Interesting. So what would you propose: that everyone who happens to be black pass a 'jive' test? It would seem to me that blacks are equal when they feel free to be who they want to be, not how others think they SHOULD be. Not all blacks were born in the urban ghetto; some of them are 2nd- & 3rd-generation suburbanites & yuppies these days. Requiring them to be "black" whatever that is) would be as alien to them as it would be for me, because it isn't the culture they've grown up in or around. Like all their neighbors they've grown up with Sesame Street & the rest of the current general American cultural stuff. The kid upstairs & his parents wouldn't know what to do with chitlins, if they even brought them into the house to begin with. They're happier with Chinese & pizza. They're very mainline; why force them to be someone they aren't?

God knows I'm no fan of anyone in BushCo, but if Condi Rice likes playing classical piano, let her. Her adverse character traits have nothing to do with her race, & everything to do with the general lack of ethics that characterizes anyone connected with Dubya & Cheney, who happily employ scumbags of any color or creed.

I agree there's still a lot of hidden privileges out there that whites - and particularly white males - are so accustomed to they aren't even aware of them. However, in my experience, most discrimination is less to do with perceived color than it is to do with perceived wealth &/or social status. Some years ago when I was grossly obese, I wandered into
BTW - I'd like to know what you do define "black" as, culturally? I'd like to hear from Zedd, Maurice, & others on this site who happen to be black. What do you all consider to be "black"?

This may be the most egregiously racist thing izlve read in months. Truly sick.

Sorry about that: hit the wrong damned button.

*ahem* As I was saying, some years ago I wandered into a Nieman Marcus. Not being dressed in designer duds, and worse - being fat - I was watched like a hawk by every salesperson (& I suspect, store detective) in the area. Finally I went over to the designer dresses dept. with my friend & we started fondling the dresses. Immediately a sales assistant appeared & removed our filthy proletariat hands from the nice clean dresses some good rich person would be wearing, & "offered" in the most unctious & oily way, to "help" us - not. We were discouraged from looking, & postively refused the opportunity to try any on, even tho my friend explained she was going to a theatre opening at the Kennedy Center. We were helpfully steered to a lesser store more in our socioeconomic level, as the N-M people perceived it, with assurances we couldn't possibly afford (or fit into) any of THESE dresses - even tho my friend is a size 6. In short, we were treated like dirt. When I related this experience to a black office mate later, she was astonished that they'd do that to a white person - but the answer was simple: it wasn't race, it was size & perceived status that really count. I've found I get very different treatment when I dress 'normally' as opposed to the rare occasions I carry my Mercedes key ring & (3rd-hand) Gucci purse.

Sorry about that; damned computer cut me off.

Sorry about that; damned computer cut me off. And then I got a 'rejected - SPAM' message. Oh well. Anyway, I'd be interested to know what your proposed guidelines for blackness are, Heloise.

Heloise

I strongly disagree. Blackness can not possibly be defined by the urban experience. Like all people we are varied. What you suggest is the most self destructive notion imaginable. You do realise that we have been pigeon holed for centuries and have fought to shed ourselves of those stereotypical tags.

The urban experience is relatively new for most Americans let alone African Americans. Fifty years ago we were in rural areas. Here in Dallas, most AAs 55+ grew up in East Texas picking cotton. Your urban litmus test is displaced and unthought through.

African Americans need what everyone else needs. Because Whites have imposed their foolish ideas on to us doesn't mean that WE ARE DIFFERENT. The best way for US to move beyond our current situation is to assume that this is our world. Every bit of it. We are world citizens. We belong everywhere and we are the heirs of this entire globe. Yes we were bullied and abuses beyond any people on the globe (AAs more than any other Blacks) but it is they who were sick and limited in their thinking and in many cases still are.

Shed yourself of the shackles and confinements of our legacy. We can live in Fiji, Albania, or Compton and still understand what WE need. We need what all people need, respect and opportunity.

Heloise, I don't want to have a representative that is limited in their scope because of their upbringing. I don't care where someone is born or where they grew up, I want them to roll up their sleeves and get some work done. I don't want a BLACK President. I would however love a good President who happens to be Black.

You mistake a civil rights activist with being Black. I don't want an activist for President. I want someone who is Presidential.

As for Condi, it doesn't look as if you've read up on how she and Powell did try to influence the administration on the war. Heloise, she is an employee. You go to work every day and do things that you don't necessarily want to do but you carry them out, hopefully well. She has done a phenomenal job at HER JOB.

Your comments seem a bit immature and unmeasured.

Catholics of all classes were staunchly behind that senator.

Wrong. Catholics did not then and do not now vote as a religious bloc. Catholics can't even agree about the precepts of their own religion.

Your implication is that Catholics are sheep.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

Hey Nancy,
Thanks for sharing :)

I forgot that John McWhorter wrote a book about it. He's conservative, black, well educated, and part of a think tank. The book is "Authentically Black."

We have a similar background. He has a Ph.D. in linguistics. And I think you would like the way he addresses this issue.

My point: It IS, I repeat, IT IS a valid point, question, and fodder for discussion.

Heloise

Zedd: 'I don't want a Black president; I would love a good president who happens to be black.'

AMEN to that-!!!

I'm reminded here of my college roomie, who was 5th generation American-Chinese. She couldn't speak the language any more than I could, and furthermore, loathed most Chinese food. Yet whenever I got some delivered, they'd always hand it to her. And she had the broadest Bah-stin (Boston) accent you could imagine. It was pretty funny at the same time it was rather an interesting take on perceptions.

Nancy,

Did you hear about what happened to Oprah in Paris? When she tried to go to Hermes after hours? She was mad as hell.

Listen, unless I am dressed to the teeth I don't even go into perceived higher-end stores. I've been to Tiffany & Co. to exchange something my son bought me. And guess what? It was filled with blacks, bougie, naturally. They have good taste.

And since Tiffany is used to seeing blacks in large numbers in their upscale store, it's no biggie to them. So size and numbers do matter.

I know what you mean about the fat tip. I am, used to always be a six 6, little larger now, but there is much discrimination. Heard people are not liking what Eddie is doing with his fat woman suit. He could loose the Academy Award, which I predict he will win, over it. You think?

Heloise

Heloise

Oh, I don't argue that it isn't; I just get to wondering who should define who is "black"? Why should 'black' be only one thing? After all, there are WASP whites, Italian whites, Irish whites, redneck whites ... and all of them are different, some of them radically so. I grew up in a typically repressed WASP yankee farmer family. My best high school friend came from a big, noisy, gesticulating Italian gang. My best adult friend comes from a southern mountain, bible-thumping, born-again, big hair & accents as thick as molasses backwoods clan. I fit into their cultural backgrounds about as well as a square peg fits into a round hole, but we're all 'white'. So, who's whiter? So...why should urban blacks be 'blacker' than someone like Condi Rice or Colin Powell?

I know you say you're JFK in a former life, but what about this one? How was it growing up black, & in what background? Were you inner-city, or elsewhere?

It just strikes me as strange, because my upstairs neighbor, Vernon, is a Frenchman who happens to be black. I can imagine if I told him he had to be more jive to qualify! Merde! ;)

Nancy

I don't define Blackness. How do you define Whiteness? Its weird.

I go to a 75% Black church (15% White, 8% Hispanic and 2% Asian). There are Blacks there who it takes you a while to figure out that they are Black, but they consider themselves to be Black and so they are. There are Hispanics who I would call Black but they don't call themselves Black so they are not.

As you have said many times and I have always believed that, race is a construct. There is no such things as race. I was born in South Africa, while you will catch a British accent ever so often, especially when I am appalled, I speak like a "yank" and can certainly speak in the Black vernacular and have a respect for it as well. but in the country of by birth, there are several races within the Africans according to those who label races. Yes believe it or not, Africans are different races and I don't mean the Whites or other people who have come from else where. I mean Africans. Its silly. A significant portion of us are mixed also. Whites tried to make distinctions because of those factors and give access to things based on what Black you were. Its all silly.

Racial distinctions were established when people needed a reason to mistreat others. Africans and other native people would have their skulls measured, and various features measured and documented. The nations or tribes that had traits that were closest to Whites would be thought to be superior to those that had the most different traits (I know..... nervy). That is what caused the problems in Rwanda.

African Americans were stuck here with all of the negative ideas about who they were, not having the commonality of language and culture in most cases because they came from all over the continent and being under constant supervision, they ended up internalizing a lot of the ideas of what is sufficient or good or meaningful regarding race, hence Heloises obsession with noses :o) But in order to heal, many over compensated and redefined Blackness by the simple experiences that they also encountered. They had dealt with the uncle tom and wanted to draw a line in the sand (rightfully so). But in today's climate those distinctions don't fit. Not only do they not fit, they are destructive. It becomes a self imprisonment.

I heard about the Oprah incident, but I also wondered (not being used to that sort of privilege myself) who in their right mind tries to get into a store after hours. I'm sure if she'd called first, they would have been thrilled to keep it open just for her; money is money, after all. I'm sure if she'd been in there when they closed, they would have let her stay & shop as long as she wanted, like any other spoiled celeb.

A lot of people I'm not even aware are black, like the new Gov. of Massachusetts. I thought he was Irish, because of his good Jewish name ;) When I found out he was black, it was like, -- so? Of course, shortly thereafter I saw a photo of him & my next reaction was, "he's CUTE-!" Cute guys after all come in all colors of the rainbow, which is nice for those of us who are guy-watchers.

Yeah, I am going to Boston for spring break to get the material I need to write a book. He is from guess where? My home town, Chicago. He grew up in the projects. We used to call them the project N's...sorry about that, but we did.

Blacks have their own brand of classism. We were the Ivy southsiders and they were the westside gousters--wore polyester when it was not cool to do so.

Where are you from?

Heloise

Zedd wrote: The urban experience is relatively new for most Americans let alone African Americans. Fifty years ago we were in rural areas. Here in Dallas, most AAs 55+ grew up in East Texas picking cotton. Your urban litmus test is displaced and unthought through.


Zedd your comment is extremely insightful. I talk about this exact thing in my book. That a group must learn urbanization. It is not a given. This is really why Jewish people are above the learning curve on many other groups, education-wise and assets-wise. Yes, living in the city, living in this country is something that must be learned. It is part of my "laws of rebirth."

Heloise

Nancy wrote: I know you say you're JFK in a former life, but what about this one? How was it growing up black, & in what background? Were you inner-city, or elsewhere?

Believe me I had no idea I was black! Can you believe that? I used to ask my family if we were black and they said yes we were. I was confused because of the way that most of my relatives and siblings looked. They did not so much look white, but they did not look black. Looked Mediterranean.

We grew up as black middle class in CHicago. Always went to private school, dad drove a caddy, had a farm in Michigan and never knew hunger or want for anything. If my dad had been more wise with his money I would be independently wealthy right now. Working on it though. My neighborhood, my house has the number 109 on it, has just struck natural gas. My area may be the richest though.

Heloise

Clavos: Catholics of all classes were staunchly behind that senator.

Wrong. Catholics did not then and do not now vote as a religious bloc. Catholics can't even agree about the precepts of their own religion.

Your implication is that Catholics are sheep.

Clavos you are putting words in my mouth. I did research for my book on Thomas Merton. That meant seeing how the Catholic church and other Catholics felt about JFK.

I was really surprised believe me. Their love and backing of him was something I had never really considered until I read it in black and white.

I think I am right on this one.

Heloise

I don't measure whiteness, or anything else, either. No, I lie: I do measure redneckiness; i.e. the degree of perceived cultural tackiness, but I've met black rednecks & hispanic rednecks as well as white ones, so it's more a cultural measure than a racial one. Like I said, my neighbor is French. His primary self-identification is French, not black. IMO, there is no such thing as 'black' or 'white' anyway, since we ALL stem from one common African ancestor, which makes us ALL African, to one degree or another...unless it turns out we all stem from some as-yet-undiscovered Chinese ancestor, in which case we're all Chinese. That you would speak with a Brit accent surprises me not at all; after all, I've watched numerous British TV shows featuring black characters with the richest lovely English accents ... sorry, BRITISH accents. My college roomie & her parents & her grandparents all had Boston accents you could cut with a knife. A co-worker of mine who's East Indian had a Noo Yawk accent straight out of deepest Brooklyn - or the Bronx, I'm not sure what's where in NYC. In any event, it sure wasn't stereotypical asian/Indian/Pakistani. I talk like a southerner until I say "half" or "bath" or "car" & then it comes out "hahf", "baaaath", "caaah" & my New England origins are betrayed. Once in a great while I'll really slip & say, "a-yuh", or "down to Bah-stin" & I'm pegged by those in the know as a down-Mainer.

Point is, in general you can't peg anyone - even the rednecks. So how can anybody define who is 'black' & who isn't? Who's gonna tell Vernon he's not French but Black? Not me, that's fer sure.

I grew up on the northern New England coast; there, & my grandparents' NH farm. I never even saw a 'live' black person until I was well into my grade school years. When a black family moved into our neighborhood, they were so culturally identical to all the rest of us, no one turned a hair. Now, the Italian-American family from Boston who also moved in - THEY were quite different, & caused enormous stir with all of us, including our black neighbors. All of us were quiet, undemonstrative, etc. They were - well, loud, noisy, demonstrative, argumentative (oh, horror - out in PUBLIC, too! Unheard of!), talked with their hands, etc. AND they drank WINE at dinner-! We were all of us, black & white, quite agog. This was before wine got to be a more common thing like it is now. All us kids were always envious because they had cold lasagna & spaghetti for lunch or breakfast or snacks if they wanted it. We only got that kind of fare once in a blue moon - IF we were lucky. In any event, we all immediately took to trying to wangle invitations to eat over at the DiLuccis' all the time.

When white (or other non-Black) people see "Blackness," that is a bad thing, no? Leads to bigotry right, because they are seen as different.

And yet, Blacks should demand Blackness from black people who dare to think for themselves? Are they not human beings who should be respected no matter what their color?

Someone spare us this hypocrisy.

I dimly remember Mrs. DiLucci telling my mother that their priest told them all they had to vote for Kennedy if they truly considered themselves good Catholics - AND if they wanted to continue to get communion from HIM. I don't remember if he was Irish or what (the priest), but from the comment, I suspect he was. I also remember my friend telling me Father had said that when each of them came to confession, he was going to ask who they voted for & excommunicate the ones who hadn't supported Kennedy, but I suspect the good Father was probably joking, altho at the time I wasn't old enough to tell. Maybe not.

Funny,

I find that Europeans are kinda different from other people. This is why we were so different. We were culturally European. I did not find this out or know this until I lived in Paris. DId not go to Hermes however.

Europeans, especially Italian who are Mediterranean are out of control, true. WE had the mix of being culturally black and European at the same time.

Nancy did you read the N word article? I am mad as hell about her comments how blacks don't pool their money. I wrote a couple of comments too.

My paternal uncle had the largest wrecking yard in the midwest. It was a huge property with wrecked cars that folks came from five states around to find parts for their cars. His sons worked for him, and his brothers helped out too sometimes. Not sure how it was financed, but she writes as if blacks don't even have businesses!!

We can't let her get away with that. I don't mind Jews writing about blacks, I mean they have written a million books about us, but she should have been more careful about saying THAT.

BTW: my uncle's names were--no kidding: Bobby, Ted, and Jack (my dad's real name). They about the same age as the Kennedys so did not know about them when they were named.


Heloise

Blogcritics writer Jonathan Scanlan, an Australian, wrote an interesting comment recently about Australians' seeming colour-blindness in the modern era.

His contention, and one that has been studied in Australia, is that the White Australia Policy, a piece of immigration policy that once allowed only white people to migrate - and I mean pretty much those of northern European background - meant that white people did the menial work and there was no pool of cheap labour consigned to any one or two racial minorities.

Paradoxically, this has meant that in subsequent years, especially post WWI and WWII when immigrants began to arrive from all over the world, there was still no pool of cheap labour confined to any minority group - and Australians of European background were still doing most of the low-paid work. Interestingly, the only requirement to be an Aussie and to be seen as an equal in the eyes of most Australians is the embracing of the culture.

The colour of a person's skin would certainly come second to whether or not they had an Australian accent. It's the way of speaking that is most noticeable and tends to mark you out, not your colour. Most of us couldn't give a rat's arse about it.

Perhaps it's also because many white people were also once the slaves in this country. There has been some dreadful racism aimed at indigenous Australians, notably by the well-off and the authorities in the distant past, but just being aboriginal in Australia is - if it's even noticeable in the big cities these days - is not in any way a disadvantage except in some remote country areas where the old attitudes hold sway.

I can speak about this with some authority as there is some aboriginal background in my own family. Discovering it was an occasion for joy, although I suspect the reason it had to be discovered way down the track was that it was once a cause of shame and had been swept under the carpet (not having direct convict background was a disappointment, however). And I agree with Clavos: Catholics can longer be counted on to vote as a bloc for any one party. What was once the case no longer holds sway. I assume it is exactly the same in the US as it is here - although many here naturally do gravitate towards the left, being of Irish background and all and having once suffered under the boot of British colonialism and the yoke of the Anglicanism/protestantism of the ruling classes.

Heloise

I love your "laws of rebirth". I think its something that we must all come face to face with.

In my early adult years, I was rather militant as many of us are in collage. I wouldn't even join a sorority because in the late 80's they were calling themselves Greeks :o) However that stage was a useful transition into adulthood as a Black person. I ate up all of the historical info and also got to understand the why's. I wish all of our kids did so. I am so comfortable in my place partially because of that experience. It also taught me that most extreme view points are based on emotion and group pressure. You end up committed to an idea not because it is relevant but because it is what you are supposed to believe. That is no way to address issues or solve problems and certainly not a way to improve society. I think that is the problem with the right wing right now or the Christian Conservatives, its a club.

We do need to be reborn. It's a brave new world. We need to take ownership of it, because its ours, all of it!!

Mark

You obviously don't know what is offensive to Black people.

How about asking questions instead of making really wrong dogmatic statements. You seem a little tense about race matters.

Clavos

Catholics were proud of Kennedy for being the first Irish Catholic candidate of the United States. It was a huge deal at the time.

Clarence Thomas - Sigh!!

What was that all about??? The whole thing is still cringe worthy. Everytime I look at him I get creeped out.

Anyone who expects another individual to conform to some preconceived racial stereotype is a racist by definition. Perhaps it is a pathological desire to maintain a sort of racial purity. Let's keep Black people Black and White people White. Anything else is too complicated for certain minds.

How about we don't look at people like Obama, Condi and Clarence as Blacks, but as people...succesful politicians. Blackness shouldn't matter.

AG

Zedd, re:#25

Well, I beseech thee to most humbly forgive my honky, cracker ass, Zedd -- but I thought black people had the right and the freedom to think as they like and to live a non-pigeonholed life.

That was my point.

Who says honky and craker any more? I haven't heard those terms since Archie Bunker and The Jeffersons? What do they mean anyway?

Heloise

What I find interesting is that Whites rarely ever live up to the image of Whiteness that is purported.

I find it funny that Whites chide African Americans for their grammar and diction when the majority of Whites do not speak well at all. From the Jersey accent to the Southern drawl, Valley Girls aren't speaking properly either. Its just a fantasy that Whites speak correctly. They don't. Heck go to England, many don't speak correct English.

What's truly racist is that the left considers the defining characteristic of blackness as being liberal and voting Democrat. As any good white American liberal will tell us...... if you're black and you're not a liberal who votes Dem..then guess what you're not really black!

It is the left who have kept blacks on the ideological plantation not the GOP. God forbid a black American decides to leave the plantation and vote Republican. Then they are subjected to an avalanche of insults and racial slurs from the so called "progressive" left.

Arch

Today's Blacks are less committed to one party. The one thing that is disheartening though is that many Republicans ARE racist.

Most Blacks are actually conservative but cant stomach the racist attitudes of many Republicans.

I would also change the notion that Blacks vote Democrat because White Liberals tell them to. You sort of implied that. Fix that. That demonstrates a White supremacist world view. Don't do that. First because it's delusional and second because its embarrassing (for you).

Anthony

I say we DO look at those people as Black. They ARE Black. Just because we have a history of evil against Blacks doesn't mean that we should now ignore who Black people are in order to feel good about ourselves (as a society). They are Black. Its a good thing. Its as if there Blackness is anegative. Its beautiful. They are Black civil servants.

I love being Black. I love my beautiful carmel complexion. I find it amazing that God created such color, ambers, browns and peaches all on me? Even as I age, I love my complexion. I feel so much gratitude for it. I love having Zulu blood, boy do I feel privaledged about that. I get to keep it no matter what. I love Black vernacular. I LOVE the way we speak. It expresses things that standard English cant. It has a depth and a groundedness that is unique and powerful. I feel grateful for it and knowing it.

Who says honky and craker any more?

I don't know about honky, but cracker is very much alive here in the South.

Cracker was originally a pejorative term for rural, lower class southern people, but since the massive in-migration of Yankee carpetbaggers to the South over the past 50 years, it has been co-opted by Southerners, particularly here in Florida, and is now used as a badge of pride by those who are native-born in the South.

Zedd,

The difference is that they can speak the King's English if they so choose. And whiteness, or white skin is the priviledge for them, not diction.

We have to be better, and still that is not good enough. Blacks must be able to code switch. Must be able to speak proper and relaxed forms of English.

Heloise

Zedd says:

"Today's Blacks are less committed to one party. The one thing that is disheartening though is that many Republicans ARE racist."

Yes there are racist Republicans. There are also racist Democrats. The Democrats have institutionalized and mainstreamed racism in their approach to politics.

"I would also change the notion that Blacks vote Democrat because White Liberals tell them to. You sort of implied that. Fix that. That demonstrates a White supremacist world view. Don't do that. First because it's delusional and second because its embarrassing (for you)."

I never implied anything as to why blacks vote the way they do. All I discussed was the way in which the white and black liberal guardians of the leftist establishment view black Americans.

I don't need some apologist for racist leftists such as yourself calling me a white supremacist and embarassing. The only thing embarassing thing around here is your projection of the racist tendencies of those who run in your political circles onto others who don't agree with your worldview.

Oh I forgot you're black and I'm white so I'm not allowed to say these things right? Well fuck that.

First off your a leftist liberal and all leftist liberals, regardless of their race or color go into the dumbass moonbat column in my book right quick.

Secondly...you're calling republicans racists and "IMPLYING" that liberals, leftists, and blacks themselves can never be racist. This is of course absolute horseshit. Despite all of their bogus enititlement promises and government programs the Democratic party hasn't really accomplished anything in terms of significantly helping the problems that disproportionately affect black Americans. It's more empty promises every year.

In fact when a black American succeeds without the help of the leftists establishment they are villified by the left. Such as Colin Powell, Condaleeza Rice or Michael Steele, all of whom have been subjected to derogatory racist remarks from the left.

With regard to the language issue. If blacks want to use slang which is representative of their racial heritage that is their perogative but there is absolutely nothing ammoral or racist about expecting people of all races and colors to be able to read, write and speak proper, gramatically correct, articulate, english when on the job or in school.

"The difference is that they can speak the King's English if they so choose."

No, "they" can't. It's not a matter of choice, it's primarily a matter of education. If you have not learned correct English grammar there is no way that you can fake it no matter your color.

The difference is that they can speak the King's English if they so choose.

Very few Americans even know "the King's English."

What we speak is American English, which is different. Ask any Brit.

Don't confuse RP or received pronounciation with speaking the King's English. That only means being able to use it properly, i.e. not slang, not black, not broken English.

Only middle or higher classes use RP.

Heloise

Zedd,
You made my week. What a nice compliment. Thank you so much.

My book is now an ebook...$8.95, find on Web site

Arch

With regard to the language issue. If blacks want to use slang which is representative of their racial heritage that is their perogative but there is absolutely nothing ammoral or racist about expecting people of all races and colors to be able to read, write and speak proper, gramatically correct, articulate, english when on the job or in school.

I suppose you can start by being the example for all of us Arch. This response that you submitted alone is full of spelling and grammatical errors.

Now...

Arch it depends on the job. And among friends kids speak whichever why they feel most comfy. The important thing is to be able to switch up when the situation calls for it and having the social aptitude to know when the time calls for it. I would hope that everyone can do so but they don't always know how, regardless of race.

I think the same goes for general conduct. Like your behavior online is crude but you don't know not to behave that way EVER, but you do it, proudly. To others who have had a different up bringing and social experience, you seem rough around the edges much like those rappers and ghetto kids that you hope would be more articulate. No different.

So YOUR skin doesn't make you automatically capable, its who you are; how you were raised plus all of your experiences. You've got a lot of refining to do.

Clavos

I meant what Blacks use Craker any more?? I have heard other definitions of it BTW.

Heloise

We have to be better, and still that is not good enough. Blacks must be able to code switch. Must be able to speak proper and relaxed forms of English.

True.

The funny thing is that I had to teach my kids how to speak vernacular instead of standard English. For a while, I would be rolling when they would attempt to "talk" like we do. I told them that they were embarrassing (in jest). They are now older and they have it down and can code switch easily. I learned vernacular backwards too. I started out speaking British English of all things but it didn't take any time at all for me to learn to switch. Knowing how to speak an African language as well, I have a respect for Black speak. It fills in the gaps between English and the layered and referential expressiveness of African languages. A simple phrase like "No you didn't" actually refers to the fact that the person understand who he is and what is permissible for him based on his history and culture and for him not to behave as one who lacks that awareness. I love it!! Those who don't understand it, in their arrogance loose out on its richness and the beauty of how African Americans compensated in order to survive the madness of their kidnapping and brutalization.

Heloise

The African American story is so painfully one can barely stand the weight of it. The morning that one experiences when they allow themselves to feel, for those who underwent the evil of yesteryear is almost too much.

What I am baffled by is that instead of people being amazed at how "you got over" and how this country did not go up in blazes in response to what took place, African Americans are poked at, laughed at and jabbed at for simply expressing hurt and discomfort; Not rioting or blowing things up like all other people have done throughout the world. I'm confused by that.

That after only 40 years AAs are expected to be totally caught up with everyone when the lynchers and beaters and their children are still alive, waving flags, going to church, working at banks, teaching at schools and making hiring decisions.

I'm amazed that in every field where AAs have been unencumbered, they have excelled and left everyone in the dust. Jefferson said that we did not have the capability for the arts (funny now). We got hold of instruments and ran... We were told that we couldn't compete in the ring, court or field with Whites, ran with that. Were told we couldn't quarterback or coach NFL teams. sigh.... We'll see what other doors will open fully for us.

An interesting essay on the origins, uses and meaning of the word "cracker", by scholar Karanja Burke, at the University of Vermont.

The race devide will never end. Dont let Martin Luther King die in vain.

Well said Zedd. Did you see the story of Percy Julian? That man had to overcome so much hate and well, hate and institutional racism. But he invented steroids. Steroids which saved JFK's life and allowed him to live long enough to be president.

His contributions rank in the top of all scientific discoveries.

As for MLK, I trace his past lives. He is one of the greatest Americans period, black or white.

Race is woven into the warp and woof of the world. That means that the world would literally have to be spiritized or transformed for it to go away.

Does that mean it cannot happen? No it doesn't. The purpose, one of them, of my work on the laws is to show that race is controlled by certain laws. We cannot dismiss it. But at the same time, ultimately man transcends both his gender and his race. That is ultimate transcendence.

Is that around the corner? Could be.

Heloise

Arch wrote: In fact when a black American succeeds without the help of the leftists establishment they are villified by the left. Such as Colin Powell, Condaleeza Rice or Michael Steele, all of whom have been subjected to derogatory racist remarks from the left.

Arch first of all I am not from the left wing. I think that you are pretty naive there. This is the very problem blacks had with Clarence Thomas. He freakin lieeeeed. He lied about how he got over. He said he just worked hard. He pulled himself up by his bootstraps. That there was no affirmative action that helped him, no boy.

But he lied. And what's more people like him are picked, bought and brought up to be put in high places. That is the quintessential house negro. This is why we HAVE to question who is backing Barack? Is it the Zionist Christian or Zionist Jews, or left wing leftist commies? I mean we have to ask this question. You are bringing out my JFK side now.

He and others like him are bought and paid for negroes. THerefore they are not black. If blackness were not the question then I ask who the hell, black, would support Thomas? I would love to see a real poll on that one. What about Rice? People thought she might become a prez candidate.

Why aren't blacks dancing in the street over the blacks that Bush has appointed?

I love conservatives like McWhorter and Shelby Steele, don't know Michael Steele. And I love liberals like Eric Michael Dyson just as much.

Blacks are difficult by nature. That is the truth. But does that mean we cannot be great? No it does not mean that.

Heloise

"I think the same goes for general conduct. Like your behavior online is crude but you don't know not to behave that way EVER, but you do it, proudly. To others who have had a different up bringing and social experience, you seem rough around the edges much like those rappers and ghetto kids that you hope would be more articulate. No different."

If I speak crudely toward certain individuals on here it's because I believe that's how the deserve to be spoken to, not because I'm incapable of speaking to them in any other way.

I don't hope ghetto kids or rappers would be more articulate. I don't really care. What I said was that for most people to succeed in this nation they must be able to speak proper english regardless of their color. I guess you can be a total dumbass who can't do basic math with an extremely limited vocabulary and still make millions as a rapper because you have a marketable face and can sing. But for the rest of us it takes moire than that to be successful.

Post number 16 is just one long pityfest. Did it feel good to get it off your shoulders Zedd? Well I have news for you Zedd....it's 2007 not 1840. Yes this nation does a poor history of the way it treated blacks. But that's not your personal history...it's your ancestors. You have never been a slave Zedd....you were never denied your right to vote, and unless you're older than I'm guessing you are you never had to deal with segragation. Those aren't YOUR experiences. Yes I am amazed because it's not YOUR "hurt and discomfort," yet you expect us to believe that it is.

Conversely most white people today never had an active hand in any of that oppression. So you can wax poetic and feel sorry for yourself all you want but why don't you come live in the present with the rest of us when you get done doing that.

Lastly....

"I'm amazed that in every field where AAs have been unencumbered, they have excelled and left everyone in the dust. Jefferson said that we did not have the capability for the arts (funny now). We got hold of instruments and ran... We were told that we couldn't compete in the ring, court or field with Whites, ran with that. Were told we couldn't quarterback or coach NFL teams. sigh.... We'll see what other doors will open fully for us."

I'm surte that if I had said whites have left everyone in the dust you wouldn't call it a racists statement right Zedd? But yet you probably don't consider what you said racist. By the way who are the best quarterbacks in the NFL today in your estimation?

Did you see the story of Percy Julian? That man had to overcome so much hate and well, hate and institutional racism. But he invented steroids. Steroids which saved JFK's life and allowed him to live long enough to be president.

Well, nobody's perfect.

Funny.

"But he lied. And what's more people like him are picked, bought and brought up to be put in high places. That is the quintessential house negro."

So basically any black person that is successful is a house negro because they have compromised themselves Heloise?

You use Thomas as an example but what about Colin Powell.. is he a house Negro? If so why? Is Michael Steele a house negro?

I think you're the one who is niave if you're seeking to deny that there is a double standard with regard to what liberals and minorities are allowed to say about race related issues in this nation compared with what conservatives and whites are allowed to say.....

Just a few examples......

Hillary Clinton says "Ghandi owned a gas station" she also made "several plantation remarks in her campaiging.

Joe Biden says "if you walk into a 7-11 the guy behind the counter is going to have an indian accent."

Al Sharpton claims a white man attacked a black girl without a single shred of evidence and makes a media frenzy out of it and yet today he is still taken seriously....

Several white college students at Duke are automatically presumed to be guilty of rape because the victim in the case is black and everyone who even remotely suggests that the evidence might prove that they are not guilty is automatically labelled a racist....

None of these remarks were called racists by the left or the MSM.

Yet Trentt Lott makes a remark about a remark about Strom thurmond and it's oh no he's a racists he has to resign.

It's a bogus double standard. The worst thing about it is that those who are for so called equality among all are the first to inject race and racism into every situation where they see possible personal gain. I am of course speaking of the left.

Anyone can deny it but it's the reality of today's AMerican culture.

STM you're right Catholics are not NOW a solid voting block. But I think back in the 60s they were proud of the Catholic candidate and showed it by voting for him. Hell, they had to he only won by 160,000 votes! You do the math.

Now, no one group, except maybe black dems are a solid voting block. That has begun to break up finally. I get mad at my own kids for being blind democrats. But I can't seem to sway them.

Heloise

"Several white college students at Duke are automatically presumed to be guilty of rape because the victim in the case is black and everyone who even remotely suggests that the evidence might prove that they are not guilty is automatically labelled a racist...."

i don't think this situation had much to do with the woman's race. in fact, a lot of people didn't automatically presume guilt. i didn't know that the woman was black until some months later. and i think that the mainstream media has been pretty evenhanded in this one... when all the news coming out of the proceedings was guilt and going from bad to worse, that's what was reflected... now that it looks to be going to other way, this woman is getting trounced in the media.

of course, i must say that, while i withheld judgment, i secretly hoped them fuckers were guilty because FUCK DUKE. assholes. (go wake fo-est.)

nah. i wouldn't wish false accusation on anyone. well, maybe a little on cheney. just a little. make him sweat.

Double standard maybe. But baby it is all about money. And if race talk, black, white or purple keeps money in the pockets of folks like Cheney and the Bushes then nothing else really matters.

Somebody is planning to take over the world, or gain world domination, and how will it be done? WIth money. Who will be doing it? Not black people okay. Who is the naive one? I see the big picture. I tell you what the experts will say, without reading or quoting them.

Racial politics is a construct to keep whites rich and blacks poor. When Haiti liberated itself the whole world made damn sure they never had a pot to piss or shit in again. Haiti is one big mud hill.

Do they need whites? They claimed they did not at the time, but it seems that their fate has been sealed by their blackness. Did blacks steal from their own Haitian kind? Yes, but that is only a few pennies.

Why are we at war in Iraq? It is funny that this came just when blacks were beginning to talk about reparations for slavery. Listen, Bush would rather have perpetual war--he was the warmonger in his last life--then to give blacks one thin dime after they built this country on their backs and their childrens backs, including the Hill. And ALL WHITES benefitted from slavery. End of story. This is what makes me mad about white people, they don't want to believe the obvious. Maybe you were black in your last life, don't know. I wasn't, but I am now, and I am going to raise hell.


Heloise

Well zingzing I recall seeing the black panthers early on in the case on TV saying that the fact that they were even taking the time to ascertain the facts in the case instead of just assuming the college students guilt was in fact racism.

In addition to that there were numerous lefty college professors making public statements that alluded to their belief that the lacrosse players were guilty.

Zing you should try letting go of that white liberal guilt. I don't have a drop in me and it frees me up to see things for what they really are.

Arch what do you mean racist because they tried to get the facts? Didn't they see the guys as more guilty than not? I watched quite a few programs on it and it seemed that the whole mess for the families is that the boys reps were tarnished or ruined by the presumption of guilt without much evidence or fact finding.

I am glad to see that they were vindicated in the end. But hell they were crucified in the press and in the police cars. That's what I saw.

I can't quite agree with that statement made by whom? Do you know?

Heloise

You can bitch and moan all you want about reparations but it it's a stupid fucking idea with no justification and it aint gonna happen.

As I told Zedd...slavery isn't YOUR experience, the opression your ancestors faced isn't YOURS. It's history, albeit ugly history, but it's in the past and it has less and less to do with today's reality with every passing day.

"Racial politics is a construct to keep whites rich and blacks poor."

And who devised this master strategy? Is every white American in on it? You think the average white american wakes up every morning and says to himself..."gee what can i do today to oppress black people and make them poor while I get rich?"

You think that there aren't opportunities open to blacks with connections that are not avialable to poor white people with no connections Heloise?


You think every action that is undertaken by America is a part of some grand plan to marginalize blacks?

Do you think it is beneficial for race relations in this nation for Demagouges like Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, and the countless white liberals suffering from their wretched white liberal guilt to inject claims of racism into every situation where both blacks and whites are involved without first establishing the facts of the situation?

Doesn't race talk also keep money in tthe pockets of people like Al Sharpton while it is keeping it in the pockets of Bush and Cheney? Don't Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson stand to gain as much as any white person by fanning the flames of racial tensions?

The fact is that there is still racism in America today. I don't think any sensible person would deny this Heloise. But we have come a very long way from the days of slavery and segragation. I don't feel as if anybody owes anyone else anything in our society today. To me you come off as paranoid and self pitying Heloise.

"Well zingzing I recall seeing the black panthers early on in the case on TV saying that the fact that they were even taking the time to ascertain the facts in the case instead of just assuming the college students guilt was in fact racism."

now the black panthers are your barometer for racial balance? also, i'm not quite sure what you are saying here. syntax is fucked. or maybe not. are you saying that the black panthers were withholding judgment? no... i can't really tell.


"In addition to that there were numerous lefty college professors making public statements that alluded to their belief that the lacrosse players were guilty."

quotez! i'm sure a lot of people thought they were guilty. there's quite a frattish element to team sports. i mean, if it had been the football team... i'm sure the professors would have said the same thing, white or black.


"Zing you should try letting go of that white liberal guilt. I don't have a drop in me and it frees me up to see things for what they really are."


meh. what white liberal guilt? i didn't really have an opinion on it, not knowing the cirumstances... nor did i know the race of most of the people involved (although i coulda guess that duke lacrosse players were white...) until several months later and well pass my give-a-shit date. as i said, i had no idea that the woman was black until the tide was already turning. i mean jeez... it's lacrosse. it's duke. it's a rape trial, like so many other goddamn rape trials in this country. being male, i never presume the guilt of the offending party. i never presume innocence either, because we males are sick mother fuckers.

What I was saying about the black panthers was that even before the facts had been established they were automatically assuming that the lacrosse players were guilty just because the woman was black and the lacrosse players were white.

and anyone who said wait a minute let's see what the facts in this case are was called a racist by the black panthers.

In other words all the black panthers cared about was the fact that the alleged victim was black and the alleged perpetrators were white. Thus they were guilty. Case close...no need for silly things like evidence.

Arch your whiteass is showing really you should cover it better.

We've come a long way from slavery, yes, from 1865 to 1965, 100 years. But there was what nearly 70 years of Jim Crow within those 100 years? From 1970 to 2007 is merely 37 years. My son is almost that age now. So, for about ONE freakin generation we have had the ability to make real progress. Now, compared with white folks who have had 307 years to make progress here in America, well, that's no big deal at all.

Yes, white people do wake up already knowing that they along with some black folks will marginalize and keep someone black out of the money loop. They don't have to even give it a second thought baby.

Yes, reparations is not a dirty word. Jews certainly thought they should get it.

Yes, Jesse and Al got some money for their efforts. But that did not change the color of their skin. They got it from blacks as well as whites. Whites want them to keep up the good work.

Heloise

Okay, I see what you were saying on the panther tip. I thought you meant something else. Why can't they be a bit jaundiced? I think they have earned it.

H

Arch

You kook, I don't know what #16 you are talking about.

I am not an African American per se. I was talking to Heloise, an African American not you. You have no way of understanding what I was saying. You are a shelter man with fantasies of what the world is like. I didn't ask you to comment nor did I expect you to even have an inkling of what I was speaking of. You never will.

Yes I have experienced segregation. I was born in South Africa for the billionth time. I am an expert. What about you??? Care to share??

I don't recall saying anything about slavery. What are you on about?? I talked about the history of African Americans, all of it. Why does it bother you so much. I think its time for some self examination.

You know Arch, you cant change anyone. You can only change yourself. Ask yourself why you get so ticked off to the point of being irrational about this topic. You may be ushered into a better, wiser and even happier world just by taking that step.

Also Mr. Articulate, you do realise that segregation ended in the 60's and in some places in the 70's. Just 5miles from where I reside you couldn't drive here in the 80's after dark if you were Black. Now off course its a sprawling suburb with McMansions just like every seemingly available acreage in the DFW.

With that in mind, just about everyone is still alive and well from those days, teaching, denying loans, denying employment, denying housing, etc. I walked into a BBQ place a few months ago and I knew that these were the old inhabitants of this area. The entire place turned around and me and my pretty perky daughters knew we were not welcomed. I was trying to teach them about holes-in-a-wall that just because they were ratty looking, didn't mean that the food wasn't good. There went our slumming exercise, we left and got sushi as they had suggested. We did laugh in the car though. We kept saying "get a rope" and doing banjo sounds.

You don't know that world. You just like to make fun of women on the internet and talk about things of which you have no understanding of because you are a sheltered little man who is safe and sound and protected from the world by generations of lies and liars. You will join the ranks and lie to your children and it will go on. All safe and cozy in your fantasy of a world simply because the truth will shatter you. Have at it.

Now as for saying Whites leave everyone in the dust, Arch you have said it over and over and over again on these threads only not in so many words. No that is not racist. Its true. Why its true is a different story.

You really don't know what racism is do you?

archie: "and anyone who said wait a minute let's see what the facts in this case are was called a racist by the black panthers."

that's like taking the kkk's opinion of white people as gospel. (well, maybe it's not THAT bad.) maybe i should say it's "akin to taking the kkk's opinion..."

y'all know what i mean.

Yeah, Arch ... get your cracker ass back in its box!

"Why can't they be a bit jaundiced? I think they have earned it."

Be a bit jaundiced? It' a lot more than a bit jaundiced don't you think?

We all have to be more honest and responsible if we're ever going to be a color blind society.

It is never acceptable for a white person to claim that a black person is guilty of a crime just because they are black and it is also never acceptable for a black person to claim a white person is guilty of a crime just because they are white.

You say white people have had 307 years. Well I've only been around for 29 and no one yet has given me my "congratulation you're white so you're excused from all of life's troubles and problems" pass yet Zedd.

You are in favor of reparations? OK so how much does each black American today whose has never themselves personally experienced slavery or Jim crow laws get in reparations pay? Where does the money come from? Should my taxes be raised to pay your reparations even though I've never been part of the oppression that blacks faced years and years ago? I owe you something for no other reason than I was born white and you were born black?

On DUKE

I was annoyed by the entire thing. I understand why it was illuminated. We have a real history of Black women being raped by Whites and nothing ever being said or done about it. So whoever wants to claim that there is a double standard is just silly...

But, I was annoyed because people were waisting energy going national because a stripper may have gotten raped by athletes. While it would have been a horrible story were it true but NATIONAL NEWS??? NATIONAL LEADERS???

I volunteer in the inner city and that stripper is the least of our problems. I was sickened by the entire thing.

Everyone including Blacks get "RACISM" fatigue. Whenever Pastor Bojangles or the scene stealer of the week pops up with an undeveloped accusation, it is annoying to everyone, Blacks included. If you were to be in a beauty shoppe on Saturday while one of those guys were on TV giving one of their MLK wanna be speeches, you would hear people saying "he needs to sit down some where". Not because they don't believe there is racism but because they know the issue are much more significant then the foolishness that is promoted.

There was an ineffective police chief who shouldn't have been promoted in the first place, who happened to be Black. The guy was just a mess. He just wasn't cut out for the post. But as soon as he was fired (rightfully so) the protest junkies went at it. Now during his tenure, he never cared about he AA community. Crime rose to an all time high in the inner city. while yes, he as railroaded but he really needed to step down, FAST!! Many thought he was a joke, that he was just never qualified.

All of a sudden this guy started thinking he was MLK and talking about "his people will stand up for him". He held many press conferences. It was hilarious and embarrassing. I remember a few dinner parties where we would laugh until crying at the situation then end up upset and the circus of it all....

People are just crazy. But non of these types of incidents negate the very real existence of racism in America.

Just as thousands of women cry wolf, millions more actually do get raped. It doesn't mean that we should stop prosecuting rape.

Arch, I can't answer those questions without giving away the theme and construct of something I am working on. Suffice it to say, a showdown about reparations is coming if I have anything to do with it.

Heloise

good night.

Who would be offended by the word "cracker". It just doesn't seem rude enough to count.

I'm not saying that any word SHOULD be used but it just seems mild and ineffective.

Like saying "pickle" or "almond" or "bread".

If I am offending someone who has been hurt by being called a craker I am really sorry. I am just commenting on the word itself not the meaning.

I think the N word is silly too. There is no real definition for it. I understand what significance it had though. I remember the word "kaffir" as silly as it sounds but it makes the hair stand up on the back of my neck. Even though my uncles used to joke and call each other that in the tone of the SA police then laugh...

Arch

You have a pass. You just don't know it.

Its like trying to tell your kids that they are lucky to have what they have and that things could be worse but they don't believe you because they don't know just how blessed they are. Their world is so tiny and they are just sheltered. Its futile.

Well Arch luv, you are blessed. You just don't know it and you probably never will.

Arch

You are only 29???

I thought you were some old coot. One of those guys who tell kids to get off his yard and has a lot of gadgets in his back yard.

In that case. You'll grow into a better understanding. Your world will reveal a lot of truth to you that remains hidden still. It will be good.

Why would a young man be proud of being a conservative in today's world??? Geez WEIRD!!

"I thought you (Arch) were some old coot. One of those guys who tell kids to get off his yard and has a lot of gadgets in his back yard."

Lol ... And a raincoat with pockets full of boiled candy.

Silly man :o)

heh. poor archie. he's a weird one. i don't truly want to believe in any white blessing... because i'm from the south and know enough about white poverty to know that being born middle class is more of a blessing than just being white.

then again, i went from the richest elementary school in the district (85% white, it was) to the poorest middle school in the district (happened to be about 60% black) and know that there is a black/white divide. the kids didn't really care, but looking back on it, it's easy to see.

still, going to high school (pretty good mix, nice neighborhood) and college (where [almost] all things are equal) showed me that you make yourself. i think you kind of come across a choice at a rather young age (well before you should have to make such choices) what kind of person you are going to be. the truth is that the choices are much more stark for black youths, especially in cities. but, it's still a decision you make for yourself.

Zing

I agree with you to a very large degree, however the reason that parents provide certain experiences for their children or send them to certain schools, the reason that collages want kids with those special experiences is because they form the individual. Collages want the best of the best so they accept kids who have had unique and "well rounded" exposure.

If you are born in an environment where you just don't get the same education or experiences, no matter how much you want to do well, you will be behind. When you cant break through the basic barrier which is defined by skin, you will have a lessor chance to make it.

As wonderful and diverse as my background is I have to convince people that I am an okay Black before I am treated just like a normal human being. We are not talking about privilege, I am talking about being given the benefit of a doubt as just a person.

If I am having a goober day, it will be counted that my ineptitude on that day is because of my skin. If I truly display my full capability its as if I am intentionally trying to show off or hurt people or shatter their world because I am not less then them. I was asked by one of my employees (White male, recent collage graduate with an Engineering degree) after months of him being frustrated that I was not fitting into the way he expected Blacks to be, "Why do you date doctors and attorneys?". He was furious and red faced as if he was trying to contain himself. I was taken aback and didn't really have an answer for that. I figured out later that he was really asking me why was I fitting into what he thought Blacks were like. What got me was his anger. That entire crew had a lot of difficulty with my not fitting into the idea that they had grown up with. Its as if I was trying to hurt them by just being myself. They were a difficult bunch, but I was boss....

A poor White with no social guidance, who didn't do well is school and really made no effort at all, will get more of a benefit of a doubt at the onset because of their skin. They will not spend time proving their humanity. They just play along and get accepted.

It seems ridiculous and therefore hard to believe but that is where your blessing lies Zing. On the other hand, its exhausting and annoying for people like me. Imagine that the world is full of people like Arch (and it is). His views are eye rolling but imagine having to tolerate that silliness all of the time. Its just annoying. Who wants to HAVE to prove themselves to an imbecile.

My bliefs are eye rolling and silly becuase I don't believe injecting racism into everything?

Arch

Why would you. You are a beneficiary of racist policies. You just don't know it because you are sheltered.

Heck you don't even acknowledged it why would you inject it.

Also, let go of the fantasy that people inject racism into everything. You are doing yourself a disservice when you exaggerate. Its a way of avoiding reality and dismissing an issue. You cant grow that way.

People live their lives, pay bills, kiss their kids hello and goodbye, go to work, make love, eat meals, invite friends over, celebrate holidays, go to church, do groceries, etc. People don't want to encounter silly racists in their lives. I know you think its a privilege to experience racism and to get to talk about but REALLY Arch, where is your brain?? I suppose because you don't know what it is, you don't know what you are talking about.

What!!!! Arch DOES inject racism into everything.

He/she runs on the platform of being a racist.

And blaming it on the "liberals"--whoever THEY are.

The dynamic of race in the US is that the folks who should have NO power are the ones who get into the power--does not matter what color they are.

Anybody else is way too threatening for the MASTERS of you guys.

As opposed to you moonraven who runs on a platform of being paranoid habitual offended victim?

"The dynamic of race in the US is that the folks who should have NO power are the ones who get into the power--does not matter what color they are."

Umm yeah.... that statement made no sense. How can it not matter what color someone who is in power is and at the same time be a "racial dynamic?"

If you don't understand English, I could teach you s afew other languages, Arch.

It will cost you big bucks, though.

Apparently you're the one who doesn't understand English as evidenced by your comment in post 80.

Can something be done about the previous comment please!!

Thank you!

comment #80 is a personal attack. But I don't have the editorial power to delete it. Maybe Chris will notice it and delete it.

Okay guys calm down.

I am working on another article.

Heloise

Well I've read most of the comments here, many of which appear to come from non-blacks. I have a problem when non-blacks attempt to define or comment upon what may or may not define blackness. When they do it segues too close to the original 'de-construct' which began all the trouble hundreds of years ago.

That said, I also have a problem when blacks tend to define 'blackness' as monolithic; and those who do not consign to the monolith as not being black. Hence, from Heloise's precept "Condi and Clarence" aren't black.

The true problem with Heloise's comments is not the premise, but the presumptuousness of her thoughts.

As she opens, "The question of Blackness is perfectly valid...". Quite.

The problem is that blackness must be defined before it can be questioned. Without such, nothing can be validated.

Yet, this blog is about Obama's chances to win the nomination and subsequently the race, correct?

Again, Heloise is being presumptuous. She states:

"I am saying that he needs to secure a base. Why? Because his base, that should include a large black coalition, should and could put him into office."

Well, first the apparent presumption is that Obama doesn't have a "base"; or, more accurately Obama doesn't have the "base" that Heloise (and others) WANT Mr. Obama to have. The base she states he "should" have. The stark reality is that Barrack Obama does, indeed, have a base, and it would seem, quite a strong one.

Unfortunately for Heloise, Obama's base consists not of the atypical civil-rights oriented urban base of (the charlatan) Al Sharpton, but of an entirely alien base of white, middle and upper-middle class, mid-western and eastern URBAN white women (and their mates)! This is his base, like it or not.

What is truly frightening for many of the "atypical" is the slow realization that Obama, a so-called black man, could possibly win the nomination WITHOUT the support of the "atypical" base. That is, without the overwhelming support of American blacks. This is a frightening thought.

If Condi and Clarence aren't black (appointed functionaries), then what of a black-skinned elected President who has won and doesn't *need* the black vote as a base of support.

Can such a President be black?

Is Obama black? Can a man who shares so little of the BLACK-AMERICAN heritage be black? Is he black culturally? More importantly, is he black politically? Which begs the question: 'what is the 'black politic'?

Is this not the more important, and underlying, question? Whether the 'black politic' of Chislum, Jackson and (gasp) Sharpton is valid, relevant and progressive to OUR modern times and future?

Or, has it become, or is becoming, as passé as the monolithic notion of blackness itself.

If Condi and Clarence, as well as Colin, and additionally (and more relevantly) the likes of Ken Chenault, Stan O'Neal, Richard Parson, etc., are black, then the monolith is broken, and consequently so shall the atypical 'black politic' be broken as well.

Isn't Obama's popularity, even if primarily among non-blacks, and particularly if he succeeds to the nomination, a statement of (Democrat) America's willingness to accept and support a non-white candidate? Obviously, it must be so. If it is so, then the greater truth is that not of acceptance, but of rejection----rejection of the status quo, of the atypical 'black politic'.

It is cause to ponder; if not for the 'black politic' could there have been an Obama sooner?

Moreover, need Condi and Clarence, as well as Obama, be (monolithically) 'black'? Can and will monolithic blackness, and the 'black politic' of Chislum and Jackson, and more generationally relevant, of Sharpton and Dyson bring us into the new American future, where wasp's will no longer be a majority, black-Americans will be an ever smaller minority, Hispanics the largest minority, and Asians and ever growing one.

When the Presidential candidates come to town, the first question blacks should pose should not be about Iraq, Iran, nor Afghanistan, no, the question they NEED to ask is this:

"Is Bill Cosby Right"?

For if he is, then Condi and Clarence are surely blacker than Puffy and Fifty.

Wow You said a mouthful.

I will get back shortly and write a few comments.

But in meantime last night I did go to a meetup for Obama. At the meetup the organizer (this group is for Tarrant CO Texas) said that Obama does not want to take PAC monies.

He wants to have a grassroot support primarily. That said then Barack wants to make history by not having a solid base of any stripe or color?

I asked the question "Who is backing Barack?" And I plan to find answers to that question. From his own definition he says that NO one is backing him. He wants support from tout le monde, i.e. everybody.

That's seems counter-intuitive to me to think that one can win without a strong base. But what do I know? I was only JFK.

Heloise

Hello,

I had hoped to reference a book club review of Obama's book, "Dreams from My Father", which aired on BookTV back in 2005. Unfortunately, BookTV does not have this *Online* for viewing. I've sent an email request, so hopefully it will be online soon.

My first exposure to Mr. Obama was by way of this airing. By viewing it, you would see up close, Obama's base. His base, as I've stated it to be.

Middle and Upper-middle, mid-western and eastern, white and female, Suburban/Urban. It's no wonder that you, a black female, definitely within the *race*, is having a hard time finding and grasping his base.

His base, which, like it or not is the anti-thesis (now I'm being presumptuous) of yourself.

Scary isn't it?!

Frankly, while watching that airing, I had to sit down and hold my breath. :) Surprising to say the least, to witness 'this group' embrace a black-skinned man in such a manner.

On a similar note, just the other week, I was driving along (here in NYC), and for the first time I saw an Obama bumper sticker stuck upon a (ubiquitous) SUV.

Intrigued, I sped up in order to catch a glimpse of the SUV's occupants. Would the occupants be black urban and professional (this being NY)? Or, would they be afro-centrists activists from deep in the hood? Who would they be? I made a bet with my passenger. Of course, I won.

The SUV bumper sticker occupants were, white, urban, professional and young (early 30s).

The 'black politic' is about to be shaken to its core.

Book Club: "Dreams from My Father" by Barack Obama
from October 1, 2005
Sen. Barack Obama's 1995 memoir, "Dreams from My Father," was reissued in paperback following his widely talked-about speech at the Democratic Convention in July 2004. The book tells the story of how Sen. Obama came to terms with his identity as the son of a black African father and a white American mother. "Dreams from My Father" was the subject of the Pageturners Book Group's September meeting at the Naperville Public Library, in Naperville, Illinois -- 30 miles from Sen. Obama's home in Chicago.

heloise: "But what do I know? I was only JFK."

believe what you want to believe, but don't advertise this particular belief of yours. it doesn't lend you ANY credibility. none. in fact, it kind of makes anything you have to say a bit suspect, as you may be delusional. i don't really care on way or another anymore, but i'm just letting you know how it comes across.

zing:

There were articles about free speech here on BC. Perhaps you didn't catch them.

I don't need your permission, nor take clues from people with whom I cannot debate. Why? Because you don't know enough.

T:

I wrote in a post or article that his book "Dreams" was a reissue. It was not a bestseller the first time around.

When I went to the meeting last night guess what? I expected to see white, middle class people (Texas) and I did. There was a good showing of black folks, mostly middle class, like myself.

I am from the Midwest, educated, and middle class. But I live in Texas now.

The "base" question is what I mentioned in another article or here, that he would be wise to get blacks on board, as part of his base. Is he doing that? No. Why? Because he is trying to create a coalition of left, right, black and white.

He states as much in his books. He is way too liberal on the immigration front for me. He is also trying to play to the middle. But only legal citizens can donate to his candidacy.

He is not taking my advice "get the black base on board." That's my advice. We could elect him. But if he cannot garner the black vote as his base, then his second best option/strategy would be to get white folks on board. He seems to be going for the latter.

Heloise

"There were articles about free speech here on BC. Perhaps you didn't catch them.

I don't need your permission, nor take clues from people with whom I cannot debate. Why? Because you don't know enough."

talk all you want. i don't give a fuck. makes you look like a loon, though. either way. it's not an issue of free speech. it's just a suggestion.

can i be john lennon?

don't know enough about what? you go ahead and decide you can't debate with someone... that's your right too, but i don't believe we have ever really debated about anything, and i don't don't believe i've addressed you at all on this topic, now have i?

frankly, i think i know quite a few things that you don't. i can name one in particular. but you don't want to hear it.

When people start quibbling over whether someone is 'black' enough, the days of racial division in the US are pretty much over and the racemongers have gotten desperate.

Dave

Heloise, Zing was trying to be helpful, not critical. Zing, "Loonie" is the gal over on the Fatima thread who would spend days commenting back & forth to herself.

well, i must say heloise seems to keep it together much better than "our lady." at least she keeps it to one personality around here.

LOL - you (Zing) got that right!

Okay Nancy if you say so. I like you. Don't know about zing. That's funny though. I do morph into other incarnations. But my Heloise persona keeps me grounded.

Hi Dave,

Who are you calling a "racemonger?" I called Hillary a "warmonger."

As I stated it is a legitimate and academic question that we are addressing. If this is too highbrow for you then that explains it.

Zing why are you getting both offensive and defensive? I have been called every damn thing in the book. Do you think I pay any heed to that? If we all sat around and listened to the evolutionists, humanists, and Christians telling us that we are here one freakin time, die, food for worms, end of story, then humanity would make no progress.

The West is one of the few places that has not accepted reincarnation/rebirth.

If you knew your African religions then you would know that this is the central core to many African religions--rebirth of the ancestors to their children. This is why they do not limit the number of children. Like I said you don't know enough to "debate" "question" me.

Heloise

Were you John Lennon? I don't know. That's for you to answer.

i know plenty about reincarnation. it's a very simple concept.

what i doubt is that one knows where one comes from. mystery of life and all that.

just like you, i have every right to question whatever i see fit. like the fact that i certainly don't see an end to life as equal to a lack of human progress.

"The West is one of the few places that has not accepted reincarnation/rebirth."

the idea of it is plausible, just as plausible as a big man in the sky. but it is certain that not everyone outside of the west "accepts" reincarnation as the truth. it's just another idea.

@ Dave Nalle

I presume you are white? If not, it only matters in presaging how deep or shallow your perspective.

The problem for white people, as well as many black people is that when they look at a black what they see foremost is skin color.

For most whites, blackness is defined by skin color. This is precisely as it has been since the beginning, whites defining blacks by the color of their skin.

Please understand, that as a black person, I do not define other black people, and certainly not myself by my skin color.

My blackness is not defined by my skin color.

A white person can and does look at, just because he's the example of the day, Obama and think and believe that he is black.

Defining him by his skin color and, worst of all, monolithizing (sp?) him with all blacks. Doing so, is similar to the old adage that "they all look alike". Doing so does Obama a disservice and dehumanizes blacks as individuals.

Simply because Obama has black skin doesn't make him apart of black-America. If an African from Zaire moves to America, is he now a "black-american? Or, more politically correct, an African-American? More precisely, does he share MY heritage as an American?

Obviously not.

Hence, he may have black skin, but he is not 'black', as defined by the African-American experience in America. (Which is why I stated to Heloise that blackness must be defined before it can be validated.)

My skin doesn't define my culture, it is my legacy of experience in this nation which defines me and mine. My culture is my legacy, my legacy is my culture.

On the question of Obama, the, general, black-American perspective is, 'if you are not of my culture, can you and will you represent my culture? Are you representing me? Can you represent me? (The same questions asked of any white candidate?)

Hence, are you black? Are you black enough?

(Bill Clinton, a white southerner, is often referred to as the *black* president. Some would say that Clinton is blacker than Obama. Why? How? Simply because Clinton is perceived to have represented black interests greater than all but a couple of prior Presidents.)

For whites, black means skin, for blacks, black means culture (or, at least, *interest*).

Stop viewing blacks as a monolith of YOUR definition!

(Note: I say this to blacks more than to whites, so please don't feel put upon. My aim is to enlighten, not to offload guilt or anger.)

Dave, ToranagaSama,

The issue of "are they Black enough" has been in place for quite some time. Even some of the most famous AA's "Blackness" was questioned. Booker T. Washington's commitment to the Black agenda was questioned. Some saw him to be a apologist to White Southern ideals for Blacks.

Passers offcourse were not Black by choice.

The house Negro was not considered to be "Black enough".

It does have to do with an understanding of AA culture and a commitment to their interests. What is changing Dave is a definition or scope of what AAs see as their interests. There is a departure from the agenda of the civil rights generation.

Don't you guys realise that until you stop seeing everything in black and white, as it were, nothing's going to change. I've never heard anything so bizarre as the argument over whether someone is black enough to be considered an African American. I know it doesn't just relate to skin colour, but it's bizarre, nevertheless.

Obama's an American, isn't he? Shouldn't that be enough?

Miss Heloise suffers from the twin psychological afflictions of arrogant presumption characterizing both academia and racial victimology. Note the pure presumptuousness of demanding as the basic proof of authentic blackness that you toe the exceedingly tired commie leftwing line.

All "real" black folk, of course, favor socialism and pacifism. I'm sure that all authentic black folk also favor gay marriage, and the Kyoto treaty as well. Plus of course, all authentic black folk are opposed to defending the country (AmeriKKKa) through force of arms. Tell me, what is the authentic black opinion held by all legitimate black folk regarding entitlement reform and estate taxes?

Besides the pure arrogance of this Stalinist idea of blackness, I'm again struck by the utter shallowness of the definition. Condi's experience growing up under Jim Crow doesn't give her a legitimate black perspective. Only being a militant racially oriented leftist can do that.

A friggin' masters degree, and your thinking is about a quarter inch deep at best. And what kind of authentic blackness is a degree in anthropology? Aren't you supposed to be bangin' and listening to Snoop? Sounds like just another house Negro of the left wing academics to me.

I got you reading my shallow ass.

Hey, I am the last one to call myself authentically black. Hell, I went to private school, never missed a meal, had a country home, father's dad never worked a day in his life. His money and investments worked for him. On the other hand, you know the song "your daddy's rich and mamma's good looking?" Well, that's me!

My mother was beautiful but from an extremely poor family of 14. Immigrants from Cuba and Italy.

My dad was black as coal, looked like a black Greek or Indian. I am the true YIN and YANG.

I love black folks, that's my claim to fame. Deal with it. I make NO NO NO apologies for my complexity or my complexion. :)

Heloise

T wrote: Hence, he may have black skin, but he is not 'black', as defined by the African-American experience in America. (Which is why I stated to Heloise that blackness must be defined before it can be validated.)

T: did you read my "Obama-Drama Meter?" In that article I sort of make fun of Obama's "Black Americaness" by reciting things about his life, such as growing up in Indonesia and Hawaii. I mean doesn't everybody? I was creative about his credentials rather than just rattling off a litany of facts about him. I'm clever like that.

These white folks are hating on Heloise :)

Well said Zedd.

I am not telling the half of what I know about "passan blanches." Why because about 1/4th of my family from both sides combined live as white. Some had no choice because they simply did not look even close to black. They wanted to live as black. They started out living in black neighborhoods etc. But blacks just did not accept them as black people.

This is something whites may have NO concept about. My mother's family is Creole. And everybody knows that Creoles are crazy because of the color thing imposed by living and growing up in New Orleans. My only experience with discrimination came when I had to sit in the back of the bus in NOLA. Could not go in some stores.

But guess what? My aunts could go in the store and get what we wanted because they looked white. We were basically split right down the middle. Half of them looked white, the other half looked black. All of my sisters and cousins from my black dad's first family have to live as white. They tried to live as black, but black folks were having none of it. They all looked Swedish!

Then my other cousins have people looking in their scalps and asking them "is that your real hair?" It never ends with the inquiries. If I had a dollar for everytime someone was asked what race we were I'd already be rich.

If you have not lived it you have no idea how obsessed with race and color white folks are. So they are just shucking and jiving us pretending that we are making shit up. They invented, Jewish anthropologists along with Anglos, race science. Now, who the hell is race conscience?

Don't let anybody tell you we are not valid in our questions. We are ahead of the curve. I know it is not new. There is nothing new under the sun. I am pushing it personally because it highlights my "laws of rebirth." We have to come into interim bodies and change races gradually.

Here's what gets me: whites have had their say about race, Jews, blacks, and everything in between. Back then we, blacks had no voice, no sayso. We had to sit back and take it. Now, I think it's our turn. We have earned it. That's why I hate PC. Jewish intellectuals invented it to keep black people in their place. And most of all to keep anybody from saying one bad thing about a Jew. See how furious they get when you do?

Why do Jews get so mad at me? Should I write an apology ala Mel Gibson? I am sorry? Mea culpa? I don't think so.

I am a freaken card-carrying expert on what it means to struggle with blackness and whiteness as a question, even if I did not have a master's degree.

My sister, who is Kathleen Kennedy reborn, looks so white that when we loose her in a crowd of white people we can hardly find her. She has returned looking just as she did when she was Kick. She is not so split about being black. She seems to li