Heloise, your articles, intentionally or not, are taking on a more racist tone. In the past, you've equated TAS scores with obesity, then equated obesity with income levels and minorities.
But now you say that white kids wear the sag look wirh "greater alacrity and more savvy than black kids"--WHAT??
Cinching your pants at dick level just looks tacky, and race has nothing to do with it. It's a gangsta look, and its origins are readily available, your "experts" notwithstanding.
It did originate in prison culture, and its original meaning wa simple: if you wore your pants below your ass, you were another con's "bitch."
How white kids pull off that look better than minorities is something that begs clarification.
Got any answers, Heloise?

Yes, I do. One student (I did not put this in the article) mentioned that wearing undies showing in prison meant that you were looking for a trist ala man to man.

In my book I talk about the origins of bagging clothes back in the 1970s when black men found that tight jeans just did not fit. I do not give this credit to prisoners! Baggy jeans were invented by middle class black folks...period.

I am a teacher who has been accused of being a racist. What else is new?

Heloise

My point about the white kids: the imitators, such as Eminen and Elvis often outdo those they imitate. And that it is a no-brainer to imitate.

Yes, black folks GET full credit for hip hop, the music and the clothes that go with it. And any other American-borne music style.

Enough said?

Heloise

You may be a teacher, but you are by no means an investigator. Black men in the 70's suddenly discovered jeans did not fit right?? Baggy pants and sagging are mutually exclusive. Sagging is cinching pants to, and I can't put it politely, to dick level, and its origins are what I said they are. You spoke to one student. I spoke to gangstas. That's the difference between research and hearsay.
And as much as I love the blues, jazz, rock and other "American-borne" forms of music, you can't merely shrug it off as "black people" music," True, much of it is based in African rhythms (as is all music, if you trace history to its cores), but you can also "blame" Europeans; i.e. Irish, German immigrants, as well as Latin influences, on "American" music.
But I can tell you this: imitators NEVER outdo the originals. And populist methods of teaching may explain in part while we are falling behind other nations in education score results.

First of all thank you for your comment and the comments (pro or con) that may come.

My reply:
Bagging predated sagging as a dress phenomenon. And yes I spent more than a dozen years with the AACM in Chicago. I have not only done my homework but I have lived it as well.

Denim material had never been used to make baggy jeans before 1970s. Later, sure people were wearing their pants lower. In fact in the movie "Flash dance" you notice that the dancers had this style going on already. But it was over and with tights.

At some point there must have been a convergence of styles. And more black men going to prison in the 1980s due to new drug laws and crack.

Prisoners may have started the "sagging" but they did not invent the "bagging." And the two at this time do go together.

I have written about it and documented it. Yes, I am an investigator.

Heloise

I spoke to one student true, but did not include his comments in the article. Many of these students know more gangstas than you do.

Heloise

Some of Heloise's remarks are facetious, but factual.

I was referring to the music that is considered original i.e. Jazz, jazz fusion, scat singing, rap (first done as avant garde poetry by men like Don Lee and the poets out of LA--forget their name) and later picked up and turned into a money-making machine.

They were the imitators of those poets my friend. And yes they outdid, outmade, and outblinged any literary poet I have ever met. So, your argument is weak.

Christopher Marlowe is considered more educated and in many ways The Bard's inspiration (read plaigarised his play ideas--almost) and the one he imitated...hmmm. But who gets the most accolades? Will, not Chris.

Heloise

Christopher Marlowe is considered more educated and in many ways The Bard's inspiration (read plaigarised his play ideas--almost) and the one he imitated...hmmm. But who gets the most accolades? Will, not Chris.

I was an English major. In that controversy one finds equal numbers of "experts" on each side.

Don't know much about other genres, but Jazz ("real" jazz, not the "smooth" crap) was most definitely Black music originally, and is still dominated by African Americans, though many other influences are present.

Heloise-- your research must come off the top of your head--or too many John Wayne movies. Denim was baggy in its beginnings, assuming you're definining "baggy" as "loose-fitting." It was the clothing of miners, and tight-fitting clothes were not conducive to their work.
I don't know what part of Dallas you live in, but I assure you that the sag look is not relegated to African Americans-- it's a look that is associated with the "thug" mentality,and manifested in gang culture. It is not an evolution of disco style or MC Hammer. It is, in its current form, a method by which to camouflage weapons-- same with oversized shirts.
Does that mean that all saggers are criminals? Does that mean that white people whites pull it off--or down-- better than minorities. Certainly not.
Dallas did not attempt to ban the look-- one council member railed against it, and the Council, while agreeing in principle, shelved the proposal on grounds that it might be in conflict with freedom of expression issues.
How you are privy to how many gangstas I may have talked to mystifies me, since to my knowledge, we've never met.
By the way, rap originated on the East Coast.

"They were the imitators of those poets my friend. And yes they outdid, outmade, and outblinged any literary poet I have ever met. [...]

Christopher Marlowe is considered more educated and in many ways The Bard's inspiration (read plaigarised (sic) his play ideas--almost) and the one he imitated...hmmm."

Oh boy am I going to have a field day with this one later on. Were you aware that some scholars have thought that Marlowe was Shakespeare? Shakespeare's identity remains a contentious point even today.

There was reason that Shakespeare's works are considered so influential to not just literature but also his contribution to the English language. If it weren't for him (whoever he really was!), like Chaucer, the English language wouldn't have the extensive vocabulary it does today.

That is why we remember Shakespeare. This whole notion of him ripping off Kit Marlowe? The first I've heard.

But as the immortal Ali G would say, "I digest."
(thank you R. B. Sheridan for the malaprop!)

In regards to underwear and its visibility - as long as there's no moneyboxes in sight, I couldn't care less about how little or much shows. What it is about the butt crack that is off-putting I don't understand myself! Past traumas of tradespeople, perhaps - and no, that is not a comment on class! Merely a reflection of my personal (unfortunate) experience.

I wrote the book on it, check it out. No, Marlowe was not Shakespeare.

Heloise

Denim jeans as a fashion statement, not coal miner dudes, is my point.

Rap may have started on any coast, but flowed from the free-flow style of regular poets who did open-mike nights for no money. It could be said to stem from the oral tradition of Africa as well.

I love old westerns how did you know?

Heloise

"but I assure you that the sag look is not relegated to African Americans--"

I said we have imitators: i.e. Mexicans, Chinese, and whites who wear sagging.

"it's a look that is associated with the "thug" mentality,and manifested in gang culture."

Yes, it is. But that is not why we don't like it.

"It is not an evolution of disco style or MC Hammer."

Not true. I lived and worked with the musicians from the AACM. We had master drummers from Africa who influenced the look. They wore the traditional African wide-legged pants.

Then there are the pants that are worn in the Punjab by Sikhs, one is loose and one is tight. We copied them all. But used denim. That has been documented in my book also. My group therefore invented the seventies.

They were black and musicians.

"It is, in its current form, a method by which to camouflage weapons-- same with oversized shirts."

Yes, we know, that's why schools argue it is a safety measure--to pull the pants with a belted waist.

"Does that mean that all saggers are criminals?"

Of course not. But different strokes. I love loose clothing. Black people have changed the way that America dresses with our use of loose clothing and bright colors.

"Does that mean that white people whites pull it off--or down-- better than minorities. Certainly not."

I was being facetious there. Thought y'all would catch that one, and you didn't :)

Heloise


Finally: Read the release: Dallas is attempting to ban the look of bared butts. If that means railing against the low-cut pants then so be it. I thought, before I read it, that they wanted to ban the clothes, but it is really about the buttocks showing. I don't think the vote has happened yet.

"Oh boy am I going to have a field day with this one later on. Were you aware that some scholars have thought that Marlowe was Shakespeare? Shakespeare's identity remains a contentious point even today."

We can have a nice repartee later on this one. But seriously I have made a great study of the Bard. Marlowe I want to study later. Kit is considered a greater playwright than Will, more polished.

Some of Will's work was completed after his death, hence some of the problems. But in the past two years I have read no less than 20 books, many recent scholarship, on Shakespeare and rewatched the four-hour (2003 PBS) series "In Search of Shakespeare." Then wrote about him by tracing many of his past lives, including but not limited to Abe Lincoln.

Heloise

How did I know you love old westerns? Simple. You come from a point of reference that is not rooted in any historical or cultural basis.
You've missed the point of the sag issue. It is NOT a fashion phenomenon--it is a sociopolitical statement that merely reinforces a gang mentality. It is meant to identify you with a gang-- the pattern of the boxers identify you.
You and I both know that Dallas has one of the highest violent crime rates in the US. And therein lies the issue. I'm fourscore for personal expression.
But I also know the difference between personal expression and a uniform and allying yourself with a gang.Things are what they are. And as poliically incorrect as it may sound, you just know sometimes that some things are bad news,
I have the scars to prove it.
You really need to get out more, Heloise.

"I have the scars to prove it.
You really need to get out more, Heloise." Cute.

"How did I know you love old westerns? Simple. You come from a point of reference that is not rooted in any historical or cultural basis."

That's not what my library says. I am all-culture, all the time.


"You've missed the point of the sag issue. It is NOT a fashion phenomenon..."

You've answered why it is dangerous. The more students try to be unique the more conformist they look. We (read educators) know that. Tell it to Beyonce.


..."it is a sociopolitical statement that merely reinforces a gang mentality."

Teens are rebelious. I wore a natural when straight hair was de rigueur. I generally wore it straight, then decided to wear it au natural. My mom had a fit. Was this and is this a sociopolitical statement? Did gang members sport natural hair and braids? Was it gang mentality? Is it still not popular?

A trend is something that continues to grow throughout a culture. It can also be called a meme even if it is something as mundane as style. Regardless to where the trend begins, it all ends up in the pockets of capitalist.

So much for the statement.

Heloise

correction: "it all ends up in the pockets of capitalists."

"That's not what my library says. I am all-culture, all the time."

I think this is part of the problem. You can't understand culture from books. You have to live with it.

"Some students today look like they are wearing beach clothes when they show up at the door "ready to learn." I question their readiness for book learning."

How does what you wear impede your ability to learn from a book?

Your statements reflect rather rigid thinking about behavior and appearance and a lot of your writing seems to be anexpansion on a need to make this type of connection. Perhaps you need to open up to the idea that what you see won't always tell everything you need to know about what a person is inside or what they are capable of.

Nah, actually Heloise I'm not smart enough to have opinions of my own, I steal them from smarter people. Two academics have written a book claiming to have discovered Shakespeare's identity, and I remember it making the front page of our city's newspaper.

It's got to be pretty bloody special for that to happen (living in the wasteland known as Australia).

I personally was always rooting for Marlowe, but if it ain't so, it ain't so.

"How does what you wear impede your ability to learn from a book?"

Home alone, it does not matter what you wear. You can learn wearing nothing at all. But at school or in a public setting clothes become a great negative distraction. That is the problem. Not the clothes but the reactions that they are intended to cause.

Catholic schools have always been ahead of the curve on this one. Uniforms have taken away the "look-at-me factor."

In the urban public school where I taught I would notice that on Fridays the girls would wear the most-scant clothing. Why? To get more attention lined up for the upcoming weekend.

Heloise

"Your statements reflect rather rigid thinking about behavior and appearance and a lot of your writing seems to be an expansion on a need to make this type of connection. Perhaps you need to open up to the idea that what you see won't always tell everything you need to know about what a person is inside or what they are capable of."

I read thoughtforms. I look at a person, from the inside out, not from the outside in. I am talking here about physical and social realities. Man belongs to the kingdom animalia after all, and we "ape" (read imitate) him far more than we know.

Bottom line: People are predictable.

Heloise

Heloise wrote: "That's not what my library says. I am all-culture, all the time."

Orchid wrote: "I think this is part of the problem. You can't understand culture from books. You have to live with it."

Hi Orchid. Did you know that "orchid" in medicinal terminology refers to the testicles in male gentalia?

Anyway, if you reread that comment in context you will see that one person accused me of not reading enough. So my response is that I am a voracious reader. My library and book buying are part of my tax writeoffs (itemized business deductions) when I file my taxes.

Again, if you read my statement I said that I did my homework, even lived it (that means living it), in reference to initimate association with a group of talented African and jazz musicians.


Anthropologists do field studies, yes. And I have done enough to write a couple of books on them. The man who wrote all those books about public education in New York that Oprah even made a movie about was once a teacher there. Now he is counting his money.

But does that mean he did not read a bunch of books also? No. He also read books. That's the balance. To be an anthropologist you must have the credentials/training--which I do. M.A. in sociocultural anthropology from a real university in Illinois.

I was the first and only black student (back then) to get an M.A. from that institution. In fact, because I passed the French test the first time and did not have to take the classes, I finished my degree in record time.

Heloise

Its just fashion with an attitude. The more you complain, the more they like it. If you try to make a law against it, so much the better.

My thought is what would happen if some city tried to make a law against showing underwear.
First we would have to have a legal definition of underwear.
Then maybe have a legal limit to how much underwear is acceptable to show. We could give the cops underwear measuring devices to regulate just how much sick fashion is alowed.
Then we can expand legislation to see-through blouses, plunging cleavages and don't forget socks!

Oh, the humanity!

Funny story-- a couple of saggers were stupid enough to steal an ambulance not long ago. They were nailed within minutes, obviously. But when they made a run for it, they were easily captured--hard to run and hold up your pants at the same time.
The cops couldn't quit laughing.
Their cellmates didn't return calls, I'm guessing.

That is funny Ray. But Mohjo's comment reminds me of what I learned while spending time in France: There is no obscenity law there. Translation: bared breasts on women are OK. For men too. But that is where it ends. What do they have to say about bared butts might be much the same as we say here. So, see-through clothes (on top) are okay there, and so is the scanty look. Do you see this on the streets there? Oh yes, and the commercials are x-rated compared to the ones here.

Where the line is drawn is not undies showing like the tops. But you can tell that the person's entire buttocks is out and the natural waistline down. It makes sense that the statement made is sexual. So in our puritanical country (including myself) we should have something to say about such a statement.

The other factor: sex at school, in the hallways, bathrooms, out on the open fields, vacant apartments and the list goes on of the places where administration has found kids who came to school to learn.

Heloise