One supposes that Bush basically told Rumsfeld to have a resignation letter prepared--that if they retained House control, he would be permitted to stay, but if they lost it he would have to go.

All I want to know is: now do we get to torture him?

"Bush did meet with Gates on Sunday"

Must have been a coincidence.....

Bush should have let him go a year ago...two years ago...so Dr. Kurt could be well into his torture. And of course the meeting between Bush & Gates was just a coincidence. Gates was just driving by and thought he stop in for a beer.

The rest is silence.

Let us hope that Bush suffers the same fate Mark, and in the same fashion.

Ah Jet, now we can't let ourselves stoop to their level can we?

Well...

O.k., maybe, but I don't want to get caught.

The Rest Is Silence

He should be put in uniform and made to patrol central Baghdad, then he needs to spend a day nude in a cell in abu graib, and then another as someone's bitch at guantnomo bay.

If I sound bitter, it's because I am

Decafination insensitive

I think we can all agree that we should end Iraq as soon as possible.

But can we also not all agree that we should end it in a way that will not embolden the terrorists and cause the Iraqi and other mideast civilians who may not be so adverse to the USA to lose all faith in us?

To just pull out of Iraq now would ruin our country in the eyes of the world. We'd look like whipped dogs with tails tucked. No way to appear in the era we live in - our national security would be breeched.

Main problem partisan issues continue to cloud the eyes and brains of the public and politicians.

Bush allowing that he knew Rumsfeld would be stepping down and then the action takes place after the elections shows that Bush continues to publicly exude bad judgement; if he wanted to help his party you'd think he'd have broken this news prior to the election, but most importantly, Rummy should have been outed long ago.

Terrorism and the Muslim Extremist Movement is a real and growing beast; we need to be aware and do what we are able to stop the spread. Taking the Ghandi approach will not serve our nation. It will get us killed and our way of life terminated.

Hate Bush if you will - but evacuating Iraq at this point, not an option.

Evacuating troops from Iraq this New York minute is not a good idea, no; but it sure as hell puts the idiot Iraqis on notice that they'd better get their acts together and LEARN how to be an army & a police force & a government instead of dicking around arguing with each other interminably - because now we ARE leaving, not staying the course for an indeterminate amount of time which is what Junior kept promising them.

As for Junior's tossing of Rummy to the political wolves, even the troops in Iraq are saying, it's 3 YEARS too late for it to do any substantive good. But Bush was & remains too stupid, stubborn, small, & incompetent to admit to error & make any changes until absolutely forced with his back against the wall to do so. I'm sure the thousands of US troops who died due to his stupidity & intransigence, and their families, will be grateful to Dubya for finally making the change, hey?

And right there is another good reason to pursue impeachment: criminal negligence leading to the unnecessary deaths of > 3,000 Americans in Iraq.

"To just pull out of Iraq now would ruin our country in the eyes of the world."

The US was ruined when it invaded Iraq under false pretenses. When you talk about "terrorism" don't overlook US state terrorism or the topic becomes ridiculously one sided.

Watch for Rumsfeld's guest appearance on Saturday Night Live when we get to see what a regular guy he really is.

When you talk about "terrorism" don't overlook US state terrorism or the topic becomes ridiculously one sided.

And don't forget that when someone makes a statement like this you can just skip everything else they say and move on to see if someone who's not a socialist nutcase has something useful to say.

Dave

"embolden the terrorists"

Exactly what the war in Iraq did and is doing.
As far as I can tell they seemed to be pretty bold already flying a couple of planes into our buildings.....
But since our borders now seem to extend all the way to Iraq, I guess we don't have to worry about the homeland being invaded, except by maybe illegal aliens......

Arch et al., I agree completely that we have to find a way to win this thing, even if it means partioning the country, and leave with our dignity intact and our with absolutely no one questioning the will of the American people.

One of the reasons I dislike Bush so much is because of the damage he's done the institution of the presidency.

Now, of course, there's this little problem of how the hell do you do it. We're in so deep and it's such a screwed up place that we need a true genius. Bush offered me the SecDef job, but I turned it down. I'd be lost.

The rest is silence

oh, dave. you really think we're some sort of saints? open your fucking eyes. there is no definitive good or bad anymore, just opposing sides. their (islam's) anger stems from our actions as much as our's stems from their's.

for someone with such obvious intellect, you can really be blindly stupid sometimes.

what the fuck does socialism have to do with recognizing that the u.s. is not always in the right?

socialism... oh... frightening...

find yourself a new scary ghost.

"To just pull out of Iraq now would ruin our country in the eyes of the world. We'd look like whipped dogs with tails tucked. No way to appear in the era we live in - our national security would be breeched."

All speculation on your part. But it is revealing of the way you think, which seems to be: if you're not constantly fighting you're a coward.

And don't forget that this is the danger that the Warrior Class exposed us to when they lied cheated and schemed start this godforsaken war. They did not think, they did not consider, they did not consult. They elbowed everyone else aside on behalf of their belligerence. They did not learn from Nixons agony about withdrawing from Vietnam, that extended THAT war several years on behalf of his personal ego.

I hate to put this into a sports perspective but Iraq needs to start quarterbacking their own game. We provided a nice offensive line, however if the defense breaks through or the line isn't there for some reason the QB needs to turn on the juice and run for yardage himself. I mean... they want us gone... we want us gone... so let's go. I mean... what? are thousands of terrorists just waiting on the sidelines for us to leave so they can take over Iraq?...who's ass have we been kicking over there then? And what is this "don't leave till the job is done". Define "job" and how realistic is it's ability to be completed? If need be...we can come back but that shouldn't be nessessary. If you depend on a body guard for too long, you will never be able to fight for yourself.

Some people have been suckered for so long they still try to deny that US state terrorism is a fact of death. They're so used to playing mind games with themselves, the mass murder of innocent men, women and children in Iraq is written off a "collateral damage". The dead bodies of the victims of US terrorism continue to pile up, but to the simple-minded the murder of those human beings isn't a crime against humanity if the murderers wear US uniforms, wave the Stars and Stripes and follow orders. When the idiot who ordered the invasion of Iraq can still stand before his countrymen, hypocritically babbling about the verdict in the Saddam Hussein trial without being jeered off the podium, you can rest assured that a substantial number of Americans are more than a few bricks shy of a load.

Dear David,

Again you harp on the term socialist. This has been the tactic of the Bush administration. When someone does not agree with you, call him a socialist, or a communist, or a leftist wingnut. These are ad hominem remarks (look it up) and do not advance anything. We kept up the war in Vietnam for ten years and then were driven out. We have no business being in Iraq. We are merely sitting ducks between two religious factions who are murdering each other and we are caught in the middle. That old chestnut about bringing democracy or Christianity to the Arabs won't hold water. To accuse the Iraquis of 9/11 is also ridiculous. They were nearly all Saudis, a country with whom we deal all the time. We have always been good at choosing losers, although at one time we gave arms to Iraq to have them fight against Iran. This bit about leaving a young democratic government in Iraq is baloney. That government has no real power. I rather think the idea of partition is not bad but we cannot force that on Iraq. It must be their decision. Why must we always be the Deciders. We see how popular our Decider is now. Long live our Democracy but don't try to force it down the throats of other countries. Not everybody wants McDonalds.

"And don't forget that when someone makes a statement like this you can just skip everything else they say and move on to see if someone who's not a socialist nutcase has something useful to say."
- by Dave Nalle, resident control-freak nutcase

Dave is the one who said:

"Nobody gives a damn about some dead Iraqi's anyway"

So it is not surprising that he has sour grapes now that his conservative "hero's" have been thrown out of office and believes that the "socialist" democrats are taking over. To him, it's all about THE ECONOMY STUPID and yet to everyone else it was THE WAR.
As long as Dave and his ilk are able to hang onto their hard earned money by arming themselves with guns, hidden behind their fortified compounds, then fuck the rest of the world.
After all "Nobody gives a damn about some dead Iraqi's anyway"--Dave Nalle

If there was ever a need for Americans to put down the idiological banners that are a substitute for thought, and begin an open conservation, now's the time.

We can't pretend Iraq didn't happen because a bunch of idiots put us there. But also, bin Ladin very much wanted us in that war because he didn't think we'd have the stomach for it. We're on the verge of losing Afhganistan, which can't be allowed to happen.

The question of how we got there is irrelevant--forget it--it's like your boat sinks, your surrounded my sharks, and you want to sue American Express for making the reservation.

We are the world's only super power, and there was a time when people looked to America as a symbol of goodness. Sure we did stupid things and can be a contankerous, obnoxious bunch of tiddly winks, but we can recapture that stature that Bush threw away so cavalierly.

Darfur is happening right now, and we're powerless to do anything and the world will never take action. We don't have a post-cold war foreign policy, and we'll never get one as long as people hide behind these fucking stupid idiological banners of the left and right.

Haven't they caused us enough harm?

The Rest Is Silence

All these excuses as to why we have to stay in Iraq, if looked at dispassionately, are nothing more than the typical macho shithead male agression response to anything. It's about time women took over from men, who have in the past 20 millenia just spread war, famine, & misery on the entire human race. I propose that from now on we just decorticate all male babies, keep them for heavy labor, and leave the ruling to the women. At last the vast majority of women aren't inclined to start wars for egomanical gratification & to prove their macho dicks are bigger than everybody elses.

Why do the democrats have to play nice now?
Did BushCo. play nice?
Did they care what anyone thought or ask anyone's opinion?
HELL NO
I say make em pay.

If the boat is sinking and the sharks are circling I say your last phone call is to your lawyer telling him to sue the shit out of Amex.

The republicans are waiting for the democrats to rollover and be the pussies they think they are.

Pull the troops and start your investigations, impeach the President and make amends with the world.

Nancy #23

Women are no better than men.

Margaret Thatcher
Golda Meir
Madeleine Albright
Hillary Clinton

Italics my fault. You think by now I'd have figured the out.

Oh well...

Nancy, can't agree. The move into Iraq was traditional male bullshit aggressive pyscho tendencies...now we're facing a much more delicate diplomatic challenge & I'd be more than happy to put all us men in the Caribean while you women fix it.

Martin, were it only that simple. There was a time when Congress actually got things done, when you could fight like hell on the floor, but leave it there and go out for a drink later, recognizing that compromise and civility are the twin foundations of our government.

There's a big difference between being cooperative and in charge vs. being a pussy. The former doesn't purr.

The rest is silence

Dems win.

Rummy fired.

Shark sez "AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA"

============

Iraq remains a fucking disaster.

Dems inherit George W. Pandora's Box.

Bush retires to brush clearing at the "ranch".

Rummy retires to become leader of gay Boy Scout Troop.

Cheney retires to fly-fishing in Montana.

America's universe CONTINUES to go down the shit-hole.

Dems are blamed in 2008.

Shark sez "AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA"

-====




PS: Nalle tastes better with mustard.

Mark,
It was that simple for the Republicans.
You're either with us or for the terrorists.
A vote for a democrat is a vote for the terrorists.
Democrats want to cut and run.
John Kerry is against the troops.
on and on and on

The democrats should go on the offensive and bring this criminal band up on charges and parade them through the streets of Bagdad.
Then sit down with the fucking lunatics in Iran and North Korea and negotiate a deal.

Now that George Bush Sr. is back in charge, the black or white has gone to gray and things might get done if Bush kissing enough ass and humbles himself to the democratic party.

Oink like a pig GW....

Who is Gates, other than an old Bush family familiar? Wasn't he tangled up in the Iran-Contra scandal?

Martin,

On another thread you said you were ignorant of the meaning of vitriol. Here are a couple of examples:

The democrats should go on the offensive and bring this criminal band up on charges and parade them through the streets of Bagdad.

And:

Oink like a pig GW....

Look it up.

Clavos:

I think you may have just called me ignorant, so is that the meaning?

"you said you were ignorant"

Or is that hatred?

Well, anyway my little buddy, I should leave the vitrioling to Nancy I suppose, cause normally it's not my style, but what the hey....I hate sanctimonious self-righteous conservative elitist so sometimes I can't help myself.

Terribly sorry, Martin. Far be it from me to insult you. I didn't say you are ignorant, other than of the word vitriol, which you told me.

Change ignorant to unfamiliar if you prefer.

In any case, your statements I quoted are both excellent examples of vitriol.

One other thing:

I hate sanctimonious self-righteous conservative elitist

I'm guilty of all of those except sanctimonious, Martin; I'm an atheist.

But I'm most definitely self righteous, conservative, and certainly an elitist. I wouldn't have it any other way.

I guess I'll just have to ignore your hate for me.

Happy Veterans Day, MCH