Dave in regards to the gas problem I want to throw this out there and see what ppl think of it..I am now living on Skidaway Iland in Savannah Ga a community of about 10000 ppl..every home owner owns a golf cart and we have a village shopping center..there are golf cart paths leading everywhere and residents use them to do thier shopping etc etc...
Why can"t suburbs redesign there streets and sidewalks to accommadate golf carts to at least do thier local shopping..ppl don"t use thier sidewalks for walking anyway..I came here from the midwest and I know this idea would not work in a city or super populated areas but there are plenty of suburbs where this idea would work..what do you think ?

If the Texas legislators are indeed in such trouble by being held over by the governor, can't they impeach him. I mean, a president in your country was impeached essentially for allowing a young ambitious woman to suck on his dick. This has got to be worse than that.

Of course, if the Texas governor is willing to provide young ambitious women to suck on the dicks of the legislators in Austin (or the equivalent for the ladies), it might be worth the extra stay and lost income...

Why can"t suburbs redesign there streets and sidewalks to accommadate golf carts to at least do thier local shopping..ppl don"t use thier sidewalks for walking anyway

I can't speak for the whole nation, but I know the answer for neighborhoods around here. Our local government doesn't require developers to put in sidewalks, hence neighborhoods have no sidewalks. That's one problem.

The other problem is that a lot of neighborhoods are now in residential clusters which are fairly distant from shopping areas. My neighborhood is 10 miles from the nearest real grocery store, and that's not at all uncommon. Getting there involves travelling on roads where a golf cart would be suicide.

Your idea is certainly appealing, but it would virtually require specially designed communities to work.

Dave

Ruvy, you have to prove 'high crimes and misdemeanors' to impeach a governor or a president, and Clinton was impeached for lying in court, not the adulterous act. All Perry is doing is bullying people with the power of his office. It sucks, but it's not a crime.

Dave

Why can"t suburbs redesign there streets and sidewalks to accommadate golf carts to at least do thier local shopping..ppl don"t use thier sidewalks for walking anyway

Besides the lack of sidewalks Dave pointed out, there is also a financial question; golf carts cost nearly as much as low-end cars these days, and even in a "golf cart" communities (we have several in Florida), you still have to have one or more cars to commute to work, etc. This is one reason why most golf cart communities are very upscale, like Skidaway, and Fisher Island in Miami.

How much oil would the use of golf carts save?

They have to be recharged each night, and in Florida at least, most of our electricity is generated by burning oil.

georgio,


Texas is big and HOT. When we say down the street we mean something totally different than what most people mean. Golf carts would work in some rare instances but not most.

Also our suburbs are becoming mini cities and golf cart traffic would be dangerous. However for my suburb it would work. The ride would be long and HOT intolerable for Dallasites actually. Remember we do our hair and full make up to go the the grocery store. We need air around here. Three minutes out doors in the Summer and you have to bathe to be considered among the civilized in society. Also, we are very impatient in these neck of the woods. If that cart had a turbo engine built on it it may cut it :o)

Dave

Texas a huge and you know that we rely on intrastate travel business in the Summer. When you are in save mode, its easy to hitch up the kids and to the capital or to Galveston and call that a vacation. However with these gas prices, people are talking about staying home AGAIN this year.

The oil refineries are still in record profit mode. I realise that you believe that this all even out but these profits for so long are unheard of. If they could be better regulated as opposed to approaching the halls of our legislative branch with arrogance as they did a few years back, we would see some reasonable prices filtering to the consumer. As it is now small gas station owners are boarding up because they are having to make concessions to keep prices low for their customers while refineries are having a ball.

The tollway thing is getting out of control. Its clear that Perry has no further political aspirations and is in full blown banana republic mode. He is simply riding the wave at a time when Americans have become accustomed to being screwed by the government and are in sort of a trance state. He has no real ideology, just his own personal agenda.

I hesitate to comment on the Farmers Branch story, because if Arch reads this it might set him off on another one of his death-to-illegals diatribes, but here goes.

While it may seem wrong that illegal immigrants may legally rent, any attempt to prevent them doing so does indeed risk falling foul of federal law, i.e. the Fair Housing Act. Although the Act doesn't specifically mention illegals as a protected category, it does say that landlords can't discriminate based on familial status. That's usually taken to mean marital status, but it doesn't take much of an intellectual leap to consider that it could also cover things like sexual orientation and immigration status (especially if the kids were born here and are therefore legal).

Even if you limit your interpretation to marital status only, it can still get contentious: we've had one or two cases at the Housing Authority where I work in which it's been an issue because of the landlord's religious objection to allowing unmarried couples to live together.

I digress slightly. I suppose my point is that the Fair Housing Act has a lot of wriggle room. The good citizens of Farmers Branch are about to find out which way the courts want to wriggle.

I am a little shocked that you guys who are so smart on the political issues can not expand your imagination outside of Texas..I lived all of my life in suburbs near Chicago and every suburb had a mini shopping center no more than a mile from your house and since most driving other than going to work where you do need a car is to go buy groceries or the hardware store so a golf cart is all you need..
I also realize that suburbs would have to rethink their street and sidewalk use but it could be done in many places lol maybe not Texas but believe me there are other states in the union....c"mon you guys ..expand your minds...

The oil refineries are still in record profit mode. I realise that you believe that this all even out but these profits for so long are unheard of.

This isn't quite what you present it as. Oil profits are based solely on a percentage of the price per barrel. So if the price per barrel goes up the profits go up. It's not a matter of profiteering or trying to jack up prices.

If they could be better regulated as opposed to approaching the halls of our legislative branch with arrogance as they did a few years back, we would see some reasonable prices filtering to the consumer.

Better regulated? As in forbidden to make a fair profit? That seems like a really bad idea. Their profit margins are tiny as it is compared to other businesses. The problem is the high price of oil. The only way to address that is to increase supply or reduce demand. That either means putting a hell of a lot more pressure on the Arabs or changing how we use gas.

As it is now small gas station owners are boarding up because they are having to make concessions to keep prices low for their customers while refineries are having a ball.

Gas station owners are boarding up because of overregulation which hits them hard and because a lot of them rent their properties and are losing their leases because of inflated real estate prices. Their profits have nothing to do with the price of gas or the profits of the oil companies. Gas is a loss-leader for stations. They essentially make no or next-to-no money on it. Their money comes from secondary sales.

Dave

The Texas legislature is like a chicken with an electric prod up its cloaca

So that's how you get that special fried chicken taste in Texas...

georgia

You don't know what hot is do you? Spend a summer in Texas and you will OPEN YOUR MIND. There are plenty of neighborhood markets in the central area of Dallas.

However again, you don't know what distances we are talking about in Texas. Open your mind.

In my development we have a intradevelopment shopping plan in the works but again, ITS HOT here. Getting on a golf cart and driving for 2miles parking and getting the seats nice and scorching, doing groceries while you are sweating and broken by the heat and loading the cart and driving back in the heat is not progress. Its simply torture. What for? At least scooter can be parked in a shaded area, and can be fast.

I've seen kids go to their freinds houses in golf carts... does that make you feel better?

Talk to someone whos lived around here in the summer. You have no clue............. Open your mind! I live in a golfing community and that still isn't practical unless the trees that line the walking trails grow by leaps and bounds in the next year or so.

I am sure there are communites like that in East Texas. Off course there are tons of retirement communities like that too but come here first, feel the heat and then talk about opening minds. You have to brace yourself to go from your house to the car.

Dave

We cant have a say in what goes on in Nigeria to affect oil prices. What we know and should affect is how the refineries have increased the percentage of their take in the past 2yrs while they are experiencing record high gains and the state and local authorities have decreased their taxes in order to try and offset the huge expense.

No one ever said that they shouldn't profit. Why did you make that up? You really know how to dilute a discussion by adding unnecessary statements that have NO relevance. Stay on topic.

The issue is making record profits and increasing your percent of the take when the consumer is being affected adversely. In he end, the consumer pays for it ALL. You act as if they are paying for it some how. When the cost per barrel goes up, WE pay for it true but why do they need to increase their costs too especially when their profits are obscene and unknown in recorded history.

Its called rape and you obviously like it because it falls in the parameters of your small theories about life. It doesn't work. Some guy is laughing while you struggle everyday to hold your head above water, not doing any more work than you, just holding you hostage because he has a product that you NEED. They must be regulation. Who is to keep them in check?

Its funny how farmers are regulated......

Dr.

What Farmer's Branch is saying is, we act as if its impossible to get rid of illegal aliens. Its not. Don't accommodate them.

I was in hospital this past week and the lady next to me did not speak English, she spoke Spanish exclusively. Because of my insurance status I HAD to share a room. The entire time she had the TV on Spanish TV. She had at least 3 nurses and care givers in there all of the time trying to understand what she wanted. She wouldn't punch the button for help so she kept asking me (screaming "senora!!!") all night to punch the button for her. She would disobey the nurses instructions even with an interpreter then something would happen, she fell a couple of times. I GOT NO REST!!! Then the signs in the hospital say "no more than two visitors and no children under 12". She had her mega family in and out and grand children 3, and 4yrs old. The cell phones were going off every 10minutes with "Bueno". None of her relatives spoke English. Her husband had his chair on my side of the room staring at me. I had a procedure in the nether parts of the bod and a catheter. You can imagine having a male watching my urine pour from my cath to a tube and just smiling. I couldn't walk so I couldn't move the curtain. There was much more but it was ALL toooooooooo much.

What was interesting is that all of my nurses were foreigners. I had 2 Indians, 2 Nigerians, an Ethiopian and a Filipino. They all had accents and came from FAR FAR away but they all spoke ENGLISH. None of their native languages even resemble English but they knew it. However because they were busy with madre in the next bed, they forgot about me quite a bit of the time. I requested to be sent home to recoup because I was just exhausted from all of the traffic, ring tones, crying babies, dancing talk shows and "senora!!!". I miss the pain pump but I'll suffer waiting for the next time I can take my meds, which is in 10min (hallelujah!!)

As an immigrant who knows many illegal immigrants who don't fall into any of the categories that drain society, I understand the need to work. Were I in Mexico, I'd be here, BUT, must we SUFFER!! Should there not be a clear acclimation process so that the culture is respected? Everyone else does who comes here.

What we know and should affect is how the refineries have increased the percentage of their take in the past 2yrs while they are experiencing record high gains

Except that they haven't. Refinery operating costs have increased, and that's reflected in the price, but the actual percentage of profit has NOT increased.

and the state and local authorities have decreased their taxes in order to try and offset the huge expense.

Which they certainly shouldn't have done.

The issue is making record profits and increasing your percent of the take when the consumer is being affected adversely.

I agree that this would be a problem if it were happening. But every bit of data I've seen shows zero change in the percentage of profit of all the major oil companies.

In he end, the consumer pays for it ALL. You act as if they are paying for it some how. When the cost per barrel goes up, WE pay for it true but why do they need to increase their costs too especially when their profits are obscene and unknown in recorded history.

Again, their profits are NOT obscene. Their profit margin is low compared to other businesses. They make money off of volume not off of price per gallon.

Its called rape and you obviously like it because it falls in the parameters of your small theories about life.

Zedd, if it were actually happening I'd be the first to object, but the facts DO NOT SUPPORT YOUR CLAIMS.

They must be regulation. Who is to keep them in check?

Well, you could do like I did and switch to biodiesel. As for regulation, it's the most heavily regulated industry short of medical research in the world.

Its funny how farmers are regulated......

Not terribly, actually.

Dave

Dave

Okay, you've drifted into Dave world and I know there is no pulling you out. Look up the distribution of cost by component from the tank.

Sigh.... We'll move on again.....

I like your picture by the way. Meant to say that last week.

Everybody talks about the price of gasoline, but no one even mentions how much water costs. If you buy your drinking water, it often costs more per gallon than gasoline.

Okay, you've drifted into Dave world and I know there is no pulling you out. Look up the distribution of cost by component from the tank.

Zedd, all that data and more can be found on this convenient government website and as one might expect, I don't see how any of it supports anything you've been saying here. Oil industry profit margins are tiny compared to other industries and have not increased significantly natonwide.

I like your picture by the way. Meant to say that last week.

Thanks. It's newer than the others I've used and I look a bit tired in it, but it's kind of friendly.

Dave

Hey Zedd,

I understand where you're coming from. First, mitigating circumstances: it's hard for adults to learn a new language, and the older you are the harder it is - especially if you spend most of your time surrounded by people who speak your own language.

Yes, it's frustrating when people immigrate to a country and don't make the slightest attempt to learn the lingo. But in the case of the US I hardly think it's that big of a deal: the English language is still overwhelmingly dominant and won't be going away any time soon. And even if such people do refuse to learn English, their kids will - and will probably speak it as their first language. In the meantime, in order to get things done we're just going to have to work with them - by providing services in other languages among other things.

This kind of thing becomes more of an issue when the "natives" speak a minority language. Take Welsh, which despite legislative efforts to mandate its teaching in schools is suffering from the overwhelming influence of the neighboring English-speaking culture - exacerbated by the influx from across the border of English people who make no effort to learn Welsh, usually on the grounds that everyone speaks English anyway.

I forget the exact number of living languages which are estimated to be dying out each year as a result of such incursions, but it's a lot. And humanity is much the poorer for their loss.

Lowering the tax on gas sounds like a really bad idea to me as well. It probably will result in only wider profit margins for oil producers or gas stations. If you decrease the tax by 20 cents the price at the pump this summer may only be a couple cents lower than it would have been otherwise. So really most of that 500 million loss in revenue to the Texas state legislature is being passed on as corporate profits to gas stations and oil refineries, not to the consumer. Like Dave said, the only way to really lower the price is to increase supply or decrease demand. Plus it's just dumb to encourage people to buy even more gas in summer when demand is already at its highest.

Exactly, PETI. Plus 20 cents out of $3 a gallon is hardly going to be noticed. Based on past summer price increases it's reasonable to expect the price to increase by more than twice that much in the next 3 months anyway.

What's more, now that we're getting a more significant number of stations selling E85, most drivers can go to those stations and buy ethanol and save way more than 20 cents a gallon.

Dave

I digress slightly. I suppose my point is that the Fair Housing Act has a lot of wriggle room. The good citizens of Farmers Branch are about to find out which way the courts want to wriggle.

From my reading of the act it does't say anything one way or another about immigration status, so I think the courts are likely to side with the ACLU against Farmers Branch on the basis of anti-discrimination elements of the Constitution and its Amerndments. I believe that some of the other towns which have passed ordinances like this have already had them struck down.

Dave

Dr

it's hard for adults to learn a new language, and the older you are the harder it is - especially if you spend most of your time surrounded by people who speak your own language.

You are totally right. I used to be the biggest defender of Mexican immigrants including illegal immigrants regarding this issue but its getting to be tooooo much. Asians come here as adults and they sweat to speak English, Africans from non English speaking countries come here as adults and speak English with pain. Spanish is similar to English, they are next door and the desire to speak it is just not there.

Months before we left SA even though we spoke English, we had English only weekends. Meal time was English only. My Dad prepared us for what was to come. To cross the boarder, it takes a lot of saving and preparation, language should be part of the prep.

If you knew the level on inundation you would feel differently. If the Indian and Pakistani community in Britain would not speak English and government signs would be in Bengali, clerical workers (jobs) would be for Indians in order to interpret when the time comes, things would be different. Lord forbid if they were all Nigerian....

Some people complain of taxes going up because of the same group bringing millions of kids into the school system, who drop out in a few years; millions into the county health system and justice system. They say it becomes problematic when 90% when weird driving happens you know who it is. It all points to one group. Communities end up being lumpy and all gerry rigged. Wildly loud signs are put up every where, zoning is overlooked, etc.

I personally understand the desire to be here. I would do it too. I also understand especially after my hospital stay, what Farmer's Branch is saying. It typically takes decades for neighborhoods to turn into ghettos. In illegal communities its within a few years.

@#23:

Even the liberal Black South African is a racist when it comes to brown people!

Even to the point of quoting from Dr. D's comment and twisting it around to rail against the "illegal" Mexicans.

You have one of the largest Latino populations in the US in Texas: about 35% of the total population. According to the US Census Bureau, the vast majority of these are legal; in fact most are native-born Texans of Mexican descent. According to USCB, fewer than 1/3 of Texas' foreign-born population is illegal. The raw number is approximately 1.5M, in a state of 24M people.

The "loud" signs and overlooking of zoning laws you complain of are unlikely to be from the illegals; they, for obvious reasons, keep as low a profile as possible.

When I lived in San Antonio, I managed an office of over 300 employees, 95% of whom were Tex-Mex. They were ALL legal; as a Mexican company operating in the US, we demanded proof of citizenship before hiring.

When speaking among themselves, they invariably spoke in a language unique to Mexican-Americans, which is a mixture of Spanish and English, known as "Pocho"; but when speaking to clients or Anglos they could, and did, speak perfect American English.

What's wrong with them speaking to each other any way they want to?

And, of course, until 1836, Texas was Mexican territory.

Unless you work in agriculture or construction, Zedd, the vast majority of "Mexicans" you see in your daily life are not only legal, they're probably Texas born.

Not just Texas born, Clavos. They've probably had ancestors in Texas going back a couple of hundred years or more, which few of the rest of us can claim.

Dave

Absolutely true, Dave.

I personally know people living on ancestral land in the San Antonio area who have land grant certificates for their land which are written in Spanish and which were issued by the Mexican government prior to 1836.

Clavos

I have told you about my relationship with Hispanics. I grew up with Mexicans. There was not difference in this area we were one. When I first arrived in this country I was scared at school and the first person who befriended me was a Mex-American little girl who I still love and loves me dearly today. I had prayed that God would let her be my friend because she was so pretty and quite :o)

I understand that Mexicans belong in Texas without say. As a young child coming from SA, I was furiously offended by the celebration of the Alamo because in my mind it was the taking of the land from a people, not understanding the dynamics, I equated the Mexicans to be like us in SA.

The topic is illegal Mexicans, for me.

This is not about Brown people! I'm insulted by that. It about intrusion Clavos. Until you experience it from another group YOU HAVE NO IDEA.

I remember years ago when my Moms friends (who happen to be "Anglo") in Florida were complaining about the language thing and the inundation and change of culture. I pronounced them racist. I hadn't walked a day in their shoes. I would argue that English is not the official language, this is not England and because this is a democracy, majority rules. Ha, ask me to repeat that now.

Certain Blacks will say behind closed doors, "now we know how Whites felt when we entered their neighborhoods in droves and did our own thing".

When I drive through a "changed" neighborhood, I get it. Its like Soweto. Its alive. The smell of food in the air and the music blaring is warm and loving in my mind. BUT for people who don't know anything about that life, its scary, messy, loud, untidy, garish, weird, destructive and chaotic. No one wants to build a $500,000 home and have THAT a couple of blocks going on along with the crime that comes with ALL ghettos.

Farmers Branch is a Suburb. Its one that has been sleepy for a while and is now building like crazy. There are mc mansion communities budding everywhere. Because it was sleepy, its got a large number of houses that will soon be rentals. These rentals will for sure turn into neighborhoods that are invaded by Mexican illegals and the entire landscape WILL change. You know the driving in Mexico (if you've been there), no one wants that in their community. The schools WILL explode. They don't want their property taxes exploding without income coming in because of renters. This has nothing to do with race. It has to do with economics and quality of life.

People who are acclimated into a culture over time and can operate within the system are typically accepted (by most to a degree). But the immense on slot of Mexican immigrants in the past 10yrs is shocking.

I was not racist in my hospital bed Clavos. I was tormented. I couldn't believe that it was happening. I was up calling the nurse all night for Madre (which I didn't mind); comforting her by sounding gentle and using my poor Spanish. No racism. I was in hospital for goodness sake and the day time was MAYHAM and they didn't care!! I recalled the poor hospitals back home with babies crying and eating and loud talking going on and I thought, "this is where they think they are". They are totally oblivious to their surroundings. They haven't made the psychological transition. The food deliverer had to shout sternly at the family like a lunatic because she couldn't get through to me to give me my tray of food. Everyone was on the phone, changing diapers and watching the endless party on TV. Not to mention the man on my side of the room sitting on a chair and starring at me. They had dismantled cousins from chairs and were sitting on the floor, using physical therapy items for patients as stools........... Oh to relive it all.

NO ONE wants that Clavos. NO ONE. You obviously don't know what a racist is.

Mexico needs to stop using these people and fix this situation. As I have said before, were I in their situation, I would cross the boarder too. It's the business owners and the governments that are using these families. Either way it's not pleasant. And NO ONE wants that next door.

Asians come here as adults and they sweat to speak English, Africans from non English speaking countries come here as adults and speak English with pain. Spanish is similar to English, they are next door and the desire to speak it is just not there.

Not always true. The hospital staff you talked about in your earlier post spoke English as a professional requirement - they wouldn't have gotten their jobs/visas otherwise.

Where I live in central California there is a large community of Hmong from Laos. The elders keep to themselves and usually do not speak any English. They rely on their children who were born and/or educated here when they need to interact with American society at large. The Hmong are an introspective people anyway, made even more so by years of languishing in refugee camps in Thailand, waiting to come to America.

They are here legally, they love America and wish dearly to contribute. But they have a broad comfort zone which it is very daunting for the older Hmong to step out of, especially since their culture and language is so drastically different from our own.

I highly recommend a book called The Spirit Catches You and You Fall Down, by Ann Fadiman, which relates the story of the Hmong and the difficulties both their culture and ours face when they collide.

Clavos

Sorry about the long responses...

NO you are wrong about the colorful communities. I grew up with Mexicans, the loud signs did not pop up in my neighborhood or any neighborhoods then. Some of the Mexican houses were brightly painted but that was it. They are Americans just like everyone else. They are just as acclimated to American society. Even in exclusively poor Mexican areas, they were not all neoned out. The loud umpa umpa music was not anywhere to be heard. The number of illegals is so immense that no one cares about hiding. They are not living in hiding.

Your bringing up the fact that Mexican-Americans speak Spanish among each other is no biggie. Remember, I am an immigrant I speak my languages with my mom. No biggie.

The family next to me in my hospital bed could not speak English at all. None of them. They were not Mexican Americans. I thought when the adult children came in the morning we could talk and I'd explain to them that their mom was crying and that she can prss the button, etc. They no abla.

San Antonio is a bad example btw. Everyone just about is Mexican. There is nothing major to re-acclimate to.

"Madre" sounds exactly like the animal that was sharing my room last year in the hospital. I've had 4 Hispanic roommates in hospital so far in the last year, & every one was a non-English-speaking, demanding, aggravating, whining, babbling idiot with a horde of equally whining, demanding, LOUD, non-English-speaking relatives who spent/spend all their time squatting in the room at all hours (including those forbidden) & ignoring all the rules, despite my repeated demands to the hospital that rules be enforced. I finally managed to get moved OUT to a different room, different roomies. Their level of hygiene was almost non-existant, as well. They seem to take not speaking English as an excuse to do what they damn well please, & make exorbitant demands on the staff, not to mention other patients.

In this area, at least, the illegals have an overweening sense of entitlement, fostered by a series of misguided if not criminally bleeding-heart politicians pimping for votes (illegal or otherwise, they don't care), and yes indeed, they do DEMAND access to services & 'rights' as if they were citizens; nor do they try to keep a 'low profile' - would that they did. As it is, they are the #1 source of crimes of all sorts, from drug dealing & machete attacks to rapes & murder, to shoplifting & public rowdiness. Our police budget & hospital emergency room budgets have skyrocketed because of them. The schools are stuffed with the hordes of their brats, while school budgets are diverted from teaching rightful students (i.e. citizens & legal immigrants' kids) in order to accomodate them.

Personally I favor a $20 bounty on each illegal scalp that gets turned in, no questions asked.

DR

I am not saying that it is inherent in the Mexican gene to be invasive and not accommodating the system.

I am saying the the NUMBER of people all at once, in a short time span who don't speak the language and aren't acclimated yet fully engage in society, is daunting if not disturbing to other people, regardless of country of origin.

Also you speak of the elders. I'm assuming you are referring to the elderly. My concern is with 20 somethings. There are Africans who were raised in French speaking countries, who come here and learn the language out of survival.

It certainly isn't Mexican or Hispanic or anything else, but it IS cultural. Most of these people come from the absolute bottom rung of the socioeconomic ladder, or they'd be able to make it back home. They're the same as the trash occupying the bottom of the Anglo-American socioeconomic ladder, who are equally loud, obnoxious, selfish, ignorant, stupid - & prolific. One of my orthopedic surgeons' wives (also a nurse in the same hospital) is a middle-class Peruvian, & she says these people don't/can't even speak standard Spanish, let alone read or write it, so even SHE can't talk to them! It's some kind of patois. Nor does she behave as they do. They're from the slums, and they act like it.

BTW, Dave, I DO like your new photo, but I think you'd look better in your cowboy hat. It's more you, somehow.

Nancy

You know the HELL. I couldn't believe it was happening. I thought this cant be. The Spanish television just about killed me. I thought, this is a crime! Its been a week and I am still in shock!!!

When her family unhooked my phone and plugged my jack to hers while I was right there, I was just stunned. I think she had static on her line. My poor mom called 7 times. It didn't even dawn to them that the caller is English speaking perhaps the call is for "senora" on the next bed.

I could tell by the food deliverer's demeanor that she was used to the mayhem and knew what to do. She did not crack one smile. She was beaten down.

I will not set foot in certain stores for the same reason. The mayhem is toooooooo much. There is a Wal Mart where it doesn't matter what time of the night, its like a party. No one gets out of your way in the isles and the ninos are opening boxes with no parental supervision ANY WHERE around. You look around and think that you must e in a dream of sorts.

None of this makes sense. Those politicians are going to get theirs. Illegals don't vote.

Zedd, nancy,

You two may not think you're being racists, but you are.

Zedd, if I were to replace "Mexican(s)" with "Black" and "Spanish" with "Ebonics" everywhere those words appear in your comments, the comments would sound like they'd been written by David Duke himself.

Nancy, from all of your posts I've read over the last several months,I've long since known you have a generalized xenophobia about any immigrants, so I'm not surprised.

But I did expect better from Zedd.

Oh well.

As we say in Mexico, ni modo.

They do around here; rumor has it the governor would like to give orders to look the other way & not 'insult' non-english-speaking-would-be-voters by asking for IDs or other proof of citizenship/registration.

I certainly hope you did raise some hell of your own, Zedd, instead of just lying there taking it? I left that room, but only after seeing to it that the little swine was in tears & thoroughly understood in any language she & hers were trash. They were rather more subdued after that.

No - I'm a classist, altho I plead guilty to a degree of xenophobia for which I do not apologize. I don't care what color anyone is, as long as they behave in a manner acceptable to most people in a standard situation. Persons who behave like Zedd's & my erstwhile hospital roomies, or like the people currently upstairs from me (who are lily-white) are equally noxious to me, as are the super-rich such as the Paris Hiltons & Bush Twins of the world. Had Zedd been the one unplugging this woman's phone, would you have accused her (the Hispanic) of being racist?

Question, Clavos: at what point does disapproval of the behavior of others become 'racist'? Are you claiming that all bad behavior by others is to be considered acceptable because they don't know any better, or that is their "culture", even if the culture is a product of ignorance & filth? I take issue with that, if that is what you contend. The behavior of these women - & their families - was rude, crude, & abusive, and you know it. To say it is racist for others to object actually is sort of racist yourself, because you're saying they're no better than that, so should be accepted as being naturally dirty, nasty, loud, obnoxious, etc. Like having low expectations for black schoolkids, if you can see what I'm driving at.

Nancy asks,

Question, Clavos: at what point does disapproval of the behavior of others become 'racist'?

That's an easy one, Nancy:

At the point where you attribute the behavior of individuals to an entire class or race of people, as both of you did upthread in a number of posts; implicitly and explicitly.

If attributed to a class, it's classism, which you admitted to upthread.

If attributed to a race, it's racism.

I will stipulate that both of you primarily were practicing classism, but because the class you were stereotyping is of just one race, Latino, some of your comments were racist as well as classist, IMO.

Both are morally repugnant and unamerican, IMO.

Clavos

I realise how I could sound racist. But I am not talking about an innate inferiority. I am not talking about Mexicans by no means. I am talking about this phenomenon which you have no experience with, which is MASSIVE illegal immigration in a short period of time by ONE main group.

It wouldn't matter if these individuals were from Bulgaria, I would still be stunned.

But Clav, think about experiencing the inconvenience. You didn't comment on the horror of my hospital stay. You said nothing about the economic burden, the drop out rates, the crime rates. You cant just ignore these things from people who have chosen (for valid reasons for them) to intrude on a nation.

You see our culture is to pursue the American dream. A nice home in a quite neighborhood, etc, etc. When a large, illegal population ascends upon you derailing everything that you hope for in a society, its scary and frustrating.

The people in Farmers Branch want their pursuit of happiness. They don't want the Mexican slum dream.

You see Clav, I work in the inner city. A majority Black community. One of the things that is glaring is that the inhabitants of this particular community are clueless about what the rest of society is all about. Their values are different. I work with preteens to take them places so that they can see how people act and what people do in various settings. I've been volunteering there since I was a teen. I still don't shut my mouth about the things in that community that make it a dump. That is not racist. Its just an observation. I don't say Blacks are lazy and dirty and don't possess the natural motivation to pull themselves up. I say the people in this community are don't take care of their community "there is no way that I would ever want to live here or have them move into my community". That has nothing to do with race, its a fair observation and choice of lifestyle for myself. Now think, these people in this community are OUR criminally saturated, loud, chaotic people. Why would anyone want even these people to move a block away. Let alone illegal immigrants with the language and total misunderstanding of culture.

The same Wal Mart that I spoke of earlier turned me off of the the chain when a few years back, the people of this urban community were all over. There was a large number of massively over weight, loud Black women with these hair styles, loud rap in the parking lot and a number of things that made me feel unwelcome.... I thought "YIKES, oh my goodness! This place is not for me". A few years later when the illegal community entered, even the people who I thought were too much were complaining about the mayhem. Its just toooooo much Clav.

Its tough enough to tolerate one of your children if they are strung out and chaotic. You certainly wouldn't take in some stranger's kid to do that to your life and more.

That is the point. Forget the race thing. It is a distraction from the what we all need to focus on. We need to get on Mexico, business owners here and our politicians that are using these people. This cant go on forever. They want to be home too. They just want the promise of a better tomorrow for their children. That is why they are here.

In order to give my children the right perspective on this immigration thing, I got a book for my teen about two siblings who HAD to buy their way to the US. It was touching. They would cry for the kids when they shared the chapters with me, I cried with them and it gave them a sensitivity to the individuals that cross the boarder. It also gave them a glimpse of the political and economic structure around the issue.

One of the biggest mistakes that AAs made from the start was not publicly acknowledging problems that were obvious about the AA community. While all AAs will tell you what is wrong with AA ghettos and will be more condemning than most Whites, we don't say it in public. We become defensive. That was/is a HUGE mistake. The problems are clear for EVERYONE with half a brain to see. If you ignore them YOU look like an idiot and people dismiss you. Don't make the same mistake. Love your peeps but don't enable and end up totally discredited and getting lumped into the bag with everyone, good, bad or ugly.

By the way Mexican is not a race. You know that.

Zedd,

I am talking about this phenomenon which you have no experience with, which is MASSIVE illegal immigration in a short period of time by ONE main group.

I have more experience than you. For several years now, Miami has had a higher rate of immigration than any other city in the USA. Census Bureau's statement, not mine.

Dallas and its suburbs are not majority immigrant. Miami is.

The people in Farmers Branch want their pursuit of happiness. They don't want the Mexican slum dream.

Too bad. EVERY immigrant group that has come to this country in the last 150 years has started out living in slums, because that's all that's available to them until they establish themselves. Deal with it.

A few years later when the illegal community entered, even the people who I thought were too much were complaining about the mayhem. Its just toooooo much Clav.

The very same things have been said about Blacks, Slavs, Irish, Germans and EVERY IMMIGRANT group. Get over it.

By the way Mexican is not a race. You know that.

No but "brown" (Latino, or as the government calls it, Hispanic), is. And the "illegals" (as well as the "legals", which most are, BTW) you're seeing in Texas and all over the country are of ALL LatAm nationalities, not just Mexican.

The most glaring evidence that it's racism is that everyone who sees a group of "loud, messy, badly behaved" (your words, not mine) brown-skinned Latinos automatically assumes they're "illegals", which the vast majority are NOT.

Again, you sound JUST like the whites I know who are prejudiced against blacks...

I expected better of you.

Clavos

At the point where you attribute the behavior of individuals to an entire class or race of people, as both of you did upthread in a number of posts; implicitly and explicitly

Both Nancy and I are used to conversing about groups of people. She is an Anthropologist, you know my background.

Attributing certain behaviors or characteristics to a group is not RACIST. No one said that the mayhem is innate.

Nancy has a no nonsense approach. She calls our politicians maggots. That is her way. If she doesn't like it, she doesn't mince words.

Clavos #41

We are talking about ILLEGAL ALEINS.

None of your contentions apply.

I am not talking about Mexicans. Stop the drama.

I am not talking about a RACE.

If millions of Nigerians descended upon your city and required Ibo to be on all documentation. If 1/3 of the TV stations were in Ibo. If they set up markets at the beach like back home, played High Life music constantly and turned significant parts of Miami into Lagos, THEN you would know what I am talking about.

Zedd -

You are no racist, brush off the accusation. You have bent over backwards to explain your frustrations and the reasons for them. You're right, Nancy pulls no punches. Maybe she could have a little more compassion but she does get her points across in such a way that many, many of us can relate to.

Clav

You don't know what you are talking about.

The most glaring evidence that it's racism is that everyone who sees a group of "loud, messy, badly behaved" (your words, not mine) brown-skinned Latinos automatically assumes they're "illegals", which the vast majority are NOT.

I don't. AGAIN I grew up with Mexican Americans.

When I see loud, messy, badly behaved Black skinned people, I don't think that they represent ALL Black people

When I see loud, messy, badly behaved White people (I live in Texas in what used to be a small town now subburb, they exist plentifully on the outskirts), I don't think that all Whites are like that.

I've got enough common sense to attribute behavior to the group that it belongs to.

Aprehended Aliens from Latin American countries

Country / Total Alien Apprehensions / Total Criminal Apprehensions

Cuba/ 23893/3969

Dominican Republic/ 16372/ 8926

El Salvador/ 58013/ 9573

Guatemala/ 47923/ 6417

Honduras/ 65313/ 8232

Mexico/ 480563/ 257718

Nicaragua/ 5227/ 1281

There is a reason for focusing on this particular population.

Not sure where you got those figures from, Zedd, but it looks as if, proportionately, we have a bigger problem with Dominican Republic nationals (54.5% criminal vs. alien apprehensions) as with Mexicans (53.6%).

Dr

Apologies. That data comes from the Department of Homeland Security

The problem is not with the percent for the population, the problem is with the total number of occurrences. 8,926 vs 257,718 is significant.

Farmer's Branch would and should consider that.

Mexicans are the largest number of illegals in Texas. The next population is El Salvadorian, then from Honduras then Guatemala. These groups are barely represented. People from the Dominican Republic are not an issue in Texas.

Side note: According to census data, the next largest group to migrate to Texas are Vietnamese. Again, not running into the cultural intrusion from this group.

Just for the record since everyone else 'grew up with mexican americans', I didn't even SEE a Hispanic that I'm aware of until I was 23 and moved to Texas.

Dave

Neither did I, having been raised in London's outer suburbs.

This is such a contentious issue. The only one I can think of that's aroused more heated feeling on Blogcritics is abortion. Where you stand doesn't seem to depend much on what your general political outlook is, more on your personal experience. President Bush, for instance, supports a guest worker program (just about the only issue I agree with him on) in the face of strong opposition from most of his party and some of the other.

One of the most vocal critics I know of illegal immigration is a Mexican-American woman I work with. I disagree with her. I'm a legal immigrant, and it's constantly assumed by those who are irked by illegals that because I did things 'the right way', I should resent those who take a different approach. But I'm well aware that the whole process was made a lot easier for me, a white European, than for the brown-skinned people who stood in line and waited patiently in IRS waiting rooms with me.

I first came in on a fiancé visa. The clock started ticking the moment I landed: I had to marry within 90 days, after which I could apply to adjust my status to that of permanent resident - a process which could take up to three years. My online research had led me to believe that I would be able to work while I was waiting to get married and apply for residency. Shortly after I arrived, I presented myself at the local IRS office (which, thankfully, was in town, or goodness knows how much traveling I would have had to do). My application for adjustment of status was accepted but I was told that I could not work. I stood my ground and insisted that the IRS website did indeed indicate that the fiancé visa came with authorization to work. After a brief consultation with her supervisor, the immigration officer agreed to grant me the work permit.

I strongly doubt that if my skin had been of a darker shade and my passport had been green instead of maroon, it would have been as easy to persuade the IRS to let me work.

Here I should insert a caveat that this was right before 9/11. After that, things got a lot more rigid. I was lucky, but my race certainly had a lot to do with my luck.

Attributing certain behaviors or characteristics to a group is not RACIST.

It is when you observe a given set of behaviors or characteristics in a limited sample of people and extrapolate those observations to cover the entire group or class.

That is, in fact, the very essence of racism.

If I were to observe a group of young Black gangbangers in South Central LA beating up on the homeless and stealing little old ladies' purses, and if I were then to come to BC and post a comment proclaiming that all blacks are thugs, I would be guilty of racism.

See the parallel?

Clavos

No one said all illegal aliens are anything. You keep taking that route. You know the stats lets stop playing games.

Look at the studies which compare illegals to legal Mexicans. Its all there.

The cultural stuff is not because they are bad, its just that any people of one culture can not descend upon another culture in the numbers that your peeps have and not have a negative reaction.

In SA the Zims are disliked for the same reasons.

Everywhere on the planet, people don't like their world to be disturbed or taken over by strangers, especially when it is not being improved in a manner that they judge improvement.

Dr.

What got you your papers was your marriage to a citizen, not your skin.

What got you your permit was your knowledge of the rules, not your skin.

I became a citizen as a child. My first hubby was not and got his perm residency through me. It went like you said. He was not White.

Maybe, Zedd. I'm not saying I wouldn't have gotten my work permit at all had I not been white. I'm just suspecting that I wouldn't have gotten it as fast.

Dr

You could be right. Possibly your country of origin played a role. I don't know but there could be ways of the gov side stepping the race thing by designating prefered countries of origin.

For the record, Clavvie, the first illegal I ever met who got me pissed off by her illegality (& I've written about her before on BC) was a white, middle class Canadian woman. I was - & am - just as steamed about her as I am about illegal blacks-browns-asians-or plaids. She's ILLEGAL. THAT & that alone is the point. As for Zedd's & my unfortunate hospital roomies, had they been (as Zedd points out) white & speaking perfect English, they STILL would have been jerks & unwelcome, on the basis of their grossly asocial & rude behavior & flouting of all rules. Jerks are jerks, it doesn't matter the point of origin, race, or religion. And yes, you can indeed ascribe negative aspects of behavior to entire groups of people. If I say 'redneck', almost everyone in the US will know exactly what I mean: loud, boorish, in-your-face, vulgar people who tend to swill beer & deliberately talk like ignoramuses even when they know better. Prime example: Dubya Bush - altho he's a faux redneck, having been born/brought up in CT, not TX. It is indeed painting an entire group of a specific race (white) with a tarred brush, but it's valid because it's true. In the same way, can you honestly sit there & try to tell me with a straight face that MS-13 members are NOT almost exclusively of the Salvadoran criminal/lower class elements? No, I can't say that all Salvadorans are members of MS-13; but I CAN certainly say that MS-13 is Salvadoran, and it would not be racist to say so. Facts are facts, regardless of the PC-inclined. Zedd is right: most of the people I see in Walmart are lower-class/working class, obese women & their kids. You just don't see Paris Hilton types in there often if at all. It just doesn't happen. So is it racist to point out that Wallie's is a lower-class venue for the obese?

There's nothing racist about calling the shots as you see them, even if they DO seem to be politically incorrect. The fact that the vast preponderance of illegals stem from hispanic venues, & comprise the lowest possible socioeconomic class of their countries does not render it racist that I consider them to be "undesirable" - because if they came from Oz or Britain or France, they'd be JUST as undesirable, be they white, yellow, or any other color of the rainbow.

You want to consider it racist that a lot of us don't want to welcome scofflaws of hispanic or any other alien origin with open arms? Fine. Go ahead. But that doesn't make it so, just because YOU say so. No one died & left you as God, or arbiter of what is racist & what is not. I like you, Clavvie, even if you do traffic with the very rich - but sometimes you start to take on some of Dave's self-righteousness & know-it-all attitude. Oh well.

BTW - how are the wildfires down there? Any in your neck of the woods, so to speak, or are you further south?

Nice diatribe, Nancy, but misses my point completely:

It is wrong to assume that ALL Latinos are:

1. Loud

2. Can't control their children.

3. Inconsiderate.

Etc., etc.,

Just because you see SOME of them exhibiting behavioral characteristics of which you don't approve.

And worse, it's WRONG to assume that just because you observe a particular Latino or group of them behaving like that, that they are illegals.

It's equally wrong to assume that Spanish-speaking people in this country are illegal, simply because you hear them speaking Spanish. The fact is that only about half the Mexican residents currently in the USA are illegal, and the proportion of other nationalities that are illegal is significantly lower than half. They ALL speak Spanish among themselves, just as the first (immigrant) generation of other groups (Italians, Germans, Swedes, etc.) did before them. The difference is that the Latino immigration is a relatively recent phenomenon (except for the Texas Tex-Mex population), and most haven't even had a second generation of any size yet.

One exception is the Cubans here in Miami, who have been here long enough (some, 40+ years) to have children and even grandchildren who are Americans. Those who came from Cuba speak Spanish all the time; their children do not.

I know that, & I don't assume all Latinos or people speaking languages other than English are illegals, for pete's sake. Nor do I assume those speaking good English are all legal. I DO assume when I meet such people as those Zedd & I have encountered, that they are from the bottom of the socioeconomic food chain, since they obviously don't know any better than to behave like Yahoos (the Gulliver variety). In MOST cases, however, such people ALSO preponderantly tend to be illegal, since otherwise they wouldn't be in the desperate situation of having to leave home for someplace alien. And again, some of the nursing staff were Latino, but they couldn't communicate well with these characters, either; they were entirely too low on the educational/intellectual scale to even speak proper or correct, intelligible Spanish, Spanglish, or anything else the staff could come up with. They were obviously not used to decent facilities or regular hygenic practices. All this points to people of the poorest class, who smuggled in here illegally. It's unlikely they arrived first class off a plane, wouldn't you agree?

It's not so much racism, as observation & deduction, a la Sherlock Holmes. Statistics aren't racist. They just are.

Clavos,

Lets do this. What problems do you see with this massive influx of illegal aliens into this country?

Clavos

Reading your response to Nancy, I am just shocked. I know how it is to see things about your people but don't want to admit it to everyone else. I live it everyday. I think everyone does to varying degrees.

However I am starting to wonder..........

I used to think why doesn't Spanish radio do service announcements about THE FAST LANE and the slow lane on the highway. This was a huge phenonminon.

or

The NINOS at the store. Its glaring.

or

Moving out of the way in the isle instead of having 5 relatives there shopping together clumped and holding up a line of grocery carts, looking at you like you are insane when you say "excuse me" clearly signifying that you need to pass.

What I am reading is that you don't see these things. Perhaps you too cluelessly drive 25 Miles an hour on the fast lane with a billion cars behind you as you proceed without a care in the world enjoying life, oblivious to the daggers of looks of those finally passing you.

Who knows??

Like I said Clav, if you pretend not to see these things, it will only discredit YOU. Like it or not they exist. Certainly the statistical stuff is there (crime; affects on taxes because of schools,and hospitals; drop out rates...). These are real. Why would any country welcome these from ILLEGAL aliens? Especially if the group is SO LARGE and is going to change the country in a tremendous way?

Zedd, Nancy:

OK. I haven't the patience to go through this again, so let's just agree to disagree; I'm not going to convince you and vice versa, so let's just move on.

Clavos

I will commit to be more sensative.

Zedd wrote: "Perhaps you too cluelessly drive 25 Miles an hour on the fast lane with a billion cars behind you as you proceed without a care in the world".

Ah, the old "I'm the only car on the freeway trick". Are we talking about Latinos in the US here, or the recent huge influx of mainland Chinese immigrants to Australia?

The most dangerous stretch of road in Australia: The 500m of Dixon St (and the three blocks surrounding it), in downtown Sydney's Chinatown - scene of all my recent car bingles. This is not a phenomenon exclusive to the US. Many new immigrants to other countries have problems adapting to the new cultural morays - whoops, make that mores (sorry Zedd :). It's just that what passes as normal elsewhere is an issue somewhere else.

By the second generation, they're gone, all those annoying issues. And that's all they are, really: annoying. We should be worrying about more important stuff, like how to be more welcoming and inclusive so we don't issues of race, class, religion and culture constantly dividing us all.

We should be worrying about more important stuff, like how to be more welcoming and inclusive so we don't issues of race, class, religion and culture constantly dividing us all.

Quoted for Truth!

STM

The issue has to do with the fact that we are talking about illegal immigration and the enormous numbers all at once. Multipy your "annoyance" 10 fold including crime, increased taxes, drop out rates (which gaurantee generations of more crime and economic drain).

You are right about people trying to understand a culture and the patterns of acclimating. This particular situation is different. We are talking about 4 million people and their children and grand children (teen pregnancy), perhaps 10 million people in a very short time.

Those annoyances also affect quality of life for the enhabitants of the culture. If a once quite pic nic at the lake is now a loud over crouded maze, body upon body, music umpa-ing everywhere, the pursuit of happiness is affected. Also you can bet that some of those habits will become infused into the culture and normalized. The annoyances will be permanant.

Change and evolution happens. At some point we will have another Ice Age and then the earth will warm... However we don't want to push the distructive affects on our way of life into happening faster than they need to. This massive influx is too much too fast.