Illegal immigration is a serious problem. It objectively exists. Don't say that it has been invented by some "puppet masters".

I can tell you honestly: There is no objectivity. We have declared "war" on a minority in the U.S. Black people are caught somewhere between the rhetoric of how hispanics damage them and whites are terrified of becoming a minority. I find a few things interesting about this movement; we haven't allowed this type of open prejudice since the sixties and the U.S. govt. conveniently places hispanics in the caucasian category on the U.S. census. The reality is, white people do not consider hispanics "white." The point is, we will very soon be a minority, no matter how many we deport. This is reality. I am so sick of people directing their anger at uneducated immigrants. I thought we were better than that. We allow politicians to run for office using illegal immigration as a platform, we persecute and degenerate people on the streets. THIS is who we are? If so - we are cowards. We need to demand accountability and stop organizations like Tanton from poisoning our society. But we won't - because it isn't convenient.

As a student of immigration I think it is totally wrong to classify all anti-immigration individuals and organizations as racists. In fact there are two anti-immigration factions. One is genuinely concerned about the American worker and the other is not and hence racist. Among the first group are congressmen such as Brad Ellsworth, Heath Shuler and Nancy Boyda, Robert Goodlate, Thelma Drake and Virgil Goode as well as Senators such as Claire McCaskill and Jim Webb. These folks are genuinely concerned about immigration hurting American workers, but they also take care of other worker interests such as the minimum wage and their opposition to outsourcing and in general free trade.

Now to the second group. To pass the racism test, a politician, individual or an organization had to have used the American worker as the cover to support the anti-immigration activity but do not support or remain silent about the minimum wage. Now who passed the racist test? Congressmen Tancredo, Zach Wamp, Nathan Deal, Marsha Blackburn, Marilyn Musgrave, Dana Rohrbacher, Duncan Hunter, Steve "the so-called supporter of the proletariat" King, Dan Burton, Mike Pence and the majority of the GOPers who voted against the minimum wage legislation. To this you can include organizations such as FAIR, CIS, American Patrol, the Minutemen and a number of other anti-immigrant groups. Among the racist experts the face of the white American female racist stands out...Heather MacDonald of the Manhattan Institute. Reading all her stuff I am convinced that she would have been a part of the Massive Resistance against integration in the early 1960s had she been an adult at that time. Ms. MacDonald not just uses the American worker as the cover to stop immigration, but uses the blacks....oh boo hooo!! poor black people, they are getting screwed by American immigration policy. Of course, then by the same token she turns around and opposes affirmitive action, says that blacks are unqualified and whites are more qualified and should get the slots in the UCLA law schools. Equality of opportunity she says, not equality of results. But, where is she as the racist Georgia legislators try to create a separate county for rich whites in Atlanta so that poor blacks do not have an opportunity? Nowhere to be found. Where is she regarding minimum wage and outsourcing? Nowhere to be found. At least Lou "the looser" Dobbs opposes outsourcing and at least covers his racist tracks (exposed recently as a racist as so far he has not criticized his anti-immigrant friends for voting against the minimum wage).

Kudos to you ProfEssays for pointing out the obvious.

The author of this article wants to pretend that no problem with ILLEGAL immigration exists by demonizing a few people who have spoken out against it and by using inaccurate innocuos terms like "undocumented," and "anti immigration."

Mr. Reidhard the correct terms to be used are "ILLEGAL ALIENS," "ANTI ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION." It seems as if you, along with the rest of the pro ILLEGAL ALIEN crowd want to paint everyone who is anti ILLEGAL ALIEN as a racist when this is just not the case.

Anti ILLEGAL ALEN sentiment exists because citizens actually expect others to respect the soverign law of this nation.....imagine that huh Redihard. It exists because most of the ILLEGAL ALIENS come from Mexico and refuse to assimilate into American culture, including learning to speak english. I can recall a news story recently where several ILLEGAL ALIENS in Maywood California took down the American flag and raised the Mexican flag at a US Post Office. I'm sorry but this is unacceptable and it is usually the PRO ILLEGAL ALIEN groups like La Raza, Lulac etc that espouse racist vitriol, not the anti ILLEGAL ALIEN citizens of this nation.

If you can't be objective in assessing the problem but would rather cherry pick certain anti ILLEGAL ALIEN individuals who may have done or said questionable things in an attempt to claim that there is no problem with ILLEGAL ALIENS maybe you had just better keep your worthless leftist rhetoric to yourself Mr. Reidhard. Two posts chock full of it are more than enough.

What part of "illegal" do you idiots not understand. Race has NOTHING to do with it. White illegals are as unwelcome as brown, black, yellow or plaid ones. They are ILLEGAL. They use ever-decreasing national resources such as public housing & medical care, & free schooling for their kids, and they DON'T pay taxes because they have FAKE SSNs or NO SSNs or STOLEN SSNs, f'chrissakes. Far too many of them are the dregs of the countries they come from, encouraged - or even sent deliberately - by their governments to come here & sponge off us. They have little or no education or skills, and increasingly are criminal elements who deal in violence, drugs, & prostitution. They displace legitimate US citizens who need affordable housing, public assistance, subsidized schooling & medical care, & unskilled jobs. In NC, where formerly the mill workers were black, they've been almost entirely displaced by illegals who work cheaper, without benefits the government demanded for the native US-black citizens. NC is only one place they've taken over.

People of all races are welcome who have the courtesy & law-abidingness to enter legally, observing our laws & follwoing the rules. NO ONE of ANY race is welcome who crashes the line & basically breaks & enters.

What part of this do you not comprehend?

"Mr. Reidhard the correct terms to be used are "ILLEGAL ALIENS," "ANTI ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION." It seems as if you, along with the rest of the pro ILLEGAL ALIEN crowd want to paint everyone who is anti ILLEGAL ALIEN as a racist when this is just not the case."

Comment: No. FAIR is opposed to all immigration. You need to look at their website. There are even folks in FAIR who oppose immigration of spouses and minor children of US citizens. So, sorry FAIR is a racist organization, not because it opposes all immigration legal or illegal, but because it uses the American worker as the cover. However, when it comes to outsourcing and jobs moving abroad and the minimum wage, it does not give a damn. So the issue for FAIR is not illegal immigration...it is all non-white immigration. You need to get your facts right.

"What part of "illegal" do you idiots not understand. Race has NOTHING to do with it."

Comment: Nancy dont believe in using personal insults but you are the idiot here. The issue is FAIR..you idiot need to go and view their website.

"They displace legitimate US citizens who need affordable housing, public assistance, subsidized schooling & medical care, & unskilled jobs. In NC, where formerly the mill workers were black, they've been almost entirely displaced by illegals who work cheaper, without benefits the government demanded for the native US-black citizens. NC is only one place they've taken over."

Comment: Typical racist drivel from using blacks as a cover when it comes to illegals but affirmitive action...no!!! White Americans excecuties and consumers are responsible for illegal immigration. They want everything for cheap from airline tickets to vegetables and of course the execs pay themselves high salary. Most politicians who oppose immigration legal or illegal are racists because they do not stand for the American worker...Tom Tancredo is the prime example and FAIR is another. If you are for the American worker support the MINIMUM WAGE INCREASE...then you will have some legitimacy in opposing illegals and immigration in general..eg. Virgil Goode and Thelma Drake. If you use the American workers and blacks as a cover to oppose immigration and fail to support the minimu wage increase you are a RACIST.

I DO support it; I've written to my congressmaggots about it for some time now, including letters about how dare they award themselves fat pay raises while the American worker starves without one for 7 years. Have YOU done as much that's constructive - or do you just bitch here on BC? Illegal immigration is just another form of corporate slavery - you're absolutely right in that: as usual, it's the rich exploiting the poor & working folks, pitting them all against each other, while they (the rich) continue to screw everybody as usual. If you've ever bothered to read any of my other comments on US economic subjects here on BC, you'll know my POV on both issues.

It's my lucky day. I've been waiting for S.J. Reidhead to step in it, and she did. Oh no, dear, I won't be telling where she got it totally wrong. I'll let her keep on lying such that if she and the Council ever wind up on opposing sides in a court of law, we can use those gross misrepresentations of fact to eviscerate her credibility

Okay, here's a voice from Mexico.

1. The correct term is NOT "illegal alien", it is "undocumented worker". So let's cut the sci-fi shit and get real.

2. Immigration is not only a problem of this hemisphere--it is also a problem in Europe. It's a result of colonialism and neo-colonialism. It is, in short, the chickens coming home to roost. And it needs to be dealt with as such.

3. Compassion is a big part of being a real human being. So is sharing what you have with ones less fortunate. You are not going to take it with you.

4. Of course it is racist! Why shit around trying to cover your white ass?

Because that's not the issue: breaking the LAW is the issue, and nothing else. Also, it may be un-PC to say "illegal alien" in Mexico, but here in the US, that's what it's called because they're illegally here, and they're not US citizens, hence they are indeed 'aliens'. The SF use of it is applicable to fiction, not real life.

Nancy,

Don't give me that Law and Order horseshit.

No one on this planet is an alien.

Uh, well, maybe Dave Nalle.

nancy: "breaking the LAW is the issue, and nothing else."

nancy, you are usually pretty calm and logical... and usually seem to be quite a decent person. if breaking the law were the only issue here, then that would assume that people were coming here just to break the law. obviously, there is some reason WHY they are breaking the law, so that's part of the issue, isn't it?

why is it that you can't look at both sides of the issue here? there are americans hiring these people, and they will continue to do so, just as people will continue to come here undocumented, illegally, whichever.

the end result here is not going to be a wall, or mass arrests/deportations. those are just temporary fixes. and they really don't fix anything. they ruin peoples' lives and hopes. (don't tell me that they deserve it, because that's horseshit.)

you're so hotheaded about this issue. what gives? you must have some reason for being so closed minded about this, but i can't figure it out. you have an unreasonable, un-nancy-like hatred for these people, who aren't out to get you or hurt you or your wallet... they're here because it's the best opportunity they have, and what's more american than that?

Not only that, but I would be willing to bet that I, as a Native American, am one of the very folks on this thread whose origins are NOT from another country (and even I have a sliver or two of European genes in my pie).

It's racism, no doubt about it. Scarey brown people have become the Bogey Man--whether they are from Latin America--or from the Arab countries.

Zing, haven't you read anything I've ever said in more detail about immigration? Anybody of any color who's LEGAL is more than welcome to the family. But illegals are not; partially for the economic reasons cited, partially because it's just plain unfair to those who DO follow the laws here, mostly because it's just plain ILLEGAL. Goddamn it, what part of THAT can you not get through your head? It doesn't matter if they're politically repressed or unemployed back home; we have people here who are citizens who are repressed and or unemployed. That's too bad, but it ain't our problem to cushion everybody in the world. They need to go to their governments & bitch about it if their needs are not addressed - NOT sneak in here. As for US employers, I would hit them with even harder sanctions: jail time & stiff fines, whether they be private people like the asshole down the street who goes picking up illegals to do his housework, or the multinational corporation which hires them by the trainload, like Smithfield or Cannon, since they are not only helping violate immigration law, they're cheating on their employment taxes as well. The point is, the laws are not something we pick & choose what we obey. If they're bad laws, change them. I'm all for changing the laws & streamlining immigration procedures: they're a scandal & a shame. But the facts are that these are the laws, and UNTIL & UNLESS they change, these people are here illegally, have no right to be here, & have no right to jobs, resources or anything else - including my sympathies, & neither do their cheapskate slave-labor employers who are so busy cheating the government & all US citizens who do pay their share of taxes.

And that's the end of this argument as far as I'm concerned.

"Zing, haven't you read anything I've ever said in more detail about immigration? Anybody of any color who's LEGAL is more than welcome to the family. But illegals are not."

Comment: Then you are not on the side of Tancredo, Heather MacDonald, FAIR or Tanton, but a very sensible woman.

"It's racism, no doubt about it. Scarey brown people have become the Bogey Man--whether they are from Latin America--or from the Arab countries."

Comment: Absolutely right in the majority of cases. Tanton and FAIR are the epitome of racism.


"It's my lucky day. I've been waiting for S.J. Reidhead to step in it, and she did. Oh no, dear, I won't be telling where she got it totally wrong. I'll let her keep on lying such that if she and the Council ever wind up on opposing sides in a court of law, we can use those gross misrepresentations of fact to eviscerate her credibility."

At least CofCC is honest unlike FAIR and oppose mail order brides, marriages to foreigners. You guys are honest that you have said that you want white racial purity. You want to put blacks in segregated areas and return to the days of Jim Crow. I know where you guys stand. So my argument is not with you guys.

"Immigration is not only a problem of this hemisphere--it is also a problem in Europe. It's a result of colonialism and neo-colonialism. It is, in short, the chickens coming home to roost. And it needs to be dealt with as such."

Comment: Vestiges of colonialism still exist. Take farm subsidy, welfare for white people in this country. What do you think the farmers would do if we force them to hire Americans at higher wages. They will come to Congress for more subsidies. Let us end colonialism and at least make a start in ending illegal immigration. End the farm subsidy and put these white welfare recipients out of business. The illegals will start returning home. No need for amnesty.

nancy: "it's just plain unfair to those who DO follow the laws here, mostly because it's just plain ILLEGAL. Goddamn it, what part of THAT can you not get through your head?"

because i don't give a fuck about legal or illegal. laws are arbitrary. not every one of them is right.

"It doesn't matter if they're politically repressed or unemployed back home; we have people here who are citizens who are repressed and or unemployed."


give us your tired, your poor... ever heard of it? it's in the water. got something to do with america, freedom, a better life, all that mumbo.

"That's too bad, but it ain't our problem to cushion everybody in the world."

that's true. it isn't our job.

"The point is, the laws are not something we pick & choose what we obey."

sure they are. fuck the law. you have to get over this law thing. that's just words on paper.

"If they're bad laws, change them."

yep. if we changed the law, then all your economic reasoning would just vanish. what you have to realize is that illegal immigration can ONLY be stopped by making legal immigration a viable alternative. give them citizenship, ssn's, tax forms to fill out, make them pay for the services they get. then they won't be cheating anyone, now will they?

"And that's the end of this argument as far as I'm concerned."

you're wrong about a lot of stuff.

sigh. you're only real argument is that these people are here illegally. yes, they are here illegally. but, no matter what is right or wrong, they are going to be here. we might as well profit from their presence rather than let them get away with any "sponging." don't you agree with that?

it's YOUR attitude that makes this the problem it is. if any of them come here because they think they can get free healthcare, etc, then that's wrong--so let's take that opportunity away.

Not so far as I am concerned.

Since NAFTA (which I worked AGAINST during the last months I was in the States) went into effect in January of 1994, every year at least 500,000 Mexicans have been FORCED to risk life and limb crossing the border to the US.

Why?

Because under the terms of NAFTA, Mexico must accept US products and services--in detriment to their own. Mexico's agricultural sector has been the most devastated of all--and that's the sector that the folks who are crossing the border without documents to work in the US are from.

Like I said, the chickens are coming home to roost. Deal with it.

In that case, congress needs to rescind the law that confers automatic citizenship on anyone born here to illegal parents, and they need to rescind the law that compels the states to educate illegals' kids regardless.

The first illegal I ever met, BTW, was NOT brown, but a white woman of Polish ancestry, who had fake papers & was going to college, subsidized by the state of NY. I'm as gung-ho for tossing her out & making her pay in full plus interest for her sponging as I am anybody else of any other color. She snuck in thru Canada.

And do something to change the bad laws.

Everybody in the US is still passing the buck: you're not the bad guy, racist pig, warmongering sleazeball--it's always somebody else.

Bunch of lazy fucking addicted consumers--that's what you are.

NAFTA is wrong, & I've always held it to be so.

Yeah, we are, most of us, and the richer the worse they are, too. BTW, have you ever tried writing a complaint to a congressmaggot? All you ever get is a "thank you for your letter vote for me" piece of crap back. The only way to do anything is to vote - & hope other voters aren't as stupid as you know they are.

Every DAY your money subsidizes the murder of civilians in Iraq. To the tune of billions.

And you whine because someone might be getting a financial benefit he or she is not entitled to?

What a crock. Undocumented workers have paid billions into the Social Security system--for benfits they will NEVER be able to receive.

How's that for a fair and reasonable system?

"In that case, congress needs to rescind the law that confers automatic citizenship on anyone born here to illegal parents, and they need to rescind the law that compels the states to educate illegals' kids regardless."

what? that's just going on evil. you're talking about kids.

on the polish tip, i was never calling you a racist. just absurdly law-abiding, i suppose. just because something is against the law does not mean it's bad. it's not like you did ONE GODDAMN THING when you followed that law.

moonraven: "Bunch of lazy fucking addicted consumers--that's what you are."

i am addicted to fucking, that is true. the way i do so disproves the "lazy" portion of your insult. consumer? i guess so. i'm kinda hungry. might go get a muffin. maybe some coffee. i might take a crap and wipe my butt with that toilet paper i bought last night. looks soft.

You folks are too busy follwing Bush's orders to get out there to the malls and get in debt up to your eyeballs to bother with any real political action.

oh, moonraven. that's not true for all of us. for my part, i've been to more protests and voting boothes than i have to malls over the last 6 years. debt? a little. education, travel and an appetite for music and ladies really drains the coffers de zing.

I am sorry to hear you are paying for female companionship.

jesus christ. i'm on your side in this whole thing... just taking exception to your painting of all americans as lazy bums...

you know as well as i do that women cost money, no matter where that money ends up.

No, I don't know any such thing. I am a woman of independent means.

As for painting folks from the States as lazy bums--I believe that is the stereotype usually applied to Mexicans.

What's sauce for the goose....

ok... well, if you look back through the comments, you'll note that i don't apply any such stereotypes.

as for being a woman of independent means, i congratulate you, but you can't convince me you're blind to the fact that USUALLY the man pays when out on a date. it's not always the case. it's just polite. that might not be the case with you, but it's that way for most of the world...

why do i bother writing such stuff? you are angry about something. i've never had any problem with you, i'm on your side in this and just about every other argument, yet the first chance you get, you call me a lazy, whore-fucking, debt-ridden consumerist mallrat-windbag... what's up with that?

You are taking this WAY too personally.

Here in Latin America it is still traditional that the man pays on dates, although that is gradually going the way of the horse and buggy here, too--but it hasn't been the case in the States since I was an undergraduate (and I graduated in 1966!)

i'm taking it personally? fine. actually, i just love a good nonsense argument.

if paying for a date hasn't been the man's job since 1966... then what have i been doing my whole dating life? i certainly don't always pay, but if it is a formal date, you know, get dressed up, do your hair (ladies), put on some nice shoes, drink some wine, eat food that's overpriced and undercooked, nice walk back through the city with the obvious intention of getting laid... i'm almost always gonna pay for those dates. and i don't mind one bit. makes me feel like a man! provider of stuffed salmon and scallops in a delicate white wine sauce with herbs! damn it!

That's silly. You're just using it to justify expecting sex.

Or else you are definitely dating the wrong kind of women.

At least you probably are not dating any Native Americans--almost all of us are wildly allergic to seafood...

i expect sex every night, and there ain't one thing wrong with that. expectation does not always equal reality, and that's fine. and the women i date are the very models of fidelity (except for a couple of them). the girl i am currently seeing is a complete masterpeice of humanity: gorgeous, ambitious, intelligent, funny, cute, interesting, emotionally mature (most of the time), and great in bed. what's wrong with that?

jesus. do you really see misogyny in my statements? i don't think that me paying for a date (which is just polite--and i wouldn't if i didn't want to) equates to a justification for "expecting sex."

that's not the payoff. the evening is the payoff. if that includes some good food, a nice walk, some cute little thing to laugh and get drunk with, that's great. if it includes screaming orgasms, i'm all for it. i like sex. it's fun. i could deal with it everyday, maybe twice a day. i would certainly be willing to show a girl a good time (and have one myself) if it increased my chances of getting laid. it's just the way most humans are wired.

i love women. i love sex. i love sex with women. what's wrong with it, really?

The issue here is not illegals. It is FAIR. Is FAIR racist? Yes. Is Tanton racist? Yes. Is Tancredo racist? Yes. Are all folks who oppose immigration, illegal or otherwise racist? No.

illegal immigration? what?

oh yeah...

(but i like sexy-talk better.)

This is what FAIR, Center for Immigration Studies, American Patrol, white skin worshipping American Evangelicals (in reality pagans) and Heather MacDonald are scared of...

"And given that non-Hispanic whites are now a minority of the Texas population, they eventually will be a minority of Lone Star State voters. Unless Republicans unexpectedly become dramatically more popular with Texas Hispanics or African-Americans, that state will become less reliably Republican within the next two or three presidential elections. Because Texas has 34 electoral votes, the prospect of its being in play would be terrifying to the GOP." cookpolitical.com

It is not their interest in American workers or black people. If I had committed atrocities that whites in Texas and other states committed against blacks, I would be scared too!!

Moonraven:

I gutted that "Social Security" argument of you and others in the aftermath of the Brokaw report on immigration

Louie:

You didn't "gut" squat. It doesn't play on the ground--where it counts.

Chell:

Opposition to immigration is of course RACIST. There is no other reason to oppose it.

Zing:

Yep, I think you're either misogynist or less than 16 years old. Take your pick.

moonraven... and i think you're a 60 year old grump who hasn't had good sex in some time.

if i'm a misogynist, then so is every other man who ever paid for a date.

as for any question of maturity, you sure don't show much of your own, unless maturity means bitterness, anger and assuming the worst of everyone who dares cross your path.

"Cute little thing to laugh and get drunk with" pretty much says it all.


Misogynist, he asked--disingenuously....

I am 62, fabulous looking, and my sex life is more than satisfactory.

I certainly don't have to deal with men who think that I owe them a roll in the hay because they bought me a plate of enchiladas!

"Play on the ground?" Qu'est que c'est?

Also, how would you respond to the truths about the Mexican government having its own southern border with Guatemala militarized? Too, Mexico has a lot of nativist restrictions hard-wired into its constitution.

I would direct you to the CSP link that I link to on this entry, but it's a dead link now. Other than what I allude to in my blog post, those restrictions include:

* Non-natives of Mexico cannot own real estate by themselves

* Naturalized citizens of Mexico can never have the full set of civil privileges and rights and liberties that native Mexicans have (inasmuch as the Mexican government does recognize them truly --ed.)

* The Mexican constitution gives native born Mexicans the explicit privilege to detain physically suspected illegal aliens into Mexico and transport them to law enforcement. In other words, the Mexican constitution gives native born Mexicans the privilege of being "Minutemen," but our version cannot and does not physically detain illegal aliens, they just record their presence for the (futile) hope that the U.S.eless Border Patrol would use it.

Oh, and I did not "assume the worst" until YOU stated how much money you wasted on women....

it says nothing, and you fucking know it.

i like attractive women. do you like attractive men? i like to drunk with them.

how is enjoying conversation and good times with an attractive woman misogynistic?

i think you hate men if this is all it takes to make you think i hate women.

your argument is absolutely absurd.

i never said it was a waste of money, and i certainly didn't say that me buying a lady food means she owes me sex, that's something you decided to believe because you wanted to.

Women are not "cute little things".

It seems that you are angry about something--and apparently it's the opposite gender.

some women are cute. some women are little. all women are things, if you want to be literal about it. "cute little thing" is a bit of vernacular. it wasn't meant to mean anything.

how the hell do you gather that i'm angry about women when all i said is that i don't mind treating my dates to dinner?

lady, it ain't the 60's anymore. feminism won with a majority of decent human beings. but, there are still things called chivalry and being polite and gentlemanly that feminism can't kill in the name of equality. some women like being treated like ladies. some think that denies them some right. i don't really have a problem with either end of the spectrum, but if a woman wants to be treated with traditionally chivalrous ideals, then that is how i shall treat her. if she wants to pay her half, she can do so. whatever the woman wants, she shall have.

the 60's are over. women won. they've got their equality, should they want it. if they don't, they can keep their superiority.

Louie:

Racism is racism. No matter who is the racist.

At no point have I ever implied that there are no racists in Mexico. In fact, had you asked me--instead of just assuming that I denied that there is racism here--I would have told you that Mexico is a very racist country. Yep, here the darker your skin the more you are looked down on.

As for your Mexican info--latter day expert:

Non-Mexicans cannot own land on the COASTS by themselves.

Naturalized citizens have exactly the same rights and privileges as Mexicans EXCEPT that they cannot be President.

The Minuteman bullshit you threw up is just that--bullshit. Mexicans do prey on folks coming from Central America--but NOT to turn them over to Immigration authorities. They frequently ROB them.

As for the militarization of the Guatemalan border--that's impossible to do. So they let social darwinism take its course.

You have clearly never spent any time in Mexico.

"Opposition to immigration is of course RACIST. There is no other reason to oppose it."

Comment: As my earlier discussions indicate I dont necessarily agree.

"Non-natives of Mexico cannot own real estate by themselves

* Naturalized citizens of Mexico can never have the full set of civil privileges and rights and liberties that native Mexicans have (inasmuch as the Mexican government does recognize them truly --ed.)

* The Mexican constitution gives native born Mexicans the explicit privilege to detain physically suspected illegal aliens into Mexico and transport them to law enforcement. In other words, the Mexican constitution gives native born Mexicans the privilege of being "Minutemen," but our version cannot and does not physically detain illegal aliens, they just record their presence for the (futile) hope that the U.S.eless Border Patrol would use it."

Comment: That is why US is well ahead of Mexico in economic development. If we want to become another Mexico we should adopt all these regulations.

I think this thread has degenerated into irrelevance and nonsense.

Zing,

I told you you were taking this all WAY too personally.

And you are protesting WAY too much.

I think you feel guilty as hell, but that's not a comfortable feeling, so you deny it.

Better not to do things or hold attitudes that produce guilt feelings.

Your statement "all women are THINGS", is another classic bit of misogyny.

Chell: Why are you rrepeating the same bullshit?

some definitions of "thing" for you, moonraven:

3. anything that is or may become an object of thought.
12. a living being or creature: "His baby's a cute little thing."
15. something signified or represented, as distinguished from a word, symbol, or idea representing it.
1. An entity, an idea, or a quality perceived, known, or thought to have its own existence.
2. a. The real or concrete substance of an entity.
b. An entity existing in space and time.


all women are things, all men are things, all anything are things. i stated it that way because i knew it would get you angry. it's wonderfully easy to do.

"I think you feel guilty as hell, but that's not a comfortable feeling, so you deny it.
Better not to do things or hold attitudes that produce guilt feelings."

nope. not guilty of misogyny at all. i absolutely adore women, for all the reasons one could or should or would. i don't know where you get off psychoanalyzing me because i don't mind being traditional in certain ways towards women, if a woman so desires.

i know this is the wrong place for it, but...

hey ladies and gentlemen out there, if a man pays for a woman's dinner, does he do so because he hates her (and all women)?

You're still blowing smoke, zing.

You have revealed YOURSELF as a macho misogynist pig.

Nobody forced you to do that. It was 100% your choice.

You "adore women", hahhahahahahahahah.

you are truly ridiculous.

me, macho? my roommate would be shocked!

if anyone is revealing something (or blowing smoke), it is you.

if you aren't a complete man-hater, which i wouldn't presume to know, then you are just an argumentative person, willing to jump to conclusions without the slightest thought for what is actually being said.

if that is the case, i think i have found a kindred soul~~~ <3 <3 <3

At least the St. Louis CofCC has my gender correct. Contrary to popular opinion, I am a life-long registered Republican. I consider myself fairly conservative, but am 'reasonable' in my out look of candidates and policies. I am not a bleeding heart liberal. Once upon a time I was considered to the right of Margaret Thatcher, but unfortunately, thanks to the influx of folks from organizations like the CofCC and various other extreme conservative organizations and philosophies, I am now considered a moderate, even though I have never changed my opinions except for the death penalty.

The niceties over, I just want to thank all of you for confirming my theory that when it comes to illegal immigration. All civility has been cast aside on both sides of the issue. Until civility can return, and reasonable logic can prevail, nothing is going to be solved. Next, I find any use of profanity to be completely unnecessary and a hallmark of a poorly educated mind with no vocabulary. I do not respond to profanity.

We need immigration reform. It needs to be done in a climate where all this hate rhetoric ceases and we can come up with a lasting solution. Unfortunately, until the nation of Mexico does something to rein in their out of control plutocracy which is basically responsible for the problem, nothing - no wall, no troops, no increase of BP agents will be able to solve the problem. I live in a small resort town in a border state. I see this plutocracy up front day in and day out. They are rude, arrogant, and have no regard or respect for anyone other than their own social class. Where I live people dread seeing them arrive in town. Because the standard of living in Mexico is so low, and wages are on a serf level, people in the US who would be considered 'middle' middle class live like kings. Nothing is going to change until Mexico is forced to institute a living minimum wage. This is not going to happen, so learn to live with the consequences.

Yes, I think the whole movement as it exists today has been influenced and promoted by John Tanton and his extreme racism. There are several theorists who have influenced him, one being a gentleman named Samuel Huntington, a Harvard scholar, who is like a god to Tom Tancredo. Huntington is an xenophobe who is terrified of anyone with a Spanish accent. Anti-immigration and anti-illegal advocates like the CofCC would gain more credibility if they would also advocate the wholesale removal of the second largest group of illegals, blond and red haired, blue and green eyed people from Ireland. Unfortunately, the entire anti movement loses credibility because the fact that illegals from Ireland make up the second largest demographic of illegals. You never hear of anyone going into an Irish Pub and demanding to see their green cards.

I don't know how many people have investigated what goes in with an ICE raid or what happens to people and families. As a Christian, my heart goes out to these people. Unfortunately, because of Tanton based organizations, we are spoon fed miss-information as to the true nature of the Mexican illegal immigrant. Heather MacDonald, mentioned above, is one of the worst offenders. So is World Net Daily. Living in a border state where we have a large Hispanic population, I've come to realize we have nothing to fear from people who speak Spanish as a first language. Some of my dearest friends are of a Hispanic background, coming from families who have been here since the Conquistadors. Their Republican pedigree is impeccable. Frankly, I find the racist, anti-Hispanic rhetoric promoted by the likes of MacDonald, Tanton, and WND to be extremely offensive.

Great. I am glad you recognize racism for what it is.

Unfortunately, the Mexican plutocracy is only one half of the problem here--the other half is the gringo plutocracy.

As for Huntington, before he was stirring the pot in regard to Mexicans, he was stirring the pot in regard to Arabs in his Clash of Civilizations pile of baloney.

We can all see how helpful it was that he provided a cut-rate sociological alibi for The Bush Gang. Really solved a lot of world problems.

He will be just as helpful in regard to folks whose first language is Spanish, I am sure.

As for your complaint about language, what's profane is not writing the word fucking: it's fucking over the folks around you.

I am a professional educator with a PhD earned 35 years ago, and I call things as I see them.

SJR:

1. I agree with you about Mexico's internal problems. But your open borders solution will forever preclude any resolution. Mexico's northern border is their plutocracy's safety valve.

2. Poor Mexicans? What about us? 12 Americans a day are killed by (ahem) "undocumented workers," that makes more than 4,300 a year, which is almost a 9/11 and a half more every year.

3. The Irish are white. I don't think they'll cause the racial dispossession of white America. The immigration issue is a racial issue; to say it's not is as amateurish as to see a cake and say that bread flour is not an issue.

4. What happened to your Louisiana friend? He hasn't posted to his blog since 12/11, and nothing that I can jerk his chain around with since well before that.

Moonraven:

You're right. There is no "Clash of Civilizations" between the Caucasian world and the Arab world. That big hole in the ground in lower Manhattan was just a geological cave-in.

That proves that there is a clash, whether you believe we bought 9/11 on ourselves totally, or the perfidy is 100% their fault.

Nonsense.

That big hole in the ground can be attributed to the US government.

Ever hear of the Maine? The Reichstag Fire?

Don't be so gullible.

BTW, I just came back from the Middle East. No clash of cultures for this bird.

"What a crock. Undocumented workers have paid billions into the Social Security system--for benefits they will NEVER be able to receive"

That's the crock. It's actually quite the opposite. Most ILLEGALS don't pay taxes as they work for cash yet they receive free health care and other social service benefits.

And it's no racist to oppose ILLEGALS. You can say it is all day but it's not about race. Maybe you should change your name from Moonraven to moonbat!

I've heard of the Maine, and the Reichstag, and the Gulf of Tonkin. And my mind does gravitate toward "alternate explanations" of such things. With that having been said, I think the "official" version of 9/11 is just about entirely true in regards to the perps, and mostly true when it comes to the means, though I think there's a preponderance of evidence to suggest that internal explosives helped the nefarious cause.

Also, on Flight 93, I believe the "Let's Roll" story, but I also believe that our Government rightly aimed to shoot 93 down. I tend to think that the "Let's Rollers" succeeded before the Air Force could.

Arch Conservative:

Scroll up, I put up two URLs that disprove Moonraven's argument re Social Security. They're both a bit long, and very boring if you're not fond of long-winded beancountey explanations.

It's ALWAYS about race. And I WILL say it all fucking day, [Edited].

Do your homework. And see if you can read this article from the New York Times: Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security with Billions
By Eduardo Porter, The New York Times April 5, 2005

globalaging.org

bush is evil and all, but don't you think that if he wanted to concoct some bloody "terrorist" attack as reasoning for war, he would have done it elsewhere?

not that he has shown any special care for american lives... but he could have, you know, run some airplanes into buildings in toronto or something, then use the "if you attack our allies, you attack us" line of reasoning to get us involved.

who knows... that probably would have lead to more international support and more internal support for the war. if he wanted to fake a terrorist attack in order to push us towards war in the middle east, attacking his own citizens is probably the silliest way to go about it.

There is absolutely NO reason to believe the Bush Gang's version of 9/11.

And EVERY reason to believe otherwise.

Or do you pick out ONE item from a stack of a million lies and decide to believe it just to be kind?

I have a bridge in Brooklyn you might be interested in buying and INSURING to the hilt before the Saudis strike again.

This is too stupid for me.

I am out of here.

Not silly at all, zing. No need to take risks attacking another country.

You idiots bought the story--hook, line and sinker.

Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the US citizenry.

"Yes, I think the whole movement as it exists today has been influenced and promoted by John Tanton and his extreme racism. There are several theorists who have influenced him, one being a gentleman named Samuel Huntington, a Harvard scholar, who is like a god to Tom Tancredo. Huntington is an xenophobe who is terrified of anyone with a Spanish accent. Anti-immigration and anti-illegal advocates like the CofCC would gain more credibility if they would also advocate the wholesale removal of the second largest group of illegals, blond and red haired, blue and green eyed people from Ireland. Unfortunately, the entire anti movement loses credibility because the fact that illegals from Ireland make up the second largest demographic of illegals. You never hear of anyone going into an Irish Pub and demanding to see their green cards."

Comment: Thank you!!

"I don't know how many people have investigated what goes in with an ICE raid or what happens to people and families. As a Christian, my heart goes out to these people. Unfortunately, because of Tanton based organizations, we are spoon fed miss-information as to the true nature of the Mexican illegal immigrant. Heather MacDonald, mentioned above, is one of the worst offenders. So is World Net Daily. Living in a border state where we have a large Hispanic population, I've come to realize we have nothing to fear from people who speak Spanish as a first language. Some of my dearest friends are of a Hispanic background, coming from families who have been here since the Conquistadors. Their Republican pedigree is impeccable. Frankly, I find the racist, anti-Hispanic rhetoric promoted by the likes of MacDonald, Tanton, and WND to be extremely offensive."

Comment: Thank you. If you want to see the face of white American racism no need to look inside the hoods. Just look at the face of Heather MacDonlad...the quintessential white American female racist who would have supported massive resistance had she lived her adult life in the early 1960s.

i don't really buy the "bush did it" argument at all. i don't buy his version of events completely either. but i don't presume to know everything.

i see no proof for the "loose change" version of events i am supposing you are believing... "hook, line and sinker."

"No need to take risks attacking another country."

um... no need to take risks attacking another country so that you have an excuse to attack another country? how do you come around to that logic?

it's true what you say about "underestimating american intelligence..." but it's just as true as anywhere else.

G. Chell:

And the problem with the "massive resistance" (i.e. to forced integration, mainly in the South and in northern cities) in the 1960s is?

Judging from the history of the last four decades, it turns out that the "massive resistance" was mostly correct. The "massive resistance" hasn't ended, it has morphed into another form, called urban sprawl.

"Underestimating American intelligence?"

I'll take my chances with a random name out of the Cheyenne, Wyoming phone book rather than the Karachi, Pakistan phone book any day.

The intelligence of the typical American didn't bother Bill Buckley any, who said he would rather be governed by the first thousand names in the Boston phone book than the Harvard faculty, and that was coming from someone with a very erudite, academic persona.

Reidhead has written something far more dangerous than fiction in that there are a lot of facts in the opinion piece but an amazing number of factual errors and gross distortions. Since some things are true, the reader has to think that any of them could be true. But most aren't. In almost any case people, characters and organizations get defamed with false information.

I know something about the facts because I have been working full-time in the environmental sustainability/economic justice arm of the immigration-reduction movement since 1991. And I have known John Tanton since the mid-1970s when I was an environmental reporter for the Grand Rapids (MI) Press and he was one of the environmental leaders whom I covered.

When a column like this one is so far off the factual track, I try not to assume the worst about the writer -- that he/she has simply made up these things. A quick look at this writer's webpage makes me want to assume an honorable intent. But I wonder if the writer has used sources which already were grossly inaccurate and then perhaps made some faulty assumptions what even those meant.

Almost all of this information originates with the SPLC website. That article was rife with factual errors when it first emerged. Then many writers distorted what SPLC wrote well beyond anything that was there. I have seen the most outrageous things written that claim some connection to the SPLC article.

There is no way I want to take time to try to correct every error in this column. I do know that those people who are set on having millions of new foreign workers enter the country each year and driving the U.S. population to a half-billion over the next few decades will tend to choose to believe any nasty stuff they read.

But for those of you who have a little more of an interest in the environment and in fairness to American workers, I would invite you to take a look at our website.

I founded NumbersUSA in 1997 to carry out the recommendations of the bi-partisan U.S. Commission on Immigration Reform, chaired by Barbara Jordan in the last act of a long, illustrious career.

You will see links on our website to read why Jordan and her commission recommended dramatic reductions in immigration to protect the more vulnerable members of American society.

Roy Beck:

Don't bother with correcting her. Let her (and the SPLC, ADL, and the rest of the Paranoia-Industrial Complex) keep on parroting blatant and easily demonstrable lies and half-truths. It's our trump card against them should we all be in court together, or in any other situation where ruining their credibility comes to down to showing how they play fast-and-loose with the truth.

And the problem with the "massive resistance" (i.e. to forced integration, mainly in the South and in northern cities) in the 1960s is?

Judging from the history of the last four decades, it turns out that the "massive resistance" was mostly correct. The "massive resistance" hasn't ended, it has morphed into another form, called urban sprawl.

Comment: As I said, I have no problem with you guys. You guys claim to be avowed racists who want segregation and an end to race mixing. All I want is the same level of honesty from FAIR, Tancredo and Heather MacDonald.

Roy Beck's concern is environmental degradation. No argument there either. My problem is with Tancredo and Hunter..if they are as honest as you guys no problem. But, they claim to protect the American worker when it comes to immigration and screw the American worker when it is on other issues. Same problem with Tanton, FAIR , CIS and others whether Mr. Beck likes it or not. I dont need to read the SPLC or ADL website to deduce this. You dont need to be a genius or a rocket scientist.

You want immigration problems? Just look at Miami.It trully is third world.65% latino 33% black and only 2% white and out of the 2% white most are jewish.Miami even has its own shanty town made of card board boxes and peices of tin. the first one in america.Only places like hatie africa and cuba have shanty towns.You want to see it go to youtube.com and type in "Miami shantytown". The Miami region is the fastest growing metro region in the united states 100,000 per year and one million every ten years move to the Miami metro.all are latin and hatian immagrants. The Miami metro area has a current population of 6 Million.That is not including the estimated 1/5 illegal immigrant population.Even though the Miami metro receves an extra 100,000 new immigrants a year 20,000 white american born anglos leave the Miami every year.At least the black american population is increasing though dispite the murders and aids killing off the blacks. Miami metro is number one in murder and aids.At that rate Miami will not have any white american anglo population at all in just 2 years or so.

"Don't bother with correcting her. Let her (and the SPLC, ADL, and the rest of the Paranoia-Industrial Complex) keep on parroting blatant and easily demonstrable lies and half-truths. It's our trump card against them should we all be in court together, or in any other situation where ruining their credibility comes to down to showing how they play fast-and-loose with the truth."

Comment: This issue was addressed in the court of public opinion and FAIR and Tancredo lost. Hostettler's seat and Jim Ryun's seat. Why did they loose? Simple commercial. Somehow suddenly Hostettler finds the American worker when it comes to immigration, but ask him help with the minimum wage, he says screw the American worker. Whose side is he on? Hostettler lost 61%-39%...the commercial was more devastating than "the white girl me Harold at the Playboy Party" commercial. Guess what? It would be run against Tancredo when he runs for President. Also if he claims to be pro-life they would expose his connections with the pro-abortion Tanton. True..all those white pagans who claim to be evangelicals would still vote for Tancredo or Hunter because they only care about not aborting white babies...(as at least CofCC openly admits they do)..but other evangelicals wont. Had they run Virgil Goode or Robert Goodlate instead of Tancredo or Hunter this wont fly.

"You want immigration problems? Just look at Miami.It trully is third world.65% latino 33% black and only 2% white and out of the 2% white most are jewish.Miami even has its own shanty town made of card board boxes and peices of tin."

Comment: Economically Miami is among the fastest growing cities in the country with lot of jobs, both skilled and unkilled created. If you are hungry and need a job Miami is the place to go.

"The intelligence of the typical American didn't bother Bill Buckley any, who said he would rather be governed by the first thousand names in the Boston phone book than the Harvard faculty, and that was coming from someone with a very erudite, academic persona."

Comment: That is why the morons are in Iraq loosing American lives. They should round up every person who voted for Bush and the GOP, particularly in the south, give them all weapons and send the to Iraq..let us Surge!! After all this is what the moron southerners wanted.

G. Chell:

Duncan Hunter is opposed to free trade.

I think the "aracial" "anti-immigration" right which you think is being deceitful about it's so-called "racism" is actually telling (what it thinks is) the truth about the non-importance of race. I think they delusionally believe their own aracial ideology vis-a-vis immigration.

But it's about race. Where there's a cake, there's bread flour, even if the cake doesn't look like flour. The only other substantive issue on immigration is economic, i.e. if the southern border were penetrated by 3 million Swedes a year (assuming that there were that many Swedes to emigrate anywhere) instead of 3 million Mestizos, there wouldn't be any racial opposition (from whites), but there would still be the economic concerns about wage depression.

But that's just hypothetical here.

I could spend all my life convincing myself that 1+1=3, and have myself so convinced that I could pass lie detector tests of very sort. But that doesn't make it so.

G. Chell:

Where do you think a disproportionate bulk of the troops are coming from? Certainly not from Vermont.

BTW, a troop surge with the stupid PC way Iraq is being fought is a bad idea. The only way out of this mess is partitioning, but that is too much a philosophical sour note for our globalist establishment.

"It's ALWAYS about race. And I WILL say it all fucking day, [Edited]."

Moonraven

You really hate the whiteman don't you moonie?

G. Chell:

Everywhere (on a state level) there was an anti-immigration proposal on the ballot in November 2006, it won. As for the Republicans, I just think that it was a blue day (i.e. as in Democrat, not as in sad), and some Republicans who were anti-immigration (or exploited the issue too late) lost for a multiplicity of reasons and issues, not least of which is the Bush noose.

You knew it would be a bad day for the Republicans when three House Rs in Indiana got toppled. Strangely, all House incumbents in MO won (5R-4D), and in the 1994 "Revolution," no MO seats changed hands that day, either.

"Everywhere (on a state level) there was an anti-immigration proposal on the ballot in November 2006, it won. As for the Republicans, I just think that it was a blue day (i.e. as in Democrat, not as in sad), and some Republicans who were anti-immigration (or exploited the issue too late) lost for a multiplicity of reasons and issues, not least of which is the Bush noose.

You knew it would be a bad day for the Republicans when three House Rs in Indiana got toppled. Strangely, all House incumbents in MO won (5R-4D), and in the 1994 "Revolution," no MO seats changed hands that day, either."

Comment: True anti-illegals initiatives won. But, the voters were smart enough to separate the individuals advocating from the goals. They found out that the individuals advocating it were not for the American workers. Minimum Wage did play a major role in Indiana 8.

Well, G. Chell, I appreciate your civility in giving me the benefit of the doubt. But it is important not to make assumptions. As I said, I know John Tanton and FAIR and CIS and pretty much all of the leaders from the far right to the far left of the immigration-reduction movement. I'm not aware that most of them have taken any position against raising the minimum wage. I think your argument is more with some Members of Congress who have cast votes on both sides of this issue.

Virtually, all the leaders (left to right) in the immigration-reduction movement are populists in that they have a true heart for the little guy (most ARE little guys, since polls show the support for reductions rises as incomes fall).

There is no question that there is a section of the immigration-reduction population that is racist -- that is, it believes that race is a significant defining characteristic and it looks at immigration through racial lenses. Protection of white majorityhood is a big goal of this segment.

There also is no question that a significant part of the clamor for HIGH immigration is also racist. (1) One set of people clamor for immigration to make their race a higher percentage of the U.S. population, as if race really says anything about what kind of citizen they will be. (2) The second group I encounter all the time when I am on radio shows -- that group is basically virulently anti-Black American and constantly talks about the laziness and ignorance of the descendants of slaves as a justification for bringing in 1.5 million foreign workers and dependents each year while 40% of American Black men do NOT have a job.

And both sides have proponents who have nothing at all to do with racism. Obviously, nobody would ever accuse Barbara Jordan (one of the great black , liberal Democratic political pioneers) of espousing immigration reduction for racist reasons.

For those of us working to achieve her recommendations on lower immigration, the question really is not the nature every motivation we carry but the nature of the results of the policy recommendation.

In the case of myself and quite a large number of reduction leaders, one of the most important reasons we are in this political battle is to deal with the growing despair within the black underclass and the role of foreign-labor competition in that.

A recent study by three economists in the National Bureau of Economic Research (Prof. George Borjas of Harvard, Prof. Jeffrey Grogger of the University of Chicago and Prof. Gordon H. Hanson of the University of California, San Diego) found that 30% of the decline in black male employment is related to the increasing level of immigration.

I would not say that people who insist on that high immigration are racist. But I believe that lowering immigration numbers is one of the most compassionate things our nation could do improve the lives of that terrible suffering underway among the approximately one-third of Black Americans who are mired in poverty and near-poverty.

I do not understand why the SPLC -- which was formed primarily to protect Black Americans -- works so hard for higher and higher immigration that is so destructive to this group. But I know that its constant efforts to create guilt by association and links to possible racism for nearly everybody who is working for reductions is a tremendous help to the Robber Barons of the 21st Century who are the primary forces driving the high immigration.

"Where do you think a disproportionate bulk of the troops are coming from? Certainly not from Vermont.

BTW, a troop surge with the stupid PC way Iraq is being fought is a bad idea. The only way out of this mess is partitioning, but that is too much a philosophical sour note for our globalist establishment."

Comment: Not enough...round the southerners up and send them to Iraq...dont care whether they carry the Confederate flag, CofCC flag or the US flag...send them to Iraq..White women who voted for Bush too...give them all training and send them to Iraq. They voted for this globalist establishment, they should pay.

"As I said, I know John Tanton and FAIR and CIS and pretty much all of the leaders from the far right to the far left of the immigration-reduction movement. I'm not aware that most of them have taken any position against raising the minimum wage. I think your argument is more with some Members of Congress who have cast votes on both sides of this issue."

Comment: People who use the American worker as an explanation to reduce illegals but dont take position on the minimum wage are not for the American worker. People who say that environment will be damaged due to immigration but take no position on giveaways to rich miners and opening North Slope to Alaska are not for the environment. You are for the environment. But, I dont believe FAIR, CIS or any of the other groups are for the American worker. Tancredo and Hunter are RACISTS. CIS and FAIR if they really are for the American worker should take these clowns to task for not voting for the minimum wage...if not, they are accomplices in this racist game, at the minimum (not taking into consideration FAIR's and CIS's association with Pioneer Fund). At least Cofcc believes in white racial purity. Tancredo and Hunter should come clean and declare that they are for white purity.

"Virtually, all the leaders (left to right) in the immigration-reduction movement are populists in that they have a true heart for the little guy (most ARE little guys, since polls show the support for reductions rises as incomes fall)."

Comment: Dont insult populists. None of the immigration-reduction movement folks in the GOP who voted against the minimum wage are populists...RACISTS yes, but not populists.

R.B.:

The SPLC was founded to be Morris Dees's personal cash cow. Just about everything they do should be analyzed in light of the goal of scaring rich left-wingers into writing Dees a check in fear of their lives, if one is to understand the SPLC in the proper light.

G. Chell:

The minimum wage is a substantively ineffective way of raising living standards. The minimum wage is a state-mandated price floor, which means that if the floor is above equilibrium, the quantity supplied (of workers) exceeds the quantity demanded, meaning marginal excess unemployment. If the Floor is below equilibrium, the no harm no foul, and it might as well not exist as a matter of law.

What the minimum wage is is a way for many politicians (mostly Democrats) to gain the votes of people who never had a 100-level microeconomics course, or did but never paid attention. Also, min. wage is popular w/unions even though they make way more the minimum in most cases, because some labor union collectively bargained contracts are set at multiples of the Federal minimum.

Immigration restriction is the best way to nudge the supply curve on labor such that the equilibrium wage increases, even if those who are doing so (or are pretending to do so) are wrong about other economic populist/nationalist measures.

G. Chell:

They might have voted for the globalist establishment, but they didn't have a choice. (As if John Kerry was any sort of a nationalist). I don't blame the average person who votes for a slick set of campaign promises then gets the opposite in practice of actual policy.

The average person doesn't pay attention to politics, and when they do, they hold their attention for as little time as they think they must, and do as little as possible. H.G. Wells said something like that.

Once again, you're accusing people like Tancredo and Hunter of having racial motivations when they don't, AFAIK.

"Comment: That is why the morons are in Iraq loosing American lives. They should round up every person who voted for Bush and the GOP, particularly in the south, give them all weapons and send the to Iraq..let us Surge!! After all this is what the moron southerners wanted."

Then they should round up every moonbat that voted for "I'm a war hero" Kerry and raise your taxes to nearly 100% to pay for all the liberal social welfare programs and fund the UN. After all this is what the smug, elitist, northeast liberals wanted.

[Edited]

I don't need a bunch of fucking trotskyites in NYC to tell me the reality of ILLEGAL immigration. I have two eyes and can see it for myself. Every time you go into a hospital ER all you see is illegals lining up for free healthcare. Every time an illegal kills or harms a citizen they just go back to their own nation and are never held to justice.

You bleeding heart fuckwits are going to be the downfall of this once great nation. This nation wasn't founded upon and never intended for the values of the so called "progressive" movement; massive ILLEGAL immigration, socilaism/communism, infanticide, subjugation of soveriegnty to corrupt international bodies (UN), militant, litigious, secularism, extreme racial demagoguery for political purposes, and moral relativism.

G. Chell:

By deduction of your scorn toward white women, you are right about something: The increase of Bush's margin of victory (negative margin of popular vote, in the case of 2000) over his Democrat Opponent, i.e. a 3 point swing between 2000 and 2004, 2.4 of that 3 was due to a shift in white women.

I make that point as a rebuke to the rainbow Republicans who try to make the case that Hispanic shifts were responsible, as those arguments are made to advance hard or soft amnesty for illegal aliens. Bush did see a slight increase in the Hispanic vote, but most of that was in Texas (where he was Gov.) and in Florida (where his brother was Gov.). Hispanics everywhere else stayed just about the same. In FL's case, the Cuban vote was the same, so that wasn't a factor.

"Then they should round up every moonbat that voted for "I'm a war hero" Kerry and raise your taxes to nearly 100% to pay for all the liberal social..."
- Arch/Bing

Yes, far worse than voting for "The reason I wasn't flying at Dannelly is because they didn't have the same kind of planes there" Bush...

An email from Lou Dobbs calls the assertion that he is "closely associated" with Tanton "utterly absurd."

"I've never met the man, nor talked with him," writes Dobbs.

Which doesn't rule out such things as sharing the same beliefs, exchanging email or correspondence, o® in fact accepting checks from him. Not that I have any reason to think Dobbs has done those things.

However, Dobbs peculiar and reprehensible beliefs clearly have a lot in common with Tanton, and it takes more than a one sentence denial to convince me that they aren't associated intellectually by more than just coincidence.

Dave

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

"I am 62, fabulous looking, and my sex life is more than satisfactory."
- Moonraven

Careful, Moonie, you're going to get Nalle and Clavvy turned on...

My 95 is in response to 93

Here is a list of all the cities in the united states "note many are suburbs of larger cities"Notice how most of the top cities with foreighn born residents are in florida.All of those florida cities are in the Miami metro.This will give everyone the facts on whats cities and states are the ones being affected the most ..."#1 Florida"... "#2 California"...#3 new jersey"..."#4 Texas"..."#5 Arizona"..."#6 Goergia"...My god look how many of the cities at the top of the list are in the florida Miami area !!! Notice even key biscayne which is Miami,s richest and highest class city has more latinos than east L.A. ""CICK ON MY URL TO SEE THE LIST"" enjoy

Careful, Moonie, you're going to get Nalle and Clavvy turned on...

One of Nalle's dead dogs sounds more appealing.

g chell true but in Miami to get a job you must know spanish. Also there is a a fine line in Miami between rich and poor.Middle class Miami is almost non existent from 2000 to 2004 Miami was rated the poorest big city in the united states by the government cencus reports.So most are poor than rich by far.today it is still the number 3 poorest big city in the united states

D.N.:

And what if there is some real, formal, demonstrable link between Lou Dobbs and John Tanton

What I'm about to say might seem a little crass, but I'll say it anyway.

I think the domestic left (and include in that classification the SJR-style moderates) have a vested interest in concocting some sort of big vast evil right-wing conspiracy, even if doing so involves creating wild, false and irrational links and associations among people that don't know or much like each other.

The reason is that it's really nifty and swell to take on The Big Bad Ugly Right-Wing Repressive System, rather than a relatively related but scattered consortium of groups and individuals that fight each other more than the left (as the right wing really is today), because each little minor victory the left has (such as the change of one-third of Indiana's Congressional delegation from Rs to Ds) would allow them to beat their chests and congratulate themselves on how they got over on The Mega-Forces of Evil.

Some people on the right do the same thing, in all honesty.

Carlos:

The left loves to complain (rightly so) about the increasing rich-poor disparity, but mass immigration acerbates it. There isn't much of any "middle class" in Latin America. As the USA becomes more like Latin America, as the left prescribes, so will rich-poor disparity.

Any politician who embraces the anti-immigration agenda (even if it's cynically) is by intent or by accident doing the most important thing to preserve the working middle class in America, more so than any useless votes on window dressing boob bait like "minimum wage."

well G Chell? here is an article dated in 2002.Miami poorest big city in the united states 2000-2003.It also talks about Miami,s immigration as well. The crazy part about Miami being the poorest city in the united states is Miami is also one of the most expensive cities to live in the united states.How do they expect residents to survive?There was recent protest in Miami from teachers and even police officers complaining that they dont get paid enough.So yea "G Chell" Miami is a huge city with plenty of jobs but the problem is the jobs do not pay enough for the costs of living.People have jobs but are still homeless.Know why the pay is low?Because immigrants are willing to work for peanuts because they are used to it. Miami is mostly immigrants so the people actually born and raised in Miami have to suffer and live like people live in third world countries.Low pay crime traffic congestion and the language issues are the biggest problems with mass numbers of immigrants coming in to many to fast.click on my URL to read the article.enjoy

Carlos:

Are you Carlos T.B.G. who posts at AR often?

Miami is an example of the 1% Rich/99% Poor dichotomy I described above. Anyone who goes there and doesn't come out with the same conclusion Tancredo did has no intellectual honesty.

What do you call someone who speaks many languages?

A polyglot.

What's the term for someone who speaks two languages?

Bilingual.

And what do you call someone who speaks only one language?

Gringo.

blogmeister you are very right about very little middle class in latin american countries.Indeed they bring all the problems to america thatthey are trying to run from.The american government has taken advantage of immigrants in Miami but american citizens have to suffer because of it.Now shanty towns are develeping In Miami.Miami has always had smaller ones under expressways but now they are getting much larger and more of them at alarming rates.Bottom line people in Miami even middle class can not afford to live like an american is suposed to.Miami is what the rest of the united states will be in 50 years or so.to The people who really know Miami that is a very scary though.

blogmeister I am not Carlos TBG I am new here sorry.I used to live in Miami but moved.I know first hand how bad it is in Many neighborhoods.I am originally from colombia and have traveled to haiti.Many slubs of Miami compare to many slums in both those countries.It has gotten worse in Miami is the last five years.much of it does look third world.One could argur that Miami has rich areas like star island and coral gables but remember haiti and colombia have rich areas as well and they are indeed third world I am an immigrant myself.but came here at the age of 10.I am not saying stop all immigration because we are all immigrants in a way.I am saying stop the immigrants coming in mass numbers or at least american government needs to step up and plan things out so the rest of america does not end up third world like Miami.

Carlos:

Thanks to historically (but not currently) strong unionization, and a relative lack of mass immigration (so far), my St. Louis and other similar rust belt cities ironically have the best (albeit dimming) prospects for the quintessential working middle class existence.

However, you said something interesting:

"Bottom line people in Miami even middle class can not afford to live like an american is suposed to." I'm interested in your words "supposed to."

I think over the last immigration, the American plutocracy, through its media and entertainment organs, have used a sort of mass hypnosis to lower the expectations of all (esp. white) Americans about their prospects for a standard of living.

The reason is obvious: Corporate "America" is whetting the whistle for a cheap, docile, complicit work force, with no unions, no benefits, miserable pay scales, no civil rights or privileges in the realm of employer-employee relations. People have to be conditioned to consider this kind of garbage to be "normal" and the way an "American is supposed to live."

I ran from Colombia like many others then I had to run from Miami like many others as well. now I pray I wont have to run to canada from the united states.Bottom line I dont want america to become like colombia or hatie because Miami defenitly already has.Its to late for Miami but its still not to late for the united states.

Carlos:

Every place on Earth has its desirable rich areas. But my assessment of a place is based on the standard of living of a randomly-chosen person of that area, and his or her prospects for moving up or down in terms of economic class (i.e. class fluidity, i.e. class mobility).

By any intellectually honest measure of those things, white countries are tops in the world.

Canada is sinking into the abyss even more rapidly than the USA. The influx is as great, and as Canada started with fewer (white) people to start, they will be inundated in percentage terms sooner than the USA.

I had Toronto proper described to me by a Canadian who lives close to there as a cross between Karachi, Pakistan and Kingston, Jamaica.

blogmeister I like you.You are very well educated and are not afraid to speak the truth about immigration and the terrible lack of respect that our government has for hard working americans "aspecially lately"beleive me its going to get worse if somthing is not done about it.Cost of living keeps going up dramatically but pay is still almost the same.The crazy part about your comment of no benifits is that i did not even think of that because i never even had benifits.How is a person soposed to to pay $350 dollars a month for heart burn pills with acid reflex disease when they earn 6.50 an hour and their rent is 1,100 a month for a ghetto dumpy closet.How is a person soposed to go to the dentist making $6.50 an hour when just to even see him/her is $350 dollars and another $4,000 for a root canal.Did I mention I have two kids to feed?

Carlos, you said this above:

"I am not saying stop all immigration because we are all immigrants in a way."

All human beings are descendants of immigrants, and all countries are countries of immigrants. Depending on your religious faith or lack thereof, just about all people on earth are descendants of immigrants, and almost all countries and cities are populated by immigrants therein and their descendants.

The whole history of human civilization can be capsulized in groups of humans going away from where they were and moving somewhere else, and the conflict that inevitably happens when they confront the people that were already there, and also that when there is little or no transmigration, that the relative peace and tranquility allows unmolested societies to cultivate and develop the fine arts, the practical arts, the sciences, trade, industry and commerce, and in general push forward the frontiers of knowledge and culture.

Carlos, St. Louis 2007 for the average person is great compared to Miami 2007, but St. Louis 1965 compared to Miami 2007 seems like heaven.

I won't describe what the life's prospects were for a typical young man in St. Louis in 1965 in relation to his economic standing, in terms of the kind of job he would have, his job security, his pay and benefits, the kind of lifestyle he and his wife and children would have, and so on, because if I did, it would make you suicidally depressed. It makes me kinda said.

Not Coincidentally, 1965 is the year when the American government changed its immigration policy away from "National Origin" based (i.e. white) and moderate to low annual numbers, to a policy that preferred non-whites in large legal (and by inference, also illegal) numbers.

how is a teacher suposed to buy a house or even an apartment when they earn $28,000 a year and a dumpy 2 br apartment costs $280,000 and a dumpy hurricane raveged 2 br house in the ghetto costs $350,000.and then on top of that pay $15,000 a year just for hurricane insurence "required". Only choice is to rent a closet sized efficientcy with two kids for $900 a month.Then theres the electric bill $200 a month gas "fluxuates" "like crazy" food 4$ just for milk that lasts 2 days with kids. $1,900 a year for Minimum p.i.p. car insurence and so on.No one is going to give a teacher food stamps.Now think about all of that and instead of a teacher who makes $28,000 a year in Miami think of a waiter or a cashier who makes 6.50 an hour oh about $13,000 a year.Those poor hard working people end up homeless in Miami along with their kids.That is why shanty towns in Miami are forming all over the place.

They can't. The numbers obviously don't add up. Even with two teachers' salaries, they would barely eke out a halfway decent existence. A large square peg can't fit into a small round hole.

1965 ummm the pay really is not that much different from then as far as minimum wage and blue callar jobs.sure its gone up but by how much $2 or $3 dollars an hour or so? "correct me if im wrong" but in anyway im sure im not far off. everything else has gotten a thousand times more expensive.I am sure you know that. Big company owners are making a killing stealing from hard working slaves who cant even afford a place to live anymore.How much was a house,or rent, gas, food, car insurence home owners insurence and all the bills in 1965 and rent compared to now 2007?I am only 30 so I have no idea what the costs where in 1965 but i do know my mom bought an 3 br apartment in Miami in 1988 for $62,000 today that aprtment now costs $400,000 just 5 years ago it would cost $90,000 that aint bad for people that already owned homes but its a crime to the people that are just starting out.Afreind of mine was renting a 3 br apartment in the same complex for $800 a month in 1998 today that same aprtment rents for $2,200 a month.I can tell you min wage in Miami in 1998 was 6.50 an hour at that time and I thionk it just went up by about 10 cents to $6.60 an hour.So yea there is definitly somthing out of this world wrong in Miami. All of the united states is in trouble to some extent aspecially california and new york but Miami is in trouble to the extreme.

From The Miami Herald, December 1, 2006:

Miami-Dade teachers overwhelmingly approved a landmark, three-year contract that boosts salaries and helps implement new reform programs in the fourth largest school district in the country, the United Teachers of Dade announced Wednesday.

...The agreement immediately increases the base starting-teacher salary from $34,200 to $36,250, with raises retroactive to July 1. In January, teachers will receive an additional small raise that will bring starting salaries to $37,000 and top out at $65,225 for veteran educators.

In the second year of the contract, the starting salary would increase to $38,000, and then to $40,000 in the final year. In 2008-09, veterans would top out at $68,225 on base pay.

Both of you guys are racists and Carlos, everything you've written is lies, as I've proven here regarding teacher salaries, and bears NO resemblance to the reality of Miami today.

yes blog meister thats why teachers and even police have been protesting in Miami but at least they get some respect.but Waiters and cashiers would not even be alowd to do so.The cops would arrest them plus they would probably be laughed at by the general public.Just remember they work hard if not even harder than anyone.The messed up part about it is the lowest paying jobs realy run most of the city.Without them there would be no resturaunts, resorts, stores to buy food,actually no stores at all.They are very valuble to all citizens and deserve much better.

clavos thank you for that post I was not aware that they finnally raised the teachers pay.Clavos so you are saying I am lieing about the teachers and police protesting?please answer my question.I made one small mistake about teachers pay I doid not realise it went up.everything else ive said is 100% true.by the way even 37,000 a year is still terrible for the costs of living in Miami just 15,000 alone goes to home owners insurence.

Clavos (not Carlos):

$40G a year to start in two years? Wow, that's good for them, though with the cost of living in Miami what it is, it seems ethereal. And last I looked, not everyone can be an educator.

I have a chatroom friend who lives in Inland Empire, California, and with his $46G/yr, he is barely making it.

$40G/yr will get you a nice living in St. Louis, though.

if you want clavos I can take some