nice presentation of the general proposition Richard -

I suggest a follow-up project that would lend credence to it would be for you to choose a developing country and document how the process actually has worked out there

I predict that without discussion of actual instances your argument will be rejected as 'bitching from the left'

Excellent comment, troll.

Richard, he's right.

Richard, I'm no fan of the IMF, but what you seem to miss here is that there are relatively good reasons for the things which it does.

First off, there's the history - particularly in the 1970s and 1980s of nations, including rather large and relatively modern ones, defaulting on loans from the IMF. Their policies were more lenient in that period and they took a bath as a result.

Second, the countries to which they loan the money should theoretically be benefitting from the economic restructuring which the IMF demands. These changes are intended to make the economies of those countries more efficient and more productive, which ought to benefit the countries and their people in the long run.

The problem with a lot of these countries is that they are mired in institutionalized corruption so vast that it's inconceivable to westerners, even Europeans. The IMF's goal is basically to force those countries to straighten up and deal fairly with their people and other nations.

Things like bringing in foreign investment are unquestionably good for those countries. Foreign run factories may pay what we consider slave wages, but their wages are substantially higher than those paid by local businesses - often as much as double the prevailing wage. With the low cost of living in these countries a wage which seems insanely low to us is actually fantastic in context, and people fight over opportunities to work in these 'sweatshops'.

The faulty assumption which you are perpetuating here is that it's somehow possible to magically take a country which basically has a medieval economy and bring it into the 21st century overnight. It just doesn't work that way. You have to gradually build up from virtual slavery to something more equitable, and the IMF's reforms are designed to do that.

Having said this, I still think the IMF should be abolished, because this type of economic missionary work can be done by businesses themselves with some minimal government guidance and shouldn't be done by some giant, unanswerable international bureaucracy funded by US taxpayers.

Dave

not everyone agrees that the theories of Prof Draco lead to best results for the people of developing countries or that they maximize holdings of those countries

the bottom line: who owns and who owes what at the end of the day -

it's not clear that it is in the best interest of such countries to join and serve as a buffer in modern boom and bust capitalism, but development loans seem to require it

I think most people are no fans of the IMF. There have been unfavorable conditions. However, it doesn't mean they are not trying to fix things.

It's about time we look at the countries receiving the money. For too long we turned a blind to the outright corruption of these nations who inflict far more damage upon their own people than the so-called evil rich countries. Often times they lined their own pockets and by using the U.S. (the West in general need to lighten up on the agricultural subsidies by the way) as a scapegoat it only deflected scrutiny from them.

The U.S. economy is very important (if not essential) and the fact that they have a huge debt shouldn't detract from this.

I'm also fed up: fed up of having to be the root of the world's troubles. Here's a question: what would the world economy be like without the United States?

Enoyed the article even though I disagreed in parts.

Nicolo

I'm also fed up: fed up of having to be the root of the world's troubles.

Are you saying that you are tired of being the world leader? Surely you realise that it comes with the territory.

Are you tired of gaining from that status as well? Are you tired of calling the shots in the UN, IMF, and World Bank?

You've got to pay the cost to be the boss. You know that.

Also I am not sure what suffering the US is experiencing by being asked to be accountable in the positions that we WANT to hold? How is questioning our methods stressful for you? How is your life being affected by America being held accountable as apposed to the people of these developing countries? Rather bratty perspective isn't it alessandro?

However, I suppose instead of whining about public schools and running water they could always go to prep schools and have their water delivered. Bread? No I say let them eat cake. Now can we all get back to American Idol? I'm FED UP with all of this. Oh the stress to my deserving self.

Zedd, take it easy. I was merely trying to show that it's not always the rich countries fault. No stress here. Perhaps I could have chosen better words.

What I do know from friends who work in these places is that they do truly take into consideration the struggles of poor countries. They acknowledge there's much to be done but they would not mind not having to deal with the corruption that truly hampers things. We tend to ignore this.

I also tried to make the point that (after spending 10 years of my life in the financial world) that we act as though the United States is some economic mistake. It isn't. The state of the global economy depends on its health.

That's all I tried to make. I'm not an idiot and realize Mr.Marcus's point. It's just that we've come a long way on the bad, rich, white side of things.

By the way, Nicolo is my family name.

alessandro

I apologies for calling you by your family name. I understand how that can be disrespectful. Truly sorry. Most contributors don't use their names...

I think that it is our cavalier attitude that gives our leaders permission to commit unethical deeds in our name.

Wolfowitz walked into the World bank with the "I'm in charge and you don't know what you are doing" attitude right after goofing with Iraq. Knowing that the US was the largest investor and therefore had the biggest voice, he alienated the other board members that represent the other countries.

With all of the challenges that new countries (those are most of the poor countries) have and the shear terror that the people live under just trying to survive, it really shouldn't take that much to approach such duties with thought and understanding. Busting in with guns blazing without a clear understanding of the proper protocol shows a lack of respect for what the organization does and actually a lack of respect for the people that it serves.

It is absolutely healthy to look at the manner in which we conduct ourselves internally and internationally and to critique ourselves. Actually not doing so is irresponsible. Wanting to be patted on the back while we extort poor people and saying that we are doing a better job than we used to is odd at best. Are we so insecure that we cant tolerate being corrected? We pat ourselves on the back plenty. The problem is that we don't PROBE into what we are really doing. That is why the current administration knew that they would get away with the farce that was this war. 600,000 are dead and we STILL want constant praise. Come on!

Dave

they are mired in institutionalized corruption so vast that it's inconceivable to westerners, even Europeans.

I think an Italian or Spanish citizen would find that statement to be rather funny. Lets not mention Eastern Europeans.

Dave again

The faulty assumption which you are perpetuating here is that it's somehow possible to magically take a country which basically has a medieval economy and bring it into the 21st century overnight.

I'm sure you read this article. Where in the article did the writer of this article say anything resembling this? He spoke of unfair stipulations on loans that actually affect their developing an infrastructure.

Zedd, my friend, no apologies necessary. I was just pointing it out. I don't get offended easily.

"It is absolutely healthy to look at the manner in which we conduct ourselves internally and internationally and to critique ourselves. Actually not doing so is irresponsible."

Agreed. I don't think, however, we're looking (at least I'm not) to be patted on the back. My point is that efforts are being made. Now whether under Wolf-Man this is being ignored is another matter.

In terms of corruption, I would add France to that list. In soccer, the Brits rival anyone.

Alessondro

The Brits are so good at being corrupt you almost admire them.

Zedd, I don't follow. :<)

Zedd is clearly not terribly familiar with the kind of corrupt elitism which dominates Europe if she thinks the at the Brits are anywhere near the top of the heap of corruption.

She also seems not to grasp the enormous, but smaller-scale corruption which makes most third-world countries immune to many of the potential benefits of foreign aid.

Dave

Dave

What are you talking about? We are talking about corruption in football (soccer).

How is that I would be familiar with the corruption in the developing world? However as for you saying that its the corruption that contributes to the problems of them not being able to benefit from the IMF and World Bank, its you buddy that is unaware. You do realise that what sustains Western nations is the alliance that they have. It is the interlocking interdependence which works as a safety valve for the economies of even the most corrupt European states.

Because of the newness of the continent of Africa, lets say, not only are internal structures weak so are regional structures. Each nation is isolated economically and highly vulnerable. Off course when you add countries like ours' predatory lending practices, you then have some major problems. Progressing and building an infrastructure that will insure a strong middle class is impossible. Without proper education systems and off course jobs for the educated, you end up with a brain drain. Look in the Engineering departments of all of our universities. You find them there and in the cabs with their PhDs.

Slow down. Zedd is a "she?" Now that changes everything. Heh.

"However as for you saying that its the corruption that contributes to the problems of them not being able to benefit from the IMF and World Bank, its you buddy that is unaware."

Zedd, I know you've been accused of misinterpreting what people write and for the most part I stand clear of such things - until it is directed at me. Where exactly in my comments would it allow you to suggest this? I am fully aware of the criticism directed at such organizations. Cripes, did I not read this piece? It's just that my thoughts are tempered by also being critical of the other side. I've been reading about them for years. Read carefully please. Do NOT be presumptuous.

The overall point I attempted to convey, and this is just my opinion, is that the countries receiving the funds need to clean up their act too. The bottom line is that it's the national governments of corrupt officials who keep their countries poor. That's what I meant by my poorly chosen "fed up" comment. We always focus on the rich but is this enough? That's one side of the equation - albeit a big one.

There is no doubt that the rich need to do is make it easier for the poor to join the rich ranks. For example, agricultural practices by the EU and US are not all that fair or justified when you look at Africa - who are caught in a spider's web and chicken before the egg type of conundrum.

You seem to oblivious to the important angle that once money is received the country needs to act responsibly and not pocket it. Mnay a corrupt dictator built nice little Chateau's with hand outs. That's it. Nothing more.

I think the main point of this is whether one believes the IMF or World Bank are filled with people who are truly trying to foster change or not.

Here's a question: how many countries have benefited from it? Study what they've done.

Well, at least you're better to converse with than Moonraven. :<)

And in soccer, yes, the Brits are not free of corruption. And if you alluded that I admire this then I know you completely misunderstand me. Too bad. I thought I've left enough comments 'round here for people to know that I am pretty darn mild-mannered and with a sence of fairness- and funny too...in my head. A tad irreverent but I like that.

You're funny in your head, Alessandro?

What is it? Something you were born with? Or did you suffer some sort of trauma? :>)

(sorry. couldn't resist)

Clavos, heh, heh.

What I find funny is not necessarily funny to others.

It's genetic. If you think Imus was crazy you should see the crap that comes out of our mouths. I'm waiting for the government to one day take us away.

We're very close to that. On one end they say there's the Bush/NWO/ police but on the other end there's the leftist PC thought police. Which probably means there's no conspiracy since they cancel each other out. It probably simply means we need to chill a little.

Normal folk are being squeezed!

Alessandro

Lets hope that you wont start condescending now that you know that I am a female. I am aware of the Latin machismo :o)

I didn't make myself clear earlier. I made an error when posting to Dave and I didn't feel compelled to correct it. My statement should have been that "how is it that I would NOT be familiar with corruption in the developing world?". I just got lazy and didn't bother to correct it. I also figured that Dave wouldn't care one way or another to be honest.

I understand that the corruption in these new countries is massive. My point is that there is no system of checks and balances within the country and because they are not accountable to anyone, and they have no economic alliances which are strong enough to force them to behave, it makes it difficult for them to maintain some integrity.

The paternalistic and also corrupt behavior of some of these organizations also foster an attitude that "everyone is doing it". With the deceptive benevolence practices of some of the West, these small players take it that corruption is the way of the world. Its buffoonish off course and it contributes to the endless economic suffering of their people.

Human beings will find a way to cheat if you let them. It's unfortunate. It's not a cultural, genetic or racial element. It's just that if there aren't enough incentives to maintain a fair and corruption "free" governance, chances are you will find corruption. Especially when you have people of different ethnic groups represented in one nation.

My point is that the corruption on its own is not the problem. Its the lack of deterrences.

I believe that it will take at least a hundred years for some of these countries to pull it together. I pray that South Africa does not go the way of most new governments. I am sure that there will be a major dip or decline but I hope that it wont be as bad as what has taken place in most of those nations. They have some wonderful programs to support entrepreneuralism, which should help.

On the Brits and corruption in sports. I was being "funny" yet serious. The Brits have a way of doing wrong and when they get caught they make it look like a school boy's prank. They are adorable and frightening in that way.

Alessandro and anyone else actually,

There's got to be another solution.

What would you propose.

I'm going to think about this.

Interesting topic. The org is little understood by the main street. But knowing its role is all important in a changing world. A far better book on current world politics and business is this: China and the new world order: how entrepreneurship, globalization, and borderless business are reshaping China and the world, by Chinese reporter george zhibin gu, which offers more timely analysis and insights on many key issues.

Chris,

The above (#21) commercial for that book has been appearing on these pages for several weeks now.

Propose about what?

As for the Latin thing, nah. Italian men are also being beaten down into submission - like all men. It's the womanification of man I call it. The day I saw my former partner come in with a manicure I knew we were all doomed as a gendered species. The don't make men like me anymore - cough.

Sigh. The greasers like The Fonz are dead.

Clavos, you have confused me. That comment is dated today and seems not entirely unrelated to the subject...

What I meant was I have same the same post, almost verbatim, on at least three different threads (or possibly more) in the past few weeks.

FWIW...

Should be have seen..

Thanks for the headsup, NailDude. I've seen two and am prepared to axe any more. Lack of url shows they are either sincere or a rank amateur though!

A sus ordenes, joven.

Vale, muchas gracias.

I loved the article by Mr Marcus, and I respect Zedd's opinions on such matters.