In reading this, I find I agree with what your saying about how fundamentalist Christians do make it to easy, thats why Catholics are right and everyone else is wrong.

Guy,

Catholics, huh? Are we taking any bets? Who gets the brass ring, and who rots in hell? If the Rapture occurs, Catholics and everyone else who has not been whisked away to heaven lose by default.

I'd just like to get into some rich Raptarian's will so I could use their stuff before the heat starts singeing my toes.

Baritone

How bout the tens of millions killed by atheist leaders in the 20th century? The greatest genocides numerically speaking have been carried out by declared atheists and people very far removed from any church.

Don't let little things like facts get in the way of a good rant though.

After reading your article, I am really interested in reading this book to gain an understanding on how atheists view us.

So yeah, I am a Christian but am I part of the crazy right-wing zealots agenda? By no means.

While society may have their pre-conceived notions about Christianity, it really ruins it for the rest of us who are trying to just live life according to the Bible and God's teachings.

At the end of the day, we are going to have to answer for what we do. I mean, even in the other teachings, bad karma will happen depending on how you treat others.

I agree, lots of wars and conflicts have been started "in the name of God" and that is something I cannot deny but man (humanity) himself is doing so much damage that blaming God or not even believing in Him is going to occur more and more each day.

I believe God, through His son Jesus Christ, made salvation accessible to everyone, regardless of what you did in the past. That is what I consider grace and mercy. I accepted Christ when I was a child in the purest form of innocence. It wasnt until I was much older that I could fully comprehend my decision. A decision I don't regret one bit. If I die, my faith says that I will have to stand before God and answer for what I did in this life. In the end, my hope is to make it into eternity.

Now, obviously some sins will carry more than others and God talks about paying for sins even if you accept Christ. I mean, I can be a Christian and because of free will, still go out and commit a heinous crime. While I may find forgiveness with God, He is also very serious about justice and be accountable. I will still have to pay for what I did.

Look, I can go into several pages of detail in defending my faith but when its stripped down to its very core and essence, that prayer I said to accept Christ wasn't because I wanted to get in good with the folks up in heaven. He was done because I saw that while many skeptics say it didnt happen, I believe Jesus died on a cross on the place called Golgotha for me out of love. That is the motivation that keeps me going. His love for a wretch like me.

Am I fanatic rambling on in streets throwing a bible in your face? No. I think Christians nowadays need to quiet themselves more and display what it really means to be a follower of Christ, be it Catholic or Protestant, in actions of kindness and love.

It always comes down to Stalin and Hitler, Pol Pot and perhaps a few others, doesn't it? A few bad apples. . .

And I once again first counter that Hitler never renounced his faith. He developed a pretty high disregard for the church, the Vatican in particular, but he believed in his tiny little heart of hearts to be a christian and that Germany, The Fatherland, was truly god's chosen land and the aryan race his chosen people.

Stalin was certainly an atheist. But trumping that, he was a megalomaniac. I would not claim that all atheists are good people. But it was not Stalin's atheism which drove him to mass murder. It was paranoia. He saw virtually everyone as his enemy. He was probably right.

At any rate while communism preaches an atheistic view point, they simply replace God with the State. It still comes down to groveling before a myth, the myth of the idyllic state, Eden, if you will, here on earth.

As to Pol Pot, I haven't much to say. I presume, if he was a good communist, he was an atheist. But what did his regime do? It systematically annihilated virtually all of Cambodia's intelligencia, its professors and teachers, its doctors and lawyers. Pot's regime demanded unquestioned fealty. There was no room for reason, for thought, for questions. Pretty much like the inquisition, no?

Of course there is always the possibility that science and reason can be misused. Hence our fascination with "mad scientists" in film and fiction.

On the whole, however, throughout human history it has been the church in whatever form which has been at the core of most hate, death and destruction. It continues as I write.

Baritone

Jerry,

I presume you understand that I am one of those who in fact, doesn't believe in god. Nor do I believe in any after life. When we die, we're dead. That's all folks! There is no "maker" to meet in the "great beyond." There is no great beyond. No final judgement. To paraphrase a popular TV ad campaign, What happens on earth, stays on earth.

I understand that most people who profess to be christians, or jews or muslims for that matter, are not fervently involved with the radical movements which pretty much always exist somewhere on the outer edges. A serious problem, as I see it, though, is that many of these radical groups in all of the monotheistic faiths have made significant inroads into the mainstream of their respective traditions.

Among protestants people who once attended traditionally small congregational churches, many have left often in droves to join one of the mega-churches many of which have thousands on their membership roles. They offer better theatre and high drama. More to the point, what they're preaching is old time fire and brimstone - much more old than new testament.

Why are you a "wretch?" Do you consider yourself to be a basically "good" human being? Do you love your mother, respect your father, and on and on?

This god that you believe to be omnipotent and omniscient is neither. Assuming god exists (which I don't,) consider, if he is in fact omniscient - all knowing - then you have no free will. It is all pre-ordained. God knows everything you have done, and everything you will do. He knows you're going to be late for work twice next month. He knows that you are going to walk out of Mickey Ds without clearing your table in a few days. By extension, he knows where you will wind up (or down.) It's a done deal. If it's not a done deal, then god is not all knowing. Which is it?

I suggest that you should read Huberman's book. It's an easy read. Sometimes funny. It does provide food for thought. I won't suggest that it will turn you away from your god, but it might set you to thinking. Thinking is a good thing.

Baritone

the atheist leader argument is more than slightly bogus

keep in mind that those 'few bad apples' did very little killing...it's ordinary people - lots of them - who actually committed the genocides

it's their religious attitudes that need to be examined in relationship to their inhumanity not so much those of their leaders

That's a simple offhand dismissal for the deaths of tens of millions. That may be just a few bad apples but it comes from a pretty small barrel I'd say.

Religion is linked with history and the present with both good and bad influences. I'm of the opinion that much religion is more show than substance. People use religion as an excuse, but in absense of that they'll use race, culture, language, class, or any other convenient excuse to justify their own violent and oppressive actions.

What we need to explore is why there is a disparity in the way people view these crimes against humanity?

The genocides by leftist dictators barely ring a bell in most people's minds yet we are drummed with the detailed history of the evils of Hilter the crusades, and the inquisition constantly. Why is that?

Why do left-atheist misdeeds get glossed over with a simple, 'better luck next time' mentality where right-christian errors are beat into our heads as examples of their true natures at every opportunity?

I'm not entirely certain either way but I suspect your mad scientist reference was fairly close to the mark. Science has been corrupted. The infiltration by left leaning cadre into higher learning institutes and the dilution of the hard sciences in favor of new soft and social 'sciences' has had some influence on how the learned view history and the world. With 'science' on their side who dares oppose them?

Troll,

Of course, you are correct. I don't know that Hitler personally killed a single Jew, or anyone else for that matter except perhaps as a line soldier in WWI. I'm less certain regarding Stalin or Pol Pot. Nevertheless, neither of them personally slaughtered millions of people. They all had help. Lots of it. They all had functionaries and rabid, unquestioning followers who carried out the mass killings in a myriad of ways.

Think of the people who developed the Nazi gas chambers. It was done primarily for economic reasons. Bullets were expensive and actually shooting millions of people would have been logistically difficult. What was the mind set of those people? How did they rationalize their particular contributions?

It is all quite difficult to sort out. Many have tried with varying degrees of success. Could we good god fearing Americans come to such a pass? Given our treatment of Native Americans and our enslavement of millions of people for around 300 years, I'd say the answer is yes.

At least since the end of WWII, Americans have thought of themselves as being on a higher plain, being higher minded, more forward thinking than most of the rest of the world's people.

A lot of that went away with the spector of our involvement with torture and imprisoning people with no charges, no rights, no access to counsel, etc. If we were ever ahead of the game, we are now falling back.

While we are not beheading people on TV, we are not so moral, high and mighty as we believed ourselves to be. Americans suffer the same faults and frailties that others do.

Baritone

Doug,

The "bad apples" comment was meant as an understatement. I certainly don't take those deaths lightly.

Exactly how many "left-atheist" mis-deeds are there for our consideration? Keep in mind that "left" does not necessarily imply "atheist" nor vice versa.

While Stalin's purges never got the press that Hitler's holacaust, owing largely to the closed nature of the Soviet era, people who understand the magnitude of that horror hardly gloss over it.

European history, its connection with the church and its role in the crusades, the inquisition and other instances of mass murder are more a part of our heritage, like it or not.

Nevertheless, my concern is not whether any such events were considered right wing or left wing, but rather with their connections with a church or their having otherwise religious roots.

As to "mad scientists." I don't ascribe to your view that "science" has been infiltrated by "left leaning cadre." That may seem to be the case for right wing reactionaries, simply because science does not often conform to conservative christian agendas. True science and nature are dispassionate and apolitical. Radical christians believe scientists are "playing god." As most scientists are atheists, god rarely enters the equation.

Baritone

"True science and nature are dispassionate and apolitical."

Agreed. I never felt those forces in math, physics, biology, etc. It's those extra mandatory cultural awareness, gender studies, and diversity courses that seem to be pushing one worldview over all others, blurring the line between education and indoctrination.

I would like to see the Mythbusters on the Discovery channel do a show that their are no atheists in fox holes. Let's make the request to them. If enough us do we may find out. Give it a try.

sr,

Here is a quote relevant to your comment from Huberman's book. It is by one James Morrow, a science fiction writer and author of Godhead Trilogy:

"'There are no atheists in foxholes' isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes."

I'm not sure what the Mythbusters could do with atheists and foxholes. Maybe it could be handled better by the History Channel's Digging For The Truth. I'm sure Josh Bernstein could get to the bottom of any foxhole. Not sure about the bottoms of atheists, though.

Baritone

Doug,

Since I've been out of school for about 35 years, I'm not sure exactly how the "indoctrination" courses, as you describe them, are being presented. Perhaps some might fall under such a description. I can't say.

Keep in mind, though, that many children are routinely "indoctrinated" in the church almost from day one. One might almost consider it brainwashing except that the truly young kids don't really have anything in their brains to be "washed out." They first toddle into the sanctuary as a more or less clean slate, totally impressionable.

At least, when a student first arrives at college, he or she presumably already has some degree of exposure to the wider world, and has formed certain opinions and attitudes that the "indoctrinators" would be obliged to break through to reach most of their students with an alternative world view.

At any rate, don't you think it's appropriate for students to be exposed to alternative world views? Isn't that a part of the learning process?
Aren't the students enrolled in college to learn, and as importantly, to think?

Baritone

Baritone,

First off, thanks for responding my comments. Let's see, first off why am I wretch? Well, I am human. I fail and mess up daily, be it small or big, I often fall short. Does it mean I'm done for? No. To me, this means that my journey continues daily as I continue to grow and learn. I've learn that I am loved by God even with all the shortcomings I have, with all the wrong I have done. Do I consider myself a good person? I think I am but in all honestly, I still have alot of things I deal with. Be it a particular mentality or prejudice or whatever, I still have a lot of growing to do.

I mean, my faith means nothing unless its applied to my daily living. Just like anything, if you want to know about something, you study it and you learn right? A baby can't grow unless it being fed and nutured. Eventually you hope that kid grows up and starts learning on his own. The same can be said about anyone who follows a particular faith. We have a lot of babies in the church nowadays. Its until you start asking questions and find out more about your faith and why you even follow it in the first place.

As for the omnipotent/omniscient comment, I personally don't think God wants robots following him. He said he laid out a plan for our lives. Whether we want to follow that path is our choice. He knows my past and my future but He gives me the opportunity daily on what path to take. I look at him as a parent. He wants the best for me but he also brings conviction if I'm not doing right.

I agree, thinking and discussing is a good thing. I can trust what my pastor says but its also good to read and study and ask questions. Let me ask you this. Is the stigma that comes with being an athiest in America real bad especially with Christians you encounter? I don't think I have ever really gotten to converse or exchange with an actual atheist. I try to hear everyone out and see where people come from.

We may not have the same ideas regarding faith or whatever topic but definitely through discussion and just conversing, perhaps we just reason together. I don't think you have to believe in God to consider that a logical way of thinking. I'm gonna check this book out for sure. I will definitely check it at Borders or Barnes & Noble next time I'm out.

Jerry,

Consider this. As per Genesis: God created heaven and the earth - yadda, yadda, yadda. On the sixth day he created man. Man is imperfect. God's creation is imperfect, yet he, in effect judges us for those very imperfections.

I know this sounds smart assed, but also think about just what's in this for god? What possible reason would any all knowing, all powerful god have for creating any of this universe? How could a god who could create this vast universe get excited about or have even a passive interest in
the lives of humans? Does such a being, entity, spirit - whatever you want to call it need we lowly humans humbling ourselves before him? What manner of love is this?

Your description of your supposed "wretchedness" pretty much describes everybody. Why would a god populate a tiny little planet in this vast universe with 3 or 4 billion unworthy human wretches? To what end?

My mind sometimes literally shuts down when I try to make sense out of god, religion and faith. I truly believe that thought and reason trumps faith everytime.

To be honest, in my daily life I rarely make any reference to my being an atheist. Of course, it virtually never comes up in my business, and on that level it would be inappropriate. Some of my family knows where I stand. I think they just consider it with bemusement, or without understanding.

Since I have a home and family to support, it would likely not serve that purpose well were I to make a public issue of my lack of belief. Self serving? Yes. But aren't we all in our own way?
Further, it would be pointless for me to make an issue of it with friends and family. It could make get togethers very awkward. I don't lie about it, but neither do I bring it up in conversation. I do my prostelyzing here and on my blog. It's safer that way.

By the way, you can access Huberman's book at your public library for free.

Baritone

Jerry (#15) says:

I personally don't think God wants ....

Your god is inscrutable. You haven't the slightest idea what motivates the god you worship. It is absurd to attempt to 'psyche' him out. Trying to make sense out of the apparent contradictions and insoluble mysteries inherent in your worldview just leads to a patchwork, one with a probabilistic likelihood of correctness that would be a decimal point followed by many, MANY zeroes, then ... some more zeroes ... then a number.

On the other hand, if there is a god (or gods), then Baritone's comments (#16) are equally inapplicable. It makes no sense to say that God makes no sense. Why would anyone expect an omniscient, omnipresent, metaphysical being to make sense to us, with our mere quadrillion synapses?

My trite thoughts for the evening ....

Duane,

If, as the bible, christians and jews (and I would guess, Muslims) purport, their god made us in his image, which I suppose can be taken in any number of ways. He also is said to have created, well, everything - the cosmos. It all works within rules that we are coming to understand.

The assumption that any god is beyond our reckoning is taken too easily. I believe man, or perhaps his evolutionary descendants (assuming humans jump in the evolutionary pool again,) have or will have the capacity to discover and understand all of it. The whole enchilada. I'm not convinced that we will come to such a pass as there are far too many potential disasters awaiting us now and in the future for me to be convinced that humanity will survive long enough to get the job done. But, given the will, the opportunity, the time and the resources, we can crack the code.

So, even if there is some kind of god being out there in the ether, I think we just might figure the old SOB out, perhaps much to his chagrin. Hell, we might even catch him unawares while he's attempting to scratch where it itches, "Huh? What the...? How the hell did you guys get up here? Tell St. Peter to get his ass in here now!

Baritone