You could move to Canada, I'd be proud of that. You're spinning the hell out of US history all for the sake of a GW Bush hit piece. You compare Hillary to Hitler while pondering whether to vote for her? We can't be proud of our astronauts because of the actions of one of them? Geesh! Get thee gone - Canada awaits you.

I'd really like for "Adam Ash" to be more than the dumb, dangerous joke that he has become. Blogcritics is scraping the barrel here, folks. One of our presidentral candiates John "You may be injured and not know it" Edards, just drove halfway across the country chasing an ambulance.

When we can't even be proud of our Dumbocratic controlled government. Isn't it time to do something about the state of the one nation on earth that always does the right thing while the rest of the world waits for us to save them and do the necessary dirty work?

Adam...good job I am glad that you still dont let history and facts get in the way of reality!

JOM

(Editor: Thanks in advance for not editing my comments - Adam opened the door...I just went in!)

I was initially going to offer a lengthy response but this piece and the man who wrote are such a fucking joke that I won't waste my time.

No objectivity whatsoever. Just blind, insistent anti-Americanism.

America in my lifetime:

Along with its allies, won WWII.

An American, Jonas Salk, rid the world of the scourge of polio.

Another American (whom I personally know), Dr. Norman Borlaug, showed the world how to quadruple its wheat harvest, and won the Nobel Peace Prize for it.

An American, James Watson, And an Englishman, Francis Crick, unraveled the secret of DNA (with the help of work from Rosalind Franklin and Maurice Wilkins, both British.

And what about:

Martin Luther King, Jr.
Rachel Carson
Rosa Parks
Dwight D. Eisenhower
Douglas Macarthur

And on a different level:

Louis Armstrong
Ella Fitzgerald
Rodgers and Hammerstein
Bob Dylan
Steven Spielberg
Bill Gates
William Levitt

Hell, to add to Clavos' list, Noam Chomsky's even an American, that ought to make Adam happy.

Dave

It does not make Noam happy.

from reading the title of this, i really thought it was going to be a right-wing america love-in. but... it wasn't. really adam. this is a pretty negative view, even for you. we aren't a perfect country. sometimes i'm not very proud of the things we do. but i can divorce the things our politicians do from the things that we do. our internal politics might be a laugh as well, but at least we have made strides towards equality and recognizing our fellow citizens' humanity and rights.

plus, we made punk rock and hip hop. which are, you know, the most important things in the world, day to day.

Plus is a great place for pre-operative transexuals ...right Adam....

JOM

Adam

Like Clavos I can list a great deal more to be proud of in my lifetime. I would add to his list Malcolm X, and Dizzy Gillespie among others.

However you are dead on when describing us as of late. What is disheartening is that most Americans are so insecure that they will not take in or even ponder on that sort of criticism. Also your comments aren't predictable or rote enough. We are used to predictability and happy endings. You omitted to close in a flag waving, motto or even an epigram and cause us to well up with pride and shed a slight tear over our bemusing greatness. Your contribution would have been much better received.

You were too clear and certainly too pointed. You must learn to fuzzy things up. Its how its done in these parts. sigh!

What will most likely happen, if we follow the trend that we have started, is that we will put Giuliani in office. We will piss of the small part of the world that is still on our side and Rome will continue to crumble. We will continue to defend our ignorance while gleefully basking in the glory of our wonderfulness as the EU gets more powerful and developing nations develop and snicker at us.

America love it or leave it!!! tisk tisk.

"the Russian Empire crumbled from within without any help from us"

That's not accurate. Sure, it would have fallen anyway, but America did help hasten the dissent. From forcing them to spend so much in defense to keep up with us to products like blue jeans and rock and roll.

"Then came the America of Bush Two. Between Enron...Ford Motors losing $35m a day last year while Japanese car companies are building cars profitably on our soil, and the outsourcing of American jobs to other countries by our highly patriotic corporate elite..."

Sorry, but all these things would have happened under any President from either side.

"And what of us chumps unfortunate enough to be stuck inside the USA?"

While I'm not thrilled with the country's leadership, I do appreciate the ideals the country was founded on. If you feel so unfortunate to be here, why haven't you left? I'm not telling you to go, just wondering why stay if you think it's so bad. Walk the walk if you are going to talk the talk.

Noam Chomsky? You man that stinkin' bastard who trashes his homeland and his people and has the admiration of all the fools who can't tell a Nazi from a nutjob without a score-card (and we got a pack of them at Blog Critics)? That Noam Chomsky?

Keep the bastard. He's yours now. I'm waiting for the government that will revoke his Israeli ID and refuse the son of a bitch admittance here, and refuse his ashes (the shithole will probably want to be cremated, just like the goy he acts like). That's the kind f government that would make me proud to be an Israeli.

By the way, did I mention that I hate the son of a bitch?

PS. You Americans can have free of charge, Ilan Pape, Uri Avneri, the asshole who runs ICAHD (I forgot his name, but he was born and bred in Minnesota - stick him in a freezer where it's 40 below), Yossi Beilin, Ehud Olmert, Shimon Peres, Shulamit (bat zoná) Aloni, Amir Peretz, Aharon Barak, Ehud Barak, Dan Halutz, Stan Fisher (the putz who runs Israel Bank). There are a whole bunch more, but these shits sti(n)k out the most. Just make sure you never let them on Israel soil again. They contaminate the place too much.

I suppose that you'd be proud to give even more than the 30 or 40 percent of the income you currently donate? If we'd all just contribute what?...70% to help the poor it would be a much better nation. United Socialist States of Amerika.

Adam

I might vote for Hillary, if she can stop herself from being the most calculating politician since Hitler

HILARITY!!!! I thought I was the only one who felt that way.

Agree about Edwards!. Would consider McCain.

Giuliani is a jerk! He started his campaign right after 911. What irks me AGAIN is how we are so gullible in this country. People who HATED him as mayor all of a sudden were all misty eyed saying that he galvanized the nation after 911. HOW STUPID!! What else was he going to do? Stay home and tell the media to go stuff themselves then go spit and stump on the rubble at ground zero? I mean REALLY!!

I suppose with GW sitting there reading his kindergarten book upside down, he pretty much looked like The Masked Marvel.

A month after 911 I told my friend "Oh goodness, he's running for President".

The one thing that stuck out in this piece for me was the whining phrase about being "stuck in the US".

Anyone with the courage of his or her convictions should have the brains to plan an exit from The Fortress.

I don't live there--mainly because I sure as hell am not proud of a country built on the genocide of my ancestors.

Tomorrow I have to fly from Mexico City to Seattle to take care of some family stuff, and let me tell you I am NOT looking forward to feeling the Ambience of Fear for 10 days.

I usually have to make the trip twice a year, and I think my breathing only becomes normal when I get on the last leg of the flight home to Mexico.

The US maybe wouldn't be such a hell hole if folks were not sitting on their asses doing nothing and making lists of folks who have done something they can feel proud of.

The folks who have done meritorious things don't need Conniw Mack clones taking credit for tham.

Adam, you could research your facts a little better, but overall, you have only scratched the surface of what is wrong with the USA. The government is obviously nothing less then an organized crime operation, but the majority of the people that live here are idiots as well. And no, I don't think that this can be over stated. I would not have said this before living here every day for the last 44 years. I also would not have had quite the confidence to say it 10 years ago, but I learn more every day unlike the religiously and politically brainwashed. Proud of the USA? Blithering idiot is not the language I use to describe these people.

If you feel so unfortunate to be here, why haven't you left?

If you truly respect what was established by our founding fathers you will respect our criticism of ourselves. THAT is what is American. Being over sensitive keeps us from tweaking ourselves; fixing what is wrong with ourselves. We've gone dumb because we stopped seeing a need to be FIXED. The sixties scared us and now we are content, after Reagan, to offer sonnets, aphorisms and sayings, all bestowing our wonderfulness and might.

People come here because we SAY we are liberal. We tell the world that we are innovative and constantly changing for the best. We tell the world that we live in a land where we criticize ourselves and the government at will. When immigrants come they are met with endless nausiating requests to say how much they love America. Any observation that does not containing fawning and gushing is met with anger and the famous phrase, which you so eloquently stated "if you don't like it leave". Sigh!

It seems so needy and insecure.

Hey Rufus...I see the US welfare checks and foodstamps are late again this month...sorry..I guess thats why your pissed at us...I am sorry I just dont know how it feels to live in a welfare state where you have to depend on another country - the US - to feed and cloth you...

JOM

It won't help the US all that much but it would improve this place a bit if Dave Vox Populi Nalle was booted off for fraud.

Ashamed of Vox Nalle.

Proud of the Dixie Chicks.

"Between Enron, Katrina, the Iraq War, Ford Motors losing $35m a day last year while Japanese car companies are building cars profitably on our soil, and the outsourcing of American jobs to other countries by our highly patriotic corporate elite, there is absolutely nothing to be proud of."

Now how did Bush cause Ford to loose that type of money? Oh thats right, Ford has been run by fools who have put it into the crapper.

So Japanese companies should not be able to produce a profitable car? I espcially like contrasting this with the outsourcing statement, because this is outsourcing from the Japanese perspective. Perhaps the Japanese should stop outsourcing and take all those auto production jobs back to Japan.

And while I am on outsourcing, We should kick those Chinese and Indians to the curb and give the jobs to us Americans. What hypocracy. This is exactly the kind of nationalistic sentiment this piece rails aganst.

"If you truly respect what was established by our founding fathers you will respect our criticism of ourselves."

He's the one who said he was stuck here; I asked why. I never used that famous phrase and went out of my way to say that's not what I meant, so spare the misguided lecture.

When the criticism is based on an inaccurate premise, there's no reason to respect it.

Guys...Adam ASSh...has fooled everyone again with his gift of parodoxical writing...is it april 1st??? This has to be a joke right??

JOM

I am proud that some of my fellow American BC posters have called out Adam Ash on his anti_American bullshit.

[Personal attack deleted]

and i'm proud of people who recognize adam's right to say whatever the fuck he pleases.

and same to archie. although he wouldn't extend the same credit to himself.

When the astronaut thing came out, I was like "WHAT NOW"!

Its all getting so nasty and weirder by the minute. Is it just time for Rome to fall? Has the denial about who we are combined with the dummying down eventually gotten to us? Has our international policy where it comes to poorer and less powerful nations finally become apparent to the world while we sit in our stupor? Are we not importing the right types of immigrants? Why are we so flat and unmotivated?

I'm proud of my church and my family. I'm proud of the guy that puts those tiny peanut butter cups in ice cream - that's pure genius! I'm proud Brett Favre, The Simpsons, and the pharmaceutical companies. I'm proud of the money we raised for tsunami relief.

I'd never thought to look to the government for a sense of pride. I'm proud of our government's founding principles, and most of this administration's policies, but it's not my source of self-esteem. The thing that defines America is our freedom from our government. Everything about China is a result of the policies of the Chinese government; if you're proud of China, you're proud of Chinese policy. You can be proud of America no matter what party or person is in power, because the power they have is limited.

You can be proud of America no matter what party or person is in power, because the power they have is limited.

Very, very well said, Baronius. AA makes the common mistake of the left in confusion the current administration and their dislike for it with America and a dislike for their nation. This, of course, suggests that their primary identification is not with America, but with some other group or entity.

Dave

1. I love this country, which is why I'm so pissed that we've become such fuckups, and vote for such fuckups.

2. I wish the BC editors hadn't deleted the personal attack from Arch Conservative. Really, guys, stop being so prissy. You're spoiling all the fun, for chrissake. Lighten up, BC censors! I welcome personal attacks, I love them, please keep them in! Don't be such wuzzes. This sissy nannying isn't necessary. Haven't you heard of an American invention called freedom of expression?

I love this country, which is why I'm so pissed that we've become such fuckups, and vote for such fuckups.


You live this country? What do you love about it. You certainly didn't fill us in in your article.

I don't think you love this country at all. I think you love the idea that it may be possible for you and your leftist ilk to someday reach a point where you have complete and utter control of government and culture and no one who disagrees with you has any power to advance their values.

You'll probably deny this but it's the truth from everything I can gather about you from you're writings.

"Haven't you heard of an American invention called freedom of expression?"

Isn't that something to be proud of?

BLOGGERS

Where is the critique guys???

I am reading a lot of defensiveness. We are drowning. Jump in and save this country.

Its like a husband whose wife tells him over and over that she is not happy and he thinks he can argue her into being happy. When she finally leaves, he is left wondering what happened.

What do YOU want to change?? How about us having THAT discussion. That is a really good way to show your love for America. We are not living up to who we say we are. The entire planet is really laughing at us.

"The entire planet is really laughing at us."??? Zedd "what are you 12 years old"? Its obvious you dont travel much..I am on the road 60% of the time 1/2 of that internatioonal travel..guess what...these other countries are not laughing at us...they are wallowing in their own dispair of high taxes, failed policines and the collapse of their culture due to thrid world immigrants!

The media never covers the pro american sentiment coming out of the new europe and asia..I was in SE Asia last month for 2 weeks...People love americans and would kill to come here.

Save some of your money working the night shift at McDonalds do some traveling and get some first hand experience...

JOM

What do YOU want to change?? How about us having THAT discussion.

Ok. The change I'd like to see is that when people make posts like this one, or your comment that 'We are drowning', the reaction would be laughter instead of half the readers taking such ridiculousness seriously.

Dave

JOM

I was born outside of the country. They are laughing Buddy. Why would they tell you to your face? They are really laughing and shaking their heads.

Now what do you want to do to repair your country that you love???

Oh Dave I wasn't asking you to respond. I know you don't have anything that even skims on the realistic to contribute. If its not apple pie, hot dogs and baseball oh and guns its not worthwhile to you.

Sorry I should have been more clear.

Zedd, I was born outside the country too, and a hell of a lot of them are laughing at people like you. Check in with STM sometime and get his view from Australia.

Dave

I live in a city literally full of people who risked life and limb to get here. Not a one of them is laughing, other than in joy, because they got here.

I'm not exaggerating: come to Miami; stop anyone on the street who's a foreigner, and ask them if they're glad to be here.

We have millions of people who gave up much to come here because they saw it as an improvement over what they faced at home.

They are not laughing.

Clavos:

I am speaking people that live outside of the US, in today's world.

Also, Miami has a different dynamic. Its basically full of dissidents from two countries mainly, who have a personal stake at being right.

Dave:

We are talking about today's world. If you are talking about Europeans, I know you are doing a Dave. You are just saying something to be right. They are laughing Dave. I have traveled to Europe and other countries, because I am more open to hearing criticism about our country, people open up. People are not stupid, they sense who to say what to. You know that. I cant imagine that you give off an air of openness in that area. If you can seem wound really tight online, I cant imagine what vibe you give off in life.

I personally am much more conservative in real life yet people can sense my openness and they speak freely.

Both of you:

I remember being at a home that was full of people and when the news started relaying stories about the US, the entire place roared. My heart sank but I understood. When we re-elected GW people shook their heads and asked what was wrong with us. When they would hear his speeches, it was as if they were at a comedy club.

We can either deny that we are slipping or we can do something about it. Denying it is not patriotic, its just denying it.

This country is great and has even greater potential but I don't think we even think about a greater potential. We act as if we have arrived and truthfully we have so much more to accomplish. We have been the beacon for the world in so many areas, yet our current generations want to live off of the successes of the past and bask in their efforts and growing pains. We are super FAT and dumb and yet we continue to protest any any suggestion that we need to change.

Clavos, you know that the educated class in other countries is REALLY educated. They are well informed. I don't know if your parents are from Europe but if they are ASK THEM what the consensus is.

Why do you think the Dixie Chicks said what they did? The feelings about he US are palatable in the air.

You can always go back to the Utopian South Africa you socialist liberals created, Oh wait that has became one of the most dangerous cesspools in world. Why is that that white liberals and socialists always want to move to countries, like Canada, that are mostly white?

Why not move back to the Utopia you liberals created in South Africa? Where you have to live behind gated communities and be careful where you drive. The same thing you did here in the States, Why move to white Canada. Unless you're really a racist at heart.

...then you Canada you liberal socialists can destory that country too.

Zedd,

I am speaking people that live outside of the US, in today's world.

So am I. These people were living elsewhere, and moved here because it's BETTER.

Also, Miami has a different dynamic. Its basically full of dissidents from two countries mainly, who have a personal stake at being right.

There are significant numbers of people from all over the world, including Russia and virtually every country in Europe, the Caribbean, and Central and South America; FAR more than just two countries (which would those be? Cuba and where?).

ALL came because life is better here; they were not laughing at us when they lived in their home countries. And they didn't come here to be right (whatever THAT means!)They came to improve their lives.

And in the case of the Cubans, they WERE the educated class.

You miss the point entirely.

The reason many students in America are dumber then the other European nations is because those who run the massive education system in America are Liberal. They do not believe in giving bad grades or punishing bad students. The liberal run school system in America promotes liberal social political agendas over academics, self-hating history, and radical views over math and science. The worst schools in the Southwest are overflowing with illegal immigrants who are the poorest of the poor from Mexico and other countries (I am a Mexican-American and know the truth), many of them do not have the basic language skills. In the Southwest, where Latinos make up the highest student population, 40% percent of Latinos drop out of school, so what type of test scores are you going to get? That is because liberals refuse to see the real problems, but believe in "feelings" over thinking.

Liberals reap what they sow, but blame everyone else.

I suggest you move to South Africa, instead of white Canada, but most liberals and socialists won't because deep down they are really racists.

Zedd, you are enormously oversimplifying the attitudes of people outside of the US. You're taking what you may have heard from a few foreigners and what the American left generally assumes about overseas attitudes towards the US, and projecting these things as much more representative than they really are.

Zedd is certainly right about the attitudes of immigrants, but I'm not even talking about that.

I'm in regular contact with friends and relatives in Europe and the attitudes there are certainly not as homogenous as you make them out to be. Most people are very friendly and positive towards Americans even if they don't like our current administration all that much. They're also very troubled about the problems their nations are facing, and many of them are looking towards the US for guidance and solutions, because they've given up on their own governments.

Sometimes it seems like you listen only to the message you want to hear and ignore the alternatives perspectives which are out there. The world is a lot more diverse than you think.

Dave

The proof is that the Teachers Union backs EVERY Democratic candidate. They are one of the largest unions in the United States. I have seen their flyers when it comes to every election. On their pre-election mailers they overwhelmingly back every liberal or Democrat. Now if the Teachers Union backs every liberal and Democrat, and the United States has one of the highest budgets that goes to education...why are the kids dumb?

That is because the Liberal, Democratic loving Teachers Unions are the ones who are setting the agenda as to what and how things are being taught in U.S. schools.

So it seems that the failure for those "dumb" American teens can be placed right at the feet of the Liberal leaning Democratic Teachers Unions.

If you look at the culture, almost every Network, Newpapers, Actors, Music performers and University professor in America are liberal or socialist. So it seems that the main contributers to the "dumbing" of America are those who dole out the leftist American Culture. That rots the brain of any teenager.

If you are such an avid feminist where is your 'rant' about Gangsta Rap? Not one liberal has come to the defense of women in a major way and now many young girls believe acting like a 'ho' is cool.

If you grew up in South Africa...why do you want to move to Canada? In fact why is it all white liberals always say they want to move to Canada, instead of, lets say, Mexico? Maybe because Canada is mostly white. Why not move back to South Africa, a liberals paradise?

Why is it that most of those "fat" Americans are minorities. The majority of African-Americans, Latinos, and yes even Asians. Because in many of our former countries or ancestors countries, we monitories would be starving to death. Now we minorities have to worry about diabetes, heart disease and stroke, because we eat too much here in America. In fact many racial minorites are DYING to get to America...why is that? If it is so bad?

Try living in Russia and complain, like the journalist who were assinated.

Or maybe Cuba, the liberal paradise, where journalists are imprisoned.

In most countries you cannot complain about the government, but here in the U.S., you can.

In China and Iran they shut down blogs and arrest dissenters. You can always move there...oh wait...not white enough for liberals.

"Clinton let the genocide in Rwanda happen". Last time I saw there were other countries like France, China, Russia, plus hundreds of other countries, who did not raise a finger. The U.N. could've prevented that, and even had troops there, but did not do one thing.

Interestingly you don't put the blame where the blame lies...the United Nations. You cry about the United States getting involved in conflicts, but then wanted them to go into Rwanda? Where is your condemnation of the other countries who could've stopped the killing also? They could've created a coalition to stop the killing, but they didn't. That is not the United States fault, but the worlds fault.

"The one thing that stuck out in this piece for me was the whining phrase about being 'stuck in the US'."

Wow, Marthe!

I never thought I'd see the day that I agreed with you so wholeheartedly. The main reason I do not condemn you for your views is that you had the guts to pick up your behind and leave The Fortress when you were a lot younger than I. While I can't stand your own political opinions, I can admire your courage and pluckiness. Leaving the Golden Gate, guarded by a New Colossus (that will fall soon) to do something meaningful is worth admiration.

Adam, take note. Your are part of the Tribe. You can come Home and stop whining about America. heck, you can even live down the road from me in 'Eli and learn what it is to be a pioneer!

Hey Ruvy....stop the propaganda...the toilet that you call home is funded by US dollars - close to $3 billion last year...if the US falls think of the implications'

1. No more monthly welfare checks to you and you underemployed impotent tribesmen
2. No more foodstamps
3. No more free cheese.
4. The Muslims will pave over your hose and make a falalfel stand

So you and your so-called punk ass tribesman are reliant in the US to feed your families and put a roof over your head...bottom line you and your tribe of eunuchs..better shut up and keep cleaning the toilets...

JOM

Clavos,

I am an immigrant don't forget. Now pay attention....I didn't say that America is not a great nation. I am saying to keep it great, we must continue to improve ourselves.

Right now we are SLIPPING and the world is noticing that and chuckles at us because we continue to be arrogant in our decline.

Again I am talking about AMERICA TODAY. Not 15years ago or twenty years ago or 30. Yes early Cubans WERE the educated class that is why I stated that to you. Today????

You cant wait until things are totally ruined before you start to improve things. It is now, when things are going pear shaped that we should pull ourselves together. You cant possibly be arguing against that.

The reason that the world is slipping and sliding into a third world country is that we have allowed the underdeveloped countries to export their trash here while making it nearly impossible for white educated europeans to come here leagally...

Then we dumb down the standards to no hurt anyones feeling...

JOM

Maria

No one cares about that liberals (ooooh we are scared) thing any more. That was impactful in the 80's. Get with the times. Perhaps you should think of another term to jump on to and define as EVIL and spooky.

Its another millennium that stuff was for a more impressionable public. You do realise that your opinion of liberals was a manufactured idea by people who wanted to snow you into voting for them. It was only a political ploy. You fell for it and now you are on an international forum yakking away about it. How embarrassing.... By buying into those stupid ideas you become a pawn. All that us against them stuff is stale and doesn't fit into our current world. NEXT......

We need to unite and fix our country. The politicians have run it down while we were bickering over titles and who's flip flopping.

I am an immigrant don't forget.

As am I, my dear, as am I.

Replacing the educated Cubans of yesteryear are the educated immigrants from Venezuela, Nicaragua, Colombia, Ecuador, Russia, etc.

Right now we are SLIPPING and the world is noticing that and chuckles at us because we continue to be arrogant in our decline.

In my ongoing travels abroad, I don't find that people are "chuckling", and it's not because people are afraid to show their real feelings to me; I'm rarely spotted as an American, especially in LatAm. That's BS.

And exactly HOW are we "slipping?"

JustOneMan

Yep all of those White educated types who littered the slums in the early and mid part of the last century, who came from the slums of Europe.

Denial is one of the factors that contributes to our not growing. If we have a real perspective of what it took for us to be who we are, we can learn from that and get better. If we are delusional about who we are/were, there is no way that we are going to progress.

Are you aware that immigrants from developing countries in Africa and Asia are highly educated and are overwhelmingly represented in our graduate schools and in our science departments?

You do know that Africans are THE most educated people in Britain?

The world has changed. Wake up.

Check on the grades of immigrant and immigrants kids in your local schools. They dominate academically. While your grand kids are probably more concerned with Paris Hilton and a keg, those kids are told that they will be going to Harvard at 5yrs old.

Clavos

Are you seriously telling me that in Latin America among the educated class, there is no discussion of our bizarre state (for lack of a better description)? I find that VERY hard to believe. I dialogue with educated Latinos and they are prolific and engaging and are certainly shaking their heads at what is going on.

If you cant tell how we are slipping then we should even be in this discussion. The entire premise of this conversation is based on that observation. I won't be able to convince you in just a few back and forth posts. We are just on different plateaus as it relates to this topic.

I bow out respectfully.

While Rome slept..........

Maria

No we are dumb because we buy into ideas that we havn't really thought through. Liberal, flip flop, cut and run....... What does that really mean? We don't care, it just sounds good. DUMB.

JOM,

I'll keep this short and sweet. Take your money and shove it up your ass (if you can get your hands on any of it), take your soldiers and get them the hell out (before events lead to us forcing them out - in body bags), take your damned president and his mouthy snatch of a secretary of state, and keep them home, take your fuckin' puppets (like Stanley Fisher) home before we stretch their necks on a rope for their treason, and take your arrogant American attitudes and get the fuck lost.

You and your kind are NOT welcome in this part of the world at all. Just be grateful that I can't hurt you. Though, on second thought, you're not worth the bullet.

More of that sweet reason the Middle East is so well known for...

Ruvy...does that mean you have finally destroyed your American passport? Or do you still need it as your exit strategy when the shit really hits the fan...

And I see you are still incapable of addressing the facts...funny how you tell me to take our money and shove it...while you continue to take this feces stained money EVERY DAY!...gee your hands must smell pretty bad! As the colonel would say "Finger lickin good!".

How ironic..you dare to threaten to kill me with a gun and bullet paid for with my American tax dollars...like an ungrateful mongrel...biting the hand that puts the food and water in its bowl every day of its life!

Gee...I was just thinking I never met an arroagant Israeli...lol...lol...lol

JOM

PS Fuck You, you ingrate!

CLAVOS: Are you unconcerned by the still increasingly strong trend of being concerned about appearances rather than issues? Not that that is a uniquely American trait of course.

Zedd..here are some stats right off a UK website on poverty...

Two-fifths of people from ethnic minorities live in low income households, twice the rate for White people.

More than half of people in Pakistani and Bangladeshi households are in low income households.

People of African, Bangladeshi, Caribbean and Pakistani descent are all twice as likely as White people to be out of work but wanting work.

Black Caribbean pupils are three times as likely to be excluded from school as White pupils.

Black young adults are three times as likely as white young adults to be in prison.

hmmmm just the facts --- gee I can hear them laughing its so loud!!!

JOM-A same list would be applicable to the US and its minorities.
The difference is that the British have a free public health care system and that 50 million Americans have no health insurance at all.

And what is this obsession that the US is the greatest country in the world and everyone wants to come and live here and everyone is envys the US. Many people are happy were there are in a ystem that sets different values and not desperately seeking the US. Thats complete garbage.

And third world immigrants want always want to go to countries that are richer than theirs.

Paul..rather than accept the facts you trya nad make excuses...ILLEGAL immigrants and those with specific economic backgrounds are brining this country down....France and Spain will be paying a huge price for letting in 3rd worlders that refuse to assimilate and as in the US they will bring us down to their level..not create something better...

Your liberal play book is getting old...look at the facts...in the US LEGAL Asian immigrants get the program they participate in government, school and culture...the ILLEGALS have no intention to step-up and be Americans..instead they are content raising another generation of dishwasher and gardners...

JOM

JOM

I never said immigration or illegal immigration doesn't cause any problems. They do that and I've experienced that from living in Germany. But as you've stated it is a problem in many countries and it cannot be completely avoided.

--and the US is not the center of the universe.

ya know how one person can merely say "hey" to you and you want to hit them in the face? and then another person can throw you out of a moving truck and you still love them for it???

well, that's how I feel about these latino illegals. Even though they are illegal I don't care. I like them. I like all these Mexican restaurants. They aren't filling the prisons. They're not much trouble. Let 'em stay and don't let it happen again.

Nugget..."They aren't filling the prisons." LOL LOL

Illegal aliens are NOT necessarily coming here to work. Lou Dobbs recently reported that 33 percent of our prison population is now comprised of non-citizens. Plus, 36 to 42 percent of illegal aliens are on welfare. So, for a good proportion of these people, the American dream is crime and welfare, not coming here to work.

JOM

JOM

yeah right everybody is so fond of receiving those BIG FAT american welfare checks ...

what are you talking about. American welfare payments are ridiculous.

Paul2...this issue is Ruvy loves to bash the US while he lives on public assistance in Israel that is funded by 3 billion a year in US tax dollars...

JOM

Zedd 54:

Are you seriously telling me that in Latin America among the educated class, there is no discussion of our bizarre state (for lack of a better description)? I find that VERY hard to believe

I didn't say that at all. Re-read my comments.

What I DID say is that significant numbers of the educated classes of several LatAm countries are moving to the USA and Europe, fleeing the imposition of repressive, socialist governments by the likes of Hugo Chavez, Evo Morales, and Rafael Correa.

I also said that in my travels I don't find people laughing at US; I didn't say they're not talking about us.

Christopher 59:

Not sure what you're asking. Rephrase? Example(s)?

If you're speaking of the mass of Americans, I doubt very many care one way or another what we look like to the rest of the world.

Most would be unable to find the world on a globe...

JOM-- you stated in #65 that illegal immigrants dream of American welfare. Thats wrong. No one would aspire that, it be better to go somewhere else.

Clavos ...In most other contries either they cannot afford to purchase a globe, arent allowed to purchase a globe or like the Europeans still believe the world is flat and curse Christopher Columbus every chance they get...


JOM

The Israeli economy has an annual GDP of around 166 billion dollars so the US contribution is a little short of two percent. Now how much has been spent on the bogus war on terror?

#71: In which JOM shows his understanding of the world is as profound as his grasp of Economics and Politics. It must be comforting living in that rhetorical bubble of yours...

"Europeans still believe the world is flat"

JOM -- your obviously unsuited for a rational discussion

Clavos: I'm saying that everything from military policy, international relations and even things like the USA's self-image and national political issues are being dealt with in an increasingly cosmetic manner that leaves the real issues neglected. Again, not uniquely American.

Well, Chris, your original question asked if I was unconcerned about the trend of being more concerned about appearances than issues. I'm not.

Why do you ask? Was it something I said?

gee I guess you guys really let me have it... lol lol

I laugh in your ugly anti-America faces...

JOM

How about this -

America isn't the center of the world. Neither is Western Europe. The US is respected in Eastern Europe, and in much of Africa and Asia. We're aspired to by the people who have gained freedom with the fall of Eurocommunism. We're heroes to the nations fighting Islamic terrorism. We're the economic engine of the Americas and the Pacific Rim.

I find it insulting to the rest of the world that America is constantly judged through the eyes of England, France, and Germany. I'd much rather be respected by Slovakia, Lebanon, and India.

Baronius

the question is why is it so important for you to be "admired" or to be a "hero".

And i've never heard any outstanding African or Asian admiration for the United States and not in Lebanon either.

[quote]The reason that the world is slipping and sliding into a third world country is that we have allowed the underdeveloped countries to export their trash here while making it nearly impossible for white educated europeans to come here leagally...

Then we dumb down the standards to no hurt anyones feeling...

JOM[/quote]

Just On Man, rock on. I agree with all you're saying.

Paul, I can at least confirm that the Lebanese love the hell out of America. That's why they all live here now.

Dave

... Lebanon must be empty by now

You think you're making a snarky comment, Paul, but in fact more than a third of the population has left the country in the last generation, mostly to the US and Australia.

All the reasonable people have moved out, leaving the crazies behind to fight over the ruins.

Dave

Brazil Has More Lebanese than Lebanon

Paul, maybe I wasn't clear enough.

The American Left says "America is a pariah". The American Right responds "we don't care about the world's opinion". I'm saying "America is a pariah among nations I don't respect".

Apparently you seem to disrespect all those that are not fond of "your" country.
What a convenient coincidence.

Paul, Paul,

What he is saying is that Britian, France, and German public opinion should not be the only basis of what we judge ourselves on. It seems rather Euro-centric. Infact criticism of the US take Western European public opinion as "the World." Why are these countries more Important than, say, India, Indonesia, Taiwan, Polland, or Argentina.

Truthfully, I care more about India than France, more about Japan than Germany, but that is just me.

Aku - Thanks. I'm not getting anywhere on my own.

France stood by while Saddam tortured and killed his population, because they liked the oil and the appearance of being a bridge between Europe and Islam. They agreed to support a conditional UN resolution against Iraq, then left us in the lurch. You'd better believe I have more respect for Indonesia and Pakistan. They're in a struggle for their survival against our common enemy. So are France and Saudi Arabia, in their own ways, but they're not ready to admit it.

This article is about national pride. Sometimes being a leader means that old allies don't follow. I'm proud of where we've led. I'm not going to feel ashamed because some countries have failed to join the battle. I am bolstered by the response of many of our natural allies against Islamic terrorism - if that's a personal weakness, so be it.

The point is, it's not just a coincidence that I respect the countries who agree with us. It's consistency. They're the ones who are making the moral choices I believe in. The American Left has a tendency to weight the opinions of Western Europe higher than, say, the Indian subcontinent. But Western Europe hasn't been earning that deference.

Barronious

I can understand that -- if that's of interest to you --, that opinions need to be respected worldwide.

You imply that Iraq was invaded to "prevent torture" and that it was part of the war against terror.
That was wrong from the beginning and it has proven to be wrong and affirmed by multiple sources, even the US senate. There was no Al-Quaeda or 9/11 link. Even the other arguments, these ominous weapons of mass destruction, proved to be completely wrong. Mr. Powell himself said that is presentation of false "evidence" (mobile weapons units) at the United Nations was the most embarassing moment in his career. An so, since Iraq was not threat to the US, you cannot seriously assume that this was or is a battle against a "common enemy", thus a war on terror.

Furthermore many other smaller and economically disadvantaged nations or military regimes have been pressured by the US to take part in the war or have their aid cut. And that is well documented.

Western European nations had several reasons for not participating, and one of the main reasons was
that they feared a massive ethnic conflict errupting. And they weren't so wrong about that.

As cooperation against terror is concerned, cooperation on all levels (economic, judical and miltarily) between "Old Europe" and the US has been significant. In Afghanistan, in Lebanon and elsewhere.

Paul, I'm pretty sure I've said more about Brett Favre than Al Queda on this thread.

I didn't follow the first sentence of your last comment.

Dave

Most people are very friendly and positive towards Americans even if they don't like our current administration all that much.

Yes you are right they don't.

Sometimes it seems like you listen only to the message you want to hear and ignore the alternatives perspectives which are out there.

Dave we have heard good things about America that is not anything new. People always express liking Americans and loving our model of democracy. They do say that we are cocky and sometimes rude but they like us for the most part. However this change in opinion globally is a new phenomenon. We need to look at it closely. Hanging on to what we want people to think about us and not paying attention to how views have and are changing is irresponsible.

In business one would never carry on knowing that there are aspects of their operation that are failing; deciding to only focus on the good things about he business.

JOM

Your post about British immigrants is unthought through. The who came here from Europe last century AGAIN lived in slums, were the largest criminal element, etc.

It looks like everyone is following the NORMAL path.

Still Africans are the most educated in Britain.

Baronius


People read and access news in Lebanon and India. BELIEVE me, the view of the US has changed!!

Yes we are liked but we are loosing our cache. Lets just deal with that and stop being in denial.

I don't know how to respond to "stop being in denial". "Ok, I will"?

BELIEVE me

Why? Where's your hard evidence?

Can you point to polls taken in India? Polls that indicate what you're asserting?

You do this all the time, zedd. you make unsubstantiated statements; then when some of us don't buy them, we're "goobers" or "silly" and have to "believe" you.

Uh Uh. Not without verifiable (not anecdotal) proof.

Zedd and the rest of his ilk are in a permanent state of denial...

JOM

JOM-- if you haven't read enough of zedd's comments to know what sex SHE is, why do you bother responding?

baronius: "I'm proud of where we've [the U.S.] led."

ok. where is that? into a fucking ditch? we're on the other side of the world and we can't get out! ("we'd win if it weren't for your liberal mouth.")

we've got iran and north korea threatening to nuke everything in sight. ("we can nuke them back! into the oblivion from which they arose, mu-wa-ha-ha-ha!")

south africa is beating us in human rights. ("you call them human?")

we're teetering on the edge of the fucking crusades in a nuclear world, and we're pushing just as hard as they are. ("bring it on!")

genocide goes unanswered in africa. ("that's europe's fault too!")

you jingoist [Edited].

What has America done in my lifetime that is good?

I can think of two straight off the top of my head: its magnanimous attitude to the defeated combatants of WWII - the restoration both of their economies and their societies, including the turning of Japan into a constitutional monarchy with a parliamentary democracy, and all done without removing all vestige of their former cultures.

In fact Germany, Japan and Italy fared better in the post-war carve up of US aid and influence than did its former ally Britain, which is still paying off the remnants of a huge loan from the US that saved it from bankruptcy (but at least they stumped up the cash).

And yes, I know all three had the sh.t bombed out of them by the western allies ... but you reap what you sow, as unpleasant as it is. At least the US didn't behave like the Soviet Union, which was hell-bent both on brutal revenge and the enslaving of whole populations.

As for the current administration and the ill-informed/duplicitous bureaucrats pulling the strings behind the scenes: they are probably most worthy recipients of the title of blithering idiots, rather than Americans in general.

Some of the things you've cited have little to do with the US, but I do agree with you on one thing Adam: on military spending ... imagine the quality of affordable, universal healthcare Americans could enjoy if the US military budget was cut even by a paltry 5 percent.

The big problem for America is the polarisation of its political views, the lack of genuine democracy (two party system representing the interests of billionaire corporate backers and lobby groups, NOT the people) and the amount of time it spends wringing its hands over what everyone else thinks of it.

True imperialists don't care about that. Which means you are just driven by corporate neo-colonialism ...

In the meantime, if you want change, put power back in the hands of the people and get out there in the streets and make your views known like the Vietnam era.

A hundred thousand dissenting voices in the streets are better than one on the internet wilderness ... and at least the law says you can.

JOM: this is fer you bud.

Arch wrote: "No objectivity whatsoever. Just blind, insistent anti-Americanism"

Arch, criticising the policies of your own government is not anti-American at all ... it might even be as American as apple pie, as it's supposedly what America is founded on.

Wasn't that the reason Bush, Blair and Howard said we were going to war in the first place?

By their own definition then, wouldn't criticising them simply be exercising the rights we are given in a democratic country (especially as they WERE lying about the real reasons)?

If everyone was forced to have the same view, wouldn't it be a totalitarian state (like Saddam's Iraq or Stalin's Russia or Hitler's Germany)? Ash or anyone else here writing piffle is part of the democratic process, as he points out too.

You can't be accused of being un-American for exercising a basic right guaranteed by the US constitution and enshrined in American common law.

You can't be accused of being un-American for exercising a basic right guaranteed by the US constitution and enshrined in American common law.

Actually, making that accusation is an expression of the same right. And JoM isn't objecting to the speech, he's objecting to the content and what it represents.

Read Zing's #97. That's not reasoned criticism of America, it's unreasoning hatred.

The key difference is between being angry with things America or Americans have done, and being angry with America just becuase it IS America.

Dave

dave: eh?

that's response to someone. someone who said they were proud of where this world has gone over the last few years, and that other countries are pussies for not following us.

not everything up there is america's fault. it's just where the world is.

you chowder-head, READ!... i ain't angry with america, at least i wasn't then... i'm angry at the spot the world's in. if that's where we've "led" it, then what the fuck are we doing leading anything?

"unreasoning hatred..." yah, go on...

The problem, Zing, is that we didn't lead most of the world anywhere. They went there all on their own. We've indulged them with their farce of a UN and bailing them out of problem after problem and asked nothing in return.

It's bizarre - principles we claim to believe in domestically we just throw out the window when it comes to dealing with other countries. I mean, what happened to the ideas of personal responsibility and accountability and self-reliance? Shouldn't we expect other countries to live up to those ideals?

Dave

Dave said: "The key difference is between being angry with things America or Americans have done, and being angry with America just becuase it IS America."

I agree with the first part of that post above Dave, in regard to Arch's position, but I still think even that part I've lifted here is a basic right of free speech guaranteed by the system we live under (although in reality it's not always how it pans out, is it? No offence, Dave, but Americans don't always see how oppressive their governments and their agencies can be in regard to their own citizens).

IMO, as long as people aren't going around blowing the sh.t out of people, or plotting to do real harm, all the above is OK. That's where the line is crossed. I'm reluctant to use moonraven as an example here, but she is a good case in point as she obviously isn't exactly enamoured of her own country and by her own admission is still a US citizen. Yet by voicing her *cough* strong opinions about her own government, she is simply exercising the right that her citizenship is meant to afford. The fact she doesn't like the place one iota and doesn't want to live there is up to her and is largely irrelevant. She doesn't have to like it. No one does.

I can think of other similar examples here too, where the same stuff applies, including some oppressive actions by the police and security agencies. The big difference for all of us I guess is that we all in theory at least DO have recourse to the law and an independent judiciary to argue our cases (provided you can afford it and unless you're David Hicks and are locked up in that disgrace known as Guantanamo Bay).

Guantanamo Bay is the only place in Cuba with food, medical care, and freedom of religion.

Well, that might be how you see it Baronius but it's still a disgrace. David Hicks waiting five years for a sham trial before a kangaroo court - what a fair dinkum joke. And don't talk to me about US justice in this case.

Had he been tried in his own country - where the writ of habeus corpus still forms the cornerstone of the criminal justice system (for now) - he'd have been tried and very likely served his sentence by now. What's going on there in Guantanamo Bay and in Washington around this stuff, military commissions and all, is just a load of hot co.k and bullsh.t.

I don't disagree with the US tracking down terrorists or suspected terrorists, but at least afford them the same rights they'd be entitled to under the US criminal justice system.

Because in this case, the key word is suspect. A suspect - and everyone's entitled to the presumption of innocence - shouldn't be sitting in jail for five years without even facing a charge.

GUYS LET ME TRY THIS

I am a woman and I love fashion. I strive to look lovely as frequently as possible. I have a high sensitivity to the aesthetic. Today, if I encountered a Micheal Kors dress (at a nominal rate) I would pounce!! However, I am disgusted with the fashion industry. I find it to be out of sink with what women are. I find it to be almost vulgar in its portrayal of the human condition. I find its faux "artistic expressionism" eye rolling. In many cases its just disrespectful. I am turned off by men who are clearly needy social outcasts interpreting women and in many cases getting it very wrong. But give me a finely sculptured bag or shoes and I am almost orgasmic.

In the same way, people love Americans or the model of America, however there are things about America that are ridiculous. One major thing is our need to be loved by all, always. It is ANNOYING. Do realise that most immigrants LOVE their motherland. They truly LOVE the feel, of day to day life (the interaction with people). They love the traditions, food, etiquette and even smells of their motherland. You've heard an Irish person talk about Ireland so poetically, even while it was in "rubble" because of conflict.

People love the country that they are IN also. They may not be happy with the politics/economy but they LOVE their country. To expect that people should fawn over another country all of the time is weird. We have been making fun of other cultures forever. In our eyes, no one's got it quite right. Well people see our quirks, especially now and they get a chuckle.

We have trained the world not to tell us what they REALLY think. We are the big dogs on the play ground, unless people fawn all over us, we will take our ball home.

Earlier I posted about how we think we are generous when in actuality we are the stingiest of all industrialized nations; how we give to poor nations with a condition that they use all of our machinery and experts until it ends up costing them more for whatever project that we "GAVE" to, than if they'd just done it on their own. They end up with more debt and we act as if we did them a favor when we actually raped them. Yes people want to come here but they don't like us as much as we think they do.

Like me and fashion. I find the hubbub ridiculous but hand me a bag and see a perfectly poised women melt into butter.

Baronious

We kidnap people and put them in Guantanamo Bay. They were eating in their countries of origin just fine.

Zing wrote (to Dave) " ... you chowder head".

Lol. Nice one Zing ... one of your best. I assume it means the same as the great Aussie term "you knuckle 'ead" (the silent H being obligatory, a bit like French but not really).

Zing

("you call them human?")

Watch it!! I may have to retreive a spear from my attic and hurl it in your direction.

mu-wa-ha-ha-ha!

Funny!!!

I love diablolical laughter. You'd think that someone would say "oh no, I just did the diabolocal laugh, oh god I'm crazy!" But no they just proceed with their plans to "TAKE OVER THE UIVERS mu-wa-ha-ha-ha!"

I love how you spelled it out perfectly! Chuckles!!

STM

I hope your diplomacy is noted by all and appreciated.

Yeah Zedd, you are right about American neo-colonialism: it was telling that we and British were the only people foolish enough to go to war with the US in Iraq from the outset, and then neither were going to be included originally in the reconstruction of Iraq's infrastructure - the contracts all going to US companies. They've still got a bit of work to get through, too, just quietly ...

STM

What is sad is that most of us wont know what you mean by neo-colonialism... sigh.

Someone added this nugget on another thread.

STM: don't go telling the Yanks the truth now, you know it upsets their delusions...

;-)

I wonder what they meant by that?

But its just me...

Zedd: we were talking about the proliferation of firearms in the US and the blind belief that the 2nd amendment - an 18th century anachronism in 2006 - guarantees the right of all citizens to bear arms. It doesn't. It was designed to ensure the keeping of a standing militia (now the National Guard) but is today trumpeted as the justification for allowing every second lunatic and every third semi-sane person (hello Dave!) to own a gun. My right to comment on this: I'm not American, granted, but it has an affect on me as I have visited the US from time to time. And one of my mates was shot in Boston in really bizarre circumstances. Luckily, he lives to tell the tale.

STM

I know what you were talking about. I was making a smart alec point about the fear of the truth and delusion as observed by people outside of the US.

Christopher, what's with the italics? Was it me?

[Yes it was, Ms Zedd. You not only used the old school capital I, which has now been replaced by em, but you used traditional brackets to close the tag, not the more/less than arrowhead brackets. Bah! lol]

Sorry Zedd. It's 12.30am here, stuck at work and I'm tired - thinking is even more skewed than normal. Yes, I think the italics are down to you. I don't know how, but they have to be closed off somehow or they proliferate like rabbits.

"Guantanamo Bay is the only place in Cuba with food, medical care, and freedom of religion."

I wonder what you personally would say after you've imprisoned for five years of your life with no charge at all and then released with a simple "sorry. we thought you were someone else."

You want rights granted to you that you deny others.

Zedd..you make statements with no facts..." actuality we are the stingiest of all industrialized nations"

This is a capitalist society...I am sure you are in the same camp blaming this adminstration for trying to be the worlds police force..you cant have it both ways...

The next time you buy your clothes try not to of think of all those Asian 9 year olds working 20 hour days for 24 cents...

JOM

Zedd is very right and her statements are based on facts JOM, its just something you don't want ot hear.

Net Offical Development Assistance
as percentage of GNI (Source: OECD-2004)
-----------------------------------------

Norway 0,87
Luxembourg 0,85
Denmark 0,84
Sweden 0,77
Netherlands 0,74
Portugal 0,63
France 0,42
Belgium 0,41
Ireland 0,39
Switzerland 0,37
UK 0,36
Finland 0,35
Germany 0,28
Canada 0,26
Spain 0,26
Australia 0,25
Austria 0,24
New Zealand 0,23
Greece 0,23
Japan 0,19
US 0,16
Italy 0,15


You just dont want to hear what you don't like.

Official development assistance doesn't count emergency aid or private donations (where the US does somewhat better) so as to cast the US in as negative a light as possible. I like the results, that means American dollars are staying in America and we're not subsidizing failures.

Which are the greatest contributions to third world countries? A few billion dollars or the development of vaccines for polio and smallpox, the invention of the computer and internet (thanks Al), and the increased productivity of western farming methods and technologies.

How much credit did you give the US (and UK sometimes) for those?

This is simply socialist rhetoric warmed over, attempting to make the weakminded feel guilty for other nation incompetence and failures. From each as they are able to each as they have need is a recipe for human mediocrity and a setup for catastrophy.

It is obvious that you have a problem with facing reality, just as some others, simply because you are obsessed with the assumption that the US is the best society in the world in absolutely all respects.

If you're faced with offical facts, you're denying them or you're saying that they aren't valid.

The Organization on Economic Cooperation and Development has no interest "to cast the US in as negative a light as possible". What makes you think that ? And where do you get that from ?

And an offcial statistic is not a "socialist rhetoric."

And your contradicting yourself: if you think that developing aid is wasted money, why do you argue the US actually giving a lot more.

It doesn't make any sense.

Good try Paul2...but you only tell half truths to support your disdain for this country and its citizens...here are the real facts..

Even though the your numbers show US GOVERNMENT aid to be poor (in percentage terms) compared to the rest, the generosity of the American people is far more impressive than any other country.

Americans privately give at least $34 billion overseas--more than twice the US official foreign aid of $15 billion at that time.

American citizens give more aid than ANY OF THE COUNTRIES ON YOUR LIST. Gee I wonder why you left that out!

Again your positions is based upon mistatements and illogical arguments...

JOM

I noticed you failed to address my comments on our technological contributions, whose benefits far outstrip the welfare money we send out. I suppose that's an inconvenient reality for the hate America types.

R&D Expenditures

US $330(Billions of US$)
China $136
Japan $130
All 15 western EU countries combined $230

The technology created by the US, and many others, is what has driven the global explosion in wealth, prosperity, and population. Handouts are nice, but they're a byproduct of human advancement not a cause of it.

Good job Doug...these guys just cant see reality through their hatred...

JOM

jom+doug

no one spoke of hatred besides you. and that's obviously your own problem.

the statistics i stated state what thay state. nothing more and nothing less and i didn't claim anymore.

its obvious to me that the us gov't could spend more than a country like greece, but thats obviously beyond your comprehension.

the other claims you made are worth mentioning but they can only be seriously assessed by naming a source and by combining offical and private aid broken down to the GNI.

zedd, quoting me, then speaking for herself, said:

"("you call them human?")

Watch it!! I may have to retreive a spear from my attic and hurl it in your direction."

ack. i was talking about gay people. sorry. it was late.


as for doug and jom--congrats! you just back up what everyone's been saying... "i don't hate america, i hate our fucked up government!" woo! fuel on the fire, bitches!

Re. #122. Paul shows a real talent for providing partial and deceptive data. What you have there is a list of government foreign aid, not a list of total international aid. The US leads the world in private donations for international assistance, which combined with our government aid puts us near the top of a comprehensive list. When the lists are compiled by socialists, they assume that all aid must come from the government. But in a free, capitalist society that's not the case.

And BTW, I hardly think giving out a lot of aid to poor countries is something to be proud of, since it's that aid which is largely responsible for supporting and perpetuation the oppressive governments which keep those countries poor and oppressed.

Dave

Dave

Since I made the statement let me clarify, I was speaking of the United States, not individual citizens of the planet.

As a nation, we are the stingiest. Heck we wouldn't even pay are dues at the UN. As individuals thanks to those horrible liberals like Winfrey, and Gates.

Your statement about how we give more as individuals because we live in a free and capatalistic society is just STUPID Dave. I rarely use that type of language but DANG!!! That is just STUPID. You think that people give because of capitalism? Try our tax laws.

Clavos

Thanks.

Zing

Shame on you!!

Paul2

Thank goodness for you!!! Sanity reigns!!!!

Why are you so open minded????

LOL on several comments. Nice.
I have lived on three continents (earned my Ph.D. in Scotland) and I must say that until you have lived - not just visited, but lived, in other places, you really do not know what you are talking about if you speak poorly about the U.S. OR you are just plain short-sighted, probably by some kind of political and/or religious idealism.

Sure, we have plenty of blights in the USA, but I'll tell you, every time I return I am damn happy when the border agent takes my passport and says, "welcome home, Mr. Baker." Don't get me wrong, I actually enjoyed living in these other countries and I enjoy the countries I visit each year, but no other country has as many people trying to get by the borders as the USA...and with good reason. They aren't coming here because we are the cruel leaders you find in several African countries. They aren't coming here because they want to enjoy the economy of Mexico, or for that matter the EU, which has a tremendously low (sometimes stagnant) economy and job growth rate. They aren't coming here so they can live in the "alien" quarters Muslims find in France.

I work in an office that at one time had 13 nationalities (we are down to around 10 now). I used to love it when our more liberally minded Americans started up on the worn-out "blame America first" chorus. Typically our naturalized citizens would shut them up! Either one of the managers, who fled communist Romania, or one of our programmers, the son of a Korea man/wife who had their little business, land, and everything else taken from them in the communist takeover and fled with only the clothes on their backs and their two children.

I remember being chided by a couple of British professors while watching a Super Bowl in Scotland at 3am, laughing at silly Americans for getting weepy during their national anthem (and we were being hosted that morning by an American!). We have problems and we need to keep addressing them...but in my opinion if you are not proud of your country you should either go live somewhere where you CAN be proud OR shut up while you work to make it better. And guess what? I don't mind if you think making it better means trying to do things that I highly disagree with - that is your right and obligation. But don't trash the very country that allows you the freedom to open your mouth and spew out venom. Quite frankly, it's just rude.

I'll never forget when the flag burning issue was being handed down by the Supreme Court - some small town in Alabama passed a city ordinance that it was against the law to assault a flag burning protester, punishable with a $10 fine. Good ol' boys were lining up outside the county courthouse to pay some of those fines "in advance."

America - Love it OR (Leave it OR Shut up)

Since I made the statement let me clarify, I was speaking of the United States, not individual citizens of the planet.

And I'm not talking about either, I'm talking about the citizens of the US collectively.

As a nation, we are the stingiest.

A meaningless statement. There's no obligation to destroy third world countries with foreign aid, and there's nothing wrong with preferring to address needs in other countries through private charity rather than government aid.

What on EARTH is wrong with making support for charity voluntary instead of taking money from everyone by force and giving it to the pet projects of a few members of the governing elite?

Heck we wouldn't even pay are dues at the UN.

That's a whole different issue, and there are lots of reasons not to suppor the disaster that is the UN.

As individuals thanks to those horrible liberals like Winfrey, and Gates.

It's hardly all liberals. Christian charities send more money and resources overseas than any other source.

Your statement about how we give more as individuals because we live in a free and capatalistic society is just STUPID Dave.

No Zedd, as usual, the stupidity is in your inability to understand obvious truth.

I rarely use that type of language but DANG!!! That is just STUPID. You think that people give because of capitalism? Try our tax laws.

Which are part and parcel of our capitalistic and individualistic approach to government. They exist because as a nation we made the decision to let people choose for themselves how to use their money to help others, rather than funneling it through the government.

Dave

zedd: "Zing, Shame on you!!"

ok. the quotes in parenthesis are the typical (maybe exaggerated) right-wing response to what i have to say. so i say that s.a. is beating us in the human (ok, civil) rights dept, and that a bad, bad right-winger would say "you call them (gay folk) human?" sigh... why must i be misunderstood?

Zing

I knew you were kidding goober.

I was kidding too. Going along with your bigoted right winger act. You know they like to be chided (like rappers). It gives them street cred. They get a chance to do their Limbaugh act. If you were serious I would have posted a novel :o)

It's OK Zing we all know you're "down for the struggle". Say whatever you like!

Dave

Just stop.

Giving help to people with AIDS is not destroying a country.

We destroy countries because we say we are giving but we are actually creating more loans to us. If I give you 10 cents for a piece of gum and tell you that you have to buy it from me and I sell it for 30 cents, you are not really giving me a dime, you are loaning me 20 cents (with interest).

Its a crime.

Now...

America- is a country. America is stingy.

Americans- are people. We give because we are people not because we are Americans. People share their last loaf of bread. Women will breast feed a child that is not theirs, regardless of nationality in refugee camps. Is that international aid or foriegn aid?

Which are part and parcel of our capitalistic and individualistic approach to government.

I guess you are anti capitalisim now. You want a sales tax. STUPID!!!!

Just stop.

I suppose you'd like that, but the truth is a juggernaut which cannot be stopped.

Giving help to people with AIDS is not destroying a country.

It is when that money gets diverted to the coffers of a dictator who uses it to build up his military, genocidally murder thousands, and doesn't let any actual aid get through to those who need it. Without that aid money to prop his regime up the dictator might fall.

We destroy countries because we say we are giving but we are actually creating more loans to us. If I give you 10 cents for a piece of gum and tell you that you have to buy it from me and I sell it for 30 cents, you are not really giving me a dime, you are loaning me 20 cents (with interest).

Loans aren't all that we do, but the same problems apply with them as with outright aid. The efforts are only effective when the government of the troubled nation allows it.

America- is a country. America is stingy.

No, America has a different approach to providing aid. Not believing that it's government's role to be the main source of overseas aid is not stinginess, it's a philosophy of what the role of government is and is not.

Americans- are people. We give because we are people not because we are Americans.

No, because we are Americans we understand that government isn't the answer to problems like this and that our individual efforts are what really matters.

I guess you are anti capitalisim now. You want a sales tax. STUPID!!!!

When did I say I wanted a sales tax? And a sales tax isn't automatically anti-capitalist.

Dave

#141 - "I suppose you'd like that, but the truth is a juggernaut which cannot be stopped."

How can you type that with a straight face?

The data of government aid cannot include private aid because it is simply a list of government aid. And you can talk as much as you want: the richest nation in the world is not really out on sharing.

None of the countries in the list are socialist, with this claim you're disqualifying yourself.

"Private aid" is a very controversial issue for many reasons, also because foreign immigrant workers send savings back to their families in other countries. And that cannot be attributed to the donor country.

If you add gov't aid and charity the US is still second to last as you can see here.

You ridicule yourself by saying development aid isn't any good, when you're claiming in the same paragraph that all of the aid given is wasted.

You might as well admit to yourself that you just don't give a f*ck about anyone else.

Three words: The Marshall Plan.

We've done (and do) our share...

That has nothing to do with developing aid.

But you're right, the Marshall Plan has been very successful. Thats why the US received most of the money back from countries that received money from it.

STRANGE STORY BUT STAY WITH ME, it gets weirder.

Tanna is an island in the Republic of Vanuatu. It is 12 miles wide and 25 miles long. Vanuatu is a Melanesian island nation. It lies in between Fiji and the Solomon Islands

In this island there is a cult which worships John Frum. It's not at all clear that anyone by that name ever actually visited the island. Nevertheless, a cult has grown up around him. The John Frum movement commemorated its 50th anniversary day before yesterday.
Some people suspect that it came from the GIs who would say I'm John from America. They believe his spirit lives in the active volcano on the island of Tanna. Most of John Frum's followers live at the foot of the volcano.

None-the-less, on the February 15th the natives tie cans around their ankles and write USA on their chests while dancing. Some men make up riffles with bamboo form lines like soldiers, marching in unison. They are followed by a rag tag band which plays the Star Spangled Banner.

The cheif said when interviewed "He's our Jesus and John will come back."

Here's the really weird part... I know....

American tourists Marty and Patti Meth listened to villagers play the Star Spangled banner on bamboo flutes. They say it made him feel patriotic.

"I think it's really nice to see Americans welcome here since in many places of the world, we're not so welcome these days. I don't want to make too much of a political statement out of this, but this is what our country's all about and should be welcome."

Huh???
It gets better....
They went on to say,

"I think Americans would be extremely proud to see a country in the south Pacific so favorable and appreciative of American democracy."

What is wrong with you guys!!???

That has nothing to do with developing aid.

Excuse me? What other nation, victorious (along with our allies, of course) in a war rebuilds the other participants, including the defeated ones?

And how is that not aid?

Thats why the US received most of the money back from countries that received money from it.

So, because it's mostly been paid back, it's somehow less of a gesture?

The Marshall Plan was an INVESTMENT PLAN. The US invested in the economies of the couontries that were on the losing side in WWII so that it could have a viable market for its products.

You're right, is was a great gesture, it was a whole lot of cash and it was very successful.

But it has nothing to do with the little money being granted to third world countries TODAY.

sorry, my computer just crashed.

#147 and it is aid...

Paul,

Re your point that we aren't giving enough today:

Much (if not most) of the aid we (or the UN) DO give to Third World countries never reaches the people it's intended to help, thanks to the corrupt government officials that are endemic to those countries.

As long as the aid is being ripped off, what's the point in giving it?

Clavos-

I don't think that most of the money is wasted, but it's probably quite a bit.

It depends in what form the aid is being granted. I think that it would be better to give it to NGO's than directly to the governments, to have more control.

Who said that EVERY developing country is run by a dictator? Why are we operating on that premise?

For some reason it seems as if its really cool to be dumb, on this thread.

Most developing countries are virtually new nations. After colonialism they had to start afresh. It took us 150 years to get our act together. After 100 years, we nearly killed each other off. Why would we expect countries that are 40, 50 years old to be organized and well run? And we had the benefit of getting the innovators from all over the globe.

It doesn't happen. When it does, its an anomaly. It just goes against human nature.

So, because it's mostly been paid back, it's somehow less of a gesture?

No, its just not AID. Stay focused Clavos. The topic is not on nice gestures. We are talking about giving. Not loans.

Paul,

I think that it would be better to give it to NGO's than directly to the governments, to have more control.

I agree with that.

I have personally seen USAID goods (marked with the USAID logo) for sale in markets and stor