I know I'm walking on eggshells here, but I feel it needs to be said.

First of all, it's not fair to *solely* blame Phil for the direction the band took in it's later years. The influence is undeniable, sure, but he never had more say in the band than Mike or Tony. As the now classic line goes, "I'd like to see YOU make Tony Banks do something he doesn't want to do." It's actually probably more accurate to say that for these two albums, Phil still had the least creative influence on the band. Just look at the songwriting credits.

"Follow You, Follow Me" was also mostly a Rutherford composition. He was also largely responsible for the band's first mainstream ballad "Your Own Special Way" and "Alone Tonight" on Duke, so this was not out character for him at all. After all, this was the guy who went on to form Mike & The Mechanics (further proof the pop influence was not solely Phil's).

There's also a glaring factual error in this review. Duke wasn't influenced by Phil's solo success because it hadn't happened yet. Duke came out in 1980. Face Value came out in 1981.

Point taken on the release date for Collins "Face Value" Hung. I guess the larger point here though is that both albums came within the same general time frame. The song "Behind The Lines" even shows up on both albums.

I'm also well aware of the pop sensibilities and contributions to "pop Genesis" of both Rutherford and Banks. But the production techniques especially were becoming more and more influenced by Collins -- i.e. the "big" drums and the more "Brand Xish" jazz fusion sound.

In the end, there is little denying that Genesis essentially became Collins band at least as far as it's public face went. And "Invisible Touch" and "I Cant Dance" are a far, far cry away from "The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway," "Selling England By The Pound" or even "Duke" for that matter.

Thanx for the comment.

-Glen

Though I was never much of a fan of either version of the band, I did really like Duke, and particularly the Turn It On Again single. Maybe these transitional albums were actually the perfect balance between Genesis's prog & pop sensibilities.

The live album Seconds Out was also without Gabriel, wasn't it? This live version of Carpet Crawlers was my other fave Genesis piece. Hmm... maybe I'm just not a Peter Gabriel fan.

This "middle period" is actually my favorite period of the band for the reason stated by the above poster. It was an excellent balance of their progressive and pop sensibilities. My favorite three albums by Genesis come from this time period (in order: "Trick", "Duke", then "Wind"). I even feel Abacab is considerably underrated because, while very much mostly a pop album, it was very experimental for pop - much more so than its successors.

There's no denying that the public view of Phil Collins and Genesis were blurred. Phil was such a behemoth in the 80s, it's easy to see why any casual fan would confuse the two or believe that Genesis was simply the Phil Collins backup band. However, if you were to be accurate, you would have to realize Genesis were still a very democratic band whether or not you like the direction that they took. Anyone who's listened completely to the later albums also know that Genesis never completely abandoned their prog sensibilities - they still cranked out the odd long-ish, quirky, complex number.

Whether or not you like the music is your perogative, but I just felt it's important to point out that there was no mad power grab by Phil going on. Genesis is my "first love" musically, so I admit I am a bit of a fanboy and I WILL defend them to my grave. :)

Of course, everyone is entitled to their own taste, and when it comes to "sensibilities"...well, everyones is a little different.

I've probably made it a little obvious--ya' think?--that my own preference was for the so-called "prog years" with Gabriel and Hackett. And that I likewise didn't much care for the latter years where I again have to maintain that Collins did have the dominant influence, "democracy" or not.

That said though, I liked the mid-period quite a bit, espacially when Hackett was still with them. As Skeet more or less points out, "Seconds Out" is just a great live album. Now theres one I'd love to see get the "enhanced" treatment with video from the concert (if it even exists).

I also loved "Trick" "Wind & Wuthering" and "And Then There Were Three." "Duke" also has some great moments, as I think I pointed out.

From there, the band pretty much went south for me, although there are even moments there I sheepishly will admit liking ("Land Of Confusion" has a great hook and wonderful harmonies).

-Glen

Nice piece, Glen. I agree that Three has been unfairly ignored, but it does have that disadvantage that you point out of not seeming to know where it musically wants to go. Buyers seemed to sense this, too.

Four of the five releases in this group have great bonuses on the DVD. Abacab got really skimped-on, however, and I have to wonder if maybe they're planning a live DVD around this album's tour because it makes no sense that they wouldn't have included something other than the videos.

Can't wait to see what the Gabriel years sets yield, but I have a feeling the 83-97 sets are going to be a big let down (and yet I'll still probably buy them!) Notice the timing of release here - the Gabriel ones are set for around Christmas while the next ones are over the summer. Even the band realizes the next four aren't going to be selling huge numbers.

Very nice and new twists of Genesis a history:
I too would like to add the "And Then There were Three" is highly underrated, some of Tony Banks's keyboards are some of his best work. Take for instance "Down and Out" with a chromatic mediant relationship the Key of B moving to D (early instrumentation) then D minor to D major, root to the 3min chord progression.
I would like to say that Genesis seemed to become more experimental with their sound, seemingly enough 79 to 95 with their own recording studio (the Farm) that afforded the band to tweak the waveform resulting in each release sounding different from the previous one. Not to mention unlimited access to Studio and mixing console time, and producing their own work with outside help of Nick Davis, Hugh Padgham. Can anyone predict with minimul accuracy what their new sound will be? Hardly enough? If anything is evident "Calling all Stations" will be considered a sleeping giant as far as sound recording, musicianship, production & different sound. Perhaps with Genesis unpredictability more of latter and their best is yet to be revealed.

First of all, I do understand why some people who were huge Genesis fans in the beginning are not huge fans now because of the "popular" direction the band when in during the 80's. I for one would not have been a huge fan if it were not for the bands huge success in the 80's. I do not think that we should lose sight of individuals like me who would have never listened to the "prog rock" albums had it not been for Phil's solo success and the bands later albums. Besides, I don't think there is anything wrong with having commercial success. Really people everyone has to eat. (smile)