Whoa! That was...something.

And I'd like to thank you for making me think of you in your boxer shorts so early this morning.

I can't decide which I need more: Icky Thump or a cold shower.

Geez Louise Sir Mark - this was fantastic.

Shocking it what it was. But fantastic.

Shouldn't this be tagged "Satire" or "Fantasy" rather than "Review"?

boring.

aw i loved this! Sir Saleski, more of these sorts of excursions, i think.

Christopher, i think this does everythin a review should do. for one thing, it's a joy to read and i imagine it would be so even if one cared nowt for the record in question. for another, it has all the information a man might need - what the record sounds like, incredibly detailed "this sounds like this..." sort of bit, mention of key tracks including cover version and source thereof... everything, right here.

satire? nope.

duke has it about right.

Not quite Lester Bangs, but definitely better than Chatelaine.

Not quite Lester Bangs....nobody is that good!

Of course, it fails to get over the point that the trite and entirely unoriginal TWS suck massively.

All together now "I've got a doorbell and I'm gonna ring it". Fuck me, I'd rather listen to Brotherhood of Man. And I'd rather de-nut myself with a rusty knife than do that!

I'm quite confident that Lester wouldn't have been into TWS either!

"Oh well, the British always did have a tendency to be a bit backward..."

-Lester Bangs

Christopher - first, my apologies - I only now caught your reply over on Triniman's recent White Stripes review, in which you said: "Skeeter, whilst I agree that there are a lot of highly generic bands around that lack any distinctive qualities, there is still a lot of great music out there of all types, ugly or beautiful. For me, TWS are in the former camp..."

Can you clarify this for me... are you saying that for you, TWS are a band that makes ugly music, or a "great" band that makes ugly music, or a band that makes "great" ugly music? The grammatical nuance is hard for me to place it exactly.

Would Lester have liked the White Stripes? Hmm... historical (or hysterical) rewriting in the making - I'd say yes he would. He liked the Guess Who, he liked Metal Machine Music, and he took matters into his own hands when he started a band. He would've liked them becuse his sense of humour was right in tune with the lo-fi DIY Stripes' ethic.

One thing's fer shure - he wouldn't have offered to denut himself with a rusty knife - unless it somehow allowed him to one-up Lou Reed.

Mark, even the great ones get it wrong sometimes!

Skeeter, I meant that TWS are a highly generic alt rock band, kinda doing it by numbers but actually lacking any genuine alternativity.

As I said to Mark, even the great ones get it wrong, although having a deeply sardonic sense of humour is possibly the only level on which to appreciate TWS...

i can easily see (or hear) why somebody would not like the White Stripes....but how they can be labeled 'generic' is beyond me.

since they're generic, name all of the other bands out there currently who sound like them.

There are loads of so-called alternative bands out there that dress up like rebels whilst sucking at the music industry teat. Their expensively recorded approximations of the low-fi genre make me want to puke. They are as rebellious as Green Day are punk.

you didn't answer my question. who else sounds like the White Stripes?

I can't really answer your question any more specifically, Mark. I hear their music and find myself thinking "every single idea they have is ripped off from other bands" and my attention wanders off. You're far more of a music wonk than I am so you ought to be able to answer your own question better than I.

The whole of the rock genre is suffering from the tendency to conformity and a profound lack of new ideas and creativity. That it has spread so deeply as to have reached low-fi and blues is simply depressing.

waitaminnit...Bull Moose in Portland, eh?

i checked, there ain't no stains in the corner

fantasyland indeed!

harumph

be that as it may, TWS are slightly amusing in small doses, to me...i just don't get all the fuss

to each their own, i guess

however, yer gonzo has tix to TooL in Portland for tomorrow's show

i just love the look on the kiddies faces when a 45 year old man outlasts them in the heart of the Pit

an example...

Excelsior?

I hear their music and find myself thinking "every single idea they have is ripped off from other bands" and my attention wanders off.

and you're still a big hip-hop fan?

and you can say that with a straight face?

on the aside of hip hop

this cover is Fun from the Gourds

Excelsior?

Ripped off... not really - I'll go you one further - they make up stuff out of musical junk lying around - bits and pieces.. discards.... crap... thin air. It's like going to the junk yard and assembing enough pieces to build a pretty weird looking but well running car - built for two, natch, complete with noisy as hell muffler. I find myself constantly thinking, "Darn! Why didn't I think of that chord sequence - it's sooooo simple to the point of being simple minded!" Except the real simpleton is the guy who didn't find it before Jack White.

I know you don't like them, Christopher, but the more I lissen to 'em the better they sound. Well - who knows - maybe they're like Mcdonall's burgers - too much of them is bad for ya. On the other hand, they might prevent scurvy or something, if you take my meaning.

As for rock n roll as rebellion - it's all about personal rebellions now - the rock machine as a "movement" has been over for a long time....

Mark, Hip-Hop is still creating new ideas, albeit at a lesser rate, just as it has since it started. As such, it has long since out-distanced rock which, despite having life-saving cardiac stimulation in the shape of the punk movement, by and large petered out in the 1990s and has been mostly treading water ever since.

You clearly have some kind of bias or prejudice against hip-hop, possibly because you appear to think of it all as in some way uncreative. This is an attitude I find deeply puzzling. As a jazz fan, I would have thought that many of the startlingly new musical ideas produced in the best rap music would thrill you as much as the best of Coltrane or Monk, to name but two...

Skeeter, you trip yourself up with your own metaphor. TWS do indeed pick up cast offs, which by definition must have been created by others. To carry on with your junk yard angle, yes, of course any vehicle built that way may function well, but it can no more be original than anything else built from the creative work of others.

If you perceive music in such a way that you are thinking about chord sequences rather than passion or ideas, then we are clearly having very different experiences.

Finally, I didn't really say anything about rock as rebellion, just that it has long since petered out as a creative force. That TWS vest themselves in these tattered rags and people buy their vacuous posturing is profoundly depressing.

no, i brought up hip hop only because i knew you were a big fan...and that hip hop has been equally, if not more so, guilty of stealing from others.

sure, there's innovation there. i'm not denying it. anybody who thinks there isn't needs to take in a little history, maybe watch the movie Scratch for starters.

and no...i don't think about music in purely musical terms. in fact, almost never.

That TWS vest themselves in these tattered rags and people buy their vacuous posturing is profoundly depressing.

this posturing is purely a figment of your own imagination. if you read any interviews with White, you'll find a pretty genuine and subdued individual who just happens to be interested in a bunch of different musics. jc has it right on that one too.

still, you're free to hate them...and to go on making these statements as well.

sorta like mch in everything thread on bc.

Mark, you're letting your love for TWS blind you - and you're mixing up comments addressed to Skeeter with my remarks to you.

I don't hate TWS, I just said I think they're over-rated. It really doesn't make any difference if White is genuine or not, it's entirely possible to be genuinely derivative and to my taste the music is still somewhat cliched.

I hope you aren't thinking I disliked your actual writing, for a fine creative thing it is, as the Duke so finely noted in #6 above. Indeed, it far outdistances the ability of your subject matter, both in rhythm and entertainment!

I've made the case for my point of view, patiently and, I'd like to think, well articulated. You're entirely free to disagree with me of course, but I'd have hoped for a more spirited and principled defence of this group you love than to make such a cheap accusation as you ended your last remark with.

Truly love is blind and there's clearly nothing worse than a fanboy whose love is put to the test and found wanting. As we're now left with nothing but cheap shots rather than passionate discourse, I'll close by observing that your bile is more typical of those loons who squabble over which American Idol contestant is the best than a true music fan, which I know you to be. Shame.

It's nigh on 2am here in Spain and I must to bed, so the last word can safely be yours...

Whilst you guys debate the merits of the White Stripes, I'm still stuck on this whole Meg White fantasy of Saleski's...

I think Skeeter hit it on the head with his comparison to Lester Bangs. Well, Maybe not quite Bangs, cause nobody will ever touch his genius.

I dunno...Robot A. Hull maybe?

I can hear the youngsters scratching their heads and muttering "WhoTF?" now.

-Glen

Oh, and I almost forgot to mention...

This was one of the more original and entertaining pieces of "rock criticism" I've read in awhile. It actually kinda did take me back to the golden era of Creem Magazine (hence the Bangs and Hull mentions).

Well done, Sir Mark.

-Glen

So says Rose,
"I don't hate TWS"

who earlier says,
"Of course, it fails to get over the point that the trite and entirely unoriginal TWS suck massively.

All together now "I've got a doorbell and I'm gonna ring it". Fuck me, I'd rather listen to Brotherhood of Man. And I'd rather de-nut myself with a rusty knife than do that!"

I dunno, man, that reads like you were chugging down a few pints of hatorade to me. I could be wrong, though ;&)

"If you perceive music in such a way that you are thinking about chord sequences rather than passion or ideas, then we are clearly having very different experiences."

Christopher - you might be the first person ever to suggest my limited knowledge of music theory is a major factor in my experience of music. I think we look for very similar qualities as relates to passion, & ideas. I think it likely that Jack White does too. But he actually gets to play and record for a living, and knows that there's a certain amount of posturing and showmanship that goes into a concert. And ritual - "How's everybody doing in _________ tonight?" is ritual, but also simply common courtesy. Now, had he come out and said, "WE ARE HERE TO RAAAWK YOU! YEAYAH!" I would say that also is a type of ritual, but self-congratulatory & pompous and dated to somewhere in the early 70s pre-punk era. He didn't resort to that, nor do I think he does that musically either.

And yes, he often uses previously invented parts, but some original and all are assembled in what I think are original ways. Your fave song (lol)appears to be "My Doorbell," which I would suggest is not one of their best tunes, but, whatever - that simple, stomping tune is ... piano & drums. Jerry Lee Lewis had a similar lineup, but was playing a curious mixture of boogie, blues & country, and playing it with an exceptional virtuousity. There's none in this - it's a 3 chord pop song. and the "I'm thinkin about my doorbell" - has that vocal triplet in there - more kin to rap than rock.

Yes, I know, I'm getting all technical again here. So let me just finish up by saying when they opened the show with Blue Orchid the night I saw them, it was like they had reinvented rock and roll - for about three minutes, they were indeed the world's greatest rock and roll band, for as Keef himself said, "On any given night... any band can be the world's greatest rock and roll band...."

Buenas dias... errr... how do they say "Have a good day?" en Espanol?

Sk.

hatorade?!!! that's it, i'm stealing that!

christopher , you are so missing my point that it's not funny. this is only the second cd of theirs that i own. i have often thought that the band was played up far too much not buy the media but by some fans, who have clearly never heard any garage rock from back in the 60's. makes sense i guess, since they're probably too young.

i can in fact engage in passionate discourse but when you toss around descriptions like cliched but with no reference point, it seems like everybody's time is wasted. again, who is it that they sound like?


and my last word was not cheap, but actually founded on the record: your record, not mine.

The problem here is that Christopher Rose has an adamant opinion against the White Stripes, but absolutely no knowledge or understanding at all. He has not ever had the least little bit of any actual argument.

Right here is pretty much the capsule version of all the foolishness he's said about this band for some years now, I can't really answer your question any more specifically, Mark. I hear their music and find myself thinking "every single idea they have is ripped off from other bands" and my attention wanders off.

Why, everything thing they do is a ripoff. He's said this for years, and yet has never, ever been able to bring even one good specific example that THIS White Stripes songs sounds like THAT band.

"Thinking" is really the wrong word for him to use here, as he's not. He's decided that he hates this band and that he's going to insist that they suck. I have never, ever seen anything in his numerous comments against the band addressing any particular song.

Has he actually listened to Icky Thump? Exactly which band did they rip off the "Prickly Thorn But Nicely Worn"? I would definitely be interested in checking them out, along with whoever they supposedly ripped off for "Conquest."

Yet for some reason, he seems to think that his 100% uninformed and utterly unsupported statements simply that they suck and that they're a ripoff should somehow be taken as an equally valid opinion versus people who actually know the White Stripes' music. That's alright though. HIS TIME'S COMING.

Brother Saleski, I applaud your good taste and more than share your enthusiasm here. However, I may have to fight you for Miss Meg's honor. Perhaps a duel. Pistols at dawn?

One particular thing to look for here: Note the huge leap in Jack's fancy guitar playing. Their earlier records had lots of fine, memorable guitar lines - but they were mostly technically very simple. Take Chuck Berry as a broad point of comparison. "Hello Operator" is GREAT, but wouldn't be that tough for any half decent garage band.

But Icky Thump is a quantum leap for Jack as a guitar player. There are very few songs in their earlier catalog that could begin to stand up to, say, the "Catch Hell Blues" for virtuoso guitar playing. Yet these fancy twists and turns are still as catchy and carefully tied to the actual songs as ever.

"The whole of the rock genre is suffering from the tendency to conformity and a profound lack of new ideas and creativity.

I can agree to a point but I have to disagree because Tomahawk's latest release is far from conformity and heavy on the new ideas & creativity. But one could argue that it is rock... I believe it is.

"i just love the look on the kiddies faces when a 45 year old man outlasts them in the heart of the Pit.."

Most those kiddies wouldn't know what a real pit is/was. Especially at a TooL show.

As for the The White Stripes...Well, I have to say that besides some catchiness, they don't hold my attention. I think Jack is average on the axe & Meg reminds me of when I was 11, just rounding my first year of drumming... Sorry Mark.

Crikey, a mob is forming! Responding one at a time:-

Pico: Disliking a group's music is not the same as hate, so you are indeed wrong. Must agree with Mark that hatorade is a fine new word though. A tip of the hat if you coined it.

Skeeter: "How's everybody doing in ______?" is as much common courtesy as that other American cliche "Have a nice day". I didn't really understand your Jerry Lee Lewis bit but whatever, let me remind you his fine work is now fifty or more years old.

Mark: Let's just agree to disagree on this, for you've nothing more to say and I'ver said all I can.

Al: I hadn't realised that your self-appointed role as leader of the White Stripes Nation came with mind-reading powers! Let's just say that your wise and benign rule is as loved as your sense of time is dilated.

I know as much of TWS music as I care to, in fact, thanks to the mountain of mp3s you once sent me, actually more. There's just so much more good music to listen to in the world that TWS slide down the priority list.

It's a bit like when choosing whose articles to read, your peculiar blend of pompous know-it-all attitude orbiting your own sure sense of knowing the difference between good music and bad won't make it to the top of the pile either.

The fact that the lot of you can't make a decent case, Skeeter's junkyard effort partially excepted, in defence of this group without resorting to low-rent personal commentary, speaks volumes.

I hope when Eurocritics eventually launches, which will nigh on certainly be before the end of this year, the lot of you will pop on over and discover what music not rooted in the middle of the 20th century sounds like.

There'll also be an opportunity on another site EC will be launching for you all to show and tell where your musical heart's devotion lies. It will all be much fun, which this conversation could also have been, if anyone of you could have actually made a half decent case for this band which clearly matters more to you than the idea of a musical conversation...

Brian: you posted your comment whilst I was drafting mine. I shall make a mental note to look out for Tomahawk, a band I've not yet heard. I hope they are indeed as inventive as you claim, whilst noting that one swallow doesn't make a summer, nor invalidate the generality of my point.

Thanks for at least partially getting my point about TWS. Here's a suit of armour for you, you may need it!

Rose responds,
Disliking a group's music is not the same as hate, so you are indeed wrong.

I didn't think we'd be down to arguing semantics, but here you go....
Synonyms for 'dislike', per Roget's

It's ok to admit you hate 'em. Really. Although at this point you might merely be stating what is obvious to everyone.

I thank you for the hat tip, but I can't take credit. "Hatorade" is not my invention. However, please feel free to use the word in all your future critiques of the Whites.

p.s.--for the record, my view of TWS is much closer to Brian's than Mark's, but admittedly, I haven't heard them enough times to have a fully-formed opinion one way or the other. I'm just enjoying the banter here, is all. I hope you are, too :&)

Pico, it appears your grasp of English is as "irregular" as your taste in music! :-)

Just because a thesaurus lists a bunch of similar words doesn't mean they are all interchangeable or equal. I don't hate TWS or I'd have said so, they're really not worth that level of passion. Perhaps your "obvious" equates to a lack of nuance! LOL

Rest assured that I use words with loving care and you don't need to extrapolate further meaning. In closing I'll simply recap my view that TWS are over-rated and only of slight passing interest. I'm glad to learn that you essentially agree with me!

hey, hey... me and the big guppy agree on something. chris, definitely check out tomahawk. they were one of mike patton's more "straight" efforts, but this time they are rather out there--taking inspiration from native american music, which ought to be pretty interesting in the hard rock/metal context. i haven't heard this one yet, but anything mike patton (except that god-awful peeping tom shit) is gold. and they also have the drummer from helmet (or is it jesus lizard... maybe that's the guitarist), if i am not mistaken. and used to be they had the bassist from the melvins, but i don't think he's involved anymore.

that said, the melvins are one of the most entertaining and creative of all metal groups, although you can't really define them as metal anymore... or ever really... maybe you could. dunno.

Pico, it appears your grasp of English is as "irregular" as your taste in music! :-)

You are probably correct on the first count, and definitely correct on the second one. See? Admitting the obvious is not so hard :&)

they're really not worth that level of passion

I am judging your level of passion by all the long, frequent and carefully written comments you've bothered to make with regards to TWS. I wouldn't devote that much energy toward anyone I merely disliked (your words), but that's just me.

I'm glad to learn that you essentially agree with me!

There's perhaps a nuance lacking here, too. I'm no fanboy, but I'm not prepared to denut myself with a rusty knife over them, either. That's where you and I respectfully part ways. ;&)

yaaaAAAAaaaaaaaaaay !, a Helmet reference!

on TWS, as i said, i've listened, some tracks are ok..some don't move me at all

i can Appreciate what they are trying to do, more power to them...

but i'm not one for pop songs or "bubble gum"

BTW - "hatorade" is a bit of gamer jargon, been around for years...just an FYI

your mileage may vary

Excelsior?

Pico, perhaps you're just not used to having an online conversation? I consider the way people who are obviously somewhat knowledgeable about music find so mundane a group so special interesting and I was trying to get to the heart of that. As for the de-nutting, what can I say? I just have a taste for the flamboyant or romantic gesture!

and there you go again christopher..."mundane", add it to the list with "generic".

now go ahead and tell us why. again, you're certainly free to not like them. i don't even care about that. i do care about a characterization that makes no sense. i mean, Creed? sure, mundane. they sounded like tons of other bands. but the White Stripes?

i do believe that chris, much like myself with Led Zepp, has decided to hate--without any real reason--a band that isn't really all that awful. they aren't offensively bad (like creed), but now and again, it's just fun to hate on a band that other people like. it's like picking out a target or bullying.

i mean, really. chris, you know there are plenty of other groups out there that deserve you ire much more. the white stripes at least try to be interesting. they aren't making pre-packaged poop. and it's not like you are against them on a deep philosophical level. they just rub you the wrong way, and seeing as how others think they are the greatest thing on earth (which they are not), you are just picking them out as a target for ridicule.

am i right?

i know i am.

but go ahead. arguing about music is so much better than arguing about politics.

that said, led zepplin sucks big mythical balls. they stole all their best songs from poor black people.

zing... do we have to replay the White Stripes coversation over Zeppelin now?

Did they steal black songwriters' work and claim it as their own for monetary gain - yes.

Did they steal the blues mythos from black bluesmen - yes indeed. There were even rumours they sold their soul to the debbil hisself, ol' Beelzebubba - just like Robert Johnson.

But did they steal their best songs from poor black people? Depends - Willie Dixon was a professional songwriter & session man, so I don't know how poor he was - next to a white equivalent or an average white person, perhaps - I honestly don't know how much he made. Furthermore, many of Zeppelin's best songs aren't based on the blues genre at all - and again, I guess it depends on what songs you think are the best.

I appreciate your comment about picking a band that's not really that bad but you love to hate - for Chistopher it's the White Stripes, for you it's Zep, for me, it's Rush - and even there I like them way more than I did 20 years ago - their covers EP showed they have a sense of humour. As for the Stripes - I like 'em OK, but there's better. I guess, as in opposition to Christopher, I'm involved in this conversation because I wonder why any person with otherwise decent taste would dislike them so much. Your answer/observation, zing, is so far the best.

And I'll second that - music is way more fun to discuss than politics. Let's just hope Jack White never runs for President.

Sk.

oh, i know dixon wasn't "poor." and really, i don't know what their best songs as, as i don't fucking give 2 fucks about ledd zepplin. but i know that "poor black people" suggests ledd zepp were opportunistic racist thieves. (which of course, they were not--at least they weren't racists.) it's all part of the hatin'.

oh and i hate rush as well.

Oh, good. MCHristopher has chimed in on this post. He certainly does know overrated. Just consider the worth he imbues his opinion about TWS, and his obsessive compulsion to make it known on each and every post.

"Hip-Hop is still creating new ideas"

Does that mean they have worked their way up to sampling music from the '90s? Why don't you follow the example of Hip-Hop and get some new ideas of your own before we institute the MCHristopher Exemption in the Music section?

I certainly do know over-rated El Bitcho. The last comment reeked of it. Fortunately, you don't get to institute anything, except tedium and cheap insults, which are clearly two of your strong suits. Now, if you have anything constructive to say about life, music or anything at all, let's hear it...

damn! bicho, i dunno if you're just bashing hip-hop cuz you want to bash chris, but there's still quite a bit of vitality and creativity in hip-hop. it's been a slow year... none-too-many classics have come out so far. but hip-hop moves at lightening speeds compared to other forms of music, and if it hits a slow patch now and again, that doesn't mean anything.

sampling is an artform (well, the way public enemy does it, not the way puff daddy does it) and takes just as much skill as a guitar, and a whole lot of creativity to make it vital.

"but hip-hop moves at lightening speeds compared to other forms of music>>"


LOL...Yeah from beep to boop. Ofcourse,It has to come up with new stuff fast because Hip-Hop is two dimensional. I give credit to scratching but sampling isn't even close to what you can do with a guitar. I guess when people think Jack White is great on the axe, you can only expect those type of statements.He may not play Lead but Michael Manring is disgusting with 3 basses. Yes, he has songs that incorporates him playing 3 basses.Do that with sampling...Ha!! As for Public Enemy(NOT HIP-HOP), they even claimed that Anthrax pushed the envelope for them, and, I'm sorry to say but that metal band made "Bring the Noise" sound 110% better than the original.

I can't really fathom from this fourth-rate wet dream whether you like the record or not, so let me just say that I do. "Little Cream Soda," "Rag and Bone," and "Cause and Effect" are great sonic stompers in the Whites tradition.

You're not alone, though, in your sad-eyed lust for Meg. How do you deal with a lust that is destined to go permanently unsatiated? Be like the squirrel, dude, be like the squirrel.

you're mistaken if you think that it's me in the dream. it's not. i mean, meg is sorta cute but....honestly, i was just sittin' around and the idea came to me, "hey, what if there was this guy who..."

and i just went with it.

so sorry al, no dual. c'mon, you know i'm a squishly liberal who owns no guns. ;-)

You're mistaken if you think that it's me who thought it was you in the dream. It's not. I was just sittin' around and the idea came to me, "Hey, what if there was this guy who thought that Mark Saleski's horny ramble about Meg White was really written by Mark Saleski."

ok, ok...i admit it....i'm really Jack White. i can't play the guitar for shit but hot chicks dig me.

Saying Jack White "can't play the guitar for shit" is a pitiful defense of people who supposedly can. I'd really hate to listen to the opposite of Jack White.

yea, you got that right.

guppy: "I give credit to scratching but sampling isn't even close to what you can do with a guitar."

ha! oh my. by the very definition of what sampling is, it is capable of so much more than a guitar every could be. what is sampling? you can reproduce and manipulate ANY sound on the planet, including ANY sound that the guitar can make. in the right hands, sampling is nearly limitless.

"Yes, he has songs that incorporates him playing 3 basses.Do that with sampling...Ha!!"

um, ok. easily done. what are you trying to say?

"As for Public Enemy(NOT HIP-HOP)..."

yes they are... i don't understand. what are they if not hip-hop?

"they even claimed that Anthrax pushed the envelope for them..."

they were just being nice really.

"and, I'm sorry to say but that metal band made "Bring the Noise" sound 110% better than the original."

not really. that's your opinion, so you can have it, but the original is a bit better i think. antrax cheesed it up a bit. and "bring the noise," at least sonically, isn't one of their more adventerous songs.

Considering no one had rated my comment until you spoke up, MCHristopher, it couldn't have been overrated. It must be your grasp of English, that's causing the disconnect.

Zing, you were correct with the former. I have got nothing against hip-hop, but if it's going to be used as a line of defense, it would be good to see points actually articulated. Unfortunately those who spend a lot of time in the Politics section think typing a lot equates to having said something.

El Bitcho, you seem to be a little comprehension challenged at the moment, in addition to being childishly rude. Does the new cultural orthodoxy you seem to be trying to introduce prevent people from having differing opinions or do you just have something large and painful stuck up your arse?

childishly rude? ....and you refer to bicho as "bitcho"?

keep digging.

Pay attention, Mark, he started it... Apparently TWS make people blind!

he started it...what the hell, is this grade school or something? and you don't have the maturity to just leave it alone?

look, most people in this thread would agree that you started this whole mess but dumping the same comments about the White Stripes that you always do.

I never back down from a direct challenge Mark, especially when I don't consider I've done anything wrong.

I'm genuinely puzzled as to how a bunch of people with tolerably decent musical taste find this band so interesting and so far the fans seem better able to cast insults than have a decent conversation about it.

You fans keep writing about the band and rarely have anything insightful or even interesting to say, your fevered work above excepted; apparently fanboys can't tolerate any dissenting views any more than trite pop fans can. I thought you guys liked to talk but now it seems you only want to talk as long as you all agree with each other. Out damned spot!

and again we go around the circle:

you are the one who said that this band is generic, that they are mundane.

so please, back that up? we keep asking you, you keep ignoring the request. i WANT to have the conversation and all you provide are empty adjectives.

you seem to keep missing the point that most people don't really care if you like the band or not. no matter how many times i say that, you brin g the 'fanboy' thing, which is complete crap.

Mark, that's what is so amusing. He is completely unaware that his comments in this thread actually apply more to himself than the person he's referring to.

Mark, how exactly does one back up an opinion? I listen to TWS, my attention wanders, ergo I conclude they're dull. That's not using empty adjectives, that's telling you how they make me feel. Music is about passion, ideas and excitement, not scholarly reference points.

I really don't care if "most people" don't care how TWS make me feel. The fanboy thing seems entirely appropriate to me as nobody, your thing above and a couple of Skeeter's comments excepted, has written anything that really conveyed any sense of wonder or joy about their music.

El B, you know fuck all meaningful about me so aren't really in a position to make that kind of observation...

All I or anyone else has to do is read this thread.

Yeah, right, you can divine everything there is to know about somebody just by reading a few comments. That's about as profound a thing as I've heard - in the last ten seconds!

I'll engage with the hate-haters.

Preface: I've only heard "Rag and Bone" and the title track from the new album, and I probably won't search out the whole thing. My remarks concern Elephant, Satan, and White Blood Cells, all of which I've spun repeatedly. I also saw them live last month and another time in 02 or 3.

Meg's guileless beatbeatbeat/break/repeat drumming is monotonous. She's just not very skilled, technically, and hasn't seemed to improve. Listen to, say, "The Hardest Button," which calls out for the drummer to drive it, and she can't. She just plays a straight beat and then splashy cymbals over the same beat. And on the breaks, she doesn't even play fills.
Not everyone has to be Max Roach, but her technical limits really limit what the band can do, and over the long haul makes their albums boring, to me.

As for Jack, he's a clever songwriter and a weird, intriguing media figure. I like the funny way he subverts blues and rock lyrics, although he's no great melodicist as a composer. As a matter of personal taste, I think his singing is very yelpy and unsuited to the blues. I am quite fond of his hats.

how does one back up on opinion? oftentimes that's what reviewing is all about.

if i stated in a review that a band was generic and/or mundane, i would provide examples. it's as simple as that.

a straight opinion, such as you find somebody boring, doesn't necessarily need to be backed up. on the other hand, things like 'mundane' and 'generic' are closer to assertions.

honestly though, i no longer care.

Obviously I lack the fine discernment of the greater Saleski but personally I can't see a whole heap of difference between finding something boring, mundane or generic, which all sound like opinions to me.

I've found that when people truly don't care, they would actually shut up, so I take it that will be your last comment on the matter? I'm off to watch "The Bill" (that's English for police by the way) for an hour, so you've plenty of time to come up with another answer, possibly less glib...

I think we're looking at two differing ways of offering an opinion or review, which could be neatly labelled Objective and Subjective.

A Subjective opinion could be described as based on feeling and emotions. To say something is boring is simply to say, "This (thing) no longer personally gives me any pleasure (if it ever did at all)." And no one can argue that. But an Objective opinion needs to have some proof that can be observed, tested, compared, contrasted, or discussed. For example, this is how I see the late great Duke Ellington from each of my subjective and objective points of views. Subjectively, I don't care for his music - it doesn't move me, it gives me no pleasure as it were. But objectively, I know I haven't listened to a great deal of his vast quantity of recordings, but I have at least an understanding and appreciation for his accomplishments in the field of jazz, so when I hear his stuff, I can at least tell the difference between his interpretation of a piece of music and let's say John Coltrane's take on the same piece. And if someone came up to me and said Ellington made no contributions to the world of music I could probably point out why I thought that statement was wrong. And I would hope that a professional jazz critic (however you would define him or her to be) would be able to take that one or two steps further.

Both points of view are acceptable, and within an indiviual they overlap (for example, Leslie B has recently mentioned Meg's lack of technical skill, an objective point, and how subjectively it makes the albums boring for her over the long run), but no discussions between people arguing from opposite points of view will have difficulty making the case to each other.

I really don't think anybody on bc needs me to point out this dichotomy in critiquing, but I think Mr. Rose has established beyond a doubt that subjectively, TWS give him no pleasure, whereas others here (including myself) get varying degrees of pleasure from their music. Those points are given - nothing to discuss there. But I'm still curious as to people's objective take on TWS, because evidently so far nothing anyone has said has changed anyone else's mind.

Greatgawda'mighty, that was talky and boring - and gave me no pleasure. But back to the discussion at hand...

i don't know what happened to y'all here, swerving to the left and right... i'm still stuck on Meg.