how do you counter claims that accidental gun deaths and round the bend wack job massacres probably outweigh any actual self defense benefits of easily available guns - ?

best never to forget that stupidity is also a god given right

(sorry to hear about the ticker...look into diet*ary supplemen*tation with omega 3 fatty acids and coenzime Q 10)

(sheesh - lungs I mean)

That's ok, thanks Troll,
this is one of those subjects that you can find any kind of supporting data depending on your frame of mind when searching. As far as wack jobs, all the laws in the world won't stop someone, (mostly men for some ungodly reason, how frikkin embarrassing is that?) from buying a gun on the streets and climbing a tower or going to school.
I seem to end up on the Education and control side of these subjects.( guns, drugs, alcohol,etc.)
Obviously laws stop nothing except from law abiding citizens. With that in mind, you've taken away a tool of self defense from an educated, lawful person. Now the bad guys feel as though they have not a thing to worry about since the most he'll encounter is a baseball bat. I'll take my .45 over a bat any day.
As far as accidents go, there will always be stupid people around(see my link on CHILDREN)
This is why I believe above all else that someone who is going to buy a gun lawfully should have classes on safety and handling and a certificate of proof with the application. This is the procedure here in Fl. but I believe the classes should be more comprehensive, focussing more on "can I kill? and use on several types of weapons, drawing the weapon and handling. Believe it or not, if you have a gun on your person that's not accessible without twisting and searching and drawing attention ,well...
Guns will always be there, education will make them safer than an automobile.
This site will give statistics reflected in every case study I could find for here in Florida, except for blogs whith writers pulling numbers out of their ass without any verification
Peter

You sound like a very responsible person, Peter. But I can't help wondering whether there are several thousand technically law-abiding people with poorer judgment and self-control than you carrying guns...and if so, I don't think they add anything to the safety of the rest of us. And even nice guys can lose their tempers.

My main problem with the gun lobby and 2nd-amendment supporters comes with their insistence on keeping other kinds of weapons legal and available...assault rifles, etc. Legitimate hunting weapons, fine. Personal handguns, well, they make me nervous, but if you can convince me there's a way to ensure as many as possible of the people who have them are trained in their proper and safe use, maybe OK. Lotta ifs there, though.

And don't a lot of legal guns make their way into the criminal world? Is there a way to staunch that flow?

My father hunted, and a variety of rifles, shotguns and pistols were around the house. Neither the guns nor ammunition were secured. I used to play with them when my parents weren't home.

I used to hunt with my father and my uncle from about when I was 12.

I empathize with your story about the flat tire.

I don't think calling 911 would solve the situation either.

It is interesting to note that the gun did not have to be fired. I also have doubt that the dog understood the significance of the gun.

The kids and the car? My experience is that those that look frightened are easy targets. Witnessing the backing off of the dog, probably one or both having a tire iron or something similar, would incline them to pass this one up.

The only new perspective I got from this article is that Rottweilers can apparently recognise guns and obey commands from people weilding them. Impressive stuff...

As someone who learned to handle a diverse range of weapons as a 16-year old soldier neither guns nor the prospect of being left with no choice but to shoot somebody bother me particularly and, were I living in contemporary USA, I'd almost certainly have one.

That said, I'm really glad to be living in Europe where the sight of a gun, except when carried by the police or the military, is still quite a rare thing.

Peter J: You're now up to #25 comments, well done! However, please take a moment to visit htmlcodetutorial.com and absorb how to make a link active as per Blogcritics protocol. Thank you!!

Comments Editor

I usually carry a shotgun in my truck - it's almost required here in Texas. But I've never felt the need to carry a personal handgun, despite having one.

I do from time to time carry a friend around who has a permit to carry concealed and I assume that he does, and it neither concerns me, nor does it give me a huge extra boost of confidence in my safety.

With the concealed carry law here in Texas criminals are in the habit of assuming that most people are carrying guns - especially middle aged white guys in pickups - so they tend to leave you alone. And that's the whole point.

The gun doesn't have to always be present for its potential presence to have benefits.

Dave

when I go to a job in the wilds here in the rockies I load my pistol with snake shot - additionally I carry a load to put down a suffering animal

It is indeed a luxury to be able to assume that none of my friends, acquaintances, or even passers-by will be armed.

After the Port Arthur massacre, they sort of got rid of what few guns people were allowed to have here in Australia. Personally, I've only ever seen guns on guards in the Philippines, two years ago.

Do you think when the Constitution said 'bear arms' they meant one has the right have arms as hairy as a bear? Or perhaps the secretary heard incorrectly and whosoever said 'the right to bear arse'.

I mean no disrespect, just being flippant.

"As someone who learned to handle a diverse range of weapons as a 16-year old soldier neither guns nor the prospect of being left with no choice but to shoot somebody bother me particularly and, were I living in contemporary USA, I'd almost certainly have one."
- CR

Chris,
You were in the service?

Handyguy, I agree that you can't count on an angry person pulling a weapon but that sort of person with that much poor judgement probably doesn't concern himself with a permit anyway.
I have been provoked a few times and the first thing I do when I feel I'm losing my temper is to hand the gun to someone I trust if there is someone about. If it's come to that and I'm alone (if it feels it's going to come to a fight situation) I would tell the person I'm armed and would have to make a move before anything went down.. As I said, I'm pretty knowlegable in streetfighting and it would work great for about the first 30 to 40 seconds and I wouldn't be breathing much. I'd be in a life or death situation, as I'm sure would be the case for many people.
As far as putting guns on the street, I would never sell a gun to someone I didn't know and have had to turn down several people who have asked to borrow one at times.

Les, you sound pretty much like my situation, as far as the dogs go I've thought the same thing about a show of force but when you have 2 smaller dogs on a leash I wouldnt want to be fidget fuckun around smacking one of my dogs had he advanced.

Christopher, When did the police in Europe start carrying? I thought they pretty much depended on batons?

Hey Dave, that's the whole point.
As time goes on it's assumed that everyone may be carrying a gun, making bad guys more apt to fuck off. These people are always chicken shit fools who prey on the weak and timid but if they believe there may be retaliation they back off.

Troll, It must be a great job that takes you out to the Rockies, no place better than with very few people. It's a good guy who's concerned about animals suffering.
Unfortunately I've known too many hunters who take a shot knowing they're only going to wound and track. More people who give guns a bad name.

MCH: Yes, British Army, 2 years, didn't see active service, didn't like it, too many orders for this little rebel!

Peter J: That's pretty much just the British police as far as I know. They're funny, those island folk!

Here on the mainland, pretty much all the police are packing. In Spain, there are three different police forces, Local, National and the Guardia Civil, and they're all armed.

I love flippant, it used to get me smacked in the head by the nuns on a daily basis when I was a boy,(seems about a hundred years ago rather than 50)

I don't know what happened in this country that kept it so volatile. I,m not a cultural psychologist. But maybe it's because , historically we're like dog years. we're only 2 yrs old.

We're a bunch of spoiled brats, always trying to get over on "Mommy" with no real regard for anyone but ourselves.
We can't even recognize who or what we are politically so we find a clic with, not necessarily the same beliefs, but in the same vein as our own tantrums; "you like Bush, I hate Bush so fuck-off". Nevermind that you both agree on every other issue 100%. What is that? It's childish ignorance. "I'll hold my breath till I turn blue if you don't like abortions, ,,I'll blow you up if you do,,I have too much regard for life to abide with abortions"

We have a lot of growing pangs to contend with yet, I can't wait till we hit puberty!

Peter,

I found your article most interesting, particlularly the points about concealing a weapon. Since living in Israel, I've learned to use a pistol, an M1 and an M16, and have gotten used to the sight of people carrying rifles to synagogue, guns in their belt, and various other weapons as needed. If I could afford it, I'd prefer to carry a gun, but here if one carries a gun, he is expected to wear it in a visible holster in his belt. Only the Shabak and Mossad get to conceal weapons legally here.

Troll, I thought I'd take a shot at "how do you counter claims that accidental gun deaths and round the bend wack job massacres probably outweigh any actual self defense benefits of easily available guns - ?"

This is very much a cultural thing.

The accidental gun deaths are a function of how much those entrusted with them pay attention to the basics of gun safety, i.e. not aiming a weapon at a person without intent to fire, making sure the gun and the ammo is securely stored (away from kids), that the weapon is free of ammo when put away, making sure that it is cleaned regularly, etc, etc.

It is rumored that one of Ariel Sharon's sons died because of careless gun-play on the kid's part, so accidents do happen here, and parents can be careless...

But the rest is all a function of the culture. So, for esample, in Israel, two Jewish guys, both of whom may be wearing guns, can get into a argument and even a fight, and neither will draw his gun. It is understood here that the gun is for self defense in a military sense. The exception to the rule is Russian Jews, who may pull a weapon and fire.

Arabs are different. They will use a gun to kill far more readily than will a Jew. The result is that when you hear about murders here (NOT terrorist deaths), you usually here of Arabs killing other Arabs, or Russians killing other Russians. As in the States, most murders are committed by people who know each other.

Thus, the issue of gun control does not really revolve around whether a gun kills or a person does, but around the culture of guns in a particular society. In America, I'd be among those urging gun control, OR carrying a visible weapon in a holster, as one does here.

Nice job, Peter.

"We have a lot of growing pangs to contend with yet, I can't wait till we hit puberty!"

And when you do you probably will realize that you won't need to own a gun to feel safe.

What a waste of time.

Ruvy,
I tend to agree with you as far as it being a cultural sensation in most states here. Once the permission is granted and those who want legal permission get it, eventually it becomes almost second nature.

As far as display, I don't know if that would serve as well as concealed. It's been ten years in Florida and you rarely hear of anyone whose abuse has caused a problem. The fact that the murder by gun rate has declined so rapidly leads me to believe that more people who may attempt a gun in a robbery may be deterred by the unknown fact that there may be another gun in play.

The most some jerk will do who carries a gun is to flash it in traffic, that's a problem. If he flashes at another gun carrier there most certainly be gun fire.

It should occur to some of our leaders that rather than cajoling separatism in the races (the way of the wasp) and classes it would be better served to start treating each class and race with equality, otherwise people who once were the majority become the minority and extremely bitter. We're not capable of looking around the world to see the net result of such actions.

We have an odd culture in that you can almost attribute the types of attacks to different races. Without going into detail and at the risk of being thought of as a rascist you will see one race almost exclusively stabbing each other while another will just use their fists. Streetfighting can be just about as dangerous as a gun or a knife in some instances.

This country has more ridiculous and childish issues than any country in the world. It is indeed an enigma. Like I said, still in its infancy stages.

I've seen and heard much talk in my life from different sectors who are just waiting for a racial uprising. It scares me as that once something like this starts, it never ends. Without any sort of gun control at all there are already enough handguns, machine guns, hunting rifles, shotguns, grenade launchers to set tis country back 200 years.

We were at a point in the 60s that things were beginning to come together. Bobby Kennedy and Martin Luther King were on the verge of settling racial matters once and for all, I believe it was going to happen. Had they lived I believe that this would be a totally different world. We probably wouldn't be discussing the need for guns.
But there are (Oh Oh, here comes paranoia)
factors at work whose best interest it is to maintain separatism and their tools are guns,drugs, racial devisivness etc. They can maintain their positions as the elite just as long as the rest of the country is too busy pissing at each other than to get their shit together and unite.
But, I could be way wrong.

It may be a waste of time to you martin but had I not had a gun one evening in my shop, alone with my wife, my life, if I still had it, would have most certainly been changed for the worse.

The problem I have is not with people such as you, Peter. If the kind of training and self-restraint you obviously have were mandatory & I had confidence that others would show similar good judgment, I might feel differently about handguns.

But, as you've noted twice, we ain't a society of adults, and too many loonies can get guns. Until the kind of training you advocate is mandatory and effective, I fear I'm going to have to come down on the side of those who'd ban hand guns.

In Jameson Veritas

If we're going to start banning things based on accidental death statistics, there are quite a few things ahead of guns that would have to be banned also. Doctors, 5 gallon buckets, cars.

Guns are tools. Like ANY tool, it can be put to good use, or bad use. And if we even bothered to enforce all the current gun laws on the books, I think we'd find out we have a few too many already.

"The most some jerk will do who carries a gun is to flash it in traffic, that's a problem. If he flashes at another gun carrier there most certainly be gun fire."


This sums up the lunacy of your argument perfectly. In other words, no guns, no flash, no flash, no flash. Get it?

I'm glad you and your wife are okay Peter, I truly am, but since you don't provide any details about the incident other than your belief that without your gun you would be dead, I have to assume that it could be assumed that just like the barking dog, a car-jack or a scream may have worked just as effectively.

When I look around and see the angry motorists, the angry inner city kids and even the tempers of people in the last election I wonder how we got to this in the 21st century.

I think about the reality of carrying the weapon and wonder why I've encountered these situations and so many others have not. Am I out looking for things to happen? Absolutely not.

The few times I've actually used this gun makes me wonder if I really do need it. Then I remember the times that I have and assess the alternatives. I don't even like to think of the possibilities, had anything happened to my wife in that bodyshop that night and I survived, the only life I would know would be hunting down and killing these pieces of shit and anyone who got in my way. I know myself all to well. I think that's why I carry more than anything else, to protect myself from myself. I feel secure that I will be able to protect my family from the possibilities of this world.

I also ask myself why have I gotten into these situations where others have not. This I can't answer aside from I've never been afraid to venture place to place. As a kid, I grew up in South Boston which was a pretty bad place. Just to move from neighborhood to neighborhood was risky business but I never let that stop me. That could be why I've taken so many more beatings than most I knew but I liked being a loner with no allegiance to any one particular gang aside from one where I spent most of my time.
Nobody had guns back then so it wasn't an issue, plus I could breath, which helps a lot.

As far as banning guns, most states still do and their deathrates from guns per capita is higher than states without bans.
And now Mark, you've forced me to use that tired cliche',
"If all guns were banned then only owtlaws would have guns".
Now why'd you have to go and do that?

What Al #20 said!

I have your answer.....
Is called seeing through shit colored glasses.
You need help. The world is not that bad and people aren't out to get you.
Fear no evil dude.

I think you have it all wrong Martin,
I actually have a terrific outlook on life. In spite of some health issues I consider myself extremely fortunate as compared to so many others I know or hear about on the news. In fact I feel so good I don't try to berate people who I don't agree with.

As far as this gun issue goes, I barely realive I have it on any more and the only reason that I happened to write about it is because of an incident which just took place which was a bit similar to the story I told.

My wife and I were walking our two dogs, a Lhasa Apso and a Cocker Spaniel. It was dusk ands we were getting close to home. It was a Rottweiler who came at us from the left and wasn't more than ten feet away when I pulled the gun. He was focused on my dogs. He had no collar and was totally unfamiliar to me.

By the time he actually stopped he was just several feet from my dogs and they were both (stupid) stretching their leashes and barking which is what he started doing. He was not going to stop, he was as close to my dogs as he could get and even with my shouting and the gun he was sstill advancing as we were backing up , myself backwards with the gun trained on him. My gun has about a 1/2" pull before it fires and I had it right on the spot. I have no doubt that with a stick or a tire iron (which I don't carry) ther would have been a bloody mess in the road and possibly one or both of my dogs hurt or dead.

Why do people like you have to be insulting to be dis-agreeable? Do ya feel better now?

Lord knows we need some lone voice in America with the balls to stand up and say that gun ownership is A-Okay. I mean -- with some 200 MILLION guns in private hands -- and some 280 million people, there's a good chance that a few toddlers are going around unarmed.

Man, it's hell to be in a persecuted minority, so thanks for speaking out on this controversial subject. I needed to know I'm not alone!

=========

PS:

I've needed a Stinger missle.

...twice in the last few months!



Can't buy 'em here, tho.



[mutters] ...liberal bastards.

=======

Gotta run.

I'm in the middle of attaching a pearl handle to my Rottweiler's ass.

I can get you such a deal if you'll take 1/2 a doz. and a Huey

Peter, don't forget about the importance of education for minors and adults who don't carry a gun.

A few minutes at the shooting range could save your child's life. You never know which neighbour has a gun at home, or whether he practices basic gun safety. Kids get into things, especially if they know they shouldn't. Simple safety lessons are available - they should be mandatory. And the sound and the recoil of a weapon can be enough to convince a child that firearms are serious. Of course, adults can benefit from safety lessons as well as from learning their way around a weapon.

Baronius,
You get the gold star on your forehead,, no, don't worry, it's not a target.
I asked one simple question:
"Do You Know If Your Friends Are Armed And Would It Matter?"

Another true story: an employee, 17 yr old kid, doesnt show for work one Fri morning. He comes rushing in at about 11: am and wants his check. No, I say, I'll have it for you at the end of the day. "please, I've gotta go, I'm in big trouble" Curious as I am , "O yea,? what kind of trouble?"
"I just killed a kid" This from someone like your own son, not some punk. "slow down, what are you talking about?" "We were hangin at this guys house and we were messin with this gun, a 38, and I pointed it at him and he said, 'go ahead, shoot'. I don't know what happened, it just went off." Jeeziz Christ, when? "just now". where? "at the apartments up the street, can I just have my check?" Afraid not., you just left him, is he still alive? "I don't know, we just ran."
What the fuck is wrong with you, He may still be alive, where did you shoot him? "In the head, there was blood and stuff everywhere".
All of my blood drained to my feet as I dialed 911,he may still be alive, reported it anonymously and then called a friend whose a lawyer to help him turn himself in.
Truth.

If that kid had had just one afternoon with me he would have never, ever aimed that gun. There would be a young man alive today, about 40 yrs old now, probably with a wife and kids, but just because someone never had training, he is not. now don't go and tell me something dumb, the obvious answer from unrealistic people or I'll say something equally stupid such as "if only that drunk didn't get in that car", or "if only that semi driver had proper driver training"
If only Santa really had a reindeer like Rudolph.

I taught my daughter at 12 yrs old to fire a 38 and showed her exactly what happens to a melon when shot with hollow points from 10 ft.

My daughter is now 31, lives on her own and keeps that same 38 in her nightstand. We go to the range on many occassions and she has turned out to be the safest handler I know and a much better shot than I. I'll be damned if I ever have to say "if only".

Peter J: Isn't your pro-gun stance blinding you to the fact that this event wouldn't have happened if your employee's friend didn't have a gun? Thanks for the evidence in support of disarming America.

A second thought: If I was an American criminal and knew that so many civilian people were armed, I'd simply get more and bigger weapons and start using them sooner and more aggressively. It's called evolution - or the arms race...

Christopher, even with the laws have we can't keep drugs out of people's hands, or alcohol away from minors, or even make everyone obey speed limits, why do you think disarming people would stop gun crime? In Peter's example, it's never mentioned if the gun is legal or not, but one practical "lesson learned" that leaps to the fore is thatif the kid had n=known the first rule of gun safety; "Always treat a weapon as if it was loaded", he would not have shot anyone with the gun, legal or not.

Peter's point is that people have the right to self defense, and firearms ownership fall under that, but that those who have a firearm should be responsible. The reason we have laws against misuse of firearms is hopefully get people to consider the consequences of neglect, or of violent use of firearms. Laws do not prevent crime in and of themselves, laws are only deterrents, and as a guideline for punishment when the laws are disregarded.

I don't own a firearm of any sort, but I probably will when my lifestyle permits it. I enjoy target shooting, and think it is a useful skill.

Peter, excellent article!

BTW, you've heard the expression "An armed society is a polite society"? I guess Israel proves that's not necessarily true.

SFC SKI: I can't see any connection or correlation between drink, drug and driving laws and the proliferation of weapons in the USA so that's all moot.

My point, and it's pretty irrefutable is that, in the situation Peter J described, without the presence of a gun it couldn't have happened. Equally, it seems pretty simple that with a lot less weapons around, they'd be used less.

People aren't machines and don't always act according to the dictates of reason or common sense so I find the education and training argument somewhat unpersuasive.

When people go on about the right to self defense, my first instinctive reaction is, defense against what? For most people fortunate enough to enjoy life in a mature or stable democracy, there seems precious little to defend oneself against.

Armed criminals, you may suggest, but I would counter by saying that the only thing preventing a systematic and practical campaign of disarming criminals is the lack of political will and/or the lobbying power of the arms industry.

MAOZ: There's a lot of countries you could add to that list!

Peter J.:
"Why do people like you have to be insulting to be dis-agreeable? Do ya feel better now?"

"When I look around and see the angry motorists, the angry inner city kids and even the tempers of people in the last election I wonder how we got to this in the 21st century.

I think about the reality of carrying the weapon and wonder why I've encountered these situations and so many others have not. Am I out looking for things to happen?"

Come on Peter, you see all this ugliness in the world and you're scared, so you feel better carrying a gun. That in itself creates the ugliness. Don't you see that?

Christopher, I see by your comments above that you and I have a worldview that goes far beyond, IMO, you living in Britain, if I remember correctly, and me being from various states in America, as well as having resided outside the US.

The point of contention between us might be summed up here, "without the presence of a gun it couldn't have happened." True, but the gun was there, and the person who fired it had no idea how to use it. IN this same way, drugs are illegal, if they weren't there, people would not use them, yet people still manage to find illegal drugs and use them.

As for the violent use of firearms, violent people find all sorts of ways to practice violence, guns are just another tool. Also, violence is not bred from poverty or lack of opportunity, otherwise the poor would never stop rioting and the rich would never kill anyone. Violence is a part of human nature that fortunately most of us keep under control.

You say you are unpersuaded as to the benefits of education and training; I'll grant you that you can't make people smart or responsible, but you can attempt to do so, and you can make it clear that it is in their best interests to be responsible, and that is about as much you can do.

As for the deterrence of violent crime by being armed, first off, even in Peter J.'s examples, he rarely had to even draw the firearm, but each time he had to, it was an appropritate time to do so. Europe has plenty of violent crime perpetrated against unarmed citizens, the only difference is, the Europeans can only be more scared unless the government protects them. Obviously, the government can't be everywhere at once.

Again, I have lived all over the US, but I have never owned a firearm, even though my profession makes firearms use almost routine. Not all Americans feel the need to own a firearm, at the same time, if you live or work in a bad neighborhood, being armed is not a bad idea.

I have been to England, but I can't claim any insight or opinion as to why the British are so unlike the Americans in regards to violence and gun ownership. For that matter, what are the gun laws in Australia like?

CR says:

Peter J: Isn't your pro-gun stance blinding you to the fact that this event wouldn't have happened if your employee's friend didn't have a gun? Thanks for the evidence in support of disarming America.

That argument assumes that outlawing guns will do away with them, which IMO, is a false assumption.

Americans of all backgrounds and ages continually break all the laws we already have, why would a law banning guns be observed more than the drug laws, for example?

You say:

SFC SKI: I can't see any connection or correlation between drink, drug and driving laws and the proliferation of weapons in the USA so that's all moot.

Your saying the point is moot doesn't make it so. Explain why you think Americans are more likely to obey a gun ban law than those others Ski mentioned?

And:

Armed criminals, you may suggest, but I would counter by saying that the only thing preventing a systematic and practical campaign of disarming criminals is the lack of political will and/or the lobbying power of the arms industry.

Point taken. But let's assume for the moment that the political will is found and the gun lobby is neutralized. Why do you think that people who are not afraid of breaking laws against robbery, assault or murder are going to be intimidated by a gun ban? Doesn't make sense. And a "systematic" plan to identify gun owners and seize their guns would likely be uncostitutional.

Finally, we already have a number of laws on the books which, if enforced, would go a long way toward achieving both control ownership of guns and reducing the incidence of accidental gun mishaps at least. These laws are erratically enforced at best.

A better and more realistic approach to reducing gun violence would be better enforcement of existing laws.

And, unlike a gun ban, wouldn't be unconstitutional.

But there's a positive experience to using drugs and drinking alcohol. I've never been seriously scared about being shot anywhere in Europe, ever. The same can't be said of the USA and I've only spent a total of a few months there, not decades as here.

For the record, I'm an Englishman living in Spain; I find the island life a little provincial and too self-obsessed for me. And rainy. And cold. And dark!

"But there's a positive experience to using drugs and drinking alcohol."

Tell that to millions of people effected by drug and alcohol abuse.

The fact that drug or alcohol abuse exists doesn't negate my statement, Mr Lav; there is a positive experience to be had. And the Editor part of me says you mean "affected"... ;-)

No Mr. editor I think you mean effect if that's what you're after.....

The issue is simple. If a criminal wants to kill someone with a gun, s/he will find a gun and do the deed. Last time I checked, in countries like England where handguns are more or less banned people still get shot with handguns by criminals. The laws only effect the law-abiding.
What is the probability that your home will catch on fire? Do you own a fire extinguisher? Why own a fire extinguisher when the fire department will protect you?

What part of the US were you in where u thought u were in danger of being shot? Compton? Inner city Detroit?

There are parts of any big city anywhere in the world which are dangerous regardless of the level of gun control.

The simple fact is that the more widespread guns are the lower the incidence of crime. The preice paid forthat is a small increase in gun accidents which are so rare they hardly even register compared to other causes of death.

Christopher,
I suggest that if you think gun bans will reduce or prevent violent crime, Google "Joyce Lee Malcom and Mad Dogs and Englishmen"

You will get a succint summary of the incredible mess in the UK due to gun bans, self-defense bans and a judicial activism that incarcerates people if they "pose a menace to burglars".

In the US, if your idea works, Washington DC should be a paradise from criminality, especailly the violent kind. Have they called off the "police emergency" declared months ago due to a spiraling murder rate?

Cultural factors definitely mitigate or promote violent crime. The average Swiss male keeps his army rifle and a basic load of ammo in his home, and recreational shooting is a regular pastime for many. Gun oriented violence is very low, in fact all violent crime is very low.

Mexico is on the flip side. Many impediments for ordinary people to own guns, lots of gun violence.

The key issue is the evil within people, and what that evil will allow them to do. The tool has virtually nothing to do with it.

I suggest you also look into the work by Gary Kleck and John Lott. Peer-reviewed studies with hard data available to anyone. Armed citizens who undertake the right to own and the obligations imposed make life safer, in the net result, for all in the US.

LUMPY: :"The simple fact is that the more widespread guns are the lower the incidence of crime."

-- Which means Baghdad is currently the safest city in the world.

I love logic!

======

Gotta run; I'm performing an abortion while smoking a joint and cleaning my 9mm.

Anyone who thinks that, in general, British police aren't armed is living in cloud cuckoo land. Maybe the bobby on the street (there for P.R. purposes) isn't armed, but many, if not most, police cars have gunsafes in their trunk, and many officers on special duty have them on their person.

The reason: In a country where guns are totally illegal, they are commonly available on the black market and even Uzis are used from time to time for driveby shootings.

Which means Baghdad is currently the safest city in the world

What brilliant sarcasm. Hmmm. . . now for some real logic. Bagdad is a war zone. We sent our troops over there with the intent to kill. Baghdad is unsafe because there is a war going on.

We're talking about normal cities. Check the statistics. What Lumpy said is true.

#26. How many Stinger Missle's you want to buy amigo? We give you discount you infidel pig.

Gotta run; I'm performing an abortion while smoking a joint and cleaning my 9mm.

Damn, Shark. Sounds like you're ready to join my version of the GOP.

Dave

Most of my friends have two arms, although another only has one and a half from a car smash. Another has two arms, but three and a half fingers missing on one hand from when they got on the piss at a barbecue and tried to chop some more wood.

Does that count?

Christopher Rose said: "Yes, British Army, 2 years, didn't see active service, didn't like it, too many orders for this little rebel!"

They marched him up to the top of the hill, then they marched him down again.

And when he was up he was up.

And when he was down he was down.

And when he was only half way up,
he was neither up nor down.

(Apologies to The Grand Old Duke of York and rugby club songbooks everywhere. Cricket starts on Thursday in Brisbane old boy, first Test at the 'Gabba ... as I'm sure you're well aware. Your mob are toast.)

The Constitution seems pretty clear, if you want to make laws against guns, change the constitution.

Good luck with that.