreme caution, knowing the reprisals will be savage WHEN - not IF - they come. Nuff said.

Comment by gonzo marx on In The News: Gordon Brown, Boiled Islamofanatic, and Shambo The Bull

Tue, 31 Jul 2007 01:33:05 EDT

Ruvy - the way you deal with the Gem is to look at the whole thing, NOT just peer through a fraction or fractal to wit - "helpless" those prisoners are indeed helpless, in the Power of the State, and THAT is the helplessness i speak of..yes they can hurt each other, even occasionally a guard... but the State can place them in solitary, beat, drug, deprive of food..or any other abuse they can think of, even killing them...THIS is the helplessness of a prisoner and the Responsibility of the Jailer you keep bringing up Mandela...allow me to remind you that out of billions of Prisoners over the centuries, Mandela stands almost alone..and that his wife accomplished much of the progress to end Apartheid in many ways protecting a helpless human being from being abused more while recuperating from being scaled with boiling oil is hardly a giving Power to anyone, it's doing the humane and Responsible thing...what Power did the helpless, burned man have? you are really reaching here, Ruvy, and allowing your intense hatred cloud your good sense as well as your Humanity, imo flip the script...put an Israeli in a prison and have him scalded by prisoners...would you not insist that the recuperating man be guarded for his own safety? even a criminal? back to Mandela...in his case you are talking about a man who represented the Ideals of a majority of the population struggling against an unfair regime...a far cry from a terrorist in Britain, who obviously does not even have support amongst other criminals...so again, your Analogy is fallacious and wash yer mouth out with soap for even thinking me and lawyer in the same breath... be safe and well., my Best to you and yours Excelsior?

Comment by Dr Dreadful on In The News: Gordon Brown, Boiled Islamofanatic, and Shambo The Bull

Tue, 31 Jul 2007 01:28:29 EDT

Ruvy, the round-the-clock police guard wasn't so much to protect Barot from others as to protect others from him. Standard practice when a dangerous prisoner is receiving hospital treatment. What would you have had them do: leave the bugger alone so that he could discharge himself and disappear as soon as he could walk? And I believe Mr Mandela approached things a little differently than Barot and his ilk. Not a good analogy.

Comment by Ruvy in Jerusalem on In The News: Gordon Brown, Boiled Islamofanatic, and Shambo The Bull

Tue, 31 Jul 2007 01:03:04 EDT

Gonzo, The funny thing about facts is that they are like diamonds - they are multi-faceted; what you see depends on which facet of the diamond you look through. That this terrorist was attacked the way he was indicates that the prisoners in the prison he was in are anything but helpless. Helpless people cannot get hold of scalding water or oil with ease. To characterize this terrorist - or his prison mates who attacked him - as "helpless" is a gross distortion of reality worthy of a good attorney. Following your arguments here tell me you may have missed your Calling. Seriously, though, to follow the analogy a bit further, the treatment this terrorist got while recuperating in hospital - "receiving round-the-clock police protection while there" accomplishes exactly what you complain my view of them does, by giving "them the Power they so desperately seek... and advancing their Agenda." Eventually, Nelson Mndela, from his prison cell, was able to bring down the rotting apartheid régime in Suid Afrika. That is what these terrorist bastards in Britain would love to do as well - and as Mr. Manning points out, the Brits in power are helping them along.

Comment by STM on In The News: Gordon Brown, Boiled Islamofanatic, and Shambo The Bull

Mon, 30 Jul 2007 22:38:49 EDT

Mark: Having said all that though, I respect your right to hold an opinion that's contrary to mine - diametrically opposed even. That's the beauty of the place you are living, and if you were honest with yourself, you'd see that what George Bush (and international cronies like John W. Howard) is doing at the moment is slowly chipping away at that fundamental right. Sadly, you don't seem to be able to see the wood for the trees. I'll say again, you are lucky to be living in the UK. I'll be there is three weeks. Stay tuned and I'll let you know if anything changes my opinions.

Comment by STM on In The News: Gordon Brown, Boiled Islamofanatic, and Shambo The Bull

Mon, 30 Jul 2007 22:22:05 EDT

MEM: "And Australia is not nearly as multiculti as Britain or America -- not even by half. Yes, it is, a bit, but not greatly so." Bollocks. That statement only confirms my belief that a great part of what you write is, with respect, unresearched bullsh.t. I won't go so far as pure unadulterated twaddle, but sometimes it looks close. You have no concept of your own justice system either if you think it's any different to the British one. They are virtually identical, and Guantanamo is a bit of bullsh.t incvented by the Bush administration. It's a kangaroo court. Granted, most of the people there are scumbags, but in dispensing with Habeus Corpus, Bush has made a mockery of American Justice. That is why Tony Blair (and good on him) made sure the Pom detainees were taken home. This ain't Nazi Germany. I digress, though .... on the other point, one in four Australians is from somewhere else - Asia being a huge component of that figure. The place is full of Pacific Islanders, people from all parts of Europe, the Middle East, South Africa and other parts of Africa ... 25 per cent. That's one in every four Australians born somewhere else. As DD says, if you were ever here, and I suspect you weren't, you must have walked around with your eyes closed. One in four foreign-born makes us more multicultural than any other western society. So I do know what I'm talking about when it comes to this stuff. It hasn't made this place worse either. IMO it's a better place for all its immigrants.

Comment by Dr Dreadful on In The News: Gordon Brown, Boiled Islamofanatic, and Shambo The Bull

Mon, 30 Jul 2007 17:20:11 EDT

Nancy, Your argument that terrorists, child molesters and similar monsters deserve extreme punishment (torture, basically) because they are criminally incorrigible makes no sense. The degree of punishment, be it a sheltered prison cell or the waterboards of Guantanamo, is irrelevant because sociopaths don't understand that what they did to merit it is wrong. So punishing a sociopath is pointless. Its only purpose is to make those offended against feel better. As gonzo so astutely points out, what does it say about the souls of the jailer and his society if it pleases us to commit wanton cruelty as heinous as, or worse than, the criminal's?

Comment by gonzo marx on In The News: Gordon Brown, Boiled Islamofanatic, and Shambo The Bull

Mon, 30 Jul 2007 17:02:54 EDT

Ruvy - you also appear to miss the simple declarative where i state the difference between Defending yourself, and holding a helpless Prisoner in your (society's)care you see some kind of threat to society, i see a tiny fraction of the world's population trying to pretend they matter much more than they really do by extravagant criminal behavior to treat them as anything more than that gives them the Power they so desperately seek...but thinking of them as anything more than psychotic criminals with a political Agenda, you advance their Agenda, imo hence my position, which i am pretty certain you understand Excelsior?

Comment by Ruvy in Jerusalem on In The News: Gordon Brown, Boiled Islamofanatic, and Shambo The Bull

Mon, 30 Jul 2007 16:50:19 EDT

Gonzo, Please note that I do not davka condone this barbaric behavior in a prison. But most prisoners represent a threat to the peace and good order of a given society. These terrorists represent a threat to the society itself. There is a fundamental difference between the one threat and another. As for the Jailor and the Society he represents, his Society, if it fails to defend itself against existential threats, will fall. Nelson Mandela spent about three decades in prison, but from the inside of that prison exercised an immense amount of influence. This is beginning to happen here today with Jonathan Pollard, who from his American prison cell, exercises influence here. Think about what I'm telling you. This is all on top the very basic differences in fundamental values between these Wahhabi terrorists and yourself.

Comment by gonzo marx on In The News: Gordon Brown, Boiled Islamofanatic, and Shambo The Bull

Mon, 30 Jul 2007 16:35:10 EDT

Nancy..it's not about whether the person in jail is human...it's about the Jailor himself, and the Society he represents i'm with you on detesting many types of criminal behavior, but we...as a Society, have to be better than the criminals we incarcerate, or what Right do we have to cage them or Judge them? i guess this is one we just have ti disagree on Excelsior?

Comment by zingzing on In The News: Gordon Brown, Boiled Islamofanatic, and Shambo The Bull

Mon, 30 Jul 2007 15:18:59 EDT

"there comes a point when you have to stop being sympathetic to or expecting 'human' responses from those who have none." um. maybe there is, but you don't have to stoop to their level. you get disgusted, but you don't become disgusting yourself. "Anyone capable of carrying out the kind of conscienceless mayhem of a serial killer, child molester, or terrorist (or BushCo for that matter) is NOT operating on human mores, & has no capacity for it, either" and neither does/is someone who tortures an unarmed person and then wishes for their violent death... "if you don't fight fire with fire, you're gonna get fried to a crisp." right. true. but this is a guy in prison who got cornered by several individuals and burned. he's the one who got fried, quite literally, and he is not a threat anymore. he's in jail. in a real fight, you are correct. but this is just torture. and it's sick. no one is talking about a fair fight here. it kind of changes the rules a bit. in a fair fight, everything is fair. you give back what you are given. when you back an unarmed man into a corner, surround him with angry, hate-filled men, and then throw scalding water on him, to the point where... holy shit. did you even read the link? did mark? it wasn't just boiling water. it was BOILING OIL. he had to have an operation and is scarred for the rest of his life, which he will spend being gangraped and constantly harassed. isn't that enough? for fuck's sake, remember you're a human being, and so is he.

Comment by Nancy on In The News: Gordon Brown, Boiled Islamofanatic, and Shambo The Bull

Mon, 30 Jul 2007 14:59:40 EDT

Considering how many times I've damned Bush & Cheney on this website, & wished someone would gun them down, I wouldn't be surprised if I were. MY point is, there comes a point when you have to stop being sympathetic to or expecting 'human' responses from those who have none. These individuals are just as psychopathic as the ones in the White House - only they don't kill on the scale Bush & Cheney do by proxy. Anyone capable of carrying out the kind of conscienceless mayhem of a serial killer, child molester, or terrorist (or BushCo for that matter) is NOT operating on human mores, & has no capacity for it, either. In any event, comes a time when however noble your goals or impulses, if you don't fight fire with fire, you're gonna get fried to a crisp. So...you end up a noble crisp, but just as dead. Sorta makes the nobility aspect kind of pointless & futile. In short, you don't deal with a komodo dragon as if it were a puppy dog. It ain't, it won't become one, & most important, it doesn't WANT to be one, either.

Comment by zingzing on In The News: Gordon Brown, Boiled Islamofanatic, and Shambo The Bull

Mon, 30 Jul 2007 14:22:43 EDT

well, it's just too bad you decided to apply it first to a muslim. and my point wasn't that you are a racist. notice it's not you saying those things. it's that your words can justify hate-fueled torture and killing. you're playing god, nancy, and it's a very ugly thing to watch. if you apply it to everybody, you apply it to everybody, and you can expect no better for yourself. if it's only violent criminals, well, just look at all those who were put on death row and then exonnerated. you may just kill an innocent person. you may just be tortured and killed yourself one day.

Comment by Nancy on In The News: Gordon Brown, Boiled Islamofanatic, and Shambo The Bull

Mon, 30 Jul 2007 14:13:20 EDT

Actually, the parties I had in mind were a couple of white US-born serial killers, not Brit muslims.

Comment by Nancy on In The News: Gordon Brown, Boiled Islamofanatic, and Shambo The Bull

Mon, 30 Jul 2007 14:12:16 EDT

Zing, I apply it to white christians as well. Anybody & everybody.

Comment by zingzing on In The News: Gordon Brown, Boiled Islamofanatic, and Shambo The Bull

Mon, 30 Jul 2007 14:04:40 EDT

bubba: "well, looky he'ah, cletus, we gots ourselves a reah live negrah!" cletus: "well, whut's he doin' he'ah, bubba?" bubba: "he done violatedud that law whut says ya cain't 'tend on murd'rin' no white folks." cletus [to "negrah"]: "you heared whut miss judge nancy says 'bout such thangs, didn't ya, negrah?" bubba: "miss judge nancy says [in nancy's voice] "'You violate the law seriously enough to go to prison, you should forfeit your rights. All of them.'" cletus: "dat's most certunlay raight, bubba. now whut should we do wit dis he'ah negrah?" bubba: "well, cletus, ah don't raightly know. maybe we should just do whutever we feel likes." cletus: "whut's that word? 'creative?' yup. negrah, we's about to get 'creative' on you." bubba: "yup." cletus: "yup." bubba: "yup." cletus: "yup." bubba: "we's gunna 'metes out actual justice,' as miss nancy like to say." cletus: "oh, ah like "metesin.' gives me the willies what whenever ah do. and how." bubba and cletus [both giving a satisfied sigh]: "'metesin...'"

Comment by zingzing on In The News: Gordon Brown, Boiled Islamofanatic, and Shambo The Bull

Mon, 30 Jul 2007 13:50:13 EDT

nancy: "when you're talking about vicious CHRISTIANS, their very predilictions have rendered them beyond being regarded as human & having the same rights & privileges as everyone else, & their crimes have rendered them null & void as far as being entitled to protections - from anybody." i switched a word. so, you see. you. no. better.

Comment by zingzing on In The News: Gordon Brown, Boiled Islamofanatic, and Shambo The Bull

Mon, 30 Jul 2007 13:45:10 EDT

rj, mem--you two are reveling in the torture of another individual, and you are licking your chops at the possibility of his violent death. you're no better than he is, and you don't have the excuse of being brainwashed by your religion. you're just naturally that way. so, you deserve whatever he does. i wish all the haters in the world could figure out just who it is that hates them back. and then they could just go after each other and leave us sane people alone.

Comment by Nancy on In The News: Gordon Brown, Boiled Islamofanatic, and Shambo The Bull

Mon, 30 Jul 2007 13:41:47 EDT

Just who are you addressing, Dave?

Comment by Dave Nalle on In The News: Gordon Brown, Boiled Islamofanatic, and Shambo The Bull

Mon, 30 Jul 2007 13:41:01 EDT

Do you never know when to shut up? Your ignorance seems to be permanently on parade. One of the cornerstones of modern conservatism is a fundamental opposition to interventionist foreign policy and wars in general. This whole interventionist/nationbuilding impulse is anything but conservative. Dave

Comment by Nancy on In The News: Gordon Brown, Boiled Islamofanatic, and Shambo The Bull

Mon, 30 Jul 2007 13:40:16 EDT

Having read both sides of the debate, I'll have to side with Ruvy, MEM, & RJ on this one: when you're talking about vicious criminals, whether terrorists or child molesters or rapists or serial murderers, their very predilictions have rendered them beyond being regarded as human & having the same rights & privileges as everyone else, & their crimes have rendered them null & void as far as being entitled to protections - from anybody. The law throughout most of the Western countries is barbarically soft & wimpish on criminals who have committed violent acts, & seldom metes out actual justice. Most of them receive what is virtually a slap on the wrist, & then are remanded to so-called prisons where they receive far better food, lodging, exercise, tutoring, medical treatment, & various other perks, than those citizens who live peacefully & obey the laws. The gross unfairness & injustice of this is obvious. IMO, prison should be synonymous with punishment - NOT so-called rehabilitation or coddling. As for prisoners rights, IMO there is no such thing. You violate the law seriously enough to go to prison, you should forfeit your rights. All of them. I just can't get very concerned or upset about someone trying to inflict a little well-earned pain on some skank terrorist, whatever his color or creed.