Perhaps all of you ought to arrive in PANTS bearing the flag of Oz - and let the authorities try to confiscate them, thereby creating a bunch of bare-assed patriotic Aussies!

You're right: this sort of thing is ridiculous. And why is it that the rest of us must always make some sort of provision to accomodate the muslims? It seems a disproportionate percentage of muslims create problems where ever they go.

Nancy, this so-called "rest of us" you talk about have made life a living hell the Aborigines since 1788. Forget about accomodation and think about oppression and misery.

??? That was a non-sequitur. What the hell are you talking about? I was addressing the flag issue. BTW, the aborigines seem to be targets of the muslim invaders just like everyone else, if I've read correctly.

It is a private company, they are making a decision based on security. Isn't it a little ironic that the same people prepared to roll over when Howard reduces civil liberties for the public get in a huff when a private company exercises their right to restrict clothing worn within their private function? If people don't like, don't go.

This is a completely nothing story being blown out of proportion by columnists who glorify in an attitude that immigrants are fine, as long as they act like us. They revel in the stereotype of Australians as beer-loving, cricket-loving friendly jokers, and yet hide from the racism that is a large part of the Australia psyche. We have destroyed the culture of Australian Aborigines, long denied them any vote or say, and still blame them for their own situation. We eradicated our native languages, and then have the gall to deny immigrants entry into Australia if they are not quick enough to learn English. And please, let us not fall for the tired attack on Muslims - the people leading these attacks know little about international events, and equally attack anyone different, whether race/religion/language/sexuality.

I wish the ban on the Australian flag was not necessary at this event, but wishing does not make the racist thugs start to respect diversity.

Let's check some facts, Stan.

Sydney's Big Day Out is NOT held on Australia Day this year. The organisers have shifted it to January 25 this year.

The Big Day Out concerts - which are held in both Australia and New Zealand, not just in this continent - are held over a period of two weeks, not all on the same day, and NEVER all on Australia Day.

My view is that the BDO organisers have a valid concern, but expressed it in a very clumsy and naive manner. The kneejerk reaction from the pollies, the Murdoch comic books and so forth have done more damage and will create more tension than the BDO's initial faux pas would ever have generated.

Sure, if people want to take the Aussie flag along, maybe even wave it in tune with Laura Imbruglia, let them. But please don't let it be used as a banner for the "You Flew Here We Grew Here" yobbos.

Oh, and the whole issue has nothing to do with Islam.

Rick, the story does point out that the concert has shifted to Australia Day eve ... the 25th then. And yes, Muslim Australians have suffered and been marginalised in this country, but some have also done some damage to the wellbeing of the nation too. Perhaps those are issies better dealt with by handing out olive branches rather than big sticks,

And this has nothing to do with reconciliation with Aboriginal Australians. That's a separate issue that hopefully will get more currency once John Hoawrd is punted.

Don't worry ... there are plenty of indigenous Australians who'd think a ban of this kind, even though it's at a concert, is absurd.

Anger at ridiculous aspects of PC isn't confined to the rabid right in Australia.

Nancy, people will tell you this has nothing to do with muslims, which is not strictly true.

It actually does, since this ban results from the actions of people who wrapped themselves in the Australian flag and targeted Musliam Arab-Australians in race riots at Cronulla.

Australians of middle-eastern descent were the victims of that, though ... and no one with an ounce of conscience could suggest otherwise.

S.T.M, complaining about flag flying and "politically correct lunacy" in a country that blatantly oppresses the indigenous inhabitants is ridiculous.

When does the "...philosophy of fair play and a fair go..." ever apply to the Aborigines?

The concert is not on Australia Day, it's on the 25th of January and the organisers have not banned the flag at all.

It's a real shame you don't know more about the facts of the story before publishing it.

Dan, yes, they did ban the flag ... and the story does say that the concert, traditionally held in Sydney on Australia, has been moved to Australia Day eve. Perhaps you should read the story first.

Emry, I agree with you about the treatment of Indigenous Australians. However, while it's not enough, I do believe that the moves towards reconciliation in all aspects of Australian life over the past 30 years have been the catalyst for some real changes that hopefully might be ongoing.

Even those priveleged schools you've derided me over in previous threads have made opportunities available to boys in the past 20 years that wouldn't have been available 30 years ago - I can think of two in particuilar in Sydney, both Catholic, although a snooty Anglican one has done the right thing recently too.

My own experience of that is there has been no drama for the boys there because of race - although one had to be talked out of joining the National Party because he thought he could be of more benefit to his people that way. But those things are a good start.

My personal hope and vision for this country, for what it's worth, is one of inclusion, for all Australians.

It also doesn't involve John Howard and his populist brand of right-wing politics.

Hopefully we will soon get a Prime Minister who can say one simple word: "Sorry" - and if you're an Aussie, you'll know what I mean by that.

Until that happens, any continuation of the healing process sadly remains on hold.

In the interests of fairness: the big day out organisers have posted this on their website today, clarifying their position.

So suddenly because an organiser says so out flag is now inciting racism?
If you dont like the flag you can move somewhere where it won't shine!
I am sick of pussy footing around political correctness. You want to live here, then live as an Australian, be proud of our democracy and stop crying about what happend several hundred or only a couple of hundred years ago!

STM

I understand your frustration and it does seem PC but it also looks like a security issue.

A few months back, I was googling and ended up on an Australian Skinhead group. They were highly focused on Middle Easterners and talked about crashing events. They discussed the neighborhoods that you referred to and referred to them as vermin and every thing else as you can imagine..

I guess what I am saying is that, perhaps for the normal public, there is no issue. But maybe this ME community experiences far more than is noted, also perhaps the authorities are aware of threats that the public isn't aware of. It seems like a safety measure.

I am however interested in how you said the problem started when they immigrated to Australia. Perhaps the Aboriginals would say something different.

Stan,

Nice piece, Mate. You're getting a good variety of POVs, too.

Couldn't help notice the JD logo on the BDO website.

Heh. Fair dinkum whiskey.

Yes, there were minor problems at the concert last year (on Australia Day, when it's traditionally held) but nothing serious.

Australians of Arabic descent (and my guess is most just want to be accepted in Australia) have certainly been targeted, but they give as good as they get, don't worry ... still, it's pretty sickening that a) the national flag is hijacked by racist dickheads, who think it's OK to use it to fuel race-hate attacks, and b) that organisers of a rock concert subsequently think they have to avoid any risk by stopping people from bringing in flags.

They now say they are not, but they did say yesterday they didn't want flags there.

I would also point out that this issue really has nothing to do with indigenous Australians, except that some - not all - obviously very much don't see the flag as a symbol of inclusion.

You will never, ever get an argument from me about how badly indigenous Australians have been treated. It's a disgrace, really, but I really believe most people would like to see it put right. It is now too late to change the past, but not the future. I have tried to do small things on a personal level (in an area where I can do it) to redress some things, which everyone should do, as anyone can say they want change in relation to this but then do nothing about it.

There is certainly a genuine mood of reconciliation taking root but we will not see any more ground made up on that issue at government level until this right-wing federal government is gone and is replaced by one that actually has a touch of compassion about it.

Thanks Clav ... a couple from people telling me the concert was no longer on Australia Day and that I should check the facts. Oh, look, it's in the story!

I knew it would bring out those who'd want to compare this to the plight of Aboriginal Australians. To be honest, I wouldn't insult the indigenous community by drawing that bow. What's been done to Aborigines here goes far beyond any of this stuff. But it doesn't change the fact we are having lots of problems here at the moment unrelated to that.

I hope Australians of all persuasions decide to stand up and be counted at the next federal election and vote in a new government that might have the wherewithal to properly deal with some of these issues in a way that isn't confrontational.

Perhaps, Muslems want to replace Australian flag with some green banner?

I was obviously out of line to say anything, seeing as I know nothing. My bad. Mark Twain once warned "beware of anyone who wraps themselves in religion or The Flag: they're up to no good". That would seem to apply universally in every country.

You subversive liberal tools fail to understand that it will always be in man's genetic programming, the need to defend one's culture, clan, ethnic group, family and the symbols thereof. The day will come when Islam is ascendant that you will be the first ones slain in the name of Allah and his prophet. Every great society eventually falls from within. Western culture is well on it's way. The Koran does not place a value on tolerance, abortion, diversity, gay rights etc. Muslims see you for what you are, weak and ignorant, but very useful.

Nancy #18

I was comming on this thread to say what you just posted. I was trying to think of a way to say it that wouldn't be too offensive and then I read your contribution and thought, YES!

So Ditto to what she said!

STM

I am concerned that what the non Muslim public are thinking is a minor problem may be a more pervasive problem to that population. I would guarantee that these people have dealt with verbal attacks all their lives. Because the general public hasn't dealt or known about it, there is a tendency to think that the problem started when they became aware of it.

You can be assured that the incident at the beach was not the first, second, third or fourth. You can bet that those teens who lost it and went in retaliation mode, were not reacting to just that incidence. I am sure they have stories to tell.

So again, as we grow towards looking at people as just people, we begin to see beyond the "obvious" signs and chose to see like they see. Our world changes and it actually becomes more beautiful, more safe, and more expansive and then and only then do we suck every ounce out of this experience that we call life.

Angelo

How we react to some Muslims will determine what happens to our culture.

You see be going ape and attacking spurious "Islamic" states in retaliation for attacks by other Muslims is a way to empower Islam. By supporting the state of Israel we promote a greater Islamic radical alliance.

By attacking people on the beach we en-vibe angry teens to retaliate.

We are by no means victims.

...Excuse any typos... migrane afoot.

Zedd, I guess you really have to be here to understand this. Most Australians have been very welcoming of migrants of all descriptions over the years, as since European settlement the whole country has been built on migration anyway.

I don't really see Muslims as being a separate grouping. I mean, they are Australians of a different religion. Simple stuff really, and even in the leafy suburban area where I live, it is not a shock to anyone or an issue to anyone to see, for instance, a woman in a headscarf.

People of many different cultures make up this country, which is what these days makes it so good. We are very different to the US in that regard in terms of the acceptance of migrants (but of course there are always some who don't like it).

I go to the south-western suburbs to celebrate the end of Ramadan with some friends, and they are pretty solid, traditional muslims.

But even they admit that some of the younger men/youths of middle-eastern descent forming the gangs are causing too much trouble, not only in their adopted country but also within their community.

They tend to be very heavily involved in all sorts of crime and it has spiralled out of control to the point where the boys' own communities are shocked by it. The problem has been the marginalisation of the past.

On the other side of the coin, there are the people of Anglo-celtic background, mainly teenagers, who are using what are really crime issues, as the police keep pointing out, as an excuse to go on the rampage. Undoubtedly, while many on both sides are just stupid kids, there are some on each side who are motivated by racial hatred.

The bashing of the lifesaver wasn't an isolated incident: at Cronulla Beach, women with children had been harrassed by gang members while using the beach showers, others had been called names and told on the beach to cover up, people had been beaten up and bullied and spat upon, and the list goes on.

However, while it had been annoying, once again not every person of Arabic descent going to the beach had been guilty of any of that stuff.

In fact, many go with their families on the weekend for picnics etc just like any other Australians.

According to the police, the problems have been caused by a hard-core of I believe about 1000 gang members.

That is what made the Cronulla riots so disgusting - the non-Arab rioters just attacked anyone who looked different. And to their credit, about 99 per cent of Australians were appalled as much by that aspect of it as they were by the retailiation - which was pretty violent stuff, BTW.

That included a Greek Australian whose family had been here for a long time.

It's a police issue more than anything, and the more I think about it the more I can see the worry of the BDO organisers.

However, in my view, it is still erring too far on the side of PC: as my son said last night, his mates want to take an Aussie flag to celebrate the spirit of the Australia Day weekend - and given his background, he would be the last person to drag the flag around and turn it into a point of difference.

Sounds very interesting.

Although I must say, Zedd, it's pretty much already covered in the story ... :)

I think it's important not to judge us by the standards you encounter in the US. They are very different places. We are much smaller, and much more accepting generally of the large influx of migrants from different parts of the world - although there will always be those who aren't.

This is a far more laidback place and is genuinely working hard to right the injustices of the past. Like I say, when the conservative Howard government goes, hopefully things will improve on that score too.

Thank you for the additional information. I am learning.

Have you seen the video that the Lebanese gang made? What do you think about muslim now? Why are you still being tolerant? It is clear what some of them thinks about Australia... why still let them live here?

Deport them back to Lebanon? Sure and then they'll join some terrorist organisation and start suicide bombing innocent people... should we tolerate these youths further?

W.B.

Do you have a link to "that video" you refer to in comment #27?

Lebanon is not too far north from where I live, so I do have a dog in this race...

STM, most Americans don't object to immigrants, per se - we object to ILLEGAL immigrants. There's a BIG difference.

Not saying you object Nancy, just saying that a lot of Americans have struggled with the influx.

And as to the high school boys from south-western Sydney who made that video, yes it's disgraceful - but it's not endorsed by 99 per cent of Muslim Australians.

Like I say, the police believe there is a hard-core of about 1000 gang members who are causing trouble. Their actions are criminal, rather than religion-inspired.

SUPERB article. Thanks for it!

Sometimes I think the only three semi-sane people left in the world are Americans, Australians, and Japanese. (And then I read about what they sell in vending machines in Japan, and round that number down to two...) :-/

Beer helps ...

"We are very different to the US in that regard in terms of the acceptance of migrants (but of course there are always some who don't like it)."

Uh, the US has been the most welcoming nation to immigrants in the history of the world. All we request is that they learn the language, follow our "secular" laws, get a job, pay their taxes, and assimilate to extent they are able to. By the third generation, most are usually fully assimilated.

You'll notice there is a lot more racial/ethnic diversity in the US than pretty much any other Western country in the world. 12% Black, 14% Hispanic, 6% Asian, 1% Native American (though millions of Americans have at least some percentage of Native American ancestry in their blood), etc.

The idea that Americans are a bunch of isolationist nativists is a bogus media creation.

RJ wrote: "Uh, the US has been the most welcoming nation to immigrants in the history of the world. All we request is that they learn the language, follow our "secular" laws, get a job, pay their taxes, and assimilate to extent they are able to. By the third generation, most are usually fully assimilated.''

That's the case here as well, but for the US, I'm talking about lately RJ - issues such as Spanish becoming the main language in some areas of the southern and south-western United States.

Don't read too much into it, and I'm obviously not talking about everyone in the US. My understanding, however, is that recently, there have been real problems. However, as Nancy points out, much of that is about illegal immigrants.

I understand the US has been built on immigration and is very racially diverse. Per capita, however, immigration here has been on a much larger scale in recent years even than the US - a big percentage of them from the middle east. And the way things are in the US at the moment, I suspect immigration from that region on that kind of scale might have been an issue.

Forgive me if I'm wrong. I don't live there and can only go on what I read in the papers, hear from American friends over there or pick up on this site.

As an aside, nearly 25 per cent of Australians currently living here were not born in Australia.

While a fair proportion of those are from Europe, that gives you some idea. I think we've handled it all pretty well, all things considered.

Our proportion of foreign-born is approximately 12%, according to this article on CNN:

According to the Census Bureau, there were 9.7 million foreign-born people in the country in 1967. By 2004, that number had mushroomed to 34.3 million -- 12 percent of the total population.

So, while you do have a higher ratio of immigrant to native population, you are apparently also receiving a higher socioeconomic class of immigrant than we, according to this interesting report from the Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas:

In Australia, 57 percent of the foreign-born population has an upper-level education, compared with 44 percent of the native population.

I DO know that in some areas of the US, a majority of the population are foreign born. In South Florida, about 65%.

Correction: There's an incorrect datum in my #36:

The South Florida percentage of foreign-born is only 51%. The 65% figure refers to the proportion of Latinos (foreign and native) in SF.

Clav: Globalism is changing countries everywhere, and we must all accept it with good grace. There is certainly no room for racism in any discussion of this, which I notice you fired up about yesterday debating the guy from Denver, who quite obviously was having a bit of a racist tirade.

The one thing I do love about multiculturalism in Sydney (much like you in Miami) is that is makes the place very cosmopolitan: you can dine out anywhere in the world without leaving town. Good stuff.

Cheers mate ... keep sailing (or at least floating)! BTW, I watched an interesting show on the History Channel last night about the Long Tan battle at Nui Dat involving the Australians/New Zealanders and the Viet Cong.

Fascinating stuff, as they had recordings of all the radio traffic between the Aussies on the front line, the NZ artillery and their HQ. They were in danger of being overrun a number of times and had to call for fire on their own position before the Cavalry arrived (literally). Very sad and poignant, too, particularly on Australia Day, especially the interview with the sisters of one of the conscripts (the Nashos, or National Service men) from 6RAR who was killed, aged just 19.

Clav: Globalism is changing countries everywhere, and we must all accept it with good grace

Dead on, STM.

I especially get all bent out of shape because at some point in our personal histories we are ALL immigrants, just as you are in Australia.

One of the principal reasons both countries are world leaders is that fact.

STM

Has the discussion on this matter been elevated to discuss the discomfort that comes with the introduction of a new culture into an already established society.

I say this to suggest that it may be wise for Australia to use this experience as a way to get a sense of what the Aboriginal population must have felt. Off course the invasion was much more devastation but the feeling of being disrespected, the lack of gratitude, the abrupt change without consideration of the norms....

Every experience provides an opportunity for growth, this may be a wonderful chance for Australia to mature and gain a larger perspective of its history.

Zedd, I love your comments and your thoughts ... but I wish you'd really read what we write sometimes. Clav and I are talking about how much we love the input of other cultures, not the opposite. I know here that is the feeling the majority have - but obviously, there are those who don't like it just like everywhere.

As for the Aborigines, if you read my other piece on Australia Day in the politics section, you'll see that there was plenty of aboriginal input into Australia Day yesterday and things are not always how they are presented in the newspapers, although one of my mates DID send me an SMS wishing me a happy Invasion Day.

Clav and I are not racist Zedd .. we are comfortable enough with who we are not be racist. Yesterday, Clav refused to engage in a on-line debate with a guy who was using some pretty racist arguments to support his point of view.

although one of my mates DID send me an SMS wishing me a happy Invasion Day.

That's funny, Stan.

I hope you had a good smart-aleck retort for him?

I asked him if he'd caught anything for the barbecue ....

Well, had he?

Yeah, and he'd obviously mixed a bit of fennel and herbs into them before he put skins on them and turned them into gourmet sausages.

However, they tasted suspiciously like the lamb ones he bought from an upmarket butcher's shop down the road from his place last time we got on the piss there.

LOL!

While we're on the subject, and forgive my ignorance, but is kangaroo edible? What about wallaby?

Mate, Kangaroo is actually delicious ... if it's cooked properly. It's got to be pinky rare inside or it just gets really tough. It doesn't taste that different to a nice steak, but slightly more gamey. It's a really good meat for us to eat, because there are so many kangaroos now they have to cull them out in the bush. I really like 'roo - it's good eating. Wallabies are just small 'roos, so they count too. Some of 'em are protected though, so you can't just out in the bush and bag a few wallabies to eat.

Because we also eat emu (which I don't like. Yuk - flavour's too strong), we are the only country that puts its official national coat of arms on the barbecue.

We have a few emu farms here. Don't know much about it, but my understanding is people are losing their investments in them, because the meat's a tough sell here.

What we do eat here, especially in Florida and the southeast, is 'gator.

I remember when they were actually protected; now they keep increasing the bag limit and the season because we're getting overrun with the wild ones, even in the cities from time to time.

They're also farmed. It's pretty good, too. Tastes a lot like chicken--Just like cats do. :>)

Having eaten emu, had anyone suggested I invest my hard-earned in it I think I would have told them where to stick it.

I have eaten croc, which I assume is very similar to alligator.

Just the once though ... it tasted nice, a bit like a delicate-flavoured chicken, but I don't like the idea of eating something that would also like to eat me. Same goes for shark.

Far as I know, only the fin of shark is eaten? True?

No, it's cut up into fillets here and eaten as a fish, usually battered and deep fried and eaten with chips (fries). Some of the smaller ones are nice - no bones - but it still doesn't feel right.

I surf regularly at a reef break, and sitting on your board with your legs dangling over the side does give you pause for thought about many things, especially when dark shapes and shadows appear to be moving underneath.

I never go surfing these days unless at least one other person is in the water, as that cuts the risk of shark attack by 50 per cent. I wouldn't go anywhere near the water up in the far north though, as the place is full of saltwater crocs.

Salties are maneaters, and attacks are not uncommon at all. You don't even have to be in the water to be taken ... they will go you near the water's edge too. And not THAT near, either.

There are also plenty of other dangerous critters floating around that will kill or seriously injure you.

STM #41

I was not talking about you and Clavos Goofy. I was talking about the discussion in Australia about the flag and immigrants. You know, the topic of the thread??????

I didn't read what you and Clavos were on about accept for the on entry about you eating a Kangaroo and eating it while its pink. I almost threw up.

Clavos

At some point Jack In The Box used Kangaroo meat

No, they didn't, Zedd.

Kangaroo meat is a specialty product even in Australia and is more expensive than beef there, so if it was shipped to the US it would be even more expensive, and therefore completely impractical for commercial use in place of much cheaper beef.

Like most urban legends, when examined closely the roo taco rumor makes no sense.

dave

Just thought I'd add a note on immigration and racism. There is an interesting theory around that the White Australia Policy might be responsible for why there aren't the racial tensions you find in other countries.

The suggestion is based on the WAP preventing the establishment of ethnic stereotypes because race was did not become linked with crime or economics. Had it not been in place, employers would have used immigration to bring in cheep labor and form an underclass.

#55

Sound like a utopia in that respect.

I think the whole slavery thing threw the potential of that ever happening in the US, out.

Dave the rumor was that it was in their hamburgers. It was exciting to be grossed out in high school about it.

First, I'd like to say to Jonathan that that is a fairly nicely reasoned piece of thought on the WAP. I think it's true. We know indigenous Australians have had a tough time - but not everywhere in Australia - but to a large extent compared to some places I've been around the world, many Aussies seem to be "colour-blind". I've always wondered why that is, and always just put it down to the laid-back attitude. It's interesting to think that it could have come from our racism in the first place. What a paradox if true.

Secondly, Zedd, you could do a lot worse than have hamburgers made out of roo meat ... it's not that different to beef, but is a lot leaner, so is far healthier, and is almost pure protein.

STM
I am sure its perfectly fine and quite tasty. I hope I didn't sound offensive. They are just so cute. I'm touchy about such things. And them standing up on two feet makes them seem almost human like. I cant even eat deer or rabbit.

Actually if I didn't love meat so much I'd be a vegan. It's just so dad-gum good!!! But I couldn't kill anything that I raised and looked in the eye. I truly love animals.

However, I'm sure if I were starving, the half Zulu in me would rear her practical head up and have a roast to be rivaled.

What is the name of that Easter animal? My Australian friend told me that he's eaten it. I saw the picture and nearly fainted. He's proudly stereo typically gay, and he eats it with a gourmet marinade and an apricot glaze and mint sauce. I tease him and tell him that he wouldn't last an hour in The Outback. It looked like a giant rodent like the nutria (I think that's the name) that they eat in Louisiana.

Speaking about gays in The Outback, do you know the name of that movie with the drag queens and the Abba songs? I'm a huge Abba fan and I loved the cinematography as well? I want to order it but the name escapes me.

The Adventures of Priscilla, Queen of the Desert

Ah yes, group of drag queens leaves The Albury Hotel/or some other pub in Oxford St, Paddington, in a bus and heads into the outback for even more fun and laughter than usual ... happens all the time.

Great movie though.