great read, and much to ponder

/golfclap

those interested in speculative fiction on the topic might enjoy Revolt in 2100 by Heinlein which covers what could happen when the U.S. is indeed a theocracy.

Check your facts. PFAW is most definitely not advocating for theocracy.

And don't forget that the vast institutional wealth and property controlled by some of these wolves in sheep's clothing is tax-exempt, even though they are clearly involved in political fund-raising, endorsements and campaigning.

Some will argue that Christians have a democratic right to try to get laws passed they think are good for the country, and that seems fair until you consider that many really don't care if their goals and methods are constitutional or not; it's the end that matters, not the means, and the end is control.

I have known--and know--many fine church members who are great people. Most of their churches and preachers ignore scholarship and learning and stress faith above knowledge, information, facts or questions, effectively insuring an ignorant and easily led congregation--more control.

Interesting stuff, but I think you overestimate their influence - or perhaps your source material does. The Bush administration is certainly tainted, but not entirely subverted, and many of those who you list individually are pretty marginal characters who can only be though of as part of the lunatic fringe. How much influence Tim LaHaye, Kirk Cameron or Marvin Olasky have with anyone sane?

Now you need an accompanying article to examine the equally fanatical, dangerous and destructive factions on the left who want to do exactly the same thing as these theocrats to the country just in pursuit of a different agenda.

It's getting frustrating for those of us here in the rational middle.

Dave

Dave,
Hitler was a marginal character on the fringe, too--until he wasn't.

True enough, Lee. But unless Kirk Cameron has a lot more to him than I ever saw on that annoying TV show, I don't see his followers staging a Putsch and taking over the GOP anytime soon.

Dave

It would seem that I don't really have a dog in this race. One of the reasons we left America was to get out of a Christian dominated culture (and thereby protect our sons from marrying out of the religion), and in that we have likely succeeded. But most of my family remains in the States.

I would ask readers to note who wrote these books. Michelle Goldberg and Rabbi James Rudin. Both are relatively secular American Jews who sense the real threat a re-Christianized society would present to them. According to a Publishers Weekly Review of the book The Rise of Christian Nationalism in Amazon.com, "Goldberg makes no attempt to hide her own partisanship, calling herself a 'secular Jew and ardent urbanite' who wrote the book because she 'was terrified by America's increasing hostility to... cosmopolitan values.'"

It should be noted that the "cosmopolitanism" was one of the traits that was always held against Jews by totalitarian dictatorships in Europe.

American Jews, particularly the less religious ones, have attempted to move American society away from the Biblical values that it was based on, because to them "Biblical values" in American society usually mean Christian Biblical values. I ought to know - I was once one of them.

So amongst the books critics, and there will be many of them, there will those who will likely point to another "Jewish" conspiracy to ruin America. We are unlikely to see that at Blog Critics Magazine, because of its heavily secular orientation, but this accusation may well be seen elsewhere.

The solution of the problem for Jews is come home, to leave America and its Christian culture behind, and leave the remaining Americans, however they orient themselves religiously, to deal with the challenge of Islam alone.

But the lure of the money in America is just too strong, and the desire to partake in Jewish destiny just too weak.

Ruvy...you miss the point that many Jews in America consider themselves Americans,and like it that way.

I understand your Messianic desire to "call Jews home", but to many ...this IS Home, and worth fighting for.

Jaz,

Not so. I'm very well aware of the way American Jews think. Just because I chose to think differently because facts showed me a better path, does not mean I do not well understand the path that I used to walk myself, or that my mother walked. There are quite a number of veterans in my family, of WWII, Korea and of Vietnam. I'm no stranger to American patriotism and belief in the American dream.

I could write several paragraphs on why American Jews tend to the secular side of things when questions of religion in America are involved. A big issue in this was the historical desire to get away from the persecution of the Jewish business class in Eastern Europe and the rabbis who sided with the Jewish exploiters of the Jewish poor. It is no accident that for a very long time "orthodox" Judaism was a small and diminishing minority in the United States.

But, it is late in this part of the world, and I needs my beauty sleep lest the mirror crack when I wash my face in the morning...

I'm not that rich, and mirrors cost...

I get the point, Ruvy...but even the Orthodox rabbi i knew in my younger days liked being an American, and had no desire to leave, his thinking was that there was too0 much to do for him here.

A factor you are aware of , but don't appear to take in, is that after a generation or two, people no longer think of themselves as [insert country of origin here] Jews...but as Americans who happen to be Jewish.

no worries...and you take care, Ruvy

To Noname,

Sorry for the inclusion of the PFAW in the above list. It was one I meant to exclude but forgot. The PFAW was actually cited as one of the few organizations OPPOSING the theocratic movement.

To Dave,

Ah, but sanity doesn't seem to be necessary. As to over-estimating the influence of any or all of these groups and individuals; when taken collectively, they form a fairly formidable bunch. They are chipping away at a variety of angles.

It is easy to assume with the Democratic surge in the last election, that the threat posed by the dominionists is gone. It may have waned a bit, but they have demonstrated great resilience that among other things got them through and even effectively fed on the Clinton years.

Left wing crazies? No doubt they're out there. Do you know some specific books or articles available which reveal who they are and what would be the specifics of their agenda?

To Ruvy,

I know that Goldberg identified herself as much more of a secular or "cultural" Jew, but Rudin has long been an active member of the faith. He certainly is not Orthodox, but neither would I call him secular.

It is disturbing to note that there are some Jews who have aligned themselves with the Christian right in the effort to bring about a religious theocracy in the US. Go figure.

Ah, but sanity doesn't seem to be necessary. As to over-estimating the influence of any or all of these groups and individuals; when taken collectively, they form a fairly formidable bunch. They are chipping away at a variety of angles.

But doesn't the membership of most of these groups overlap considerably? It's always been my impression that they are a small, but very vocal and active group, creating the impression that they are more numerous than they really are, and perhaps making them influential out of proportion to their numbers.

It is easy to assume with the Democratic surge in the last election, that the threat posed by the dominionists is gone. It may have waned a bit, but they have demonstrated great resilience that among other things got them through and even effectively fed on the Clinton years.

IMO they have to be dealt with first as a threat to the Republican Party. If they can be checked there, then their threat on a nationwide basis is minimized unless they form their own political party, which I think ought to be both their goal and the goal of the rest of us as well. Put them out there, honestly standing for what they believe in and draped in their own colors and let's see how they do in local and national elections. I think it's reasonable for them to control 20% of the seats in Congress and other bodies - enough to give them a fair voice. But so long as they masquerade as Republicans they can get away with too much and weild more power than they should by subverting more mainstream, but mercenary politicians.

Left wing crazies? No doubt they're out there. Do you know some specific books or articles available which reveal who they are and what would be the specifics of their agenda?

Well, you could start with anything written by Noam Chomsky, but that wouldn't be equivalent to what you wrote on in this article, because it's from within the movement.

Here are some possible titles from outside critics:

Why the Left Hates America: Exposing the Lies That Have Obscured Our Nation's Greatness by Daniel J. Flynn

The Vast Left Wing Conspiracy: The Untold Story of the Democrats' Desperate Fight to Reclaim Power by Byron York

This one is a bit conspiracy nutty:
The Making of a Police State: The Socialist Agenda for America by Steve Lawrence

This one is coming out next month and ought to be a pretty definitive work on the subject:
The Shadow Party: How George Soros, Hillary Clinton, and Sixties Radicals Seized Control of the Democratic Party (Paperback)
by David Horowitz

Looking over the selection, it occurs to me that there's room for more writing on ths subject unless the new Horowitz book redefines everything. The problem with the American left is easy to see, but perhaps it's so obvious that it isn't getting written about as much as the theocratic right.

Dave

Dave,

"But doesn't the membership of most of these groups overlap considerably? It's always been my impression that they are a small, but very vocal and active group, creating the impression that they are more numerous than they really are, and perhaps making them influential out of proportion to their numbers."

There may be in fact a good deal of "overlapping" and their numbers may be relatively small. But the key here is their being "influential out of proportion to their numbers," isn't it?

I think they would be too smart to venture out on their own as, say a dominionist party. It would certainly be fairer in the sense that you suggest - let all of us see their true colors - let us all hear their message loud and clear. If the majority of voters in this country fall in line with them, so be it. (I would probably join my son in Europe should that happen, though.)I just don't believe they would take such a chance.

As to your reading suggestions: I'll take a look at some of them. I have not been able to swallow much of Chomsky's work. Upon seeing the suggested titles, I actually was aware of the Flynn and York works, but haven't read them.

Just judging from those and the other titles, it seems to me that their take on the Left is rather over-stated as well. They suggest a monolithic effort that I'm not sure Democrats are capable of.

I assume that author, Steve Lawrence is NOT the lesser half of Edie Gorme'.

Remember too, that excising the religious radicals from the GOP could be difficult. They were, afterall wooed into the fold by Carl Rove and his lackeys. Pushing them out could be seen as disingenuous at best. Who knows, the christians just might pull off a coup and kick out the neocons. Stranger things have happened.

PS - Sorry, I'm not computer savvy enough to know how to put my drag and drop quote from your comment into italics.

Baritone,

Italics: <>your text<>

Insert the letter i in the first set of brackets, and /i in the second set. The second set is very important; it stops the italics, otherwise they will carry through into the rest of your comment, and on into succeeding comments as well.

Using the same layout, instead of the i you can use b for bold, u for underline, and s for strikethrough.

Here's a full tutorial on all these "tags," as they are called.

Thanks Clavos.

Let' see, if far right lunatics take over I won't be able to hear shit, damn, and hell on public TV or divorce my wife and marry a man. If the far left nuts take over they'll take away a large percentage of my wealth and tax thousands of extra dollars away from me every year tell me what to eat, what to drive, even down to what lightbulbs are legal to use. Who's more dangerous again?

BTW, I'd put the lack of focus on hard science in education more on the backs of liberals. Complex scientific principle and logic are difficult for some so they expand the definition of intelligence and the curriculum to try and make everyone successful at education, a silly goal in my opinion. If everyone graduates high school then a diploma is essentially meaningless, ditto for college. The goal should be to prepare each individual for life and the workplace to their potential, not to get everyone an inflated piece of paper.

Your first paragraph is dead on, Doug. The extreme left and extreme right are BOTH wrong on a purely theoretical basis, but when it comes down to who is likely to fuck up our individual lives more seriously, for a much larger number of us the extreme left is the bigger problem. So you and I swallow our repulsion and put up with the extreme right just to keep the extreme left off our backs and out of our wallets.

Dave

"at least the trains run on time"

There may be in fact a good deal of "overlapping" and their numbers may be relatively small. But the key here is their being "influential out of proportion to their numbers," isn't it?

Yes indeedy.

I think they would be too smart to venture out on their own as, say a dominionist party.

Some of them already have in the 'Constitution Party', and if the GOP nominates Giuliani as seems quite likely, how will they be able to put up with him?

It would certainly be fairer in the sense that you suggest - let all of us see their true colors - let us all hear their message loud and clear. If the majority of voters in this country fall in line with them, so be it. (I would probably join my son in Europe should that happen, though.)I just don't believe they would take such a chance.

You'd have to climb over me to get on the plane, though I'm leaning toward New Zealand. But I do think they're arrogant and self-righteous enough to strike out on their own if the GOP developed the balls to show them the door.

As to your reading suggestions: I'll take a look at some of them. I have not been able to swallow much of Chomsky's work.

Chomsky makes me want to hit someone or something and throw up at the same time.

Just judging from those and the other titles, it seems to me that their take on the Left is rather over-stated as well. They suggest a monolithic effort that I'm not sure Democrats are capable of.

Well, of course they overstate their case, but there's also some substance to it, especially when you look at the role of internationalists in trying to take away US sovereignty and give it to the UN or other international bodies.

I assume that author, Steve Lawrence is NOT the lesser half of Edie Gorme'.

A pretty safe bet.

Remember too, that excising the religious radicals from the GOP could be difficult. They were, afterall wooed into the fold by Carl Rove and his lackeys. Pushing them out could be seen as disingenuous at best. Who knows, the christians just might pull off a coup and kick out the neocons. Stranger things have happened.

We could purge Rove, the Neocons and any other Stalinist types who've wandered into the party at the same time. Both the Theocrats and the Neocons used to be Democrats and thought they could make allies in the GOP. It's about time to show them they were wrong.

Dave

Hey Doug,

You pretty well nailed it. That's the extent of it. I don't know why anyone would be concerned about it. Shucks, I'm alarmed that someone would write shit, hell and damn right here in front of god and everybody on the internet. God's an inveterate blogger, after all.

And scientists will all be set straight when they learn all the true facts about intelligent design.

Of course the left wing nuts will tax us all into the ground. Somebody's got to pay for the billions of dollars spent in Iraq. You see the Dems may tax and spend, but Bush & Company just spends without the benefit of taxes. Something called deficit spending I think.

Do you really think that living under strict biblical law would be any different than living under Islamic law? It would be the same except maybe for the burkas. But, who knows? They could work them in over time. Great fashion statement.

Oh, if you decide to get a divorce from your wife, you won't have to marry a man. You could probably just go steady.

Just to add a book to Dave's list, try The Professors by David Horowitz. Most, but not all academics he covers are right there on the fringe, educating students in some of our top universities. Having spent quite a stint in the Ivory Tower, I can tell you he is on the right track, more or less.

I agree with Dave that you are giving these people a little too much credit. As a member of a group these people love to hate, I am suspicious, but as yet see no particular cause to be alarmed, especially since the continuing fall of the Bush administration.

BTW, agree with Romney or not, you can perhaps see some of these people at work when it comes to him.

I tried to stay away from recommending Horowitz' books on academia because they're too limited to be a fair comparison.

As for Romney, yes the religious right seems to like him What that is I can't begin to figure out since he's not particularly conservative and only even Christian in the most generous definition of the word.

I think maybe they see Romney as someone like Bush who is so desperate to be President that he'll make a deal with the devil.

Dave

Dave,

If you purge the GOP of the fundamentalists AND the neocons, who remains? Just a bunch of unassuming, mild mannered middle of the roaders? After all, the neocons aren't really anything new. They have been lining up with republicans since Ike ran the store.

I have just the opposite view. I can put up with some of the leftist loonies to keep the right wing assholes out of my bedroom.

I think the ship has sailed on whether the theocrats and neocons can find allies in the GOP. I'd say they pulled it off in spades. The question now is just who is pulling whose strings amongst the mish mash that is now the Republican party? They are in danger of becoming less monolithic than the Dems, and that's saying something.

I know why you are leaning toward an escape to New Zealand. You want to settle down in Hobbiton, don't you? Just as a warning, though. The last I heard, Sam Samwise Gamgee had set himself up selling time shares in a string of Hobbit holes. He's made millions. Real estate has gone through the thatched roofs.

My thoughts on going to Europe are centered more on food than politics. Vienna, Tuscany, the south of France. Whooo doogies. That's some good eatin'.

Dave,

I was actually thinking of those like the guy who confronted him last week, calling him a liar who does not know God because he was a Mormon, but I guess you are entitled to your view.

If you purge the GOP of the fundamentalists AND the neocons, who remains? Just a bunch of unassuming, mild mannered middle of the roaders? After all, the neocons aren't really anything new. They have been lining up with republicans since Ike ran the store.

The actual neocons are tiny in number. I'm not talking about the large number of pro-defense Warhawks in the GOP. I've got no problem with them. I'm talking about the small number of straussian/stalinist take-over-the-world lunatics. We could lose them and never even notice it.

I have just the opposite view. I can put up with some of the leftist loonies to keep the right wing assholes out of my bedroom.

Ah, but I'm not doing anything they'd object to in my bedroom, while I am attempting to make money to support my family, which the left finds endlessly offensive of me.

I think the ship has sailed on whether the theocrats and neocons can find allies in the GOP. I'd say they pulled it off in spades. The question now is just who is pulling whose strings amongst the mish mash that is now the Republican party? They are in danger of becoming less monolithic than the Dems, and that's saying something.

Yes, they pulled it off for about a decade, but now I see a lot of people in the GOP questioning whether the deals they made with the religious right were really a good idea.

My thoughts on going to Europe are centered more on food than politics. Vienna, Tuscany, the south of France. Whooo doogies. That's some good eatin'.

I do love the fine dining. Maybe at the same time that America becomes a socialist paradise the Europeans will start to see sense and go the other direction, following Ireland and Estonia and a few of the more imaginative countries over there.

Dave

Baritone,

you wrote:

"I know that Goldberg identified herself as much more of a secular or "cultural" Jew, but Rudin has long been an active member of the faith. He certainly is not Orthodox, but neither would I call him secular.

It is disturbing to note that there are some Jews who have aligned themselves with the Christian right in the effort to bring about a religious theocracy in the US. Go figure."


So you understand where I am coming from here. Present company are excluded from this divvying up, of course. We're holding a civil conversation, and I'm not judging my fellow Jews here. I'm merely explaining how I view the world...

There are thirteen basic tenets of Judaism that the Ramba"m (Maimonides) laid out about a thousand years ago. Either you believe them and try to behave accordingly, or you don't. If you believe them, and try to behave accordingly, you are a "believer" - like me. If you don't, you are secular. This is not judgment so much as it is a way of dividing the pack so that people who perform the rituals of "orthodox" Judaism but who act with hatred and deceipt towards other Jews, like my landlord, don't make the cut of "believer".

If you ask the good Rabbi if he honestly believes in the coming of the messiah and the raising of the dead - an acid test of "belief" in the modern world - I'm willing to bet that he will equivocate somehow. Hence, in spite of his title "rabbi", I view the gentleman as secular.

Those Jews in America who side with the Christian theocrats in trying to re-impose Biblical values are confident enough in their ability to hold on to their flock in exile. They are usually "orthodox." But they pray three times a day for the kibbútz galuyót, the ingathering of the exiles - from America, too. Monsey is not Jerusalem (take note, Gonzo). GIVEN that there is a State where they can settle, settling their flocks here should be their first priority, and playing footsie with the Christian right should be their last emergency tactic.

Here in Ohio- going steady is all you can do. And I'm sure they are working on a way to make that illegal too.

I think, Dave, the Right has more of these biddable loonies than you imagine, if only because the mega-churches can be counted as part of, & a source of recruiting for, supporters of far-right, neocon/christian supremicists. Consider all those little old church ladies & half-senile American Legion vets who can be counted on to marshall for BushCo; All those eager young people who have been brainwashed since kindergarten in places like Jesus Camp & their church-run private schools to be zealots for christ; all their parents who are gullible, patriotic, & confuse the person with the position, thereby thinking a scumbag like Bush is actually a semi-diety whom God speaks to & inspires directly. Don't laugh: they really do think that. Dubya does, himself. And there are lots of them. Lots & lots. All being assured by their leaders that Faith is essential, and those that Don't Believe are damned and The Enemy. Do you know how many people succumb just because of societal pressure? I'm tempted to, often, myself, just to assume protective coloration, & I'm no coward or dupe.

Clavos, friend, buddy - THANK YOU!!!! Thank you for the directions on how to do these things; I'd asked before, but no one ever came up with either instructions or a reference to go to. Now I can be semi-blog-literate like some of the rest of you. ;)

I really needed a good laugh this morning. Thanks.
Is there a full moon out or something?

Nancy,

You're welcome. Just giving back a little. When I was a newbie on BC, Q Bit, whom I haven't seen in a long time, was kind enough to teach me a little and steer me to the right place to learn more.

Well, thanks again & again, Clavvie old bean; I just used it successfully on the new Obama thread & it WORKED! You're a peach.

As for giving Dave a laugh, happy to oblige.

Pay it forward when the time comes...

I just viewed the Jesus Camp movie a few nights ago. That's scary stuff. It is brainwashing in its purest form. Taking these young, unformed and totally impressionable minds and blasting them with evangelical christianity all hours of the day and night is effectively stealing their childhood. When anyone takes 8, 9 and 10 year old kids filling them with guilt and angst, forcing them to cry in shame at their supposed sinful inadequacies is tantamount to abuse.

If Julia Scheeres' account of her stay at the religious camp in the Dominican Republic in her book Jesus Land is accurate, which I believe it is, you can add physical and sexual abuse as well.

Many of these kids will be tomorrow's theocrats. This is far from a dead issue. While it's convenient to dismiss them as fringe crazies, it is not wise to believe that they pose no threat to this little republic we live in.

I remember how Americans generally looked upon the return of the Ayatollah Khamenei to Iran back in the late 1970s as a remote and essentially meaningless event as far as we were concerned. But then, lo and behold, we have American hostages being held for over a year under the control of his regime.

One can easily sit back in derision and scoff at anyone who appears to be crying wolf. I know it's often difficult to sort out the real threats from the chaff, as it were, but again, those who are striving for an American theocracy are smart, determined, well placed and well financed. Again, their efforts go back as far as the writing of the Constitution. They are relentless.

The only way this effort will die is if religion dies. I don't think that will happen anytime soon, though a guy can dream.

the News is that Captain America is Dead.

a bit of me appears to have passed away today

1966, a dyslexic young lad uses a bit of change from a trip to the store and buys a comic book...this Incident, and the subsequent library card opened up the worlds of Literature, Myth, Learning and Inspiration

Steve Rogers aka Captain America was a scrawny art student at the outbreak of WW2 , tapped for the experimental Super Soldier project, he became the only successful product. The creator of the process, killed by a spy just after the Metamorphosis...the Secret going with him, the spy the first to be brought down by the man who was to become....Captain America.

Fighting and winning the War (not all by himself mind you), Cap was on ice until Stan Lee had the Avengers find his frozen self after Namor tossed the chunk of ice into the ocean...the two having known each other in the War (yep, the Sub-Mariner is that old)

Through the sixties, seventies and eighties...Cap presented a dual Mirror of American society, the Ideal embodied by the Symbol...made Real by the commitment of the Man bearing that indestructible Shield... the Day to Day mundania of what was "happening" in the times viewed through the eyes of that Art student displaced in Time.

I stopped collecting comics in '92...a ton of boxes(30something long boxes) in my attic the tiny fractional remainder of that endeavor, but every bit of our uniquely American living Mythology remains ingrained indelibly in the hinterlands of my Psyche where a young boy learns gung fu and reads...and really wants that Shield...

I can't think of any better Homage to honor this Icon than a line from the Living Myth of comics...."I am Thor, Son of Odin and God of Thunder. I bend my knee to no one, but this Man would I follow into the very depths of Hell. Any who wouldst question shall answer to me."

i don't have the Issue that hit the stands yesterday, i found out about it online...i have no idea of the plot or whatever..all i know is that he was shot, in handcuffs ...on trial for failure to comply with the government wanting him to reveal himself...to "register"..the Metaphor clear in this day of terror and the "PATRIOT" act...Cap protesting against government violations of the Constitution...always the Ideal made manifest.

but i Know, that in the Fabric of the Myth...the Symbol of the Greatest Generation died yesterday

nuff said...


When a Leader speaks, that Leader dies.

Excelsior?

Everything you say is bunk. The history of the prosecution of blasphemy in the United States following 1789 completely disproves your Leftist mythology.

Quoting the 1824 Pennsylvania Supreme Court decision Updegraph v. Commonwealth:

"This is the Christianity of the common law, incorporated into the great law of Pennsylvania, and thus, it is irrefragably proved, that the laws and institutions of this state are built on the foundation of reverence for Christianity. Here was complete liberty of conscience, with the exception of disqualification for office of all who did not profess faith in Jesus Christ. This disqualification was not contained in the constitution of 1776; the door was open to any believer in a God, and so it continued under our present constitution, with the necessary addition of a belief in a future state of rewards and punishments. On this the constitution of the United States has made no alteration, nor in the great body of the laws which was an incorporation of the common law doctrine of Christianity, as suited to the condition of the colony, and without which no free government can long exist. Under the constitution, penalties against cursing and swearing have been exacted. If Christianity was abolished, all false oaths, all tests by oath in the common form by the book, would cease to be indictable as perjury. The indictment must state the oath to be on the holy Evangelists of Almighty God. The accused on his trial might argue that the book by which he was sworn, so far from being holy writ, was a pack of lies, containing as little truth as Robinson Crusoe. And is every jury in the box to decide as a fact whether the Scriptures are of divine origin?"