Hate to be indelicate, JB, but this is an utter load of horseshit.

Legalizing prostitution would SOLVE or at least help solve the problems you cite.

Legalizing prostitution means controlling it. It means that you can license prostitutes and require regular medical care and make sure that they are disease free. It means you can track them and make sure they are of age and willing participants.

By bringing prostitution out of the underworld and under the protection of the law you drive the criminals out and make it possible for the participants and the customers to be protected by the police and the law.

Rather than promoting AIDS and crime and slavery it would have the exact opposite effect, and you're smart enough to know that's true and how decptive your article is.

The only argument for outlawing prostitution is a 'moral' one, that it is bad for society, or just because you're opposed to any kind of sex outside of marriage. In the face of problems like AIDS and sex slavery that position just won't stand up.

For public health and public safety some form of legalized and controlled prostitution is essential.

Dave

Just like leaglizing drugs will miraculously solve all the drug problems? All the sudden junkies will stop stealing, pimping, and robbing to get their fix...

The abuse happens whether or not it is legal. Do you think prostitutes don't get slapped around in Vegas? Do you honestly think regulation will keep women from being forced into prostitution by drug addiction, domineering male (boyfriend or parent) or both?

Making prostitution "above ground" won't make the players miraculously non-criminal... it wouldn't be the first time the mob had "legit" operations.

And the fact is, the research shows abstinence programs are more effective in reducing AIDS.

Using the same logic, slavery (which still exists in many places) should be legalized so underground slaves can be given some measure of human rights.

That's not using the same logic, that's using no logic at all. Slavery and voluntary prostitution are not the same thing. Legalizing prostitution FREES the prostitute. Legalizing slavery does nothing for the slave except perhaps improve conditions marginally.

Further, the legalization of abortion has shown that it lead to a radical increase in abortion.

Let's see your statistics on this with some evidence of causation and proof that legalization just doesn't lead to more reporting and tracking.

The legalization will lead to an untold number of women being forced into sex slavery. Make no mistake, women will be forced into commercial sex work in greater numbers if it were legalized.

Logic would suggest the exact opposite. I think it's significant that you make this statement with no attempt to support or provide evidence for it. If prostitution is legalized then it can be regulated and the women involved can be protected and slavery can be removed from the formula. In fact, it's the only way to make that happen.

Dave

Again, you operate on the mistaken assumption that all women CHOOSE prostitution, something that is obviously false.

So instead of selling a person as property, you're ok with renting instead? How's that consistent?

Abortion is legal, and we STILL haven't figured out how to help little girls from being drug into Planned Parenthood to get the "evidence" destroyed. In fact, states are starting to pass laws against coerced abortion.

As far as the economics, be "lowering the entry cost" by legalizing prostitution, more people will be futher incentivized to enter the market (or force others to enter the market) because the cost-benefit is adjusted accordingly. Because there is absolutely no way to really protect against coercion, women will likely be forced into the market by pimps wanting to make a buck. You're a libertarian, follow the economics.

Statistics aren't evidence of causation and you know that or you wouldn't be bringing it up. Again, the economic argument should be enough to convince a libertarian.

Lastly, regulation is not protection, at best, it's ex post facto punishment... assuming there is any enforcement and monitoring mechanism. And I would think you of all people would know when money is on the line loopholes always seem to be found.

I don't understand how an editor let such a dishonest headline pass through. I hope the traffic is worth the integrity loss.

Plus, the writer lost me when he got up on his soapbox.

"More importantly though is that the advocacy for legalized prostitution and AIDS prevention are mutually exclusive. One cannot support the reduction of AIDS infections and support legal prostitution at the same time."

Really? You might want to share that info with the state of Nevada who appear to be doing both.

From Wikipedia: State law requires that registered brothel prostitutes be checked weekly for several sexually transmitted diseases and monthly for HIV; furthermore, condoms are mandatory for all oral sex and sexual intercourse. Brothel owners may be held liable if customers become infected with HIV after a prostitute has tested positive for the virus.

Here is the Statute to look up (NRS 041.1397)

You can't wish prostitution away. That's fine if you don't want to take part, but you sound very naive and childlike regarding how the world actually works.

Slavery and prostituion are not the same thing. Sure, there are women forced to do it, but making it legal will give them a better chance to get out of the life rather than keeping it underground. No one said all the problems would be solved, but some would regardless of your denial.

About your comment: Prostitution is not legal in Vegas. Thanks for yet another illustration of your lack of knowledge about the issue.

Ok, you got me on a technicality... prostitution is legal just OUTSIDE Vegas.

Ok, let's say you get all this regulation in place...

Exactly how do you plan to implement end-to-end HIV testing in the Third World where we can't even get food reliably? No one wants to pony up all the free drugs, so where are all these tests going to come from? What about the money to pay for it? Who is going to employ all the workers needed to process those tests in an accurate and efficient manner? Where's that money going to come from? Will children be able to be pimped out? If not, what's the cut off age? Who's going to enforce that? What will be done by the likely underground child prostitution ring that will be there?

And last, but not least, in the United States there are viable employment alternatives for prostitutes who get HIV. In the Third World there is not. When they get discovered how will you ensure they don't go back into underground prostitution because that's the only way they can sustain themselves?

Just because prostitution is legal in Nevada do you seriously belive that there is not (1) skirting of the rules, and (2) an underground prostitution operation that takes place under the radar?

You can parse all you want, the only difference between slavery and prostitution is the difference between buying and renting.

Again, you operate on the mistaken assumption that all women CHOOSE prostitution, something that is obviously false.

Only the case because it is illegal. Make it legal and slavery becomes impractical and it becomes a profession of choice, as it should be.

So instead of selling a person as property, you're ok with renting instead? How's that consistent?

If the person chooses to allow themselves to be used in that way, then that's their choice so long as the practice is free and legal.

Abortion is legal, and we STILL haven't figured out how to help little girls from being drug into Planned Parenthood to get the "evidence" destroyed. In fact, states are starting to pass laws against coerced abortion.

This has ZERO bearing on the prostitution issue.

As far as the economics, be "lowering the entry cost" by legalizing prostitution, more people will be futher incentivized to enter the market (or force others to enter the market) because the cost-benefit is adjusted accordingly.

This makes no sense at all. Legalizing prostitution would have an overall effect of raising prices which would reduce overall use of prostitutes, while regulation and safety assurances would reduce the marketability of non-legal prostitutes overall.

Because there is absolutely no way to really protect against coercion,

Not at all true if the practice is legal and regulated.

women will likely be forced into the market by pimps wanting to make a buck. You're a libertarian, follow the economics.

Pimps would be legal business men and would find it to their benefit to do business legitimately because they would be under no pressure to break the law in other ways and would be protected if they oberyed the law.

Lastly, regulation is not protection, at best, it's ex post facto punishment... assuming there is any enforcement and monitoring mechanism. And I would think you of all people would know when money is on the line loopholes always seem to be found.

Regulation and protection go hand in hand. Regulation would include punishment and an incentive to operate in a safe and healthy way. Legalization would remove the risk of arrest, so prostitutes could avail themselves of the protection of the law.

And while you can't provide examples, I can. In every place where prostitution has been legalized the result has been a reduction in crime and STDs. You might want to read this report especially its recommendations.

Dave

I don't understand how an editor let such a dishonest headline pass through. I hope the traffic is worth the integrity loss.

I let the headline through, CM. Yes, it's deceptive, but so is the entire article. Leaving it there to draw readers so they can read the article and be appropriately incensed is a desirable thing.

Dave

Here's a nice start to the New Year - I am in complete agreement with Dave Nalle on this. This piece is simply the latest of what has been an extremely poor series of articles from this extremist and entirely deluded writer.

"I am in complete agreement with Dave Nalle on this" Is it the apocolypse Chris? Is it the apocolypse?

Colonel Mustard, Dave, Chris,

Prostitution is legal in Israel. I don't mean the behavior of our politicians, I means renting one's body for the sexual pleasure of another. However pimping is not.

And what happens here is a perfect example of what happens when you have legalized prostitution under the firm control of criminal gangs, which is exactly what you would have if prostitution were to be legalized in such countries as India, Iran, and the rest of the Middle East, not to mention places such as Thailand and Malaysia.

Importing women from Russia, the Ukraine, and Moldavia as sex slaves here under the guise and pretense of providing young women work as nannies and au paires (and the majority of the young women who wind up as sex slaves here actually believe that they will be nannies, etc.) is a huge money-making industry in this country. Of course, the police look the other way. They are not paid enough by the state to enforce the law, so they take bribes to supplement the few thousand shekels that the State of Israel can afford to pay a cop each month. But, compared to India, and the "Palestinian Authority" (another joke) the Israel Police are the model of efficiency and honesty.

Let's cut down to the short strokes here. Supporting a family in Israel in a more than reasonable fashion (car, mortgage, computer, TV's, educational costs, etc.) requires at least NIS 12,000 ($2,850) a month net. A cop making NIS 12,000 net at the level of "shotér," a policeman without rank, will be hard to bribe. A new shotér makes roughly NIS 4,500 gross, and his net depends on his family situation (married, single, kids, etc.). Let's say, for the sake of argument, that he is married and that his wife makes NIS 4,800 gross. Together, they will pull in about 80% of the total, or 80% of NIS 9,300 - NIS 7,440. That level of income makes the cop on the beat here very bribeable. Once he is sucked into the system of taking the bribes, it is hard to get off, not to mention dangerous to one's life. So as the cop rises in the ranks, he has to keep his eyes closed to criminal activity in order to keep the mob from closing them permanently.

This is reality, not some first world fantasy, such as Col. Mustard poses here with his example of Nevada. I'm willing to bet that an Indian cop on the beat makes far less than an Israeli cop, making him even more bribeable. And I'm dead sure that a Nevada cop makes loads more money than an Israeli cop. And so long as the Nevada cop doesn't interfere with the "Big Basque" in Nevada, he is okay and not fish bait.

So, bottom line, making prostitution legal under any name does not get rid of the pimps or the mob control unless the cops who have to enforce the law (not to mention the judges) do not need the bribes of the criminal mob that employs/protects the pimps.

In a country like India or Israel where many institutions are dysfunctional, in spite of well written laws and regulations, AIDS and other sexually transmitted diseases will spread.

I leave you all to ponder the condition of the United States by contrast. If you wish to consider the United States in isolation in terms of legislation (the ACLU mean AMERICAN Civil Liberties Union), you must consider that airport security there does not screen for AIDS and STD's, and neither do the seaports. Boston, Mr. Bambenek's home base, is both a seaport and an airport.

So, Mr. Bambenek's analysis is far sounder than you all wish to admit. Sorry gents. "Boston Bambenek" (he won't thank me for that moniker) knows his beans. So line up at his soup kitchen of information and ladle yourselves another bowl. You may not like its taste, but it is laced with truth.

personally I think that federal monies should be withheld from any and all who refuse to sign a loyalty oath...in fact - fuck the dough and put citizenship itself on the line

as usual the valid content in John's argument are lost in his fallacious attack on an organization that he will never understand

Since Mr B conveniently provides a link to the ACLU's own web site, where their position is clearly explained, he dismantles his own headline and central argument.

Of course the ACLU is not deliberately encouraging prostitution. It is opposing the Bush administration's theocratic policies tied to AIDS funding. And rightly so.

If John is a genuine conservative, and not just an ideologue, he should be honest about the good work the ACLU does, much of which, if pressed, he'd have to admit that he probably agrees with and supports. Of course, that sort of honest appraisal of actual facts would deprive him of one of his favorite whipping boys. Caricatures are so much more fun, aren't they, John?

Ruvy, all you point out in your analysis of prostitution in Israel is that Israel is awfully close to being a third world nation and that the rule of law may not be that firmly established there. It has too many ties to the third world and to the former Soviet client states and the level of government corruption is much higher than in wetern european nations where prostitution has been legalized with positive results.

I doubt that JB cares about prostitution in Israel. If he's talking about the US, then he's still as wrong as ever on this issue.

Dave

Dave, you missed the point of my comment. If the mob can bribe a cop or a judge, it can control prostitution in any country. Having grown up in New York, I know something about mob control of judges and politicians. Legalizing prostitution in New York would NOT get rid of mob control of it there, and legalizing it in Massachusetts would not get rid of mob control of it there either.
Hence the real dangers of prostitution to the general populace, AIDS and STD's, would increase in those states.

This is besides the fact that prostitution is NOT a victimless crime, and the fact that many young and vulnerable women are lured or forced into being prostitutes even in the United States. I saw a lot of that in the malls of St. Paul and Minneapolis when I lived there, particularly when I lived on the streets...

"Israel is awfully close to being a third world nation and that the rule of law may not be that firmly established there.

Forget close to a third world nation. This is a third world nation. The rule of law and due process is a joke here.

Ruvy, even if legalization didn't entirely get rid of mob control, it would certainly reduce their role and put them in a situation where it would be to their benefit to play by the rules. Taking black and making it gray is better than leaving it black.

Dave

Just like legalization has gotten the mob out of gambling too...

Yeah...

There are some excellent treatment options for Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder; this fixation with the demonic ACLU suggests a need for help.

If we did legalize drugs, gambling and prostitution, and took half the money we now uselessly spend on "vice"-related law enforcement and used it instead for preventive education, treatment, counseling services, health and safety protections, and whatever else seems appropriate...would the drug/prostitution/gambling problems be any worse than they are now? And they might get better. And we could return the other half of the money to taxpayers.

At any rate, we never seem to make any headway with these problems with our current methods, and we make organized criminals very rich. So maybe it's worth looking at new approaches.

Not that any of this is related in any way to the ACLU!

Just like legalization has gotten the mob out of gambling too...


It has certainly reduced their role and most importantly encouraged their involvement to stay within more conventional boundaries. Casinos in Vegas and elsewhere are run legitimately and fairly within the rules set by the state, and there is scrupulous regulation that keeps criminal activity out of the casinos. Mob money may fund some of them, but their day to day operations involve no criminality.

Dave

"Just like legalization has gotten the mob out of gambling too..."

Are you saying the mob has as much control now of gambling as they did before? Please cite proof, if you can.

No one other than you is making the claim that legalisation of prostitution will make it 100% safe, but to act like keeping it illegal and underground is the best thing for all women involved is woefully ignorant of the situation.

Why is it that we must all agree that AIDS is not a gay disease but if a person in any way would like to use money for AIDS research or funding on something else they will be called homophobic or other such things by certain other people?

hmm. i don't think calling someone homophobic is the usual response when "money for AIDS research or funding" is spent "on something else." you're the first person to mention the word "gay" or "homo-" anything since the second sentence of the article. or screed. whatever.

aids is a world-wide problem, and most people recognize that.

oh yeah, i want to add my voice to the mountain of criticism this piece of shit article is receiving. what a bunch of malarkey. john bambenek does not represent the right's stances well at all, and he doesn't need to be an editor, because he needs an editor. someone to tell him to stop barking up the same tree... if it ain't the aclu, it's university, and if it ain't university it's minorities. he's taking on the aclu, which opens itself up to attack by protecting those no one else will protect, and he fouls that up by misrepresentation, lies and paranoid fantasy. bleh.

Dave:

I agree completely with you on this (minus the curse words).

Let me preface this by saying I personally am against prostitution based on my personal moral values. However legally, the ACLU is right on this one.

John, I cant believe your logic.

Do you realize that what prostitutes actually want to do is to apply industry standards like other industries where by prostitutes have STD test on a regular bases, to attain licensing. They also propose a system where there is a co-op of sorts where they can get insurance and other benefits. They would also pay taxes. Madams would have to also be regulated and the pimp system would deteriorate.

Again, I am against prostitution personally but legally it makes no sense to tell adults under what reasons they may have sex if both parties concede.

I don't really know what legalizing it would do to our moral fiber as a nation. I am sure a lot of women will chose to prostitute instead of other professions if they can do it without breaking the law. However, stripping is legal and droves of young women aren't doing it so the stigma may keep prostitution from being too inviting.

Dave you were truly a Libertarian on this one !!!!!!!!

Logic:

Dating is legal

Date rape exists

Make dating illegal(????)


Driving exists

Americans break traffic laws

Ban driving????


If prostitution is legalized and regulated like every other industry, there will be law breakers. Is anyone surprised???